Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 19:46, 6 January 2011

Welcome to the notability noticeboard
This page is for users seeking advice on notability and whether or not a topic meets Misplaced Pages's criteria for its own article. Sources showing notability, and whether they meet Misplaced Pages's general inclusion criteria, will be examined here. Some topics have specific topic guidelines, which are listed below under "Subject-specific guidelines". To show notability, you should list the key evidence of reputable journals, independently published books, reputable news and media sources, widely reputed measures of recognition, and other reliable independent published sources, which show significant attention being paid by those independent sources to the subject of the proposed article. These are crucial and must be available to support an article, as it is a measure of how much the wider unconnected world has shown significant and likely enduring attention. Sections older than 31 days archived by MiszaBot II. Click here to purge this page (For help, see Misplaced Pages:Purge) Shortcut WP:N/N
Quick introduction to common criteria General inclusion criteria Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia and is selective. Material that isn't "encyclopedic" (not suitable for an encyclopedia) or is "indiscriminate" (non-selective/arbitrary material), may have a problem. Misplaced Pages considers enduring notability. Material that is routine may have a problem. Being "big in the news" or having many references doesn't change this (many things get attention for a brief period but are "just ordinary news"). Events and news material need to be quite significant to be covered. Articles on living people have especially strict rules because it's easy to do harm. Sources must be very high quality, people noted for one event usually get covered in an article on the event not an article on the person, and borderline cases are much more likely to be deleted (especially for minors or where the person is notable for negative reasons). However if they are genuinely agreed notable then the biography will be included and neutral regardless of whether positive or negative. Notability criteria and evidence The acid test is that people who genuinely are uninfluenced by and independent of the subject have decided that it is significant enough to write substantially about, and credible reliable publications feel it is of wide enough interest to write about it too. This could also mean that the subject was chosen over many alternatives or has gained unusually clear recognition such as a major award or position. That interest is what notability is actually trying to assess, not just the fact of coverage itself. Self promotion and routine coverage do not create notability. The test is coverage of a kind that shows actual wider interest by credible published sources, not paid placements, nor the kind of occasional, routine or local coverage that any business or person might get now and then, nor minor and little-recognized awards, nor mere search engine "hits", nor "hearsay" or anecdotal evidence. Notability can set quite a high bar. For example local politicians, most professors, most bands and websites, many schools, most crimes (including violent and widely reported crimes) and most matters in the news (even widely reported and circulated) are "just routine"—most politicians are not especially notable, nor are most schools or companies, most crimes or events. Likewise, minutiae and topics only relevant within a narrow-focus group or community with little or no wider notice or relevance are often not considered notable. Notability is not inherited. For example having famous relatives or clients or being the creator of a well-known item or an item that was created by a well-known entity does not confer notability. The subject of an article must be shown to be notable in its own right, not just due to "reflected light" from others. Subjects noted only for merely filling a role, where the role and not the subject was what really got 'noticed' (i.e. any person or entity that filled that role would have had the same coverage). In many cases the subject fills the role by pure chance or incidentally (bystander witnesses, selected spokesperson, interviewed participant, etc) and gets coverage in that role. Happening to be the occupier of that role won't of itself evidence the subject's notability. Note - some kinds of role may well show notice being taken of the person (CEO, cabinet secretary/minister, etc). Common "reasons" that don't count Articles exist because evidence shows the world at large deems the subject worthy of notice (as described), not just because it is interesting, useful, liked/disliked, some people may want to know about it, etc. The person who created it or their motive is not a deciding factor. Being badly written isn't a factor, we can fix poor writing if actual sources exist. (But actual lack of adequate sources would be a problem.)
Other common inquiries related to article viability For advice on whether the sources for an article are reliable, visit the Reliable sources noticeboard. For concerns regarding the stricter rules applying to articles about living people, visit the Biographies noticeboard. If you want to edit about yourself, or organizations, products, people, or matters having a close personal connection to you, or if you wish to engage in paid editing, you must read the Conflict of interest guideline, and you are urged to ask on this page whether the article is viable before creating it.
Additional notes: For possible non-notability, you should review and summarize the available sources, showing why you feel the criteria are not met. Detailed contents of articles and their quality of writing is not discussed here, and opinions expressed here do not guarantee an article will be kept on Misplaced Pages (ie, editor feedback and not a formal decision).
Click here to start a new discussion

Robert Whealey

It seems like both Robert Whealey and Alice Whealey are basically self-promotion devices, since neither seems to have reached any particular pinnacle of notability. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.196.212.73 (talk) 02:19, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing this out. Yes, I looked into this for (only) 10 minutes, roughly. I think R. Whealey is a (1) historian (2) expert on one particular area (maybe others) -- area => Spanish Civil War. (3) he's retired. So the article, being very short and unassuming, I think is basically reasonable. Whealey doesn't get huge press, but he's a respectable historian, so if students want to learn about the Spanish Civil War, perhaps, they'll benefit from being able to see this article, in my view. I added a few "references" (not truly secondary sources, rather just pointers to indicate he is a historian). I bet if somebody searched harder they'd find his previous publications, with reviews, so if a PROD was conducted fairly, they'd probably decide to keep him. I feel there are others more blatant cases in Misplaced Pages which deserve our attention.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 14:45, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Works of art

I don't understand what is considered notable for works of art. Why do actual artworks, such as paintings or sculptures, etc not have a specific notability guideline? A specific question that I have is 'are individual works of notable artists considered notable'? Swarm 20:23, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

I will venture to state that they can certainly be notable. For instance, is not the Guernica notable? Of course. Same goes for Michaelangelo's David or his Sistine Chapel ceiling.

Having established that WBNA's can in at least these example cases be notable, that still begs the question of whether that is the case for any particular work. But certainly there is no work by Van Gogh or Rembrandt which one would not regard as notable in the context of all art. Are they notable in the context of that artists' overall ouvre? Not all of them are, in the general English language sense of notable. Thus, a little scribble by DaVinci might be worth thousands, but might not be called notable in a discussion of Renaissance art.

However, that use of the word notable is not the same thing as the Misplaced Pages specific use of the term. For purposes of Misplaced Pages, the function of the word notable really relates to whether or not there is a role for the page entry on Misplaced Pages. THus, the standard or threshold for notability must be different and should be lower rather than higher than the standard of notability for paper encyclopedias and also as contrasted to general vernacular use of the term "notable".

In other words, notability for purposes of inclusion in English Misplaced Pages is not the same as notability for purposes of, say, a general review of art or an artist. It is a different dictionary definition, just as a dictionary might read:

cat 1. a feline mammal 2. SLANG a person, generally male; often used in counteras culture such beatnik, musician

THUS

notable 1. distinguished or salient in a field of endeavor 2. CYBERCULTURE/WIKICULTURE sufficiently distinct to warrant a separate article in wikipedia

A final point: splitting sub articles off from a main page can be useful in conceptual organization and clarification of complex topics. I would go so far as to suggest also that[REDACTED] due to its vast capacity has its own logic and that notability should by no means be judged based upon whether a topic is considered notable in other media. Why should dead tree paper magazines and books determine notability to us? Wikimedia is really revolutionizing contemporary thought just as did the Encyclopedists in the Age of Enlightement and the GUtenberg Press. There is no reason not to allow the internal logic of the media promote the message.

That's just IMHO. Personally, I would not mind an article on EVERY piece of art by each and every notable artist, if and only if the articles themselves were well written. Wikidgood (talk) 18:56, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Mariano Hugo of Windisch-Graetz

This possibly autobiographical article has me wondering whether this is a fit subject. It certainly needs a rewrite (by someone not called "Windisch-Graetz").

Previous versions seem to assert that he is the Maltese ambassador to Slovakia, which is one thing, yet this source, indicates that he is the 'ambassador' of a Catholic organisation, not the Government of Malta. Any ideas? Or pointers to where I can find out more? pablo 11:44, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Bass Musician Magazine

This article is written by the publisher of the Magazine, (we/our). I can find no secondary reference to the magazine. Is it actually worth editing or should it be deleted as not notable? Thanks Mark 20:46, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Not notable. It's a free online magazine, one of thousands on the web. No refs, no assertion of notability, written like an advert. I see the publisher was also spamming dozens of musician's articles with links to the site. I'd prod it as non-notable, COI. -- œ 10:30, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Notability of The Maccabeats Article

The Maccabeats (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I put a notability template on this article and raised the issue of whether the article is sufficiently notable on its Talk page. So far, I've captured the attention of only one other editor. I've pretty much expressed my views in that one discussion and have nothing much to add here. Essentially, I don't believe the group meets the criteria in WP:BAND. The group performed one video/song. It captured the attention of a lot of people on the Internet (YouTube) and the mainstream press. That's pretty much it. I thought about proposing the article for deletion but I wanted more discussion first. Unfortunately, although I appreciate the one other editor's responses, no one else has, which means the discussion has been pretty limited.

I will post a message on the article's Talk page and on the one editor's Talk page about this discussion.--Bbb23 (talk) 13:21, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

"Misplaced Pages seeks to create a summary of all human knowledge in the form of an online encyclopedia."

If 3600 hits to this article were redirected to Google for their information, I don't think Misplaced Pages's motto would be fulfilled. DRosenbach 00:59, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

• Comment. The stats probably correlate to the popularity of the video on YouTube. If popularity is all that it takes to establish notability, perhaps the guidelines should be changed. Hey, I like the song, too. It's a lot of fun.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:23, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Is it really just popularity, or is it meaningful notability? It's all the talk in the MO community that this video has tagged millions of hits, and I advance that it's a notable phenomenon, in contrast to, say, Kosher Delight just being a popular restaurant and everyone I know or ever met has heard of it. DRosenbach 02:28, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

• Comment. To me, DRosenbach's comments enter into the realm of WP:EVENT, as opposed to whether the group itself is sufficiently notable. But even if one analyzes the song as an event, it fails the guidelines. At this point it smacks of recentism, it doesn't have "enduring historical significance"; rather it is more in the area of a viral phenomenon.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:49, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Question. Well, DRosenbach and I have had a very pleasant, civil conversation about the article, but we could have remained on the article's Talk page for that. Isn't anyone else going to comment on the issues presented?--Bbb23 (talk) 00:27, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Hmmmmmm. Hmmmmmmm. Can you sense me rubbing my beard here? That is, if I had a beard. I think we live in a culture which celebrates hits, popularity, appearances, and there's little that any of us can do to change this. In our media world, popularity is notability. C'est la vie. Appearances can be important; a hit song can change people's attitudes. I think the best we can do is accurately reflect reality, as best we can; when something a pop-culture phenomenon, that's what we say it is; we shouldn't give it undue emphasis.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 23:32, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Libertarian Party UK

Please cancel this request as the article appears to have been previously deleted for the same reason. JRPG (talk) 16:50, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Newspapers

Are there any more specific guidelines regarding Newspapers like the WP:BK is for books. The Mormon Worker has been tagged (not by me) as having questionable notability since June and I would like to resolve that issue, but I'm not sure what the guidelines regarding Newspapers themselves when they help establish notability for there subjects.

Daedalus Productions, Inc.

DAEDALUS PRODUCTIONS, INC., is a not-for-profit film and television production company established in 1980 by NINA ROSENBLUM and DANIEL V. ALLENTUCK to produce non-fiction television for network, public and cable markets as well as theatrical feature documentaries and dramatic films. Specializing in international co-production, Daedalus has won numerous awards and is a highly respected member of the worldwide non-fiction community. Co-producing partners include CPB, PBS, TBS, HBO, WDR/GERMANY, LA SEPT/FRANCE, CANAL + SPAIN, SBS/AUSTRALIA. NNA ROSENBLUM and DANIEL V. ALLENTUCK, in collaboration with their esteemed board of advisors, are involved with all aspects of production from script to completed film. Daedalus Productions works with the finest talents in the entertainment world to create non-fiction films and television that utilize the best of contemporary scholarship and professional expertise to push the boundaries of the medium, widen its audience, educate and inform. The focus of Daedalus Producgtions, Inc. is human rights, history and culture. LIBERATORS: FIGHTING ON TWO FRONTS IN WWII, produced by Miles Educational Films Inc. and directed by Nina Rosenblum and William Miles was nominated for an Academy Award for feature documentary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Louverture (talk • contribs) 12:02, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Did you have a question relevant to this noticeboard? Fæ (talk) 12:05, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Discogs

This article has references - all of which promote itself. I have proposed it for deletion - but what of the series of articles that depend upon it for notability? I have proposed several for deletion - and risk being blocked for multiple deletion - (I was blocked once for multiple deletions)~. Am I right to propose Discogs for deletion??? in which case a number of articles fall. Mark 20:00, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Discogs? It survived AfD once before.. I don't think you should bother. -- œ 10:53, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Torry Harris Business Solutions

I wanted to post a writeup about Torry Harris Business Solutions, a Bangalore based IT services company, but the article was deleted with one of reasons being quoted as 'Not Notable'. Kindly request your opinion on the notability factor given the following references: The company has been identified as a leader in SOA integration http://www.forrester.com/rb/Research/wave™_emea_soa_systems_integrators,_q2_2009/q/id/46711/t/2

The company has been identified as a Cool Vendor in Application Integration by Gartner http://www.gartner.com/technology/research/offer/cool-vendors.jsp

The company has been listed amongst the top 20 US based Indian IT services companies by a survey by SiliconIndia http://www.siliconindia.com/SI100_2010/it.html

Kindly let me know your views.

Regards,

Bharat.mk (talk) 05:43, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

In my opinion it doesn't stand up to the Primary criteria. The links you provide may identify the company as being successful, but that doesn't necessarily make it notable or 'encyclopedic', the depth of coverage doesn't seem to be there. -- œ 11:00, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Fruit Ninja

With regards to the linked article: Do announcements or reviews count as significant coverage? -- Bk314159 (Talk to me and find out what I've done) 15:57, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Independant reviews I would say yes, announcements not so much. -- œ 10:50, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Chonlathid Krudthiang

As far as I can determine this person is a soccer/football player on the national team from Thailand. I spent about 15 minutes trying to find references for him. At present there are no references. I could not find coverage of him in perhaps 10 Thai (English-language) newspapers and magazines, world magazines. I tried different spellings of his name. It's possible there are articles about him in Thai publications (in Thai) which may be found. My sense is there isn't much published information about him. I'm not sure what the rules regarding WP:Notability are for sports figures; if they plan on a national team, then is that notable in itself?--Tomwsulcer (talk) 15:32, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Notability (sports) may help. Have you checked if the article possibly exists on the Thai language Misplaced Pages? -- œ 10:45, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks I'll check. And good idea about the Thai language WP.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 02:16, 30 December 2010 (UTC) I checked what I (thought) was the Thai[REDACTED] and there's no listing for this person.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 02:19, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Zahoor Ahmed Shah

Notability concerns. See Talk:Zahoor Ahmed Shah. No mention in these publications: indiacurrents.com, littleindia.com, indiatoday.in OR sitethokalath.com, ververonline.com, indiamagazine.com, asianage.com, aniin.com, thehindubusinessline.com, businessreviewindia.in, dnaindia.com, expressindia.com, hardnewsmedia.com, hinduonnet.com, hindustantimes.com, indiadaily.com, indianexpress.com, mumbaimirror.com, rediff.com. December 2010.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 02:16, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Rebecca Loudonsack

Notability concerns. Probably a British soap opera actress. But no mention of her in British or American press, entertainment/TV sources, worldwide newspapers. the following: thesun.co.uk, guardian.co.uk, telegraph.co.uk, independent.co.uk, dailynewspaper.co.uk, dailymail.co.uk, thetimes.co.uk, bbc.co.uk, ew.com, divatvmagazine.com, realitytvmagazine.com, entertainmentavenue.com, hellomagazine.com, hollywoodreporter.com, instyle.com, themightyorgan.com, okmagazine.com, people.com, popmatters.com, radaronline.com, thecelebritycafe.com, urban75.com, usmagazine.com, variety.com, digitalspy.co.uk, cable360.net, atnzone.com, realitynewsonline.com, realscreen.com, smarttvandsound.com, telechimp.com, tvweek.com, tvguide.com, tvrundown.com, videoageinternational.com, videography.com, wsj.com, nytimes.com, boston.com, miamiherald.com, post-gazette.com, chicagotribune.com, suntimes.com, latimes.com, sfexaminer.com, oregonian.com, usatoday.com, time.com, washingtonpost.com, nysun.com, cbsnews.com, npr.org, guardian.co.uk, nj.com, nhpr.com, huffingtonpost.com, thestar.com, usnews.com, slate.com, newsweek.com.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 02:43, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

You did a huge amount of research. I'll be interested to see the response from other editors here, as I often come across very non-notable articles on people and books, and the process for getting rid of them is, to say the least, extremely cumbersome, so that WP is cluttered. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 02:30, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

How about this http://www.emmerdale.org/emmerdale/profiles/emmac.htm - it appears she did a single role, age 13, and then never appeared again. Gave up her child and moved to Germany in 1998 apparently. Perhaps she changed her name too. 81.227.230.210 (talk) 14:06, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

A couple of months ago I listed a whole load of similar (but interconnected) British actors/actresses here that suffered the same problems (listing bit parts in Casualty and the Bill as notable but with no references) I got no response here about any of them but the process of dealing with them all seemed too cumbersome for me to get them deleted myself. For a single one like this I would simply mark it for WP:PROD. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 14:23, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

My way of contributing here is to reference things, write articles, do revamps; I like writing and exploring and learning new things; I'm not into deleting stuff which I see as a particular skill that others have but which I'm not that keen on learning although this may change.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 16:10, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Deletion is an unfortunate but sometimes necessary decision to make. Sometimes you will find that you've spent a lot of effort fixing up a badly written article only to have someone else go and (correctly) propose it for deletion anyway because it's just not within Misplaced Pages's scope, and all your work was for naught. It makes more sense to just propose it for deletion yourself. -- œ 21:31, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm not an administrator. If I can propose deletions I'm not sure what the steps are. Actually I read up on it and will try doing a proposed deletion. This is my first prod; if I goof up on any steps please others let me know.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 01:56, 1 January 2011 (UTC) Update: I did a PROD (hopefully right?) but I couldn't find the article's original creator -- it was an educational site not a user.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 02:02, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

I highly recommend enabling Twinkle in your preferences. You can find it under the 'Gadgets' tab in 'My preferences'. It automates various tasks, including proposed deletion, allowing you to perform all the steps quickly and easily with a click of the mouse. -- œ 18:55, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip. I installed Twinkle. I see this "TW" on my bar and maybe I'll use it in future. I have lots of handyman projects this week so I don't think I'll be contributing much unless I take a break and do more referencing of random unreferenced bios.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 22:44, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

December 2010 Copenhagen terrorist plot

I submitted an entry for a recent terrorist event in Denmark, which was rejected.

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_creation/December_2010_Copenhagen_Terrorist_Plot_Against_Jyllands-Posten

This event is notable because it has been described by Danish officials as the worst/greatest terror plan in the country. It is notable because it has 1600+ articles on google news.

http://news.google.se/news/more?q=copenhagen+terrorists&hl=en&safe=off&biw=1061&bih=778&prmd=ivns&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ncl=dEDBZ6U1S08LXSM7ozdTe__mFFEbM&ei=7OAdTdGDEoyPswb86oj8DQ&sa=X&oi=news_result&ct=more-results&resnum=5&ved=0CEQQqgIwBA

Please reconsider adopting this page for a[REDACTED] entry. 81.227.230.210 (talk) 13:58, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

G-Money (G-Money Music)

<content removed>

— Preceding unsigned comment added by G-MoneyMusic (talk • contribs) 20:12, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Sorry this is not the place to post an article. If you're asking if the subject is notable enough for Misplaced Pages I would say no, it fails WP:MUSICIAN, but in time that may change and someone may eventually write an article about this person. And note that we discourage subjects from writing about themselves. -- œ 21:42, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Potomac Stages

This article refers to a defunct website about theater in Washington, DC. It seems not notable. PixiesAreNice (talk) 00:42, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

It has a reference in the Washington Post and the article in terms of length and style doesn't seem to be promotional or offbase. People may want to know what it was, or maybe get access to older archived articles it has about theater. My sense is this is a borderline case probably not worth fussing about.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 23:08, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Miya Hisaka Silva

This article is a copy/pasted bio of a dancer, whom I don't believe meets the notability requirements. PixiesAreNice (talk) 01:14, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

I checked sources. I found a reference in the Washington Post with a fairly glowing report. While it could use more references, my hunch is the article is fairly solid.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 23:18, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Syed Ahmed

I'm doubtful about the content balance of this article and about whether it's just been reduced to PR material. Is it possible to review this with anyone with a view to maybe having it removed? --Drewpuppy (talk) 11:47, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Wondering what your problems are with this article? It appears well-referenced if a bit PR-ish.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 23:01, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm aware that there are personal reasons why I definitely shouldn't try to make decisions about this myself. The talk page on the article will make this clear, and it's why I'm asking for help. I'm a newbie even though I've used Misplaced Pages for a long time, and even edited content a few times. Having found the pages on notability, I'm reading through them carefully. So far I can find reasons both for and against the inclusion of this article. There is one main issue that seems important to me. The article appears to be very vigorously edited by a specific person who always attempts to remove criticism and only add positive material. It doesn't seem balanced, hence my reference to PR. Should I, do you think, run through the formal page deletion procedure and accept the outcome or just accept that the article is here to stay right away? --Drewpuppy (talk) 08:30, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

I think the article is clearly notable. He's being written about in newspapers => notable. So I don't think trying to delete the article will work on the basis that it's too positive, rather, if you have content disputes, you can argue your case on the talk page, and if it's important to you, try to work with the others to make the article fair & balanced. If well-referenced and pertinent additions to an article are removed without good explanations, you should revert the edits, and challenge the others to explain the deletions, and I'll try to help if you need me. But overall the Ahmed article looks (fairly) neutral at this point.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 13:40, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. Many thanks for your clear guidance, Tom. There are some further edits I will revert while adding additional citations. --Drewpuppy (talk) 20:04, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Maurice Elenbaas

The external links are spam and don't lead (as far as I can determine) to any information on this person. There are no references of a person with this name in the following media:

Dutch newspapers amsterdam-idea.nl, dutchinamerica.com, dnd.nl, dutchinternationalsociety.org, dutchnews.nl, expatica.com/nl, nisnews.nl, rnw.nl/english, godutch.com/newspaper Sports sources athleticbusiness.com, athlonsports.com, camelotsportsmedia.com, espn.go.com, insidesport.com.au, iplayoutside.com, sportingnews.com, sportsillustrated.cnn.com, world-newspapers.com/car-racing.html Major US newspapers wsj.com, nytimes.com, boston.com, miamiherald.com, post-gazette.com, chicagotribune.com, suntimes.com, latimes.com, sfexaminer.com, oregonian.com, usatoday.com, time.com, washingtonpost.com, nysun.com, cbsnews.com, npr.org, guardian.co.uk, nj.com, nhpr.com, huffingtonpost.com, thestar.com, usnews.com, slate.com, newsweek.com Major newspapers worldwide guardian.co.uk, usatoday.com, france24.com/en, chinadaily.com.cn, english.aljazeera.net, indiatoday.in, economist.com, news.bbc.co.uk, journalperu.com, adnkronos.com/IGN/Aki/English, brazzil.com, rnw.nl/english. Did a PROD.Tomwsulcer (talk) 12:49, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Maka'ala Yates

There was no mention of this person in January 2011 using any of these spellings:

"Maka'ala Yates" OR "Maka ala Yates" OR "Makaala Yates"

... in any of the following news sources:

Hawaiian publications: staradvertiser.com, hawaiitribune-herald.com, westhawaiitoday.com, mauinews.com, allhawaiinews.com, hawaiinewsdaily.com

US or world newspapers: wsj.com, nytimes.com, boston.com, miamiherald.com, post-gazette.com, chicagotribune.com, suntimes.com, latimes.com, sfexaminer.com, oregonian.com, usatoday.com, time.com, washingtonpost.com, nysun.com, cbsnews.com, npr.org, guardian.co.uk, nj.com, nhpr.com, huffingtonpost.com, thestar.com, usnews.com, slate.com, newsweek.com, guardian.co.uk, usatoday.com, france24.com/en, chinadaily.com.cn, english.aljazeera.net, indiatoday.in, economist.com, news.bbc.co.uk, journalperu.com, adnkronos.com/IGN/Aki/English, brazzil.com, rnw.nl/english --Tomwsulcer (talk) 19:43, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Mariana Fuentes

There was no mention of this person in January 2011 using any of these spellings:

"Mariana Fuentes"

... in any of the following news sources:

Venezuelan publications: english.eluniversal.com, latin-focus.com, latinpetroleum.com, vcrisis.com, veneconomia.com, venezuelanalysis.com

US or world newspapers: wsj.com, nytimes.com, boston.com, miamiherald.com, post-gazette.com, chicagotribune.com, suntimes.com, latimes.com, sfexaminer.com, oregonian.com, usatoday.com, time.com, washingtonpost.com, nysun.com, cbsnews.com, npr.org, guardian.co.uk, nj.com, nhpr.com, huffingtonpost.com, thestar.com, usnews.com, slate.com, newsweek.com, guardian.co.uk, usatoday.com, france24.com/en, chinadaily.com.cn, english.aljazeera.net, indiatoday.in, economist.com, news.bbc.co.uk, journalperu.com, adnkronos.com/IGN/Aki/English, brazzil.com, rnw.nl/english

Entertainment magazines: ew.com, divatvmagazine.com, realitytvmagazine.com, entertainmentavenue.com, hellomagazine.com, hollywoodreporter.com, instyle.com, themightyorgan.com, okmagazine.com, people.com, popmatters.com, radaronline.com, thecelebritycafe.com, urban75.com, usmagazine.com, variety.com)

TV newspapers: digitalspy.co.uk, cable360.net, atnzone.com, realitynewsonline.com, realscreen.com, smarttvandsound.com, telechimp.com, tvweek.com, tvguide.com, tvrundown.com, videoageinternational.com, videography.com--Tomwsulcer (talk) 21:02, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Notability of villages/towns/places

The following conversation is copied here from a TfD for a navbox on a Burmese township. Your input is appreciated. --Mepolypse (talk) 22:18, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

See Template:Homalin Township. I am building coverage of Burma on here and will be tackling the main towns/villages of each township first. To delete the templates would be counterproductive, especially when they would only be restarted again. Have patience and allow things to develop. At some stage mass dabbing will be done, hopefully be a bot and linkes will be fixed and articles started.♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:00, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

I see. Are all of those villages in that township really notable enough to have their own articles per WP:N? --Mepolypse (talk) 14:08, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Notability (geography). Perhaps you should view these images of the people who inhabit these villages. It might be a real eye opener.. But my intention is not to start every single village (at least not in the near future)... I've created templates so I can cross cut from one township to the other and start the most notable towns/villages first like Kutkai, Onbet etc. Building will take time and patience. Most townships will have at least 10 villages which have some information in a British Burmese gazeteer to make it a worthy stub..♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:14, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, I was looking for that notability guideline at Category:Misplaced Pages notability guidelines but didn't find it, since it appears to only be an essay, not a guideline. I don't have any experience with notability of places, it just seems to me that these villages may not be that notable. Hopefully someone else can comment on this. --Mepolypse (talk) 14:30, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Well I have years of experience as a site developer... If Ambrosden is notable why is it so hard to believe that a similar sized settlement in any other country is notable? ♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:36, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

(What does site developer mean in this context? Are you talking about non-web sites, web sites in general, or this web site specifically)? I agree that places above a certain size threshold should generally be considered notable. I just have no way of knowing what size these places are, since for example Kyaukkwe (or the link from that article) don't claim that that place is any specific size, so from looking at the article I cannot tell if it is smaller or larger than Ambrosden. --Mepolypse (talk) 15:06, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Wikipedians by number of articles for what experience I have on here.. What I will do is survey each township on google maps. Identify the settlements which look sizeable visually and then use google nbooks to find some info about them. The best thing we can do in regards to Burma is start those which actually have sources available first and are the most notable settlements. Of course there is less likely to sources available on the Internet as "western" villages but you;ll just have to trust me on that one. See Allagappa that's the sort of village stub I'll be starting from township to township. That makes them much more worthwhile than a xxx is a village types stubs. In regards to verifiable populated settlements I believe the vast majority are notable. Bodinnick for instance is a small village as is Aberchalder. The vast majority of Burmese settlements are larger than Aberchalder but many won't have sources readily available on the web yet..♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:14, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand what your point about being a site developer is. Why is your article count relevant? As for notability of these places, I'm not sure it's a good idea to base the decision of which places are notable enough to have articles on Misplaced Pages on which dots look subjectively big on a map. --Mepolypse (talk) 15:42, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Eh, I've started 68,000 articles which still exist. That should vouch for something in such a deletionist environment that I clearly have an idea of what is notable... You claim you have no experience in talking about settlement notability, I've had this conversation 10,000 times before.. Did you not read what I said? I said I will find settlements by google maps (by actual village size) and then find sources in google books to start them...♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:02, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

(Oh, it's a list of Wikipedians by number of articles started, I thought it was a list of Wikipedians by number of articles edited. The list doesn't make this especially clear, as "article count" is ambiguous. Either way, I fail to see what bearing this has on the arguments.) If you've had this discussion so many times previously I would expect you to have reasonable arguments. Just saying to trust you on the fact that villages are notable when no notability is claimed doesn't seem like a good argument. Yes, I read what you wrote. You said you "identify the settlements which look sizeable visually". You now also say you do so "by actual village size" (which you previously did not say). From this I assume you are judging notability based on the physical area of the populated area. This begs further questions: Are you looking at maps or satellite photos or both? How do you determine where the borders of the populated area are? Are you actually measuring the physical area and have an actual cut-off point (a fixed number of square meters/feet/whatever) or is it more of a shoot-from-the-hit decision whether you consider these places notable. You also say that you "then find sources in google books to start them". I fail to see the results of this last part on for example Kyaukkwe, for which no such sources are noted in the article. --Mepolypse (talk) 18:12, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm sure there are lots of villages where there's content to create useful articles, but I suspect there are also villages where there may never be any such content. IMO there's no rush to create articles for places before we know whether there is. As a bare minimum I think there should be some sort of claim to notability in the article, such as it having a population over a certain threshold, or that something interesting has happened there, or something else that in any way adds notability to the place. The first nine places linked from {{Homalin Township}} which you mentioned earlier don't have any such claim. Why must we create these articles before we know if there's ever going to be anything else added to them. Wouldn't it be better to first check to see if there is any info about them (in Google Books or elsewhere) before creating them? If I were to draw a line of when to create a new article and when not to, it would be between the ninth link and the tenth. --Mepolypse (talk) 22:47, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

I do not see how you can possibly say that there is any village where there will not be such content. Our reach into other than the traditional ?Western countries is increasing; our ability to deal with other languages is increasing, at least to the extent that improvement in Google translate permit, the current reach of Google news is increasing, the amount of material in Google books and similar projects likewise--including many projects that are working with nonEnglish material that G Books does not yet extensively handle. I'd keep the present line: if it is a recognized settlement and not a mere neighborhood or group of buildings, it can be expanded. (and even these sorts of subjects often can be, but their definitions are so capable of indefinite expansion downwards that I wouldn't suggest including them automatically). The political or recognized geographic or official definition of a place is sufficient importance. This is a sort of subject where the GNG is irrelevant. (and once again, the concept of WP:N is not a policy, just a guideline--it is the basic rule that Misplaced Pages includes the elements of a gazetteer which is the supervening policy. And reasonable so, for gazetteers have always been part of encyclopedias.

It would further be a very poor use of time to argue about each article of this sort, & I can predict on the basis of past experience endless quibbling at AfD. The more we get out of AfD the better, so we have time to discuss the serious issues that arise there.

And finally, as important as actual content, is that it would be very counterproductive to discourage such articles. They are the very easiest things for beginners, either to create in the first place or to expand. We must continue to attract new people, and many of them will be up to doing this better at first than they could many other things. DGG ( talk ) 02:23, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree with David (DGG). Well said. You are a wise man. It might be that a village or town isn't "notable" yet, but will be in time, or that people move there or want to learn about it, and as the population expands, and our reach expands in terms of knowledge (and language), that it will be useful to have such articles and avoid the quibbling. And a place (unlike a person or a biography) is arguably less contentious of an issue, like a philosophical position or religious edict (what tends to draw conflict and dissension).--Tomwsulcer (talk) 03:13, 3 January 2011 (UTC)--Tomwsulcer (talk) 03:17, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Rare form of Lacrimal Eye Cancer non hodgkins malt lymphoma

I was diagnosed with a rare eye cancer in 2004. I live in Ontario Canada. Quite frankly the specialists didn't quite know how to approach treating it. It was clinically termed non hodgkins malt lymphoma of the lacrimal gland. I am quite willing to submit medical documentation if requested. I had a biopsy to confirm but tumor was not debulked. It was scary hearing the oncologists state they had never treated this before. I suggested removal of the eye but they had hope for me. I was radiated with 3000 rads in 15 sessions from various angles. I contacted the Canadian Cancer Society as well as the American Cancer Assoc. but no one on file had "my cancer in my strange location". Long story short end result was loss of all teeth, trigeminal nerve damage which was avulsed in 2007 and I will have intercranial brain side ganglion cluster cutalage (cut) Jan 17/11 now 6 years post radiation. I am still trying to get back a painfree life. I had a lens implant done on the left eye but the retina cracked "like styrofoam" and bled obscuring vision in that eye. The right eye is slowly still developing a cataract and will require lens implant with hopefully a better result then the left. Maybe my lacrimal lymphoma experience and all its terrible treatment side effects will help will help future patients and doctors succeed at a better outcome then I got. As I await brain surgery I think of all the things I wish O had had the chance to do in life many regrets. But I did spend most of my years being a great mother to my 2 sons. If the right eye should also respond as the left did I will be clinically blind. The right lens is slowly clouding over. I do wish I had the opportunity to meet Gabriel Byrne as we share a great grand parent in Ireland and my dad was a WW11 Irish Regiment veteran. My husband is a Canadian Armed Forces veteran as well honorably discharged.

Sincerely Emilie LaMarsh - Allan Ontario Canada. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.110.246.15 (talk) 02:37, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Notability of 'time traveler' film in The Circus

The problem: a few months ago, some fellow thought he saw a woman using a cell phone in 1928, gleaned from the public premiere footage of the 1928 film The Circus. He made a YouTube video of it, and it quickly picked up millions (at last count, I think it was 10's of millions). Major news outlets picked up the story, and it was all over the news for about a week or so.
In the article, there was a lot of resistance towards mentioning the observation at all, citing that it wasn't related to the actual film, but instead to a supplementary reel included in the DVD set that filmed the premiere of the movie at Mann's Chinese Theater. After a lot of (heated) discussion, the event was whittled down to just a mention in the "See Also" section, and wikilinked to Internet Phenomena.
The article has pretty much languished both before and after this kerfuffle, seeing little int he way of expansion. Recently, there's been a push to remove it from both places, leaving the article with no reference of the matter at all. I am of the opinion that the event should be included, in a popular cultural reference section, which would look something like this. I don't think that the event could stand in an article all by itself, as has been recommended by at least one person (which to me seems like a sneaky way to simple delete the content indirectly); I am fairly certain that few pop cultural references could survive in their own article, especially when it seem inextricably linked to the film and it's premiere.
It was suggested that some input and insight could be garnered here, and I am always in favor of widening a loop instead of keep it down to a small group of exclusionists (perhaps a faintly unfriendly assessment, but a valid one indeed, considering the lack of expansion in the article by anyone seeking to nix any mention of this matter). Any thoughts on the matter would be very helpful. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 05:29, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

This shows appaling bad faith. The objections are based on the fact that A; it has had no lasting impact (not news), B: most (if not all the coverage) treated it prety much as a but of a joke (not news, Trivial, fringe), C: that it has nothing to do with the actual film (Fringe, Undue), D: that no actual expert has accpted the 'time traveller' explantion (fringe), E: that (as far as I can tell) RS have generaly not confirmed what the one reported witness has seen (fringe). There may also be other objecttons.Slatersteven (talk) 15:25, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

To begin with, if any bad faith is being presented here, it would likely be by your, Slatersteven. Someone suggested that I bring it to a noticeboard, and I did so. Are you suggesting that doing so is forum-shopping? Now, that's appallingly bad faith. Get your facts straight, before tossing accusations around, please. Now, to address your points:

A - No lasting impact? The event was 80 years ago! It was reported by major news organs; its still cited by the same, and is notable (therefore dismissing your Notnews argument en toto).

B - It is your opinion that the news organs treated it as a joke; you haven't any citable evidence that they treated it as such. It was reported as a news story in at least a dozen major news networks and followed up on later by reporters seeking to debunk the hypothesis of a cell phone. therefore, not trivial. As well, you are seriously misapprehending our fringe guidelines; no one is advocating the idea that it was a time traveler. What was curious was the usage of what appeared to be a cell phone. That is what generated the interest, the news stories and their follow-up stories. As far as I can tell, cell phones are not fringe science.

C - Wrong again. The source film was included in the DVD collection Chaplin films, this one related explicitly to the film in question (to whit, its premiere at Mann's Chinese Theater). We don't have to look too far to find a connection - the compilers/manufacturers/producers of the DVD collection all found it to be a connected matter. To say it isn't connected is to dismiss the fan craze at the premieres of Harry Potter movies, because they aren't related to the films.

D - No one has specifically stated that the film shows a time traveler; Clarke himself only suggested it. Most of the news agency stories have been on the cell phone anachronism. So again, no fringe.

E - Of course, Slatersteven is completely mistaken here, as every news story not only commented on what Clarke said, but made their own observations as well. As did the debunkers. Yet again, neither Fringe, Notnews or Trivial. In point of fact, you have offered each of these arguments before, and every time they were dismissed by myself and others, SS. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 16:33, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

There has been no lack of input from editors at the article's talk page and the discussion is not at any kind of a standstill. Regardless of how much one editor may disagree with the outcome, there's a clear consensus that the material shouldn't be included. But I guess additional input is always appreciated even when the disagreeing party engages in forum shopping and threats of ARBCOM over the issue. Big Bird (talk • contribs) 15:32, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

In fairness, I specifically suggested Jack post at this noticeboard as an alternative to his desire for "arbitration" and to get wider input from the community. I've since asked him to refactor the text of his notice to be a bit less accusatory. - LuckyLouie (talk) 15:45, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, it looks like I did say 'arbitration' instead of 'mediation'. Oops. I meant that I see this attempt to first marginalize then remove a heavily cited news story as censorship. Not one valid policy or guideline has been presented that actually negates the interesting nature of this story, which is obviously of value to the article (page stats went through the roof for the article during the initial reporting of the matter, and have remained rather higher than they were pre-reporting). Again, I am not sure where my forum-shopping has occurred.

Lastly, if my "tone" seems "accusatory", its due to the fact that no one can cite a valid policy/guideline that this information violates. All I am getting is 'I don't like it' dressed up in links to wiki policies that the editors in talk are apparently not actually reading. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 16:33, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the notability of the article itself is not in question. This is an issue of placement of text within an article, and whether it belongs there at all, given that it has no relationship to the film itself. ScottyBerg (talk) 15:59, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

As stated before, i disagree, and so do the folk who produced, edited and created the DVD collection. Last time I checked, our personal opinions do not outweigh actual facts - they considered it related. Therefore, it is. In a more basic way (if the previous wasn't enough), consider that the only reason this film was made was because The Circus was premiering, and the creators of that film wanted to show people in attendance (presumably, for marketing purposes). Does it have to do with the plot of the movie? Clearly no, but then, how many film articles do we have in mainspace that discuss pop culture/controversy/etc. sections? Purging this sets a precedent for removing any and all material that doesn't meet the NEW criteria for inclusion being presented here. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 16:40, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I've no objecting to closing this and moving it to the fringe noticeboard as notability isn't in question. But I think the best place for this is someplace in dispute resolution (mediation seems like too big of a stick and third opinion too small though). Hobit (talk) 16:04, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I oppose the preemptory closure of this discussion. It is not a fringe-related matter. At all. I'd like to get some weigh-in from someone other than the folk opposing this in the article discussion, if that wouldn't seem untoward. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 16:40, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, you've got my support for the inclusion of the material. Keeping it out is very strange in my view. I just don't think it should have more than a sentence or so due to WP:UNDUE. That said, this noticeboard is about the notability of sources and there is no real debate on that so there is no real reason to keep the discussion here. Hobit (talk) 17:27, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, Hobit, for the support. I am not inclined to put a lot into the article, either (I too, want to avoid undue concerns, esp. in such an anemic article) Not sure where the matter should go, though Fringe is clearly not the route.

As for the strangeness of keeping it out, I share your view, and suspect that some folk don't want their article about a classic film 'muddied up' by any of those internets tubes. Maybe that's unfair, but I don't get the reticence, either. It smells like censorship to me, or just laziness; only one person has expanded the article at all since the story broke (aside from my attempt of adding 4 sentences and one for the Lede, that is); everyone seems more hell-bent on keeping this out than actually improving the article. That's why a noticeboard seemed the only sane avenue left. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 17:45, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Speaking for myself. I support the present weight and wording of the exisiting "See also" link. As originally wrought back in October, it represented a good compromise between yourself and several opposing editors. I think it works fine as is. - LuckyLouie (talk) 17:53, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I was fine with that as well, until the indef blocked user thought it might be nifty to stir up things by calling for its removal (and of course, removing it). I think that the article would be better served by a mix between the pre-existing form and the edit I added as a test. the current one is too short, and mine is considered too long. I think ts pretty important to point out why the person was thought to be a time traveler; thousands of readers came to us to find out. They undoubtedly left disappointed. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 18:03, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

You should not be adding edits "as a test." See WP:POINT. ScottyBerg (talk) 20:45, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I'd say that WP:BRD is also relevant. Hobit (talk) 01:12, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

I'd agree with you, Hobit. As for you, Scotty, I've seen your talk page opinions, so I'm simply going to loan you a few bucks so you can head out to the store and pick up some AGF, okay? Calling an edit which in any other article would be considered just fine as disruptive is a pretty solid example of bad faith. In point of fact, I created the edit to demonstrate how the info could be used effectively and not unduly. That you cannot see that is more your problem than mine. If you want to take more shots at me personally, do so on my talk page - Misplaced Pages isn't a battleground. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 04:23, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

No, not if it's a "test." Editors are not permitted to disrupt Misplaced Pages for the purpose of conducting "tests." ScottyBerg (talk) 16:29, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

For the last time, SB, it wasn't disruptive, but constructive. Changing all the text in the article to bold, making every third word pink, wor writing an entire treatise on the Franco-American mindset in the middle of the article would all be considered disruptive as per our guidelines. My edit was offered as an edit to improve the quality of the article, Now, if you wish to argue that my edit was disruptive, Wikiquette complaints or AN/I is located elsewhere in the Misplaced Pages. Please stop trying to tangentially reframe the problem, and focus on the issue at hand, please.

Again, I'd like to get some input from editors who aren't actively involved in the disagreement in the article; they are already of a cemented opinion on the matter, and are not really in a collaborative mood. I'd like to hear from others. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 19:46, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Notability of Paul Vigay

I worry about the notability of the page Paul Vigay. The page is practically an orphan and seems to have been created in the weeks after his death. Is this an example of a memorial?--Flibble (talk) 18:49, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I added two references to PV. There were many more suggesting clear notability.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 20:29, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Hmm, if he's notable as a 'crop circle expert' as your references suggest, shouldn't there be a bit more in the article about crop circles? (something more than "Paul had many interests, most public one being Crop Circles."). --Flibble (talk) 20:57, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, bit of a rant, there's a tad more than that, but not really a lot. The opening paragraph is a bit confusing though saying he was best known for one thing and notable for something else. I'm not really sure what the page as a whole is meant to be about, other than a bio of a man that had several hobbies and died ... --Flibble (talk) 21:07, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I didn't spend much time on this, but what I did was a quick search using his name, just for British publications. About 10 listings came up; and there are probably more in other publications abroad. I used two for references. One of them referred to him as an expert. So, my sense is there's more to this guy than just a hobbyist. If you'd like to do a PROD, be my guest; my sense is he's notable, and that a sensible review would conclude the article should stay, regardless of what people think about UFOs and crop circles. (My guess is: all hooie.) That's my opinion about the article, however, that he's notable, that's all. --Tomwsulcer (talk) 03:56, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

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