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Revision as of 17:35, 7 September 2009

Template:Cite journal is permanently protected from editing because it is a heavily used or highly visible template. Substantial changes should first be proposed and discussed here on this page. If the proposal is uncontroversial or has been discussed and is supported by consensus, editors may use {{edit protected}} to notify an administrator to make the requested edit. Usually, any contributor may edit the template's documentation to add usage notes or categories. Any contributor may edit the template's sandbox. Functionality of the template can be checked using test cases.

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Academic Journals Template‑class

This template is within the scope of WikiProject Academic Journals, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Academic Journals on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Academic JournalsWikipedia:WikiProject Academic JournalsTemplate:WikiProject Academic JournalsAcademic Journal Template This template does not require a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.

Template:Werdnabot

Usage of "language="

The Usage section does not include details of the language= parameter. This is simple, but includes the non-obvious instruction that English is assumed and need not be specified. The page is locked so I cannot add this. HairyWombat (talk) 19:36, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

The documentation is not locked. Pagrashtak 19:18, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Done. HairyWombat (talk) 19:42, 1 December 2008 (UTC) Done again. Maybe this time it will not disappear. HairyWombat (talk) 06:30, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

laysource= is broken

{{Editprotected}} Somehow with all the recent patches the laysource= parameter, which is documented, got broken. Here is the obvious patch; can you please install it? Thanks. Eubulides (talk) 06:41, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

 Done. — Huntster (t • @ • c) 08:26, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Replacement for quotes=no for reprints, errata, etc.?

The deprecation of quotes=no has broken a use of {{cite journal}} when describing a source, such as an erratum or a reprint, which needs something that is like a title even though there is no title. What is the workaround for this? Here is an example taken from Autism:

• {{cite journal |author= ] |title= Autistic disturbances of affective contact |journal= Nerv Child |volume=2 |pages=217–50 |year=1943}} {{cite journal |title=Reprint |quotes=no |year=1968 |journal= Acta Paedopsychiatr |volume=35 |issue=4 |pages=100–36 |pmid=4880460}}

This currently formats as follows:

• Kanner L (1943). "Autistic disturbances of affective contact". Nerv Child. 2: 217–50. "Reprint". Acta Paedopsychiatr. 35 (4): 100–36. 1968. PMID 4880460. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |quotes= ignored (help)

But the word "Reprint" should not be quoted: it's not a source whose title is "Reprint", it's merely a reprint. Here's another example, also from Autism:

• {{cite journal |author= Filipek PA, Accardo PJ, Baranek GT ''et al.'' |title= The screening and diagnosis of autistic spectrum disorders |journal= J Autism Dev Disord |year=1999 |volume=29 |issue=6 |pages=439–84 |doi=10.1023/A:1021943802493}} {{cite journal |title=Erratum |quotes=no |year=2000 |journal= J Autism Dev Disord |volume=30 |issue=1 |pages=81 |doi=10.1023/A:1017256313409 |pmid=10638459}}

This currently formats as:

• Filipek PA, Accardo PJ, Baranek GT; et al. (1999). "The screening and diagnosis of autistic spectrum disorders". J Autism Dev Disord. 29 (6): 439–84. doi:10.1023/A:1021943802493. {{cite journal}}: Explicit use of et al. in: |author= (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) "Erratum". J Autism Dev Disord. 30 (1): 81. 2000. doi:10.1023/A:1017256313409. PMID 10638459. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |quotes= ignored (help)

but the word "Erratum" should not be quoted. If "quotes=no" is no longer the right way to format these examples, then what is the right way? Eubulides (talk) 07:47, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

This seems a bit of a hack in the first place. I'd advise repeating the full information. After all, shouldn't what's enclosed within the template be the full details? Here's how I did something similar (using {{citation}}, but the principle's the same) in María Ruiz de Burton:

• {{citation|last= Burton |first= Mrs. H S |title= Who Would Have Thought It? A Novel ... |place= Philadelphia |publisher= J.B. Lippincott & Co. |year= 1872 |url= http://www.letrs.indiana.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=wright2;idno=wright2-0433 |oclc= 16651194 }}. Republished as {{citation|last=Ruiz de Burton |first= María Amparo |title= Who Would Have Thought It? |editor1-last= Sánchez |editor1-first= Rosaura |editor2-first= Beatrice |editor2-last= Pita |place= Houston |publisher= Arte Público |year= 1995 |pages= vii-lxv |isbn= 978-1558850811 }}.
• Burton, Mrs. H S (1872), Who Would Have Thought It? A Novel ..., Philadelphia: J.B. Lippincott & Co., OCLC 16651194. Republished as Ruiz de Burton, María Amparo (1995), Sánchez, Rosaura; Pita, Beatrice (eds.), Who Would Have Thought It?, Houston: Arte Público, pp. vii–lxv, ISBN 978-1558850811.

So in the example you give, you'd put something like:

• Kanner L (1943). "Autistic disturbances of affective contact". Nerv Child. 2: 217–50. Reprinted as Kanner L (1968). "Autistic disturbances of affective contact". Acta Paedopsychiatr. 35 (4): 100–36. PMID 4880460.

Would that be a problem?

On the other hand, I guess there are times when such an option would be nice. Say for instance with:

• {{citation|last= Coetzee |first= J. M. |quotes= no |chapter= Introduction |title= The Confusions of Young Törless |others= By Robert Musil |others= Trans. Shaun Whiteside |place= New York |publisher= Penguin |year= 2001 |pages= v-xiii}}.
• Coetzee, J. M. (2001), "Introduction", The Confusions of Young Törless, Trans. Shaun Whiteside, New York: Penguin, pp. v–xiii {{citation}}: Unknown parameter |quotes= ignored (help).

This last example, by the way, is taken straight from the MLA Handbook (sixth edition, section 5.6.9). At least in MLA style, "Introduction" should not be in quotation marks. (Ugh, and the "others=" field doesn't seem to work. Grr Grr.) --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 08:24, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I have proposed a fix for this problem in Template talk:Citation, in its section 'Restoring support for "quotes=no" to {{Cite journal}}'. Comments are welcome. Eubulides (talk) 00:03, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Reprints and errata should not subvert the title field: one should either

1. Use the real title of the work
2. Omit it for brevity, but add explanatory text outside of the template.

Further, the template does not follow MLA & there is no reason to treat some chapters differently from others. I see no benefit of having a quotes parameter, as the reasons for it have mostly been that people want to put poor metadata into the template. --Karnesky (talk) 16:53, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining; as can be seen in TT:Citation, I was convinced by the argument that we should not subvert the title= field. However, please see that discussion for a remaining problem: the reprint year (1968 in the Kanner example above) is formatted too confusingly in the current version. Eubulides (talk) 18:04, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Reprinted as

Slightly divergent topic, but the "Reprinted as" usage introduces some ambiguity. Is the reference the reprint or the original? Better usage would be "As reprinted in" or "Also reprinted in" (or reissued) as applicable. This may only matter in cases of inaccurate or incomplete reprints, but they do happen.LeadSongDog (talk) 16:29, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree - Misplaced Pages:Citing sources#Cite the place where you found the material clearly says "It is improper to obtain a citation from an intermediate source without making clear that you saw only that intermediate source. For example, you might find some information on a Web page that is attributed to a certain book. Unless you look at the book yourself to check that the information is there, your source is really the Web page, which is what you must cite. The credibility of your article rests on the credibility of the Web page, as well as the book, and your article must make that clear." Based on that, if the reference used was the reprint, then the correct citation is to the reprint in its full form - the fact that it is a reprint from 25 years later is immaterial. For example:

• {{cite journal |author= ] |title= Autistic disturbances of affective contact |journal= Acta Paedopsychiatr |volume=35 |pages=100–36 |year=1968 |issue=4 | pmid=4880460}}

• Kanner L (1968). "Autistic disturbances of affective contact". Acta Paedopsychiatr. 35 (4): 100–36. PMID 4880460.

RossPatterson (talk) 17:38, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

No, Misplaced Pages:CITE#SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT doesn't say or imply that one cannot mention reprints. All it says is that one must say where you got it. It does not prohibit you from saying where else to get it from. It would be bizarre for Misplaced Pages to prohibit the common practice of listing multiple places where one can get the article from. Eubulides (talk) 09:52, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like we're all agreeing. The citation should make it clear which version the article was based on, but additional citation of another version is of incremental value. The other versions cited should not appear to have been checked unless they actually were checked. My 12 November post was about how to express which version was consulted and which was incremental.LeadSongDog (talk) 20:30, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

• Hmm, well, I'm not sure I agree that a citation should say which version was consulted. Please see the Posey et al. example in Template talk:Citation #Multiple instances of reference, a citation that points to four versions. This sort of thing is standard in medical articles. There's no real need for the citation to say which version was actually consulted, unless the versions differ significantly with respect to the claims being sourced.
• For more on this subject, please see Misplaced Pages talk:Reliable sources (medicine-related articles) #PubMed Central manuscripts vs final versions, where the consensus was that it's OK to also cite PubMed Central manuscripts, even though they often have minor editorial differences from the final versions.

Eubulides (talk) 21:28, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

• Well, that sounds slapdash to me. It would certainly be unacceptable in my discipline. You don't cite a work you haven't consulted: that's dishonest. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 21:31, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd agree it's sloppy, though perhaps not demonstrably dishonest. Still, the idea that we might base content on one version and cite another is something we should strive to avoid, just in case the divergences between versions pertain to the basis of statements in our articles. At Template talk:Citation#Multiple instances of reference, it is clear that the differences are sometimes significant. We should not ignore this fact.LeadSongDog (talk) 06:59, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Can we add archiveurl= before Werdnabot archives the discussion for the fourth time?

Support for |archiveurl= and |archivedate= parameters a la {{cite web}} has been requested several times in the last year, but hasn't been implemented, and then of course the discussion gets archived and forgotten. {{editprotected}} Can some administrator please insert the following lines after "|amp = {{{use ampersand before last author|}}}":

  |OriginalURL = {{#if:{{{archiveurl|}}}|{{{url|}}}}}
  |ArchiveDate= {{{archivedate|}}}

RossPatterson (talk) 21:49, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

It sounds reasonable. Could we leave it a day in case anyone has any comments or suggestions. I have one comment, based on a quick skim of the code. In {{cite web}} the parameter IncludedWorkURL will equal archiveurl if defined. However your code doesn't do that. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 22:19, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

That code's not going to work properly - the archive URL won't be displayed. If I recall correctly, you'll also need to change the URL parameter - check Cite Journal to see how that template handles it. Martin (Smith609 – Talk) 15:10, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I'll take another stab at it tomorrow evening. RossPatterson (talk) 03:24, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

I give up. The {{Citation/core}} parameters are too obtuse, I don't know what they mean (despite having documented some of them!). RossPatterson (talk) 04:06, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Still needed. I am currently adding the "archived from the original" manually when using the template. It would be great to have it in the template. - ¢Spender1983 (talk) 14:04, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

I've set up the sandbox so that it ought to support the parameter. Please test it; if it works, I'll update the template. Martin (Smith609 – Talk) 15:57, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

I tested it on User:¢Spender1983. There are a couple of problems. It adds carriage returns between successive authors and too much text is now bold. - ¢Spender1983 (talk) 13:21, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Still needed. - ¢Spender1983 (talk) 02:16, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Looks better now - I didn't clean the sandbox before making my edits. Another request to ensure that it's fully tested in all situations; if it works, prod me until I activate the edits. Martin (Smith609 – Talk) 15:14, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

The sandbox version appears to work to me. Can you activate the edits? - ¢Spender1983 (talk) 03:32, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I would really appreciate having this functionality.  Skomorokh  16:05, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

 Done - apologies for the delay. Martin (Smith609 – Talk) 20:57, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

use proper typography

Couldn’t this template use correct typography, p.e. in its quotation marks? And also, why use quotation marks at all? Florauomini (talk) 13:39, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps you could be more specific about what you believe is incorrect? The template should be consistent with WP:MOS#Quotation marks and WP:MOSTITLE#Quotation marks. So, for example, curly quotes are not used due to difficulties they create, as explained in WP:MOS#Quotation marks. --RL0919 (talk) 15:33, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Should Citation bot always add ISSNs?

In response to my complaint that the Citation bot was adding ISSNs to all the journal-article citations in the Mango article, the bot's maintainer replied "I think I recall discussing this issue at length at Template talk:Cite journal a number of months ago, and the consensus was that ISSNs were valuable and should be added wherever possible." I just now read Template talk:Cite journal/Archive 2009 May #ISSNs are useful, independent of DOIs and see no consensus at all for a bot adding ISSNs to all uses of {{cite journal}}. On the contrary, the summary of that discussion focuses on whether the bot should remove ISSNs, deciding (correctly in my opinion) that the bot should leave them alone. I see no consensus for adding ISSNs everywhere.

I shudder to think of what an article like Autism would look like if ISSNs were added for each citation. For one thing, many of the ISSNs would be duplicated, as the article cites journals like the Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders. For another, the ISSNs would often be inaccurate, as medical journals often have multiple ISSNs (one print, the other electronic) and it's not clear which one should be added automatically. Adding ISSNs may be helpful in some fields, but in medicine it is definitely counterproductive, as the ISSNs take up valuable screen real estate and contribute almost zero useful info that is not already easily available, resulting in a net negative for the encyclopedia. They should not be added automatically by a bot. Eubulides (talk) 17:35, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

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