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This article is written in Indian English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, analysed, defence) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

view · edit Frequently asked questions Q1: Why is Bhārat Gaṇarājya not rendered in Devanagari script? A1: See this discussion (from 2012) and this discussion (from 2017), which are codified in WP:INDICSCRIPT. Q2: It's "Bengaluru", not "Bangalore"! A2: This article uses the name that is most commonly used by English-language reliable sources. See WP:COMMONNAME. Q3: Why was my content removed? A3: The India page adheres to summary style, sticking to core topics and skipping excess details. To update economy figures or other content, cite credible sources. See WP:V. Q4: Why aren't there sections on science and technology, education, media, tourism etc? A4: New sections require talk-page consensus. In archived discussions, it was decided to keep them out. Consider expanding their respective daughter articles, such as History of India, instead. See WP:WPC. Q5: Why was my image or external link removed? A5: To add or remove images and links, start a thread on this page first. See WP:FP?, WP:IMAGE, and WP:EL. Q6: The map is wrong! A6: The map shows the official (de jure) borders in undisputed territory and the de facto borders and all related claims where there's a dispute; it cannot exclusively present the official views of India, Pakistan, or China. See WP:NPOV. Q7: India is a superpower! A7: Consult the archives of this talk page for discussions of India's status as a superpower before adding any content that makes the suggestion. See WP:DUE. Q8: Delhi is a state! A8: To create an Indian state, the Parliament of India must pass a law to that effect—see Articles 2 through 4 of the Constitution of India, full text here. The Sixty-ninth Amendment, which was enacted in 1991, added Article 239AA to the constitution. It proclaimed the National Capital Territory of Delhi, gave it a legislative assembly, and accorded it special powers that most union territories lack. But Delhi was not made a state. Several crucial powers were retained by the central government, such as responsibility for law and order. Delhi also does not have a governor; instead, a lieutenant governor presides. Unlike Himachal Pradesh, which gained statehood in 1970, and Goa, which gained it in 1987, Delhi continues to be listed as a union territory by the First Schedule. Q9: Add Hindi as the national language/hockey as the national sport! A9: Hindi is the official language, not national language. There is no national language, but there are constitutionally recognized languages, commonly known as Schedule 8 languages. English also serves as a subsidiary official language until the universal use of Hindi is approved by the states and parliament. Field hockey is not the national sport as per this article "In RTI reply, Centre says India has no national game", Deccan Herald, August 2012.

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Child marriage

The statement about child marriage was supported by two sources, one was a BBC report about Rajasthan a state of India, which reports about the measures taken by the government to tackle child marriage, this report is 10 years old, the second source mentions that the percentage of women in the age group of 20-24, who were married or in union before the age of 18, as 47%. Contrast this with countries like the United Kingdom or the United States where the figures are 86% and 75 % respectively , in Britain according to the Gillick Fraser competency it is legal for children to have sex before they can open a Facebook account.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 18:26, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

"Child marriage is still a common practice, more so in rural India, with half of women in India marrying before the legal age of 18." This was the sentence you removed. The issue is not how old they were when they had sex - the issue is how old when they were married. You are comparing two different things. There are other sources to back this up like . I am reinserting the line you removed. The reason you provided "the cited sources do not show fidelity" has now been addressed. --Sodabottle (talk) 05:25, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

And BTW in Britain according to the Gillick Fraser competency it is legal for children to have sex before they can open a Facebook account. Age of Consent is same in India and UK (16). And if both participants are below the age of consent, there is no legal restriction (unless force was involved) about sex in both countries.--Sodabottle (talk) 05:33, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

The Child marriage line is crap, it doesn't even mention a good source. Kindly remove it. Source it has lands to some US based tabloid and only the article is new the data it provides is unacceptably old. The other reference given which is stated to be 2009 report of UNICEFis actually 2002-2007 data. Remove it.Nitish.game (talk) 04:00, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Agree with Sodabottle. Yogesh Khandke seems to be confusing consensual sex with forced sex. And Nitish.game, cannot do Sodabottle the courtesy of reading what Sodabottle has written, and apparently believes that saying "remove it" enough times, like a magical incantation, will make the problem of forced child marriages in India disappear in a cloud of patriotic smoke. There are plenty of up-to-date references on forced underage marriages in India; it is a public health hazard that has contributed to India's high maternal deaths, the highest by far among all countries of the world. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:31, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Hahaha :D you were funny :/ I know it can't be vanished in a moment. I just want a correct reference of it. As I have mentioned earlier that sources are quit old to make impact and in the lack of sources better remove it (I know m using it once again, lol) and wait for the next UNICEF report. I am not being biased or something I am just putting o POV. Nitish.game (talk) 04:55, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Oh, OK, I misunderstood you. My apologies. I'll look for recent references. Back soon. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 05:10, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

(unindent) Here are some:

• Early marriage implicated in child malnutrition:
  • Raj, Anita; Saggurti, Niranjan; et al. (2010), "The effect of maternal child marriage on morbidity and mortality of children under 5 in India: cross sectional study of a nationally representative sample", British Medical Journal, 360 {{citation}}: Explicit use of et al. in: |first2= (help) Quote: "India, the most populous nation in South Asia, has the highest number of under-5 deaths in the region and in the world. ... Almost half of 20-24 year old women in India (44.5%) are married before age 18, and 22% of all 20-24 year old women have given birth by age 18 years. Such early motherhood, in India and elsewhere, is associated with increased likelihood of neonatal death and stillbirth, low birthweight infants, and child and infant morbidity and mortality."
• Early marriage implicated in maternal violence:
  • Raj, Anita; Saggurti, Niranjan; et al. (2010), "Association between adolescent marriage and marital violence among young adult women in India", International Journal of Gynecology and Obstetrics, 110 (1): 35–39 {{citation}}: Explicit use of et al. in: |first2= (help) Quote: "Nationally representative data from India document that 37.2% of married women report physical or sexual MV in the last year and that 45% of young adult women in India were married before 18 years of age .... Over half (58%) of the participants were married before 18 years of age; 35% of the women had experienced physical or sexual violence in their marriage; and 27% reported such abuse in the last year. Adjusted regression analyses revealed that women married as minors were significantly more likely than those married as adults to report ever experiencing marital violence." There are many more. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 05:39, 4 April 2011 (UTC) (Note: MV= maternal violence) Fowler&fowler«Talk» 05:40, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm... must have taken an effort to find this... isn't it? now see... article 1 Raj, Anita; Saggurti, Niranjan; et al. (2010), "The effect of maternal child marriage on morbidity and mortality of children under 5 in India: cross sectional study of a nationally representative sample", British Medical Journal, 360 {{citation}}: Explicit use of et al. in: |first2= (help) yup I've thoroughly gone through it... it focuses more on child malnutrition but yes it has references of our point still the data given even in that article is of survey 2005-2006 Raj, Anita; Saggurti, Niranjan; et al. (2009), "Prevalence of child marriage and its effect on fertility and fertility-control outcomes of young women in India: a cross-sectional, observational study.", British Medical Journal {{citation}}: Explicit use of et al. in: |first2= (help). This is the article which has been referred in your article for citation purposes however this article also published in 2009 quotes old data itself 2005-2006.

In your second article u can see urself that it quotes the data of 2005-2006. Let me remind you dear I am not saying it does not exist or neither I am the activist trying to save my country's image (or may be I am lolz no actually not like that)or what else we can do is Census 2011 report is out may be you can spend time on that to find something more reliable for this grand level till time I'll also go through it I've actually read it but its a very long and messier report to understand. My point is till you get the new data or reference just remove it (oh yes I've said it once again lolz its getting funnier)...  :) Nitish.game (talk) 06:26, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

You may want to consult this. "Provisional Population Totals Paper 1- Census 2011", Provisional Population Totals Paper 1- Census 2011, 2011 {{citation}}: Text "Author:Ministry of home affairs, Government of India" ignored (help); Text "Census 2011 India:Bharat Ki janganna" ignored (help)Nitish.game (talk) 06:32, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Fowler (1)It would be less disruptive if you don't allude intentions. Please do not make personal comments about editors, please consider this a formal request, discuss edits and do not make comments about persons making them. (2)Please come up with citations that back up your statement that child marriage is forced or that its consumation is coerced. The report you have quoted states that age at marriage influences marital violence, and not that sex is coerced. Soda(1)The table with statistics informs that the 47% figure for India is of marriage or union - which I interpreted to be sex, correct me if I am wrong (2)86% of British teenagers are reported to have been a part of a sexual relationship, the US figure is 75% (reference given above), why is the 47% Indian figure notable Soda, which is why I removed it and I am doing so again. (3)The problems with teenage pregnancies are universal, UK has a serious problem with them, more so because most of them are out of marriage, and the mothers are single, Indian teenage mothers have the support of the husband and both the families, actually not as much a serious problem as UK teenage pregnancies. Fowler the report stated above carries a statement that, the best the government could do is to stop undermining the family, the problems associated with early motherhood are there without doubt; in UK the mother is left holding the baby, in India the family supports the child mother. (3)Soda Please read about Gillick Fraser carefully, it is not about the age of consent, it states that under sixteen year olds can receive advice and treatment on contraception, please do not misunderstand GF, it says that the Age of Consent is no longer valid, you are wrong in your interpretation of GF competency Soda,there is no lower age limit, Facebook has it, it is 13, British law allows children to solicit advice and treatment about contraception, there is no lower cut off age, it is left to the doctor's judgement of the individual's competence. Having said so, statistics about infant mortality, maternal mortality etc. would be welcome, one notable statistic is that India is one of the 4 countries in the world where polio is endemic. That is a notable statistic child marriage is not as demonstrated above.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 11:19, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Without commenting on anything else, I'd be surprised if union means sex. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 11:24, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Corringendum/ clarification Marriage or union -> Union I interprete as sexual relationship outside marriage.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 11:44, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, that's a weird interpretation of the word. I think it's most likely something to do with Civil union. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 12:05, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

• That is what I understand man-woman living together as husband and wife, having sex and the women getting pregnant. Where the analogy with children in UK etc. being part of such relationships that end up in pregnancies, how is that any better than child marriages? Which means that while UK has 10-15 times India's per capita GDP, India children when it comes to sexual abuse are about 60% as bad as the UK, so India's child marriage statistics are not notable.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 18:59, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Yogesh Khandke. The info about India being one of the four nations where polio is endemic is more prominent or notable than the child marriage info. Child marriage info seems trivia and need not be mentioned in the article.Pdheeru (talk) 18:29, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

I too have to agree with Yogesh Khandke. The sex couldn't possibly be coerced. The reference I've provided above says, "37.2% of married women report physical or sexual MV (marital violence) in the last year." Since the sex couldn't possibly be coerced, it must mean that 37% of Indian couples go out to see a Kalidasa play in the early evening, discuss the play afterwards over tandoori chicken and lassi and strains of Bismillah Khan, and eventually move on to night of legally watertight consensual unions. Next morning, the husband spots a fly on his wife's unblemished face. Retrieving a Hanuman mace from the corner, he strikes a dozen very justifiable blows. On the fly, that is. Then in an effort to stanch the copious blood flowing from the fly's wounds, he sets his wife on fire. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:09, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Fowler (1) That is the problem with not reading carefully, I missed the sexual violence part, well it means some women do face sexual violence, which means that for some women sex is coerced, but the figure 37% includes sexual and physical abuse, compare this with figures in the developed world, this site informs that laws about marital rape exist, but are ineffective, and it refers to the United States and the United Kingdom, the figures are about 20%, so as I repeat child marriage is not a notable attribute, things are only as bad on this count as the other parameters, perhaps like I mentioned earlier, interpreting statistics that you shared a few days ago, India is less corrupt than it is poor, similarly India is less child abusing than it is poor. Fowler please see this paragraph about what consent leads to Figures on teenage girls in danger from boyfriends caused shock in research communities in the 1980's. Teen Dating violence, which often involves rape and sexual assault, continues to be on the rise. Approximately one in ten high school students experiences dating violence - that figure is 22% in college students (Wilson, K.J., When Violence Begins at Home: A Comprehensive Guide to Understanding and Ending Domestic Abuse, Hunter House Inc. Publishers, California, 1997) (same source) (2)Please do not make sarcastic comments about culture, cultural motifs and deities. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 18:49, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

the information is worth including though it needs not be misleading. according to one of the sources, "A total of 44.5% of the women had been wed by the time they were 18, set as the legal age for marriage since 1978. Of these, 22.6% had been married before the age of 16 and 2.6% before the age of 13". the percentage breakdown in different age groups needs to be clarified. i would also advice Fowler to resist the temptation to be sarcastic at every chance he gets. --CarTick (talk) 21:13, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

I've read these figures, the point is that are these stats notable? As I have pointed above, UK is the child sexual relationship capital of the world, in India it is at relatively lower levels. (As above) Another point is that marriage in parts of India is a two stage affair, Stage one is Vivaha and stage two is Gauna, another report also mentions the pracitce of Gauna and records that the age at first child birth is 19-20. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 21:37, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

The lancet study is more reliable. it has a larger sample size 22,807 from all over India and women from all walks of life. the report you showed was from a rural area near Delhi. your point about Gauna is valid as the study has apparently included married women who were in gauna. whether it is notable is subjective and i think it is. --CarTick (talk) 22:14, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Notability is not subjective I have presented my proven arguments above why I consider child marriage to be a non-notable statistic, you have to present yours, or allow deletion of the statement.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 22:40, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

K. Santhaa Reddy, Member National Commission for women writes on Child marriage "A few months ago, National Commission for Women decided to hold Public Hearings on child marriages. Everything seemed perfectly clear. Custom of child marriages was a problem that had remained in spite of decades of legislation. Out there in wilderness lived some ignorant and backward people who did not understand that child marriages led to early pregnancy and poor health for young mother and offspring."... "A marriage in rural India is not just a relationship between two individuals. Marriages form the backbone of the networking that is essential for survival in a world where the idea of state providing protection seems an alien concept. Urban mind tends to ignore this concept of marriage and looks at marriage in its western form. In Europe and America, marriage is a license to have sex and procreate. In all communities where child marriages are prevalent, the sexual aspect of marriage is absent at the time of marriage.", she adds Fowler this last was for you "In fact a child marriage is so essentially different from a normal marriage, that it should be called an engagement rather than a marriage. After such a marriage, the girl does not go with her husband. She continues to live with her parents. The marriage is not consummated for many years. When the girl and the boy attain maturity, another ceremony (called "Gauna" in North India) is held. It is only after Gauna that the girl can meet her husband. The marriage is consummated only after Gauna." is that clear Cartic? The writer clearly understands that "There is no doubt that early motherhood is most harmful for a girl's long-term health and that this should be discouraged. However, this should be done with empathy and understanding about Indian society, customs and rituals, rather than with arrogance and haughtiness." Do you think this statistic about Child marriage is notable Cartic?Yogesh Khandke (talk) 22:55, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Santhaa Reddy makes some interesting points. but he is wrong about westerners getting married for sex and procreation. for all i can tell from my many years in western countries (just anecdotal, please dont quote me on this), people (especially men) are pretty tired of sex (especially with their partner) by the time they get married. you know how it is after marriage, it is only downhill from there. Indian media spreads myth about sex in western world same as western media does about many things about India. --CarTick (talk) 23:44, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

K. Santhaa Reddy is a woman and not a man. I have used the proper pronoun.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 00:26, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Percentage is not the best characterization when dealing with Indian data. 2% in India means 24 million; 2% in the UK means 1.2 million, 2% in Sri Lanka means 400,000. Numbers are more important when one is dealing with human suffering. India has by far the world's largest number of minor females who are married, with most both illiterate and forced into matrimony. It is both pathetic and shameful that editors here are trying to put a gloss on this horrifying statistic by comparing it with the teenage travails of a developed society. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:29, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

what kind of ridiculous logic is that. if you use numbers, you have to provide numbers for both who do and dont practice and that is the whole purpose of using percentage. of course, if you want to mislead the readers and show India in negative light, like you are attempting to do, absolute numbers would do that. what would also be useful is to know the mean age of marriage in India. --CarTick (talk) 11:07, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

It is not practice, it is human suffering, just as malnutrition is not practice and we don't refer to the well-fed as not practising malnutrition. India has the largest number of underfed children in the world, the largest number of maternal deaths, and the largest number of female minors who have been forced into matrimony. The references I provided above conclude that there are causal links between all three statistics. Whether you still don't get it or are deliberately obfuscating to hide your shame, I have no idea. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:53, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Let's all try not to get overly emotional about this. Child marriage is a problem in India and is well recognized as a major health and social issue for women in India. We have a reliable reference that quotes a Lancet study (a reliable study) and statistics from the UN. That's good enough for me. CarTick's statistical detail is also fine. --rgpk (comment) 14:01, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Obama should be tapping you for mediator on Kashmir, if the Indians finally admit it needs mediation. I see again why you are an admin and I'm not.  :) Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:15, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

That can be found over at Age at first marriage. And yeah percentages is probably best. The difference between the different "2%"s is just showing India's a highly populated country. I mean on the child marriage you'd put in absolute numbers, where you'd be looking at the question 'to what extent is this prevalent in the world?'. But on this article it's more about India so what you're looking at is more 'to what extent is this prevalent in India?'. Munci (talk) 12:36, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I feel % is the better way to go here on such a large topic as "India". This is in no way trivializing the problem with minor's in forced matrimony, but perhaps the actual numbers and a more comprehensive discussion could be done in another Wiki article on the topic. --BwB (talk) 14:00, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

RegentsPark (1)I have demonstrated above that Child marriage is not a notable statistic, compared to other countries, unless you can explain why it is notable it needs to be taken off, additionally as mentioned above it is a cultural issue too, with consummation taking at a higher age than Gauna, so the statistics need to be given some parity. (2)I appeal to you as an administrator to stop editors from insulting deities and cultural icons and also diverting off topic and making casual personal comments, I am considering making a formal complaint on the above and would like India page watchers to share their views on what an editor could do when another insults his deities.? BwB The coercion issue is dealt with above by Ms. Santhaa (and the other sources cited by me) when she explains that Marriage is more like an engagement, and consummation takes later Yogesh Khandke (talk) 17:11, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, certain statements regarding a Deity made by a certain user ( as pointed out by Yogesh) is really uncalled for and irrelevant to the discussion. Either this user is deliberately trying to hurt the feelings of some people or is deliberately trying to take the discussion off topic. Such user should be warned by the administrators suitably so that this kind of things are not repeated. Regarding the discussion, the reference to child marriage should be deleted from the article since it is not a notable piece of info. There are other more prominent information which can be included (of course after a discussion)Pdheeru (talk) 18:03, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Yogesh and Pdheeru, I think fowler was being sardonic, imo in a tasteless way. But I'm not sure that the comments rise to an actionable level. Regardless, I've requested that he strike that portion of his remarks as a good faith gesture. About 'child marriage'. It clearly is a social and woman related issue that India is grappling with, a reliable reference calls it a 'peril', so I believe it should stay. It is not for us to compare India's statistics with those of other countries, nor is it our role to debate the semantics of marriage and cohabitation, but rather our job is to report what reliable sources consider important and to include those things. Whether we agree with those reliable sources or not. --rgpk (comment) 18:39, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

RegentsPark (1)the statistics offered on India should not be considered stand alone but compared with stats in other countries, and the Indian percentage is considerably lower, moreover marriage for many is merely an engagement that is consumated after another ceremony, (2)as for one source that calls it a peril, another study by B. S. Nagi calls the practice prevevalent but sporadic.. (3)An American president once blamed rising prices on the Indians eating too much, international reports on India need to be taken with a pinch of salt. (4)Therefore please take the statement off.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 19:22, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Yogesh, even if the percentages of underage women married in another country and India were identical, if reliable sources only single it out as a problem in India, then that's all that we can report. That is the nature of an encyclopedia. BTW, the B. S. Nagi book you quote does state that its incidence is sporadic but it also says that it is a severe problem for India because it directly affects fertility and birth rates and the national population policy of India and that it has more serious repercussions for girls. The writer also says that despite action by central and state governments "the problem of child marriage still persists," and that "urbanization and industrialization" have not resulted "in a significant reduction in child marriages." Later, the author, while comparing the statistical incidence of child marriage in India versus those of other Asian countries writes, "the problem of child marriage is alarming in India among all Asian countries." B. S. Nagi therefore clearly states that this is a significant problem for India. --rgpk (comment) 11:52, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

It is a matter of interpretation RegentsPark, as I had commented on Fowlers figures on corruption, India as the indices point out is considerably less corrupt than it is poor, but the corruption statistic is mentioned as a notable feature, however I wish others too have a look at this, and I am leaving this point alone for the moment. I wish this article mentions (1)India's affirmative action programmes. (2)Quotes Agnus Maddison on the GDP data 28% in 1700 and ~3% after over of century of being a colony.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 12:12, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm ok with a mention of India's affirmative action program (provided it is appropriately worded and the wording corresponds to what reliable sources say). Which section do you propose to add this in? Not so sure about the GDP data because of the difficulty of ascribing economic consequences unilaterally to British rule and I don't think that has a place in an overview article because we'll have to present all views and there just isn't enough space for that (we have a total of 4 sentences on colonial rule in the article). --rgpk (comment) 15:14, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Independence Act 1947

On 18 July 1947, the UK Parliament passed the Indian Independence Act to make provision for the setting up of two independent Dominions.

Please add this note to the introduction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.99.5.165 (talk) 14:31, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

An improvement

Hi, can you please change CE to BC? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.19.14.21 (talk) 18:40, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Why what is wrong with CE, do you mean change CE to AD?Yogesh Khandke (talk) 14:47, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Citation

See wp:Lead, this lead doesn't have a single citation? have enough citations.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 15:04, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

"everything in the lead should be refenced" doesnt mean the reference needs to be in the lead. we should avoid adding references to the lead as much as possible unless it is absolutely required. do you specifically challenge any of the current contents in the lead? --CarTick (talk) 15:47, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Well not a few days ago wp:Lead read "the lead must be carefully sourced as appropriate.."., see the talk page, there is a discussion on. The issue isn't just citations but in-line citations, many (including myself) would prefer too many citations to too few.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 16:16, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Edit to lead reg corruption

Do not revert, my statement is a faithful representation of the source. If you must revert, please provide citation for the statement India has become one of the fastest growing major economies, and is considered a newly industrialized country; however, it continues to face poverty, illiteracy, corruption and inadequate public health challenges, no wp:OR, no wp:SYNTHESIS. Thanks.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 17:32, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Khandke's statistical edits

I'm reverting this again YK. Perhaps you've missed this insight in the various discussions on this talk page (though it should be obvious), but every change to the lead is heavily discussed here before it is made. This was previously discussed Talk:India/Archive_30#Negatives_in_the_lead here and the discussion was inconclusive. Which means that you'll need to get consensus for your edits before you make them. --rgpk (comment) 17:38, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

(1)I haven't missed any of the subtleties Sir, actually they were not so subtle. (2)Allow me to put a citation required tag. If a citation isn't provided, the said text should go. (3)I also request editors to put their opinion on the issue. What they prefer (a)India has become one of the fastest growing major economies, and is considered a newly industrialized country; however, it continues to face poverty, illiteracy, corruption and inadequate public health challenges. or (b)India has become one of the fastest growing major economies, and is considered a newly industrialized country; however, the per capita GDP of India was 64 times less than that of the United States (2005), USD 720 against USD 43740.. Thanks. Please justify, dont just agree or disagree, please, thanks again.

Agree to (b) This edit informs that though there has been growth and that this growth is manifest in absolute terms, in terms of per person, India is still lags behind by a long shot. This is better than the peacock terms, which are misleading.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 18:05, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

YK, the lead is not meant to contain cited information but it should provide a summary, written in an accessible way, of material that is in the main body of the article. Poverty, illiteracy, and public health are all highlighted and cited in the main body. Raw statistics are meaningless and succeed only in hiding information. For example, reading your proposed statistical statement, a reader would be unaware of India's high poverty rate, poor literacy rate, issues with malnutrition etc. We could, of course, move all this detail from the main article into the lead but then the entire article would be just one big lead section. --rgpk (comment) 18:31, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

RegentsPark(1)Your statement that Raw statistics are meaningless and succeed only in hiding information is unfounded in this case. A line like India's per capita GDP is 1/64th of the US hides India's poverty, sorry. That is an inaccurate interpretation on your part, perhaps you could add that it has amongst the lowest per capita GDP in the world, but I did not find a source for that. My statement hides poverty??? How does it hide corruption, or literacy or malnutrition etc. On the other hand once you say a country is poor, it means that all its indices are bound to be in the red, that isn't simply notable, it is undue. (2)Your interpretation of wp:lead is incorrect, please check the article and the discussion on talk page. A lead is a mini article, it should summarise the article, a section could be represented by a line or two in the lead, each line in the lead ought to be supported by more content in the article.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 19:21, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

This (India) article informs that the literacy level is 74%, America's National Adult Literacy Survey informs that 21 - 23% American adults possess lowest skills in prose, document and quantitative proficiency], so even though Americans are 64 times richer than Indians they are almost only as literate as Indians, does that come across as a literacy issue as far as India is concerned?Yogesh Khandke (talk) 19:29, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Yogesh, as much as i hate it, India has all these problems and it needs to be there in the lead. illiteracy may not be as big an issue as it used to be. i am just saying this because of the new census. comparing it with America and performing all kind of original research to make it look better is not going to help. the only way we can help is by "educating" people in the real sense and not writing it in a different way in wikipedia. --CarTick (talk) 23:41, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Cartic: You dont get the point, that India despite all the hype, is a desparately poor country, and all its indices reflect that condition, malnutrition, hunger, health, education, housing, sanitation, inequality for women and children, pollution, cleanliness, defacation on roads, security, openness, good administration. The main issue is poverty, mention that and it covers everything else. You call my previous edit wp:OR, please give the offending statement(s).Yogesh Khandke (talk) 06:19, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

that is exactly the point that India despite all its hype and real achievements has all these inadequacies. i dont buy your argument that poverty is the root cause of all problems. you could be poor but less corrupt and keep your environement clean. I believe that a lot of the problems in India is a direct consequence of an appalling lack of "civic sense" among its citizens. we dont care as much about our neighbors and community as we care about our family. --CarTick (talk) 11:43, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

That is original research Cartic, let me start with Child marriages, the UK study I quoted states that there is a direct co-relation between poverty and age at marriage, the poorer the person, the lower the age? Do you wish that I provide similar statements for each of the above, that health care availabliy reduces with reduction in income, or availablity of education is related to income, if you need sources for Paris is the capital of France, I will provide them but it takes time Sir.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 14:20, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Just my 2 cents here: The world community is also to be blamed for this. Swiss banks, in a first world country, are encouraging corruption since how many decades? Then there is case of corruption within that makes less that 50 paise available in the system out of every rupee, God knows where does the rest go. My point is that all the wealth are return of efforts of Indians and not for the corrupt or the Swiss Banks to steal. Swiss Banks are actually to be blamed a lot for this thereby contracting Indian Economy while some Europeans make the most of Indian efforts and then other Europeans bail the banks out. In India the corruption is shockingly part of the system and there is only guarantee that those who stand up will be made fall guys as these days Lokpal Bill mess shows.Thisthat2011 (talk) 17:57, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Cartic's removal of tags

The addition of tags was an act of something I cannot use an uncivil word and cannot think of a wikiterm for something, good work that Cartic has removed them or relocated them. Cartic do you know how to link to an article in another language, I mean is an internal link to another language article possible Claude Poussin, this article is available on the Swedish wiki, how to link to it?Yogesh Khandke (talk) 19:51, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

please add ] at the bottom of the page. "fr" is an abbreviation of French in this case. --CarTick (talk) 20:47, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

This page or that page, could you do it for me? Actually it is Swedish, how do you do that?Yogesh Khandke (talk) 20:53, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

One of Fowler's issues on History page

The Bhimbetka etc statements are sourced, what is the issue, another point is that a source informs of farming as old as 13000 BCE in Lahuradewa and Sanai Tar in Uttar Pradesh on the Ganga. Apparently Uttar Pradesh and the Ganga bank, was where man took to farming 15000 years ago Yogesh Khandke (talk) 20:55, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

This is NOT the widely accepted view in the world today and I would wait for mainstream scholarly journal refs before acceoting this. AshLin (talk) 02:51, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

AshLin" Will you please, back up your statement with a citation please, more than one please, as the above citations are good and from different sources.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 06:11, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

You'll need to find scholarly sources for that, right now this is nothing more than one theory that's not yet accepted by the historians/academia or just in general. —SpacemanSpiff 08:42, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Do you Spaceman state that the above two sources, there are three, one is a newspaper report, are not scholarly? By what yardstick?Yogesh Khandke (talk) 13:39, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

India that is Bharat

The constitution of India states "India, that is Bharat, shall be a Union of States....", why doesn't this article inform so? (Constitution of India, Part I, 1.1) Yogesh Khandke (talk) 22:46, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Please mention it then. It could enhance understanding.Thisthat2011 (talk) 07:12, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Because Hindi speaking wikipedians try to create a new India here. They want one State, one country, one language. But even Central government institues give priority to State languages over Hindi, eg Railway sign boards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by David Fraudly (talk • contribs) 08:39, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

• What is your point David? I do not understand its relevance, my well quoted statement says that the Indian Constitution, its English version, makes the statement India that is Bharat, where has Hindi come from in the discussion?Yogesh Khandke (talk) 13:43, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

I think it is time those who do not understand diversity stop giving wild claims. The constitution of India states this clearly and should be included.Thisthat2011 (talk) 12:06, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree it could be included. --BweeB (talk) 12:22, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

it is already there guys. --CarTick (talk) 12:23, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

It is not there Cartic, and it isn't Hindi, it is English.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 13:15, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

The name is used in English for example Bharat Heavy Electricals Limited, Bharat Operating System Solutions, Bharat Times , etc.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 13:33, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

The Indian government uses "Government of India" in English and "Bharat Sarkar" in Hindi in all its correspondence. --rgpk (comment) 13:57, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

My source is the Constitution of India, as found on a government site, it says India that is Bharat, in English, please no original research.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 14:05, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Is there a reliable secondary source that says that Bharat is an English name for India? Your source is primary and does not explicitly state that Bharat is an English term. --rgpk (comment) 14:49, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Bharat is a Sanskrit name, so eventually it is a name, whichever language it is spelled.Thisthat2011 (talk) 18:00, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Well bowled RP, now that is a valid point, let me find it?Yogesh Khandke (talk) 00:50, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

(od)Here it is, it also thinks that there shouldn't have been a dichotomy, that Ceylon was renamed Shri Lanka (sic), and that Bharat is mocked by pseudo-secularists and Macaulian fourth generation intellectuals. I request you to read the text carefully unlike the instance when you deleted without reading on the Ganga page, I'll put a diff later.. May we have it in the article now Sir?Yogesh Khandke (talk) 00:59, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm afraid the reference is not a good one. It appears to be about the dichotomy between India and Bharat (possibly between secular ideals vs. Hindu ideals) and about an aspiration to rename India Bharat. That, unfortunately, only strengthens the case that India is the accepted English name while Bharat is an aspirational name on the part of nationalists associated with the RSS. Perhaps one day India will rename itself Bharat but, unitl then ... --rgpk (comment) 03:06, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Agree with RegentsPark. The source is an opinion voiced by someone who belongs to or sympathizes with the Hindu nationalist organization RSS, which, moreover, Yogesh Khandke, Sir, believes, according to the same page, that India is Hindu and the term "Hindu" doesn't connote religion. So should we put that in the first sentence of lead as well and say, "India is a Hindu nation in South Asia?" Anyone can find a source even for the craziest of assertions, you need to show that a preponderance of reliable sources state that India is the same as "Bharat." Moreover, for an FA the bar is set even higher, the sources need to be watertight ones, preferably academic, per Misplaced Pages policy which states, "Many Misplaced Pages articles rely on scholarly material. When available, academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources." In this case, scholarly peer-reviewed sources are available that attest to exactly the opposite, that India's English language name is "India." There is no reason to rely on a polemical tract of an extreme right wing organization, a tract that moreover is ungrammatical and full of spelling mistakes. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:31, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Reference here. I don't think anyone has capability to judge this and make comments on this simple assertion against this understanding that is held legally acceptable, it is okay to have divergent views. As it is, people calling India as India or Bharat as Bharat makes no difference to me.

By the way Fowlerx2, what do you mean by extreme right organization? Are you referring to RSS? Have you seen RSS doing Ku Klux Klan anywhere? Have you seen RSS having a political agenda of killing non believers to reach heaven? Who gave you permission to call RSS as an extremely right wing organization?Thisthat2011 (talk) 07:41, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Why does RSS, Hindi, etc. even figure in this discussion? --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 09:57, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

RSS figures at the mention of 'an extreme right wing organization' without giving any references to the source and its extremely right wing activities. Hindi is mentioned here because the name 'Bharat'-a Sanskrit name is mentioned in Hindi as another name of India which is objected to by some editors.Thisthat2011 (talk) 10:00, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

By the way, Thisthat2011, yes I mean the extreme right wing Hindu nationalist organization RSS whose members were implicated in the assassination of Mahatma Gandhi and which was banned in India in the early years of the Republic. How many water tight reliable sources do you want for any part of the above statement? And how will you eat crow when I produce them? Perhaps at the very least by not making irrelevant comparisons with the Klan on this page? And what is your story, Thisthat2011 (talk · contribs), you appear on Misplaced Pages a few weeks ago and hit the ground running with Hindu nationalism related edits. How are we to know that you are not a sockpuppet of a dear departed banned Wikipedian? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:37, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes please present the sources while ignoring facts like how RSS ban was lifted after trial in courts(which is conveniently ignored, as also stellar work done disregarding religion), please also mention how is entire RSS to blame without any agenda for behavior of a few(even one)(that way a lot can be blamed on say Christianity or British Empire as 'extremely right wing' despite thousands of yours of slavery witchunting and calling others demonic/uncivilized fit to be conquered/vanquished)? I would also like to understand accusations adding to my notoriety as a banned wikipedian free of charge before I signed in or is this just an acceptable behavior to keep on accusing with sharp wits everyone? Is it also acceptable behavior to accuse anyone in RSS who want to preserve culture of motherland as member of "an extreme right wing organization" with frivolous excuses? Or is it considered normal around here to ignore human rights of anyone who wants to preserve culture as far as Hinduism is considered?

I mean how can people ignore Human Rights of RSS members for any excuses for anything? Is a sharp sense in writing English necessary to be called civilized or are there a space for allowance of tiny amount of human rights points for all the work done by RSS? Is ignoring noble work while pointing out something controversial a trait that is allowed and is justified by a sharp intellect? Is it because RSS is an anathema to idea of some Hindus as casteist upper caste(RSS is not for any caste nor it is casteist and therefore leaves hardly any scope for critique as Hindu right wing) or that good work done by RSS is an anathema to this understanding that only some people are entitled to work for good of Humanity and justified to be given charity while not others(work done by RSS somehow decreases scope to ask for charity and work in only certain fashion in India and take credit in a particular manner)? Does RSS present a dilemma to a certain world view against disciplined work done in no grand way and pomp and beliefs while a fact remains that RSS is working in disciplined manner for good of humanity in India and RSS is not giving credit in a particular limits?

I would also like to know which of my edits are considered nationalists here? My own understanding is that I have not been any way Hindu nationalist. Is this a joke? Are there no Christian nationalists in Europe or Muslim Nationalists in Arab countries? Are their edits called in such a manner as "hit the ground running with ZBCDEFGHIJ religion nationalism related edits" or is this service extended only to Hindus in which case I can not complain being a Hindu!Thisthat2011 (talk) 12:24, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

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