Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 02:23, 12 March 2010

Mutliple article issues

• The use of op-eds as sources for statements of fact in Misplaced Pages's netural voice without attribution.
  • eg. this article from FrontPage Magazine , a source of questionable reliability, is used to state: "The textbooks used for teaching Arab children went beyond the worst excesses of the textbooks of German children under the Nazi regime." **eg. This op-ed in Jerusalem World News is used to support this statement: "On that day Robert F. Kennedy became the first American politician murdered by an Arab terrorist." Note that WP:WTA frowns upon uses the word "Terrorist" is Misplaced Pages's netural voice.
• Other POV statements in Misplaced Pages's neutral voice, not attributed to their authors:
  • eg. "Robert Kennedy’s support for Israel might be appreciated even more if one remembers that his father, Joseph P. Kennedy, was known to make some anti-Semitic remarks. In spite of his antisemitism, Joseph P. Kennedy probably was proud of his son Robert."
  • eg. "The twenty-two year old former football player proved to be mature enough to recognize that a Jewish state could became the only "stabilizing factor" in the region."
• POV thesis of the whole article, which claims that RFK was assssinated for his views on Israel, when this is disputed claim, as there are mutliple theses as to Sirhan Sirhan's motives.

These are just some of the problems. Until these are addressed, I am tagging the article with POV tag. Tiamut 14:00, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

• • Well, main article Robert Kennedy states "In a crowded kitchen passageway, Sirhan Sirhan, a 24-year-old Christian Palestinian-American (who felt betrayed by Kennedy's support for Israel in the June 1967 Six-Day War, which had begun exactly one year before the assassination), opened fire with a .22-caliber revolver and shot Kennedy three times." (highlighted by me). There are more than enough reliable sources to confirm the claim, of course, if we will forget about stupid conspiracy theories.--Mbz1 (talk) 14:55, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
  • IMO it is very important to mention that Robert Kennedy was the first victim of Arab terrorist. As it is seen from this Al-Jazeerah article back in 1968 Americans did not distinguish between Palestinian Arabs and other Arabs. It was the very first wake up call of what was to come. The author of the article clearly states:"The Kennedy assassination was the first case of Middle Eastern “terrorism” on American soil ­ decades before the 1993 and 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center, and before Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaeda became household names."(highlighted by me.--Mbz1 (talk) 15:24, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

The articles you are citing are wrong. The first case of Middle Eastern terrorism were the attacks carried out by the Irgun and Stern (Lehi) gangs, including for example the assassination of Count Folke Bernadotte. That's why you should avoid using unrelible sources like al-jazeerah,com (which is not the same as Al Jazeera by the way) or op-eds in obscure newspapers. Tiamut 18:43, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Oh and other Wikipedi articles are not RS's. If they hve POV problems, we should not duplicate those problems here. Tiamut 18:46, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Were any attacks "Irgun and Stern (Lehi" carried on American soil, maybe they were carried against an American politicians? No? I guess I need to repeat it one more time and make it bold the other part of the statement: As it is seen from this Al-Jazeerah article back in 1968 Americans did not distinguish between Palestinian Arabs and other Arabs. It was the very first wake up call of what was to come. The author of the article clearly states:"The Kennedy assassination was the first case of Middle Eastern “terrorism” on American soil ­ decades before the 1993 and 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center, and before Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaeda became household names."(highlighted by me.Is this wrong again?--Mbz1 (talk) 19:00, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I just realized that the sentence is qualified by "on American soil". As long as the info is attributed to its authors, so that the sentence in the article reads "So-and-so said that these were first act of Middle terrorism on American soil", and the source is not aljazeerah (with an "h"), I guess it should be fine. Could you address the other points I raised as well. Thanks. Tiamut 19:04, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Tiamut, I do not know how to stress strong enough that it is hard for me to write in English, and besides I have no experience in writing such articles. You do. I do not own this article. Please help me to fix it, as you believe it should be fixed. Thanks.--Mbz1 (talk) 19:23, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

I've given you advice on what to do above to bring the article in line with our policies. I'm not so interested in developing this article further, and after your comments about me here and on my talk page, I'm surprised you would even ask for my help. Tiamut 19:38, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Okay, fair enough. I'll try to address the issues you've risen myself, or ask somebody else to help me.--Mbz1 (talk) 19:55, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

I am not sure why those "**eg. "Robert Kennedy’s support for Israel might be appreciated even more if one remembers that his father, Joseph P. Kennedy, was known to make some anti-Semitic remarks. In spite of his antisemitism, Joseph P. Kennedy probably was proud of his son Robert."

• • eg. "The twenty-two year old former football player proved to be mature enough to recognize that a Jewish state could became the only "stabilizing factor" in the region." are considered POV. It is from that source. page 77 the last paragraph.--Mbz1 (talk) 20:09, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Claim that Kennedy said a Jewish state would never become communist

Mbz1 keeps reinserting the following passage:

At that time, Robert Kennedy also dismissed the notion that a Jewish state would ever become a Communist state.

But what Robert F. Kennedy actually said was:

"That the people might accept communism or that communism could exist in Palestine is fantastically absurd. Communism thrives on static discontent as sin thrives on idleness. With the type of issues and people involved, that state of affairs is nonexistent. I am as certain of that as of my name."

(source)

Therefore he is clearly talking about Palestine, not any Jewish state. Factsontheground (talk) 02:23, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Removal of Kennedy quote critical of Zionism

Mbz1 has removed the following source quote of RFK with no explanation:

"However, the battle over Palestine was the result of an extraordinary endeavor: an attempt by some European Jewish leaders to implant a large Jewish community in Palestine - which necessarily implied their taking all or part of this land away from the Palestinian Arab people who had been living here for centuries".

(source)

Meanwhile, Mbz1 has kept his cherrypicked pro-Israel quotes. This is an obvious violation of WP:NPOV and suggest that Mbz1 is using this article purely to push a certain point of view, not to present a balanced, encylopedic overview of the subject. Factsontheground (talk) 02:23, 12 March 2010 (UTC)