Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 18:08, 22 July 2004

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Again, welcome! - UtherSRG 20:11, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Sathya Sai Baba

• Hi. I would be interested to have some private email communication with you about the "teacher" Sai Baba and some other spiritual topics. my email is optim81@yahoo.co.uk - I am waiting for email from you, it would be helpful for me if you could use the word "Sai Baba" in the email subject. Thanks! Optim 10:20, 24 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Brianism

The vote to delete Brianism failed. Please do not remove Brianism related links. - UtherSRG 19:31, 24 Jan 2004 (PST)

Of course, Brianism has the right to exist but it should be linked to in the appropriate places and this is in parody religion. I will have a very critical look at the other links to Brianism because it seems that some people want to advertize this internet hobby and social club by linking it in many place.

Andries

To do a redirect: #REDIRECT ] . Have nothing else on the page apart from that and it will work. Secretlondon 19:43, Jan 26, 2004 (UTC)

What mistakes? The ones listed seem either untrue or irrelevent. Skeptics don't accept a theory immediately even if it's true-- that's because THEY DON'T KNOW IF IT IS TRUE! No mistake was made-- they just waited until they saw enough evidence of it. If you have seen my revision of the page (check the history) you will see that I am much more accurate. - Lord Kenneth 20:35, Jan 30, 2004 (UTC)

Hello Andries, I've noticed that you've already made 16 edits within 1 hour on the Sathya_Sai_Baba article. Please use the "Show Preview" button while editing and the "Save" button once you feel you have done with enough changes. Every Save you make is recorded, too many Saves fills up the history and makes change tracking very difficult. Jay 11:05, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Thank you ! There's a lot of Hinduism related articles you can work on. Many of them are one-liners currently. Jay 11:52, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Greetings Andries,

Thank you for the email, I do agree with you. I have spent some time researching the issue, and will now distill the reports I have and post them. Our correspondant may not want to allow the page to stand, but we can then go to arbitration, as I have had to on similar issues (see Menachem Mendel Schneerson).

Regards, Fire Star 15:39, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Cult wiki removal

Davodd, why did u remove the cult wiki without mentioning any reason from guru and mind control ? I find it a helpful list to organize the many articles about the subject.Andries 10:53, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I removed the MSG because neither article is primarily about cults. And placing the MSG on Guru is inherently POV since it is not placed on Priest. I thought I had added the comment, but the edit must not have saved. Thanks for pointing that out. Davodd 10:59, Mar 13, 2004 (UTC)

Why did you remove the MediaWiki msg from Aum Shinrikyo? Kent Wang 22:10, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Template:Cults

ccording to your expressed desire, I just created Template:Cults. Its existence allows one to insert

(without the space between "s" and "}" to insert the table of related topics. Please feel free to edit Template:Cults as well. Luis Dantas

Hello Andries. I got your message on my talk page. Help me understand what the Template:Cults page is about. What is the intended purpose? Where do you expect that it will be linked? I do understand that the purpose is to have articles about all kinds of religions, not just the mainstream ones. However "cult" in English means nothing more than "a religion which most people don't like". This is unfortunate. Is there a different word or phrase that we could use instead of "cult" ? Happy editing, Wile E. Heresiarch 00:46, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

No, there must be an article about cult in wikipedia. Andries 18:21, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The wikimedia cults will refer to all articles that are essential to understand cults. I think these are Cult of personality, Propaganda , Fundamentalism , Guru Shepherding, Communal reinforcement. It will be added as a footer to all the articles that deal primarily with cults i.e. Cult , Purported cults, Christian countercult movement , Anti-cult movement , Exit counseling , Thought reform , Deprogramming , Mind control & Brainwashing The difference between a See also list is that the wikimedia cults refers to essential articles. The See also list will also refer to side issues. Andries 18:58, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Andries, I've reviewed some of the articles listed in the Template:Cults and I have decided to let my vote stand. I want WP to be authoritative, and if WP uses "cult" to mean "religions that some people don't like" it will only reinforce a mistaken concept. I know that there are already many uses of "cult" in that sense in WP. I'm too lazy to try to fix them all; at this point I just want to avoid propagating the term further. I don't really know a good substitute; "minor religions", maybe? Or why not just be completely honest and use "religions that some people don't like". Just thinking out loud. Happy editing, Wile E. Heresiarch 03:37, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Sorry. I don't know enough about the issue Hawstom 15:21, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC).

Article Guru in German-Wiki

Hi Andries,

if you want, you can write an article about Guru in the German-Misplaced Pages and put it in . I would correct your mistakes and put the article in. If you forgot, you put it in . Sorry for my English. Thanks --213.103.158.86 18:40, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC) Breeze

Talk:Untermensch

I replied to you there. I am intensely well read/interested in Sanatana Dharma, as well as a number of related subjects, and seeing your interest on your user page, I would welcome any discussion relating to these matters. I have been involved in a signifigant rewrite of Hinduism along w a number of other hindu/buddhist related pages explaining religious terms, etc... Feel free to bring up most anything, I am particularly welcoming of discussion. Sam Spade 19:34, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Sathya Sai Baba

I havn't read it yet, and I will read it, but I wanted to tell you that I exploded with laughter as soon as I opened the page. I have seen this guy before, and always in negative contexts. Also, his hair is a great source of amusement for me. Anyhow I will read the page and give you more substantial feedback next time ;) Sam Spade 21:45, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Amazingly NPOV. I am very impressed with your impartiality, and the thoroughness, this is really a very fine article. You are clearly a solid editor to be able to edit something this close to you so well. Many people tell me (or show me by their POV edits) that they are unable to edit on articles close to them personally. I'd be interested in discussing theology with you some time, this is an article I have written (Pantheism).

I agree, I've seen Andries single-handedly change the page from a stub, I've tried hard to spot and remove POVs but not succeeded yet ! Jay 09:37, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for your compliments. I think the main reasons why I was able to write a NPOV article on this subject in which I was so intensely emotionally involved it that it is now several years that I became an ex-follower. Secondly I still have a intellectual interest in the subject and thirdly it bothers me to read some articles that state that believers in SSB are blind and stupid quote from salon.com about SSB "No matter -- in this part of the world, faith is absolute. Believers don't refuse God, and they don't question him.". I think this is one sided and unfair and I feel vicariously insulted when I read it so I want to show the skeptical, objective readers the other side of the story. Andries 10:53, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

____

Thanks for your note Andries about fundamentalism, good to know I am not alone on this idea! Is the Dutch version of fundamentalism still not good? Sorry my knowledge of Dutch is almost nil, otherwise I would try to help you with it.

TonyClarke 12:10, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Patience

I may be proven naive; but, I think that the problem you pointed out will eventually resolve itself. Over time, I expect that the blemishes will fade from the article. Because they lack support sufficient to be credible, they will eventually be removed without initiating a formal arbitration process, and without either your or my involvement. I'm thinking that I would prefer to be patient and let the process work. Mkmcconn 22:20, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Evidentialism

Andries -- I'm sorry, but I don't know anything about evidentialism. Could you give me a little background information? — Adam Conover † 20:21, Apr 8, 2004 (UTC)

I gave it a shot. Mkmcconn — 20:49, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Thanks. Andries 21:57, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Please see the talk of that page. Mkmcconn — 23:06, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Ubermensch

Hey, didn't mean to cut you down in the talk page - sorry if it came across that way. Its just so common for people to want to insert some connection between Nietzsche and the Nazis in his various articles, or in debates in general, and I think I'm starting to lose patience with it. I think that it would be worthwhile to have a section on the Ubermensch page about the Nazi interpretation of the Ubermensch, if you wanted to work on that - I'm no Nazi history expert, so I don't think I'd do a very good job, but I might be able to help integrate it with what I know about Nietzsche. -Seth Mahoney 18:08, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

It should be written including his sister Elisabeth Förster-Nietzsche. I just read about it in the public libary. Andries 18:22, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

Definately. I don't think the one sentence about her toward the end tells the whole story. She should probably have her own article as well, considering the effect she has had on many people's interpretation of Nietzsche. -Seth Mahoney 18:25, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

Nazism/China

I replaced the info, but I am of course open to discussing/editing it. I actually find striking simularities between nazism and chinese communism, this only being one. In any case I feel the article is much worse, actually misleading, w/o a mention of this. I placed a statement on Talk:Nazism. Sam 21:51, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

Belgium/Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates

I promoted the article to featured since it's been there for over a week. Thanks for the comment. Fredrik 13:53, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

A Course in Miracles

Andries, thank you for your kind note on the A Course in Miracles article. I liked your stub and although you have said you are a skeptic I thought the stub had nice NPOV. I wrote the article from the background of being an ACIM adherent, and I hope the POV has remained sufficiently neutral.

I hope you don't mind me removing the second paragraph, but I think all of its content has been included in the expanded version.

Thank you also for your suggestions. The followers of ACIM are worldwide, and I will mention that. The controversial cult in Wisconsin should probably also be included in the future, but that is beyond my scope at the moment, because I am very new to Misplaced Pages, and am currently just trying to do a general overview. The Wisconsin organization is part of a very large and controversial (though fascinating in its own way) subtopic. In fact, I bet we will find that what I have already written will be considered controversial when other ACIM students start to review it. We will see. Thanks again! Gary D 18:12, 17 May 2004 (UTC)

Saw your recent wikification. I had been wondering myself about whether to link to Columbia University and psychiatry, but as I've said, I'm very new to this, and wasn't sure how far to take the whole linkage thing. Didn't think at all about the American links; ethnocentrism, I suppose. Thanks for those. Gary D 22:38, 17 May 2004 (UTC)

Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Misplaced Pages:Featured_article_candidates&action=edit&section=14 Thanks.172 12:35, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick response. Also, thanks for your much-needed copyedits of the article. 172 11:18, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

The personality cult is covered in the section on "Saddam Hussein as a secular leader." BTW, we could write a separate article about his personality cult and pick up where the article leaves off. Would you be interested? 172 11:55, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

New category for New Age?

Hey, Andries, I know you hate the term, but what do you think about establishing a "New Age" or similar category for collecting all the nineteenth & twentieth century religious stuff? We could call the category "New Religious Movements" as an alternative, I suppose. I'm just looking for a way to pull all that stuff together in a category, but broader than and without the baggage of the "cult" category. What do you think? --Gary D 08:02, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

yes, there should be some list or category but I don't know what or how yet. (list of new age subjects?)By the way this is my addition to the New Age article and my personal opinion " Others think that the classification of beliefs and movements under New Age has little added value due to the vagueness of the term. Instead, they prefer to refer directly to the individual beliefs and movements. " Andries 20:19, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I think a category rather than a list. A category will help users "drilling down" from the main page who want to get their hands around "recent religious happenings." I agree that this proposed category is very diverse, even vague, and its boundaries are amorphous. However, there is definitely a particular phenomenon that people are pointing to when someone says, "New Age" or "modern spirituality." I bet if you and I were given a list of ten random topics, we would agree on whether eight or nine out of the ten either were or were not within this phoenomenon. (For instance, I think it could be generally said that this phenomenon more or less started about the time of the Fox sisters and spiritualism in the nineteenth century.) It is this fairly definite phenomenon that I am proposing to tie down with a category. The label of the category isn't crucial for me, so if the phrase "New Age" is problematic, some other label will do just as well.

Without seeming overly simplistic I believe New Age is a category in & of itself. Some of us have heard the phrase "New Age spin". At the very least New Age is a modifier, or adjective, for a large number of topics. It is real, it is here, and it won't go away if we pretend it shouldn't be around. Category: New Age. Hmmm.. it was right there in front of us all the time ;-) BF 01:02, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Andries, this could be a groundswell of support (well, two of us, anyways). But I would still rather have your blessing before proceeding to create it. Category:New Age -- what do you think? --Gary D 02:15, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Well, yes, I am afraid that there should be a category New age. Quite ironic that I am asked to give a blessing because I am the one in Misplaced Pages who opposes the term the most. Andries 09:41, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

That is precisely why I asked you. --Gary D 18:55, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

User BF, by the way, is the main author of the well written article about New Age. Andries 09:41, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Andries, I have created Category:New religious movements. Could you go to its talk page and dialogue with Sam Spade, who is leaning toward "New Age" for this category? Thanks. --Gary D 01:10, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I see you have begun work on the "New Age" category. I have now joined in. We'll see how this works out in terms of breadth of scope, and how it interacts with the "New religious movements" category. Onward! --Gary D 07:57, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Sathya Sai Baba revisited

Hi Andres. While I agree that User:Freelanceresearch is almost certainly the same person as User:209.240.205.63, I think it's important to at least give a new user the benefit of the doubt. I got an edit conflict, so I stuck in my "nice" request and welcome message above your note. You might consider removing it or toning it down, but it's your choice. I personally feel it's important to avoid "biting the newbies". And also, I doubt that the account or the IP will be blocked without some broader discussion. I'd recommend listing Talk:Sathya Sai Baba on Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment. Thanks, BCorr|Брайен 21:07, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

thanks for your help. I have been very liberal with undocumented edits on this article but I find these latest edits slanderous and irrelevant. They are ad hominem attack against the critics of SSB that don't belong in a serious article. I don't think that discussion in this case with this person helps to come closer. I know this person from yahoo group sathya sai baba. I will do my best to do tone it down but I am very pessimistic. Andries 21:14, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I understand -- and thanks for letting me know you've deal with this person before. I will continue to assume good faith as long as I can. ;-) BCorr|Брайен 22:00, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Hallo Andries, ik lees dat je liever hier werkt, maar toch een welkom als medenederlander. Groeten, Ellywa 09:51, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC) (meestal op NL)

Maharaji

Hey, Andries, you might want to take a look at the material recently contributed by User 24.69.61.197 on the Maharaji page. It has now been reverted as "vandalism" but, while some of it is pretty POV, I don't think this material was vandalism. You may want to take a look at it to see if some of the more NPOV factual stuff within this material should be retained in the article. --Gary D 01:32, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Ed, yes, Jossifresco was quite a newbie but he knew exactly what he was doing when he repeatedly remove relevant documented facts from the Maharaji article to present a whitewashed picture of Maharaji/Prem Rawat. How can an administrator allow that? How can Misplaced Pages ever become a good encyclopedia if users are allowed to do this? Andries 16:42, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Andries... please relax... First I only did that once (never again...!). Secondly I have backed-off from touching that page, only monitoring for vandalism. Other editors are doing a pretty god job on NPOV without my help. I am too vested... And thirdly, it will really help everyone if you stop cavorting and colluding with the ex-followers, to push their POV and to ban me anmd . Your accussations border on the histerical. --jossi 17:11, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Re: Reliability of the information of ex-members of purported cults

Hello. Sorry to have upset you. I might not have said what I meant properly. I did not mean to emphasize the point that they were ex members, but that the list itself seemed biased. Basically what I meant to say was not that their claims were invalid, but that the list was biased because of how few were on it, and there was no firm distinction—no encyclopedic distinction—about why the chosen cults were on the list. I used the word hearsay because no reference to confirmation was given (I don't claim that none exists). Thus, unless every cult that is accused in some way of something is on this list, there needs to be a more formal way of deciding what would be on the list. I certainly didn't mean to imply that the ex members were giving flawed information. —siroχo 10:18, Jul 4, 2004 (UTC)

YOU DON'T HAVE A RIGHT TO TELL ME WHAT TO DO. Get off my back.--jossi 18:00, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Sincere apologies for my barking... sometimes I get quite upset when people judge me without knowing anything about me, or when they patronize me.--jossi 21:27, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages does not allow you to write articles that are propaganda. Please follow not only the guidelines but also try to be reasonable. Andries 18:14, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Exactly. Try and tell this to the apostates.

Your behavious is abhorrent

Your behaviour in editing the Maharaji page is abhorrent. It shows bias, and contempt for this Encyclopedia. Taking sides with ex-followers of Maharaji, cavorting with them and making fun of my views, and at the same time claim that you are a Misplaced Pages editor with neutrality as his aim is *** and ***.

Sincere apology

I cannot believe that I was so upset at you to write what I wrote above. Don't know if you will accet it, but here it is: My sincere apologies for these comments. Hope we can put this aside and continue working in this project.

I took a step back from getting involved in the editing of te page (just monitoring vandalism) and I am very impressed with the way the article on Maharaji is evolving. I still cringe about some of the stuff written there, but as long it is properly referenced and source quites I think it works.

I would just suggest if you could keep away from getting involved with the ex-followers. Some of them can be quite aggressive and obtuse, and find pleasure in vandalizing and blasphemy. It also doesn't add to your stature as an editor specialized in NRMs as I see you are. --jossi 06:11, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Quite a nice apology; you are a credit to your spiritual path, jossi. I have been involved with other stuff and haven't had the time and energy to tackle a full project lately, so I haven't done anything with Maharaji, but I guess you, Andries, and everyone are getting it worked out just fine. Andries also gave me some Maharaji stuff to look at. I tell you what, if you care to identify the stuff that still makes you cringe, I would be happy to look at those items specifically and give my thoughts. Whatever you like. --Gary D 23:00, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Nazi mysticism

I am interested in why you don't agree that Nazism had a basis in mysticism? I find the subject fascinating, and would love to discuss it. The eveidence is overwhelming and obvious to me, but clearly you see things differently? Lets come to some sort of mutual understanding, please :) Sam 19:33, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Can we please discuss why your POV is so extreme in this area? Sam 18:08, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)