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Revision as of 16:03, 23 April 2009

This article and other articles related to Kosovo are subject to article probation in the Kosovo arbitration case. If any editor makes disruptive edits, they may be banned by an administrator from this and related articles, or other reasonably related pages.

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

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Serbia This template is within the scope of WikiProject Serbia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Serbia on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SerbiaWikipedia:WikiProject SerbiaTemplate:WikiProject SerbiaSerbia Kosovo Politics of the Republic of Kosovo is part of WikiProject Kosovo, an attempt to co-ordinate articles relating to Kosovo on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Misplaced Pages visit the welcome page so as to become familiar with the guidelines. If you would like to participate, please join the project and help with our open tasks.KosovoWikipedia:WikiProject KosovoTemplate:WikiProject KosovoKosovo

image

there is no reason to use a disputed flag on this template. note that the "image" slot isn't necessarily intended to display a flag at all. You will note that {{Politics of Canada}} shows no flag, and that's not on grounds of Canada's independence being doubted by anyone. dab (𒁳) 11:26, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

It is intended for the official state coat of arms or emblem. Right?!! --Camptown (talk) 15:01, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

that's at least a possibility. In the present case, this is disputed, vs. . I suppose if you want to see a coat of arms, you'll need to create an image that shows these two side by side. dab (𒁳) 15:24, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

But if the problem is that the coat of arms of Kosovo is disputed, you should raise that issue on the talkpage related to Kosovo (or possibly Coat of arms of Kosovo); for the template Politics fo Kosovo should - for different reasons - conform with the main article about the country. And that article does not come with two disputed emblems side by side...--Camptown (talk) 17:06, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

name

this should be renamed 'Politics of the Republic of Kosovo', to separate itself from the geographical region as such. Note that only 36 countries so far (out of 190+) has given recognition to the republic. --Soman (talk) 16:45, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Request to remove the flag

Template:Politbox |align=left| Political status of Kosovo

• Declaration of independence
  • Diplomatic response
• UNSC Resolution 1244
• Kosovo status process
• Standards for Kosovo

• UNMIK · EULEX · KFOR
• International Steering Group
  • International Civilian Rep.
    • Pieter Feith
• Military of Kosovo
• Kosovo Protection Corps
• Kosovo Police Service

• Anthem of Kosovo "Europe"
• Constitution
• Provisional Institutions
  • President
    • Fatmir Sejdiu
  • Government / Prime Minister
    • Hashim Thaçi
  • Assembly / Chair
    • Jakup Krasniqi
• Foreign relations
• Political parties
• Kosovan passport
• Elections:
  • Parliamentary: 2001, 2004, 2007
  • Local: 2008
• Subdivisions of Kosovo
  • Districts
  • Municipalities

|-

| style="border-top:1px solid;font-size:80%;"| See also Portal:Politics   

• v
• t
• e

|- |} The flag of the Republic of Kosovo is not a universal flag used for Kosovo. It is the flag of a government that has unilaterally declared independence and a majority of the world has not recognized it. Either put the UN flag (since it is under UN administration), or no flag at all. --GOD OF JUSTICE 02:33, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

The image on the template is not a flag, it's a coat of arms, and the section at the top of the page (with the title "image") already gives an answer to your concerns. --Enric Naval (talk) 16:25, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and the difference is? Ok, let me rephrase GOD OF JUSTICE's statement: the insignia of the Republic of Kosovo is not universal insignia used for Kosovo. I know it looks good, people, but its simply not NPOV. --DIREKTOR 20:20, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

I can understand you saying that the COA is POV, therefore I suggest there should be a template for Politics of the Republic of Kosovo which can have the COA. However replacing the COA with that image of Kosovo with dotted boarders next to Serbia is also POV because it suggests that Kosovo is a Serbian province. The answer to this problem is a map or image of Kosovo without any other country or boarders. It should just be an image of just the territory/ region of Kosovo. Ijanderson (talk) 11:38, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree completely. I did actually (unsuccessfully) search for such an image, and I also feel that a Politics of the Republic of Kosovo template would be ok to use the CoA. --DIREKTOR 11:54, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I modified the map so that it shows only the border of Kosovo, see File:Kosovo outline.svg. — Emil J. 13:40, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

That works a lot better as far as I'm concerned... gj --DIREKTOR 13:50, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

*scratches head* hum, all european templates use a coat of arms (which is not an insignia even if you call it like that)(*). That includes Turkey, who doesn't even have an official coat, see Unofficial emblem of Turkey. There is no requirement anywhere that the coat has to be recognized universally. It's just the current coat of arms, guys, it's just like all the other templates, some people give too much importance to this stuff :P

(*) except for Template:Politics of the Isle of Man and Template:Politics of Northern Ireland (because they don't have any coat at all) and Template:Politics_of_Liechtenstein because there is not a free image of the coat. --Enric Naval (talk) 11:52, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Its not a matter of recognition, nor is it strict "policy" to use a CoA. The independence of Kosovo is fiercely disputed, both on Misplaced Pages and in the "real" world. What you have here is not just a CoA: its a symbol of the independence of Kosovo, in that it is a symbol of the (independent) Republic of Kosovo. I can't agree that we absolutely MUST use some kind of CoA in the template no matter how POV it makes the whole thing, especially since Kosovo is in many ways a special case (least of all in this small issue). --DIREKTOR 11:58, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

The coat is not a "symbol" of anything, it's the current coat of arms of this country as declared by its own government, period.

Every other politics template uses the coat, and I'm opposed to startY making exceptions just because someone might find a certain coat POV, so find a real reason for not simply using the current coat or I'll just restore it so it's in line with the other templates. --Enric Naval (talk) 12:28, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, you're right: "it's the current coat of arms of this country as declared by its own government, period.", unfortunately that country's independence (i.e. its existence) is in serious and widespread dispute. The United Nations and cca. 75% of the world's governments do not recognize it, or its symbols (by association).

In addition, the Kosovo region includes both the Republic of Kosovo and the Serbian enclaves that are not under its control in any way (no valid international legal claim, no de facto control). The symbols of the Republic of Kosovo are simply not representative of the entire region.

"...because someone might find a certain coat POV" There's nothing to "find", it is unquestionably POV as per the objective reasons I'm starting to get tired of repeating. Please read the arguments and answer them, its the only way to lead a proper discussion on the subject. --DIREKTOR 12:59, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

No, not 75% but 69% of countries did not announce recognition of Kosovo and this number is constantly decreasing. Therefore not a valid reason to remove signs of statehood. And not announcing recognition does by far not mean they do not recognize as like New Zealands Prime Minister said: "We will neither recognise nor not recognise." At the ICJ more countries support Kosovo than Serbia, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:International_recognition_of_Kosovo#Double_as_much_supporters_for_Kosovo_at_the_ICJ So your argumentation turns against you. --84.56.253.226 (talk) 11:05, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

I disagree with the removal of the CoA. The new replacement is scarcely a replacement: a) It's smaller b) It's low-quality c) It doesn't represent anything other than some lines that resemble borders. No offense to the creator, but that's hardly a good-looking and informative piece of work. The CoA should come back. --alchaemia (talk) 11:14, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Alchemia, the quality of the image is hardly an issue here. And something tells me WP:NPOV supersedes "good looks".

IP: those are irrelevant details (75% or 70%). Also, diplomatic recognition does not work the way you think. If you're not recognized, you don't exist as far as that country is concerned. Read the article. You cannot actively "not recognize" a country: you either recognize it, or you don't, simple as that. Though I applaud the PM of New Zeeland for his creativity.

DaQuirin, nobody is talking about the template itself, just about the image. See the reasons below.

As I keep saying:

• The CoA and flag of the Republic of Kosovo are NOT symbols of the entire region, as the Republic of Kosovo does not control all of Kosovo (regardless of its desired territorial extent). To use it is to ignore Kosovar Serbs in their enclaves altogether.
• The CoA and flag of the (independent) Republic of Kosovo obviously symbolize Kosovo's independence. To use them would be using images representing the independence (Albanian) POV, completely ignoring any other POV there might be on the matter. And we all know how widely and fiercely disputed Kosovo's independence is... This is textbook violation of WP:NPOV.

--DIREKTOR 12:05, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Again you fail to admit that the number is neither 75% nor 70% but less like you fail to admit that more countries are supporting Kosovo at the ICJ than serbia. And it is very important as this turns your reasoning against you when you claim that more countries oppose Kosovos independence. You may applaud New Zealands Prime Minister but you also have to admit he is right as the numbers of supporters at the ICJ proves what he said: No announcing of recognition means NOT no recognition. They just don't announce if they recognize or not. So please stop lying about numbers and facts or discussion with you makes no sense. --84.56.253.226 (talk) 14:13, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

There is no reason not to use the correct template for the politics of the Republic of Kosovo. It does not imply the international recognition of Kosovo but only reflects the topic to be dealt with. You reverted it three times without finding or even trying to find a consensus. ---DaQuirin (talk) 12:14, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

The series of articles this template serves concerns all of Kosovo, not just the Albanian Republic of Kosovo. So I'll also ask you to "please stop now!" (I can't make out whether that was a request or an order :P). Nice try, though. --DIREKTOR 12:19, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

There may be "Serb republics of Serbia" or "Croatian republics of Croatia", this is just your nationalist viewpoint. By the way, the coat of arms of Kosovo explicitly affirms the ethnic diversity of the country. Frankly speaking, your repeated reverting (introducing your POV version) is a textbook form of vandalism. You want to discuss the recognition issue but there are lots of other forums to do it. --DaQuirin (talk) 12:23, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Why or how the Republic of Kosovo chose to create its Coat of Arms is irrelevant here. It suffices that it is the CoA of the Republic of Kosovo. I also do not appreciate being labeled by some kind of ridiculous "nationalism standard" you may have. I am obviously not a Serb nationalist since I'm NOT EVEN SERBIAN. If you must know, my interest here is primarily due to the illegality of the secession. My arguments are based on the geopolitical situation and Misplaced Pages policy, they are listed and repeated many times above for your consideration, and noone's even tried to prove me wrong in the main reasons I've listed for the image swap. I hope you'll "comment on content, not the contributor", preferably answering actual arguments. --DIREKTOR 12:32, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

There was a suggestion (see above) to name the template 'Politics of the Republic of Kosovo'. Maybe this may help your concerns. Irrelevant is only your ongoing bickering here. --DaQuirin (talk) 12:35, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

"Bickering"? only because I constantly repeat myself with noone really talking about the issue at hand. If you'd like to create a new template linking only the articles that concern the politics of the Republic of Kosovo, be my guest. In its current state the template does not link only to articles which concern the "Republic", but also the entire region of Kosovo. Another nice try, not bad. --DIREKTOR 12:40, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

my interest here is primarily due to the illegality of the secession. Your starting point is a classical POV, because as everybody knows the question is open for debate. But this is not the forum to discuss the interesting topic. --DaQuirin (talk) 12:49, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

oh ffs, let me rephrase: "my interest here is primarily due to what I perceive as illegality of the secession", NOT nationalism. Good enough for ya? Also, you should probably realize that just about everyone here likely has an opinion (or Point Of View) on the Kosovo issue. The real question is whether or not the edits themselves are "POV", i.e. whether or not the edits are based on opinion or policy and fact. Because of my POV, I'm pushing towards the Serbian side. In other words, I'm trying to make a pro-independence template more neutral. If were trying to make a neutral article pro-Serbian, then you could say the edits were POV. --DIREKTOR 12:53, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I take notice of that. But anyway you should at least try to find consensus here. Don't forget that in many Serbia-related articles Kosovo is still considered as being part of the country. There is no final "justice" to be found here. A personal remark: it is truly sad that the Balkans with its fantastic people cannot leave the shadows of history. --DaQuirin (talk) 13:03, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Of course there is no justice. I'm not looking for some "ultimate solution", I'm trying to take this matter outside of it all by not representing any side in any way. Concerning your personal remark, I find it quite the cliche. There is no way to "leave out the shadows of history" when it is history that makes countries what they are. For example, if Germany was to completely "leave out the shadows of history", it would make fascist parties legal again. After all, if we put the "historical shadows" out of the way, there is no reason to deny people freedom of political expression, is there? The same could be applied to the Ustaše and Chetniks. --DIREKTOR 13:32, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

At least Germany after WWII tried to mend fences, taking some form of historic responsibility, establishing friendship with former "arch enemies", accepting new borders, starting a completely new design, based on law and compromise, today called the "European Union" ;) But it takes time, as you could add, to accept what has come out of history (and could only changed by another war). --DaQuirin (talk) 13:46, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Establishing? Accepting? :) The FRG and DDR were brutally beaten into a mold their creators desired, they had no real say in the process. Yugoslavia never had any such complete and ultimate closure. But I digress... --DIREKTOR 13:54, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

How much of Kosovo is nowadays inside the Republic of Kosovo? 90%? 95%? Shall we remove also the coat of arms of the templates of Catalonia, Turkey, France, etc because their current territories are smaller than years or centuries ago and some population was left out? What if some of its territory historically belonged to other countries? Shall we also remove those coats for POV reasons? No, no exceptions for perceived POV, we are being neutral by using the same criteria in all templates: current coat of arms (or use the flag if there is no coat). --Enric Naval (talk) 16:25, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Direktor is right about three things:

1. As far as I'm aware of, there's no requirement to use any image at all in these navigation templates. They are pretty, not indispensable. (If I'm wrong on this, I would like to read the guideline describing how a "correct template" should be).
2. An image is more than an adornment. It's part of the information we convey. As such, it must comply with our content policies (including the need to present information from a neutral point of view).
3. A coat of arms is a symbol of a state. Thus, to avoid bias, using the coat of arms of the Republic of Kosovo is only adequate for topics related exclusively to the Republic of Kosovo itself (the political institutions), and not to Kosovo in general, in all its aspects.

However, in the specific case of this navigation template, I see no problem in using the coat of arms. Although it is titled "Politics and government of Kosovo" (for consistency with our "Politics of Kosovo" entry), it is dedicated to articles related the Republic of Kosovo, the subject of many of which Serbia considers illegal. The few links to entries dealing with the issue of sovereignity, necessary to provide a proper context to the topic as a whole, do not -in my opinion- change the basic nature of the template. - Best, Ev (talk) 16:36, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Ah, but then it ought to be renamed (Template:Politics of the Republic of Kosovo) and maybe even edited to make sure it covers only the subjects related to the Republic of Kosovo. In my opinion its far simpler and, yes, neutral to just replace the lead image. We're talking about renaming and rewriting as one option, and a minor cosmetic change as the other (a change that would make it more acceptable to all sides). Of course, I'm okay with it either way... --DIREKTOR 08:26, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

But is it really necessary? We have the same - why not say correct - templates (with coat of arms) all over, we have Template:Politics of Transnistria, Template:Politics of Northern Cyprus or Template:Politics of Abkhazia and so on. It is quite a non-issue, it seems. Nobody claims that recognition issues are linked to that. Ok, we have Template:Politics of the Republic of Macedonia... Maybe you could explain for which article the template seems not fitting in your opinion. Afterwards, the question could be discussed at the relevant talkpage. --DaQuirin (talk) 10:28, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

why not say correct ? It may be just semantics, but in the absence of a clear context -reference to a clear set of parameters- different people tend to use surprisingly different criteria to define correctness. In my experience, taking special care in the use of such words tends to simplify discussions in the talk pages of articles related to the Balkans, Eastern Europe, etc. :-) Best, Ev (talk) 15:54, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

The "precedents" again... As I've stated several times earlier, Kosovo is a very special case. I don't see any "precedents" argument overruling policy. And anyway, I'm not against using CoA if the thing you're trying to represent with it corresponds. The essence of this issue is that there is no real coat of arms of the whole of Kosovo, and that there is no symbol that represents that region/territory/whatever in a non-biased manner. --DIREKTOR 12:33, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Direktor, to be honest, I don't care much about what image is used on these templates, and I would be perfectly happy using a map or no image at all. — Allow me to commend your interest for avoiding bias in this template.

There would be no real need to rename the actual template. Instead, it would be a simple matter of changing the very first link from ] to ]. The other links included deal with the Republic of Kosovo and its gestation & context. I don't see a need to remove any. — Which one(s) would you remove under those circumstances ? - Best, Ev (talk) 15:55, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Request to remove the flag

Its a very bad solution in my view. It is tough to draw the line and it'll likely turn into a matter of much debate. Not only that, but a new template for Kosovo as a whole would have to be created: all because of the image. The one's I'd remove are: Political status of Kosovo (concerns Kosovo as a whole), United Nations Security Council Resolution 1244 (concerns Kosovo as a whole), Kosovo status process (concerns Kosovo as a whole), Standards for Kosovo (concern Kosovo as a whole), UNMIK (concerns Kosovo as a whole), EULEX (concerns Kosovo as a whole), KFOR.

I'd like to stress again 1) that this is an inelegant solution I wouldn't object to but do not support (I would much rather simply have the image swapped), and 2) that while all these links I nominated do indeed concern the Republic of Kosovo, they also concern the Kosovar Serbian enclaves, and are therefore not a subject solely related to the Republic of Kosovo. A politics template only on the Republic should be devoid of general information about the region, as the two are not one and the same. Anything less is POV.

Also, thank you for your commendation Ev. Your support caries much weight and will certainly get us through the "you're a nationalist troll!!" phase of the discussion much faster. I noticed the templates when browsing through the history articles on Kosovo (such as SAP Kosovo) where Serbs continuously remove the "History of Kosovo" template and replace it with "History of Serbia". The proper template would certainly be the one on Kosovo, but with that CoA in place conflicts were bound to arise if I now suddenly replaced "Serbia" with "Kosovo". --DIREKTOR 13:27, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

"when browsing through the articles". I needed that, Direktor: it made me look at the template in the articles themselves, instead of just here.

I see your points. Although I regard the current version (with CoA) as a valid navigational template for "politics of the Republic of Kosovo", this convoluted topic can be more easily & neutrally navigated with a more comprehensive (although perhaps unorthodox) "politics of Kosovo in general" template (necessarily CoA-less). That is, the current one without the coat of arms. :-)

However, to keep everybody happy, we could consider using this CoA-less template as the standard one, and create an exact duplicate (but with CoA) to be used in some Republic of Kosovo-specific articles only (Anthem, Constitution, President, Foreign relations, post-February 2008 elections, etc).

Regarding "History of Kosovo", you're right, as I mentioned at that talk page. - Best, Ev (talk) 16:03, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

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