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A news item involving Murder of Meredith Kercher was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the In the news section on 5 December 2009. [REDACTED] This article was nominated for deletion on 31 December 2007. The result of the discussion was keep. Trial of Knox and Sollecito was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 19 December 2009 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Murder of Meredith Kercher. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. The contents of the Meredith Kercher page were merged into Murder of Meredith Kercher on 13 November 2007. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. The contents of the Amanda Knox page were merged into Murder of Meredith Kercher on 13 November 2007. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page.

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Amanda Knox article

Perguia_Shock

I wasn't sure where to ask this, so if it is wrong here please remove it. Should it be noted that the Blog PerguiaShock that was shut down was actually put back up, literally in almost hours, and carried by another server and country? Of course all of this with Franks approval. --Truth Mom (talk) 03:12, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

I've thought about this, and it possibly does deserve a brief mention somewhere - it's pretty peripheral though. I don't know why Frank's approval would be necessary though. pablo 12:49, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

If a source exists, I support this. --Errant 13:48, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

RSs exist for taking down the blog, but only ones we generally consider unreliable (though the first one below might be ok) talk about it going back up in Sweden. For taking down the blog: and . For it going to Sweden and .LedRush (talk) 14:21, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

So, is the idea that we would have a section under the "Support for Knox and Sollecito" section on blogs, have one introductory sentence saying which blogs are out there (meaning, which blogs are mentioned in RSs, not every blog, of course), and another sentence saying perugia shock was shut down and reopened?LedRush (talk) 14:38, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Well the article already contains the text

On 10 May 2011 a blog written by Frank Sfarzo, and critical of Perugia law enforcement's conduct in the Kercher case, was shut down by court order. The order was granted by a Florence court to Mignini on the grounds of defamation. The Committee for the Protection of Journalists sent a letter to the Italian government protesting the action.

so all that needs to be added is some sourced text about its renaissance. pablo 14:40, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

RockSound has just made this edit. I am going to revert it but wanted to explain why first. Firstly he is re-adding the external link again; Perugia shock is an advocacy site and not a good external link. The second reason is that the new prose is saying precisely the same thing as the current text - just with more words. Writing in a concise manner is important, the new wording is clunky and starting to lengthen. This is a very minor side issue and we agreed that was how to deal with it. --Errant 19:58, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

You guys are 100% right on the external links (has anyone warned RockSound about 3RR?), but I actually thought his description is much easier to follow than the current. Of course, his language could have been more concise, but sometimes omitting a lot of information makes it difficult to understand, especially for readers who don't know as much about the case as we do. Regardless, couldn't the information about the site going back up be restored? I would think it is best to start from RockSound's writing and then try and pare it down.LedRush (talk) 20:05, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

I have had a word, if anyone wants to add, or clarify, anything please go ahead. pablo 23:40, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I kept the bit about it coming back - a better source would be good though. --Errant 20:13, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

If we can source the date Mignini filed the suite I support adding that, although I am cautious of this minor scuffle getting over-covered. --Errant 20:18, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Yes, a good revert - I was considering restoring the original text myself. While the new wording posed problems, Perugia Shock hardly seems to pass the criteria set down at WP:ELNO for inclusion as an external link. Furthermore, if that particular site is to be linked at the foot of the article, then balance would surely demand that a whole host of other blogs or forums (whether advocating guilt or advocating innocence) are included also - and that certainly would not be appropriate. SuperMarioMan 20:09, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps this should belong in a different section, but it seems to me that the blog-advocacy sites for this crime get more media attention than I've ever seen in relation to other crimes. Even if my estimation is wrong, couldn't we introduce some of the most popular sites (from both camps and as mentioned in RSs) in the support for Knox/Sollecito and the Kercher sections? I would think that a sentence or two would be enough.LedRush (talk) 20:14, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

The problem is that many of them are advocacy and contain swathes of unreliable content and strong points of view. I think it is a good idea to mention that these sites exist (if we can RS it, with some analysis) because this does have a lot of internet following. But naming the various sites, or linking to them seems dubious. FWIW most crimes have a decent online following, this case has dragged on a bit which is why they are still fairly prominent. There are blogs that advocate about crimes from, say, the 80's so Knox is not particularly unique. --Errant 20:18, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

r.e. the new content: the current source is somewhat unclear but seems to suggest that the site was taken down after a finding of defamation, so a source thatt more clearly supports the new wording would be appropriate. For the record; not coming to the talk page to discuss his edits as suggested and instead throwing claims of censorship into edit summaries has made me highly disincline to accommodate RockSound. So I will step away and let other people take this one. --Errant 20:40, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Usually we don't link to blogs at all unless they are neutral and add to the understanding of the article's subject. Now that the Perugia shock blog had sime minor attention in the media there is the possibillity to add it into the article (like it appears in the article at the time I'm typing this) but it's our call how much weight to give it. Surely it doesn't belong in the EL's section like all the other blogs don't belong there either.TMCk (talk) 22:15, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

This part of the story needs better sourcing. Personally, I suspect it may be interesting, but at the moment we it is covered by a newsblog, an internet-only local newsite and the CPJ, which is a primary source. Given that the article covers an international news story, I think we should be demanding a higher standard of sourcing for associated sideshows. --FormerIP (talk) 02:15, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

This source says the following, In February Mignini, who is known for harassing journalists who get too close to his investigations, filed a lawsuit against Perugia Shock for “defamation, carried out by means of a Web site.” here is the link to it, http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/amanda-knox-trial-blogger-silenced-by-google/2011/05/16/AFofFp4G_blog.html , the court document shows 23/02/11 ( have patients please I am trying to learn how to post all this) thank you Kindly --Truth Mom (talk) 04:25, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

That source is a blog, talking about another blog. FormerIP's point about the standard of sourcing is a valid one. pablo 05:47, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

It's a Washington Post Blog. It also seems to have editorial control and a clear association with the Washington Post. And it is used only for saying the blog was put back up (everything else is covered by a newspaper).LedRush (talk) 14:15, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

No comment on editorial control, it might have, might not. I know what it's being used to source, and have no objection to its use for that. However FormerIP's point about the standard of sourcing is a valid one. pablo 14:43, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

My point is: has this been picked up by any major news sources. If so, fine. If not, we need to maintain a standard generally. We can't pick and choose. Material which, IMO, is valid for the article, has been removed for appearing in The Daily Beast and the Daily Mail, which are RS. This aspect of the story is only noteworthy if it has proved to have legs. BTW, LedRush, West Seattle Herald doesn't appear to be an actual newspaper, it's a website. --FormerIP (talk) 02:13, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Major news covers Perugia Shock

Naturally, the act of Google Inc. to shutdown the Perugia Shock blog (now PerugiaShock.com), from Blogspot.com, as noted in the article, gained a lot of publicity. Here are some:

• MSNBC (from KING 5 Seattle) - "Amanda Knox trial blogger shut down", May 11, 2011: MSN63.
• NWCN (Washington/Oregon/Idaho) - "NWCN.com Washington - Oregon - Idaho", May 11, 2011: NWCN2

In American news reporting, the larger regional and national networks repeat and elevate local stories because U.S. reporters are required to abide by high standards of honesty, called "journalism" in the U.S. (as opposed to "tabloid journalism" or sensationalism); some U.S. reporters are not allowed to narrate commercial ads, to avoid perceptions of bias. The typical honesty of U.S. reporters has been required for decades, and that is why many U.S. reporters have been feared by some politicians (e.g. Richard Nixon).

Also, note how the Perugia Shock blog has been reported in other international reports about the murder case. In the past, Google has required about 3 weeks to index a newly-named website, such as Perugiashock.com (renamed), so the current website indexing could be viewed as a positive action by Google to restore Perugia Shock under a new URL. Check Google Search for: site:Perugiashock.com (currently only 17 webpages, versus 427 as old website) for growth, as the website indexing expands. A website can mark some webpages for no-indexing by Robots.txt or "robots nofollow" but otherwise, all hundreds or thousands of webpages, in each website, have been indexed by Google spiders, after a few weeks. -Wikid77 (talk) 07:02, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

I think the shutting down is pretty well sourced (those sources are ok... but we seem to be using better ones, with less invective). What would be really good is a source that discusses it coming back up. As to the rest... please can you stop speculating on the talk page, you've been told about this before... it all seems to tangential and irrelevant. i.e. no sources... --Errant 08:57, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I'd certainly like to see some sources discussing the website coming back up. (Also for the the comparative honesty of US journalists v journalists from other countries, although that's not really relevant to this article, I'm just curious). pablo 13:06, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Pablo, the difference is, in the US we separate news and tabloid pretty clearly. Errant, I have a hard time understanding your last idea. What is "i.e. sources" referring to?LedRush (talk) 14:06, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Your faith is touching, separating news reporting from sensationalism is hardly unique to the US (nor particularly a feature of US media) though. pablo 19:16, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

I was pointing out that the rest of the post was a large block of unsourced speculation (?) and was asking why it was posted, because the aim is unclear :) --Errant 14:19, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Obviously, you don't need sources to discuss issues on a talk page. But what speculation are you talking about? You mean google reposting it?LedRush (talk) 14:29, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

The bit about journalism in the US seems irrelevant & I don't understand why Wikid77 has included it. The bit about Google combines some knowledge of the technical process with some speculation.... and again I'm struggling to understand why it was posted. Is it a suggestion for content? In which case are there any sources. Simple query really if it is not a suggestion for content and is just... speculation/commentary we've been over this before; this is not the place to think out loud --Errant 14:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

• Yes, if it's a suggestion for improvement to the article it needs to be clarified. If it isn't, what's the point of raising it? --John (talk) 14:35, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

This may not be a forum, but it is the perfect place to think out loud. Not every idea about improving the article comes fully armored from our heads; some need time to ferment, aided by constructive reactions to the thoughts. By exchanging ideas and knowledge, we get to better understand the underlying issues, and therefore write a better article. When Wikid expresses his ideas this innocuously, criticisms seem more mean than constructive.LedRush (talk) 15:14, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

• shrug* Apparently I don't see the underlying issues in this section, but if others do then fine. To me it looks like some opinion, totally unrelated to article content. It looks like a load of nonsense to me. And, yes, I am being a bit moody because, frankly, this is reaching a point way beyond tedium. --Errant 15:28, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

If this is tedius, don't extend it with unconstructive comments. The nature of the commenting and the tone of the board are not constants over which you have no control.LedRush (talk) 15:38, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

• The local-to-regional news connection is hinted in "Network affiliate" where the U.S. news is coming from "our affiliate station" but that article needs to be expanded to explain the copyright considerations when local news is repeated at a regional or national level, as accessed from a local affiliated station. I had noted that issue as a reason why other news-websites do not carry a news report: they must be careful when repeating a copyrighted report. The Google SEO process, to re-index Perugiashock.com, is a company-proprietary secret, so there are unlikely to be many sources about that, and I respect their position, and that is why I only gave a tiny portion of what I know about Google site-indexing for PageRank, but read "Robots.txt" and search: site:Perugiashock.com, as sources about the other aspects. Thank you for requesting sources, as that indicates the need for more sourced text to be added to our articles about these subjects. -Wikid77 15:05, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
  • For your edification; Google publishes plenty of technical detail about their indexing process, just nothing about the ranking process. The site has a lot of backlinks, very quickly, so no wonder it was indexed quickly. FWIW the size of Google's infrastructure means it is rare for a new site to remain un-indexed for more than a day. --Errant 15:32, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Errant, where are the sources for what you just claimed? Do you understand why other people are suspicious of your incorrect comments, when you do not even bother to provide sources, after insisting others provide them? Let me provide sources, for what I noted about Google:

• Google describes PageRank as 1 of 200 indexing factors - See "PageRank - Google", Google.com, web: G-tech.

• "My site isn't indexed yet!" - See "FAQ: Crawling, indexing & ranking", Google.com (web: G-FAQ-notindexed), which states, "Crawling and indexing are processes which can take some time and which rely on many factors. In general, we cannot make predictions or guarantees about when or if your URLs will be crawled or indexed. ..." If most new sites were indexed in 1 day, it is unlikely to have a "Frequently Asked Question" about "My site isn't indexed yet!". Instead, for years, the new-website indexing has been typically slow, which makes sense to deter rapid indexing of spam websites.

Folks, when I write something on the talk-page, I am fairly certain about the facts; however, since others tend to disagree and are often wrong, then I will try to add more sources so there might be fewer conflicts about the correct information I have posted. -Wikid77 (talk) 17:28, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

I was talking about sources referring to the content you seemed to be suggesting for the article (i.e. special treatment by Google). Based on my technical expertise, you are incorrect in parts of your speculation; http://research.google.com is the best place to start. I'd point out that despite being fairly certain of your facts you seem to have plucked "3 weeks" out of the air..my figure, at least, is based on my ample real world experience. --Errant 17:58, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

I came across additional sources on the Perugia Shock incident but didn't include them before since it seemed like there was already enough. I will go back and try to find them. RockSound (talk) 16:53, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Knife contained deadly evidence of: pasta

A leaked report indicates the "double-DNA knife" was scraped for residue, which matched a test for starch: pasta or bread (etc.). We should wait for the official court hearings, rescheduled for July 2011, but be prepared that the leaked information is true, and the knife blade did not have any evidence of human tissue.

In preparing the article for the results of the independent analysis, by 2 experts at La Sapienza University (in Rome), who re-testing the forensic evidence, be prepared to write some shocking results, so perhaps, provide multiple sources about the results of knife and bra-clasp testing. Also, according to the Massei Report, the clasp residue, collected from the 2 bra-clasp hooks, was divided into 2 samples, where the 2nd sample should be available, for DNA testing, from refrigerated evidence storage. The 1st sample matched to Kercher and partly Sollecito, in a ratio of 6-to-1 (see: Massei), but there is no way to predict if the 2nd sample will only match Kercher or others. Anyway, these are issues to bear in mind when considering the DNA hearings to be held in July. -Wikid77 07:44, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Time Magazine published an article on the leaks about the DNA :http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2061544,00.html RockSound (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:11, 23 May 2011 (UTC).

The Sun

The Sun can be a reliable source for some statements, and not for others. Generally, it is ok for sourced news and not for tabloid gossip, which appears to be its bread and butter, right?LedRush (talk) 22:00, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

It's at the bottom end of the British papers; I'd be inclined to just look for other sources At the end of the day if the content is reliable, better sources will have picked it up (or, rather, the Sun is probably picking it off them). I'd tend to avoid it for opinions (especially in this case). --Errant 22:13, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I echo that. Really not a good source to introduce into an article about such a contentious topic. The same information, if important, would be traceable to higher-quality sources. SuperMarioMan 22:18, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

I would agree; be very wary of using The Sun as a source for anything. pablo 23:36, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Documentaries

There has been quite an evolution in the info in this case since the tabloids first started sensationalizing this case in 2007 and 2008. It is best to rely on the most current info.

For purposes of presenting readers with the most current info on this much evolved case, I have reorderd the documentaries to list the 2011 reports first, with the 2008 reports last. Much of what was reported in 2008 is now viewed as incorrect.

In general, this article needs to be greatly updated with more current sources. RockSound (talk) 22:53, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Did anyone see British reporter Nick Pisa on the Today show this morning? If is he is now reversing his opinion and saying the prosecution's "house of card's has crumbled", then his sensationalized tabloid "Foxy Knoxy" articles especially from the early days should perhaps not be relied on any further in this article. RockSound (talk) 23:05, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Ordering the documentaries so that the most recent is listed first has little effect on how the article is read, if any - ultimately, it is quite a short list. Since the article does not describe the actual content of any of these programmes, "it is best to rely on the most current info" seems to me to be a rather weak rationale. And, quite separate from that, a chronological order based on the transmission dates would immediately seem to be a far more logical approach. SuperMarioMan 23:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

The rationale for using the most recent info is obvious. The old material is far less likely to be accurate. Much of what was reported early on has been shown to be false. The case has greatly changed since 2008. RockSound (talk) 23:44, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree with SuperMario that the most logical order would be based on date of airing. However, I could see us going alphabetical (like the books) or reverse chronological too...it really shouldn't matter much.LedRush (talk) 00:20, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

The list contains eight items, and gives only basic technical information for each - it is a list of documentaries, not a list of sources that support statements in the article text. I do not understand how it is so vital to ensure that the most recent is listed first on the off-chance that the reader will somehow be deceived into watching supposedly inaccurate material (when the article itself states nothing at all about the actual content of the programmes). We hardly need to order them based on our own original research points of view as to which ones are the more reliable. Furthermore, with the list being as short as it is, what sizeable difference to the reader's understanding does this particular form of ordering actually make? SuperMarioMan 00:30, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

I think I just said that the order isn't vital. I just don't see the big deal about reverse chronology or alphabetical (as the books are) either.LedRush (talk) 00:48, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, LedRush - in that last comment, I intended to address the points that RockSound originally made in response to me - hence the original single indent. I have restored it. Apologies for this misunderstanding. SuperMarioMan 01:25, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

• I've changed the order to alphabetical, which is one of LedRush's proposed alternatives. Just as we don't list the books in chronological order of release date, so it may be better just to avoid both forms of chronological listing for the documentaries. SuperMarioMan 17:29, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Excellent!LedRush (talk) 18:14, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Removal of the Injustice in Perugia book from listing of books on the case

I see no legitimate reason to delete the Injustice in Perugia book from the book list, while trashy material, unknown material, and even unpublished material has been included in that list.

Where does it say that the mere inclusion of a book in a list must meet the standards for "reliable source" ?

1) I note that the John Follain proposed book has been included in the list for months while it was not in fact even published (I just removed it).

2) I note that there is an Italian language book included in the list which was shown to be so false and defamatory that Amanda Knox won a court case against the author.

3) I note that the Angel Face book was published just by a website that Nadeau belongs to, and that she herself disparaged the book saying she had just slapped it together from her notebook--and it reads like that.

4) I note that there are other books included that no one knows anything about--so why are they listed?

In conrast, the Fisher book is very well written and well researched. Given the state of the list, and the standards used for the inclusion of books in other articles, it is not legitimate to exclude such an impressive and well researched book. RockSound (talk) 23:44, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Please read the archived discusssion I've linked to in my editsummary.TMCk (talk) 23:51, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

There is a discussion of the issue but not a clear resolution as far as I can tell. Please consider the other books in the list, as I noted above, to determine what the standards are that are really being used here. This Fisher book meets those standards and then some. RockSound (talk) 23:57, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

the Bruce Fisher book doesn't meet WP standards as already pointed out. If you have reservations about the other books you might want to make your case based on wp policies and guidelines for each of them.TMCk (talk) 00:07, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

What are these standards for inclusion on a book list? RockSound (talk) 00:11, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

For starters you can find some information Here and here. TMCk (talk) 00:40, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

That policy on self published books does not apply, since no one is relying on anything the authors of these books on the list are saying to construct the text of the Kercher article. The statements in these books have no bearing on whether or not the Kercher article is accurate, unless they are specifically cited for some factual or other item in the article. But most of these books are not relied on in the article for even a single sentence.

Also, this is not a biography of a living person, so the second policy does not apply. While of course there are concerns about defamation in a topic like this, in this instance the Fisher book actually undercuts some of the extreme defamation that Ms. Knox has been subjected to. It is ironic that a book that tends to clear her good name is being excluded under a policy intended to protect against defamation, while a book that has already been adjudged by an Italian Court to be defamatory is included on the list. Obviously there is a lack of a clear set of standards here.

Most importantly, the list is not a list of references. The list is obviously intended just to chronicle or list the books covering the subject matter, which is what a bibliography does. A bibliography is not concerned with evaluating the content but rather including all books that cover the subject matter without evaluation. Check the article on bibliographies on this website. http://en.wikipedia.org/Bibliography It is helpful for the readers to know about the mere fact that so many books have been written about this case. No one is saying that these books are reliable sources, nor does inclusion in a bibliography mean that. RockSound (talk) 00:53, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

• TMCk's links look rather compelling to me. --John (talk) 00:55, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
• I have removed the Waterbury book on the same grounds - from what I have read, it too is self-published. In response to RockSound, I would argue that the presence of the book list does call for some evaluation as to which titles are listed, depending on how they are published. This list is almost like a "Further reading" section for this article, and self-published books that have not been subject to external peer review would rarely be listed in such a section, regardless of the topic of the article. SuperMarioMan 01:14, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

I think that one survived because it was mentioned in secondary sources.LedRush (talk) 01:35, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

These standards are far from clear. What should be done here should be impartial and make some sense under the general policies against defamation. But it is ludicrous to say that a self-published book could be defamatory against a living person and therefore exclude any link or reference to it, while listing a book that has already been declared defamatory by an Italian court. Amanda Knox is indeed being defamed, but it is not a self published book that is defaming her. It is some of the other books. This is all just plain ridiculous. RockSound (talk) 01:21, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

And you expect us to discuss this with you while you edit war to restore these works for which the policy and consensus seems clearly be to exclude them? That is what seems ridiculous to me. --John (talk) 01:47, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

There was never any consensus to exclude the books, and it seems that the policy discussion is ongoing. Perhaps you could break from your habit of trying to inflame tensions as much as possible, whether by snark or insult, and actually contribute to a constructive conversation. While we're at it, Rocksound, you could settle down a bit, too. None of these changes are super-important, and giving time to discuss them shouldn't harm anything.LedRush (talk) 02:14, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

And yet I see you agreeing here, back in March, that these books are not regarded as reliable sources. Why then would we want to include them? --John (talk) 04:52, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

I am afraid of feeding the troll, but did you even read the link you put in here? Because we are not talking about using the books as reliable sources, I write: "Can someone point to any WP policy at all regarding why they couldn't be included in the "books about the murder" section? I think the only guideline would be that they aren't notable. Have any secondary sources referenced the books?". And then I link to a secondary source mentioning one of the books. Please, try and be intellectually honest in your posts, especially when it is so easy to catch you in a misrepresentation of the truth. When you distort the truth in this manner, it taints everything else you do.LedRush (talk) 12:33, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Please dial down the assumptions of bad faith a bit there. Your post is an example of the sort of thing that creates a toxic and uncollegial environment here, and has the effect of reducing people's willingness to get involved in this area. It also reduces the likelihood that your own opinion will be taken seriously, when you respond to a simple question with a lot of guff about your interpretation of my supposed motives. Once again, why would we want to mention a book if it is not regarded as a reliable source? --John (talk) 16:48, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Please dial down the assumptions of bad faith a bit there. Your posts are examples of the sort of thing that creates a toxic and uncollegial environment here, and has the effect of reducing people's willingness to get involved in this area. It also reduces the likelihood that your own opinion will be taken seriously, when you respond to a simple statement with a lot of guff about your interpretation of my supposed motives. Once again, you should try reading people's posts before attacking them.LedRush (talk) 17:08, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

How are the other books reliable sources? One of them has been adjudged false and defamatory by an Italian court because it held concocted fantasies about Knox's alleged sex life out as fact. Yet I see no one deleting the defamatory books, only the non-defamatory ones. This is surely against Misplaced Pages's interests, since this site's policies seem very focused on avoiding defamation.RockSound (talk) 05:20, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

The standard for including an external link is about the same as for a reference. The point of the external link is that it includes material that the article doesn't currently cover. (If the article covered it, then there would be no need for an external link.) If the material were added to the article, it should have reliable references. Excluding a biased, self-published, book is a reasonable action. The person wishing to insert text needs to justify it. What compelling information would such a book offer? A claim that other poor quality links are already included is not a justification; there's a WP code word for that rationale, but it escapes me right now. Glrx (talk) 01:55, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

• "What compelling information would such a book offer?" It would offer a balance to the defamation in the other books included in the list and the defamation in this very article. RockSound (talk) 05:25, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

• We had discussed the omission of the book "Injustice in Perugia" with the self-identified author User:BruceFisher, to allow him to continue discussing the article, and making edits, without a direct conflict of interest which would arise if his book were listed in the article. By contrast, the self-identified author User:CandaceDempsey has refrained from editing the article (and only edited the talk-page to refute some derogatory remarks which other editors wrote about her, on the talk-page), while her book Murder in Italy has remained on the list within the article. -Wikid77 02:18, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Such obvious double standards. I just checked and found that the Will Savive book is self-published as well. http://www.delgrandepublishing.webs.com/ Yet it has been on the list for a long while now. I guess his involvement in the very pro-guilt TJMK site, which is full of horrible defamation against Knox and her family, makes him "neutral" and "a reliable source"? http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/will_savive_on_amanda_knox_on_the_witness_stand_on_the_morning_of_june/ If the Savive book can rightly be on the list, so can the Fisher and Waterbury books. RockSound (talk) 06:03, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with RockSound. We need to decide whether a self-published book should be included; and then approach them equally. I've read (or at least scanned) most of the self-published books and I don't think they really add much - most aren't the best books in the world and all of them seem to have a partisan view. So I'd support just excluding self-published and vanity press books. --Errant 07:34, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Any book that is defamatory should be removed. That is what is crucial. The book "Amanda and the Others" must be removed due to the court ruling that it is defamatory, as well as the Nadeau book that calls Knox "the student killer." That is defamatory unless and until it is established in a final judgment that Knox is a killer, which is unlikely, but if it happens it could be one or two years away. Even Nadeau doesn't seem to believe that Knox is a killer any more, as she thought when she wrote the book. So these books that paint Amanda and Raffaele as killers are clearly absolutely defamatory if the students are acquitted during the two appeals. Sure these are not self published books but they are wrong and defamatory. Since the whole Misplaced Pages policy on self published books is to reduce the risk of defamation, allowing these defamatory books to stay listed, while removing those self published books which respond to that kind of defamation with redeeming information is clearly ass-backwards. RockSound (talk) 08:05, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

The policy on self-published books is to avoid fringe opinions or partisan views that are published without editorial oversight. --Errant

(chat!) 08:13, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Remove all self-published books per WP:SPS. --John (talk) 14:07, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

It seems like you guys are referring to different policies. John, is it your contention that the policy regarding including a list of books is that each listed book must past the reliable source criteria? It is possible that that is so, but I was operating under that idea that we should be applying normal notability standards. That would mean that if the books are mentioned in secondary sources, they may be notable enough to include (along with other notability factors). The Fisher book seems not to be mentioned in standard secondary sources, though it has received many informal reviews on the websites from which it is sold. The Waterbury book is referenced in one secondary source, as I pointed out the last time this discussion came up. I haven't looked for any other books.LedRush (talk) 14:22, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Well, there is no actual strongly affirmed policy on what to include in "further reading"/bibliography sections (apart from the rather vague WP:FURTHER). It is largely editor discretion. TBH given the partisan nature of this topic, sticking to reliably published reference books seems sensible. But I'm not overly bothered, LedRush's argument r.e. secondary sources seems equally sensible. --Errant 14:29, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Actually, there is Misplaced Pages:Further reading, which would preclude including the SPS's. But it does not appear to be policy yet. --Errant 14:30, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the Savive book, there is an article at something called the Student Operated Press which discusses him and his book, but I can't read it because the site crashed my browser each time. The book is sparsely, though favorably, reviewed on Amazon.LedRush (talk) 15:24, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Amazon reviews, being user-generated, do not count as third party sources. --John (talk) 17:18, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Hence the reason no one claimed they did.LedRush (talk) 17:27, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Well if there is no actual policy on what to include in the bibliography section, then the policy should be to remove all defamatory material, and allow non-defamatory material if it has some merit to it, such as being well researched. It seems that the policy applied thus far has been to allow defamatory books but remove the non-defamatory ones. I think this issue needs to go to some sort of independent review board. RockSound (talk) 18:17, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

I would argue that in the absense of a specific policy, generally notability guidelines would be applied. Of course, BLP considerations should be weighed as well. While I generally don't see a problem with including books in general (even if their contents would constitute a BLP violation if reprinted in this article), in the interest of clarity and finality, I would suggest not including the Savive and Fisher books, but including the Waterbury book as it is mentioned in at least one RS (meaning, the standard for this article would be either independent publication or reference in at least one RS). It is somewhat arbitrary, but somehow feels fair and "right" at the same time. LedRush (talk) 18:28, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Additionally, there is only one book which has been proven to contain defamation and it is included because Knox's defamation case is mentioned and the book is noted for this reason. You seem to be equating defamation = negative which is not true. Defamation must be proven. Nadeau's book has not been proven so.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 18:53, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Ah... reading into the details of the court case the book was not done for defamation but violation of privacy over the details published. So I don't see an issue with it per se. --Errant 19:06, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

The book was proven to have printed a complete fabrication about the so-called Albanian (source) which means that it does contain defamation (proven). I believe the suit started out as a defamation case that the Italian courts reduced to the privacy case.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 20:00, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

BLP Concerns in Bibliography Section

Rocksound has argued that books that are "defamatory" towards living persons should not be included in our bibliography, and made the corresponding edit here . While I disagree with his interpretation , I can't say it is definitely "wrong". Is there a WP policy on including books in a bibliography even if their contents would constitute a BLP violation if reprinted in this article? It seems we need to resolve this issue. Also, as Rocksound has presented BLP concerns for his removal of tex, I haven't reverted his edit, though I would prefer keeping the text in until resolution is attained here.LedRush (talk) 18:45, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Can a convicted murderer be defamed by books discussing the conviction, the convict's involvement in the crime, and so on? This seems like a pretty tenuous position to stake. Tarc (talk) 18:50, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps you'd like to discuss comment on actual positions people have taken?LedRush (talk) 19:07, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)No policy I can think of off-hand. I don't really know how best to consider these... although it is worth pointing out that we regularly use information from RS's where we choose not to use some of the information (for example names) - so there is a parallel there. RockSound wrongly equates BLP to defamation, but the definition is wider than that - if defamation has occured in those books that is pause for thought. I don't agree with his argument that the title of the Nadeau is a problem, on the other hand, I have the book and it isn't very good. So support removal on the basis it isn't wonderful. Ultimately this is editorial discretion, so whatever we agree really --Errant 18:53, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

RockSound started by wanting to include Fisher but has made an argument that sounds to me like other stuff exists and I don't like it then has moved towards being pointy with a notion of throwing out those things he doesn't like.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 19:00, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

That is an excellent point of view regarding an individual editor. Do you have anything to discuss about this topic?LedRush (talk) 19:09, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

This is on topic as you have founded it with what RockSound wants. I agree with what Tarc has phrased in a question, as well as what Errant has said that RockSound hasn't got the right understanding between BLP and defamation so that this topic isn't really a concern.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 20:11, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

I am not sure why you and Tarc are missing the topic, so I'll try again. "Is there a WP policy on including books in a bibliography even if their contents would constitute a BLP violation if reprinted in this article?". If not, how should we approach this issue?LedRush (talk) 20:23, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Printed sources, even the ones we use for citations often have information included that we wouldn't include in our articles, but we still can link to them. Just think about names of victims that are freely available in the press or in books. So we use the source but we leave out (in our text) what would be a BLP-violation on WP.TMCk (talk) 20:34, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Seems to make sense to me. I just thought that seeing as Rocksound was tinkering on the article based on BLP concerns, we should have a clear understanding of what can and can't be in the article with that topic in mind. Your view, and Errant's above, seem to jive perfectly with the one I also forwarded above.LedRush (talk) 20:38, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

"...even if their contents would constitute a BLP violation if reprinted in this article" is not a statement to which I give much credibility. Tarc (talk) 22:59, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Then don't reply. You constantly taking conversations off topic with sarcasm and deliberate mischaracterization of others' ideas is unhelpful.LedRush (talk) 23:39, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

• If it is only in the case of Sarzanini's book that defamation has been proven, as Berean Hunter indicates in the section above, that would seem to be the only hypothetical BLP violation that we are dealing with here - would it not? Surely with anything else we would be venturing quite far into the realm of original evaluation and interpretation of the books. However, since the article makes reference to the defamation case, the omission of Sarzanini's publication from the bibliography would be something of an oversight. From what I can tell, only Dempsey's book is used to source text in the article, and that is still only for one sentence of text. SuperMarioMan 21:19, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Generally, the standard for a BLP concern would not be proven defamation. Therefore, each book could be a hypothetical BLP violation. However, I agree with TMCk and Errant's analysis above that the actual text included in the article would need to be a BLP violation, not merely the title of a book which contains info which would be a BLP violation. I don't see a need to remove any books from the bibliography based on BLP concerns.LedRush (talk) 21:28, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the second half of that comment reflects the view that I hold. It is a standalone list of books, of which only one (Dempsey's) is also used as a source. The article does not comment on the reliability of the publications (besides the one case of proven defamation). BLP is a spurious argument for removal. SuperMarioMan 21:40, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

A requirement of WP:FURTHER is that the publication be recommended by the editor (which I would take to be a consensus of editors). Hence an evaluation and interpretation is implied. Other recommendations suggest that the publication be balanced (an aspect of a reliable source?). I would be leary of self-published works pushing a point of view; if those works were included, then they need something to recommend them -- such as notoriety for illegally publishing private information. If listed for notoriety, then I would expect a comment stating that (so it does not look like recommended reading). Glrx (talk) 23:23, 24 May 2011

(UTC)

These values make no sense at all to me. Why should a self published book that has included material illegally be included, but a self published book of good quality be excluded? My head is spinning. This is all being done haphazard with no set of guidelines or common goals. The bibliography should be set forth according to some coherent set of goals and guidelines.

Perhaps we need to agree on that first. Why don't we compile a list of what the goals are here and how we go about meeting those goals.

This is a list for everyone to add to as we brainstorm:

The bibliography should be aimed at meeting what goals?

• 1) inform the readers about books available to them for further reading on the case
• 2) make it easier for them to know what is out there about the case
• 3) list the works that others have done showing the great level of interest in the case
• 4) include books presenting all views, guilty, innocent and in between
• 5) avoid listing books that are defamatory
• 6) include a wide variety of books, including self published if of good quality and not trashy
• 7) basically just let the reader know what is out there, without taking a position on any book, with a disclaimer stated at the top of the bibliography list. We don't HAVE to recommend any book, just put it all out there except for defamatory material.
• 8) anyone else?

"Quality" is vague and subjective concept - what is "good quality" to some will be poor quality or "trashy" to others. Some will view certain books as "defamatory" more strongly than others. I take issue with the ideas behind points 5 and 6. Point 7 would seem to contradict itself: if we are to exclude material considered "defamatory", then it would seem that already we are adopting a position on the books. Yet, as with the documentaries, the article gives no information about the majority of these publications (with the exceptions of Dempsey being used once as a source, and Sarzanini's involvement being mentioned elsewhere) besides titles, authors and basic technical information: simply listing titles without commentary does not amount to Misplaced Pages endorsing perceived defamation that may or may not exist (BLP concerns, for example, seem to be thin on the ground). SuperMarioMan 00:40, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

So you feel that there should not be an attempt to evaluate the books, just put them on the list even if defamatory, include a disclaimer, and let the readers decide for themsleves? Some of these books are clearly junk. RockSound (talk) 01:06, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps you'll get further if you don't accuse everyone that isn't you of being haphazard and having incoherent goals. I have set forth a very clear goal: notability.LedRush (talk) 01:19, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

I confess that I myself have not read any of these publications. Neither have I watched any of the documentaries or seen the TV film. I have no personal opinions on these works, and most of what I do know is based on what I have read at this talk page. I'm now definitely coming around to the view that notability (from significant coverage in reliable secondary sources) would be the best measure for determining which books should be included and which should not. Also, I would argue that a disclaimer would be going too far - not particularly encyclopaedic. SuperMarioMan 01:45, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Rocksound's recent edits

I am coming up against 3rr based solely on reverting edits of his which I don't think add much value, or which actively make the language less encyclopedic. I guess I could just wait and revert all of his edits, but some aren't so bad. Rocksound, would you consider discussing some of your reasoning here before editing? This is a contentious article and changes aren't usually best made en masse.LedRush (talk) 01:55, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Boldly reverted - I'm not at 3RR. For the sake of a "restore point", so to speak, I used my last revision. Some of the changes may be beneficial, but this does not seem to me to compensate for the effect of moving sections about and changing their titles. RockSound, could you please elaborate on these proposed changes here, before they are implemented? SuperMarioMan 02:11, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

I am putting in the dates to make a long confusing article less confusing. Dates would surely help. It amazes me that even those edits get deleted. It is very frustrating to put all this time in and someone removes my work while I am in process. I can see why Mr. Wales had such disappointment in this article and the way things are proceeding on it. RockSound (talk) 02:18, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

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