Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 04:44, 26 June 2009

Biography: Military C‑class

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography C This article has been rated as C-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. This article is supported by the military biography work group.

India: Punjab C‑class Low‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject India, which aims to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of India-related topics. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.IndiaWikipedia:WikiProject IndiaTemplate:WikiProject IndiaIndia C This article has been rated as C-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by WikiProject Punjab (India) (assessed as Mid-importance).

Orphaned and unsigned remark

Some of the news items indicate that General Labh Singh was the second (and NOT first) cheif general of Khalistan Commando Force. If this is true then please provide any references which could indicate that Mr. Manvir Singh Chehru was the first General of this force and Labh Singh became 'Cheif General" afterwards only.

I have reverted the main article to its earlier version because of following reasons

Respected Daulakh,

Please remember that some fanatics like you have also started calling Shahid Bhagat Singh a terrorist. The way you have edited this biography, indicates your hatred for Khalistani leaders. Please note that Misplaced Pages is not a place to propagate your own hatred and suppress history.

• 1. Indian Government's calling KCF a terror outfit does not mean that it survived during 1980s and 1990s without public support.
• 2. The way you removed his involvement in the famous battle of Operation Blue Star from "Infobox Military Person" indicates that you want to suppress the true history and you want to eliminate these history pages from the world.
• 3. Labh Singh's attacking Director General of Police during full day light inside fortified Punjab Armed Police headquarters automatically makes it a daring act regardless of it being NPOV or POV. But you have edited it so that it look like very normal terrorist act, for example no one can ever call Shahid Bhagat Singh's bomb explosions inside Parliament building as a mere terrorist act.
• 4. You changed sentence Indian Security forces claimed that he was killed in an exchange of fire with the police to "he was killed.....". His way of killing is a dispute between Sikhs Hardliners and Indian Security forces. Your edition makes it POV.
• 5. Why I used his name as "General Labh Singh" was because he was famously known by this name. Please note that I did not use word "General" with his predecessor "Manbir Singh Chaheru", because he was famously known with this name only.
• 6. I agree with you that the title 'General' was a self-proclaimed title. Only regular armies can use the title, hence I will keep his name without this title in most of the text. And I refer to him as a leader of this organization.
• 7. Regarding you "Revision as of 20:38, 31 March 2008" - (Removed a lot of stuff that looks like the terror group's manual on organizational hierarchy). I have coped this information from Khalistan Commando Force's main page on Misplaced Pages. Since this structure was his creation hence it is required to be added in his biography. I believe you couldn't digest his being "undisputed head" word. But, please note that truth is truth.
• 8. Regarding your "Revision as of 20:40, 31 March 2008", where you removed his father-in-law's suicide because of police harassment, it appears that you simply want to hide Indian security force's criminal acts from Misplaced Pages community. And you want to show his family's migration to foreign country as a routine event. Please note that his father-in-law's suicide because of his being ‘mercilessly’ beaten up by the Punjab Police was published in famous Indian newspaper, i.e. "The tribune", i.e. ]. The provided references which you had deleted were from the same newpaper. If you are an Indian then you definitely know what "The tribune" is. Please stop this vandalism/ cruelty on Misplaced Pages database.

Because of all these reasons, I am forced to revert it to its original formSingh6 (talk) 21:16, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Reasons for reverts

• He is self-appointed. The KCF is not a real military outfit. It is a rag-tag team of militants. As such, anyone who calls himself a "General" of such a outfit has delusions of grandeur and suffers from megalomania. At any rate, he IS obviously self-appointed since no real authority seems to have appointed him.
• Regarding "This bank robbery was biggest of other similar actions which Sikh militants did to weaken the government and to use Indian Money against Indian Security forces." -- This is completely unsubstantiated. Furthermore, it is completely unnecessary and useless, and also OR. There is nothing to suggest that the militants did it to "weaken the government". It's enough to mention that they robbed a bank.
• The last point regarding the suicide, and the reference for it. The reference mentions NOTHING about suicide. Since that text is unsubstantiated and obviously fabricated, it goes.
• "Battle" is pointless. It's a peacock term. "Encounters" is more than enough.

I'm all for compromise, but I'm not going to sit here while people add ridiculous things to this article. --vi5in 15:45, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Answers

Vivin, discussions are started with good faith to stop the edit wars, and not to force the versions of your own liking. You preferred to force your own POV article version prior to starting the discussion (that too, when I forced you to do so).

• Your sentence “As such, anyone who calls himself a "General" of such a outfit has delusions of grandeur and suffers from megalomania” proves your hate for the subject. I do not believe that Che Guevara, Sukhdev Singh Babbar, Subhas Chandra Bose, Labh Singh, leaders of Ghadar Party, leaders of American Revolution and leaders of several other independence organizations who used armed struggles to achieve their goals ever had such delusions of grandeur and also I strongly believe that they did not suffered from megalomania. So rank “General” is “General” even if it was bestowed upon these guys by thousands of militants/ revolutionists who followed their orders until their deaths OR by their extremely close circle associates.
• Chicago Sun Times states (About this specific robbery) that the robbery was the latest by Sikh extremists, who have raided banks to finance a bloody four-year campaign to make Punjab state - the only part of India where Sikhs are a ... . It means that they robbed this bank to finance their anti-indian/ pro-khalistan movement. Los Angeles Times, in an article related to this biggest bank robbery of Indian history state that Bank robberies have been a major means of financing the Sikh militants' violent campaign for a separate state they call Khalistan. Bank robberies occur almost every week in Punjab. It also states that The Sikhs fled in a van after filling sacks with 58 million rupees-$4.5 million. Part of the money belonged to the Reserve Bank of India, the country's central bank, which does not have a branch in the city. Police said the robbers shouted slogans supporting Khalistan. Bank employees told the Press Trust of India news agency that the robbers said they would use the loot to buy arms. .

Since a major part of the looted money belonged to Reserve Bank of India, hence it was a double attack where Sikh militants weakened the Indian Government finacially and they used the same Indian money to buy arms to attack Indian security forces. Hence, The sentence "This bank robbery was biggest of other similar actions which Sikh militants did to weaken the government and to use Indian Money against Indian Security forces" simply state the same, but in less complicated sentences. Deletion of this sentence portrays Sikh militants as robbers only (which is POV) and not its significance.

• Now for your kind information only --> Eventhough Sikh militants were attacking Indian Security Forces, but! In addition, they were also attacking Indian infrastructure and robbing Indian banks which resulted in weakening the Government financially. Cynthia Keppley Mahmood in her book "Fighting for Faith and Nation: Dialogues With Sikh Militants", published by University of Pennsylvania Press, 1996 state that Sikh Militants were robbing banks, attacking Government properties and Indian security forces. In April 1984 alone, they attacked 37 Railway stations.

• The reference which you are intentionally deleting, i.e. The Tribune clearly state “...father-in-law of Sukha lived in the abandoned house after his death for a while. However, he committed suicide by jumping himself before a train after he was ‘mercilessly’ beaten up by the police". Vivin, I am hurt to see that you are deleting a valid reference only to murder the history and show your POV version. Hey God ???. Vivin, kindly overcome your hate and please spare the dead souls and history at least.

• Since Mr Labh Singh alias Sukha also fought against Indian Army during Operation Blue Star hence word "battle" is needed. This operation was carried out by Indian Army troops with tanks and armored vehicles which are used in heavy battles and not in mere encounters. Indian Chief of Army Staff General Arun Vaidya was assisted by Lt. Gen. K. Sunderjee as Vice-Chief in this battle. Even Indian Army could not win this battle until the third day hence using word “encounter” will be a "LIE" and a "hate" towards the subject (which is POV). And I want to stand with the facts, i.e. NPOV version.

So, Respected Vivin, I am be reverting your version now. If any other respected Misplaced Pages editor has any questions, kindly put them over here and I will answer.--Singh6 (talk) 18:57, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

If you're going to discuss the article can you do it without pointless hyperbole and drama? It's hard reading through all (words like "LIE" and "HATE" do little to further your discussion) that to figure out what you're actually saying. As far as the points go:

• You realize that the KCF is not an actual military force? So calling himself a "General" actual means nothing other than just a ceremonial title. He could have called himself "Super Big-Chief Head Kahuna Of All I Survey" and it wouldn't have made a difference. The title is self-appointed. If you claim it was "bestowed" upon him by his followers or whoever, then bring sources to back that up.
• You should have simply added that in there instead of accusing me of trying to delete it or, distort history, or desecrate the souls of the dead and the living and their cats. That sentence initially existed in the article without any sort of references or reliable source and hence was speculation.
• You realize that robbing makes you a robber, correct? The law doesn't distinguish between people who rob to buy a thousand teddy bears to give to homeless children or people who rob to buy bombs and guns to blow up and kill people. Robbing is robbing, and those who "rob" are "robbers", like those who "dance" are "dancers". I can go on all day.
• Your point is mere speculation. Can you say definitely that they weakened the government? I am completely ok with you adding in points saying that they did it to weaken the government. Realize (like I mentioned before) that no sources existed to back up that sentence earlier.
• That was entirely my fault and I apologize. The reference I looked at was this one, and it didn't mention the suicide.
• Ok, if you have a source that says that he was involved in Operation Bluestar we can add that in there. But it was just Operation Bluestar which was a military operation and not a "battle". You can only use "battle" in the figurative sense here and that would be a "peacock" term. Battles usually occur between sizeable military forces. Not between a rag-tag team of militants and an army.

Now I should point out your obvious bias in this subject. You clearly think that these people were some sort of larger-than-life heroes and you don't want a neutral treatment of the subject. You keep talking about NPOV and then get mad when people try to tone down your article and present it in an encylopaedic form. I'd much rather it be in that form than a fanpage. --vi5in 22:45, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

You also realize that by pointing out people like Che Guevara you're actually proving my point? A revolutionary leader with that much impact doesn't even have a militaryperson infobox on his page. He's not even called "General" "Commandante". I'm thinking of replacing the militaryperson infobox with a normal one like in Che Guevara. --vi5in 23:21, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

References

1. http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-3810376.html
2. http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/58240583.html?dids=58240583:58240583&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Feb+13%2C+1987&author=&pub=Los+Angeles+Times+(pre-1997+Fulltext)&desc=Sikh+Separatists+Masquerade+as+Police+to+Stage+India's+Biggest+Bank+Robbery&pqatl=google
3. http://books.google.com/books?id=wA3yjdgyY9kC&pg=RA1-PA79-IA3&lpg=RA1-PA79-IA3&dq=Bank+robberies+punjab+Faith+and+Nation&source=web&ots=oxi-4CgC5N&sig=oZUaoW7V_9LGOI9OIAbRzI-HtpY&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

Death was in Khalstan what now?

It says he died in Punjab, Khalistan? ARYAN818 (talk) 17:50, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

You are right. He died in India. New country "Khalistan" does not exist so far.--Beetle CT (talk) 01:10, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Comments for B-class

Its surely at C-level now, as it is well-referenced and close to being comprehensive. I think if the following is done, it can be a B:

• one image
• some details on his career in Punjab Police, where he worked for 12 years.
• some details on his leaving police force and joining Khalistan Commando Force, it may not be a sudden event. How did he get inspired?
• normalization of references (some has bare refs), some should use cite book format etc.

Once these are taken care of, it can go for GA-review also.--GDibyendu (talk) 13:55, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
Posted by Kensplanet_C 17:26, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

I have improved the article with some very valuable information and atleast 10 world level neutral references. --98.207.210.210 (talk) 06:07, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Please be sure to actually write the content, wp:copyright, rather than copying. If you must copy, you must follow wp:quote. Many of the references will age out. Some are specious. All are bare refs. Some improvements, but none of the issues listed for B-class are addressed.

- sinneed (talk) 05:01, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Hi Sinned, please note that the contents/references of this article were checked and evaluated on June 17th 2009 by two respected WikiProject India members User:GDibyendu and User:Kensplanet and it was awarded Level-C. --98.207.210.210 (talk) 06:37, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

• Very respectfully, I do NOT agree with your sentence "none of the issues listed for B-class are addressed", because I did add information between "Labh Singh's leaving police force" and "joining Khalistan Commando Force". Added Ramesh Chander episode which showed "subject’s increasing loyalty towards Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale" and "his eventual move towards Khalistan Commando Force". I had also added several world level references, further improving Labh Singh's wp:notability.--98.207.210.210 (talk) 07:52, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

• Most of the information which you have deleted/modified was there prior to this evaluation. You must care for the content, which was already evaluated by two respected and neutral WikiProject India members. --98.207.210.210 (talk) 06:37, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

• I will take care of the references before they age out. If you really want to improve the article, really want to get it a better rating and ‘want to see it passing through GA-review (as indicated by User: GDibyendu then please start fixing the references before they age out.--98.207.210.210 (talk) 06:37, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

• Regarding wp:quote, Thanks for this kind information, I wasn’t aware that I can do so. I will read this policy and wherever required ‘will modify the contents per wp:quote. --98.207.210.210 (talk) 06:37, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

• In edit 1, under section “Association with Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale” you have mistakenly killed the association of the subject with Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale. You could have used the wp:quote to keep the text of the first sentence/row.--98.207.210.210 (talk) 06:37, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

• In edit 2, you have completely modified the content already checked and reviewed by WikiProject India members. --98.207.210.210 (talk) 06:37, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

• Through edit 3, you have mistakenly violated the wp:NPOV by simple insertion of words “attacks on police, bank robberies, and murders”. Whereas previous text showed that the attacks on police were selective, i.e. attack on Director-General of the Punjab Police, i.e. a unique act, Bank robbery was “biggest bank robbery of Indian history”, i.e. another unique act which was especially done “to finance violent campaign for a separate Sikh state of Khalistan” and not for some personal gains as it appears from your new word mere “robberies”. Every sentence was fully referenced.--98.207.210.210 (talk) 06:37, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

• In edit 4, you have converted a section heading into a wiki link.--98.207.210.210 (talk) 06:37, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

• In edit 5 you have mistakenly eliminated an important reference, i.e. Genesis of terrorism By Satyapal Dang which link which alone link Labh Singh’s all three names.--98.207.210.210 (talk) 06:37, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

• In edit 6, under section “Association with Khalistan Commando Force”, you have made massive changes, this single attack showed the value of the subject Vs fear in police officers.--98.207.210.210 (talk) 06:37, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

You are aware that no one is/was indulging in edit wars over here. Very respectfully, I do not agree with most of these edits. Considering this article’s evaluation by two neutral WikiProject India members, you should have discussed these points in its talk page first. --98.207.210.210 (talk) 06:37, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

I will re-study the subject/article, and while re-editing, ‘will try my best to incorporate all your suggestions (because I do agree with some of them). Please note that I am also a mere human, who can make mistakes, so ‘will always appreciate your help. --98.207.210.210 (talk) 06:37, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

• "In edit 5 you have mistakenly eliminated an important reference" - No reference eliminated.
• "Most of the information which you have deleted/modified was there prior to this evaluation." - Which has nothing to do with anything whatsoever.
• "If you really want to improve the article..." - I will take whatever action seems appropriate. You may or may not support my actions. You may or may not change the resulting text, as you choose. :)
• "you have mistakenly killed the association of the subject with Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale" - No. I killed a copyvio. Do not restore the copyvio.
• "In edit 2, you have completely modified the content already checked and reviewed by WikiProject India members." - having nothing to do with anything whatsoever.
• "Through edit 3, you have mistakenly violated the wp:NPOV" - No. But feel free to improve it as you think best.
• " this single attack showed the value of the subject Vs fear in police officers." - I can't understand your intent, but I think we are all aware of the effect of terrorism. Further, while many know that few actually SHOOT in a fire-fight, many do not. Finally, as I said in the edit summary, the article is about Singh, not about terrorism or how many ordinary court guards will fire their weapons (or even be able to tell who to shoot towards) in a firefight. I am sure you will make whatever edits you feel will improve the section. Sensational wording won't get it, though.
• "you should have discussed these points in its talk page first." - No.
• "will always appreciate your help." - You are welcome. - sinneed (talk) 14:04, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Wording in lead.

"who took command of the Khalistan Commando Force after its first leader, Manbir Singh Chaheru, was arrested and eventually killed in 1987."
I struggled with this. He took command when Chaheru was arrested, rather than when he died, as I read the sources. While the death of the 1st leader is important, I don't know that it needs a lead spot, and I think it is misleading as it is written.- sinneed (talk) 14:14, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Early life

The only references I can find for Early life in a language I know are very stylized and do not meet wp:RS. What they actually say is that he was born in the home of the individuals. The original wording was a copyvio. I am very dubious of this information. CN and dubious flags.- sinneed (talk) 15:55, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Editorial hatchet - wrong person article covered more than one individual of very similar name, with poor use of antecedents

"Most of his family migrated to Canada after his death..." This was sourced to Kin of slain Babbar Khalsa chief shift abroad but:

• it was yet another copyvio

* it wasn't about the subject person These spurious "citations" and copyright violations are very very tedious.- sinneed (talk) 18:36, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Again, do not restore this copyright violation. A interested editor might choose to place this in the article in the editor's own words, or to comply with wp:quote. Or not.- sinneed (talk) 00:52, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

User: Sinneed's ruthless vandalism

Sinneed, I am forced to call your edits as ruthless vandalism now. Your edits prove that you do NOT have information about the subject at all. You do not read the references properly. You believe in editing/deleting the contents/references based on your limited knowledge. You are unable to respect the already evaluated contents of respected neutral wiki editors who have granted it rating-C. Please tell me what is your contribution to improve this article, how many unique references you have added so far? Why are you destroying the article??

I almost cried after seeing such a ruthless destruction of the article which I wanted to take to GA-review. What are you doing????

Sukhdev Singh is a very common name. See what you have done in , read the news, eventhough its heading says "Kin of slain Babbar Khalsa chief shift abroad" but the Tribune has documented information about "Mehal Singh" and Sukhdev Singh Babbar - both belong to village Dassuwal AND [[Labh Singh, general of Khalistan Commando Force who belong to Panjwar village. It has documented following text for Labh Singh:

"The entire family of Labh Singh, a self-styled general of the Khalistan Commando Force, alias Sukha Sipahi, who belonged to Panjwar village, has also migrated to a foreign land. The ancestral house of Sukha Sipahi, which remained abandoned for years after his killing at Tanda near Hoshiarpur, is occupied by his relatives

The house was forcibly occupied by a migrant PSEB employee a few days after the killing of Sukha. It is now occupied by his cousin, Baljit Kaur.

The occupant claimed that the entire family of the slain militant had migrated to Canada. She said the father-in-law of Sukha lived in the abandoned house after his death for a while. However, he committed suicide by jumping himself before a train after he was ‘mercilessly’ beaten up by the police.

Villagers told the TNS team that Sukha was a constable in the Punjab Police. After coming close to Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale, he deserted the police and joined the militant fold"

Why??... Why are you unable to read the references???... Why are you destroying the article.... Why you are not raising your objections in this talk page to fulfill wp:consensus.....

Why you had to do this and later revert the same when others forced you to read the reference.

If you have this type of questions then why don’t you ask in the talk page before putting your own wording.

Whatever I have typed above is only a fraction of your vandalism. For sake of God... STOP !!!!... talk with other editors....Give us an opportunity to answer first.

Please join the discussions, above ... or perhaps better, wp:Be Bold and move forward

In the mean time, do not throw away the work of the other 3 editors working on this article.

Do not restore the copyright violations as you did with your large-scale reversion.

Thank you. - sinneed (talk) 00:49, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

• If you read closely:
  

"Labh Singh joined the police force in 1971 and continued to serve the force untill he left his job 12 years later"
and:
"Labh Singh was a member of the police for 12 years before becoming a militant."
you may be able to determine that they are not the same.

Or not.- sinneed (talk) 01:13, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Hi User:Sinneed, please raise any wp:copyvio issues overe here, I will be more than happy to discuss them and fix them while following wp:consensus along with all other respected wiki editors. As pointed by anon, in the sections above, I believe that you are vandalizing the article --Gurbinder singh1 (talk) 03:21, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, This is what I was complaining all the time. But User:Sinneed was not leaving any chance for me to re-structure any text, he is continuously re-structuring the article with huge deletions/additions etc. As I explained in my last discussion requests/replies, he is ruthlessly ignoring all my requests to discuss the contents before modifying them. He did not even care for the checked/evaluated version (It was checked by wiki seniors while granting it 'Rating-C'. I am also willing to work with any other editor (including respected editor Sinneed to fix any otherwp:copyvio text (if it exist). --98.207.210.210 (talk) 03:43, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I again request respected editor User:Sinneed to raise all his objections over here so that other wiki editors could get an opportunity to reply to his questions. Sinneed, kindly join and discuss and lets reach wp:consensus before making any further edits.--98.207.210.210 (talk) 03:43, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Are all these changes vandalism to be reverted?

Please consider joining the feedback request service. An editor has requested comments from other editors for this discussion. Within 24 hours, this page will be added to the following list: Biographies When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the list. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.

Are all these changes vandalism to be reverted? (updated - sinneed (talk) 04:43, 26 June 2009 (UTC) )
Edits by user:Sunnybondsinghjalwehra, myself(user:Sinneed), and user:Kensplanet have all been thrown out by user:Gurbinder singh1 and someone editing under Special:Contributions/98.207.210.210. This is part of a many-months-long series of similar wp:Ownership of articles issues.

At least one wp:copyright violation, discussed above, has yet again been restored. I have resisted this editor in a series of IDs (not, until now, wp:socks I think, just abandons an id once it has been blocked and moves on). I won't revert out the copyvio again. I am tired.- sinneed (talk) 03:57, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Changes in question: . —harej (talk) 04:36, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

• C-Class biography articles
• C-Class biography (military) articles
• Unknown-importance biography (military) articles
• Military biography work group articles
• WikiProject Biography articles
• C-Class India articles
• Low-importance India articles
• C-Class India articles of Low-importance
• C-Class Punjab (India) articles
• Mid-importance Punjab (India) articles
• C-Class Punjab (India) articles of Mid-importance
• WikiProject Punjab (India) articles
• WikiProject India articles
• Misplaced Pages requests for comment