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Revision as of 01:15, 8 June 2009

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Copyright input request

• Allstarecho (talk · contribs)

Hi. Today's batch at WP:CP included Lazy Magnolia Brewing Company, which consisted almost entirely of text pasted from the official website and its subpages. (Admins only, I'm afraid, can view this, since it is now deleted.) When the copyright infringement was pointed out, the contributor evidently made an effort to obtain permission, but restored the text out of process while doing so, ostensibly so that the copyright holders could see the text in use. Not having received permission, he removed the single tagged section, but that left considerably more text from the site exposed (See the bottom of his talk page for some conversation about this.) Given the contributors evident misunderstanding of copyright policy (including the note in edit summary that "copyedit this section too to address any concerns.. although I'd hardly call descriptions of what a beer tastes like as being copyrightable"), I started checking the contributors other work and have found two more pastes for which he is evidently responsible (Including Grand Gulf Military State Park (Mississippi), which the contributor removed with the note "no copyright notice on that site but to appease the stalker...") and Mississippi Department of Wildlife, Fisheries and Parks, which he restored as not copyrightable, notwithstanding Mississippi's explicit claim otherwise. (The facts are not copyrightable, but the language used is.) I also found another copyright infringement which he did not place, but in an article which he split without noting the origin. There seem to be serious misunderstandings about copyright policy here, including that we can publish copyrighted text in the hopes that the owners will grant license, that beer descriptions can't be copyrighted and that we can use copyrighted text if it is not explicitly claimed. Since this contributor is taking my scrutiny personally, I would welcome other input. --Moonriddengirl 17:06, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't need other input, but thanks. Nothing to see or do here, carry on. - ALLST✰R▼ _{wuz here @} 17:17, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Unless you've now decided that beer descriptions and websites that do not explicitly claim copyright can't be used under our copyright policy, I'm afraid that I do. --Moonriddengirl 17:33, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

In the U.S., prior to the Copyright Act of 1976, published works needed an explicit copyright notice to be covered by copyright law. (Lack of a copyright notice on a print run of Houghton Mifflin's American publication of The Lord of the Rings allowed Ace Books to publish an unauthorized version of the trilogy.) After 1976, all published works were covered, regardless of whether they had a notice or not, and unpublished works were covered as well -- so whether a webiste explicitly claims copyright or not is totally irrelevant. Ed Fitzgerald _{t / c} 18:00, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

• Although Allstarecho evidently still feels harassed by my overview of his contributions, I have found copyright from diverse sources going all the way back to 2007, with Lanier High School (Jackson, Mississippi), which duplicates this copyrighted 2006 source: . And, in fact, I see he removed a Corensearchbot notice from an article he created here and was advised of copyright policies here. To boot, he still does not accept that this is in any way wrong, per edit summary: as usual, facts can't be copyrighted but whatever. I believe more input might be valuable. --Moonriddengirl 21:56, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
• You are correct in your analysis. Simply remove anything prior to 1976 (as mentioned above) that is not covered by a copyright release statement. If the editor replaces it, then block them. Black Kite 00:06, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
  • That's somewhat easier said than done, given the extensive contribution history, but I'm doing my best. :/ Meanwhile, the more I look, the more I am concerned that this contributor has shown no interest in complying with copyright policy, given the tone with which he's addressed these concerns and previous issues. His attitude doesn't seem to have changed since he was advised in September, 2007, when he said, "I'm not incorrect because I said I don't FEEL text about a public educational institution, especially one my tax dollars help pay for, is copyrighted." In other words, evidence suggests he has not been unaware of these policies, having removed a number of Corensearchbot notices as well as basically shrugging off that 2007 conversation. He seems simply to have not felt inclined to honor them, just as he removed without comment this notice of the issue and request to address it by yet another administrator on May 30th of this year. --Moonriddengirl 01:20, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

This is a serious problem of repeated, intentional copyright violations. If the user continues to upload copyright infringements, he should be immediately blocked. Meanwhile, we're going to have to plow through his contributions to remove any and all copyvios that he's added, since it's clear he won't do it himself. Any assistance would be welcome. (Moonriddengirl, do you think the damage is extensive enough to merit a checklist at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Copyright Cleanup/Contributor surveys?) – Quadell 02:43, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

• Taking MRG's assertions on trust, I agree with Quadell's conclusion. Allstarecho, your actions are out of line and you must reconsider your position or else cease contributing. No amount of flippancy routes around the absolute intolerability of copyright violation on wikipedia. --Tagishsimon (talk) 03:50, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

• I've done an initial review of Allstarecho's contributions, and the problem is in fact far worse than Moonriddengirl's description - he has been routinely and indiscriminately borrowing copyrighted content from a variety of sources for years, and considerable effort will be involved in cleaning them up. His comments demonstrate that he has a distorted understanding of how copyright functions, which is probably the root cause of this, and as such I wouldn't trust him to clean his own contributions. His actions to restore his deleted contributions and remove copyvio templates prevented the issue from being detected sooner, and are are making the cleanup twice as difficult as it needs to be, and he should be blocked at least for the duration of the cleanup. Moreover, I would not unblock him unless he promises to cease copying content from external sources altogether - I don't trust him to distinguish public domain sources from copyrighted ones with any degree of reliability. This is unfortunate because he does also contribute original content, but a necessary precaution to enable the cleanup to proceed without disruption and without new copyvios being added. Dcoetzee 04:10, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

User says he is retired, but did not go gracefully. Ed Fitzgerald _{t / c} 05:12, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I'd have to say that saddens me somewhat. I have had generally positive interactions with Allstarecho in the past. I do agree that copyright is a serious issue, and we need to tread carefully when copying text and pictures from other sources. I certainly wish he had handled this better. sigh. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 05:17, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

It'd been handled better if I hadn't been wiki-hounded all fucking day. I mean, look at my talk page history. And just to ease some people's fetish with the idea that I don't understand copyright: I do. Most of these g'damn articles were done in my wiki-infancy. Any newer ones which may be in question, I don't agree that statistical facts (dates, percentages, times and related words to explain such facts) is copyrightable.. just like a textual logo isn't copyrightable. But whatever, I'm done with the Wiki. I've had all I can stand of the wiki-hounding and wiki-stalking I got in one day - no, not even a full one day, more like the bombardment I got in the span of about 7 hours. No need to reply or try and explain any of your own interpretations of copyright to me because frankly, I don't give a shite anymore and am now, with this last post, retired.. so if you waste the finger strokes, you're just preaching to the choir. - ALLST✰R▼ _{wuz here @} 05:47, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

• Nicely done....we have pushed away ANOTHER good editor over some minor BS. Allstar was and is one of the better editors here at Misplaced Pages and it is a sad day when the good editors say "to hell with it" and walk away because of pointless minor BS and no one says a damned thing about it. Pathetic. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 06:16, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
  • Copyright isn't minor BS, and he will be back. Viridae 07:04, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
  • There's nothing good about pasting text from copyrighted sources onto Misplaced Pages. This contributor was advised years ago that this was against policy, but as recently as May 24th copied and many of its subpages onto Misplaced Pages, removing the {{copyvio}} template from the article that was placed by an administrator (not me). That he chooses to view the clean-up of this as persecution just verifies the problem to me. What are we supposed to do when it's been proven that a contributor has pasted text against policy on Misplaced Pages? Look the other way? He has ignored or rejected correction on this issue with hostility at every point I've seen. --Moonriddengirl 10:09, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
    • This kind of thing is potentially a very serious problem. I see that AllStar has been blocked, but that's just the tip of the copyright iceberg. I have seen various articles over time (by many editors) that "read like copyright violations", but how do you go about proving it? Thanks to endless sites parroting wikipedia, finding the original source can be very difficult. You take a suspicious-sounding phrase put it into Google, find hundreds of entries containing it, check each one to see if they are[REDACTED] parrots or not, and maybe you'll find the original. So you repair the article and hope that's reflected eventually in the mirroring sites. OK, that's 1 down, a few million to go. It's the proliferation that's really the problem - the same problem as with copyrighted images. Someday[REDACTED] might get sued over this kind of thing, if they haven't been already. But that's also just the tip of the iceberg. It is so incredibly easy to copy-and-paste on the internet, how can an author who publishes on the internet have any realistic expectation of it not being proliferated, regardless of his theoretical legal rights? This will be an interesting issue for the Supreme Court to tackle someday. Baseball Bugs carrots 11:12, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
      • If they ever abolish copyright, my Wiki day will be a lot more fun. :) We are trying to organize this sort of thing. Dcoetzee made a program that surveys contributions, and we've been using successfully at WP:COPYCLEAN. All true, what you say about finding the original source. It's tedious work. There are mechanical plagiarism detectors that I utilize, but they don't eliminate Wiki mirrors. Maybe someday we'll get one of our own that does. Even cutting out the mirrors we know about would simplify things enormously. --Moonriddengirl 11:25, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
        • A number of years ago, probably in the early days of the VCR, comedian Robert Klein was doing an HBO standup special. He "warned" people watching at home not to tape the show, as it was a copyright violation. He then went on to point out that that violation was on roughly the same level of illegality as "tearing a tag off your mattress". And as a practical matter, that's what the internet has done. I have seen occasional images which were protected from downloading, but generally that's not done. Youtube seems to have the right idea - you can view it but not download it (as far as I know). But text is usually written in text form rather than as an image, so technologically (though not legally) you can do anything you want with it. The courts might eventually have to settle question of whether the burden of protection is on the original poster - i.e. if he doesn't protect the text somehow, then he shouldn't complain that it gets proliferated. I suspect the law is far behind the technology on this issue. Baseball Bugs carrots 11:37, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
          • As long as we keep Misplaced Pages safe while the jurists sort it out, it's all good (from a copyright standpoint that is; the whole plagiarism thing is a different, much debated story). Personally, I think the policies in place do a very good job of demonstrating due diligence, and we've got some contributors who put a lot of time into enforcing them even though I know from past conversations that some of them actually support the abolition of intellectual property laws (or, at least, the radical overhaul and relaxation of them). --Moonriddengirl 11:45, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
      • When I first saw this thread my reaction was much like Neutral Homer's, & I almost posted something along those lines... but for some reason I sat on my hands & didn't. I'm glad of my silence: repeated copyright infringements does not do anyone any good, & AllStarEcho's best response would have been to say something like, "Oops, I did all of that early on when I didn't know any better. Sorry." And if fixing this got too stressful, take a lengthy break. Most of the regulars here have an otherwise positive opinion of AllStarEcho, & if he were to admit his mistakes, promise not to do it again, I suspect he'd be given another chance. But his ranting above about "wiki-hounding and wiki-stalking" doesn't help his case. (And before anyone thinks I'm without sin, I keep wondering when someone will start looking carefully at some of the first articles I wrote. Especially since many of them are practically identical to what I wrote 6 years ago. If that ever happens, I promise to try to handle that kind of examination with more grace.) -- llywrch (talk) 18:12, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Given that the user has extensively damaged Misplaced Pages by uploading hundreds of copyright violations over several years, which may take months of effort to clean up... given that he continues to remove warnings and templates regarding copyright... given that the user shows no remorse or inclination to change any of this behavior... given that he has said he has retired and has no interest in editing... and given that he turned his userpage into a terrifically offensive attack page against people who challenge him on any of his behavior... Given all this, I have blocked the user indefinitely. If he wants to unretire and promises not to copy-and-paste any more material from random web sources, then I will unblock him (or anyone else can). – Quadell 11:06, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

On a related note, User:Allstarecho/regularmaintained will be helpful in this cleanup. From this list, I've already identified Frank Frost as a direct copyvio of this.  Frank  |  talk  12:04, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I was a bit hasty on this one. Thanks to User:Voceditenore for pointing this out.  Frank  |  talk  13:46, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

The source of that article is this NYT piece dated 1999. Cf our article. "Over the years, cigarettes and alcohol wore Frost down but he continued to record, tour and diversify his repertory, appearing in the films Deep Blues: A Musical Pilgrimage to the Crossroads and Crossroads." NYT, "Cigarettes and alcohol wore Mr. Frost down over the years, but he continued to record, tour and diversify his repertory, appearing in the films Deep Blues and Crossroads." --Moonriddengirl 14:02, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Just out of interest are you now going to block yourself, or some other admin going to do it for the blatant and deliberate copyright violation above. You did get permission from the copyright holder to publish the above didn't you? After all there was no necessity for you to quote any of that, the links were there for anyone else to see the above text. --WebHamster 11:26, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. It's likely to be a long haul. We have a program we use at WP:COPYCLEAN (developed to clean up the problem at User:GrahamBould, I think) that lists the contributions of a user prioritized by size. Once that's run, I'll be opening an investigation tab at the copyright cleanup project to help structure investigation. All contributors most welcome. :D --Moonriddengirl 12:11, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

• Good block.  Sandstein  14:12, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Could someone with the buttons look at the header that comes up when editing Allstarecho's user & talk pages? Doesn't seem like the sort of thing that should stay in place. Athanasius • Quicumque vult 15:53, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant User:Allstarecho/Editnotice and User talk:Allstarecho/Editnotice. Don't know if these subpages stay for a blocked user or not. Athanasius • Quicumque vult 16:03, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Wow; it's true what they say: you learn something new every day. Now I know how that's done :-) Anyway, I'm not sure what should be done there or why. Can someone show a policy or precedent regarding the editnotice and whether or not it should be removed? Allstarecho is not banned, as far as I know, and I'm not certain even that would warrant deletion. I think he could return at any time and be unblocked (OK, not in that order), and I'm not sure there's a need to dig into this right now.  Frank  |  talk  17:05, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

This comes as a surprise; hadn't been watching the noticeboard in a day. If Allstarecho takes a few simple steps would support a negotiated unblock. Ball's in his court; door remains open. Durova 20:35, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

On scanning this yesterday and the day before I thought "Ok, this can't be that bad, he's a longstanding editor in...". I stand suprised.

Perhaps we should launch a sitenotice campaign to remind all editors about the copyright policy, and offer an amnesty period ("Just tell us about it now, we'll clean it up.").

Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 22:21, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Given that the primary idea is to protect Misplaced Pages, I'd heartily support both...especially since we can have reason to hope that a contributor who self-discloses means to follow policy henceforth. With this particular editor, I think I'd be uncomfortable with anything short of supervision, given that he has demonstrated contempt for copyright in his editing and in his parting shot (or one of them, anyway). Perfectly fine to despise copyright laws. Using Misplaced Pages as a forum to demonstrate that, by pasting others' text here particularly when multiple editors have advised of policy, is flatly disruptive to a dangerous degree, no matter what constructive contributions he might also have made. --Moonriddengirl 22:40, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Having slept on the matter, there's more to be said. The 'open door' is in need of oil at the hinge. Allstarecho has taken an unusually strict stand about copyright compliance regarding another editor, and Allstarecho repeated that hard line about copyright toward the other editor as recently as last week. Until yesterday Allstarecho's position seemed worthy of respect, but now it is clear he was raising the bar very high for someone he disliked, while setting it unacceptably low for himself. Diffs are available upon request. If Allstarecho changes his mind about retirement I would support him, but in addition to the usual concerns that need to be worked out with a habitual copyright violator he will need to address this double standard--which occurs on the very same topic that caused his indefinite block. Durova 15:01, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Evidently Allstarecho has requested unblocking already (and been declined). I remain concerned about his attitude towards copyright. Even after requesting unblocking, he said, "Most of it was a misunderstanding. I still don't see how statistical facts can be copyrighted. Facts are facts, period." I trust that anyone with knowledge of copyright law will recognize that there is plenty of copyrightable, creative text in such "statistical facts" as "Indian Summer Spiced Wheat Ale is a light profile American-style wheat ale spiced with Orange Peel and Coriander. The recipe uses a mix of wheat and pale barley. This beer is very lightly hopped to allow the spices to shine through. Clean fermenting yeast produce a very dry, crisp base to further accentuate the spices. The aroma has a distinct citrus note without being overly fruity", text which this contributor copied to Misplaced Pages from http://www.lazymagnolia.com/Indian_Summer.html (one of multiple pages copied from that site; and more statistical facts that can't be copyrighted from April of this year). This is only one of many, and the clean-up on this has only just been initiated at WP:COPYCLEAN. I have found duplicated text already in possibly up to a dozen articles, and I suspect that there will be much, much more. --Moonriddengirl 15:18, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Agreed: all the usual concerns apply. In addition, the issue of double standards also needs to be addressed. If you have a list I could work from to lend a hand with the cleanup, let me know how I can help. Durova 15:46, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh, please. :) Anybody and everybody welcome. There is a section open for him at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Copyright_Cleanup/Contributor_surveys#Allstarecho. Helpful instructions are on the first subpage, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Copyright Cleanup/Allstarecho. --Moonriddengirl 15:49, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Rolls up sleeves. Durova 15:53, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

*I am going to ask that everyone stop and actually read the damned page you are linking to before calling it a copyvio. In reference to the Southwest Mississippi Community College page (that Durova has tagged), this link is supposed the copyvio. Nothing on that page is copied, verbatim or near verbatim, onto Southwest Mississippi Community College. That does not a copyvio make. I think we need to actually read the pages before calling a copyvio or not nominate them at all. I also believe that in the case listed in this post, we own Allstarecho an apology for saying it was a copyvio when it wasn't. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 23:21, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

• • Obviously the wrong link was posted. That was corrected almost immediately by Durova, but missed by me. Once corrected, I see, quite clearly, the copyvio. Sadly, I must agree with the community on this one. :( Delete away. My apologizes. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 23:27, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
    • I can understand your initial confusion here, but I can't honestly support the idea that anyone who mistags something contributed by Allstarecho as a copyvio would owe him an apology. I can point out quite a bit of text that he has contributed that is. WP:AGF only works when there isn't "strong evidence to the contrary", and suspicion of his contributions is extremely reasonable at this juncture. --Moonriddengirl 23:50, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
      • Before seeing the correct link I thought an apology was needed, but after seeing the correct link, I now see that an apology is not necessary. I stuck that part with the rest above. Again, my apologizes for the confusion caused by my struck post above, I will be more cautious and check the links more than once before posting. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 00:04, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
        • Apologies for the confusion. Nominations for deletion are something I rarely do. Was having trouble with the Twinkle interface, and simultaneously copied the wrong URL by accident. Durova 04:38, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Indefinite block, reset

Given that (1) this contributor has requested unblocking several times due to the blocking conditions set by User:Quadell, "Anyone may unblock if he wants to unretire and promises not to copy and paste copyrighted content into Misplaced Pages anymore", and that further evaluation has disclosed more significant infringement than Quadell may have known and that further conversation here suggests that there may be more involved in an unblock than that simple statement and that (2) this contributor persists in asserting (as discussed above and at his talk page) that he has not violated copyright because the text he has placed can't be governed by copyright, I have reset his block and left a note on his talk page explaining why. I would request that anyone considering unblocking him do so carefully in light of the fact that he has shown no remorse or even recognition that he has violated policy and was advised of (and ignored) policy many years ago. He may say that he will not place copyrighted text on the project, but if he believes that copyright cannot protect material such as he has placed, then he cannot be trusted to comply as he can't be trusted to recognize what is copyrighted and what is not. I do not consider myself involved in spite of his personal attack on me, as my only involvement with him has been in relation to these copyright infringements. But I bring it up here anyway for others to evaluate. --Moonriddengirl 00:23, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

• I feel bad saying this because I quite like Allstarecho, but support indef, especially in light of this rather worrisome edit summary: "...I am officially retired.. as this user anyway. ; bye bye."] I don't know if that means he will create sockpuppets, whether he already has an alternate account, both, or neither and it's just another parting shot. It may be worth a CU poking around in case socks do exist and are being used. This whole mess has been rather sad. //roux   04:49, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
• Could we wait a bit before boldfacing supports or opposes? Afterward he posted FYI, as far as socks, Ive posted under my IP a few times in my life but only cuz I forgot to log in. The latest was at Talk:Autofellatio, Friday. Transparency. So you can sleep better at night knowing I'm not running around socking up the Wiki. We all know how this usually goes: an editor feels cornered, responds aggressively. Maybe doesn't even mean it and regrets it the next day, but by that time the ball is rolling and an indef converts to a siteban. Yes there are problems here: serious ones he needs to acknowledge. Wikitime can be brutal, though. Durova 05:25, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
  • Durova's right. I doubt anyone would support Allstarecho being unblocked without some preconditions, and perhaps he'll agree once he's calmed down and if he returns. AniMate 10:26, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
  • Let's build a path back with caveats that restoring someone else's copyvio edits is also problematic, intentional or not. I suggest too a bit of empathy as my wee brain recalls their home burned to ashes not too long ago and I believe they live in the US South, Mississippi, which likely is a major suckfest economicly. There may be some real life issues trimming the fuse short. This does not excuse everything but we can at least pretend that behind that heat is a passion for what they believe and that same energy that has generally been constructive here can still be directed toward our collective goals. In dominatrix-speak it's an attitude adjustment! -- Banjeboi 12:11, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
    • I support civility and empathy, but in evaluating his constructiveness, I think we need to consider what has previously not been recognized: that a number of his articles have been built with content pasted in large or small scale from other sources. He may have been a stellar vandalism fighter, but he has been working outside policy for a long time even though he had every reason to know what policy was. This can't be put down to a short fuse, I'm afraid. Further, his ongoing talkpage dialog does not seem to me to demonstrate any awareness that he has created a problem or why. --Moonriddengirl 12:40, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
      • I would refer you to Durova's comment at the top of this subsection; He was sufficiently aware of copyright issues to use it against another editors violation of policy. I have no clue as to his motives, since my knowledge of him comes from his interactions on the noticeboards, Jimbo's talkpage and AIV, and while he seemed fine (if somewhat "sparky") there the disregard - I can't think of any other phrase - for a core policy and the potential trouble for the project that might incur leaves me to feel that any return to editing will need be heavily monitored/mentored. Given his two responses in the thread I don't feel that he will willingly accept such conditions. It is a pity in respect of the good work he has done, but perhaps it would be best if the editor and WP remain estranged. LessHeard vanU (talk) 18:16, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
        • We're too willing to cut people loose, which neither addresses the problem nor helps WP:ENC. Clearly Allstar has lost his admin standing, but I'm with Durova's more, "Can he be rehabilitated?" line of query than with the calls of "Cut this cancer off". Situations where there are no signs of intentional malice or disruption call for firm kindness. -->David Shankbone 20:29, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
          • As pointed out above, he was notified of copyright policies years ago and as recently as a week ago removed without comment a note from another administrator pointing out the issue and requesting his assistance cleaning up. He has multiple times removed without comment warnings placed by Corensearchbot. These may not be signs of intentional malice, but they're troublesome. Further, Durova seems to suggest that he is familiar enough with copyright concept to hold another contributor to it, which would make it puzzling why he would not know himself that he cannot copy from newspapers and websites unless these are properly licensed or public domain. I do not say that Allstarecho cannot be rehabilitated, but I have asked that any administrator who unblocks him does so carefully in light of the circumstances and ensure that his statement that he won't infringe further recognizes what the problem is and how not to continue it. I have myself offered to supervise indef-blocked copyright problem editors and seen them go on to productive contributions, but it does take willingness and time on both sides. (I don't think that Allstarecho was ever an administrator, but perhaps I'm mistaken.) --Moonriddengirl 20:45, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
          • A massive amount of good faith has been extended to AllStarecho. If you review the dialogue on his talk page, you'll find literally hours of my time just in calmly explaining to him what the situation is. It's a long, tedious dialog which would probably take more than an hour to piece together and read coherently, and took plenty longer than that to unfold. My point in collecting this (really just the tip of the iceberg) is that I would like it to be seen that there is recognition of the value of Allstarecho's past contributions and that there is definitely the presumption that he can come back and be productive within policy. It's really up to him. I remain of the belief that he can be a net positive to the project - if he wants to be. So far, he hasn't expressed that desire.  Frank  |  talk  00:14, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
• Is now a good time to confess that I haven't taken any of my photographs? Seriously, this is a sad case and I hope everyone overlooks any recent outbursts by Allstar, and recognizes a long, productive, and honorable history. That the honor is being called into question undoubtedly raised his hackles, especially, as I suspect, he seems truly ignorant of the copyright issues involved. I'd prefer to see a more formal RFC-U, with or without his participation, with whatever has been found out. A gentle RFC-U. I think he's earned that rather than Trial by ANI. -->David Shankbone 17:26, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
  • Including, amazingly enough, the ones with yourself in them. :) I've thought pretty highly of AllStarEcho, and I don't know what to make of all this. Baseball Bugs carrots 17:38, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
    • It's helpful to have agents :) -->David Shankbone 17:43, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
      • Aha! So you outsourced the picture-taking. Just like Mathew Brady did. Sort of. Baseball Bugs carrots 17:49, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
• Whether or not to leave Allstarecho indef blocked is a tricky question because it's difficult to discern his mental state and intentions. There are a lot of people here who are motivated to see him rehabilitated - and I have seen Moonriddengirl successfully rehabilitate long-term copyright violators before - but it's an arduous process of continuous review and education, and it starts with an admission of error and a willingness to learn, which Allstarecho has unfortunately not demonstrated. I might support for the time being an article-space block - no editing of articles, but discussion pages and project pages are okay. This would have to be enforced by monitoring. Dcoetzee 22:31, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Abd moving straw poll !votes, editing and removing article talk page comments

The article cold fusion has recently been protected, and Abd (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) started a talk page straw poll to select a version to return to when the page is unprotected. He listed two versions, neither of which I thought were good reflections of what reliable sources say on the subject, and I voted for neither of them.

Kirk Shanahan commented in the poll section that the version of September 17, 2008 was his preferred version, but didn't list it in the poll as an option. On June 4, Abd removed the comment from the page as "unnecessary." (see edit summary).

Later that day, Abd replaced part of Kirk Shanahan's comment as a listed option on the poll. The option linked to the version of 19:54 September 17, 2008. I went to that version, read it, decided it was a better version (in that it was more faithful to the consensus of reliable sources, though needing some adjustment on weight) than the two previously provided options, and !voted 7 for that version and 0 for the other two versions. (Abd was asking for votes on a scale from 1-10).

Later, Abd added a fourth option to the list of options to vote for, claiming that this version from 15:48 September 18, 2008 was the one he had linked to when adding Shanahan's choice, and so it was the one I'd actually looked at and voted for, and moved my !vote to that option.

I objected in very strong terms to the move of my vote, showing with diffs that the option I voted for was linked to the version of 19:48 September 17, as anyone can see by looking at the diff of my vote, and striking my vote. Abd responded by (1) removing my struck comment leaving the vote in place on the option I hadn't voted for, (2) removing his earlier explanation that I had voted for the wrong option, (edit summary: "Woonpton appears to have accepted move of !vote,") and (3) continuing to insist that I had got it wrong and that I had actually voted for the 15:48 Sept 18 version (which wasn't even an option at the time I voted) suggesting in the edit summary that I was "confused."

I objected again to these new edits, pointing out again that it's easy for anyone to see by looking at the diff of my vote that the version I voted for is the version I said I voted for, and adding, "You do not have permission to (1)move my votes, (2) remove my comments or my !votes. (3) edit my comments. Please cease and desist." Abd then moved my vote back to the version I had originally voted for. At that point, I removed my votes from the poll entirely and went to bed.

These actions are direct violations of WP:TALKO covering editing other's comments, especially "The basic rule is: Do not strike out or delete the comments of other editors without their permission," and "Never edit someone's words to change their meaning.." There has been continuing discussion at the talk page and outside eyes would be welcome. I request that administrators review this situation and take what action seems appropriate. Woonpton (talk) 19:44, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Agree. Abd's messing with options and even votes on running polls is unacceptable. I'd like to see some more comments, though - I have a strong prior opinion on Abd. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:34, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm inclined to believe in a "good faith clueless bungling" rather than a "sinister attempts to manipulate poll" interpretation. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 20:39, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I think SheffieldSteel is likely right about the motivation in this case being above-board; ideally this could be resolved with a simple agreement from Abd not to refactor other editors' comments at the straw poll. I asked for such an agreement at User Talk:Abd, but will leave it to someone more diligent to parse the response. MastCell  20:48, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I would agree, Abd's intentions are good even if his execution is a bit dicey. He is not making any changes that truly affect the results of anything as far as I can see and he actively encourages people to correct any errors or draw his attention to them so he can fix them.

That having been said I would (and have already) discourage Abd from making any changes to the raw tallies. Post process the raw data all you want, but leave the tallies alone. --GoRight (talk) 05:50, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Just to clarify, I haven't characterized the motivation for the moving and editing of my votes and comments; my point is that it's not acceptable for anyone to do that to someone else's comments, regardless of the movitation. Woonpton (talk) 21:01, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Woonpton, my comments at Talk:Cold fusion are rather commonly deleted, it just happened today. Talk page comments are generally subject to good-faith refactoring, and taking someone to AN/I over a transient misunderstanding is a tad extreme. Comments in polls or RfCs are often shifted, deleted, or moved to some other location, where it seems it will serve the community. The goal there is consensus, and getting there efficiently, and it can often help things if adjustments are made, and it works when editors assume good faith. However, you've recently expressed an intention to expose, I'm not sure what, you won't say, some kind of nefarious plot you imagine I'm working on, so you were quite predisposed to interpret what I did as hostile or "shenanigans," as you immediately called the very first action. --Abd (talk) 23:32, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, SheffieldSteel. I don't know about "clueless," but I was definitely, for a while, quite confused, with one edit conflict with Woonpton after another. I go into some detail about what happened, how the report is overblown (the "removed" comment was already struck by the editor, not quite the same as gratuitous deletion), and why we have two competing polls, how the article got protected in the first place, the gaming of RfPP to freeze a highly controversial edit (nobody appears to accept it, not Woonpton, not the editor who made it -- at least not openly, though it's clearly the POV of the editor -- nor anyone else -- but ... this is AN/I where a third of the time nothing comes of lengthy discussion, another third, bad decisions get made quickly, with the rest being routine stuff that's quickly handled, so, my complete response is collapsed below. --Abd (talk) 20:57, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

As mentioned above, an extended comment was originally here, in a collapse box. Collapse was removed and then I was criticized for excessive length. original diff permanent link to this section with the collapse at the bottom. --Abd (talk) 04:39, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

It seems to be about time for Abd to receive a community topic ban from articles related to cold fusion. He lacks any sense of proportion and has become extremely hostile to experts in the subject like User:Kirk shanahan. The talk page has been swamped with his often completely irrelevant comments which, whether it his intention or not, drive away other contributors. He also edits other people's comments (e.g. by putting them into collapse boxes). This is unhelpful behaviour from an account that seems to have regressed to that of WP:SPA; he uses the talk page as his blog/forum/scratchpad, even suggesting that science writers like Gary Taubes should be invited to join in discussions there. Abd's machinations already seem to have driven one administrator away from WP. Abd is actively promoting cold fusion on[REDACTED] as an "emerging science", along the lines of non-scientist advocates like Steven B. Krivit and topic-banned User:JedRothwell, with whom he corresponds. If anybody has a WP:COI at the moment, it is Abd. He has become a fringe POV-pusher. This does not apply to User:Hipocrite, whom Abd seems to be trying to pull down with him. Mathsci (talk) 08:12, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

The most important point you raise is that Abd's conduct has driven away other editors from participating (such as myself). The prospect of sifting through incessant multi-kilobyte stream-of-consciousness responses is a powerful editor repellant. Any POV-pushing can be dealt with as a separate issue. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 18:09, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

While Abd's text can be daunting at times, he always makes thorough and well reasoned contributions on both the content and the process in these cases. At least that's been my experience. Don't feel obligated to even look at his comments if you don't want to. Ignoring them leaves you in the same space as would a topic ban but allows the project to continue to benefit from his efforts. --GoRight (talk) 05:52, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Boris - you have to actually be somewhere in the first place in order to be "driven away". You've never darkened that article's door let alone contributed in a way that could be regarded as a loss. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.125.16.66 (talk) 19:56, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

You can substitute "deter" for "drive away" if you wish. And please comment using your main account. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 21:20, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

The use of {{collapse top}} and {{collapse bottom}} is a good way to keep a talk page on track by making tangential discussions less visible. Jehochman 18:27, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Collapse boxes also make the material unsearchable, and often break the table of contents ("why do I keep clicking this and nothing happens?" the unsuspecting reader thinks to herself) and thus are best used sparingly. The fact that collapse boxes are so often needed is itself a sign that something has gone badly awry. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 18:32, 6 June 2009 (UTC)a

The extremely lengthy whitelisting discussion on lenr-canr.org required the removal of Abd's collapse boxes by User:Enric Naval in order to reference hidden content on the talk page. Mathsci (talk) 01:08, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, darned if he does and darned if he doesn't? You complain about the length of his posts, say you don't want to even look at them (by proposing a topic ban) then complain when he takes your issue and actively tries to address it with collapse boxes. Why is that? And SBHB complains that he doesn't want to see Abd's comments at all but then complains that he can't search through them. I find that stance a bit curious, actually. --GoRight (talk) 05:53, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Ahem, GoRight, Abd can put collapse boxes round his own contributions as much as he likes. In this case he collapsed several consecutive threads into one box, including one started by me where I discussed a new secondary source by Sheldon that I had found, downloaded through a university account and made avaliable on request at http://mathsci.free.fr This thread is about Abd playing around with other people's contributions, resulting in the unreadability of the talk page. It was undone later . Similarly this extraordinary edit to this thread was not helpful, even for Abd himself. Mathsci (talk) 07:36, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm, so it was. As Abd points out below and I was planning to do anyway, a review of the page history shows that the incident you are referring to was actually precipitated by Hipocrite when he archived an entire set of discussions, including the one that you reference above. Doing so is a normal enough activity on Hipocrite's part, I suppose, but if others disagree that the discussions are actually closed, as did Abd, it appears to me that Abd's action to covert to a set of collapse boxes was actually a good one. It keeps the talk page tidy and leaves the discussions open for those who wish to continue to engage them. The entire incident appears to be completely mundane maintenance of a busy talk page, IMHO.

You specifically point to as being the reason for your objection. Is there more to it than that one "adjustment" by Eric who labeled the change as minor. Your use of the term "undone" is not actually an accruate description of Eric's edit, IMHO, since it did not atually restore the article to a previous state but instead extended the same approach that Abd had started. Regardless, unless you have something more than this one edit by Eric to demonstrate the scope and impact of Abd's changes in this case I would have to question why you would view this as being a bannable offense. Please explain how this should even be on the radar screen of bannable offenses, maybe I have missed something. --GoRight (talk) 21:06, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

The first diff made discussion more appropriately visible, by topic, in the TOC, not less. That series of discussions had been closed, en masse, by Hipocrite (improperly -- involved editor closing discussions). Look at the edit immediately preceding the one Mathsci shows.. The claim by Hipocrite was that the discussion wasn't about improving the article. All I did was to break the closed material, covering many subsections, into a series of collapsed discussions, thus accepting, provisionally, Hipocrite's claim. Then as some of these became obviously relevant, they were uncollapsed. Anyone could have done that at any time. But Mathsci is looking for reasons to claim I should be banned, it's been obvious for a long time; but it's moot here. This report was about my behavior in an incident of misunderstanding, and the incident is resolved and moot. This discussion should really be closed. It wasn't the basis for my ban, which should be separately discussed if it's going to be. I'm banned, and whether the ban is proper or not shouldn't be confused with a farrago of other complaints. Don't beat a dead horse. I have not reviewed the other diffs, but the heaviest use of collapse at Talk Cold fusion is by other editors collapsing my discussion and that of others. --Abd (talk) 13:19, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

• To Abd: Your response dated 20:57, 5 June 2009 (UTC) is of excessive length, and I think it unreasonable to expect any administrator to read it in its entirety. Please be succinct. AGK 19:41, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, AGK. That response was quite brief, then an extended comment that explored issues surrounding the situation was summarized, and the vast bulk of it put into collapse as being peripheral to this report. It was then uncollapsed by ShortBrigadeHarvesterBoris, who then, with others, complained about walls of text. Transparent, I'm afraid, but not for here. I didn't "expect" administrators to read the extended comment unless they were interested. --Abd (talk) 13:23, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

• tl;dr. This is, however, typical of Abd when he's trying to get his way--a wall of text. We've all seen this over and over, and the history of such massive textdumps seems to indicate this one will also boil down to "Because I said so." Support permanent topicban, also, based on comments above about having driven away other editors. Support it even further because Abd thinks that cold fusion actually exists or is an 'emerging science', which betrays an understanding of science rivaled only by the folks who think that Intelligent Design is accurate in any way whatsoever. It really is time for Misplaced Pages to put its collective foot down, hard, about POV-pushing and fringe crap. //roux   19:51, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

  In constrast to your post here, Abd is NOT pushing a POV. He assiduously sticks to Misplaced Pages policies and norms in terms of content and sourcing, and as the recent Arbcom case demonstrates he takes WP:DR to heart. Given this, are you really suggesting that he should be banned because he writes long posts? Excuse me if I don't think that is in the best interests of the project. --GoRight (talk) 05:55, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

• Tell me if i have this straight: Some editor is rude, moves around other's comments in a contentious area and doesn't leave off. And why? To try to force pseudo-scientific fantasies onto an insufficiently-educated public using[REDACTED] as his megaphone. Do I have tihs right? If so, topic ban and be done. Misplaced Pages should not tolerate the, ah, how to put this nicely, the fringers to the extent that their obsessive behaviors drive away physicists and other expert users whose editing assistance is particularly needed in technical areas. Not to get into a "cult of the expert" but we are not all equally-beautiful flowers in the lord's little garden. If you don't prune the weeds every now and again, they'll choke all forms of intelligent life to death.Bali ultimate (talk) 21:25, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

  No, you do not have this "straight" if you are trying to apply that characterization to Abd. He is not rude nor is he trying to force anything on anyone. He is positing legitimate material and working to achieve consensus on it. This is what the Misplaced Pages editors are supposed to do. As for your attempt to "put this nicely", in my very humble opinion you failed. Your POV is clearly visible and if rudeness is a rationale for banning as you suggest, I hereby suggest yours. --GoRight (talk) 05:56, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Just a note to let people know that Abd has been banned from Cold fusion and its talk page for one month, unrelated (I think) to the thread. Hipocrite was also given the same restrictions. There is also a recent arbcom finding regarding Abd and long posts in the Abd/JzG case tha may be relevant here. Verbal chat 21:31, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

2.1) Abd (talk · contribs) is advised to heed good-faith feedback when handling disputes, to incorporate that feedback, and to clearly and succinctly document previous and current attempts at resolution of the dispute before escalating to the next stage of dispute resolution.

Passed 9 to 1, 16:51, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

2.2) Abd (talk · contribs) is urged to avoid needlessly prolonging disputes by excessive or repetitive pursuit of unproductive methods of dispute resolution.

Passed 9 to 0, 16:51, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

The relevant ArbCom finding. These massive walls of text are very, very clearly excessive and unproductive. //roux   01:36, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Which is, of course why he is placing large partions of his posts within collapse boxes. Isn't that an example of "heed good-faith feedback when handling disputes"? That is, of course, if one seriously wants to consider "you write too much" to actually be a legitimate "dispute". People talked. He listened and acted upon what he was told. --GoRight (talk) 06:00, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I was going to add a substantive comment but now find that WMC's bold actions have brought the problems under temporary control. I certainly endorse the topic ban of Abd so that some genuine collaboration can occur, and commend the action taken. Hopefully this will help encourage some more participation on the article. EdChem (talk) 23:49, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, folks, apparently it ain't over. I'd thought this report resolved and hadn't been back here. Now I see that my extended comment in a collapse box was opened up, and thus what was a short report, followed by a collapsed extended comment, became a "wall of text," which I'm then dinged for inflicting on admins. I put it in a collapse box precisely because it wasn't so important here, except for those who wanted more background. I'm going to delete what was in collapse and ref it to history, where editors can see it if they want. And next time, that's what I'll do, since some editors seem to place their convenience for searching above organization of text for clarity. This report isn't related to the ban that WMC declared, I'll be dealing with that separately, summary: highly improper, unnecessary (I'd already declared an article ban), punitive (I'd just questioned WMC's editing of the article, and more, but this isn't the place for it. --Abd (talk) 04:39, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

(ec)I'm not sure how, or even whether, Abd's topic ban from cold fusion will affect this review, since the notification above says that the ban was unrelated to this report, but just for the record I think it's important to point out that many of the assertions in the response above are not consistent with the record. There are many, but I will only take one assertion to rebut,as I know your time and patience are limited.

(Note, first, that this report isn't just about Abd moving and reverting and editing my edits; it's about Abd moving and reverting and refactoring "other people's edits" and the first couple of diffs are for a comment of Kirk Shanahan's that Abd first removed, then refactored and turned into a poll option, apparently without consulting with Shanahan as to whether that was what he wanted done with his edit.)

Okay, here's the one asertion in the responses above that I've chosen to rebut; it was made twice in two different messages:

Woonpton and I were in edit conflict after edit conflict as I tried to figure out what the editor wanted and to restore and undo any damage that I might have done.

I was definitely, for a while, quite confused, with one edit conflict with Woonpton after another.

This twice-made assertion is simply untrue. It took about an hour for this incident to unfold; I edited once at 03:48 and again at 04:51. During the hour between, I did not edit the page. After I registered my first objection, I went out for a walk; I wasn't even at the computer. Here's how it unfolded:

03:48 June 5 I posted a strong objection to the move of the vote, and in the same diff I struck the vote and its accompanying comment, saying I was striking it for now while I thought about what to do about it, and then I took a break and went out for a while. That post included a diff of my vote, which showed clearly that I had voted for the 19:54 Sept 17 version, as I had said, not for the 15:48 Sept 18 version Abd was claiming I had really meant to vote for. All Abd would have had to do to verify what I was saying, was click that diff. But, that's not what happened.

During the next 45-50 minutes, Abd removed my struck comment, indicated his belief that I had accepted the move, and posted a long lecture about how I had got it wrong and voted for the wrong thing. During that time, I was not editing. There were no edit conflicts between us as Abd "tried to figure out what the editor wanted and to restore and undo any damage that I might have done;" I wasn't even there.

04:51 I came back, and at that point I was, yes, outraged that my objection had gone unheeded and even disputed at length and repeatedly, and at that point I posted a stronger objection. But that was an hour after my first objection, which had been my most recent edit. Yes, I did get an edit conflict with him that second time, but just one. During that hour, the only person escalating this dispute was Abd; the only person editing the page during that hour (7 edits) was Abd. The only edit I made after that was to remove my votes. To portray this as me taking a misunderstanding and immediately escalating it into a big deal, editing so furiously as to cause constant edit conflicts, is to misrepresent what happened profoundly.

I have not edited cold fusion and had only made a couple of comments on the talk page before this incident, because I was so appalled at the disruption on the page. After this incident I had decided to unwatch the page and stay clear away, but if Abd is banned, I would be willing to participate. Woonpton (talk) 04:59, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Cutting through all this drama ... I have a question or two for you, Woonpton.

1. After all has been said and done, do you believe that the current CF talk page misrepresents your most recently stated intent relative to the !voting in any way?
2. Do you believe that it was ever Abd's intent to actively mischaracterize or misrepresent your position?

--GoRight (talk) 06:25, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

1. How could I possibly know? I have no idea what the current CF talk page looks like. When I last saw it, it was a complete mess. After our dispute, Abd moved the poll out of the section where it had been, leaving my comments orphaned, then he deleted the option that I had originally voted for, the day after he had put it in, saying that no one had voted for it so it could be eliminated, then Hippocrite started another poll, then Abd put the two different polls together into one, even though they were scored differently; it was just total wall to wall disruption. If my last comment I made there (in which I made it very clear that my withdrawal of my vote was not an expression of withdrawal of support for the version I had voted for; it was an expression of withdrawal of support for Abd's poll) is still in place where I put it, then I would say that the current talk page accurately represents my most recently stated intent, which was to boycott the poll because it was being conducted so disruptively. But I don't know if it is or not, so I couldn't answer the question even if the question weren't beside the point.

"I have no idea what the current CF talk page looks like." - This is a rather telling comment, IMHO. It does draw into question your actual motives from bringing this to WP:ANI. Regardless, I will take this response to indicate that either (a) that the page currently reflects your most recent stated desire, or (b) that you don't care enough about CF or its talk page to even bother to check. --GoRight (talk) 21:35, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

2. I have no idea, and don't care, what Abd's intent was; as I said above on the page, my purpose here was not to characterize intent, but simply to register concern about disruptive behavior. My point is that regardless of intent, he had no business deciding on his own that he knew that I really intended to vote for that other option (that I hadn't even seen!) and change my vote; he had no business editing my comments. I have always been taught that we don't do this on Misplaced Pages. At any rate, I'm a data person and have been for my entire professional career; the integrity of data is a core principle with me. When something (in this case, consensus) is being measured, I don't want someone messing with the data. It's just really that simple.Woonpton (talk) 07:01, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

"I have no idea, and don't care, what Abd's intent was ..." - Another interesting reply, IMHO. Abd has openly stated "I apologize to this editor for any offense, and for my confusion," see . Given this, are you seeking any other redress from the Administrators in this matter? If so, what is it? --GoRight (talk) 21:35, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban. Abd made an honest mistake. Moving others' comments is not forbidden; comments of mine have been moved at times on other pages to what someone considered a more appropriate place. On an unrelated page I've just put peoples' comments into collapse boxes and added a comment above another comment to try to restore its context after I had changed the text the person was commenting on (): not much different from what Abd did except that I didn't happen to make a mistake (as far as I know!): but it's a wiki: mistakes can be corrected! Abd has been making contributions to the cold fusion articles based on RS and helping to clarify the issues and negotiate consensus among other editors. It will only further skew the collective POV of editors at the cold fusion page if yet another editor is banned who is trying to enforce NPOV by ensuring that the cold fusion controversy is accurately presented in the article by properly including, among other POVs described, the significant pro-cold-fusion POV as it is expressed in reliable sources including both the scientific literature and the media. (involved editor) ☺Coppertwig (talk) 10:07, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

  On the contrary, this interchange on the talk page of User:EdChem shows that Abd is actually quite uncooperative when discussing sources, particularly with expert editors with far more RL experience. Mathsci (talk) 11:02, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

There is a mediation where such discussion is beginning. The discussion at EdChem's page was a mistake, I'd thought he was interested, and he appeared to be. At the same time he was preparing evidence against me to present here, and I'd originally gone to that page because he'd made noises to that effect elsewhere. Complaining because I withdraw from a discussion I see as probably going nowhere on a user Talk page, and apologizing for the waste of time? Really, Mathsci, your POV is showing. --Abd (talk) 13:29, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

The mediator has accepted that WMC's bans are independent of mediation. As far as point of view is concerned, until Abd learns how to use scientific sources appropriately, I welcome WMC's ban. Mathsci (talk) 23:06, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

disruptive editor back

Bulldog123 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Disruptive editor Bulldog123 is active again and making his usual disruptive/POV edits to content and threats to editors on their talk pages, including mine. Please check this out in detail as I will not get involved in edit fights with such a person, which I think WP administrators need to take care of. Thanks Hmains (talk) 21:43, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Notified Bulldog123 on his talk. This should always be done if you post about a user here. Exxolon (talk) 22:31, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Right. Telling someone they will take them to "dispute resolution" if they continue to stalk them is a "threat" my foot. Anyone can take a look at this alleged "threat:" User_talk:Hmains#Stalking. There's no issue here except User:Hmains grudges and inability to understand what WP:V means. I shouldn't even respond to this persistent immaturity exhibited by Hmains. Bulldog123 22:40, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

For the record, Hmains and Badagnani stalk by contributions list and revert basically every bold edit I make, citing "no consensus," as if you need a consensus on everything you do before editing. I'm saying maybe they or someone else I'm in an edit dispute with are canvassing people to come and try to attack my character. It's simply a method by which to "quiet me" on those pages. Look here: User_talk:Jeanne_boleyn#editing_disruption. Bulldog123 23:31, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Interesting. The last time I tried to remind a person who posted on ANI that they should notify the person they were talking about, not only was I berated for it, but not one single person ever notified the subject of the discussion. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 06:30, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

• Providing more detail. Bulldog123 previous edited and now again is editing 'fooian American' articles to remove all images of people who are not 100% 'fooian', in other words, deleting images of 'Americans of fooian descent' This is in conflict with the contents of the 'fooian American' articles themselves, which include first generation fooian Americans as well as their descendants. Bulldog123 has just done this to more than a dozen articles. Thanks for your review. Hmains (talk) 16:55, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

I do recommend we get an admin involved. It's about time. Herbert Hoover is being used as a representative American of both Swiss and German Americans, despite zero evidence to that extent and zero reliable sources even calling him a German-American. Jason Mraz is apparently both a Czech and Slovak American because of his surname. When I remove these, Hmains blindly reverts them back, citing "disruption." Bulldog123 18:26, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

• Bulldog123 removed a batch of German-American images based on "lack of evidence". I reverted because the articles for the individuals in question clearly refer to their German heritage. Schwarzkopf's article even mentioned that he had been named "Distinguished German American of the Year" and provided a link to the award. Bulldog123 removed the images again. I've now added citations to easily located sources, including the American Embassy, which states that "Notable among many German-Americans who have shaped our military to meet later challenges were John J. Pershing, whose ancestral family name was Pfoerschin, and Dwight D. Eisenhower, a descendant of Hans Nikolas Eisenhauer. 'Ike' also shared with Herbert Hoover the distinction of being one of our two Presidents of German descent." Now he's left a message on my Talk Page stating "you can't cite a 'German-American' by providing something that says "he had German ancestry." But the article itself defines German Americans as "citizens of the United States of German ancestry". I would consider any further removal of the images to be vandalism. Please put a stop to Bulldog123's disruptions. --Sift&Winnow 19:46, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Doesn't matter what the article defines it as. That's an arbitrary definition. It's a simple case of WP:V. The jump from "of German descent" to "German American" is a expressed as WP:SYNTH. Bulldog123 23:55, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

For the record, all of this is a content dispute and really has no place in WP:AN/I except as a sort of character sabotage. Bulldog123 23:56, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

• Bulldog is now disrupting the Adam Lambert article, editing against consensus, and claiming that no consensus exists where it clearly does. I'm late to this disagreement, but something needs to be done about this editor. Unitanode 04:36, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I posted a warning on Bulldog's talk about his disruption at Adam Lambert, but it was swiftly removed without explanation in a minor edit. Bulldog's entitled to do what he likes with his talk page, but he needs to know the seriousness of his disruption, and that he will be blocked if he disrupts Adam Lambert again. I posted that warning not to be malicious but to try to save him from his seemingly inevitable block.--Yolgnu (talk) 05:12, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

• I don't want to get involved in this, but I think it is worth mentioning that on Talk:Adam Lambert, I only see User:Yolgnu and User:Unitanode making the personal attacks (), accusations of bad faith (), and threats of blocking (), which appear to be more disruptive than Bulldog's actual editing. Horvat Den (talk) 06:56, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
  • I have made no personal attacks, and find it odd that you would claim so. I called an IDEA "nonsensical", so perhaps that's what you mean? Bulldog is being disruptive, and you're claiming that I am the problem. That seems odd. Just checked your diffs, and it makes even less sense than I first thought. I made no "threat" of blocking. I was -- as a relatively unbiased observer (I actually removed the "Hebrew singer" category") -- letting Bulldog know that if he kept edit-warring and editing against consensus he could be blocked. Where's the problem with that? And it is CERTAINLY not a personal attack in any way, shape, or form. Unitanode 14:04, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
• diff I'm not seeing a productive editing pattern here. — Ched :  ?  20:43, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Toolserver seems to be down, so I can't get a precise figure, but by my rough count, User:Bulldog123, who's been editing since 2005, has about 2500 edits, only about 550 of the are to articles - the majority are on talk pages and the WP-domain. It doesn't seem like this person is here to build an encyclopedia, but instead to push a PoV. Ed Fitzgerald _{t / c} 21:26, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Where in the "editing rulebook" does it say I need to edit the article mainspace in order to be a constructive editor? Bulldog123 22:31, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Hi Ed. Yep, I looked at the Soxred one, and I left a warning on talk page. Sooner or later though, I suspect an admin is going to have to have a talk with this one. Given the sensitivity of some of the topics, I'd think the sooner the better. — Ched :  ?  21:31, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Sensitivity? What does that have to do with anything? You're saying I should avoid editing "sensitive" subjects or else face blocking/banning? Bulldog123 23:00, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Let’s be clear about what Bulldog123 has done. He has removed dozens of names from ethnic-American lists, e.g., List of Hungarian Americans, List of French Americans, List of Estonian Americans, List of Danish Americans. Within the past few days, he has also engaged in wholesale removal of images from ethnic-American articles, including:

• Albanian American
• Basque-American
• Bulgarian Americans
• Croatian American
• Czech American
• Danish American
• Dutch American
• Estonian-American
• Finnish American
• French American
• German American
• Hungarian American
• Lithuanian American
• Norwegian American
• Slovak American
• Slovene Americans
• Spanish American
• Swedish American
• Swiss American
• Ukrainian American)

Each time, he has been involved in an edit war in doing so. He has failed to check the history of the involved articles and their talk pages to see what consensus about ethnic-American definitions exist, insisting that his definition is the only legitimate one. He has refused to acknowledge legitimate, reliable sources for ethnic group membership, insisting that they aren’t good enough. Example: Norman Schwarzkopf, Jr. was named the Distinguished German-American of the Year for 2006 by the German-American Heritage Foundation of the USA, yet he demands “better, sourcable examples” . He has been involved in innumerable debates about ethnic articles, with virtually no support from other editors. There is not one single constructive contribution to date among his 2000+ edits. --Sift&Winnow 21:49, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

First of all, I've known you for approximately two days, and you seem to have my whole editing history all figured out and judged. That's fascinating. Secondly, it's not Schwarzkopf that's the main problem but Hoover and Eisenhower, which I have written here: Talk:German Americans and which you have ignored. I have explained to your numerous times that you need sourced that explicitly call them German Americans, not "of German descent" or "with German fathers." You ignore it, remove my comments from your talk page, and yet deem me as "uncooperative." In other words, I only remove unsourced or poorly sourced material, User:Hmains and Winnow return them without the proper sources, often without any sources at all. Consensus is not immutable. Direct quote from: WP:CONSENSUS. It doesn't matter what "previous consensus" was. Bulldog123 22:31, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

In response to User:Bulldog123 request that I expand on my warning left on their talk page, I respond here. The areas that you are editing in are often considered sensitive topics. It is my opinion that your editing pattern is of a disruptive nature. We are here to "build" an encyclopedia, not engage in forumish discussion which often fuels the fires of discontent. I believe that many editors may have employed WP:DENY tactics to this point, but it appears that community patience is wearing thin. Let me be blunt: If you do not stop poking at topical areas, and start contributing in a constructive manner, I suspect that you will be addressing WP:BLOCK and WP:BAN issues before long. Hopefully, I have made my views clear. — Ched :  ?  22:42, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Talk about an Assume bad faith bonanza. The paradoxical irony of your comments don't go unnoticed. There's no reason for me to stop "poking around" topical areas if I feel those areas need improvement. There's no designation of how and where I should edit, and your opinion of what's constructive is not the objective opinion. I think ridding[REDACTED] of unencyclopedic material is more constructive than editing punctuation mistakes. Yet, I get complaints for not discussing my changes, and the toolserver proves the majority of my edits are to talk pages. However, after pages of discussion with stubborn editors who refuse to see anything except their way, anybody's patience runs thin. Every edit I make is supported by WP:BOLD. If something is improperly sourced or not sourced at all, I remove it. If I feel Category:Gay musicians needs to be discussed, whether it offends or not, I'll open up discussion. Bulldog123 22:52, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

• reposted from my talk: You mean conversation? No, I'd like to know in what possible way my edit to the LGBT talk page was "disruptive," since you seem to have cited it as a diff. If you're going to gang up on me without any knowledge of my editing history, and contact buddies to come and comment, I'd like a more detailed explanation. Does this have something to do with personal offense at my comment? Bulldog123 22:37, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
• The comments made in up" on you, I suggest that you start to listen and take heed of their words. My "buddies" are the collaborative editing group with which I contribute. As far as any "personal offense", My interest in that project is an attempt to establish a guideline that adheres to our MOS, and addresses specific issues which came to light in my work in the BLP project. Any other implication you wish impart with that statement, I'd simply deny comment. In other words Bulldog, I suggest you get your act together - or get gone. One way or another, this situation will be resolved. — Ched :  ?  22:59, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately, this just shows that you compeltely misunderstood the comment. It wasn't trolling in any way, it was a reference to this: WP:OCAT where it states Dedicated group-subject subcategories, such as Category:LGBT writers or Category:African American musicians, should only be created where that combination is itself recognized as a distinct and unique cultural topic in its own right. So the point was to start discussion on why Category:Gay musicians isn't considered WP:OCAT. You got offended by it, sorry, but the burden is on you to assume good faith and not make these continued baseless threats like "it will be resolved." And no, by buddies, I mean your buddies like Ed, who was clearly asked to comment here, either by you or someone else, as he seems to have no idea what any of this is about but magically supported your misunderstanding. Bulldog123 23:06, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I personally was not offended, but found it likely to be offensive to others. As far as "Ed", I don't believe I have ever made a single post to his talk page. May I ask, If your concern is truly the categories themselves, why do I see no questions posted by you at Misplaced Pages talk:Overcategorization? — Ched :  ?  23:22, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Because I wanted to bring it to the LGBT project before nominating it for deletion, seeing as there might be a reason for it I don't understand. I'm saying Ed was canvassed here by someone, not necessarily you. Bulldog123 23:36, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

If by "Ed", you're referring to me, I was not canvassed by anyone. I regularly peruse AN/I (a guilty pleasure), and, in fact, have posted here fairly regularly (for me) in the past week or so. I am not familiar with you or Ched or anyone else involved in this discussion. My conclusion that you do not appear to be a productive editor, but are here to push a specific point of view, is mine alone, arrived at by looking at your edit history. Ed Fitzgerald _{t / c} 23:57, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Okay then. In your opinion, the only way to be a productive editor is to add to[REDACTED] and not to subtract from it. I disagree. I think it you need "garbage men" so to speak to make sure[REDACTED] doesn't become a playground and maintains itself as a source of encyclopedic information. I only push what is supported by policy/guideline... which in the case of Fooian-Americans (which I assume you're referring to)... is the simple fact that as editor we can't and shouldn't be allowed to determine who is a Fooian-American and who isn't, but can only leave that up to outside references. On all those pages I edit, editors flagrantly add names and pictures of anyone they please arguing "Hey, here's a link that says they have Dutch ancestry, let's put add them to List of Dutch Americans and put their picture on Dutch Americans." It's their PoV how far back you can go before a person of Dutch ancestry becomes a Dutch American. Martin van Buren is being used as a posterchild for Dutch Americans despite "..his great-great-great-great-grandfather Cornelis had come to the New World in 1631 from the Netherlands." You could argue Van Buren potentially has more English ancestry than Dutch. So why is he being touted as a "Dutch American?" That's the problem. It's not my PoV, it's a simple matter of proper representation. On the same note, Paul Newman has been invariably on Slovak, Jewish, Hungarian, Polish, a posterchild on each because of his parent's various backgrounds. It becomes one big joke after a while. That's why we need explicit references calling them Fooian-American by reliable sources. Instead of following this (as detailed in WP:RS and WP:V), people get offended, report me to AN/I as disruptive, and then canvass others I've been in disputes with to come and argue for my block. Bulldog123 00:47, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

• I have only recently come into contact with this editor, but have had nothing but negative experiences at Adam Lambert. It's editors like this that make it less rewarding to work on Misplaced Pages. We had worked out something of a compromise at that article, and he just refuses to abide by what we've discussed and decided. Something certainly needs to be done. Unitanode 01:05, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

User:Unfrayed

Unfrayed (talk · contribs) claims to be the brother of User:Jsmith 51389, a repeatedly banned user who maintains that editors are being anti-Mormon and prejudiced for accepting as reliable the accounts of the Kansas City Star and Associated Press, which reported that he was convicted of arson in 1990. The article text in question is at Temple Lot#Rebuilt headquarters. In sensitivity to BLP, we removed the name of arsonist and other details of his conviction; they're not essential to the article. However, user thinks that this section is defamatory because it does not mention that he allegedly started the fire as a form of civil rights protest and spiritual rain dance. We have explained to each incarnation of his account that Misplaced Pages must follow reliable published sources, and that no such sources exist.

User has been very persistent over the last few years, and I think it's probable that this is the same person, not a "brother." See Category:Suspected Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of Jsmith 51389. At this point, he's just accusing people of being anti-Mormon (see his latest rant). User has repeatedly attacked me and User:Good Olfactory, so an uninvolved admin should look into this. Thank you. Cool Hand Luke 15:41, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Blocked. Nakon 16:22, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Fully endorse. I was about to block myself, but Nakon beat me to it. A user just happens to remember where Jimbo's page is after a two-year break? Combined with the rest of the evidence, that sealed it for me. Blueboy96 16:29, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Seems reasonable to me. I tried to reason with the guy and got a verbal lashing. Does seem likely he's a sock. Shereth 16:45, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

I also ixnayed his old account, Jds (talk · contribs), just in case he happens to "remember" the password for it. Blueboy96 16:58, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Unfrayed's Talk page seems to be a personal attack against an admin. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 20:08, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

I have removed the content, other than the indef block template, as it had nothing to do with requesting an unblock or any other appropriate use by a indef blocked account. To ensure the page is not misused again I reset the indef block with talkpage access denied. If they wish to be unblocked then they still have the ability to email arbcom. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:49, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Community ban for Jsmith 51389

Do we have a community ban yet for Jsmith 51389? I assume he's de facto banned already, but just in case we don't, let's make it official already. Blueboy96 17:01, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

• He's defactoed, with any sock log like that. No need to waste time making it official. Ironholds (talk) 17:54, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
• I'm with Ironholds. If Jsmith becomes a more acute source of disruption in the near future, then I would be inclined to consider officially setting a ban. AGK 19:42, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

For what it's worth...

I've been trying to assume good faith that this was the brother and not the older account holder previously multi-blocked.

The older account holder needs to remain very solidly indef blocked for recent legal threats, unless / until Mike Godwin indicates otherwise. I and presumably Mike can provide evidence in private to arbcom if anyone feels like reviewing at this level. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:47, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

For the record, the older accounts were also involved in multiple attempts at WP:OUTINGS and even threats of violence at one point. (Details can be provided upon email request.) But I agree that the de facto ban is probably sufficient right now. Good Ol’factory 09:14, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm no fan of Obama, but.......

This should serve as a warning. Please, no threats, especially to public officials. The police could arrest you! —Preceding unsigned comment added by User F203 (talk • contribs) 22:48, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Isn't making threats like this against the law or something? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jojhutton (talk • contribs) 20:58, Jun 6, 2009 (UTC)

I was about to report this myself, this dif, subsequent reversion, his userpage I think are evidence he is isn't here to contribute constructively. Soxwon (talk) 21:01, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

User blocked indefinitely, with email and talkpage editing disabled. I also took the liberty of protecting his talkpage and userspace. Given the circumstances, I'm also reporting this to the Communications Committee. Blueboy96 21:05, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Busted Soxwon (talk) 21:10, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm also emailing Godwin as well. Blueboy96 21:18, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

If someone can run a CU, please email me the ip address and I'll contact the FBI. I have reported others like this in the past and they've been thankful. Toddst1 (talk) 21:51, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

On it. — Rlevse • Talk • 21:59, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Great--and any way you could block the IP as well just in case this bottom-feeder manages to get around the autoblock? Blueboy96 22:13, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

I've reported it. Yes, they were very interested. Admini actions carried out. — Rlevse • Talk • 22:18, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Ooh. I see waterbaording in someone's future. And I don't mean surfing. HalfShadow 22:19, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Don't forget to notify the US Secret Service; they're more likely to be concerned with this than the FBI. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 00:41, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm sure the FBI has their number, lol. ;) couln't resist. Heironymous Rowe (talk) 00:49, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Actually, it's prolly some bored 12 yr old dip$%!#, whose parents are going to get a suprising visit, lmfao. Whatcha wanna bet he cant sit down for a week?Heironymous Rowe (talk) 00:52, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

According to User talk:70.26.6.129, 12 yrs old seems to be correct. And the fact that the FBI will be checking into it seems to have rattled him. --auburnpilot talk 01:33, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, it's a moot point since the IP is most likely just some juvenile, but in the future it's a good idea to check the IP's geolocation and report it to the local national-level authorities- the IP in question happens to be Canadian. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 01:48, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Looking more into it, I believe this is the same user as !1029qpwoalskzmxn (talk · contribs), Studentsrulendestroywiki (talk · contribs) and the IP 76.69.90.142 (talk · contribs). Note both 70.26.6.129 and 76.69.90.142 are Toronto area Bell Canada IPs. --auburnpilot talk 01:49, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Wow, lucky guess or what? That or they saw my post here. Anyway, someone gonna learn a serious lesson from this, at least we can hope. Heironymous Rowe (talk) 01:54, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Someone may want to start filing an abuse report and contacting this ISP to try to get the ISP to prevent this kid from accessing Misplaced Pages (or probably anything else on the Internet for that matter). MuZemike 01:56, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Godwin's probably gonna be on this on Monday, if not earlier ... 10 to 1 Bell Canada and the RCMP will listen to him more than us. Blueboy96 03:33, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

If it was a bored 12-year-old, I have a hunch he's considerably less bored at this point. Vague threats of violence are one thing, but an overt threat like this one needs to be turned over to the authorities. Which it was. Jolly good. Baseball Bugs carrots 03:43, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

And to answer the original question - Yes, it is illegal. It's a federal crime. Baseball Bugs carrots 03:44, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Okay Admins. I am actually the same person as 70.26.6.129 and asdfzxcvqwerty and am here to deeply apologize for my actions. Please don't report me anymore to any authorities and please tell the authorities that there are no issue from 70.26.6.129. I actually like Barack Obama as a president and think he is doing a fantastic job and I was no where even close to being serious when I made the threat. Please tell the authorities that the person in the IP has no serious intentions. Also, I wish to have my IP hard blocked idenfinetely so that I can never disrupt[REDACTED] ever again. sometimes my IP changes so please do a block in a way that will permanetely disallow me from editing[REDACTED] (I still want to right to READ page since I USE[REDACTED] for many assignments mostly geography and science)

To Sum it up I am requesting 2 things: 1. for an admin preferbally the one who reported me to tell the authorities that the IP has no serious intention 2. for my IP or IP range to be hard blocked permanetely so that I can never edit[REDACTED] ever again. but not blocked from reading pages I made a terrible mistake and regret it strongly. I learned a valuable lesson, which is not to make threats that cross the line and to be behave over the internet. Please consider about the two requests above. Thank You.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Brave warrior (talk • contribs) 11:26, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Way too late for not getting reported. Threatening to kill someone, esp a head of state, is not a matter to make jokes about. — Rlevse • Talk • 11:31, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes I realise that now. Death threats are taken seriously over the internet. But I have 0 serious intentions when I made that horrible threat. So please tell the authorities that i have no intentions. I honestely don't, don't any of you admins believe that i don't? I am only a kid, I don't even have a gun.Please don't make any of those authorities like FBI or other police coming to my house! It will have a negative mental impact on me for years to come.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Brave warrior (talk • contribs) 11:35, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Who says WP can't be educational. Someone here seems to have learned something today. :) --WebHamster 11:36, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Interesting that the editor now posting as Brave warrior has a previous history and was unblocked in January - the block was for abusing multiple accounts. EdChem (talk) 11:45, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

This might turn out to be the mother of all "Plaxicos". And as an American, I say he should be turned in, because while his threat might have been false, it's also possible that his claim it was false, is false. Take no chances. Baseball Bugs carrots 12:34, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

The above retort is absolutely disengenuous as according to the edit record, this is a insidiuous and persistent troll with a previous record of making disclaiming statements. Despite the country of origin, there should be no question that the authorities (police and legal) should be involved, especially when there is a threat made to use violence. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 13:35, 7 June 2009 (UTC).

Yes, as I said, the authorities should be notified. If it takes the threat of prison to make that guy clean up his act, then so be it. Baseball Bugs carrots 13:49, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I think he came here specifically to shoot himself in the leg on purpose (or have some gullible admin do the shooting). I'm not sure if "Plaxico" applies here as he showed no intent on defending himself. MuZemike 17:16, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Was having the cops drop by also a part of his master plan? Baseball Bugs carrots 17:36, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, since this user was kind enough to admit his crime, I have reblocked him with email and talkpage editing disabled, and protected his userspace. I'm also adding an entry for him at WP:LOBU, as it's pretty safe to say that no administrator will unblock this user who doesn't want to be immediately desysopped. El fin. Blueboy96 13:55, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

This user has numerous aliases and sock accounts, which one is he being listed under? FWiW Bzuk (talk) 14:02, 7 June 2009 (UTC).

Good call on reporting it, and the IP address. If this *was* some kid, they will have Secret Service speaking to their parents. You'd be frankly surprised how many of these the Secret Services does in fact run down. I chatted once with a SS agent that I met in passing, for 5-10 minutes, and actually asked--do you guys actually run down a lot of the "BS" level complaints, or that appear to be? And he said yes, it's rare for one to not be looked at, since how do you know if its BS? He actually made the point that even he'd (and this was a SS agent in Connecticut, that had only twice ever even seen a President in person) gotten kids "severely grounded". Too funny, and good call reported. rootology (C)(T) 18:23, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

The Secret Service runs down every threat to the President that they hear about. As the agent pointed out, you don't know which ones are just cranks and people blowing off steam unless you run them all down. Indeed, every one of them sees a personal visit at some point, even if it's clear from the initial investigation that it wasn't anything serious--they want to make sure the person knows they weren't amused. (It also lets them do a brief evaluation of the subject to see if s/he may have a mental health issue that means they need to take the "crank" threat more seriously...) rdfox 76 (talk) 18:42, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

This user's Canadian, so more than likely it'll be the RCMP knocking on his door sometime in the next few days. In any event, I wouldn't want to be there when his parents find out why Bell Canada nuked their Internet. Blueboy96 18:55, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I would, it'd be hilarious! ╟─TreasuryTag►Africa, Asia and the UN─╢ 18:59, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

And I'm guessing that Mountie won't exactly be grinning like Dudley Do-Right. If the Mounties show up at that character's door, all the better. "Scared straight", so to speak. Baseball Bugs carrots 19:05, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

People like this guy are why the rest of us hate Toronto. HalfShadow 19:17, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

As opposed to the theory that 'threats' like this are made because the US is the most hated country in the world? --WebHamster 19:21, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

The biggest and strongest is always hated. Instead of the U.S., you could hate Finland, but what would be the point? That would be like protesting the slaughtering of cattle and potatoes, and instead of taking it to McDonald's, you picket White Castle. Baseball Bugs carrots 19:26, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

<< OK, this isn't going anywhere, so I'm closing per DFTT. ╟─TreasuryTag►prorogation─╢ 19:29, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Unusual move

I just happened to notice the following entry in the move log:

17:51, June 6, 2009 Solisdaniel moved User talk:Solisdaniel to User talk:Pleasedeleteme

I assume this move should be undone, but I wanted to check here to make sure first.

Thanks, ThaddeusB (talk) 21:57, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Moved back and left the user a message. Thanks, –xeno 22:53, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Rangeblock on 90.193.250.*

I've just issued my first ever rangeblock, to 90.193.250.0/24. This range of 256 IP addresses appears to be used only by a long term vandal who claims there is a cure for various incurable diseases, such as Alzheimer's disease, and also is in denial about the death of Wendy Richards. I've blocked for 48 hours, but my intention is to increase block lengths by the usual doubling scale on each repeat of the vandalism, unless I see evidence of collateral damage. I'm aware that rangeblocks are usually for short periods, so am I out of line on this? How do I check the range for collateral damage? I can use the CIDR user interface gadget, but it doesn't tell me which IP has edited recently, and it also doesn't work with the classic skin, so it's inconvenient for me.-gadfium 00:15, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

The CIDR gadget is your best option - it's not too difficult to see recent edits from this range. Alternatively, see Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet_investigations#90.193.250.0.2F24. -- zzuuzz 00:29, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Looks okay to me. WHOIS seems to suggest a wider range, but if the vandal's not active outside that /24... (quick look on my part found nothing to suggest that, but you're more familiar with this one). – Luna Santin (talk) 00:37, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Checkuser indicates no obvious collateral damage on 90.193.250.0/24. In the future, you can ask for a quick check at Misplaced Pages:SPI#Quick CheckUser requests. Thanks. -- Avi (talk) 05:47, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Backlog at UAA

Could an administrator take a look at UAA? There's quite an impressive backlog there. Thanks. -t'shael 00:26, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Molana yaqoob alvi birotvi

Molana yaqoob alvi birotvi is apparently a biography. It was on the LGBT radar because the gay is amongst the many items within the various texts. It's quite a mess but is it art, a hoax or a DYK wet dream come true? -- Banjeboi 08:59, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

"His carrier as a teacher"? This magnificant effort needs preserving in all its tattered glory - on Uncyclopedia perhaps? LessHeard vanU (talk) 09:27, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

You missed the part about how his elementary school training occurred on the Nimitz. Baseball Bugs carrots 09:31, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I didn't risk my braincells by actually reading it - I'm an admin; we don't do reading of content - but just looked at the section headers. LessHeard vanU (talk) 09:39, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Odd that the editor who created this article, User:Paharhikhan also created the user page for User:Syedbasit raza. Paharhikhan also created, in his/her first edit, Obaidullah Alvi, and later Syed Fazal Hussain Shah, both of which need wikification as badly as Molana yaqoob alvi birotvi. The syle of these articles reminds me of someone else, but I can't put my finger on it. Ed Fitzgerald _{t / c} 09:47, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Well it appears to be a recreation of Molana Yaqoob Alvi Birotvi which has been deleted twice. I'd suggest someone who's not half asleep take a look at the creators other contributions. Circle Bakote and Dhundi-Kairali language have both been tagged for cleanup since '07. I found this gem in Dhundi-Kairali article about Molana: He is also a wrestler and broke the legs of many locals in his prime. Yeah, there's a lot of cleanup here. AniMate 09:54, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I have deleted and salted the subject article. I shall take a look at the other articles mentioned and review Paharhikhan's contrib history. LessHeard vanU (talk) 10:06, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I have deleted some as WP:CSD#A7, and templated others for improvement where there appears to be some claim of notability or supporting sources (some are borderline, but if Imran Khan's political party is advertising on the site I am inclined to consider it legitimate). I feel Parahinkhan is a good faith contributor, but whose grasp of WP practices is as shaky but enthusiastic as his English. LessHeard vanU (talk) 10:24, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Obaidullah Alvi is another sneaky recreation, this time of Mohammed Obaidullah Alvi which was deleted in 2007 after this AfD. I'm tempted to delete it myself, but insomnia has my brain working at about half its normal speed, so not 100% on my judgement. AniMate 10:34, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Good find. I shall take a look at the AfD discussion, since the current article does give a claim of some notability (books published, newspapers created) which was included in the deleted version. The deleted article has an awful lot of "family history" of non notable people, so I will review the discussion to see where the problems were. LessHeard vanU (talk) 10:43, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

(ec) After comparing the two article side by side, other than an introductory paragraph, they're mostly identical. An easy G4, though this bears some looking into as apparently the subject is a relatively active editor named User:Molvi333. Perhaps an SPI is in order. AniMate 10:46, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

BTW, as with all of my admin actions, feel free to revert without asking me first. I'm not particularly fussy about that kind of thing. AniMate 10:51, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

(ec)I'm content to leave it up for a new AfD. The AfD was for an article which was only a family tree, and had the above articles predecessor added to it when it was WP:Coatracked to include the family history being discussed at AfD. While it may be troubling that an editor is cleverly attempting to place family history - the discussed article is a self bio, it appears - on WP it may still be a cultural misunderstanding of notability than disruption. Under the circumstances, it may be that a fresh AfD needs to be run on Obaidullah Alvi to determine whether the claims of notability are sufficient, or whether they need to be verified. LessHeard vanU (talk) 10:53, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I am not going to undelete. If another admin wants to review and decide there should be an AfD then fine, but I am also not wedded to my opinions on this matter. LessHeard vanU (talk) 10:56, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm just concerned because it looks like multiple accounts are being used and the recreation of these articles with slightly different names or capitalization is deliberate. I'd feel much more comfortable with an admin or user with some in depth knowledge of the Middle East weighing in. I'll do some more investigating soon. AniMate 11:08, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

• If they insist on creating articles here, it might help their case, however slightly, if they learn to use our language instead of apparently slapping words together in a manner that 'looks nice'. 16:48, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I've looked at Circle Bakote none of the references had the word "circle bakote" in them. The words "Circle Bakote" get no hits on google books, and precious view on google. There is a small village that i can confirm exists in NWF Pakistan called "Bakote" and our article on this village Bakot albiet written by someone with a shaky grasp of english, says "Union Council Bakote is historical place in Circle Bakote where four Muslim sains are laying rest including." Since Circle Bakote is completely unverifiable (and likely a hoax) I'm redirecting to Bakot.Bali ultimate (talk) 20:37, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Having looked just a little further, it appears that Bakot (i've now confirmed that's the prefered spelling in English) is in Kashmir, which obviously has various nationalist issues at play which should make iron-clad sourcing for claims even more important than usual.Bali ultimate (talk) 20:41, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to drop a note on WikiProject Pakistan as they should be more familiar with the notability of these subjects. AniMate 22:51, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Signature spam

• Vojvodaen (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has a link to their own wiki in their signature.
• istorijska-biblioteka.wikidot.com: Linksearch en (insource) - meta - de - fr - simple - wikt:en - wikt:fr • Spamcheck • MER-C X-wiki • gs • Reports: Links on en - COIBot - COIBot-Local • Discussions: tracked - advanced - RSN • COIBot-Link, Local, & XWiki Reports - Misplaced Pages: en - fr - de • Google: search • meta • Domain: domaintools • AboutUs.com

There's currently 115 instances of it.--Otterathome (talk) 13:37, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

• I didn't see where anyone has asked him on his talk page to stop. That would be the first thing to do (hint), instead of ANI. They probably are just unaware they should not use their signature that way. --64.85.216.245 (talk) 13:56, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

It's posted here in case any users feel that removing/blacklisting the 100+ links would be appropriate.--Otterathome (talk) 14:22, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

The problem with the spam blacklist is that it will then prevent anyone from editing those pages with the links until the links get removed - and it's not always clear what link is the problem or where on the page it is. Try talking to him about it, as the IP recommended; if he removes the link, it shouldn't be an issue from here on. Hersfold 19:42, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

The existing links should be ok but they could also be AWB'd out if someone felt the need. I left a follow up message for the user informing of this discussion. –xeno 19:46, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Sock war?

Hello, kind editors. I have just stumbled into a curious situation. After what I thought was a minor clean-up of the Illegal immigration to the United States article a couple editors began accusing each other on my talk page of being socks of banned users. This doesn't particularly bother me, but I do not wish to host any sock wars.... Any thoughts? Wikidemon (talk) 15:17, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Wrap the section with {{discussion top}} and in the closing, kindly ask them to discuss the issue at the article talk page or file an SPI if they feel the need. –xeno 19:47, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, that's a good idea. I'll do that. Wikidemon (talk) 20:55, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Behavior of User:Jezhotwells

I’m concerned about the civility of the actions of User:Jezhotwells relating to Eurovision Song Contest articles. WikiProject Eurovision had two similar articles nominated for Good Article status that would have become the ninth and tenth such Good Articles for the project. They had been awaiting reviews for more than a month, and an hour or so before Jezhotwells decided to take them on, an ip adds a comment stating that the reviewer should check the reliability of two of the sources . When the review started, Jezhotwells decided to quickfail and claimed that the sites are blogs and therefore unreliable . I came online right after he failed the first and sent him a message asking for clarification of why he would fail and pleaded for him to discuss this before he take anymore action. . In what I feel to be a gross violation of assume good faith, he quick-failed the other article. From then on, a discussion began where I was lectured on what blogs and reliable sources are and a thread at the reliable sources noticeboard was started. Though there was an overall lack of participation in the discussion, two outside editors responded. One told me that Jezhotwell’s actions were uncivil and I should try a reassessment with another editor, and another told me that the only problem he sees with the sources is that they may be overused and that I should diversify them before GA status is granted. . The uncivil behavior continued when Jezhotwells informed me that he will reassess all of the other GAs of the project to make sure that the sources are reliable . This action is highly POV as there is still no consensus that the sources are unreliable and it is highly unlikely that the many GA reviewers who reviewed the other Eurovision articles just made a mistake about the sources. I was just going to let this whole thing go and submit the two recent articles for reassessment, but the incivility continued this morning when he decided to tag several Eurovision articles with unreliable reference tags and then opened a reassessment on an article and decided to delist as a GA within minutes of starting the reassessment using his personal belief that the sites are blogs .

I ask administrators and other editors to look into this matter and determine if the actions of Jezhotwells were civil and determine if he assumed good faith. Most troubling to me is that after waiting so long for these articles to be reviewed, he failed them without even inquiring about the reliability of the sources, without asking for a second opinion, and without waiting for any response from the editor as is routine. I don’t see why they could not have been put on hold while a discussion of the reliability took place. He had a preexisting view on the subject and is carrying on with his edits as if he is right even though there is no consensus on the matter. I find it difficult and frustrating to edit and improve Eurovision pages knowing that he will be there to make a scene about the sources, or request a reassessment and motion to delist based on his personal beliefs once again. What use is having these two recent articles reassessed as he mentioned if he will just personally reassess them later and fail them once again? What’s to stop him? He is going around telling me on a dozen or so articles that I have the burden of proof (which i do) yet there is a rough consensus that the sources are in fact reliable (also see here for a project-wide discussion on the reliability of Eurovision sources. His editing is disruptive and must stop. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 16:12, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Disclosure: I've worked with Grk1011/Stephen on Eurovision articles.

Are OikoTimes and ESCToday blogs? They both have a long history of being regarded as WP:RS in Eurovision articles, and don't seem to me to be "blogs" - readers can comment on the main article, but that's possible at mainstream newspapers' websites too.

No comment on Jezhotwells's behaviour as I'm unfamiliar with this incident.

Cheers, This flag once was red_deeds 16:22, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Have you tried taking this to Wikiquette alerts, yet? If not, I recommend going there, first. Otherwise, I do not see an immediate need for admin action. MuZemike 16:24, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Or, just looking at the second comment, the reliable sources noticeboard? MuZemike 16:25, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

If you read carefully, I said we already had a thread on the reliable sources noticeboard ;) I'll copy paste the whole discussion to wikiquette alerts then, please put further responses here. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 16:26, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh. Sorry :) MuZemike 16:31, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

User:Petermopar

Can someone please take a look at the contributions of User:Petermopar?

• Petermopar (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

He seems to be rapidly creating nonsense articles and/or articles on non-notable subjects. Some have been deleted already, apparently, or marked for speedy deletion, but I'm not sure how some of the others should be handled. Perhaps an admin could help out. Thanks. Peacock (talk) 18:07, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Cleaned it up and will keep an eye. --John (talk) 18:23, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

User:Falastine fee Qalby

Krisztina Morvai is a far-right Hungarian politician who has recently been noted internationally for some utterly antisemitic outbursts and has a long history of smearing political opponents by calling them "zionists". Reminding of these facts was obvioulsy too much for Falastine fee Qalby (talk · contribs), who removed them altogether under the thinnest of pretextes: , . I take offense at a person with a - to put it mildly - strongly pro-Arab wikiagenda to rush at the defence of that great pro-Palestinian, Mrs. Morvai (http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/02/02/the-anti-israel-neo-fascists-of-hungary/). It sure pushes the boundaries of POV a bit too far - or does it?--RCS (talk) 20:55, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

The user has now started an edit-war , . --RCS (talk) 21:07, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

This is a content dispute with you pushing to place in inflammatory material. It has no place here on AN/I, whining about it won't help you here. Who rushes to the AN/I for dispute that started less than an hour ago? -Falastine fee Qalby (talk) 21:09, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

The censorship you want to exercice speaks for itself. By the way, you have started an edit-war and are on the verge of 3RR and PA. --RCS (talk) 21:15, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

And now this!!!! How disruptive can an editor get? This is the silliest request for deletion of the year (already).--RCS (talk) 21:18, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Both of you, enough with the fighting in the War Room. Anyways, in regards to She is also a rabid antisemite with a huge problem with circumcision → If that is not a blatant BLP violation, then I don't know what is. Such removal on the talk page is acceptable under WP:BLP and WP:NOTFORUM. MuZemike 21:21, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

He placed it back and he will continue to do so if someone doesn't step in. -Falastine fee Qalby (talk) 21:34, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

(ec)You call me the pov pusher, yet your only edits to the article is to label this person as an antisemite. Your accusation is ironic, clearly you are the one with the agenda. -Falastine fee Qalby (talk) 21:23, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I nominated it for deletion because you and your likes have only one purpose on that article, and that is to post libel. That's all.-Falastine fee Qalby (talk) 21:25, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Saying that a living person is antisemitic, conspirationist and sexist based on an inference on the source given is not only original research but also a BLP violation. MuZemike 21:38, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I have to leave now so please do what you can. RCS is adamant about keeping his blatant POV version. -Falastine fee Qalby (talk) 21:41, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I have changed the wording on the talk page section (see ) and have tried to remove the BLP-violating material and what was not supported by the sources (see ). Hopefully, both sides will be satisfied with this. MuZemike 21:51, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

(<-)Please review the definition of Category:Antisemitism. It is not Category:Antisemitic people, which was deleted years ago. This relates to the discussion of antisemitism; which is why the ADL is in this category too. Part of Ms. Morvai's notability is specifically how her statements are received within the context of the discussion of antisemitism in Europe, so the category is appropriate, and not a BLP violation, as it is reliably and verifiably sourced. -- Avi (talk) 00:47, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Radeksz and Jacurek

Can someone explain to User:Jacurek, User:Radeksz and any of the friends that turn-up, what our rollback policy is. I removed this from User:Jacurek for violating its use, a user who shouldn't have had it in any case, being a hard-core edit warrior who's previously been blocked for proxying. One of them is now accusing me of "admin abuse" with innuendo about anti-Polishness (a personal attack I don't want to have to remove again), so it's probably best if someone else takes it over now. Cheers, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 01:14, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

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