Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 21:42, 14 July 2010

This article was nominated for deletion on July 4 2010. The result of the discussion was speedy keep.

Explanation of the title, a summary

This paragraph in a nutshell: Prime Minister of Lower Saxony is the "official" title and the most widely used title of the Lower Saxon PMs in English

The title of the head of government in Lower Saxony has been extensively discussed on other pages (Talk:Christian Wulff and elsewhere). It has been established that:

• Prime Minister is the term used consistently by the Government of Lower Saxony in official English language publications, for instance on their English language website. The PM's themselves, for instance the incumbent PM David McAllister (who's a native English speaker) is also on record using this title personally in English. The Lower Saxon government has used this title consistently at least for the duration of several years.
• The title Prime Minister is also used when referring to the Lower Saxon PM by quality English language sources like The Independent, The Guardian, BusinessWeek, the New York Times, the BBC, Financial Times and the English edition of Deutsche Welle
• "Prime Minister of Lower Saxony" is the most widely used term in English: While "Prime minister of lower saxony" returns 38,200 Google hits, "premier of lower saxony" returns 32,100 Google hits and "minister president of lower saxony" returns 7,180 Google hits. While all terms may be used, Prime Minister of Lower Saxony is both the title used officially by the government in English, and the most widely used term in the English language.
• Lower Saxony is considered a (partly souvereign) state in its own right, it was created before it became part of the federal republic, and it's not a province/administrative entity (more here).
• The German term Ministerpräsident is the standard German term for what we call Prime Minister in English; the Germans refer to foreign Prime Ministers (for instance de:Silvio Berlusconi) as Ministerpräsidenten. The terms Ministerpräsident, Prime Minister, Premier and so forth all have the same meaning, i.e. the first of the ministers, the one presiding over/chairing the government. Prime Minister is the most common term for a head of government in English.

A personal comment: I think there is no other acceptable solution than to use the official title, which is Prime Minister, in this case. I do understand that some contributors don't like the government's choice of title, but it would be original research to overturn what is the official title and most common title in English. I suggest writing letters to newspapers and the Lower Saxon government if you are unhappy with their use of the title Prime Minister. Josh Gorand (talk) 23:01, 2 July 2010 (UTC) 

The conflict has not been resolved, independent of any petition drive to the government of Lower Saxony. The state constitution uses the term "Minister-President", rather than Prime Minister. Surely, as the highest legal document, it would have some credence?

Furthermore, contrary to the impression you're trying to create here, nothing has been "established". It is your opinion that quality newspapers have only used the term "Prime Minister". They have equally used "Premier", especially in recent days. Therefore, the term "Premier" is hardly original research. However, if you must insist on sticking to the official version, then it should be "Minister-President", as it has been firmly established by the Lower Saxon constitution. Leicchaucer (talk)

We have exhausted all arguments and possibilities, and so far no valid arguments in favour of Minister-President over the officially used term Prime Minister has been presented. As far as the translation of the constitution is concerned (the constitution per se is only written in German, the translation is not a legal document at all), see Misplaced Pages:No original research#Primary, secondary and tertiary sources. The translation of that document is a primary source, and contradicts the actual, consistent usage of the state government and countless reliable sources. Josh Gorand (talk) 23:55, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Typical legalese, as per usual with you. Fine. I'm asking for a vote by the Misplaced Pages administrators. Until then, kindly refrain from posting unnecessary copyright notices. I just think that actions like that contravene the spirit you purport to act in. Remember: Wiki is not about who uses the most legal language (usually not the most popular option in the community...trust me, I would know!), but about reasoning with each other. I doubt that you can (on your own) decide that a certain term is more valid than the other. But yeah, go ahead, make my day - I'm asking for a proper vote on this by experienced users. I shall defer to their judgment.Leicchaucer (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:07, 3 July 2010 (UTC).

• This is all about providing reliable sources to back up one's edits. You are not providing reliable sources that demonstrate there is any reason to overturn the usage of the state government. Hence, there is also no reason for a vote (and as far as I'm aware, votes are generally not used on Misplaced Pages). Josh Gorand (talk) 00:23, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Please continue this discussion at Talk:Premier of Lower Saxony#Copyright violation and POV fork

. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 09:06, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Why? It is relevant here as well as it is not merely about the fork article. Str1977 11:16, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Who has the authority to sum up sections "in a nutshell"?

Although I prefer "prime minister" too, the claim is false and basically nonsensical. There is no official English title to a German state government office - the only official title is the German one. But "prime minister" seems to me the most common English equivalent. All supposed "substance" reasons for rejecting it have turned out to be plainly bogus. Str1977 11:13, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

PS. The Lower Saxon state government has no say in titles of WP articles nor in English usage. The constitution is in German and hence doesn't use English terms at all. Str1977 11:16, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Anyone has the authority to sum up one's own paragraph in a nutshell, to help people who don't have the time to read everything. It's not summing up the entire section, merely the first paragraph.

I totally agree that there is no "proper" official English title, as the official title of course is in German. However, the state government has an English website, and uses English translations of their titles on other formal occasions. The title they use in English is Prime Minister. While they have no "authority" over usage here, a government website a very relevant source, and I think we would need good reasons to chose a different title than the government consistently uses in English. In this case, the Lower Saxon government merely uses the most common English term for a head of government. Lots of governments translate their PM's titles into Prime Minister in English, although the native title means something else. I also agree that Ministerpräsident and Prime Minister really means the same, i.e. the one presiding over/chairing the government, the first minister, and Germans use the term Ministerpräsident when referring to foreign heads of government as well. Josh Gorand (talk) 14:53, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Okay about the "summary" - it seemed all to "claiming official nature" to me.

What matters in this issue is what English term is commonly used for the office. The government website is a relevant source for this but it doesn't on its own decide the issue. And as you know, I tend to favour Prime Minister as well. Str1977 08:31, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

PS. I am glad that no harm came from the travesty that the AfD on this article constituted. Str1977 08:33, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

The user who nominated the page for deletion, went on to copy and paste parts of its content into a "List of Ministers-President of Lower Saxony" after his AFD failed. This is the second time this has happened, the POV fork "Premier of Lower Saxony" has now been deleted and redirected as well. Josh Gorand (talk) 16:24, 5 July 2010 (UTC) 

There is certainly the question whether it is good style to nominate a page for deletion in the context of an ongoing discussion, but calling it a travesty seems a bit strong.

By the way, the vote that has arisen out of the the discussion on ] is taking place here.Bibfile (talk) 06:58, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Move to Minister President of Lower Saxony

Unless there is objection, I intend to move the article to Minister President of Lower Saxony, per the constitution of Lower-Saxony. The Minister President assumes the role of a prime minister in a parliamentary system, but the office is being called Minister President (just as the German Chancellor is not being called "Prime minister").  Cs32en Talk to me  21:42, 14 July 2010 (UTC)