Misplaced Pages

Explanation

Some explanation for your ill-founded, inaccurate, and highly irreponsible and unprofessional commentary would be helpful. For example, who is this "entire group" you refer to, where have discussions stalled "due to calls for someone's head", and where are you getting this information? Since I'm unaware of any such calls for anyone's head, or pointing of fingers on Wiki, it appears that you are bringing off-Wiki discussions to Wiki, and it would be beneficial for all to be aware of your sources, particularly in light of your highly improper disparaging of FAC reviewers, who are not responsible for the copyvio of an arb. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:34, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

So you believe it's appropriate then that articles with copyright problems make it through the featured article process? And you think the various attacks against that arb were an appropriate way to handle the situation? Shell 20:49, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Shell, I am sure you don't think that baiting and suggesting that somebody thinks something preposterous is an appropriate mode of communication. Whether or not Sandy is being perfectly civil, you can be civil to help de-escalate the situation. On the one hand, it is not fair to blast an arbitrator for making a mistake that anybody could make (and many do). On the other hand, it is not fair to lay blame on the featured article reviewers. Can we all please focus on solving the problem at hand: Misplaced Pages editors need more guidance on what is acceptable writing, and what is unacceptable with regard to paraphrasing, plagiarism and copyright violation. Not everybody has received graduate level training in academic (or encyclopedia) style writing. It is very saddening to see two good faith editors arguing over who's to blame. Blame is an utterly worthless concept. Jehochman 21:00, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

That was absolutely the intent of my comment. I find it very distasteful that certain editors have chosen to attack another editor in this manner for something that happens literally every day; I think focusing on education and review is a much more appropriate way to address those concerns. Shell 21:13, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Ah, I see what I did there. "FAC group" was a very poor choice of words; for someone not following the conversation across many areas of Misplaced Pages that could easily be misconstrued. I was referring to a small subset of editors who have made voracious, nasty remarks during these discussions and not the general group of people who participate in the FAC area. I sincerely apologize for any implications caused by my shorthand. Shell 21:11, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

That doesn't add up, since you quite specifically mentioned all of FAC several times, including "you do realize there was a co-author, several reviewers and the entire group at the FAC review who looked over the article and either missed or misunderstood the copying issue? That's a pretty large group of editors who are working on what are supposed to be Misplaced Pages's best articles - it's enough to seriously concern me that we may have a much bigger problem than anyone's willing to admit." And "what exactly are the pack of editors at FAC really doing during these article reviews if something so apparently obvious is completely missed". That is quite clearly aimed at putting this on all of FAC, disregarding that the support from a reviewer who said she had followed the development of the article was an arb. It seems that you are the only one looking for "someone's head" and where to cast blame, no one at FAC is failing to recognize a problem that is Wiki-wide, and none of this unseemly finger pointing behavior has been seen at FAC, where we set about looking for solutions. I can see no reasonable interpretation for all of your words, and your unseemly conduct here, than you looking to blame all of FAC for what was Rlevse's mistake. I find your behavior quite disturbing for an arb. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:09, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Well if editors who usually review FAC realize that this is a serious problem and have plans to address it, that would certainly alleviate my concerns in that regard. I believe you're missing the parts in those same diffs where I specifically addressed Rlevse's mistake and expressed concern that many editors on Misplaced Pages seem to have similar misunderstandings (note the bit about a co-author and other editors who also missed it for example). I don't think those misunderstandings call for the way Rlevse was treated by some editors and I hope that by educating more and reviewing already existing work, we can both improve the project and avoid such nasty blow-ups when errors are encountered. This isn't about blame, it's about discussing what happened and how things can move forward without rancor. Please remember that you're only looking at a small piece of the picture here - you're only pulling diffs from comments in relation to Giano's attacks and conspiracy theories; perhaps that might not be the entire perspective on the subject. Shell 22:24, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Maybe the next time your fingers get ahead of you and you engage in such unseemly conduct, you will inform yourself of the facts beforehand, because maligning volunteers who work at FAC is certainly not going to encourage them to review articles, much less rigorously. Your words-- an arb-- will probably do more damage to Wiki's mainpage than even Rlevse did, by demoralizing hard-working and conscientious volunteers and discouraging them for wanting to review at all. It's not like they get paid for it, or ever imagined they needed to go back into the history of an article to discover a copyvio by an arb, supported by another arb. Saying it's not about blame after you most clearly did exactly that isn't holding up, nor are your after-the-fact excuses for your clearly inappropriate posting. If you're too upset to post, you should step away from the computer for a while. If you're in the slightest inclined to do the right thing, you might go over to WT:FAC and issue an apology. A real one-- not one full of excuses. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:31, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

You mean kind of like you need to do now? Shell 22:31, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Deflection. Obvious. Not biting. Since you seem to think it's so easy, here; make yourself useful, get all of those books, and help the nominator, because a FAC reviewer (one of the many you maligned and now seem to think *I* owe an apology) spent a *lot* of time doing her job. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:40, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Actually I was referring to "If you're too upset to post, you should step away from the computer for a while." Whether or not you want to apologize for your strident attacks here is up to you. If you're unwilling to accept my apology and explanation for the comments you took out of context, there's very little else I can do for you here. While I choose not to work at FAC because of certain personalities, I do frequently review articles for people on request due to my access to a wonderful library or 5 and thanks to the wonderful folks at Copyright Cleanup, checking for close-paraphrasing, direct lifts and other similar mistakes is already part of my process. Shell 22:48, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I don't much care what you're referring to. What is clear is that rather than issue an apology to the FAC reviewers you maligned, you're trying to deflect the issue on to me. Whether or not you want to apologize for your attacks on them is up to you. Fortunately, you "choose not to work at FAC"-- we all seem to understand we're volunteers. YMMV. Normally, when an arb engages in the kind of unseemly conduct you have, they step down so as not to bring ill repute onto the entire Committee, since there is no body who might review your conduct. I guess since you won't be issuing an apology, we can't expect your resignation anytime soon, either. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:55, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Well yes, you've made it quite clear you're not interested in listening to me here. I assume you also missed the sincere apology bit just above since you're still claiming I haven't bothered rather than noticing it was the first thing I did when I realized my mistake. But I do appreciate you taking the time to underscore my point about the willingness to attack other editors for mistakes rather than discuss the actual issues. Shell 23:01, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

I could have sworn I already mentioned that deflection doesn't work on me, but since you seem to be of the (mistaken) impression that I'm so upset, I must be so beside myself that I failed to mention that. I had nothing to do with that FAC-- the apology you owe isn't to me. It's to all the FAC reviewers you maligned. Your first response was an excuse-- and one that didn't hold water, since you clearly were referring to all the good faith, hard working reviewers, and shifting blame for the mistake from the person who made it to the reviewers who didn't detect it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:20, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

You're welcome to your opinion of my comments; if you choose not to believe my explanation and continue to take my comments out of context or want to assume my apology was only directed at you, that's your right. Shell 23:41, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that small subset of editors will eat you alive. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 21:31, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Lol - I love that picture. I imagine I'd taste good in a Hollandaise sauce. Shell 21:41, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

There is no need for the Hollandaise. However, in light of this evidence that you irresponsible and unprofessional, I'm going to have to let you go. Please pack up your office at your earliest possible convenience. Dixen (talk) 22:01, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Doh! Shell 22:05, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

User talk:NYyankees51

The above user is asking (by using an unblock template) if you received his WP:ARBCOM#BASC case, which he said he sent 9 days ago, and has not had any confirmation of its receipt.  Ronhjones  22:31, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Since I was involved in the SPI, I am recused from reviewing this particular case. However, it has been received and I will remind the list that it needs an answer. Shell 23:02, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

I will inform NYyankees51 that it is indeed pending, thanks.  Ronhjones  00:22, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the help! Shell 00:23, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Ping

You've got mail. T. Canens (talk) 03:59, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Replied. If that's confusing in any way, please let me know. Shell 05:13, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Welcome To the Elections

Dear Shell Kinney, thank you for nominating yourself as a candidate in the 2010 Arbitration Committee elections. On behalf of the coordinators, allow me to welcome you to the election and make a few suggestions to help you get set up. By now, you ought to have written your nomination statement, which should be no more than 400 words and declare any alternate or former user accounts you have contributed under (or, in the case of privacy concerns, a declaration that you have disclosed them to the Arbitration Committee). Although there are no fixed guidelines for how to write a statement, note that many candidates treat this as an opportunity, in their own way, to put a cogent case as to why editors should vote for them—highlighting the strengths they would bring to the job, and convincing the community they would cope with the workload and responsibilities of being an arbitrator.

You should at this point have your own questions subpage; feel free to begin answering the questions as you please. Together, the nomination statement and questions subpage should be transcluded to your candidate profile, whose talkpage will serve as the central location for discussion of your candidacy. If you experience any difficulty setting up these pages, please follow the links in the footer below. If you need assistance, on this or any other matter (including objectionable questions or commentary by others on your candidate pages), please notify the coordinators at their talkpage. If you have followed these instructions correctly, congratulations, you are now officially a candidate for the Arbitration Committee. Good luck! Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 15:36, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

v t e Arbitration Committee Election 2019 candidate: Shell Kinney Candidate statement (create) Questions for the candidate (create) Discuss this candidate (create)

Questions from Lar

Hi. Best of luck in your upcoming (re?) trial by fire. As in previous years I have a series of questions I ask candidates. This year there are restrictions on the length and number of questions on the "official" page for questions, restrictions which I do not agree with, but which I will abide by. I nevertheless think my questions are important and relevant (and I am not the only person to think so, in previous years they have drawn favorable comment from many, including in at least one case indepth analysis of candidates answers to them by third parties). You are invited to answer them if you so choose. I suggest that the talk page of your questions page is a good place to put them and I will do so with your acquiescence (for example, SirFozzie's page already has them, as do most other candidates). Your answers, (or non-answers should you decide not to answer them), that will be a factor in my evaluation of your candidacy. Please let me know as soon as practical what your wish is. Thanks and best of luck. ++Lar: t/c 18:56, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

I'd have no problem with that. I thought the restriction this year was a bit odd - I understand the concern about overwhelming participants with questions, but at the same time, it seems like a rather harsh limit. Shell 19:37, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Bonus points for actually copying them over before I got round to it, you're the first candidate this year to do that :) ++Lar: t/c 22:12, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Lol. I actually have a bit of extra time this weekend and know I'll be able to give questions the attention they deserve. Since you thoughtfully provided a link to your questions, I figured I'd get a start on things. Shell 22:31, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

• Bulleted list item

You didn't answer the question

Shell, I asked you specifically about sanctioning an editor for civil comments made on the case pages, and you didn't really respond to it. JWB's finding contained six diffs which were from the PD talk page, out of 13 total. That is nearly half his evidence, so it is a very significant portion of the finding.

Furthermore, I am concerned about this statement: "At that time I was not involved in drafting the case and did not save diffs in my notes that might have been better than those eventually used in the finding." So are you saying that you saw more diffs but didn't save them, or you think you might have seen diffs? If you saw the diffs and they were substantial enough to warrant a finding, then isn't your responsibility to track them down and provide them? How are editors supposed to interpret a finding where the (purportedly) more serious offenses are not provided, and in their place is half a dozen mostly civil diffs which were argumentation on the case itself?

You also write "However, whether or not we were able to pick the best examples, the underlying principle still remains the same." On what do you base this assertion? In the two diffs specifically questioned by JWB (), there was little or no evidence of incivility, particularly not to the level of a committee finding, and particularly not when those comments came on a case page where misconduct by other editors was being discussed. Your response is basically to acknowledge that they do not support the finding ("it's unfair to look at two diffs given as examples in an ArbCom finding and decide the finding is inappropriate.") Those two diffs represent 15% of the evidence, and a quick look at some of the others reveals that the number which don't support the finding might be even higher. In fact, several of them were JWB defending himself against baseless accusations that he had a vendetta.

The basic issue here is, if diffs do not represent the finding, they should not be included; and if there are "better" diffs out there that you remember reading, then you should take the time to provide them in the finding. At best, this seems to be very sloppy drafting; at worst, you sanctioned an editor unfairly based on vaguely recalled diffs which can't even be defended because you didn't present them. ATren (talk) 14:51, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

ATren, I understand your concerns here, but as we've found, we have a fundamental disagreement over areas of the Climate Change case. Where I see diffs that evidence a pattern of combative and personalized disputes, you see civil talk page comments - and that's okay; Misplaced Pages works because people of different viewpoints can all contribute their ideas.

My comment "At that time I was not involved in drafting the case and did not save diffs in my notes that might have been better than those eventually used in the finding." refers to me having taken rather detailed notes during my review of the evidence and editors involved, but not making a note of which diffs I looked at that caused me to make that particular note. I realize now that even if I'm not drafting a case, I ought to keep those diffs around as I find them just in case.

"However, whether or not we were able to pick the best examples, the underlying principle still remains the same." means that the Committee members voting in the case reviewed the editor (whether by using diffs provided in evidence, or the reams of talk page discussions or their own method of investigation) and all came to the conclusion that there was problematic behavior. We could say the same thing, with no diffs at all, and it would still be just as true. ArbCom (thankfully) isn't a court where we toss out things because XYZ procedure wasn't followed to the letter, so while I respect your concerns that the diffs provided weren't the best examples, I have to disagree with your assertion that it was either unfair or inappropriate. Shell 15:09, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Shell, you call them "talk page diffs", but in fact they were on the case talk pages, which is a completely different situation. On case pages, are we not expected to present and argue evidence, even as it pertains to other editors? And in this particular case, several diffs presented are JWB's response to others calling his participation a "vendetta" (a completely unsupported claim), so your selection of his responses is perplexing even as some of the participants on that thread were not sanctioned. You have not addressed these issues.

As for the other arbs voting for the finding, well, those arbs are not running, and if (when) they run again, I assure you they will be presented with a similar question, namely why they voted on a finding that was so poorly supported (even you seem to acknowledge that). This in fact reveals one of the weaknesses of arbcom, in that many arbs rely on the judgment of the drafting arb without deep investigation of their own, which means the arbitrator drafting the finding must be particularly careful in getting it right.

But this is about your candidacy. It seems that you have admitted to not being particularly thorough in providing the diffs which caused you to draft this finding, and rather than digging them up you filled in with case page diffs. This admission is good, because it's something which you notably refused to do when the case was ongoing, and in the weeks after. But now that you've acknowledged this, perhaps you can make it right and go back and find those diffs which you misplaced, and present them here, to demonstrate that your judgement was sound? I don't intend for this to be a rehashing of the case, but in light of your seeming admission here that there was more significant evidence which weighed in your decision but which was not presented, I think it would be worthwhile to see what that evidence was. If mistakes were made, they should be correctable; it is a Wiki, after all. :-) ATren (talk) 15:32, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Mother Mary an Jozef, man... at some point you have to stop going on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on about this stuff. I'm also extremely pissed off at how the arbs handled (or more to the point, failed to handle) this case. But you have to know when enough is enough. You asked Shell a question, she answered. Let others decide on the suitability of her response. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 16:09, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Boris, these are highly relevant questions for an arb running for re-election. Shell's responses appear to be an admission that (at the very least) this finding could have been better documented. This is a significant admission, and perhaps if it had come during the case or shortly thereafter, I wouldn't be "going on and on" about it now. But in any case, Shell has an opportunity now to resolve it, and I hope she does. She may even earn my vote. ATren (talk) 16:44, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

I know there's been a lot of discussion about this topic, so some things may have gotten lost in the shuffle. No matter what my personal views on an issue, I'm actually not able to go back and make changes to a closed case, nor can I justify the entire Committee's decision on my own. I'm certainly not saying that I believe the diffs I provided were inappropriate, but I respect your opinion that they could have been better - not everyone looks at issues the same way and it's quite likely that different people would choose different diffs to represent the same idea. If you feel strongly that the finding was inappropriate, please open a request for amendment so that your concerns can be reviewed appropriately by the entire Committee. Shell 17:53, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Shell, I'm not asking you to change a finding or retry the case. I am simply asking you to simply provide the diffs which demonstrate your finding but which you admittedly misplaced. It can be done here on this thread, or even on a subpage and linked. Providing those diffs would demonstrate that your judgement (if not your execution) was sound. It would also allow JWB to know exactly what diffs influenced you in your finding, in case he should decide to appeal.

It would have been nice if this had been dealt with during the case, but you didn't respond then, and now that you have revealed new details about your research (namely the missing diffs which influenced you), I think you should find those diffs and present them. I can even help you research if you like -- do you have a general sense of which articles or talk pages you examined, and when? ATren (talk) 01:22, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

During at least the period Jan-May 2010, you effectively became a single purpose account, focused almost entirely on debating/arguing on the Climate change sanctions noticeboard and on the talk pages of (usually) administrators with whom you disagreed. Many of the comments you made accused administrators of bias and demanded they remove themselves from the topic. You appear to have ignored their responses. Although the FoF only includes a handful of examples from January 2010, it is easy to find many more in a similar vein, made to other administrators and in other months., , , , , , , , ,

This seemingly relentless focus on the perceived biases/shortcomings of others is classic battlefield conduct. Repeatedly casting aspersions is not only profoundly uncivil but also a personal attack. Since the case closed, you have not shown the slightest insight into why your conduct may have been damaging to the encyclopedia and the collegial atmosphere it nurtures. Instead, you have pursued your "bias" agenda by: awarding yourself a "whistleblower's barnstar", characterising your actions as crusading; and taking up the cudgels on the talk pages of at least three arbitrators. You have even inserted yourself in the current election in an attempt to find a soapbox for your grievances.

Now it may well be that the greater clarity which this comment provides will enable you to reflect on what went wrong during the Spring and help you to move on. I hope so because, whether you like the description or not, continually beating the drum is tendentious and a further example of not listening to what others are saying.  Roger 09:05, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

FYI

Hi, I saw your nutshell comment at the top. Can't help you with the connection stuff that's between you and your ISP and of course you computer. But the 1 problem (the number one) I can. You need to clean your keyboard. You can buy compressed air and see if that helps. If it doesn't pop then one off your keyboard, easily please, so you don't break any of the prongs that hold it in place. When that is done, clean it there. If that doesn't help then guess what, buy a new keyboard. Or you can go to this step of getting a new keyboard instead of doing everything else, that's up to you. I had this problem, though I knew what caused it (keep drinks far away from your keyboard :) ) If you know what caused this problem email me and let me know and I'll talk to my hubby. He was in the business for 20+ years so he should be able to help. Good luck with your election. I've not decided yet who I'll be voting for. I will read everything though and make my decisions after I do. Question though: Is the voting going to be the same as last year? Thanks in advance. Good luck again Shell, --CrohnieGal 15:20, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the notes. I actually did manage to solve both, but forgot to update my note at the top. It turns out someone thought my keyboard was thirsty and gave it some iced tea :) When they finally owned up, I got a replacement which it turns out I actually like a bit better.

AFAIK the RfC from a few months ago about voting didn't reach an obvious conclusion, so voting is likely to be done the same way as last year. The election coordinators would probably know the details a bit better :) Thanks for the kind thoughts. Shell 18:04, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Can you please fix my bad OTRS answer?

Shell, I didn't answer ticket:2010112110016878 very nicely. Can you please take ownership and send a polite diplomatic new answer to the original email with lots of thank yous and sincerelys? I'll take a break from OTRS for a while. -- Jeandré, 2010-11-21t20:30z

Ouch :) You have a cup of tea and relax; I'll take care of the ticket. Shell 21:12, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Ta. "Calm as Hindu cows, calm as Hindu cows." -- Jeandré, 2010-11-22t04:47z