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This noticeboard is for discussing the application of the biographies of living people (BLP) policy to article content. Please seek to resolve issues on the article talk page first, and only post here if that discussion requires additional input.

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Additional notes:

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• For general content disputes regarding biographical articles, try Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Biographies instead.
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• Refining the administrator elections process
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Ray Lewis

Ray Lewis (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Section 4 titled Arrest for Murder uses speculative information and a testimony as factual information. References 25 specifically. The section suggest Ray Lewis is guilty and presents him in a negative light. The section should read like this:

Lewis gained infamy through his involvement in a much-publicized tragedy in Atlanta after Super Bowl XXXIV. Lewis, along with Reginald Oakley and Joseph Sweeting, were charged with two counts of murder and four other felony counts in the deaths of Richard Lollar and Jacinth Baker, after a street brawl left two young men dead outside a nightclub.

On June 5, a plea bargain was struck, and murder and aggravated assault charges against Lewis were dropped in exchange for his testimony against his companions. He pled guilty to one count of obstruction of justice and was sentenced to a year of probation. NFL Commissioner Paul Tagliabue fined Lewis $250,000 for conduct detrimental to the league, a penalty aimed at the obstruction of justice.

Lewis' testimony didn't help the prosecution in the four-week trial, which ended in acquittals for Oakley and Sweeting.

The following year, Lewis was named Super Bowl XXXV MVP. However, the signature phrase "I'm going to Disney World!" was given instead by quarterback Trent Dilfer.

In 2004, Lewis reached a settlement compensating then four-year-old India Lollar, born months after the death of her father Richard, preempting a scheduled civil proceeding. Lewis also previously reached an undisclosed settlement with Baker's family. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Burnsy1627 (talk • contribs)

mohamed faarax aidid

Mohamed Farrah Aidid (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

List of Presidents of Somalia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

somalia has never had a president since mohamed siad barre (1991) - ali mahdi mohamed was a self-declared one but for a short period of time between january and june 1991. Please remove mohamed faarax aidid and hussein mohamed faarax aidid from somalian presidents' list. There is no somalia central state since 1991. Merci

(Undent)You make a good point. I have left a note at the list's talk page, pointing here to BLPN. Following are excerpts from the Concise Encyclopaedia of World History by Carlos Ramirez-Faria (Atlantic Publishers & Dist, 2007):

Somalia fragmented into warlordist fiefs in 1991 and Barre had to leave the country....Since 1995, Somaliland has been stable with its own president, Mohammed Haji Ibrahim Egal....Elections gave the presidency of Somaliland to Dahir Rayale Kahin, re-elected in 2003....A count by a reporter in November 2003 put at five the number of would-be presidents of Somalia.

So, it looks like you're correct that Barre was the last president, and the others should come off the list.Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:22, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

family kocovic

AS I REMEMBER as a child about my fathers side of the family, Kocovic, my grandparents Savo and Milijana have roots in Monte Negro, now I am not completely sure how long ago was that family Kocovic migrated, however they settled in Ribnica, near Kraljevo. Savo and Milijana had Cedomir, Dragomir, Milijana (Mica), Dusan (my father) and three other kids. My grandfather Savo is killed during WW-II on his doorstep by chetniks, while his two sons where killed in Banjica, concentration camp, during WW-II. Their property has been confiscated by Yugoslavian goverment in 1945. and they are left with small block of land. All of Kocovic family has been fighting against fashist regime, some of them has perished but some of them like Milijana, Dusan, Cedomir and Dragomir survived WW-II. Kocovic Dragomir (nearly blind) and Kocovic Dusan have had carear in Yugoslav army, long time retired before civil war on Balkans erupted.

Clifford Vaughs

• Clifford Vaughs (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

In 1969, Clifford Vaughs and Lew Irwin were awarded by the Associated Press California, "Best Documentary" for "Berkely Third World or Third Reich". Special award for "The Most Creative Presentation of the News" for "Credibility Gap". Vaughs and Irwin formed VIP (Vaughs/Irwin Productions) and produced the shows at KRLA radio, Pasadena California. "Credibility Gap" went into syndication.

J. Patrick Capps

J. Patrick Capps (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I am the subject of this article, and while I am flattered someone thinks enough of me to create a[REDACTED] page, I am concerned it might detract from my work. I will request that my page be deleted as soon as possible.J. Patrick Capps Monday, June 20, 2011 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.193.33.174 (talk • contribs)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/J. Patrick Capps (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Ernesto J. Cordero

Ernesto J. Cordero (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

1) In the level of PERSONAL LIFE it appears that he dropped out the Ph. D. in Economics. This is false, his current status is all but dissertation (ABD)

2) Controversy: His net earnings are not 200,000 pesos. The correct info is 145, 000 pesos.

3)Controversy: This is the transcript with the exact words in page 8.

Pauline Nyiramasuhuko

Pauline Nyiramasuhuko (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Her article lacks a date of birth, and there's no right-hand sidebar of vital statistics as all other biographic articles seem to have. Given that an international court has just convicted her, surely her approximate age has been stated *somewhere* ?

The article has said "born 1946" since last year (2010), in the first sentence. The source is a New York Times article which says: "Pauline Nyiramasuhuko was born in 1946 amid lush banana groves and green, misty valleys." So, the approximate age is 65.Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:28, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Robert W. Harrell, Jr.

Robert W. Harrell, Jr. (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

This individual is a politician in South Carolina. Information that reflects negatively upon him has been removed from his biography on more than one occasion and replaced with puffery, likely written by members of his staff.

Animal X

Animal_X_(band) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Article 'animal x (band) is about a music band from the country of romania. Please consider it is not a living person. It got me confused expression wikipedia:biographies of living persons and Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons.. should it not tagg articles for living characters in the band?

David Goodwillie

The person David Goodwillie has had his rape charge dropped . Should the entire inclusion at the controversies section of the article relating to this charge be removed due to no conviction? Monkeymanman (talk) 16:39, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

It's been widely reported, been a major issue in his move from Dundee Utd not happening as yet. AS long as it includes the fact the case was dropped, then it's balanced and relevant. Minkythecat (talk) 19:33, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Personally not to mention it all is wrong it was a major case in scotland, Its been reported that his proposed transfer to rangers and cardiff were delayed as they wanted to wait until his court case was confirmed before it went through. He may not of been convicted but it should be mentioned. Probably a lot played down than it currently is but at least it should be there for some context. As it did happen we cant blank that from history Warburton1368 (talk) 19:36, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Agreed - maybe worth focusing on the case being dropped as the focal point rather than several links to the case. Minkythecat (talk) 19:40, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

For the reason that he was accused, charged and then all charges dropped (even before it got to court) it proves he was in effect (in legal terms) innocent of any crime. With regards to transfers, both clubs have had bids in for the player (which was reported) which were rejected because they did not match the clubs valuation, they did not say they were going to wait to see the outcome of this case before deciding over a possible transfer. Monkeymanman (talk) 19:43, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Cardiff bid was accepted. The potential outcome of this case would have been far worse than the pending assault case. Move may occur fairly soon. Minkythecat (talk) 19:49, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

There has to be some mention and it was mentioned in several sources that cardiff were in no hurry to push transfer through and were waiting for the outcome of whether the case was to be dropped. This was expected to be announced a few weeks ago but was delayed by the Crown Office. The section has been greatly reduced which is probably the correct action but we should mention it. Nobody is saying he is guilty it certainly dosent sat it in the article but history shouldn't be wiped altogether Warburton1368 (talk) 19:55, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

I disagree. Even the one sentence is too much. It leaves the lingering impression that there may have been some truth to the charges ("insufficient evidence"), even though, not only did the Crown refuse to prosecute, but he was never convicted. The fact that the events leading up to the dropping of the charges were "widely reported" is irrelevant. That is always the danger of us report on evolving news stories as if we're a newspaper rather than an encyclopedia. The sentence is a violation of WP:BLP ("it is not Misplaced Pages's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives, and the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment").--Bbb23 (talk) 00:51, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

I support Bbb23 in this position in regard to cautious interpretation of WP:BLP also - the detail imo if belonged anywhere would be at the accusers article, but they are not notable... - In February ***** accused a man of rape, after investigating the police dropped all charges against the man and said there was insufficient evidence to charge. It might seem high profile event in his life now in the press but in a few years[REDACTED] will be the only place the continues to report it. - Ask yourself - is it really encyclopedic long term content - 20 years ago jonny was accused of rape by a woman, after investigations the police dropped all charges saying there was insufficient evidence of rape. Off2riorob (talk) 01:24, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Support complete removal. Big news in 2011 is not encyclopedic content relative to the person's whole career. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 01:22, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Removed and left the addition-er a note to please discuss here. Off2riorob (talk) 01:25, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

If Off ( and there's an apt name ) had a brain cell, he'd see my "addition" was in fact a subtraction, to mention the case but lessen the number of links to articles about it. As I pointed out earlier, it needs stressing the case was dropped... yet a numpty claims that's leading... Minkythecat (talk) 18:11, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Minjythecat's comment are getting a bit personally attacking hee and on his talkpage, I have left his a personal attack template. Off2riorob (talk) 18:17, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Might want to use a spell checker there. Nice to see you've arbitrarily decided the way the article should look based around a few negative comments from 3 people within a half hour time frame. Minkythecat (talk) 18:28, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Of course this needs mentioning, it's received incredible amounts of press coverage in the UK, and erasing it completely from his article smacks of censorship. However, we need to choose the wording very carefully, to be as neutral as possible. GiantSnowman 18:33, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

The Scotland national football team manager Craig Levein has said the allegations were a factor in him not selecting Goodwillie (source). That is a clear and demonstrable effect on his career. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 18:37, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

It needs to be reinstated into article in context with careful wording but it must be there. Ive said this before we cant wipe history it happened whether he is guilty or not. The article wouldn't say he was Guilty it would say there was insufficient evidence to proceed. Along as its well referenced whats the problem. His football carrer has been effectively on hold whilst the case was being decided on. Clubs said they were willing to wait on the outcome of the case before placing full transfer bids. Warburton1368 (talk) 18:42, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

With regards to BLP policy it should be removed. That has been stated on numerous BLP articles where they have been accused, charged and then all charges are dropped. His career was not on hold, he played almost everygame last season for United, if it was on hold he would have been dropped or forced to leave the club (just like Craig Thomson (footballer) except he was found guilty in a court of law, see the diff). Which club said that they were waiting to see the outcome of the trial? (which never emerged) Or was it just editorial judgement on reporters parts. Monkeymanman (talk) 19:14, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Craig Levein clearly stated last night that his international career had been on hold pending this process. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 19:19, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Funny how he mentions that after the charge is dropped. If there was any weight behind his statement he would have come out and said when goodwillie was first charged that he was not available for selection until his court case is completed. Monkeymanman (talk) 19:52, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't matter how or why he said it, he did. Therefore it is clearly an important factor in Goodwillie's career to date. Levein picked him for the last game before the incident (the Faroe Islands match in November) and hasn't picked him in the three matches since (Brazil, Rep. Ireland and Wales). His comments yesterday indicate that he will be picked for the next game (Denmark), fitness permitting. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 20:24, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Agreed, these allegations have affected his career, and therefore needs mentioning. GiantSnowman 20:27, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

re the level of transfer interest, this BBC report states: "Interest in the player has grown since a rape charge was dropped against him earlier this week, with up to 10 clubs now believed to be monitoring the situation." Jmorrison230582 (talk) 20:13, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

I think that we need to mention the fact that the charges were dropped and that while they were pending, they affected his career. One or at most two sentences ought to be sufficient. (It will be easier to figure out the perfect balance a few years from now.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:00, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Done in the international career section. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 06:09, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

• From the BBC - "The Dundee United striker, who is in talks with Blackburn, was overlooked for recent games as he faced criminal charges but the case has been dropped." GiantSnowman 17:21, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Gudrun Schyman

Gudrun Schyman (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I'm Swedish, and thus have a lot more sources availible than the average wikipedian with regards to the subject. Still, this was (is) a mess of such proportions that I don't think I can fix it. Maybe crowdsourcing it here can make it less headache-inducing. Good grief.

Fiona Graham

Disputes taking place within this article are potentially harmful to the career of Sayuki, and may infringe on her rights to be a part of the Geisha community despite her Western heritage. There is dispute concerning:

- Whether Fiona was the first Western Geisha or not

- What should be the name of the article (and whether it should refer to 'Sayuki' throughout with no mention of Fiona)

- The matter of whether Fiona is still working, or working independently, or something in between.

An independent and objective evaluation would be extremely valuable in finding middle ground, balancing Fiona's rights and Misplaced Pages's principles, and ending editing wars. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrceep (talk • contribs) 05:08, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

A quick search of the archives reveals that this has been discussed before... – ukexpat (talk) 13:59, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

It has been discussed at length on the talk pages, too. The article as it stands reflects consensus and conforms to Misplaced Pages policies. Most, if not all, objection comes from a handful of IP addresses and single-purpose accounts which all appear to belong to Graham herself. Your Lord and Master (talk) 01:14, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Edit: The three points that Graham raised above have already been addressed. (1) She was not the first Western geisha -- that was Liza Dalby and there are references to prove it. (2) The name of the article is Fiona Graham and her geisha name of Sayuki is mentioned when appropriate. (3) The article does imply that she is still working but not as a member of Tokyo Asakusa Association. Lastly, the phrase "her rights to be a part of the geisha community" is laughable, given that one needs to be invited in, and can be expelled (as Graham found) at any time by the kumiai. Your Lord and Master (talk) 01:18, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Anders Behring Breivik (3)

In his 1,500 page manifesto Anders Behring Breivik apparently mentioned, quoted, or in other ways cited a fairly large number of individuals. Perhaps unsurprisingly, Misplaced Pages editors are now adding that information to some of their biographies (typically authors who have been critical of Islam or Islamism), in what appears to be an attempt at guilt by association. Here are some examples:. Sometimes this information is even added to the article's lede (e.g. ]). It seems to me that this is a pretty clear violation of WP:BLP, and I thought it would be good to discuss this as a systemic issue, rather than debating it on each article's Talk: page. Jayjg 00:25, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't even think we have to go as far as WP:BLP, just simple logic suffices to keep the information out. The fact that Breivik, in his massive personal tome, chose to talk about one subject or another, does not mean that Breivik should be mentioned on the articles of those subjects. For instance, if Breivik happened to include in his manifesto a few pages talking about why he thinks that McDonald's is a model corporation, would we include the info there? If he noted that he wrote much of it while staying in New South Wales, would we include that in the NSW article? Of course not. By that logic, every time any "famous" person mentioned anything in a book, then we would include that information in that page. Basically, putting Breivik on those pages is arguing that Breivik's opinions somehow meet WP:DUE on the subjects in question, which they obviously do not. Now, if, for example, we were to learn that Breivik trained with some famous anti-Muslim group, then that might (just might, depending on all the details) belong on that group's page. But not his random opinions. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:49, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

It clearly appears as guilt by association - this living person was mentioned by a mass murderer - its only notable about the author - Breivik. I looked at a couple and removed them - I left one because the subject has commented about the fact that he was mentioned - he said that Breivik also mentioned President Obahma. Robert_Spencer_(author)#2011_Norway_attacks - really even though he has legitimized it in some small way by responding to the fact, I still want to remove it as negative coatracking in a BLP Off2riorob (talk) 01:01, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

This is what happens when people decide that Breveik is notable on his own, outside of the event he created. A slippery slope we should never have started down.Griswaldo (talk) 01:07, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Though I should add that the coming years will not be kind to people like Robert Spencer in this regard. In a year or two you'll have scholarship that ties Breveik to his sources in a way that is much more meaningful, and I will not personally object to those sources being used at that time.Griswaldo (talk) 01:12, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree that these passing mentions by Breivik in his manifesto should be removed from other articles. However, I disagree with Griswaldo's good faith opinion that this problem is due to the fact that we have a separate article on Breivik. Nothing would prevent ill-advised editing of this sort even if Breivik didn't have his own article and was discussed only in a subsection of the article about the murders and bombing. BLP concerns don't go away when a person is described in a larger article rather than an article titled with a person's name. Let's face it, Breivik is and forever will be notable, and we have BLP issues to deal with wherever he (or anyone else controversial) is discussed in this encyclopedia. That's an ongoing problem that won't go away, but which can be managed through the normal editing process. Cullen Let's discuss it 03:36, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps there is a easy credit for someone that creates - Manifesto of Anders Behring Breivik - although they would have to put up with the possible disruption it might cause.Off2riorob (talk) 08:15, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Been done several times already; not notable for now; 2083 - A European Declaration of Independence, 2083 – A European Declaration of Independence, A European Declaration of Independence, 2083, A European Declaration of Independence, etc.  Chzz  ►  09:01, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

The same phenomenon seems to be going on in Anders_Behring_Breivik#2083:_A_European_Declaration_of_Independence. I'm minded to wipe the lot of them, living or dead. With so many cited in 1500 pages, mentioning any is arguably a breach of POV, even if BLP doesn't come into it. Views? --Dweller (talk) 13:41, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't buy the slippery slope argument because this is an encyclopedia anyone can edit, so, if you don't like it, be WP:BOLD. Of course, also get reverted.

The recentism-is-bad crowd, of which I am a wayward sheep, needs to stop blaming recenticism for all the ills surrounding recent event articles, and also needs to stop looking at every recent event as the same. As the guy who started the article in question, who defended it in AfD successfully, got an admin reversed for trying the old "redirect-full protection" trick (which is a much more serious breach of the rules than a debatable BLP1E vio - one dis-empowers editors in a finite fashion, the other can be reverted by process), and hence in part responsible for the article existence, I just knew by seeing how this played out in the news this guy was wiki notable. Such is not always the case with perps notable for a single event, but I just knew this kid was special - because when his name was released I knew the world's media who had screamed AL QAEDA to the top of their lungs had gotten it wrong, and when the media gets it wrong, it make sures to put whoever cl0wnd them under a microscope. So, lets be careful not to blame the existence of the article for the POV-pushing ways of a few sock/meatpuppets doin it wrong...

The presence of Jayjg here reminds me that stuff (such as sourced guilt by association, WP:UNDUE/WP:FRINGE issues, using wikipeida notability to mean that a person is suddenly allowed to expertly speak about any topic, and all the other niceties Jayjg -and others here- correctly identify that this child murderer's manifesto's is being misused for) also happen in very old topics. Such as the entire WP:ARBPIA area (in which recentism is also a problem, but not even the main one). So, slippery slope argument is not very convincing, and is in fact as reductio as those who think that Breivik is all of the sudden a reliable source on Zionism, the anti-Islamic right (or McDonald's!). I am on the record for stating that in the entire BLP on Breivik, at most a short sentence, but preferably a few words, suffice to address his relationship with Zionism. I think the guilt-by-association charge is fair, and there is no reason to believe that his Zionism is much more related to the actually important and central stuff of his Islamophobia. Saying he is a Zionist is not a slur, is a self-claim, but using that self-claim in an OR fashion to vandalize unrelated articles shouldn't be tolerated. Nor should drive-by "see also" includes be accepted. However, as to Jayjg's diffs, this is also guilt by association. A careful examination reveals that not all diffs are created equal. is sourced and in a pre-existing section, in which associations are made in the same fashion as that with Brievik. One cannot pick and choose who agrees with oneself, and unfortunately for Ms. Ali, Breivik did agree with her - so I think that is not a bad faith edit, but one subject to article consensus and editing. Likewise, but weaker because of the context it is placed in the article, with . However and specially are obvious drive-by, and shouldn't be allowed. I mean, "See also" inclusions are a classic way to establish guilt by association and a loophole to OR we somehow refuse to close.

Adding to the lede, however, I see no reason why, both in the actual article, and in the abstract. Brievik is notable, but he is not notable as an admirer or commentator on people, he is notable as a political militant who attacked civilians and children inspired by a set of politics. I think it is fair to state his interest on a given influence if sourced verifiably and subject to consensus. But drive-by behavior is another matter, as is giving undue weight, in particular in a BLP to inclusions that open the door to guilt by association.

I say we stop making the perfect the enemy of the good, and let the case-by-case consensus decide who is notable and who is not. I also say hunt down and block those who are vandalizing unrelated articles with Breivik's crap. --Cerejota (talk) 13:39, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm not clear why prominent reliable sources discussing this issue are being rejected as reliable sources - for example the New York Times and in Norwayt itself among others Dagbladet. Reference to the possible contributory role of the Counterjihadi internauts is not "drive by behaviour". It's a matter already in the public domain. Opbeith (talk) 15:32, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

• note - I also removed the see also Anders Behring Breivik from Geert Wilders BLP. Off2riorob (talk) 17:55, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

As a followup to Griswaldo's point, if there is scholarly literature regarding someone related to this point, then I wouldn't object to it being mentioned in his/her biography. For that matter, if there was consistent discussion on the topic spanning more than a few days or weeks, then that might provide relevant material. But when we're talking about a WP:BLP, and it's just the fact that someone was mentioned or quoted a few times in a 1,500 page manifesto, then I become quite concerned. Jayjg 01:09, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

• I agree. Pundits and other political commentators, especially those who find people like Robert Spencer distasteful, will of course jump on this kind of thing make commentary about it for political reasons. News organizations will also include the information, but that does not make it particularly meaningful yet. Another reason why we really ought to exercise more patience and discretion here when it comes to news events and living people.Griswaldo (talk) 01:20, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

We should probably keep an eye on Special:WhatLinksHere/Anders_Behring_Breivik. Morrissey is on there, for gosh sakes. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 01:28, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

I've just gone so far as to claim that inserting this information into biographies of living people is such a clear violation of BLP that it meets the 3RR exemption, on the article Srđa Trifković. We'll see, I guess, what happens there. Appreciate advice from others if you think I'm going too far. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:25, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree. I deleted a lot of the mentions I found on that list in other BLPs and in other non-BLP entries. I have also questioned some others. For instance Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami seems not to be notable at all, but for the fact that someone supposedly representing this group, if it even exists, claimed responsibility for Breveik's actions early on before the perp had been identified. What links to Breveik should be continually monitored as Peregrine suggests.Griswaldo (talk) 03:09, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Some attention to No true Scotsman would also be welcome in the related BLP fallout here. People are insisting on inserting an example of Bill O'Reilly's claim that Breveik is not a Christian into the article.Griswaldo (talk) 04:13, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Something that I wish that some of you would consider is the possibility that the side effect from the "get the Big Bad POV pushers and BLP violators" mentality is that it's spreading the problem. I know from experience that many of these editors, who are rather inexperienced with our policy and culture, will simply move to other articles (or create new ones, usually as forks)when they receive significant resistance. I'm not actually trying to blame shift here, and I'm not trying to justify the bad content or bad editor behavior; I'm simply attempting to point out that sometimes a carrot works as well as a stick. Keeping the stick around, in your back pocket, is fine. However, these are motivated people who find themselves looking at our editing interface... giving them some guidance on a good direction to take helps them, helps the encyclopedia, and over the long run likely leads to less work for you, to those of you who feel the need to police this. Regardless, fear not. In a month or two, after the hubub has died down, myself and others who are part of "the cleanup crew" will be able to get in and... well, clean up (if there's anything left to clean, which there usually isn't).
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 23:48, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

You have simply not dealt with the issue that the political and philosophical influences on Breivik are discussed in serious reporting in reliable sources. This discussion appears to be focused on the idea that relevant public debate should not be mentioned in a Misplaced Pages article when it reflects unfavourably on the article's subject. Opbeith (talk) 10:41, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Nobody out there in the real world has actually "dealt with the issue that the political and philosophical influences on Breveikk" in a meaningful way yet period. Right now we have news organizations simply reporting on the people mentioned in his manifesto and people with political axes to grind opining about it. You need to wait for some quality sources, and when that happens they need to be discussing the other individuals directly. In other words if someone is writing about Robert Spencer and thinks it is meaningful to discuss how he influenced Breveik then you have a source that says that this is a notable aspect of Robert Spencer's legacy as opposed to simply identifying the fact that some criminal quoted him several times in an online manifesto. Now, I happen to believe that just that type of thing will happen in a matter of time, but until it does (and after it does) please respect BLP. Thanks.Griswaldo (talk) 12:02, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

You don't seem to be paying too close attention to the real world. Here's Jostein Gaarder and Thomas Hylland Eriksen in the NYT again on the subject of the Counterjihad squad http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/29/opinion/Gaarder-Eriksen.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=Gaarder&st=cse. In Matthew Taylor's article at The Guardian he reports Paul Ray of Lionheart, who was involved with EDL before arguing with them: "said it appeared Breivik had drawn inspiration from some of his ideas and writings. "It's really pointing at us. All these things he's been talking about are linked to us," he said. "It's like he's created this whole thing around us." (adding that Ray said he condemned wholeheartedly what had happened and offered his deepest sympathies to Norway and the relatives of the dead, but that he did believe Islam was a threat to Europe)."http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/27/norway-paul-ray-lionheart-blog And here's Eugene Robinson at the Washington Post: Jewish Daily Forward quotes the Anti-Defamation League National Director Abraham Foxman as saying "Breivik was clearly influenced by an ideological movement both in the United States and Europe that is rousing public fear by consistently vilifying the Islamic faith," noting in his statement that the ADL has reported previously on Spencer and Geller’s anti-Muslim agitation. Doug Saunders's "‘Eurabia’ opponents scramble for distance from anti-Muslim murderer" in The Globe and Mail: "Frequently cited, quoted and praised in his manifesto are such figures as Bruce Bawer, author of the bestseller While Europe Slept; Geert Wilders, the Dutch anti-Muslim provocateur and leader of his country’s anti-immigration Freedom Party; Mark Steyn, the Canadian columnist and author of America Alone: The End of the World As we Know it; the British columnist Melanie Phillips, author of Londonistan; Gisele Littman, the author (under the pseudonym Bat Ye’or) of Eurabia: The Euro-Arab Axis; and the anti-immigration blogs Gates of Vienna, Atlas Shrugs and Jihad Watch. None of these authors have advocated violence. But their warnings of impending Islamic takeover – a concept that is widely dismissed as implausible in conventional scholarly and political circles – sometimes carry an urgency that might seem to invite angry responses. ... she (Littman / Bat Ye'or) warned that her ideas, and those of fellow authors and leaders on the anti-Muslim right, could continue to have violent repercussions if Mr. Breivik proves influential. “I’m afraid that this is something that other people will imitate.”" None of these reliable sources appear to be hesitating like Misplaced Pages. Opbeith (talk) 23:07, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

I might add to Opbeith's comments that these authors may claim that they "don't advocate violence against Muslims", but when you carefully scrutinize their rhetoric, you can easily find they do in fact justify specific acts of violence, whether it be the invasion of Gaza by the Israeli military, or the defense of the invasion of Lebanon by Israel, or the violent boarding of the Gaza Flotilla. Furthermore, their comment boards are filled with such rhetoric, despite the fact that they claim to moderate the comments. I might also add that these authors are routinely advocating other measures which while not exactly violent, are nonetheless extreme: not only opposing immigration by Muslims, but also the forcible deportation of Muslims, the denial of American Muslims US military service, supporting a Constitutional proviso to limit mosque-building, much less comments about how the only moderate Muslim is one who denounces the faith.

In response to Griswaldo, the Robert Spencer article currently says "In a manifesto which denounced multiculturalism and declared Islam to be a threat to the West, Anders Behring Breivik, the perpetrator of the July 22, 2011, massacre of 77 people in Norway, quoted Spencer 64 times." Nothing more is added. Does reporting this statement a form of a fact, with nothing added to it necessarily constitute an guilt by association in and of itself? How so? I'm not convinced. By that standard, we might also ask if the mention of Spencer's influence by the late Paul Weyrich also constitutes an Association fallacy? I encourage you (and anyone else) to respond to the regarding Spencer below, and elaborate on this rationale. Jemiljan (talk) 01:43, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

There is no "serious scholarly focus on Breivik" is debatable. There is no book or peer-reviewed journal articles, but this is because of the recent nature of the event, but Brievik's politics are not new, they have been addressed extensively in partisan and non-partisan sources, and their are recognized experts on these topics who are capable of making serious scholarly commentary on the issue. Decrying partisan sources for *just* being partisan is something that Jayjg has opposed in the past (see for example New antisemitism), so I am surprised he agrees with this opposition. Again, we are making the perfect the enemy of the good. We have to deal with the sources we have *right now* and stop crystal balling. When more reliable sources emerge, we can then fix it, but there is incredible interest on this topic and the web of related topics around it, and we must be fair to our readers. If all we have are short articles in reliable sources, then we go with that. Later when fixing up for GA, we can move forward differently. Is not that hard, really.

As to Jayjg's position on the different edits, I am have no opinion either away *except* that the issue she raises should be raised in discussion in each of those articles - and that there are no systemic BLP issues here. Guilt-by-association is a pervasive and very old political technique from any perspective, and the way to solve it is by conscientious editing, not noticeboarding. I already showed that Jayjg lumped together diffs that showed different kinds of edits - that is different problems or points of contention - yet he claimed incorrectly they were the same. One I think was a valid BLP noticeboard issue - the driveby see also in Geert Wilders, but the three others are clearly not a matter for noticeboard attention. Put bluntly, Jayjg is forum shopping. I hope he chooses to engage the editors of those articles directly and raise the issues there, rather than going behind their backs to a noticeboard.--Cerejota (talk) 01:16, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

I am inclined to agree, and these should be handled on a case-by-case basis. In the case of the Robert Spencer (author) article, I do think that the argument that Jayjg herself made above applies, as Spencer has been very public in addressing the matter. I am also supportive of mentioning both the criticisms and responses in a concise manner. I would appreciate your input on the Spencer discussion board.Jemiljan (talk) 02:03, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Actually, rather than "forum shopping", I've brought a systemic BLP issue to exactly one forum, the correct one (WP:BLPN), and most BLP regulars agree with me that it's a BLP issue. This is not "going behind the backs" of anyone, but exactly the correct procedure. Please do not post any more inaccurate ad hominem nonsense here, and instead focus on the issue, about which a consensus that disagrees with you appears to have developed. Jayjg 04:57, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

What consensus? Opbeith (talk) 12:10, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

The one that Qwyrxian, Off2riorob, Griswaldo, Ohms law, Cullen328, Dweller, Chzz and I agree with, and with which you apparently disagree. I don't count Cerejota's vote, because it was just irrelevant and inaccurate ad hominem nonsense, nor do I count Jemiljan's, because he's an extremely inexperienced editor who merely wants to tie Brevik to Robert Spencer (author). Jayjg 17:05, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Ah, the consensus of the people who agree with you. Opbeith (talk) 18:03, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

No, the consensus of uninvolved editors in this section. Did I miss someone? Jayjg 19:13, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Ahem, Jayjg , I believe that you are being a bit hasty judging my intentions. As to whether I am an "extremely inexperienced" editor, so what? I have yet to see you address my point. The fact is, I have edited the one page in question for several years now, and have worked with other editors to build consensus and revamp it after flagrant edit wars and even vandalism. While my activity may be limited in scope in comparison to yours, you have no right to assume that your opinion is superior on such an account.

To be clear, I only specifically was discussing the issue vis a vis one page alone: Robert Spencer (author). It is for this reason, that I think the point made by Cerejota that a case-by-case judgement rather than a sweeping one is in order.

Despite your assertion, my intention in this specific case is not simply to "tie Spencer to Breivik" alone, as I have made it very clear that I want to include Spencer's mention of Spencer's own very public responses, which Off2riorob alluded to above. Spencer in particular has now conducted interviews and comments in third-party WP:RS sources as is noted. Would you care to address this fact, rather than simply generalize and discount the dissenters to your self-proclaimed rather sweeping "consensus"? Specifically, would you kindly address whether or not if the person in question has in fact publicly addressed the issue, as Spencer has, then does it remain in the realm of an Association fallacy? I don't believe so, and for this reason, I would like to see this very specific facet of this issue addressed, before you proclaim some sort of fiat.Jemiljan (talk) 19:45, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Add me. Within a week there is no possible way that anything reliable can be sourced about this event other than the bare facts of the case itself. The jottings of the perpetrator reflect on the perpetrator alone. John lilburne (talk) 19:53, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

You've just dismissed the references I've provided as if they weren't even there. Surely it's invalid to build a consensus based on unwillingness to consider evidence material to the discussion. And this incident didn't happen out of nowhere. The fostering of anti-Islam sentiment by the counterjihadists has been a concern for a long time, partly for the very reason that it was believed likely to encourage action by someone like Breivik - hardly surprising that people have offered legitimate comments so quickly. Please, read the references and then, if you will, join the consensus. Opbeith (talk) 20:37, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

....and yet when one of the persons named responds publicly to the matter in a reliably sourced interview and discusses this issue? How is that not a bare fact? It seems to me that in those specific instances, it automatically extends beyond the mere "jottings of the perpetrator" reflecting upon himself alone.Jemiljan (talk) 20:24, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

And? Commenting that X says that Y is a load of balls is simply adding to a false controversy. Breivik apparently terms himself a Christian, and no matter how many prelates one get to deny that it is, one won't get to add Breivik to the Benedict XVI article. Others say he's some sort of liberal and no matter how many Democrats one gets to say that he isn't doesn't allow someone to add Breivik BLP articles of Democrats. John lilburne (talk) 00:01, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

John, Spencer has now not only responded via his blog, but is the subject of four separate interviews: on the BBC (starting at the 8-minute mark), on Michael Coren's show, and with Alan Colmes, and on the Frank Wuco show on Fox News. Were you to review them for yourself, I believe that you would find his comments go well beyond "x says y is a load of balls", and in consideration of this extensive coverage. Heck, I am even willing to add to any mention of this the Town Hall article that specifically defends Spencer.

Does mention of Spencer's repeated and lengthy responses on the matter simply add to a "false controversy"? How so? More to the point, how is this specific format in violation of WP:BLP? Does a careful, succinct, reporting of this specific scenario still constitute an Association fallacy in violation of WP:BLP? How so?Jemiljan (talk) 04:09, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Let me put this rather more forcefully, as individuals who claim there is a consensus are deleting edits without responding to talk page arguments. It's simply not good enough to dismiss reference to this public discussion out of hand as an attempt to establish "guilt by association" and ignore the evidence.

Discussion of the influences claimed by Breivik has been the subject of reporting by reliable sources. The role of the counterjihad movement in promoting anti-Islamic sentiment on the internet and in public debate generally has previously been noted and, not surprisingly now that a number of the more prominent members of the group have been claimed by Breivik as ideological influences, the media in Norway and the US are discussing the group's contribution to the climate of anti-Muslim opinion which allegedly motivated him.

I'm happy to concede to legitimate arguments. I have not reverted off2riobob's deletion of a direct quote from Srdja Trifkovic from 2083 because although it's clearly apposite I understand the argument that 2083 is currently considered a primary source and Trifkovic is notionally another person being quoted who is not the author (I do reject the reference to "soapboxing"). But discussion of the counterjihad influences and Trifkovic's own "herohood" is not the casual "guilt by association" it's glibly dismissed as. Trifkovic is identified by Dagbladet as one of Breivik's heroes and ideological "role models" - language issues discussed at the Talk page. His membership of the counterjihad movement is well documented and their role in fostering the climate of anti-Muslim hatred and influencing Breivik has been publicly discussed (and referenced by me above - apart I think from the Scott Shane article at NYT). Trifkovic does not have claim to special consideration as a presumptively innocent party in the area of inciting anti-Muslim feeling. earlier this year the Canadian Government refused him entry to Canada under the Crimes against Humanity and War Crimes Act because of his role as spokesperson for the 1992-1995 Bosnian Serb government, a position he held throughout the period in which they were systematically killing Bosnian Muslims, including at Srebrenica. (When he was refused admission Trifkovic's appeal to his associates to lobby the Canadian government for a reversal of their decision was circulated amongst counterjihadist group members.) Please deal with the argument that this is not a case of insinuated guilt, it's reporting of a serious issue relating to a subject which Misplaced Pages should not take it upon itself to censor. Until serious consideration has been given to that issue it's spurious to suggest that a consensus has been achieved. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Opbeith (talk • contribs)

Great, let's put this "more forcefully". Uninvolved editors, including Qwyrxian, Off2riorob, Griswaldo, Ohms law, Cullen328, Dweller, Chzz and John lilburne, indicate that adding this material is inappropriate and a BLP issue. Involved editors, including User:Cerejota (who has been extensively editing the Anders Behring Breivik article), User:Jemiljan (who mostly edits the Robert Spencer (author) article from a negative perspective), and User:Opbeith (you), who has extensively edited the Srđa Trifković article primarily from a negative perspective), disagree. So yeah, consensus pretty much has been achieved, and it's "spurious" to suggest otherwise. Jayjg 21:47, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Jayjg , please allow me to clarify: I am not advocating that mention of Brievik's quotations be inserted into each and every article concerning those he has quoted. For the most part, I am with you on this. Where I disagree is when and if the person in question has in fact responded publicly to the incident. If so, then is a brief, carefully worded passage mentioning this incident is in violation of WP:BLP? How so? Your comments about the extent to which I am "involved", or that you think my edits are "negative" are moot and don't address this valid point. Please address this specific point in a cogent fashion. Jemiljan (talk) 22:02, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Jemiljan, the BLP issues have been made quite clear, "in a cogent fashion", by many editors above, including me. Feel free to review those comments. Jayjg 04:22, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Jayjg, perhaps I am wrong, but where has you or anyone else specifically addressed my point about inclusion when and if the person in question has responded? I'm sorry, perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't see any attempt by you to address this specific point. Simply telling me that it is based on a "consensus" that doesn't clearly address this specific situation in any meaningful fashion strikes me as circular reasoning, not a cogent discussion. The only editors I see addressing this point are Off2riorob (whose position is more nuanced), and John lilburne. So allow me to reiterate my question again: if the person quoted has actively engaged in an ensuing public discussion on a matter in reliable, third-party sources (and not just in passing as John lilburne alluded to) repeatedly and at length, is a very concise mention of this, followed by references to said responses (plural) in violation of WP:BLP? How so?

Again do note that I am not advocating mentioning Brievik on each and every article of the people he's quoted by virtue of that fact alone, I am fully in agreement with all of the other editors on this matter. Yet what I am referring to clearly goes beyond this by virtue of the fact that Spencer in particular has now given four separate public interviews on the matter (see my reply to John lilburne above for specific references). in view of the fact that Spencer has not only addressed Breivik's quotations, but also criticized the media frenzy, one of the "uninvolved" editors you've cited as supporting this "consensus", namely Qwyrxian, has now agreed with me on the Talk:Robert_Spencer_(author) page. The same "uninvolved" editor has suggested, and I have agreed, that such a mention must be brief, no more than two sentences, and be very carefully worded, to maintain WP:NPOV. So once again, please explain how in consideration of the fact that the person quoted has responded repeatedly and at length, and if the proposed wording is very concise and to the point, how that would be an association fallacy in violation of WP:BLP.

Jayjg, my understanding of you saying that I have edited the Srda Trifkovic article "from a negative perspective" is that you deprecate my inclusion of information that reflects disfavourably on the subject. I came across the article as saying almost nothing negative about him. If you examine his CV, you might see that it's not unreasonable to include information about his work as a spokesman for and advisor to war criminals and a more recent career as a member of a group propounding extremist views about ethnic and religious minorities. The absence of negative information is not neutrality. You also seem to suggest that "involvement" as you describe it and "knowledge of a subject" as I describe it suffices to disqualify an opinion. But that's by the by. The important thing is that you suggest that my "editing from a negative perspective" means that the evidence I have offered is ipso facto irrelevant. That's what I would like you to justify, a little bit less flippantly. Opbeith (talk) 22:35, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

I understand that you believe you were editing the Srđa Trifković article from a negative perspective for a good reason - that has no impact on my point regarding the views of uninvolved editors vs. involved editors. Jayjg 04:22, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Exactly, Jayjg, editors with knowledge of the topic, who conceivably have read much more sources and hence have a concrete sense of what the WP:V and WP:RS issues are, take a nuanced view on the topics. What is so surprising about this? This is nothing new in wikipedia. Real discussions happen in article talk, not noticeboards unless there are clear cut BLP vios, which there aren't any (unless you count the see also driveby which has been reverted.

Also, Jayjg, this is not a vote - its is a discussion, and you claiming it is a vote is hilarious funny. If anything I said is seen as an ad hominem I sincerely apologize, and would gladly strikethrough anything you feel offend by, but I did a careful review of my words and I can't see were I didn't focus on content positions. I haven't called you names or called your views invalid - simply unconvincing or contradictory. This is normal human discourse to express disagreement, not ad hominem - I am puzzled by your equating disagreement with a personal attack as it makes no sense, one can disagree without attacking the person at all. However you have indeed attacked me and other editors rather than our positions on content. I would have hoped that the community's harsh reaction to your previous bad behavior in this and other respects would have allowed you to reflect on the negative aspects of your contributions, rather than use your many positive contributions as a stick with which to beat newbies (such as you do above) and divert discussions from what they should be focused upon, which is content. --Cerejota (talk) 00:14, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Cerejota, most of your comment was again ad hominem nonsense, which doesn't really fool anyone. Stop talking about me, and start talking about the issue at hand. Comment on content, not on the contributor. Jayjg 04:22, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

I'll just add my voice to the long list of uninvolved editors here who see that it's a clear BLP violation to devote space in a bio to say that ABB wrote something positive about the subject. Yes, it's sourced that ABB said this, but it's not in any way apparent that the info is notable when understanding the person (e.g. Bruce Bawer), and it certainly serves to defame. We can't do this.

I'd also like to point out that some of you are making this way too much of a personal issue. (Cerejota, for instance, has mentioned Jayjg more than ABB in discussion above.) The issue at hand is, should "ABB liked this guy" be in a BLP?, and it's clear to everyone uninvolved that it shouldn't. If you instead want to criticize individual editors, then I guess if that's your thing, you're going to do it... but it doesn't advance the issue at all. – Quadell 16:36, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Actually, the issue is also whether when the person quoted publicly responds, not merely in passing, but conducts a number of interviews on the matter.

I mentioned Jayjg because he is the one raising the points - I would like to know when did saying "So-and-So is wrong." is a personal attack? To focus on the content, I find it significant that only those who disagree with the position that there is a blacket issue here are providing arguments based on the actual content. For example, I clearly examined the diffs provided "By the One We Shall Not Mention Unless There Are Declarations of Ad Hominem Attacks", and argued that while some were clearly bad edits under BLP, others were not - and further more that these are issues that should be addressed not by "uninvolved" editors, but by editors involve din the editing itself. Pointing out an attempt at forum shopping is entirely legitimate and related to the quality of the content. --Cerejota (talk) 02:39, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Cerejota, I'm really trying to take your opinions seriously here. But you're not talking about adding ABB material into articles anymore; you're talking about an editor you don't like, and your "One We Shall Not Mention" name is frankly childish. You continue to call this BLP issue "forum-shopping", even though this is the only forum I see being used, and that has been pointed out to you already. I can't tell what you're trying to gain here, besides complain about Jayjg... and I don't see how that has anything to do with inserting defamatory material into BLPs. – Quadell 13:51, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

My two cents - I think I like Jemiljan's logic. Spencer is primarily notable for Islamic criticism, hatred, opposition (whatever you want to call it); thus it seems reasonable that ABB, who is notable for the/a same/similar thing, citing Spenser is relevant to his notability. I appreciate the "guilt by association argument" and I think it would apply if Spencer's and ABB's notability were entirely different (e.g. Davidelah's example here of Al-Qaeda associating with Noam Chomsky).

Furthermore, I don't see consensus for exclusion established here. I think the onus is really on the "excluders" to demonstrate that what the New York Times thought was notable is in fact not notable. NickCT (talk) 14:04, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Nick, here's a better comparison. Ted Kaczynski the Unabomber. His manifesto references the ideas of Eric Hoffer and Jacques Ellul directly but you'll find no reference to Kaczynski in their entries. Why is that? Consider this from another angle entirely. Ellul and Hoffer are notable for their ideas, but Kaczynski is not notable for his ideas, but for his murderous acts. Likewise people like Robert Spencer are notable for their ideas (however despicable those ideas are), while Breveik is not. He's notable for his murderous acts. Doing what you and others are proposing is to artificially suggest a causal connection between specific ideas espoused by others and the murderous acts of these individuals. That's the problem here. I don't see us doing this in other examples like the Unabomber, and I don't think we should start doing it now.Griswaldo (talk) 15:13, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Griswaldo - I'm not sure that's a fair comparison. I can say that ABB's notability (i.e. a terrorist against Islam) and Spencer's notability (i.e. a writer/activist against Islam) are fundamentally similar. Ted Kaczynski was a notable terrorist trying to bring down the industrial-technological system. Were either Eric Hoffer or Jacques Ellul notable for arguing for the take down of the industrial-technological system? I know Hoffer wasn't. NickCT (talk) 16:20, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Breveik is not notable for being "against Islam." He's notable for shooting a bunch of native Norwegians, mostly children and for bombing a building that killed a handful more of the same. He claims to be doing this because of X, Y and Z, and references several sources in establishing the supposed reality X, Y and Z. That is not far from the Unabomber who was notable for killing three people. He claimed to be doing that because of X, Y and Z and referenced several sources in establishing the supposed reality of X, Y and Z. Robert Spencer may be against Islam but he has never advocated doing what Breveik did, and again it is the doing that Breveik is notable for.Griswaldo (talk) 16:42, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

re Breveik is not notable for being "against Islam." - Really? Google testing Breivik with either Islam or shooting seems to bring up a similar number of hits. It would seem to me that Breveik's stance on Islam is noted almost as often as his act of terror. Honestly, I think this is probably true for most people you might call "terrorists". They become as deeply associated with their cause as with their actual action. NickCT (talk) 18:03, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Nick, honestly that was a mistake in my choice of words. What I meant was that he is not notable "because of" being against Islam. Yes his xenophobia and islamophobia are now a big part of the personality that news sources are reporting on. Of course he claims to have committed his crimes because of his hatred and clearly that is important. But I never meant to claim otherwise. The unabomber's views of technology and advanced industrial society are also part of his notability at this point.Griswaldo (talk) 23:39, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Opbeith has provided some interesting sources above: Jostein Gaarder in the New York Times , a Guardian article about an English right-wing nutcase , and a Washington Post opinion piece on Breivik's manifesto. While I agree with Jostein Gaarder and generally think just as poorly of anti-Islam crusaders as I think of pro-Islam holy warriors (and am thus perhaps not neutral here), I do not think this is sufficient to meet the standard of WP:DUE and WP:BLP for inclusion in BLP articles. These sources are about Breivik, his crime and his motivations. They are not about the respective people, and I agree with Griswaldo that there is no evidence yet that Breivik is in any way relevant to these various people. Hans Adler 15:13, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes I don't mean to plug this again, but I honestly believe that for some of the people mentioned in the manifesto this incident may become a relevant part of their narratives and reflected as such in scholarship and other quality sources. I just don't see anything remotely like that right now.Griswaldo (talk) 15:20, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

So what you guys are saying is that articles about ABB that mention Spencer, don't mean that ABB is notable to Spencer. What you want is an article about Spencer that mentions ABB? This seems like a sorta artificial goal post. The fact is, we have an RS that has noted the association; hence, the association is verifiable & notable. In terms of WP:DUE, Spencer isn't really a hugely notable character to begin with; hence, mentioning minor associations like these wouldn't seem to violate WP:DUE. NickCT (talk) 16:28, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

That's not an artificial goal post at all. If John Doe celebrity is obsessed with pokemons it might be entirely notable to mention that in his entry but not in the pokemon entry. Consider what we would have to do on articles about intellectuals or academics if we mentioned all the people who claim them as an influence in their articles. Do you want to start rewriting Karl Marx, Plato, and Charles Darwin to reflect all the notable individuals who claim them as an influence? A reference source is not a place to make novel claims, or to make novel imputations of what is or is not meaningful. If sources that are actually about the subject at hand do not mention a connection to someone or something else neither do we.Griswaldo (talk) 16:34, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

What if John Doe celebrity was of sufficient notability to make mention on the Pokemon entry WP:DUE? Imagine if Barrack Obama loved pokemon. Would that not be worth mentioning on the Pokemon article? NickCT (talk) 16:45, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

No, that would not be worth mentioning in the Pokemon article unless it fits into the narrative somewhere (as opposed to: someone creates a coat rack for including that factoid). In fact, this is the kind of trivia that regularly gets removed from articles, especially when someone tries to get them through the GA or FA process. Most people understand this once it has been explained, and we need the flexibility to occasionally mention relatively irrelevant facts to give an article depth. This is why we don't have more explicit rules against such trivia. Writing an encyclopedia requires common sense. Hans Adler 18:16, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Oh damn, my take on this was what if ABB watched the Simpsons, citing them as a major influence, and ate a lot of Oreo cookies too? Heck, the Pokémon aren't even European (cue another major "repel the invaders" frenzy). CaptainScreebo 19:27, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

-

Griswaldo, and Hans I understand your rationale and I agree that insertion of mention of Brievik is generally an association fallacy. Yet what I think that most here fail to appreciate it that in Spencer's specific case, he has four public interviews that he has conducted where he has commented not only on the quotations, but on the media frenzy, in RS third-party sources. In view of the fact that Spencer has not only addressed Breivik's quotations, but also criticized the media frenzy, one of the "uninvolved" editors above, Qwyrxian, has now agreed with me on the Talk:Robert_Spencer_(author) page. They have suggested, and I have agreed, that such a mention must be brief, no more than two sentences, and be very carefully worded, to maintain WP:NPOV.

So once again, please explain how in consideration of the fact that the person quoted has responded repeatedly and at length, and if the proposed wording is very concise and to the point, how that would still constitute an association fallacy in violation of WP:BLP.What I am proposing is not simply mention of Breivik, but also a concisely worded response. Please address my point about this, and see my reply above to John lilburne with specific references to those interviews. I just think that this entire discussion is focused on Breivik's quotation alone and fails to adequately address the specific scenario when the person in question has responded, in multiple forms and at considerable lengthJemiljan (talk) 18:25, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

OK lets get to the bottom of this. Why do you think that adding anything concerning Breivik would be be an encyclopaedic addition to the Spencer biography? What is the imperative for the addition? What would the insertion add to our knowledge about Spencer and whatever it is he does? John lilburne (talk) 21:50, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I gave a rationale in my reply to you further above, John. Please review it and then demonstrate how what is proposed would constitute a violation of WP:BLP.Jemiljan (talk) 22:47, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

You have NOT given any rationale that I can see. What you have said is that he has given a number of interviews where he said that commentary about him in relation to an insane gunman and bomber is bollocks. Currently what seems to be proposed is: On 22/07/2011, in Norway, 77 people (mostly kids) were killed by a madman, 3000 miles away in the US some blame the killings on their political opponents - "if only they had been nicer the madman wouldn't have killed". One of those blamed says he never wrote anything that would justify anyone to go kill a bunch of kids. What does that give us with regards to the blamed one's biography, how does it advance our understanding of him or whatever it is he does? John lilburne (talk) 00:32, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

I also clearly mentioned Spencer commented not only on Breivik, but his comments on the handling of the story in the media. This is not simply " commentary about him in relation to an insane gunman". It is also clearly an opportunity to mention Spencer's defense of himself, if it isn't obvious enough. Furthermore, the exaggerated hypothetical wording you employ is nothing remotely close to what has been discussed so far in tone and tenor here, among several editors, which is clearly far more limited and NPOV than what you outlined.

Again, please review the point made by "uninvolved" editor Qwyrxian, who has supported the consensus here, but finds my point a compelling enough exception to comment and agree on it. Specifically, you should address whether the specific proposed wording constitutes an association fallacy in violation of WP:BLP policies, when formatted as suggested (as that is clearly the underpinning of the consensus here), rather than elaborate an imagined hypothetical that lacks WP:AGF.Jemiljan (talk) 02:42, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

You are not address the concern. BLPs do not generally document every interview that the subject makes. We don't add an entry every time some author is interviewed when their book being made into a film, we document the book and we document film. We don't document every post match interview a sports person makes, we document the match (perhaps). What makes these Spencer interviews so important that you want to abandoned usual practice? John lilburne (talk) 06:02, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

John, you cannot compare the Norway shooting to a sports match. The event has global reach and Spencer is mentioned in this association in many reliable news articles. People read his article here on Misplaced Pages to find out his opinion and his defense. The event affects his life, and preventing the information from being added to his article could be considered just as harmful as the opposite. The silence of Misplaced Pages reminds me of the silence of the communist media over some events back in the 1980s. The whole civilized world was informed, only communists pretended that nothing happens. Perhaps it's a bit far-fetched, but it's my opinion. --Vejvančický (talk | contribs) 14:41, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

(outdent} People read his article here on Misplaced Pages to find out his opinion and his defense. opinion and defence about what exactly? And what would motivate people to come here in 5 years time to read about it anyway? This is why we think there are BLP concerns. There is no guarantee that, left alonne, anyone other than detractors are going to recall this brouhaha in 5 years time, thus entries like this will likely be the only extant record, which as of today is for all we can tell is simply polemic. Tell us how this differs from the similar Brouhaha last year that was associating Palin with the mass killer in Tucson? John lilburne (talk) 15:23, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

I can't tell you what would motivate people to come here in 5 years time to read about it, I'm not Nostradamus. I know very little about Palin and the mass killer in Tucson, so I can't compare. Let's get back to Spencer's article. The information is relevant today and it is quite possible that it will be even more relevant in 5 years time. Yet we pretend that nothing happens and sweep Spencer's reaction to Anders_Behring_Breivik#Responses_from_those_mentioned, despite the fact that there's a possibility to compile a brief and neutral mention also in the Spencer's article. I agree, it is quite a harmless solution and I can accept that. I'm not a detractor, I don't want to insert defamatory claims to the articles, I'm just asking. --Vejvančický (talk | contribs) 17:04, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Well you should be able to! This is meant to be an encyclopaedia, not the office water cooler, and as such the information presented here should have lasting value, we should be able to foresee the beyond the immediate news agenda. We can quite easily see why Breivik will be important in 5 years time, it is not clear at all as to why his mention of Spencer, or the interviews that Spencer makes today will be in any way relevant to the Spencer biography. In most likelihood they won't be, but if it becomes obvious that they relevant we can add them in then. There is no deadline. John lilburne (talk) 23:34, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, Vejvančický, and you are absolutely correct to dispute John's false analogy comparing this incident with a sporting match. I'm willing to bet some good money on the belief that even Robert Spencer would agree that finding out a a violent criminal, who has just killed a bunch of kids, has cited and quoted his work multiple times in a manifesto, is pretty extraordinary occurrence in his life. He has written as much, after all. What I am suggesting is in fact very much analogous to Palin's responding to the shooting of Gabrielle Giffords, which very much is included on Palin's WP bio. Jodie Foster's bio contains a similar brief passage about John F. Hinckley Jr's shooting of President Reagan.

Were the passage written in such a way so as to implicate Palin directly in the Giffords shooting, that would definitely be unacceptable, but it clearly doesn't. It describes the incident in brief, and documents Palin's several responses, and includes a brief quote of her denouncing the attack. So it seems that John's reference to Palin, and his appeal to consequences about "abandoning usual practice" conveniently overlooks that very similarly- worded passage in addition to other WP:BLP entries. A cursory search of the archives reveals that there was a similarly contentious debate over mention of the Gifford's shooting in Palin's entry on both the discussion page and the WP:BLP noticeboard, and a consensus was clearly obtained regarding the current wording. I think this provides an acceptable model, and would ask dissenters to specifically describe how the wording that is under discussion violates WP:BLP standards, when similar passages are found in other WP:BLP articles. John, until now, you've not specifically addressed this. Your questioning of my intentions and dismissive stance regarding the "value" the passage clearly doesn't even begin to address the proposed wording. So please, answer this question, and if it's in the affirmative, then be prepared to support your argument.Jemiljan (talk) 23:55, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

The Palin article is 1000s of words long and yes I missed that there was still some stuff relating to the Gifford shooting in there the Spencer article is much shorter. Still there is far less than once there was, where it did attempt to directly implicate. And yes this is only NOT equivalent to interviews with sports players, precisely because a load of kids were murdered. What the passage in Palin and the proposal here do is to implicate the events with the person. By making an association between the the murder of the kids and Spencer via Breivik's writings, however you write the passage you make that connection. John lilburne (talk) 12:25, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

How does the present passage in the Palin article, which is brief, clear, and carefully worded NPOV statement "implicate" her? The wording was clearly debated extensively, and was achieved by consensus over time. My proposal here is clearly not to "implicate the person", quite the contrary, and the proposed wording reflects that style. In order to form a valid critique, you must address the proposed wording.Jemiljan (talk) 18:10, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

It associates her campaign of some months earlier with the actions of a mad gunman. There is no connection between the two events, except via polemical point scoring. All of which is amusing and serves her right, but which has no business being on a page that purports to be NPOV. Really is there anyone out there with two working brain cells that actually thinks there was a real connection? In the context of American politics one would never be able to remove it, but it does not mean that it is in any way balanced. A truly NPOV would conclude that it didn't belong. John lilburne (talk) 17:35, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

It does? How so? It also clearly and unambiguously includes a very sternly-worded defense. Admittedly, I don't like the poll results tacked onto the end of that passage, but if you take that away, I'm having a hard time seeing any "implication" you insist is there. If you're going to persuade me, you have to address the exact wording and analyze the tone. A blanket statement about a particular passage being POV isn't a cogent analysis.

In the wake of the January 8, 2011 shooting of Rep. Giffords, Palin faced criticism for her SarahPAC website's inclusion of a graphic that included a crosshair over Giffords's district. Palin responded to the criticism of the graphic, saying that "Acts of monstrous criminality stand on their own. They begin and end with the criminals who commit them," controversially equating the accusations of her role in the shooting to a "blood libel".

Ok, so where is the "connection" made in this specific wording? Does a casual reader really come away with the impression that "Palin made him do it"? Hardly! The first part mentions the shooting in passing, and describes the criticism that Palin faced for something her campaign undeniably did. The second sentence mentions only criticism of the graphic, nothing more. The tone of the passage is very unambiguous.

WP:BLP biographies should in general take into consideration when a person responds to a controversial incident- especially when they are implicated by others, even when there is no connection whatsoever- and specifically does so in a high-profile fashion and more than just in passing. That is precisely what Palin did, and also Spencer. they have been uninvolved, but the moment that they start responding to it publicly, then they have involved themselves. The wording of such passages should avoid any and all implications, but simply record the event and the response, preferably a brief quote, supplied by a third-party reliable source.Jemiljan (talk) 01:46, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Some of the more egregious insertions of Breivik are now out, but this is a splendid example of how some people ignore WP:BLP to insert irrelevant contentious claims into biographies. Collect (talk) 23:08, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

What does this have to do with Sarah Palin and Jodie Foster? Arguing in favor of this by using other BLPs is an invalid argument. Truthsort (talk) 05:55, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Truthsort, I was clearly making a perfectly valid analogy regarding the specific style of those others entries, which are brief, to the point, and in no way attempts to directly implicate the person referred to. In Palin's case, the entry contains a response as I have proposed, and has been debated extensively debated and achieved through consensus. Hence my analogy is valid, and constitutes a valid argument. It's also pretty obvious that made no attempt to draw a connection with Palin and Foster! Rather than reflexively deny the validity of my argument, you need to show how such careful wording is in clear violation of WP:BLP policies.Jemiljan (talk) 18:10, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Break

Seems Fjordman and Melanie Philips are now exempt from WP:BLP? Tbe desire to connect this man with everyone mentioned in his rantings is getting absurd. Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:42, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure how others feel about this, but I think that Fjordman is, and should be, excluded from WP:BLP for a very obvious reason. We do not know who Fjordman is, or that Fjordman is even a person. Melanie Philips is, of course, clearly a living person.Griswaldo (talk) 14:54, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Update: I have removed the section from the Phillips entry again and suggested to the editor wishing to retain it that he best take up the issue on the talk page instead.Griswaldo (talk) 14:59, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree Griswaldo on this. BLP exists to keep the wiki from being used to attack living people in ways that are egregiously libelous to them, and as a consequence, the project. A pseudonym can, for all we care be a collective pseudonym and hence shouldn't enjoy the same protections as a named individual. It should be treated basically as book would. However, BLP protections are not just for the article about the person, but mentions of the person elsewhere, and articles on pseudonyms are ripe for the inclussion of speculation about identities etc. Those items are indeed BLP protected. --Cerejota (talk) 11:35, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Jane Fonda

• Jane Fonda (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I would like to get some feedback on the following addition: . It is being argued that since the original source of the quote cannot be found it cannot be included in the article, despite the numerous references to it on many WP:RS's and a lack of any sources that challenge it. ZHurlihee (talk) 15:54, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages actually prefers secondary and WP:Independent sources for things like this; they show that the quotation is worth mentioning. The absence of (for example) a publicly available recording of the original speech is therefore irrelevant.

If the fact that she said this had been seriously disputed in reliable sources, then that would need to be mentioned, or considered as a reason to remove it under WP:UNDUE. However, the mere fact that the WP:PRIMARY source isn't easily available is irrelevant. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:10, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

This has all the hallmarks of a phony quotation. There are no identifiable contemporaneous news reports found that verify the quote, or even that Fonda gave a speech at the supposed site (Michigan State University). In fact, these "reliable" sources give at least two different dates (1969 and 1970, typically on November 22, the anniversary of the JFK assassination, which seems a bit convenient), and at least two different locations (Duke and MSU). It looks like the first press reports of it turn up in 1972, after Fonda's notorious sojourn to North Vietnam. Fonda said and did a lot of stupid things, and they were generally reported by the press as they happened. The reliably-documented ones are all we need to write a comprehensive article. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 18:02, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

It looks like a well-referenced fact, to me; it's widely reported in numerous reliable sources - to revert it as "unsourced or poorly sourced" when it has a book ref and NY Times isn't good. It might not be true, but it's not our job to judge that; the text actually stated According to several sources (indicating the potential doubt). If there's some RS actually claiming it might not be true, then fair enough, we could explain that - possibly a footnote?

As to whether it is appropriate per WP:UNDUE...that's another matter entirely, and could be discussed on the talk page. But from what I've seen, I don't know why you think it isn't reliably documented. We don't need to work out who originally reported it.

But I do suggest more discussion, input from others, before reinstating it of course.  Chzz  ► 

The supposed "New York Times" ref appears to be an online reader's comment. As for being "well-referenced," when an inflammatory quotation like this is reported without contemporaneous evidence, but with multiple inconsistent dates and locations attached, that's not exactly a signal of reliable reporting. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 16:52, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

The Bloch/Umansky book published by NYU Press confirms the quote on page 246. This book is a fine source to use for a BLP; the only source needed for including the quote. Binksternet (talk) 18:20, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

That's silly. If it were the only report, perhaps. But the existence of multiple, contradictory reports undermines the reliability of the entire set. There's a notorious fake Lincoln quote that was often cited in "reliable" sources, including many books, until Ronald Reagan used it in a speech, leading to such widespread public debunking that it's now only rarely trotted out. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 20:35, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Coming late here, but I agree with Hellaballoo, this is just too poorly sourced and given that I don't think the Block/Umansky book should be seen as reliable for this. If it came from Lee Winfrey where is the original? Dougweller (talk) 15:03, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Just read the talk page (should have read that first) and it seems even more dubious, I note for instance Binksternet has changed his mind. Dougweller (talk) 15:06, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Geir Lippestad - Anders Breveik's lawyer

Geir Lippestad (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

This seems like an obvious WP:BLP1E to me. Breveik's lawyer is not all of a sudden independently notable. Thoughts.Griswaldo (talk) 01:36, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

That was my first thought when I saw that article early today. However, I looked at the Google News timeline and saw many references to him in 2001-2003, 2008-2009, and now in 2011 and figured I'd let this one pass. However, I just looked at the timeline again. He's not a BLP1E due to the prior mentions but I don't see any detailed coverage of the subject that would allow him to pass WP:N. --Marc Kupper|talk 05:46, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

All part of the frenzy around Breveik - seems harmless enough and cited - I think its less disruptive to let it ride for a while and see if it develops, if not nominate it when the edit frenzy has died down. Off2riorob (talk) 18:51, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

He is not BLP1E prima facie, as he is known for being the lawyer of the perp in the Murder of Benjamin Hermansen before the Norway massacre, so BLP1E doesn't apply at all, period. Notability itself is more iffy to establish, however, I am inclined to notable because he is a figure in two notable events with wide media mention (at least in Norway) and we shouldn't bias notability to notability in English speaking countries. If an AfD happens I predict a snowstorm :) --Cerejota (talk) 01:22, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

I've done the {{notable}} and WP:PROD hatting, both of which the article's creator immediately removed. I'm still mulling over if I'll do an AFD and its wording. Cerejota noted, it'll be a snowstorm. :) All of the language versions of the Misplaced Pages article are new (created on or after 23 July 2011) with none of them indicating notability. I've been watching no:Geir Lippestad on the assumption the Norwegian editors would be most able to locate a source. For example, he is reported as being a "politician" on the English WP but so far there's no mention that he's ever held office meaning a better description in English may be "politically active."

I agree that his connection to two notable events is a factor plus the Breveik incident has triggered some direct coverage that may well satisfy notability. --Marc Kupper|talk 03:09, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

He is basically a celebrity lawyer in Norway. If thats notable or not what we are discussing, but if American celebrity lawyers known only for one case, such as Jose Baez (lawyer) are held to be notable, a Norwegian celebrity lawyer known for two cases then meets the threshold. Perhaps the difference is that Norway tends to have a different celebrity culture that is more respectful than the US's and this creates a lack of RS, but as I mentioned systemic bias is not a reason to deny notability. Again, I am inclined to notability been sustained for a separate article, but the sources *on* the guy are few so I am not clear what the BLP/BIO issues here are.--Cerejota (talk) 00:48, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Robert Spencer (author)

There has been a contentious debate and some edit warring over mention of mention of Anders Behring Breivik in the article about Robert Spencer. At first, a separate section devoted to the Norway attacks was started. Then it was removed altogether and then restored, several times over. Now it has been moved to a "controversies" section which lists several controversial events involving Spencer.

Detractors claim that inclusion of the fact that Breivik quoted Spencer over 60 times in his manifesto amounts to Guilt by Association in violation of WP:BLP. Proponents for inclusion have variously argued that it should be included to demonstrate Spencer's negative influence, to simply reporting the fact alone doesn't constitute Guilt by Association.

It would be nice to see more input and consensus built on this matter. I assume that similar issues have also occurred with regard to Pamela Geller and Breivik's own article.01:28, 30 July 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jemiljan (talk • contribs)

As per references cited under Breivik (3) above, the influence of the internet vehicles of Spencer, Geller, Fjordman and other "counterjihadis" has been commented on in various reports published in reliable sources. There's also a fair amount of direct references to the aims, aspirations and interactions of members of the movement (eg explicit reasons for mutual antagonism over the EDL "anti-semitism" dispute) on the websites and blogs.

Breivik's "2083 - A European Declaration of Independence" calling for a crusade against Islam in Europe is a copy and paste of hundreds of pages taken from right-wing/counterjihadi bloggers and websites, in particular Fjordman's posts at Gates of Vienna (Fjordman) in which he references Jihad Watch (Spencer), The Brussels Journal, FrontPage Magazine, Chronicles, Little Green Footballs, Atlas Shrugs and others.

Frank Patalong in Spiegel Online describes this as an extremely well networked, rapidly growing far-right "scene" that aims to establish a respectable presence as an "anti-Jihad" counterbalance. While they certainly disclaim responsibility for his actions it's hard to see how the influence of their views on Breivik's, noted by observers including Patalong, Shane, Gaarder and Hyllund Eriksen and acknowledged by Breivik himself, can be disregarded when they relate to an action carried out on the basis of those views.

The alternative "dissociative" hypothesis (the claim that mention represents "guilt by association") surely needs to be substantiated too, in a way that explains convincingly why Breivik's views should be assumed not to have been influenced by his immersion in this subculture. Opbeith (talk) 18:18, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree that reports from reliable sources should be included, and also some of Spencer's responses. At the same time, there has been a considerable problem on Spencer's page with supporters inserting "responses" by him to each and every point of criticism. I agree that we'll have to see how this plays out, but I am comfortable with the current, limited wording. Jemiljan (talk) 22:42, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

I think it's a bit sparse but sometimes you have to go with what's reasonably feasible. At least the desperate efforts being made to stop any connection being made between Spencer's views and Breivik aren't as determined as those aimed at letting Fjordman off the hook, even to the extent of deleting the Fjordman article. Opbeith (talk) 23:24, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

This is discussed above in the "Anders Behring Breivik (3)" section. – Quadell 18:29, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, Quadell, it is discussed, but it seems that my point about Spencer's detailed replies- not only to Breivik's quotation, but also the media response in general- in several RS 3rd party sources is lost in the shuffle. The vast bulk of the conversation is focused on Breivik, and little discussion is made of Spencer's several lengthy responses. Would you care to address this? See my reply to John lilburne in the above thread for references to the interviews in question.Jemiljan (talk) 18:50, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

A passage that is quite similar to what I've proposed in both brevity and neutral tone is found in the entry on Sarah Palin, in which mention is made of the Gabrielle Giffords . The entry on Jodie Foster contains a similar passage referring to . A cursory search of the archives reveals that there was a similarly contentious debate over mention of the Gifford's shooting in Palin's entry on both the discussion page and the WP:BLP noticeboard, and a consensus was clearly obtained regarding the current wording. I think this provides an acceptable model, and would ask dissenters to specifically describe how the wording that is under discussion violates WP:BLP standards, when similar passages are found in other WP:BLP articles.Jemiljan (talk) 18:15, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Einstein family

Einstein family (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Should the living great-grandchildren of a notable person (Albert Einstein) be named in an article about his family? I am talking about the privacy of names section of WP:BLP. How close does a relationship need to be for the person to be named, spouse and children obviously, but grandchildren, great-grandchildren? Quasihuman | Talk 18:37, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

I see no possible encyclopedic value in such listings. --Orange Mike | Talk 23:18, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Orange Mike. No point in adding grandchildren and beyond, unless they have an article in their own right. I see no problem with adding information on how many children and grandchildren the person has. Robert Brockway (talk) 12:32, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, I have removed the names. Quasihuman | Talk 14:56, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Zara Phillips

Zara Phillips (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

As she is not changing her name upon marriage can someone revert this http://en.wikipedia.org/Zara_Tindall and possibly move protect it at least for now given the marriage has just happened so drive by page moves are likely. thanks RafikiSykes (talk) 22:06, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

I moved it back to Phillips and requested temporary move protection. Off2riorob (talk) 22:44, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Adam Levine

Adam Levine (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

The article insists on including that Adam Levine is part Jewish, even though it is completely unnecessary. It also falsely cites two sources which have nothing to do with Levine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.94.205.233 (talk) 13:27, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Here we go again... Yup, it looks like a classic case of ethno-tagging, right down to comments about his maternal grandmother. As for the sources, can you say which ones are problematic? AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:05, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Here we go again, fanatical scrubbing of all mention of Jewish ancestry... this was the source:. Fences&Windows 22:17, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

That citation asserts that the subject fits in the cat - People with three non Jewish grandparents - Off2riorob (talk)

"Levine's father and grandfather on his mother's side were both Jewish". Edenc1 • Talk 16:40, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Levins father was half Jewish one of his four grandparents was a full Jew, the other three were not Jewish at all. The majority are clearly more notable than the minority - or at least deserve a mention. Is it correct to focus on the minority - The subjject himself refused a Bar Mitzvah and self describes as an atheist. This Levin is a quarter Jew, and fits in the cat - People whose genetics are seventy five percent not Jewish - Off2riorob (talk) 19:34, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

And this Levine is in the Category:American people of Jewish descent which is correct, that's what the source says, he is descended from one Jewish ancestor. Is that not sufficient, already? CaptainScreebo 22:44, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Ancestry/descent categories are not mutually exclusive. Stop being so fanatical with the Jew-scrubbing, it's really tiresome. Fences&Windows 01:16, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Another unintelligible response, this makes no senses F&W. Fanatical, eh? And what does one scrub a Jew with I wonder? CaptainScreebo 11:00, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

• Agree w/Cullen. Looking through this long string, including the below, I find Cullen's comments above to be the most convincing. We follow the RSs. That's a good way to avoid POV.--~~

• - note - from my talkpage but related to thus discussion.- == Adam Levine ==

Hello Off2riorob,

The reference discussed at WP:BLPN states that his father is Jewish, as well as his grandfather on his mother's side. The implication of stating his father is Jewish is that his paternal grandparents are also Jewish. So that's 50% of his grandparents, plus the 25% that is his maternal grandfather. So, if we are into tracking percentages of Jewish ancestry, that comes to 75% not the 25% you repeatedly stated. I think it is fair to say he's of Jewish ancestry, though clearly, according to the source, not religiously observant. Please also be sensitive about exegesis of Jewish ancestry that calls to mind antebellum Southern categories like quadroon and octaroon. Such analyses make a mockery of my sons, born to a Jewish mother and a non-Jewish father (me) who converted to Judaism after their birth. My boys would object to being called "half Jewish". They live in a 99% non-Jewish mileu, but are proud young Jews. It is all complex and very, very sensitive. Cullen Let's discuss it 04:38, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Its not sensitive - you are a convert to Judaism and not ethnically Jewish at all. Your sons sound like religiously practicing ethnic half Jews. As regards Levine, one of his grandparents is Jewish - the Jewish post is calling his father Jewish - but the fact is that one of his parents is not Jewish at all and only one out of four of his grandparents is Jewish - he is more not Jewish than he is Jewish. Off2riorob (talk) 05:55, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

"It is all very complex and very, very sensitive". True enough. But is it sensitive enough to (a) ask the opinion of the subject of the BLP whether he/she wishes to be labelled unambiguously 'Jewish', and (b) establish that this 'sensitive' issue is one that should be used as ammunition in the endless ethnotagging warfare that goes on in Misplaced Pages? Frankly, I suspect that 'sensitivity' is the least of the concerns of several of those involved in this debate. Still, who cares about people, when we can argue about abstractions... AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:09, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

You are misreading the source, Off2riorob. The source says that his father is Jewish. Therefore, it is highly likely that his paternal grandparents are both Jewish. His maternal grandfather is Jewish according to the source, therefore it is highly likely that three of his four grandparents are Jewish. How do you reach the conclusion that only one of his grandparents are Jewish and that he is "more not Jewish" than Jewish, in terms of ancestry or ethnicity? Are you assuming that his paternal grandparents are not Jewish? What is the reasonable basis for such an assumption? Cullen Let's discuss it 06:12, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

As for "ethnotagging", Andy, the subject of the BLP openly discusses his Jewish ethnic background in the referenced source. He could have declined to comment if he wished to. You won't find me arguing to categorize him as religiously Jewish, because the source makes it clear he isn't. Cullen Let's discuss it 06:15, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

"it is highly likely" - the source does not support it. Off2riorob (talk) 06:25, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Nice try. A Jewish media source asks specific questions about his background. He gives polite answers to the questions asked. So this means that he accepts everything the Misplaced Pages ethnotaggers wish to state about him? Yeah, right. And incidentally, if he isn't 'religiously Jewish' (which he isn't), is he 'Jewish' at all? Logic might suggest at least partly (ethnically), but given the fact that the article (before I removed the ethnotagging) went out of its way to point out that his maternal grandmother wasn't Jewish, according to Halachic law, he isn't. I think this is nonsense, but the ethnotaggers tend to argue otherwise - except here they don't. I wonder why? - Actually, I don't. Sadly, Misplaced Pages suffers from a surfeit of POV-pushers and obsessives from all sorts of backgrounds, who will use whatever argument they can to slap a label on someone, regardless of what they argued the last time. If Adam Levine considers himself Jewish, and is proud of the fact, good for him - but that is for him to decide, not the Misplaced Pages Committee for Ethnobureacratic Classification and Stereotyping. AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:36, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Keep ethnicity out of it. I think WP:BLPCAT and Wikipedia_talk:Categorization/Ethnicity,_gender,_religion_and_sexuality are pretty clear here. If the ethnicity/religion is ambiguous, keep it out. NickCT (talk) 16:33, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

NickCT—A person can believe that there is no God, and that the moon is made out of green cheese—and still be a Jew. Being a Jew is not predicated on holding any particular beliefs. Also, you are referring to "ethnicity". That is original research. No source that I have been able to find says anything about Adam Levine being an "ethnic Jew" or anything along those lines. You've got to stick to real language, which is to say, the language used by reliable sources. You are pointing to policy at WP:BLPCAT, which specifically speaks of "belief":

"Categories regarding religious beliefs or sexual orientation should not be used unless the subject has publicly self-identified with the belief or orientation in question, and the subject's beliefs or sexual orientation are relevant to their notable activities or public life, according to reliable published sources."

In fact there is no "belief…in question" concerning Judaism because being a Jew is not predicated on holding any particular beliefs. Please note the following:

"A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism. It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do."

"According to Jewish law, a child born to a Jewish mother or an adult who has converted to Judaism is considered a Jew; one does not have to reaffirm their Jewishness or practice any of the laws of the Torah to be Jewish."

Adam Levine was born to a non-Jewish mother. More importantly I have not found a reliable source stating that Adam Levine is Jewish. On the point of Adam Levine being born to a non-Jewish mother I think it is common knowledge that the liberal end of the spectrum of Judaism recognizes either parent as conferring Jewish identity on a child. But without a source stating that Adam Levine is Jewish, I don't think Adam Levine should be placed in any Category for Jewish identity. The notion that he is "ethnically" Jewish (you refer to his "ethnicity") is original research. No source that I have seen is using any such terminology. This is an especially important point because the majority of the world's Jewish people are not religious in any way. They may not hold any "beliefs" whatsoever of a religious nature and they may not partake of any religious "practices" whatsoever. But reliable sources are more than capable of verifying for us that they are Jewish. I am going to have to recommend that he be in no Categories relating to Jewish identity. Bus stop (talk) 21:27, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Bus stop, I have already pointed out repeatedly that 'Judaism 101' isn't WP:RS. Furthermore the second source you cite ('Who is a Jew?') cites the first as a source, so cannot be considered reliable either. Also, Halachic law is of no relevence to Misplaced Pages, as you well know. Please stop wasting peoples time with the same poor arguments repeated ad nauseam, and your own WP:OR interpretations of what 'ethnicity' means. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:40, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

AndyTheGrump—I'm not even using the word "ethnicity". I'm not sure why you are referring to "…your own WP:OR interpretations of what 'ethnicity' means." I am merely pointing out that not even one reliable source uses the term "ethnicity" or any related term in relation to Adam Levine. If you know of such a source please bring it to our attention.

Furthermore you are saying here that "…if he isn't 'religiously Jewish' (which he isn't), is he 'Jewish' at all?"

In fact there are Secular Jews. Is it your opinion that secular Jews are not Jewish? I think you are trying to apply a one-size-fits-all definition to Judaism and it does not fit.

A sampling from the lead of our Secular Jewish culture article:

"Secular Jewish culture embraces several related phenomena; above all, it is the international culture of secular communities of Jewish people, but it can also include the cultural contributions of individuals who identify as secular Jews."

Are they not Jews? The language above says otherwise. That, by the way, is the very first sentence of that article. Bus stop (talk) 22:36, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, they are. "Secular Jewish culture" is the culture of people who are (a) secular, and (b) see themselves as ethnically Jewish (not that Misplaced Pages meets WP:RS either). AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:43, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

AndyTheGrump—you are inserting the term "ethnically Jewish". Sources in fact never describe a person as being "ethnically Jewish". That is purely your own language. It is often a good idea to stick to the actual language used by sources to avoid original research. The relevant point is that no source ever says that a Jew is a person that holds any particular "belief". But if you know of such a source please present it to us.

If we were to look at Christianity, by way of contrast, we see a different type of religion. The place of Jesus in Christianity makes for a religion different from Judaism. To "believe" that the figure Jesus in a spiritual form provides Salvation is clearly in the realm of belief. The terminology used in Christianity clearly alludes to this: one speaks of "believing" in Jesus. You do not ever hear any talk parallel to this in Judaism. And sources tell us straightforwardly that one need not hold any particular "belief" in order to be a Jew. Bus stop (talk) 12:08, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Actually, the term is used. Frequently and often. And even in a number of WP articles including BLPs, hence "never" is absurd. And the categorization of people has been found to be problematic at best - so Andy is on very solid ground. , , show current news articles using the term. Need more? Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:21, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Collect—yes, the term is used, because all Jews are "ethnically Jewish", with the exception of converts to Judaism, as your 3 links above illustrate. Matisyahu, for instance, your first link above, is an Orthodox Jew. That is not how you are using the term "ethnically Jewish", and our article on Matisyahu does not, nor would it ever, refer to him as being "ethnically Jewish", because it would be redundant. Bus stop (talk) 12:27, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

You made a specific claim. The claim was shown to be wrong. Cheers. Andy has not been shown to be wrong. Cheers again. Collect (talk) 13:33, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

BTW, the cite reads specifically While always ethnically Jewish, Matisyahu was a late-bloomer in terms of his faith. Raised in White Plains, New York, his was a predominantly secular childhood with no strong connection to the sacred aspects of his Jewish heritage, or a belief in God. In short - he was not raised "Orthodox" nor was he always "Orthodox." And I suggest that more errors do not help your position on categorization. Cheers yet again. Collect (talk) 13:38, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Collect—that is correct, the quote reads: "While always ethnically Jewish, Matisyahu was a late-bloomer in terms of his faith." This is a reference to Matisyahu's having been born Jewish. Were you only using the phrase to refer to Jewish by birth I would have no objection. The source above is using the phrase correctly. Another point worth making is that this is a relatively rare usage. You don't for instance find the subject of this thread, Adam Levine, referred to by those phrases. Ethnic Jew and ethnically Jewish are rarely encountered, and they are never rarely used by reliable sources simply to refer to nonobservance. There are other, preferable terms, that well-written sources employ. They use terms like secular and nonobservant and assimilated for instance. We cannot employ a term like "ethnically Jewish" in a way basically inconsistent with the way a source uses it. Bus stop (talk) 14:34, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Bus stop, I used the term 'ethnically Jewish' on this talk page, because (a) it is common academic language when discussing ethnicity (which is what you are describing) in general terms, and (b) to distinguish from a person who is of the Judaic faith (which is a religion by any reasonable definition). Can I ask whether you agree that the terms I used are correct in general, for discussing the topic in neutral academic language, and if you don't to suggest any other way that a person can be described as 'Jewish' (again in neutral academic terms), other than by ethnicity, or by faith. 'secular' can only mean 'ethnically Jewish, but not having any religion', whereas the other terms you suggest are loaded, at minimum, in that they carry the implication that an ethnically-Jewish person ought to be a follower of the faith - and 'assimilated' is downright offensive. Talk page dialogue over complex issues needs to be conducted in the language appropriate to the topic in general, not the language preferred by a particular section within the group being discussed. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:09, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

(e/c) Bus Stop, you appear to be being deliberately obtuse about this issue and repeatedly engage in the same debates/arguments left, right and centre. Above Below you state:

"One need not be religious to be Jewish. Secular Jews are just as "Jewish" as Orthodox Jews."

Well, unfortunately, for the purposes of Misplaced Pages, secular Jews are ethnically Jewish whereas Orthodox Jews are religiously Jewish, this is what the whole debate is about, IMHO. CaptainScreebo 18:08, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

a jew is a jew. ortho or reform, secular or sephardi, tall or short. not sure why people feel a need to qualify it with adjectives. what's wrong with calling a jew, a jew? i understand explanations in a bio (like: while raised orthodox, she later became active in the conservative movement), but not adjectives. be brave - call a jew, a jew. let's see what happens. Soosim (talk) 14:28, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

What is wrong with reading a discussion before you comment? There seem to be no sources whatsoever that actually state that Levine is 'a Jew'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:34, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Sooism, your comment begs belief, especially seeing as what is written directly above your comment. Try reading Misplaced Pages:CATEGRS for example. What's wrong is that if their religion or ethnicity has no relevance to their notability or career, then it shouldn't be mentioned.

And adjectives are useful as in gay man and straight man, the first being homosexual and the second heterosexual, but according to your reasoning, damn, let's just call a man a man and not differentiate between the two. ??? I don't even know how to qualify this type of reasoning (sic). CaptainScreebo 15:33, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

CaptainScreebo—we do not have to stick to the language that you suggest here. We are free to choose from the language that relevant reliable sources provide us with. You are oversimplifying in your prescriptive language here. I think that a Jewish person can be observant, nonobservant, or in-between. I think the best way for all of us to proceed is to look for the language that reliable sources provide us with. Bus stop (talk) 15:53, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Oh, leave it out Bus stop. An ethnically Jewish person (which as yet we have no reason to see Levine as) may or may not be of the Judaic faith. Thank you for stating the blindingly obvious. Now go find (a) a source that states that Levine is Jewish (in any way whatsoever) and (b) a logical reason why this should be noted in the article beyond your wish to tag as many Jews as you can. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:00, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Oh I see Andy beat me to it, yes leave it out, I am not suggesting what language one should use, I am pointing out the difference to you between a secular/ethnic Jew and a practising/Orthodox/religious Jew, look I didn't want to say this to Sooism, but let's start handing out the yellow stars again shall we?

I know this is deeply offensive and it's not aimed at anyone in particular, but you are doing the work of the anti-semitic brigade too in keeping your ridiculous arguments going, basically anyone with Jewish heritage, whether they are observant or not is a Jew right? Both the pro- and anti- brigades wish to tag anyone and everyone possible to advance their personal agendas, Misplaced Pages is not a WP:BATTLEground, do you do anything else but repeatedly (and doggedly) intervene as soon as there is a discussion about whether someone should be labelled Jewish (secular or religious if you prefer) or not? CaptainScreebo 16:17, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes it is offensive, but also confusing. It's not clear what your point is. Nobody is tagging here, or doing the work of Nazis. There's a persistent debate among a small group of editors about Jewish identity and Jewish-related categories, that continues to spill over into multiple discussion boards, and seems to involve taunts, name-calling, and apparently Nazi comparisons. - Wikidemon (talk) 23:39, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

George Soros conspiracy theories

I'd like to ask serious BLP watchers to look at the article George Soros conspiracy theories. I'm considering putting it up for deletion. It's really just a series of "So and so accuses Soros of ..." In one case, when the Prime Minister of Malaysia accused Soros of trying to destroy Malaysia's economy, I'm pretty sure that the material can go into a Misplaced Pages BLP article - and in fact it is included in the main George Soros article. In other cases I don't think the material passes WP:BLP, e.g. Glenn Beck accuses Soros of .... All in all, the article looks to me like a way to get around BLP restrictions, which are watched quite closely in the main George Soros article, since there are a lot of conspiracy nuts that attack Soros without having any basis in facts.

Any help appreciated. Smallbones (talk) 16:56, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Yup - a mess. And if someone is trying to use it to 'get around BLP restrictions', they are mistaken. WP:BLP applies to edits about living persons anywhere on Misplaced Pages. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:01, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

I listed it at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/George Soros conspiracy theories Smallbones (talk) 00:39, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Vic Mignogna

Vic Mignogna (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

The 'Controversies' section that is continually added only contains biased information about Vic Mignogna, and the content that is written includes defamation.

The source that continues to add it, Weeaboo Stories, is not a reliable source and does not provide true information on the subject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.97.100.236 (talk) 20:28, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Article could use a couple of additional watchlisters. You are totally correct - thank you for the report. The content is currently out of the article and I will watch it to stop it being replaced and will request it is protected if there are attempts to replace it. Article could also use a little wikification. Trim and tidy type project. Off2riorob (talk) 21:17, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

I have also added the article to my watchlist. Sorry for reverting the removal, the text shouldn't be there and it's good if we keep an eye on it. Small hint to the IP, please give an Edit summary, it surely prevents your removal from being reverted.Cst17 (talk) 21:37, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Sorry for reverting the removal. I agree with User:Cst17 - the removal was tagged 'section blanking' and there was no explanation. Denisarona (talk) 06:52, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Stamatios Krimigis

An IP editor claiming to represent the subject placed a statement of concern in the article itself here. I have moved the statement to the talk page and have notified the IP editor. Regards, Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 20:34, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Pamela Geller, Atlas Shrugs, Anders Behring Breivik and the 2011 Norway attacks

In a manifesto posted online, the admitted killer in the 2011 Norway attacks, Anders Behring Breivik, praised Geller and cited her "Atlas Shrugs" blog. The truth of this can be found here: http://www.slate.com/id/2299967/ Ms. Geller responded to media accounts here: http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2011/07/media-assassins.html This fact was removed from this entry because "one nut-caseadmirer has nothing to do with her biography." But the fact that Charles Manson and his murderous followers were motivated by a misinterpretation of a Beatles song is included in the entry for Helter Skelter. In addition, Jody Foster's Misplaced Pages entry notes that John Hinckley, Jr. became obsessed with Foster after repeatedly watching the film Taxi Driver and that Hinckley attempted to assassinate President Reagan to impress her. Is it not equally significant and noteworthy that the man who detonated a bomb in the capital of Norway and killed scores of people specifically cited Ms. Geller's blog in the manifesto that he published to explain his actions?  Mr JM  01:29, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

No, because Breivik cites all sorts of people in his rambling and contradictory manifesto. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:06, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Agree with Andy. Those examples are ones where the two have become linked over time and in a way that is itself notable. Such links are not notable at this time between Breveik and any of the people he quotes.Griswaldo (talk) 02:32, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

ABB praised Geller in a few lines of his huge manifesto. Reliable sources show this is true. But unlike the Helter Skelter and Jody Foster examples, no reliable sources have shown that this manifesto is significant in understanding Geller. That's why we can't include this in a BLP. – Quadell 16:48, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

It is notable and worth including. This exact same discussion is being had above for Robert Spencer. See Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Anders_Behring_Breivik_.283.29. NickCT (talk) 16:50, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

It is notable only in the BIO of Breivik. His motivations in his article only - do not coatrack the mass murdering of people in the BLP's of uninvolved living people. I read that the mass murdering has been said by his lawyer to be insane, although this is likely not an official position I imaginer tests are underway, resulting in attempting to add to peoples BLP articles that a mass murderer that was said to be insane by his lawyer said he did it because of (add all the names her} - such addition to a BLP of as person completely involved is undue completely and has nothing to do with anyones BLP other than the mass murderer that has been commented as insane by his lawyer.... Off2riorob (talk) 18:51, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Off2riorob I agree with you in general on this, but would note that in Spencer's specific case, he has responded at length on several occasions, including 4 separate media interviews. Is a brief mention of the incident that is inclusive of Spencer's criticism of Breivik as well as the general media response a form of coatrack? How so?Jemiljan (talk) 23:04, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

With a rewrite perhaps - to remove any weight towards the subjects association or a cause and effect assertion. Personally - a possibly insane person mentions a living person and that living person is asked by the press about it and they say that crazy person is nothing to do with me - seem reasonable to me - its only notable about the claimed to be crazy mass murderer not about the person mentioned its a undue position to add it to the innocent persons BLP..... If a subject uses the association to gain audience time and to make multiple interviews about it then their may likely be a case for inclusion of some detail, however imo the focus should clearly be on the content about the subject and not the mass murderer. Any addition like this to Gellers BLP is clearly undue - Geller and her "Atlas Shrugs" blog were praised by the mass murderer Breveik. - Off2riorob (talk) 19:18, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Absolutely! I am in full agreement with you here. When and if a subject is implicated in an event or controversy, and responds to it publicly in a high-profile fashion and more than in passing, then WP:BLP entries should be able to accommodate a passage that summarizes the event and includes a response by the subject from a third-party reliable source. It should be no more than a couple of sentences- even if they conduct multiple interviews like Spencer has, one can simply cite the interviews, not discuss them.

I think that a reasonable analogy can be found in the passage regarding Sarah Palin's response to the Giffords shooting ] There was a very extensive debate over this issue on these noticeboards, as well as her talk page. The wording was clearly achieved through a consensus. Also note the passage about John F. Hinckley in the entry on Jodie Foster. Neither passage implicates the subject, or is overly undue (although I don't like the addition of the poll numbers on Sarah Palin's passage, it is in a section on her public image). It seems to me that such events should have a well-developed stated policy so as to manage the response of editors.

There is already an earlier thread on this topic above. I think this hsould be discusse din the respective article, not on this forum, unless there is controversy in the specific article. However, in this case we cannot ignor ethe fact that WP:ABOUTSELF directly addressed the question, and we should include both this item (and her response) and of course this jewel: in which she says stuff like "Utoya Island is a Communist/Socialist campground, and they clearly had a pro-Islamic agenda. That is not guilt by association, that is WP:ABOUTSELF. Once notable, as Jimbo Wales himself discovered, you cannot put that cat once in the bag and anything that can be sourced about you that is relevant to your notability (and subjected to consensus) is included. Again, my position is that this be discussed in the article, but we cannot ignore WP:ABOUTSELF in the case of this particular issue. Again, nuance and consensus in each article - rather than a systemic approach - is needed. --Cerejota (talk) 22:33, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

In other words, we either delete Pamela Geller, or anything controversial, provocative, or otherwise cringe inducing she self-publishes in the blog that made her notable on the first place is subject to inclusion in the article about her under WP:ABOUTSELF. Lets be unequivocally clear here, there are *no BLP issues* in doing so, because she has not refrained from the topic herself, and hence there is no presumption of injury to her reputation or standing as they are her own words - which is why we have BLP protection. Of course, being subject to inclusion is not the same as "we must include", bu thats an issue of consensus, not BLP. If we treat this as a BLP issue, we are essentially saying that Misplaced Pages has a responsibility to protect people from themselves, and that is well beyond all of the spirit and letter of our reason to exist to be even seriously argued.--Cerejota (talk) 22:41, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

aBOUT SELF - yes - if Geller said the summer cammp was a liberal pro islam location then it will get reported in independant sources and we can add it - that Geller said the summer camp was a ...bla bla. - if its reported and asserts as notable not as a soapboxing personal blog comment - Geller blogs a lot of stuff, unless its reported independently we should be careful to republish it - Gellers claim that the summer camp participants are muslim lovin liberals is not about herself but accusations about others and fails self pub. Off2riorob (talk) 22:47, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Damn, lastly I hope, I do agree that any simplified "guilt by association" link or mention would be unacceptable. It has to be a NPOV presentation of Geller's reaction to criticism leveled at her, and of her reaction to the 2011 Norway attacks - which goes well beyond Breivik simply mentioning her in his diatribe.--Cerejota (talk) 22:46, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Geller's response has been reported and discussed by Ada Serwer's article here, and it seems better written in comparison to others, as he clearly doesn't try and imply that "Geller made him Breivik it" from the outset. It focuses on Geller's comments about the camp, as well as her comments about the features of the attendees. Is this the sort of reference that can be used as a WP:RS source? What do you think?Jemiljan (talk) 02:02, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Agnes Varis

User:Dror64 has made this large, uncited, non-neutral POV change to this article, despite my reversions (1, 2 & 3) and the warnings / responses on their talk page / in my edit summaries. Nikthestoned 15:31, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

The article is now protected by Daniel Case (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA). In my opinion it would have been better to block Dror64 (talk · contribs) since protection has restricted editors from making constructive changes to the article. I've said as much on his talk page . Not much else to see here, it seems. causa sui (talk) 23:39, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

See http://www.tedstake.com/2011/08/01/agnes-varis/, the blogger Ted Leonsis claims she was his great aunt and died this weekend. Fences&Windows 01:23, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I must say the response to Dror64 was pretty appalling - someone in good faith came along to try to document her life after her death this weekend, and he was met by edit warring and the locking of the page so that it appears she is still alive. Wikipedians really are heartless automatons sometimes. Fences&Windows 01:30, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure what else to recommend. The content the user added was unequivocally unencyclopedic. It's a distinction from someone acting out of admirable and perfectly understandable love and respect for the deceased and a desire to memorialize and commemorate her life, and someone acting out of an intent to make the most informative, well-written and referenced, comprehensive, encyclopedic and neutral encyclopedia article possible. What we have here is the former and not the latter. Unfortunately, Misplaced Pages cannot be an outlet for the perfectly reasonable and understandable desire of the family to commemorate and memorialize the subject. causa sui (talk) 18:09, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Tori Black

Tori Black (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

WP:BLP states that caution should be used publishing information on living persons, such as a birth name. i have included the real name of pornographic actress Tori Black, for the following reasons: 1) Tori BLack has made her real name public in a number of ways, including biographical detail in "reality" segments, a facebook page, and at the AVN; consequently, it makes no sense to argue that publishing is harmful. 2) per WP:BLP, the name is sourced. 3) WP:BLP also states that performers' names may be included 4) the longstanding, informal rule omitting porn performer's names is an obvious violation of WP:NPOV. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.113.198.182 (talk) 22:52, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Without confirmation that it is indeed her facebook page (given the amount of impersonations that go on), it is better to err on the side of caution and not include this information. You shouldn't be edit warring over this. It's not a violation of WP:NPOV to enforce WP:V and WP:RS strictly with regards to biographies of living people. Morbidthoughts (talk) 23:09, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Agree with Morbidthoughts above, if there is any doubt whatsoever, err on the side of caution. Please stop edit warring, if another editor agrees with you and makes the case for consensus here, let them readd the information. Dayewalker (talk) 23:20, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Can you amplify on your statement that it is "obviously" a violation of NPOV not to include their real names? I'm not sure how that is related to neutrality at all, actually. Is there a pressing encyclopedic need to reveal real names of pornographic actors and actresses? causa sui (talk) 23:41, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Boris Berezovsky (businessman)

Boris Berezovsky (businessman) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Reporting repeated reinstatements by users Alex Bakharev and Deepdish7 of poorly sourced, potentially libelous information. The subject of this BLP, Boris Berezovsky, had three successful libel suits in London over the information, which has been reinstated into the article (diff: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Boris_Berezovsky_(businessman)&diff=prev&oldid=442582893). The material in question contains wrongful accusations of Mr Berezobsky of criminal activities including murder, threats of violence and financing terrorists. This is a serious matter, which should be addressed immediately.--Kolokol1 (talk) 00:52, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

• User Kolokol1 repeatedly deletes well sourced (with links to widely recognized newspapers such as Forbes magazine) material, including even whole sections of the page. After he performs his edits half of the page is normally gone, which has been contributed by many people on the board. He comes up with absurd and unfounded accusations of antisemitism to former Forbes Russia general editor and a very well known person Paul Klebnikov. When actually he never mentioned the nationality of Boris Berezovsky at all in his writings. Will keep restoring the original version which corresponds to NPOV. Hope Misplaced Pages interferes and stops vandalism by user Deepdish7 (talk) 23:25, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

• • Reinsertion of potentially libelous material has occurred three times within the period of 24 hours. User deepdish7 is threatening to keep reinserting the contentious text (see above). This is happening notwithstanding the fact that over the past few years British courts three times have ruled for Mr. Berezovsky in his libel actions over the very same allegations that are made here.--Kolokol1 (talk) 00:01, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

• • • A few months after the article in Forbes was published, Berezovsky sued the magazine for libel (in February 1997) in British court. In 2003 the court ruled that Forbes remove ONLY ONE statement from the article, as it didn't have enough evidence to support the claim that Berezovsky arranged murder of famous anchorman and TV producer Vlad Listyev. The court didn't order Forbes to remove the rest of the article from the website nor acknowledge that all data contained in it was false, nor forced Forbes to pay a compensation, that Berezovsky wanted when filing his claim. The article is still available online on the Forbes website (with exception of one above mentioned statement). Some media sources controlled by Berezovsky though, such as Kommersant magazine, reported, that Forbes "lost the case" and "completely retracted their claims against Berezovsky" which actually never happened. Berezovsky NEVER contested in court the book "Godfather of the Kremlin: Boris Berezovsky and the looting of Russia" that Klebnikov published in 2000, which was a very extended version of the article.Deepdish7 (talk) 14:00, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

• • • • Repeating defamatory statements on this noticeboard, which you just did, is against the rules. Regarding Forbes, this is what it has said in its retraction: "(1) it was not the magazine's intention to state that Berezovsky was responsible for the murder of Listiev, only that he had been included in an inconclusive police investigation of the crime; (2) there is no evidence that Berezovsky was responsible for this or any other murder; (3) in light of the English court's ruling, it was wrong to characterize Berezovsky as a mafia boss". The retraction is an admission of wrongdoing. It testifies for poor sourcing and potentially libelous character of your text too. That Berezovsky did not sue Klebnikov, after his lies have been exposed once, was his choice. He still may choose to sue others who keep repeating those lies--Kolokol1 (talk) 16:28, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

• • • • • Vandalism that you're executing on Berezovsky's article is far more against Misplaced Pages's rules. I already answered to you, that Forbes agreed to retract ONLY ONE claim related to Berezovsky arranging Listyev's (or someone else's) murder, whereas other accusations against Berezovsky remained in place. It does not testify libelous character of the text but simply the fact that Forbes didn't manage to gather enough evidence to prove this particular accusation, still other accusations were well supported and this is why the court didn't award Berezovsky victory over them. The court DID NOT order newspaper to remove the article, despite Berezovsky was asking for it in its claim. The fact that the court allowed Forbes to leave the article on the website with other accusations confirms that the court did not accept claim by Berezovsky but only agreed on it to a very small extent. And in general, article is simply peanuts comparing to the book in terms of number of accusations and evidence gathered against Berezovsky. So he simply decided not to sue Klebnikov because he had no chances to win the case in court Deepdish7. Even if you don't like certain sections of the page, such as Fridman claiming that Berezovsky personally threatened him, you can supply a link to court decision under the same section. You have no right to delete whole sections of the article instead and do not conform to Wiki rules when you do that, so we'll keep cleaning your destructive job and restoring information in the article (talk) 17:16, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages's policy clearly states: "Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced should not be inserted and if present, must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if there are other concerns about the biography of a living person, please report the issue to this noticeboard." I have removed the potentilally libelous allegations twice and have edited the text in accordance with the stated WP policy and I have duly reported the issue. I am reluctant to continue this game of removal and reinsertion and will let the potentially libelous version of the article stand to give Misplaced Pages a chance to review and resolve this potentially precarious situation--Kolokol1 (talk) 23:43, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Besides Klebnikov's allegations, which were retracted by Forbes, the contested text repeats slanderous allegations by Friedman, and by Russian media related to Litvinenko murder. Both were found libelous in British courts--Kolokol1 (talk) 16:23, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Freddie Foreman

Freddie Foreman (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

• - Freddie Foreman - is it libel to call him a criminal rather than a 'former criminal'?

See . Do we also say 'former murderer' when a murderer has served his time? Dougweller (talk) 10:15, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Why not "convicted" rather than "former". There can't be any argument that he was convicted, even if he has served his time. – ukexpat (talk) 15:40, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Former or convicted is better. "criminal" implies that this is his current profession. "Murderer" doesn't imply this is a current profession nearly as much. --GRuban (talk) 21:10, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Freddie Foreman (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) - article is not a biography - its a rap sheet / crime report - content should be under the crime where it likely already is duplicated. Off2riorob (talk) 20:28, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Edward A. McCabe

Edward A. McCabe (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I was doing some research into the Eisenhower administration and looked up one of his top advisors, Edward A. McCabe. He is listed as a living person and I found what I believe to be his Obituary from October 4, 2008 in the Washington Post with a guest book. A number of the comments lead me to believe that this is same person who is listed as still living. Here is a link to this obituary:

http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/washingtonpost/obituary.aspx?n=edward-a-mccabe&pid=118479593&fhid=2167 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anoodnik (talk • contribs) 19:45, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Edward A. McCabe (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) - not notable white house staffer - Off2riorob (talk) 20:23, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Ha. What a silly nomination. Fences&Windows 20:43, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

He was dead for three years without any care or interest at all - no one is interested , his notability is actually zero. If it wasn't for this report he would still be alive according to wikipedia. Its not silly at all - Its a shame that[REDACTED] had him as living for three years after he died. - his family and friends didn't even bother reading his article here - the reason that occurred is because he is actually of such low notability that no one was bothered at all - such as this is what happens when users create biographies of low notability subjects - no one bothers or is interested to update them. I will nominate all such low notable people for deletion simply to protect them. - Off2riorob (talk) 21:51, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Off2riorob's argument against this article is bizarre. He thinks that this article about a notable political figure in the 1950s and 1960s should be deleted because no one until now improved a stub and added the fact that he is dead. Well, that fact and many more have been added to what was, but is no longer, a stub. Stubs on notable but somewhat obscure topics are OK, but expanded articles are better. It is now an informative article, but Off2riorob now thinks it should be deleted. He thinks that if this person is notable, someone before Fences and Windows should have improved the article, but is not satisfied by the improvements that Fences and Windows has made. Please remember, Off2riorb, that 99.9% of the world's population are not Misplaced Pages editors, but billions of people use our encyclopedias in many languages - millions every day. Shortcomings in an existing article is not evidence that the topic is not notable, but instead is only an additional piece of evidence that this encyclopedia is a work in progress. Cullen Let's discuss it 06:14, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Yea, go ahead improve it , great, but loudly asserting how fantastically notable when he is dead for years before anyone even notices is also bizarre. The stub looked like this when I nominated it, barely edited in a couple of years - a dead person that was of little interest it was not even added to the article after over two years - this encyclopedia is a work in progress - is not an excuse to host poorly written factually false content about low notability people. If nominating it for deletion is what it takes to get it improved then I am happy. - As a side issue - I also sometimes wonder when articles are improved with the intention of keeping it if that desire is a NPOV energy to expand such low notability subjects, such energy imo creates and attempts to assert notability at all costs in a effort to keep keep at all costs - in the article in the lede - it says he was a staffer and then adds as though a notable thing "and the founding chairman of the student loans organization Sallie Mae" but McCabe is not mentioned at all in the Sallie Mae article. Off2riorob (talk) 20:14, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

"Notable" is our criterion here, Off2riorob, not "fantastically notable", whatever that means. You could propose to have a bot written that would delete the one million Misplaced Pages articles that are least often viewed, because all those articles could be considered "low notability" as if that notion had any credibility with more than a handful of people here. Don't congratulate yourself for your AfD nomination, because it was a new user called Anoodnik who motivated improvement of this article, not you. Your AfD nomination resulted only in consternation rather than improvement of the encyclopedia. Yes, we had a weak stub before, but someone genuinely interested in senior staffers of the Eisenhower administration, an editor called Anoodnik, brought the shortcomings in that article to our attention. Because of that input and especially the work done by Fences and Windows, we now have a vastly better article. You continue to demean this man's notability despite the fact that the New York Times wrote about him with his name in headlines, and half a century later, the Washington Post assigned a staff writer to compose a detailed and respectful obituary. This wasn't a paid, family-submitted obituary - it was genuine journalistic coverage that described the many ways that he was notable. You think that failure of relatives to update a stub is evidence that he wasn't notable. Hogwash. This man was 92 years old and suffering from dementia when he died. Misplaced Pages wasn't even thought of when he was at the top of his game. As for the fact that he isn't mentioned in the current version of our article about Sallie Mae, perhaps you might consider researching the early history of that organization and improving that section of the article. The fact that he isn't mentioned there is utterly irrelevant, but you could add a description of his role in the founding, now that the references have been handed on a platter. Your comments here are far more a reflection on your editing here than on the notability of Edward A. McCabe. Cullen Let's discuss it 04:02, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Someone that no one notices dies is not very notable, that is just a basic reality. You think its great now its improved and don't care that he was alive here for three years after his death and I do care about that - imo its a shame on the project caused by keeping at all costs all sorts of low notable people. I am glad the article has been improved - that is reflective of my contributions here, I want high quality articles not false data, personally I think you should get of my back about it, you appear to have been on at me since the Adam Levine discussion above - are you upset about that? If not stop making a mountain out of a molehill and let it drop. Thanks. Off2riorob (talk) 17:10, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for closing the Edward A. McCabe AfD as a "keep", Off2riorob. It was a good decision and I appreciate it. We've disagreed about two unrelated things this week, but there is no connection. I am not upset about the Adam Levine discussion. I think everyone agrees that he shouldn't be categorized as Jewish, since he clearly isn't Jewish. We just disagreed about the secondary issue of how to characterize his Jewish ancestry. So, I am willing to let both matters drop, and look forward to the next opportunity to agree with you as opposed to disagreeing with you. I don't hold grudges and I wish you well. Cullen Let's discuss it 00:54, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Cool, thanks for those comments. Off2riorob (talk) 19:29, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Jessi Colter DOB

1947 or 1943? Bringing this old thread back up. Google search for 1943: Books: and 1947: Books: . Which one? Connormah (talk) 22:47, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Can you list both and cite both? - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 00:42, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Reiner Protsch Von Zeiten

Reiner Protsch (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I was appalled to read your entry concerning "German Anthropologist Reiner Protsch Von Zeiten." Talk about libelous, it most certainly is. Having read the several articles about the dating scandal, I noted in each that assertions about Protsch's alleged lack of credibility were partly if not largely a matter of opinion and a good deal of professional jealousy was apparent. I knew Reiner Protsch when I was an undergrad at UCLA, majoring in Zoology, and he was a grad student in the Geology Department dating laboratory, specializing in flourine dating. I recall even then that he'd run across some data suggesting that Neanderthal Man had coexisted for a time in Europe with modern man and that there may have been some interbreeding going on. Although he was a character, his honesty, hard work, and informed attitude about many subjects was clearly evident. We really don't know as much as we sometimes like to think about almost any scientific subject you care to name, but leave it to the people at Oxford to assert that only they understand the true facts. I read another article in Misplaced Pages about a UCLA grad student, Carlos Castaneda, that members of Misplaced Pages similarly lambasted because of the opinion of one researcher who considered him a conman and nothing more. I recently heard a librarian at our local community college warn students not to use Misplaced Pages for resource material because it is not reliable. As an author, myself, I sometimes use references from Misplaced Pages for minor matters where no controversy exists. But when it comes to the controversial topics I personally know about, you folks are often grotesquely biased. In my opinion, you owe Protsch an apology and should tone down your article considerably. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tbecker476 (talk • contribs) 23:40, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I've removed the Sceptic's Dictionary as a source since previous discussions at the reliable sources noticeboard appear to indicate that it isn't suitable for a biography of a living person. I've also added a link to the online version of Archaeological Institute of America's magazine article cited as a source. Having read through that article and the Guardian article I don't see substantial differences between what the Misplaced Pages article says and what those 2 sources say. It probably needs a thorough review though. Sean.hoyland - talk 16:53, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

...and I've promptly removed almost all of the rest - our article almost certainly qualifies as plagiarism of the Archaeological Institute of America article. I con see no reason why a properly sourced and cited article about Protsch cannot be included in Misplaced Pages, but not the one we have at the moment... AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:57, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Yep, I think you're right. It's better to start from scratch. The article was written like an exposé rather than an encyclopedia article. Sean.hoyland - talk 17:05, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

There is also the question as to how notable Protsch really is. If this alleged misconduct it his only claim to 'fame', I doubt that he merits an article - and if it isn't, the article needs more about whatever else he is notable for. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:12, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

User:Serpent's Choice/Sandbox/Review

User:Serpent's Choice/Sandbox/Review is a copy of the article formerly at Charlotte Wyatt deleted in 2007 through BLP. It could be argued that the deleted article could be restored given the number of references and the ongoing presence on search engines. Key to me raising this here though is that while a search for "Charlotte Wyatt" does not bring up and links to Misplaced Pages, a search for "Charlotte Wyatt Wiki" (a common way of searching for Misplaced Pages content and one of the Google autocompletes) does bring up the page in user space as the first hit. Interestingly it also has right to life as the third result, a relevant page but it does not mention Charlotte there.

The options therefore are:

1. We leave it, it's in user space so it doesn't matter
2. We undelete Charlotte Wyatt on the basis that it is notable
3. We delete/blank User:Serpent's Choice/Sandbox/Review
4. We NOINDEX User:Serpent's Choice/Sandbox/Review

I really don't have a particularly strong view either way. violet/riga  19:19, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Rio Ferdinand

nothing BLP contentious here - the rest belongs on the talk page of the article.--Scott Mac 21:10, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

PeeJay2K3 (talk · contribs) is violating the WP:BLP policy Rio Ferdinand inserting his opinion backed with two book sources. Perhaps they are reliables, I don't know. (The books are The PFA Footballers' Who's Who 2009–10 by Barry J. Hugman, and Sky Sports Football Yearbook 2009–2010. by Jack and Glenda Rollin). The problem here is that PJ is saying that Manchester United F.C., his football team is wrong. How they can be wrong when they do medical tests? According to him because " seen him and he cannot be 1.95" or in other words, his own opinion. After I made a simple research at Google I got 4 reliable sources saying he is actually 1.95m (6 ft 5 in):

• Manchester United F.C. Height: 195.5cm. In my opinion, the most reliable source due they know their players.
• UEFA, which is the administrative and controlling body for European association football, futsal and beach soccer, said Height: 195cm
• Goal.com, a website for international football news, Altura: (Height): 195cm
• FC Barcelona, another football team, With Rio Ferdinand measuring 195 centimetres...

4 reliable sources, one his teama and another that is the organisation which administrate European football cannot be wrong as PJ is trying to say. If he can prove that Ms. Rolling, Mr. Rolling or Mr. Hugman took a tape measure and actually they measured him, those sources are less reliable than online reliable sources.

The questions are:

• What can be done here?
• Who is right and who wrong (The online sources or the offline ones)?
• Have PJ a copy of those books and they really say that? Because this is not the first time somebody change something written in a book.
• Is PJ making BLP violation and should be reverted and/or blocked?

Tbhotch. Grammatically incorrect? Correct it! See terms and conditions. 20:01, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

This is not a contentious issue and not a significant BLP problem - discuss it on the talk page. I've started off somewhere to gather evidence for both heights. violet/riga  20:15, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

I very much doubt you will take my word for it, but I do have copies of those books, and I know a lot of other people who have even more up-to-date versions that say exactly the same thing: Rio Ferdinand is 6 feet and 2 inches tall. In fact, I have another book (Manchester United: The Biography by Jim White) that accurately states that Ferdinand is 6 feet and 2.5 inches tall. I can also find online sources (ESPNsoccernet, The Telegraph and Yahoo! Eurosport) that give Ferdinand's height as between 6'2" and 6'3". But regardless of which of those you believe, Rio Ferdinand is definitely not 6'5", and any source that tells you he is 6'5" has probably copied it from Misplaced Pages when it was stating the wrong height. – PeeJay 20:21, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Manchester cannot copy what we say, they are not too lazy to copy us. They must do medical tests and they cannot cheat. Tbhotch. Grammatically incorrect? Correct it! See terms and conditions. 20:26, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Who says the people who write ManUtd.com didn't make a mistake? – PeeJay 20:28, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Luke Evans (actor)

Luke Evans (actor) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

User "Acerroad" keeps deleting properly sourced and verified information regarding the personal life of this individual. The section should read:

Luke Evans came out as gay in an interview with The Advocate in 2002. In September, 2010, however, it was reported that he was dating a woman, Holly Goodchild, the former personal assistant of singer Charlotte Church. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pepe1958 (talk • contribs) 21:46, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Acerroad is correct to delete this. Evan's sexuality is of no relevance to the article: see WP:BLPCAT. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:58, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Disagree. Evans' himself spoke openly about his personal life in 2002. If this is removed, then all information regarding the personal lives of Angelina Jolie, Brad Pitt, and Jennifer Aniston should be removed, as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pepe1958 (talk • contribs) 22:08, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Also, you cite WP:BLPCAT, yet the information about Evans' personal life fits the regulations stated there: he himself admitted as such in a reliable source and it was part of his notable achievements early as an actor, starring in the musical Taboo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pepe1958 (talk • contribs) 22:14, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Given that you yourself cite two contradictory sources, how can he possibly be unambiguously be categorised as 'gay'? As for Taboo, I fail to see the relevance: playing Shylock doesn't make you Jewish. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:21, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Tawana Brawley rape allegations

Tawana Brawley rape allegations (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

After Brawley's rape allegations were shown to be false, she withdrew from the public eye. She has since joined the Nation of Islam and changed her name. Is it appropriate to mention those facts in this article, or does WP:BLP#Presumption in favor of privacy preclude it? — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 17:40, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't think her later life should be mentioned. If she has changed her name, she may be trying to disconnect from an earlier negative experience. She is not a public figure who needs to be followed with successive developments in her life unless they are strictly connected to the earlier incident that was in the public eye. I think we should be presuming privacy is called for. She was also quite young when she was in the public spotlight. Life changes a lot with the transition to adulthood. Bus stop (talk) 18:03, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree. This is an article about a notable incident that happened a long time ago. It is not a biography that ought to describe every event of her life. Let's respect her privacy now. Cullen Let's discuss it 02:31, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Spam Lovely Spam wonderful spam

Get a load of this Deborah Winters (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). Some days I dont know whether to hate or love the Misplaced Pages Review when they find stuff like this. The question is what do we do with it now? The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 20:55, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Would you believe the first 10 ratings were unanimous straight 5s? I removed a bit of the puff/resume. Do folks really expect WP to be an agent? I love the fact that she married the producer <g>. Cheers. Collect (talk) 21:06, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

And would you believe that everyone of her films has it's own article by the same SPA? I moving on to COIN with this. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 23:26, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

I've cleaned up the article a bit. I've looked through every one of the references and they seem somewhat malformed per MoS guidelines, also removed extraneous trivia and adjusted some wording. In my opinion the present number of images seems to be overwhelming the text. Shearonink (talk) 05:10, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Robert Petkoff

Robert Petkoff (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I have a Wiki editor who will not allow me to make changes to a page that I contribute to. The requested changes to the Wiki page have been made, and noted, and still this editor will not allow the page to stand corrected. Could I please ask someone to address this? I believe this editor has a personal agenda that is not allowing for an updated article. Thank you for your help. Cwands (talk) 22:36, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

You have been advised not to blank maintenance templates on articles, particularly as you largely, or exclusively, edit articles of close relatives and display a very apparent COI when doing so. Stop playing dumb. Your last post on this noticeboard elicited this repsonse, not only supporting the maintenance templates on the article but, quite rightly, suggesting a new one, "like resume" which I have added. You have in no way addressed the issues in question and with your evident COI are patently incapable of doing so. There is no basis for your accusation that there is a personal agenda to my actions so don't bandy it around. Doddy Wuid (talk) 23:02, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

This is an example of the Wiki editor who seems to have a bias for my contributions to the article for Robert Petkoff. I was asked by an editor in the Living Persons Template noticeboard to revise the article to less of a CV format and I have done so. Again, I have to ask that someone else other than Doddy Wuid address this issue. Cwands (talk) 23:08, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Without getting into the details here, would you like help building this page as a proper encyclopedia article? You've done a much better job of assembling sources here than on your last attempt. I've made some very minor changes to the page so far. The subject clearly meets our notability guides, and if it's going to stay, it needs some cleanup. Could I help? BusterD (talk)

Buster D: Thank you so much for your offer to help. Please advise any changes and I will be more than happy to revise this article. I really do want to adhere to Wiki's protocol - just please let me know what needs to go or stay and I will be happy to edit. Thanks again. Cwands (talk) 23:43, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

I've started a discussion section on the talk page. I've provided some links which will provide guidance on how we can improve the papespace to stay within Wikpedia's policies, guidelines and common practice. I encourage others to help keep eyes on the space, and feel invited to help source and cleanup this COI/BLP issue. BusterD (talk) 00:28, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Also a copyvio issue. BusterD (talk) 01:26, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

I've stubified the article except for sources and bare intro, transferred the whole lot over to my sandboxspace, and User:Cwands is extracting sources so we can format them properly. Then we can write the entire piece as an encyclopedic biography of a notable and durable stage performer. For the record, I was one editor who endorsed deletion of this editor's previous BLP/COI creation. In this case, I'm satisfied with the sources I'm finding on my own, so my impulse is to improve the space as opposed to bite the newbie. Maybe I'm naive. Every once in a while, we get a new editor who may make meaningful contributions on their own. This user has been totally honest about mistakes, so I figure, let's help. Honest persistent people can become useful wikipedians. BusterD (talk) 17:54, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Roy Hibbert

The subject of this article has publicly complained via Twitter that his Misplaced Pages page is incorrect, and that he is "an American that played on the Jamaican team." I removed the "Jamaican" nationality from the info box, and the statement in the lede that he has Jamaican citizenship, since I couldn't find a single source stating either, including the references in the article. User:Namiba is edit-warring to keep reinserting various forms of Hibbert being Jamaican nationality or citizen, including saying that "to represent a country you need citizenship of it as part of intl rules". Until there is a reliable source stating that Hibbert is a "Jamaican citizen" and has "Jamaican nationality", these things shouldn't be in the article, since it seems controversial, at least with the subject himself. First Light (talk) 22:50, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Jamaica's Hibbert working hard to reach the top is one such source. It really is not a controversial topic to say that someone who represents a country internationally is a citizen of that country. It is sort of self explanatory, no? The article linked above explicitly says he is Jamaican, Trinidadian and American.--TM 23:09, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Roy Hibbert doesn't seem to think this is as silly as you find it, so his citizenship and "nationality" need to be verified by reliable sources, not by conjecture. The article falls under the requirements of WP:BLP. Even if that source were reliable, does that mean the article should state that he is a Jamaican-Trinidadian-American? First Light (talk) 23:33, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Also being discussed at Talk:Roy Hibbert. First Light (talk) 04:38, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Avner Greif

My name is Avner Greif and I am writing to report an abuse of the Misplaced Pages entry bearing my name.

I request that the recent addition, cited below, will be removed. It is a self-serving, attention grabbing, and inaccurate discussion of my work and opinions. I propose that access to this entry will be restricted.

As a background, I am a professor of economic history at Stanford University and I work on the relations between institutions, culture, and economic and political outcomes. I have a BA in Economic and History of the Jewish People, a Master in Economic and History of the Jewish People and a Phd in Economics. I have been publishing since 1989 and my work has more than 6,000 citations in Google Scholars and more than 1,000 citations in professional publications (based on the Web of Knowledge).

The paragraph in dispute is offensive. Particularly offensive is the statement “Boldizzoni argues that Institutions and the Path to the Modern Economy has little to do with medieval history but is in fact a neoconservative narrative which owes its success to the revival of the cultural conflict after September 11, 2001.<http://en.wikipedia.org/Avner_Greif#cite_note-4>.”

This is Boldizzoni’s opinion of my political views and it is vacuous. My comparative work on trade in Europe and the Middle East was published from 1989 to 1996, long before Sept. 11 and it was only summarized in my 2006 book. I have never wrote or spoke in a neo-conservative outlet or been a member of a related organization. Moreover, this statement casts doubt on my professional integrity by arguing that my scholarship is biased by political views.

The rest of the paragraph discusses two critics of my works. No explanation is provided to why out of the thousands of studies that discuss or cite my work, these two particular ones should be discussed at length if at all. This discussion amounts to no more than abuse of Misplaced Pages to promote these two particular works.

Boldizzoni’s book as published on June, 2011 and I had never heard about this scholar before. According to Google Scholar, he was publishing since 2004 but has only 8 citations. I searched his book (using Amazon’s content search) and found only 9 reference to my work in the text (and 3 in the bibliography). The book has more than 200 pages and its ‘critic’ is mediocre. E.g., alleging to find some referencing mistake in a 500 pages book with hundreds of references. The claim in Misplaced Pages “no familiarity with the primary sources” ignores that my research was based on hundreds of documents written in Latin and Judeo-Arabic.

I object, on similar ground, to the discussion of Edwards and Ogilvie. Their 2008 paper has focus on evaluating my work but my response has been so devastating to their claim that they completely revised their position in a paper with the same name in 2009 (see http://econpapers.repec.org/paper/camcamdae/0928.htm). The 2010 version of their paper (which I will be happy to send you) does not even cite the 2008 version. I don’t see why Misplaced Pages should refer to a paper that its authors no longer cite.

I will be happy to further elaborate on these issues if it would be helpful but I do hope you will eliminate this abuse of Misplaced Pages.

Thank you for your time and attention.

Yours, Avner Greif

This addition is the following. (Redacted)— Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.127.55.83 (talk) 06:35, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

That material has been removed from the article per WP:BLP and the article has been semi-protected. – ukexpat (talk) 19:30, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

And I have removed it from this page.  – ukexpat (talk) 19:32, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Sanjay Chandra

Several of the edits to this page in the last few days have included defamatory unsourced or poorly sourced content. Other new editors have reacted by adding positive but still poorly sourced content that probably violates WP:NPOV. Some additional eyes on this page would be helpful. VQuakr (talk) 07:19, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

I'll have a look. Thanks VQuakr, for providing a link. Many others are forgetting this :-) -- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:49, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

I've cleaned it up and its on my watchlist. Let's see what we can do to keep in proper shape. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 17:27, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Duncan James

Duncan James (boyband singer) is currently listed as bisexual and has many attending LGBT cats. It is not notable to his public life, though no doubt the tabloids would think otherwise. As far as I know, he is not a LGBT advocate or anything. The only mention in the article is that he occasionally likes to have flings with men. I removed the information as it had been sourced by a deadlink and didn't meet WP:BLPCAT or WP:EGRS. Another editor challenged this, added another working cite and states my edit was vandalism. Would you say that James' sexual status and cats should be removed? Ta. Span (talk) 07:44, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Autograph as signature in infobox

I noticed this edit which adds a signature to an infobox of a living person, and it appears the signature is a newly uploaded image of an autograph. There was a discussion about this issue at Jimbo's talk which pointed to a proposal at WP:Signatures of living persons. What is current feeling on this practice? It appears the editor (Hindustanilanguage (talk · contribs)) is doing similar edits on other articles, and I will let them know about this question. Johnuniq (talk) 12:00, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

My view is that unless the signature is historically significant (the Founding Fathers, signers of the US Constitution, Elizabeth I, John Hancock etc) signatures of the living or dead serve no encyclopedic purpose whatsoever and should be removed from iboxes. In the case of living people, there are additional concerns with possible identity theft and fraud. – ukexpat (talk) 19:25, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Stephen French

This article has been the subject of an amount of unverified changes recently culminating in 2 attempts to blank the page. The author of this two blankings says he is the page subject (see this diff to my user page). It would be appear that rather than vandalism this user has real concerns but keeps adding unverified (unverifiable?) information making in one case possibly defamatory statements about witnesses in a court case (removed by me in this diff). Perhaps administrator intervention is needed to address those concerns but also to prevent defaming others? NtheP (talk) 13:54, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Freda Payne and Scherrie Payne

Most reliable sources give the birth year of Freda Payne as 1945. All sources agree that she is the older sister of Scherrie Payne, and all sources give Scherrie's year of birth as 1944. It's been pointed out that there seems to be some inconsistency here. What is the best way of resolving this? Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:37, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

I think the 1945 birth date is in error, as I just found three solid sources that say it is 1942. These sources I feel are more reliable that the ones used in the article so I feel confident in making the switch. But others may disagree so we can just start a BRD cycle if that is the case. Gamaliel (talk) 15:29, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Good - assuming your sources don't just reflect older versions of the WP page... Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:33, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

and hmmm.... Do three versions of the same bio, from the same publisher, really count as three sources? Just asking. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:37, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

I dunno. They're different works with different (but overlapping, of course) content published in different years. One or three, either way, I've found their stuff to be first rate sources. Gamaliel (talk) 15:44, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

The problem is not so much that 1945 is an "error" - it probably is - but that many normally reliable sources - here, here, and at Whitburn, Joel (1996). Top R&B/Hip-Hop Singles: 1942-1995. Record Research. p. 342., state 1945. So, there is a difference between reliable sources, with the more prevalent date of 1945 being much less likely than the less prevalent, but probably correct, date of 1942. Can we just "choose" 1942 as being more likely to be correct, even though a majority of sources give a different year? Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:50, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Just to point out that a reference added today verifying that Scherrie IS her sister, states that Scherrie, born 1944, is her 'youngest' sister'?--Egghead06 (talk) 16:32, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Normally I would agree that we can't arbitrarily pick one to go with. But given the evidence that the sister born in 1944 is the younger one and that in my opinion the 1942 sources are higher quality than the 1945 sources, I think we can make this call. But again, that's just my take on it. Gamaliel (talk) 19:17, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Jessica Straus, voice over artist

Jessica Straus (voice actress) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Hi Wiki BLP peeps:

I'm voice over artist, Jessica Straus. I love that my co-workers, and obviously, some of my well-meaning fans have been organizing and updating my Wiki page for me. I think Wiki is great and I love the support and information it provides. However, the Internet does not always have the correct information on what VO credits I've done and what I haven't done, so fans sometimes post credits that are incorrect. I finally had time to update my Wiki credits...And wanted to post most of my credits so there was no more confusion. However, I forgot to log in when I was editing in August 4, 2011, and now there is a "possible BLP issue or vandalism" tag on my first entry. Sorry, that I wasn't logged in on the first one as "loudmouthpro," but the credits I was deleting were not mine. Incorrect credits cause confusion, especially at Anime conventions.

In any case, my corrections and additions on August 4th & 5th are still visible to me, but not to the general public. How can I get my recent corrections and additions to show up when people look me up on Wiki?

Additionally, I have no idea who has control of my page edits as they have never contacted me to verify the credits. And I can't figure out how to contact them. I have to say your general instructions on the Wiki site are a little confusing...for us with everyday but not brilliant technical/Internet skills. Should I request to be in charge of the page to avoid further confusion? Please advise. And, please let me know to when my recent August 4th & 5th, 2011 posts will be seen. Thanks! Jessica Straus - loudmouthpro (wiki user name) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Loudmouthpro (talk • contribs) 23:14, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Hi. You are welcome to comment and assist in development of your article - preferably by posting here or on the article talkpage, editing it yourself is seen as a conflict of interest - serious violations of facts or vandal additions you are welcome to remove on sight. What we need to improve the article desired are WP:RS reliable support for additions and for the current content. Looking at the article - I have seen voice over people not to be really talked about and reported about in independent reliable reports about you - do you know any articles we can use to improve your article? Off2riorob (talk) 23:21, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Off2riorob has given you some excellent advice, Loudmouthpro. I've made some similar comments on your talk page. By the way, you can't "request to be in charge of the page to avoid further confusion" because no single person is in charge of any Misplaced Pages page - any page can be edited by any user in good standing, as long as they comply with our policies and guidelines. Please read about the concept we call ownership of an article, which is not allowed here. Any valid edits that you make to any article will show up almost immediately. Cullen Let's discuss it 23:47, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Eyes, please

Peggy Kleinplatz (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

We could use some eyes on Peggy Kleinplatz, ideally from people who have no idea at all who this professor is. She contacted a notable Wikipedian to have serious errors (like calling her a mere lecturer when she's actually a full, tenured professor) fixed in her BLP. As a result, he's been insulted on multiple pages by activists for sexual minorities for "belittling" the subject (by giving her correct, and much higher, job title at her request?) and even had one admin declare that he's topic banned (which WP:BAN says that no individual admin is permitted to do).

It would be great if we could get this page on several other people's watchlists. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:05, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

If I'm reading correctly, the notable Wikipedian is User:James Cantor, and the admin who seems to have purportedly topic-banned him from the Kleinplatz article did so here. I'll leave notes for these two editors at their talk pages, pointing here.Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:16, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

I left the notes. The admin is User:JzG (Guy), and this edit by the admin seems peculiar; the edit summary purports to criticize belittlement of Kleinplatz, while the actual edit demoted her from full professor to a lesser status. I guess we'll wait and see if JzG and James Cantor can shed some light on this odd situation.Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:30, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the alert on my userpage.

Yes, you are correct, Anythingyouwant. JzG/Guy's is ruling against me is somehow for "belittling" Kleinplatz, when I actually had indicated that she had attained higher rank. Moreover, all the changes I made included clear RS's for them.

This is actually the second time JzG/Guy issued a topic ban against me without justification: In the AN/I discussion that followed that time (archived here), the other editors repeatedly faulted his judgment when it came to me:

• "Admin User:DGG however seems to think that the block was unjustified" -- Tijfo098
• "Frankly, I thought the block was also unjustified." -- Atama
• "I do not see grounds" -- Collect

There are more examples, but I think the point is clear.

— James Cantor (talk) 02:49, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Well, I guess you/we could use some clarification from Guy about whether he still considers you banned from the BLP in question, and if so why. Article content may be influenced by whether you are able to edit the article and/or its talk page or not. It says at the top of this Noticeboard, "Note that edits by the subject of an article may be welcome in some cases." The subject of this particular article seems to have an injury that prevents typing, and has designated you as an agent.Anythingyouwant (talk) 03:27, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't know if this is the appropriate forum for this but I'd like to add that the most disturbing aspect of this whole exchange for me was the email that bittergrey sent to Kleinplatz. This type of behaviour if tolerated inclines me to leave[REDACTED] as it indicates a very troubling tendency to escalate the stakes by making serious allegations about someone's behaviour to a colleague. I think that this could have had very serious repercussions if Kleinplatz had chosen or was inclined to react differently. Certainly, if I had received such an email stating that someone working in my field was defaming me in a public forum I can't say that I would have retained my cool. FiachraByrne (talk) 04:34, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

From: Peggy Kleinplatz

Sent: August 4, 2011 9:51 PM

To: info-en-q@wikimedia.org

Cc: James Cantor

Subject: Problem in an article about me

Dear Editors,

I have just received the email message below which includes links for

your information. I did not know if it was legitimate so I am

contacting you directly. The message from "Grey" asks if I had

contacted Dr. James Cantor to ask him to make edits to the Misplaced Pages

page about me. Yes, I did contact him. There had been errors of fact

about me in the existing article. For example, I was listed as an

Associate Professor whereas I am actually a full Professor.

I have a permanent hand injury which makes all computer use

prohibitively painful for me. Dr. Cantor was willing to fix the

errors as a favour to me. Please allow his edits to stand, with my

appreciation. His edits in no way "belittle" me. There is no conflict

of interest.

Sincerely,

Peggy J. Kleinplatz, Ph.D.

Professor

Faculty of Medicine

and

Clinical Professor

School of Psychology

University of Ottawa

>From: grey <bittergrey@infantilism.org>

>To: kleinpla@uottawa.ca

>Subject: Are you requesting edits to your Misplaced Pages page?

>

>Dear Dr. Kleinplatz,

>

>Sorry to bother you, but I was hoping to check something.

>

>Recently, James Cantor has made some edits to your biography on

>Misplaced Pages. He has a long history of using Misplaced Pages to promote

>his own interests and those of his colleagues, as well as to demote

>competitors and competing views. Another editor quickly reverted

>the changes, noting that "The changes appear to belittle the

>subject. The editor has a in this area."

>

>James Cantor is claiming that you called him and requested those

>changes. Given what he has tried to pull in the past on

>Misplaced Pages, few trust him. I was hoping to check with you and find

>out the truth.

>

>Sincerely,

>~Grey

>

>

>http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Peggy_Kleinplatz&action=historysubmit&diff=443065468&oldid=428041914

>

>http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Peggy_Kleinplatz&diff=443077415&oldid=443070535

1. Caputo, Michael R. (2004-07-13). "Same Old Ruthless Russia". washingtonpost.com. The Washington Post Company. p. A15. Retrieved 2007-05-31.
2. Cite error: The named reference Godfather was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

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