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faq page Frequently asked questions (see also: Barack Obama FAQ) Q1: Isn't the use of the terms "conspiracy theories" and "fringe" in the article title and body a violation of Misplaced Pages's policy on neutrality? A1: No. A preponderance of reliable sources have treated and referred to the topic as a fringe conspiracy theory, rather than a legitimate controversy. The article reflects these sources as per Misplaced Pages's policy of verifiability. Consensus on the article title has been established through a RFC and has been repeatedly reaffirmed since. Q2: What about the word "false" or "falsely"? Is it appropriate for a Misplaced Pages article to state that claims are false? A2: Yes. Misplaced Pages policy is that fringe theories should not be given undue weight. Presenting a fringe theory as an unchallenged possibility gives undue credence to that theory. ("...we should not describe these two opposing viewpoints as being equal to each other ... for instance, forms of historical revisionism that are considered by more reliable sources to either lack evidence or actively ignore evidence.") Q3: Can we discuss renaming the article or removing the "fringe" or "false" labeling? A3: Yes. Consensus can change, so new perspective on this issue is welcome, but please do not rehash old arguments. Please review the archives to see past discussions on this topic, and keep in mind Misplaced Pages policies and reliable sources when you frame your discussion. Q4: The Certification of Live Birth isn't a Birth Certificate, is it? A4: Hawaii has never issued a document with the title "Birth Certificate". Instead, their certificate is titled, "Certification Of Live Birth". The law stipulates that it fulfills all of the functions for which anyone needs a birth certificate. It is therefore misleading to suggest that it is somehow not a birth certificate.

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

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Legal status

There are a number of headlines here but only a fraction relate to the legal status of the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.239.44.25 (talk) 06:31, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Please explain what you mean by this sentence. It makes no sense to me, since our articles have no "legal status". --Orange Mike | Talk 14:18, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages....a suppository (sic) for people who need a soap box

This is just another article that is nothing more than a dumping ground for rubbish. All it does is list every rumor or supposition suggesting Obama is not the man to be president of the United States. This article shows why the Misplaced Pages model is so flawed: foot-fall equals notability. No it doesn't. Just like the crap contained in the Moon landing conspiracy theories, this article only lists what whack jobs want people to know, with rebuttals. This article should just note that there are those who have an agenda to prove that Obama was not born in USA. Why on earth it should then list in minutiae every fantasy is beyond me? .... Oh wait a minute it's because so many people think it, proving once again the misnomer of naming Wikipeida as an encylopedia. It's nothing of the sort, it's just a repository for published facts, but facts that are numerous. There is no analysis, only narrative. They said, he said, she said et al. Yet this article fails because it does not appreciate the philosophical concept of Russell's teapot: those who make the claims have the burden of proof to prove what they are saying not shift that onus to others.

This article just lists what the whack jobs are saying, then spins it around with the rebuttal, er "none of that is true because...". This is ridiculous, the article should assume the burden of proof lies with those making the claims not for the US president to defend such claims. The fact that this talkpage has 16 pages of archive demonstrates how much people want to fantasise about this. It is all fantasy because there is nothing except people saying it that Obama was born anywhere else but Hawaii. Besides who could be remotely interested in this anyway unless it has something to do with WP:soapbox? I base my point on the issue that this is such a mundane technicality, because he was raised and lived in the USA for his entire life, anyway. (Jesus was born in a stable, does that make Him a horse?) Likewise there is no discussion of the issue at hand, only the fantasy claims. Where is the encyclopedic critique? Article 2, which the birthers are using for Obama's annulment, was a caveat created by the Whigs to stop closet 18th-century loyalists bringing in a pro-British leader who might "vote" the USA out of independence and back into the British Empire, or worst still the French outremer! Like any written constitution its purpose was for another time and place. However like any absolutes in a world of change, it's real meaning is lost to a new generation. Only the words remain and they are reinterpreted (for the cinematic meaning of what I just said watch Memento). Just like the right to bare arms, in the 2nd amendment, an 18th century proviso for a frontier land. It was never meant to mean automatic weapons in the 21st century. But trying to telling that to the NRA!

This article just demonstrates how the Misplaced Pages model for open source material is not dictated by the quality of the argument or the available information. No, at all. It is solely based on the numbers of interested parties regardless of whether it is tripe or not! It is also let down by the notion of consensus. This method relies on the lowest common denominator. Just like democracy: it's a system where two idiots can always out vote a genius. On Misplaced Pages that means a single voice of reason violates original research and self publishing, whereas the "less-than-able" can spend hours and hours of their lives creating articles like this. All based on assumptions that have no more basis in fact than Pastafarianism.

I would be naive to say I will expect to see any change here, or a sense of rationality, because that is not Misplaced Pages's way. Once a popular soapbox article is created its keepers/guardians will spend the remainders of their lives (or until one edit war too many drives them away licking their wounds) doing their upmost to keep their invested agenda alive. It's sad really because this just shows that truth is not what the facts say, it's what the you want.

Think about it...

Josh T 109.156.28.178 (talk) 13:05, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Don't hurt yourself coming down off of that soapbox. You are correct though, but it's something that will probably always be a limitation of WP because of the nature of the project. Sometimes you have to take the good with the bad. Ravensfire (talk) 15:36, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

As I relate above, this article set me down the path to changing my mind about the issue. Cygdrive (talk) 23:56, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Campaigners and proponents

For an overseas perspective, there are notable individuals, such as Lord Christopher Monckton, a politician and former advisor to British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, who assert that Obama's birth certificate is a forgery. Is this worth a single line of text, noting these theories have gained traction further afield? — ThePowerofX 15:03, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

I see no problem with adding Monckton to the list of proponents. --Weazie (talk) 16:53, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

But it should be noted that Monckton is, well, Monckton: not exactly considered a rational voice on much of anything; he's too conservative even for a lot of the Tories! --Orange Mike | Talk 17:30, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Orange Mike, how is an ad hominem justification within an encyclopedia? ThePowerofX, no need to ask for permission, be bold and write in what you have as long as you've got references. - Gunnanmon (talk) 05:36, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

I didn't say we shouldn't list him among the proponents. I just wanted to caution anybody not familiar with his checkered record to look at his record before thinking that because Monckton believes it means that anybody else outside the U.S. took the whole thing seriously. --Orange Mike | Talk 19:29, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Paula Jean Little

Arguments based on the internet image of the Hawaiian birth certificates

I am very angry that busybodies deleted my contribution about the fact that the Hawaiian b/cs were printed, as required by federal law, on tamper-proof security paper -- and how that security paper could have contributed to the Photoshop anomalies that led amateurs to think that that the Hawaiian b/cs were faked. My stuff was deleted within seconds of my writing it, and when I came back five minutes later with reference citations, it was gone. Let someone else do the heavy lifting then, or leave an important issue unaddressed. Sussmanbern (talk) 01:44, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

If you can't be bothered to find a decent reliable source other than some blog, then it needs to stay out. Your complaining about people actually insisting on sources, not some utter crap like you've tried to use won't help. If it's important, it's going to be in a reliable source. If it's just in blogs, it's basically at the same level at the birthers. Ravensfire (talk) 01:51, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Quite apart from that, the rest of what was added about security paper is original research. The cite given says nothing about Obama's birth certificate, so it is the contributing editor's own analysis that what it says is of any relevance. I don't know what the blog references removed had to say to make the connection, but as noted above, they're not reliable sources anyway. If you wish to add this you need a reliable source that discusses security paper specifically in relation to Obama's birth certificate. Misplaced Pages cannot be the one making the connection between the two. --Escape Orbit 11:03, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

¶ I am still cranked about this. Non-blog sources have very little directly addressing this matter, but various people with expertise in matters of Photoshop vs. security paper have offered explanations on blogs, frequently with extensive explanations that clarify the technical details. The end result is that the use of the federally-required security paper for Obama's b/c causes the anomalous Photoshop readings which, in turn, are the mainstay of the accusations being peddled by Orly Taitz, Jerome Corsi, Joe Arpaio, and others. Sussmanbern (talk) 15:16, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Please read the policy on reliable sources. I understand your frustration, but except in very narrow circumstances are blogs allowed to be used as sources on Misplaced Pages. I've had more than a few articles where I've had to not put in information I thought was relevant and helpful because I could only find blog sources. Ravensfire (talk) 15:23, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

In the subsection "Rejection by conspiracy theorists", there is already mention of the Photoshop-like anomaly issue — sourced to a "blog" entry by Nathan Goulding of the National Review. This source is, in my opinion, acceptable per WP:NEWSBLOG, since Goulding is a high-ranking National Review executive, and the comment in question is attributed to Goulding personally and not to National Review. To be sure, this source does not say anything specifically about tamper-proof security paper — rather, it suggests the anomalous layers can happen simply due to OCR being active during the scanning process. — Richwales 19:25, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Obama's Literary Agent in 1991 Booklet: 'Born in Kenya and raised in Indonesia and Hawaii'

The advertising for Obama's autobiography states that he was born in Kenya

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/05/17/The-Vetting-Barack-Obama-Literary-Agent-1991-Born-in-Kenya-Raised-Indonesia-Hawaii

This is notable enough that it deserves to be included in the article.

Toot toot hey beep beep (talk) 20:24, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Nothing there worth including. For what it's worth, if we found a third party source to establish that contributor Larry O'Connor and whoever is is operating Breitbart's site now are birthers, it might belong on a breitbart-related article. They're not notable so they don't belong on the list of prominent birthers in this article. - Wikidemon (talk) 20:54, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

I just googled and got these other sources:

http://www.wtam.com/cc-common/news/sections/newsarticle.html?feed=104668&article=10134429

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2146034/Obama-born-Kenya-raised-Indonesia-Hawaii-Presidents-literary-agency-promotional-booklet-1991-claims-WAS-born-Africa.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

http://dailycaller.com/2012/05/17/literary-agents-1991-catalog-surfaces-with-claim-obama-was-born-in-kenya/

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=51570

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/media/228157-new-report-of-obamas-birth-in-kenya

Toot toot hey beep beep (talk) 21:25, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. At least one of those and probably more are reliable sources. If this latest wrinkle becomes a big deal then it may become part of the ongoing conspiracy theory story. We probably won't know for a few days. - Wikidemon (talk) 21:38, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Here's more. I suppose we'll have to wail until a better source confirms this to cite it in the article, but that shouldn't take very long:

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/05/17/Obama-pamphlet-in-use-2007

"According to archive.org, a website that caches websites on a regular basis, the Dystel.com website – the official website for Dystel & Goderich, Obama’s literary agents – was using the Barack Obama “born in Kenya” language until April 2007, just two months after then-Senator Obama declared his campaign for the presidency."

Toot toot hey beep beep (talk) 21:46, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

From the internet archive of his publisher from 2007:

http://wayback.archive.org/web/jsp/Interstitial.jsp?seconds=5&date=1175626801000&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dystel.com%2Fclientlist.html&target=http%3A%2F%2Fweb.archive.org%2Fweb%2F20070403190001%2Fhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.dystel.com%2Fclientlist.html

Welcome to Wayback.

Loading...

http://www.dystel.com/clientlist.html

as close to the date:

19:00:01 Apr 3, 2007

as is available.. http://web.archive.org/web/20070403190001/http://www.dystel.com/clientlist.html

BARACK OBAMA is the junior Democratic senator from Illinois and was the dynamic keynote speaker at the 2004 Democratic National Convention. He was also the first African-American president of the Harvard Law Review. He was born in Kenya to an American anthropologist and a Kenyan finance minister and was raised in Indonesia, Hawaii, and Chicago. His first book, DREAMS FROM MY FATHER: A STORY OF RACE AND INHERITANCE, has been a long time New York Times bestseller.

Toot toot hey beep beep (talk) 22:17, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

The blurb's statement regarding birth in Kenya was incorrect: http://politicalwire.com/archives/2012/05/17/literary_agent_says_1991_booklet_was_a_mistake.html

If it was a "mistake," then why did Obama's own publisher continue to make the same "mistake" for the next 16 years? Toot toot hey beep beep (talk) 22:32, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Well, just like I said, it didn't take long at all for a better source to confirm that his publisher kept saying that he was born in Kenya all the way until 2007:

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/born-kenya-obamas-literary-agent-misidentified-birthplace-1991/story?id=16372566

In a follow-up post, Breitbart.com noted that Obama was listed as being born in Kenya on the Dyster & Goderich website until April 2007, "just two months after then-Senator Obama declared his campaign for the presidency."

Toot toot hey beep beep (talk) 22:30, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

There you go. It seems to be a "former literary agent", not his publisher. My guess is that this won't convince anyone he was actually born in Kenya who doesn't believe that already, but there will be some people concerned over whether he created, allowed, or negligently ignored a misstatement made by his agent and why. Looking to the wayback machine ourselves is a good way to confirm what the news says, but we can't use the results of our own digging as verification, that's WP:OR (our independent research on what the wayback machine says). But anyway, there are reliable sources reporting on what the wayback machine says so we don't have to cite ourselves here. I still think it's going to be several days at least before we have any idea where this story is going to go. BTW, I'll save the usual scolding and suspicion of brand new accounts who post anti-Obama stuff because: (1) you seem to be right on this, and (2) cool account name. - Wikidemon (talk) 23:24, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! I really liked that handle - it's too bad they blocked it. A mod posted a "welcome" message on my talk page, and then the same mod blocked me - what a sneaky thing to do! Well, anyway, here is another source that says they kept saying Obama was born in Kenya all the way until 2007 - right up until the time Obama decided to run for President. That's quite a "mistake" to keep doing it for 16 years! http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timstanley/100158834/obama-used-to-be-a-kenyan/ QfB6Kqqd5u (talk) 01:15, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

1. Bobo, Jeff (6 May 2011). "Hawkins Woman Claims to Be President, Awaiting Kid Rock"]. TimesNews.net. Retrieved 1 April 2012. {{cite web}}: Check |url= value (help)

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