Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 04:59, 8 December 2009

Visual arts Unassessed

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Visual arts, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of visual arts on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Visual artsWikipedia:WikiProject Visual artsTemplate:WikiProject Visual artsvisual arts ??? This article has not yet received a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.

Possible addition

Granted, this might seem like a really trivial addition, but the images from the comic book Green Lantern/Green Arrow #89, reproduced here, was part of a run which is described here which, "n comic book terms, The Sixties were over - The Silver Age of Comics had ended". Not sure if it is important enough for inclusion, but it was broadly discussed in the field at the time. John Carter (talk) 22:49, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

How about the crucifixion of Wolverine on an X-shaped cross from X-Men 244? (and no, I didn't know the issue number offhand.) DS (talk) 22:57, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

That's the very definition of fan cruft. Crucifixion in art shouldn't be a trivia repository for X was crucified in episode Y of Z. Discussion of the significance of crucifixion in various media is more than sufficient encyclopedic content. Gustave Pennington (talk) 20:26, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

True, true. I wasn't completely serious, but of course my tone wasn't conveyed. I really should get around to writing up my guidelines for "in popuolar culture" sections: the key criterion is that it be a work of art/popular culture about the subject/phenomenon. DS (talk) 20:11, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually I think that this comic book might be a worthy addition to the article. It clearly has a character based off of Jesus. Its biblical allusions, like the character washing his hands of the matter, show that this comic book tells a story that obviously comes from the biblical account of Jesus' crucifixion. If Madonna and Gorgoroth are included in this article, this comic book should appear there as well. Gary (talk) 06:06, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Music?

Any thoughts on including music here? A possible way to deal with Madonna et al, and, after all, there's a notable history of Easter oratorios, requiems, etc. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:36, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Cracking idea - and I should have some sources for that --Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:28, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

I've started the section, but I'll need your help with those sources to see it through. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:37, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Unless they deal specifically with crucifixion, as in the Madonna case, I don't think Easter references belong here.Yzak Jule (talk) 20:41, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

That may be true. I'm a biochemist/neuroscientist, not an art or music historian. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:47, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

There are interesting aspects within christian music where the visual and musical depictions change simultaneously over time, which could be commented on. I'd say to try a small section - if it works, then Crucifixion in music would be a possibility. (Unless there's already an article on the subject under a different title.)--Elen of the Roads (talk) 01:02, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Or, make this page Crucifixion in the arts. There has been essentially no discussion of the new page name. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:17, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Added stuff

Been for a browse thru commons, but I'm crap at formatting (really I am). If someone can lay these images out better, please do. Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:25, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

The "clear" template is a very useful trick. (Taught to me, as I recollect, by the editor who wrote much of the original anime stuff at Crucifixion, ironically!) --Tryptofish (talk) 22:29, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Better, thanks. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:10, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Guidelines

We need to set some guidelines as to what sort of stuff can be included. I've been working on some general suggestions in my userspace. DS (talk) 20:08, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for working on that! I've given it a quick look, and offhand, one thing occurred to me. By existing ways of doing things here, so much rests, appropriately, on RS and secondary sources. So, there may be times when a reliable secondary source establishes notability for a particular pop culture item within a subject, even if the pop culture item was, on its face, largely concerned with something else. Thus, existing policies for sourcing remain important for this issue, and you might want to flesh out how your proposal extends or restricts those. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:29, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Anime section

Lets get this out of the way; Who feels anime should have its own subsection in this new article? Personally I find it irrelevant and that the arguments from the old Crucifixion article still stands: It can be mentioned, but does not need its own section with images. Until its clear that the consensus from Crucifixion has changed I will revert it if its re-added to the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Greenelburrito (talk • contribs) 11:20, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

The current phrasing shows how anime is a distinct subsection of film-and-TV, but one in which crucifixion doesn't have much real meaning or symbolic value. DS (talk) 16:42, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I rather support keeping the paragraph as is. The quote in particular is relevant, because it establishes that there is no real direct reference in it to the factual crucifixion of Jesus, which isn't really widely believed in that part of the world anyway. John Carter (talk) 17:47, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

We don't need a whole paragraph or section about crucifixion's lack of religious symbolism in anime. Maybe we could have a sentence or two, something like this:

"Crucifixion-like imagery is sometimes used in anime, however, this use is generally not backed by religious symbolism. Rather, crucifixion is simply used as an object from religious fantasy."

The above sentences, are, of course, open to suggestions. I just don't see the need to have a long subsection describing why this use of crucifixion is NOT symbolic. It's like if we were writing an article on Grimm's fairy tales in art, and we spent a substantial part of the article discussing just how loosely Disney movies are based on these fairy tales.Gary (talk) 19:51, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Right now, the sourcing is very inadequate. I have some more substantive sources coming, and will revise the section based on those when I have finished reading them. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:11, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Gary, the anime references are barely relevant, and there doesn't need to be a huge paragraph to explain that. Trying to add in an image is even worse.Yzak Jule (talk) 20:16, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I figured you guys may be interested in a section on Fullmetal Alchemist where it discusses how an image of a crucifixion was altered for the North American market. This edit actually raised some controversy that resulted in this report from ICv2. This is probably more relevant for a pop culture section/article then the paragraph about Sailor Mercury. —Farix (t | c) 20:20, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree, this is the kind of thing that should be added, since it has outside reference and importance.Yzak Jule (talk) 20:42, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

This sounds like an interesting addition. I've heard of other instances of religious references being removed when Japanese media was translated for an American audience, though I can't think of one offhand. Maybe an example of the censorship of crucifix-related imagery, such as this one, could be included. This shouldn't be a whole section or anything like that, maybe a sentence or two. Gary (talk) 22:28, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I've found a webpage with a few examples of the removal of crosses from Nintendo games, which you can see here. The Misplaced Pages article Video games censored by Nintendo of America includes a list of censored games, and many of these involve "religious references" with no citation or other information provided. I would bet many of these are crosses that have been removed. If we can find examples of Christian crosses being removed from games I think we could mention Nintendo in this article. Gary (talk) 00:26, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

One idea, if there are any other significant appearances in Japanese art, is to lump them all together into one section. Maybe something like, "Crucifixion first came to Japan through Christian missionaries. It has been played a role in various aspects of Japanese art, including anime and (fill in the blank)." Maybe the idea of it being seen as "mythic" or fantasy applies to other media as well. John Carter (talk) 00:48, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

I was playing around with the idea of a section on crucifixion imagery from artists originating in non-christian countries for whom the image has no religious meaning at all (positive or negative), but that kind of got too long for a section title. I think there's no harm in leaving sourced anime entries in, the problem isn't that it's too much, it's that the rest of the article needs to grow to match it. Elen of the Roads (talk) 01:05, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Removed - pointless. Crucifixion is also seen in WWE and non anime animation. Its a joke, _ImmortalYawn|Talk —Preceding undated comment added 17:34, 6 December 2009 (UTC).

WP:There is no deadline. And deletion of sourced material should never be done as a minor edit with no edit summary. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:54, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Note, ImmortalYawn deleted the section again, and I have restored it again. There really is no consensus to completely remove this information. Elen of the Roads (talk) 18:06, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Elen's edit (big surprise!). However, a minor clarification: the deletion by ImmortalYawn only happened once (unless there was another deletion a long time ago that I forgot). I commented here, but (contrary to popular opinion) I did not revert. And I expect to completely rewrite that section, with much better sourcing, very soon. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:15, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying. I have amended my note accordingly. Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:03, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

OK colleagues, I have completely rewritten the section, adding extensive referencing. I believe that, now, there is a substantial basis in reliable secondary sources that not only make the discussion of anime more accurate, but also establish notability and relevance to the subject of the page. Editors who have concerns about the material need to engage with the sourcing now provided, according to policy. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:26, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I would suggest using {{Harvnb}} for the shortened references. This will create a link to the primary reference and make it easier from someone checking on them the find which source "Drazen, p. 144." is actually referring to. Example: {{Harvnb|Drazen|2003|p=144}} will produce Drazen 2003, p. 144 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFDrazen2003 (help). —Farix (t | c) 02:03, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Good tip, thanks. (I'm still on a learning curve with some of this stuff.) I'll fix tomorrow if you don't do it first. --Tryptofish (talk) 02:07, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Ridiculous. Removed, as it was only replaced by a bigger, more ridiculous and more stupid addition after initial removal._ImmortalYawn|Talk 01:40, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Registered editor and IP blanking the section are the same individual. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:48, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Ridiculous and removed , Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Crucifixion_in_art#Possible_addition for exactly how stupid. _ImmortalYawn|Talk 01:50, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I've filed a WP:RFPP over the content dispute. Edit waring over his is silly. Especially when those responsible for the disruptive edit warring are likely came from SA. —Farix (t | c) 01:56, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Anime is quite a significant artform in certian parts of the world. So it's fairly reasonable to include a mention. If it should have it's own section depends on the quality of the material people are able to dig up.©Geni 03:25, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

full protection, edit warring, consensus

I've fully protected this article for a short time to keep users from edit-warring and reverting changes. Please reach consensus before adding or removing material. In addition, you MUST use an edit summary to explain what you are doing and why on this article, at least in the near future (say, until the end of 2009).

It isn't appropriate to edit war by adding or removing material, even if you are theoretically "right". For instance, if an editor violates these restrictions, drop the stick; you are not justified in reverting the user. Leave it alone, discuss it here, come to a consensus. tedder (talk) 02:22, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

We already came to a consensus about this (which Tryptofish has violated repeatedly but hasn't been reprimanded for at all while everyone else trying to stop him has, hm), so good job wading in blind and making things worse, guy. Yzak Jule (talk) 04:59, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Expand Christian art section

By way of something that would be constructive, I'd like to suggest that interested editors work on expanding the section on Christian art. The historical period it covers is very extensive, and if editors would delve into the scholarly literature on that, I'm pretty sure the section could be expanded about four to five-fold, to beneficial effect. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:49, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

• Unassessed visual arts articles
• WikiProject Visual arts articles