Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 00:13, 13 July 2009

Please sign your posts with four tildes (~~~~) and add comments on a new topic in a new section. I will respond on your talk page unless you request otherwise. Questions, requests, criticism, and any other comments are always welcome!

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I am an administrator open to recall. To request this, please start a request for comment; if the consensus there is that my conduct has been unbecoming of an administrator, I will resign.

Restriction

Hi, please could you have a look at my "appeal" at WP:A/R/A. The situation I find myself in at the moment is ridiculous - I'm being warned for commenting on pages (the RFC on the date unlinking bot) which are not in any shape or form "style and editing guidelines". This leads me to conclude that when the arbs set this restriction, they were using "style and editing guidelines" as some kind of euphemism for "anything to do with date linking". In any case I've yet to hear any justification for the scope of this restriction - it seems entirely arbitrary and nothing to do with the supposed offences. For example, I was just about to make a comment at WT:Disambiguation, but on checking found that this WP page is marked as an "editing guideline", so going by the wording of the restriction I shouldn't be commenting on it, but WHY?? It makes absolutely no sense to me, yet most arbs have not even responded to my request for amendment, and those who have responded negatively have not answered my reasonable enough points made in response to them - in particular, no-one has given any reason as to why the restriction should include discussions. So please, could you have a look at this and help get this entirely inappropriate restriction changed - at least so as to exclude discussions that don't relate to dates.--Kotniski (talk) 16:34, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

The thread in question has now been moved to Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for arbitration/Date delinking#Request to amend prior case: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Date delinking (2).--Kotniski (talk) 11:04, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply, but I would appreciate more information - the arguments for amending the restriction have been quite extensively set out (by me and several others), and the replies from you and the other opposing arbs don't seem to address them - they just say that you/they believe the restriction is justified, without explaining why. I may be missing something, but so far I don't believe I've seen any reasoning for making the scope of the restriction include discussions, particularly discussions on style and editing guidelines which have nothing at all to do with the subject of the case. You will appreciate, I hope, that in my position (with effectively nowhere else to go) it is extremely unsatisfactory just to be told that the arguments in my favour are insufficient, without any reason or counterarguments being given. --Kotniski (talk) 12:49, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

I think what you say is not only harsh, but totally unfair. If you looked at the totality of what I did over date linking, and not just a few isolated occasions when I lost my temper (which I have acknowledged, and learnt from), you would see that I did a lot to make progress on the issue in a proper, positive way. Your characterization of me as one who is likely to exacerbate the dispute through actions on other pages (even though the dispute is now basically settled anyway) feels like one of the worst personal attacks I've suffered on WP, given the status of the person it comes from. I'm off on holiday now, so have no immediate need to discuss the matter further, but since we're doing personal criticism, let me say this: ArbCom's appalling handling of this issue has done far, far more harm than the actions of any editor - you've allowed the dispute to drag on into a ridiculous six-month bout of mudslinging, imposed sanctions that have nothing to do with solving any current problem, driven perfectly normal good editors away from the project, failed to acknowledge or discuss the systematic defects which led to the mess (even when they were pointed out to you), generally failed to engage in constructive dialogue with those involved, and are now inventing wildly exaggerated accusations to justify what were obviously erroneous decisions. I always assumed that those at the top of WP were wise and sensible people making considered decisions for the good of the project - I still believe that as individuals you are, but somehow as a collective body you have lost the plot rather badly. I hope that this case isn't representative of how ArbCom usually acts, but anyway, I hope you and the other Arbs (can you forward these comments to your mailing list?) will look objectively at what's gone on here and at your own part in it, and learn some serious lessons for the future, just as I'm sure all parties to the dispute have done.--Kotniski (talk) 10:09, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

New Editor Concerns

I'm extremely concerned by User:Some_guy and his... unco-operative remarks and general attitude. He's already had User:Nukes4Tots and User:Koalorka blocked for a week for disagreeing with him (he says it's for "personal insults- I disagree) and honestly, I think it's time someone with some authority came in and told him to either get with the programme or clear off and stop wasting our time. He's already said he's too good to even take a moment to join the MILHIST project, and I for one will not support any proposals made by people who can't be bothered pitching in and helping the projects. Please, I'd appreciate some backup here. It's not a good direction for a prestigous project like MILHIST to be heading in. Commander Zulu (talk) 10:46, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply! My concern isn't so much the proposals (they're not particularly harmful, as you say, but I still disagree with them) as with the actions of the person proposing them. He basically appeared out of nowhere, made sweeping changes to articles, and when two of the "regular" editors asked him to knock it off, he promptly complained about "personal attacks" and got them blocked for a week, and has generally been carrying on about "No-one owns articles!" and that sort of thing. Yes, true, no-one "Owns" articles, but I'm sure you'll agree the "active" editors are quite busy enough maintaining the articles and that without our support, most of the firearm articles would be, well, Not Very Good. And call me old-fashioned, but I would say that basic courtesy dictates some deference to the project maintaining the article. I'm not saying You Must Be A Member Of MILHIST To Have An Opinion, I'm saying that barging in and carrying on the way this new chap has Just Isn't Cricket, and that a discreet word in their ear to the effect that This Has Been Noticed might not go astray- a sort of "Your input is quite welcome, but getting editors blocked and insisting You Know Best when none of us have ever heard of you is, well counterproductive."

At any rate, I admire your ability to remain professional about the whole thing! :) Commander Zulu (talk) 12:56, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Koaolorka never participated in the discussion and Nukes did not participate for three days before he was blocked. Both ANIs were reviewed and the blocks administered by independent administrators. Both editors exhibited a refusal to discuss the substance of adding subsections at any length, and relied primarily on attacking me. However, Nukes has started accusing me of trying to silence him and prevent him from participating in the discussion, so you can look at that here. Some guy (talk) 21:57, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages Signpost: 6 July 2009

• News and notes: Commons grant, license change, new chapters, usability and more
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• Features and admins: Approved this week
• Arbitration report: The Report on Lengthy Litigation

Delivered by SoxBot (talk) at 02:54, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Volunteer opportunity in Bethesda, Thursday, July 16

The Wikimedia Foundation will be conducting an all-day Academy at the National Institutes of Health, in Bethesda, Maryland, on Thursday, July 16. The team that will be teaching at the Academy, a mix of paid staff and volunteers, is looking for four more volunteers to be teaching assistants, providing one-to-one assistance in workshops whenever a workshop participant has a problem following the instructional directions. (We currently have two editors signed up as teaching assistants, and are looking for a total of six.)

The NIH editing workshops are only for two hours, but volunteers are asked to meet the Wikimedia Foundation team at the hotel in Bethesda at about 7:15 a.m. (time to be finalized shortly) and to stay for the entire day, which ends at 4:30 p.m. Lunch will be provided. (The full schedule can be found here.)

The team is not necessarily looking for expert editors (though they are welcome), just people who can help novices who might get stuck when trying to do some basic things. If you've been an editor for at least 3 months, and have done at least 500 edits, you probably qualify.

If you're interested, please send John Broughton an email. If you might be interested, but would like further information, please post a note on his user talk page, so that he can respond there, and others can see what was asked.

(You have received this posting because your user page indicates that you live in Maryland or DC. --EdwardsBot (talk) 03:24, 10 July 2009 (UTC))

ACPD membership

You mentioned in your notification that interested editors can apply to be a part of the Advisory Council on Project Development. Where should interested editors (for example, me) send such applications? --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 03:52, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Some guy ANI

I have started an ANI discussion on Some guy: WP:ANI#Some guy You may want to comment there. Thank you. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 05:07, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Substituting surname

I understand. One thing though. Any idea how you can {{subst: a surname in the page title to DEFAULTSORT sort the categories? Its just I have a large batch of German politicians to transwiki and I want to do it more quickly. So basically when you create the page it automatically places e.g Fritz Baier as Baier, Fritz in the categories. If not I gather there is a bot that can default sort the categories by surname and fix it afterwards? Dr. Blofeld 11:12, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I'd imagine it is something like {subst:PAGENAME} but with a little programming to read the last word of the title and place it first. It would save a great deal of time anyway.Regards. Dr. Blofeld 11:49, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Tool link question

Out of curiosity would you happen to know of any tools that check the copyright status of images here in a manner similar to the ones we use for the ACR process to check for dead external links and dab links? And if we don't have any tools, would you happen to know anyone to whom I could suggest such a tool if it has not already been suggested? TomStar81 (Talk • Some say ¥€$, I say NO) 02:42, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, asked at FAC. Now I play the waiting game... TomStar81 (Talk • Some say ¥€$, I say NO) 02:57, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Talkback

⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 04:06, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Regrettable

It's regrettable that you feel the need to resign from the ArbCom, unfortunately, it would probably be best if all of the members who voted for this ill-advised council do so as well. You are well-respected, and I hope that you will continue to be a strong member of the community. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 21:18, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

I think the idea that everyone who voted for the council resigning is a ridiculous idea. Since when were ArbCom members infallible creatures not allowed to make mistakes? I think it's unfortunate Kirill took protests from certain vocal community members as a sign that the entire community rejects the idea and doesn't trust him any longer. An endorsement from roughly 20 people does not a community-wide consensus make. Steven Walling (talk) 21:25, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

What's going on? (admittedly, I'm not keen at the new council stuffs and discussion) You're one of finest ArbCom members, so please don't resign the position.--Caspian blue 21:29, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Let me add that I do thank you for your work. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 21:56, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

done and dusted?

well forget a week, t'would seem an hour's a long time in wiki-politics! - Are you sure you're up for resigning over the council thing, at this point? - Bear in mind the truism that the vast majority of 'the community' is actually just perfectly happy editing away on a few articles in the blissful ignorance that should they ever run into hot water, the 'management' levels of the community are you know.... a bit... idiosyncratic? ( / broken / stupid / embarrassing / colourful adjective of your own choice here ;-) - have a cup of tea, and mebbe reconsider? If not - then thanks heaps for all your work etc. etc. (first of many, I'm sure) :-) Privatemusings (talk) 21:26, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Second that. Steven Walling (talk) 21:26, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Wonderful, NOT. One of the best admins and arbs we've ever had was driven away by the reaction to something he felt would help improve wiki. — Rlevse • Talk • 21:36, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

What Rlevse said. I truly hope that you reconsider your decision to resign from Arbcom, if not, thank you for all that you have done in your time as a member of Arbcom. You have always been a voice of reason, I hope that you will continue to be. Best regards, Woody (talk) 21:41, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Arbcom is a completely thankless crap job. No matter what an arb does he gets crap for it. — Rlevse • Talk • 21:42, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't doubt it, I certainly don't envy any of you. All I can say is thank you for all that you do. Best regards, Woody (talk) 22:30, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Kirill, the ACPD is fundamentally a great idea for which you should be proud. Its implementation and scope was just a little too ambitious; everything here is accomplished piecemeal through small steps, not by grand cure-all solutions. --maclean 21:44, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Agreed with Rlevse and others elsewhere, at least about the resignation, if not the thanklessness of ArbCom, about which I blissfully know nothing. And I think the advisory council is a great idea. I can also see how resigning ArbCom might not be the hardest decision in the world to make, but still regret that you've made it. You wouldn't be up to clerking duties if it came to that, would you? ;) The ArbCom will still need someone to file all the statements for them. John Carter (talk) 21:45, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

What? (I missed this.) Kirill. No. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:48, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

We should all quit arbcom, then the community can fix everything themselves and can't bitch at us. — Rlevse • Talk • 21:52, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Complainers will always complain, rarely aware of the amount of work those goes into what they're complaining about, quick to assume bad faith: thick skins are in order! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:53, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

(Sandy, I missed this as well, completely. Woody (talk) 22:30, 11 July 2009 (UTC))

• Decisions made in haste are often repented at leisure - I really think you should spend much more time contemplating the consequences of an honourable but premature reaction to a certain amount of hostility from certain areas of the community. I do have a suggestion for a quick fix; take the group off of publicly viewable fora and place them on a email list hosted by Wiki servers and then make decisions and enforce them without consultation with the community - this should satisfy one of your major critics, since this is the method they used until their star waned - except I think the majority of the assembled talents are peculiarly adverse to that method of influencing the project. Nope, if the creation of the group is flawed then the really honourable thing to do is try to get it right (or, at least, better) next time. Another cliche I shall throw your way is "The only person who never makes a mistake is the person who never makes anything." You may not have previously had my advantage of habitually being a minority viewpoint within the Misplaced Pages community, but if you really have the best interests of it at heart (and I am surely in the majority in believing you do) then you will persist in your efforts and in also undertaking the responsibilities that the project has entrusted you with. In fact, remaining as an Arb and yet also admitting to a flaw in judgement (if that is what it is, I am uncertain the verdict is not yet in) may increase your stock in those who recognise you as being one of those who act and work diligently for the betterment of the project. There are changes afoot, as is evidenced by the recent rash of RfC's and proposals for change, and there is a requirement or even a necessity that there are those who are currently/recently part of the infrastructure remain to help guide and advise those who seek to move Misplaced Pages into the future. In short, please reconsider your decision to resign - I am sure the ArbCom will accept a plea of "temporary insanity" (if only that is the general get out for being a candidate in the first place). LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:49, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

• I have had to go on Jimbo's page and request he uses some arcane founder power to stop you resigning - do you really need the grief that that will incur if he does (... you are going to have to bloody ban me from this page, too, if you want this to stop!) LessHeard vanU (talk) 23:25, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Please reconsider. In good faith, you proposed something. Some others haven't agreed. Right or wrong, this happens all the time on WP and in real life. Here, as everywhere, we need people to be BOLD: the encyclopedia and the world would be nothing without it. I hope you can see that there is still faith in you, and in your ability to resolve our tedious conflicts, and to generate ideas about to make it it better.--Slp1 (talk) 23:24, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Everyone, thank you for your kind words; they mean a great deal to me. Kirill  01:33, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Please don't resign over this, Kirill. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:35, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

If I weren't serious about resigning, I would have never done so; it's in the best interests of the project that the piper be paid in this case, I think. I'm sorry that I wasn't able to live up to your expectations. Kirill  01:40, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm certain you were serious about resigning, and appreciate the conviction and action. But the point is that you did live up to the expectations of many (most?) WP editors. We need and want committed people who are willing to risk and give the best of themselves. Sometimes that means making proposals that aren't accepted; the wrong timing? the wrong presentation? Only time will tell. Building an encyclopedia this way is hard work, as I know from experience. I can't imagine the pressures of being an arbitrator, but grunt-esque editors like me need and want role models like you who are willing to think outside the box to make this encyclopedia better, and stick to it even when the going gets hot. The piper would be paid most inappropriately in this case. --Slp1 (talk) 02:44, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Yep. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:51, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Kirill, I won't sugarcoat it-I was disappointed in you when you were first elected. I was really hoping you would shake things up more. But in retrospect you were playing it smart and safe. You were only one voice and vote at the time, and a freshman at that. I expected way too much of you. Plus you still had the burden of MILHIST on your shoulders then too. But since Bauder's retirement, and especially since the last Arb elections, you have started to fulfill all the hopes and promise I had for you back in those dark days of 06-07. You are a leader and a builder. The community and the committee needs you now more than ever. I know it is a difficult and often thankless job, but you are the best man for it. Please, old friend, don't resign when the end of your term of voluntary imprisonment draws so near. Try and stay on at least until elections in November. Then by all means stand down and get a much deserved rest. But in the meantime continue to improve the committee and its culture and build onto your already impressive legacy.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) (talk) 02:51, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

I appreciate your faith in me; but I don't think my presence on the Committee is necessary, at this point. The reforms I've helped set into motion—the increased transparency, the proper procedures, the new arbitration policy—will, I think, continue whether or not I'm there to oversee them personally; and the fallout of this affair, and the resulting questioning of my actions and motivations, would merely serve as a needless distraction from the Committee's work in the coming months. I am still only one member of a large committee; the community, if it speaks with a single voice and asks that the reforms continue, can do far more to motivate the Committee to act than I ever could.

As for my legacy, if it turns out to be merely that of a man who knew when he could do more good by leaving than by staying, I would be content; but I think it's a bit premature to discuss it, in any case, since I have no plans of retiring from the project. Certainly, I should finally have the time to finish some of those articles I've been putting off since 2007. :-) Kirill  03:05, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Oh the articles!...Yes, I'd forgotten about those; ) While myself, and most everyone here, would respect you no less for resigning, there is something to be said for riding out the storm. You did not go into this job not expecting to court critics, detractors and outright enemies did you? : ) If you resign now they can claim victory. They can say you left with a cloud overhead and couldn't take the heat, which is utter BS. This whole teapot tempest will soon be old news. Your strength of character will out this one, of that I have no doubts. So unless this is the proverbial, magic straw, which I really hope is not the case, why not stay on just long enough to deny the pricks our most esteemed colleagues, the satisfaction :-)--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) (talk) 03:30, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

There is no need for you to resign. There is even less need for you to request that your CheckUser and Oversight rights be removed. If you do resign, you resigned in good standing. I wish that you would reconsider... :-( J.delanoy_adds 03:12, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

(e/c with Kirill himself) Sorry Kirill, I for one do not accept your resignation. You're a member of our ArbCom and we really need you to stay that way. ArbCom works as a group. You can take leadership from within a group, and if you do so, you run the risk of being slapped down. Don't take it personally, it comes with the territory of leadership, the "nail sticking up gets the hammer" and all...

Did you (and AC as a whole) screw up with the advisory council? IMO yes. But so what? If I were to list all my good ideas with bad initial reception, my good ideas that turned out to be bad ones, my good ideas that turned out to be massively misconceived, and my just-plain-stupid ideas as proved in real-life: well, there is no web browser able to display the contents.

Please revert any "resignation" edits you've made, you're still the best we have, no matter what you may think just now. We voted for you. We need you. Franamax (talk) 03:21, 12 July 2009 (UTC)