Misplaced Pages

Talk:Houla massacre: Difference between revisions

Article snapshot taken from[REDACTED] with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
Browse history interactively← Previous editNext edit →Content deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 19:00, 30 May 2012 edit70.71.17.180 (talk)No edit summary← Previous edit Revision as of 19:00, 30 May 2012 edit undoSineBot (talk | contribs)Bots2,556,669 editsm Signing comment by 70.71.17.180 - "→Inconsistencies: new section"Next edit →
Line 154: Line 154:
I'm a bit wary of this initial sentence in the Background section. I've glanced at the three articles that are linked and they seem to support this statement, however, I have not investigated the references in those articles to establish whether this is the final verdict or "merely" the majority opinion or mainstream media consensus. Have those articles been subjected to the same level of NPOV enforcement as we have hopefully managed with the present article? In any case, using other Misplaced Pages articles as references is in itself inadmissible, so we should do something quickly about this matter. __] (]) 18:18, 30 May 2012 (UTC) I'm a bit wary of this initial sentence in the Background section. I've glanced at the three articles that are linked and they seem to support this statement, however, I have not investigated the references in those articles to establish whether this is the final verdict or "merely" the majority opinion or mainstream media consensus. Have those articles been subjected to the same level of NPOV enforcement as we have hopefully managed with the present article? In any case, using other Misplaced Pages articles as references is in itself inadmissible, so we should do something quickly about this matter. __] (]) 18:18, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
:I've been complaining about that paragraph on this page for days. =) I agree that it's needlessly prejudicial. BBC, Al Jazeera, and other reliable sources are not discussing this in terms of a 10- to 20-year "history of committing massacres" (though they are putting it in the context of the war's violence). Even the sentence on previous Houla violence seems shaky to me--if this is importnat background, why has it been mentioned by zero news organizations with reference to the massacre? A better background section to my mind would have a few sentences describing the origins of the civil war, and its previous violence, per a reliable source that is ''discussing the Houla massacre'' directly. In either case, though, I agree that "history of massacres" has to go. ] (]) 18:30, 30 May 2012 (UTC) :I've been complaining about that paragraph on this page for days. =) I agree that it's needlessly prejudicial. BBC, Al Jazeera, and other reliable sources are not discussing this in terms of a 10- to 20-year "history of committing massacres" (though they are putting it in the context of the war's violence). Even the sentence on previous Houla violence seems shaky to me--if this is importnat background, why has it been mentioned by zero news organizations with reference to the massacre? A better background section to my mind would have a few sentences describing the origins of the civil war, and its previous violence, per a reliable source that is ''discussing the Houla massacre'' directly. In either case, though, I agree that "history of massacres" has to go. ] (]) 18:30, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

I absolutely agree, the POV of this statement is ridiculous and not in any way constructive to a neutral article. Let's have a vote shall we?



== Inconsistencies == == Inconsistencies ==
Line 164: Line 161:
According to Al Jazeera's correspondent Hadi al-Abdallah, the Free Syrian Army had gained control of the town of Houla, and it became a hub for opposition militants. The Syrian Army was unable to enter the town, forcing them to shell it from a distance.<ref name=AJ526/> According to Al Jazeera's correspondent Hadi al-Abdallah, the Free Syrian Army had gained control of the town of Houla, and it became a hub for opposition militants. The Syrian Army was unable to enter the town, forcing them to shell it from a distance.<ref name=AJ526/>


I thought those massacred were stabbed and shot from close range. Why the contradiction? I thought those massacred were stabbed and shot from close range. Why the contradiction? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 18:59, 30 May 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Revision as of 19:00, 30 May 2012

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconHuman rights Low‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Human rights, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Human rights on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Human rightsWikipedia:WikiProject Human rightsTemplate:WikiProject Human rightsHuman rights
LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconMilitary history: Middle East
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history
B checklist
This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
  1. Referencing and citation: criterion met
  2. Coverage and accuracy: criterion not met
  3. Structure: criterion met
  4. Grammar and style: criterion met
  5. Supporting materials: criterion met
Associated task forces:
/ 
Taskforce icon
Middle Eastern military history task force
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconSyria High‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Syria, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Syria on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SyriaWikipedia:WikiProject SyriaTemplate:WikiProject SyriaSyria
HighThis article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconCrime and Criminal Biography: Terrorism
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related
???This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by the Terrorism task force (assessed as Low-importance).
In the newsA news item involving Houla massacre was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the In the news section on 27 May 2012.
[REDACTED]
Misplaced Pages
In the newsA news item involving Houla massacre was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the In the news section on 30 May 2012.
[REDACTED]
Misplaced Pages

Has the UN really said that?

An article published by Euronews states "While Syrian state TV blamed 'armed terrorist gangs', a spokesman for UN chief Ban Ki-moon and international envoy Kofi Annan accused the Syrian government of carrying out a 'brutal' breach of international law." This wording looks to me suspiciously like the the news outlet is conflating reactions to the massacre with statements given by the two top UN officials prior to the attacks. We should remember that Ban ki-Moon gave a statement to that effect on the day of the massacre, i.e. prior to knowledge of the massacre. If this new position from the UN can be corroborated by other sources, fine, but if not, perhaps we should take our precautions with respect to the real possibility that the Euronews article is fudging this issue? __meco (talk) 10:41, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

As more news outlets are reporting this I'm more inclined to believe it to be correct, however, I would have liked seeing a reference to press conferences held by Ban and Annan, just to make sure there isn't some confusion of this issue as I explained above. __meco (talk) 13:57, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

General Mood's statements in two places

Currently Mood's statements are presented fully both in the introduction and in the Aftermath section. One place should suffice, or, the mention in the lede should be compressed significantly. __meco (talk) 13:32, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree, however I would leave it in Aftermath section rather than lede since it is significant to the rest of the section, especially UN report about how "Syrian Government immediately cease the use of heavy weapons in population centers". EllsworthSK (talk) 13:59, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
But that report surely didn't come as a result of this incident? Wasn't that the report that was published in Friday? We need clarity on this. __meco (talk) 15:11, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
Frankly, I do not know. I vaguely remember that either Mood or Ban Ki Moon said this today but I would have to re-check it. However report from NYT which is used as reference uses it in context of this massacre, not earlier events. EllsworthSK (talk) 15:13, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
Found it "This appalling and brutal crime involving indiscriminate and disproportionate use of force is a flagrant violation of international law and of the commitments of the Syrian government to cease the use of heavy weapons in population centres and violence in all its forms," said a statement issued on behalf of UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon and the Joint Special Envoy of the UN and the League of Arab States for Syria, Kofi Annan.. Therefore regarding Mood statement, it should probably stay in aftermath section and removed from lede. EllsworthSK (talk) 21:02, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

We need a better timeline

When did the shelling begin? When did the throat-cuttings occur? When was the standoff between the armed militants and the police? When was the hospital burned down? We need to try and pin-point these events, and duration of events, when applicable, using the information that is scattered in the numerous references used for this article. Perhaps a starting point could be adding such bits of information here, as comments to this post? (Or as a sub-section) If there are conflicting accounts, we need them all presented, at least here, and then we can decide what to put into the article when we have consolidated the information. __meco (talk) 18:21, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Good idea. The UN is presenting a formal report on this in 2-3 days, which will be helpful for this. Khazar2 (talk) 19:01, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
Excellent excellent source from EllsworthSK. Can you take a look at the mock-up table I propose we try and use for this work? I've added all the witness testimonies from EllsworthSK's source into it. Is this something we can try and work with? __meco (talk) 18:30, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
It's an interesting idea, but I'm a little hesitant to adding so much detail and weight to eyewitness testimony (even in transcluded format). Is there precedent for this kind of approach in similar articles? Khazar2 (talk) 18:42, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
The table is for this page, the talk page. I propose it be used in the sub-section below. With an orderly and comprehensive listing of all witness testimonies as they are presented by various media outlets, it will, that is my idea, be an invaluable tool in weighing all the information and composing what is to go into the article itself. (I hope that clarification makes your question about precedents moot, because this is something I just came up with.) __meco (talk) 19:01, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
Oh, I misunderstood. I agree that this would be very helpful for this page--thanks for your efforts. Khazar2 (talk) 19:04, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
This BBC story attempts to give a narrative and map of the attacks. Khazar2 (talk) 01:40, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
I've extracted two statements from it. Unfortunately the journalist doesn't mention either where these victims/witnesses are from, to whom they were speaking or where and how these videos have been obtained by the BBC. __meco (talk) 07:14, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
Supeceded by following section
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Timestamp section (include references)

If the reference is already used in the article, say so.
  • Example: event A began around noon on Friday and lasted for five hours, according to source S (http://bbc..., not used in article)

According to Human Rights Watch investigation events unfolded as following

  • Friday protests As usually, residents held protests against government of Bashar al-Assad. According to witness it came under fire from one of the checkpoints on what FSA in town responded by attack on two military checkpoints. When this protest started, when shooting started and subsequently when FSA assaulted checkpoint is unclear. Number of killed and injured is unclear as well, all we know is that 3 soldiers died and 16 were injured (according to Syrian government)
  • Shelling starts at cca 14:30. Till 19:00 army is using only tank shells.
  • Shelling intensifies, gunmen enter town outskirts At 18:30 armed gunmen enters Houla outskirts, area which is owned and where lives Abdul Razzaq family near water dam. 62 members of family are killed. At 19:00 shelling intensifies and army starts using mortars and rocket artillery. Gunmen leaves the estate/house and FSA fighters comes in. When shelling stopped and what happened to rest of the city, including how did other 46 civilians died remains unclear. EllsworthSK (talk) 15:13, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Timeline tracer

The following table is transcluded from a sub-page. If you want updates to appear on your watchlist you must click "watch" below (Talk:Houla massacre/Timeline tracer (edit | article | history | links | watch | logs))
Table for collating witness testimonies as reported by reliable sources
Told by Told to Testimony
{{Cite news}} or {{Cite web}} or other
same as above enclosed in <nowiki></nowiki>, include the <ref name=NAME> tag if applicable.
Description of witness(es) relating to first testimony Description of who took the testimony (name of reporter, other person, organization, or unspecified) Details of first testimony
Description of witness(es) relating to second testimony Description of who took the testimony (name of reporter, other person, organization, or unspecified) Details of second testimony
empty empty empty
empty empty empty
empty empty empty
"Syria: UN Inquiry Should Investigate Houla Killings". Human Rights Watch. May 28, 2012. Archived from the original on May 28, 2012. Retrieved May 28, 2012. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
{{Cite web |title= Syria: UN Inquiry Should Investigate Houla Killings |url= http://www.hrw.org/news/2012/05/27/syria-un-inquiry-should-investigate-houla-killings |publisher= ] |date= May 28, 2012 |accessdate= May 28, 2012 |archiveurl= http://www.webcitation.org/680EtYjMy |archivedate= May 28, 2012 |deadurl= no}}
All witnesses, i.e. residents, survivors and local activists HRW interviewer(s) the armed men were pro-government, but they did not know whether they were members of the Syrian army or a pro-government militia (shabeeha)
Residents and survivors HRW At midday on May 25 protesters gathered in Taldou
a male witness HRW at around 2 p.m., soldiers from an army checkpoint opened fire to disperse nearby protesters but he did not know whether anyone was injured or killed at that moment
An opposition activist from Houla HRW armed members of the opposition subsequently attacked the checkpoint from which the army had fired, and that the Syrian army responded by intensely shelling various neighborhoods in Houla.
One resident of Taldou HRW At around 2:30 p.m., the army located on the outskirts of town started shelling the neighborhood. Initially, they used tanks, but after couple of hours they started using mortars. The shelling was coming from the direction of the Air Force military college located at the entrance of Houla. Around 7:00 p.m., the shelling intensified and whole buildings were shaking. The army started firing some sort of rockets that would shake an entire area.
survivors of the attacks HRW At around 6:30 p.m., just as the shelling intensified on parts of Houla, armed gunmen wearing military uniforms attacked homes situated on the outskirts of town on the road leading to the Houla dam
Local activists HRW Gave a list of 62 dead members from the Abdel Razzak family to HRW.
survivors HRW the Abdel Razzak family owns the land and farms next to the national water company and the water dam of Taldou, and lives in eight or nine houses next to each other, two families to a house.
An elderly woman from the Abdel Razzak family who survived the attack HRW I was in the house with my three grandsons, three granddaughters, sister-in-law, daughter, daughter in-law and cousin. around 6:30 p.m., before sunset, we heard gunshots. I was in a room by myself when I heard the sound of a man. He was shouting and yelling at my family. I hid behind the door. I saw another man standing outside by the entrance door and another one inside the house. They were wearing military clothes. I couldn’t see their faces. I thought they wanted to search the house. They walked in the house; I didn’t hear them break in because we never lock the doors. After three minutes, I heard all my family members screaming and yelling. The children, all aged between 10 and 14, were crying. I went down on the floor and tried to crawl so I could see what was happening. As I approached the door, I heard several gunshots. I was so terrified I couldn’t stand on my legs. I heard the soldiers leaving. I looked outside the room and saw all of my family members shot. They were shot in their bodies and their head. I was terrified to approach to see if they were alive. I kept crawling until I reached the back door. I went outside, and I ran away. I was in shock so I don’t know what happened later.
A 10-year-old boy from the Abdel Razzak family HRW he saw men wearing military clothes shoot his 13-year-old friend:

I was at home with my mother, my cousins, and my aunt. Suddenly I heard gunshots. It was the first time I heard so many gunshots. My mother grabbed me and took me to a barn to hide. I heard men screaming and shouting. I heard people crying especially women. I looked outside the window. I was peeking sometimes but I was afraid they would see me. Men wearing like army soldiers, green with other colors and white shoes, entered our house. They went outside after a couple of minutes. Then across the street I saw my friend Shafiq, 13 years old, outside standing alone. An armed man in military uniform grabbed him and put him at the corner of a house. He took his own weapon and shot him in the head. His mother and big sister – I think she was 14 years old – went outside and started shouting and crying. The same man shot at both of them more than once. Then the armed men left and the FSA soldiers came.

The boy’s mother HRW confirmed many of the details

At around 6:30 – 7:00 p.m., we started hearing the sound of gunshots. They were very close to us. We ran and hid in the barn. After the armed men left, and I heard the sound of their cars driving away, my sister and I went outside. I saw Shafiq on the ground dead. I saw three families: three women, two of them with children. All of them were shot. Some were shot in the head and others had multiple shots in the body. One of the children survived. She is 14 years old. She was shot twice in the leg. I also saw my cousin who was shot in the chest. A 13-year-old boy who was paralyzed was shot three times in his chest as well.

Allafi, F.; Said, H. (May 26, 2012). "New Massacres by al-Qaeda-linked Terrorist Groups against Families in al-Shumariyeh and Taldo in Homs Countryside". Syrian Arab News Agency. Archived from the original on May 26, 2012. Retrieved May 26, 2012. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
{{Cite news |title= New Massacres by al-Qaeda-linked Terrorist Groups against Families in al-Shumariyeh and Taldo in Homs Countryside |author= Allafi, F.; Said, H. |url= http://www.sana.sy/eng/337/2012/05/26/421559.htm |agency= ] |date= May 26, 2012 |accessdate= May 26, 2012 |archiveurl= http://www.webcitation.org/67xI6XGI9 |archivedate= May 26, 2012 |deadurl= no}}
A source in the province SANA reporter
  • terrorist groups from al-Qaeda perpetrated two appalling massacres against families in al-Shumariyeh village in Homs countryside in addition to committing sabotage acts on a large scale.
  • the terrorists brutally killed Mohammad Abdul-Nabi Abdullah, his wife and six sons in addition to the citizen Rateb al-Oulo along with his son.
  • other al-Qaeda-linked terrorist groups in Taldo town in the province's countryside committed a massacre against al-Sayyid family killing with cold-blood Aref Mohammad al-Sayyid, his two brothers Imad and Ouqba, his wife Izdihar Ali al-Daher and three children.
  • The groups also committed acts of burning the citizens' houses and crops to accuse the army of bombarding the area in Taldo, in addition to sabotaging the National Hospital in the area and attacking a headquarters of law enforcement forces.
"Syria: How the Houla massacre unfolded". BBC. May 28, 2012. Archived from the original on May 29, 2012. Retrieved May 29, 2012. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
{{Cite news |title= Syria: How the Houla massacre unfolded |url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-18244738 |publisher= BBC |date= May 28, 2012 |accessdate= May 29, 2012 |archiveurl= http://www.webcitation.org/6813vNCrK |archivedate= May 29, 2012 |deadurl= no}}
Ali (boy about 7 years old) shown on Ugarit News Speaking in possibly Arabic he shows how he pretended to be dead when the troops came to his house. He says there were government soldiers and militia men there. His brother and uncles were arrested, but when his mother tried to stop them they were all shot. (narrated by BBC journalist Ian Pannell)
picture of a 2-month old baby girl in bandages, her relatives quoted unknown She was wounded by government thugs in uniform (says BBC journalist Ian Pannell). Woman hiding her face: "This baby is my niece. They killed her mother, my sister. The thugs made us come downstairs and they started their carnage." (translators voice)
Muir, Jim; Hosea, Leana (May 26, 2012). "Syria crisis: Houla 'massacre leaves 88 dead'". BBC News. Archived from the original on May 26, 2012. Retrieved May 26, 2012. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
<ref name=BBC526>{{Cite news |author= Muir, Jim; Hosea, Leana |title= Syria crisis: Houla 'massacre leaves 88 dead' |url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18216176 |publisher= BBC News |date= May 26, 2012 |accessdate= May 26, 2012 |archiveurl= http://www.webcitation.org/67xIei8bJ |archivedate= May 26, 2012 |deadurl= no}}</ref>
An activist in Houla Associated Press troops began the assault on Houla after an anti-regime demonstration following Muslim prayers on Friday.

The assault began with artillery shelling which killed 12, he said - but scores more were butchered when pro-regime thugs known as "shabiha" then stormed the area.

"Houla eyewitness: 'They had no mercy'". BBC. May 28, 2012. Archived from the original on May 30, 2012. Retrieved May 30, 2012. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
{{Cite news |title= Houla eyewitness: 'They had no mercy' |url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18240460 |publisher= BBC |date= May 28, 2012 |accessdate= May 30, 2012 |archiveurl= http://www.webcitation.org/682mlj0FI |archivedate= May 30, 2012 |deadurl= no}}
Eyewitnesses in Houla interviews done by BBC News, the BBC Arabic Service and the BBC World Service (see individual accounts below)
HAMZA OMAR, opposition activist based in Houla (see above) "The shabiha militias attacked the houses. They had no mercy. We took pictures of children, under 10 years , their hands tied, and shot at close-range, from 10cm, just 10cm. By knife they cut their neck, not exactly all his neck, but they make a hole in the neck, a hole in his eyes.
RASHA ABDUL RAZAQ, survivor (see above) We were in the house, they went in, the Shabiha and security, they went in with Kalashnikovs and automatic rifles.

We asked them what was going on and they told us to go inside. We said: 'What is it? What do you want?'. They said: 'Take everything out, whatever you are hiding,' and we told them: 'We are not hiding anything'.

They took us to a room, and hit my father on the head with the back of a rifle and shot him straight in the chin.

They took us inside and told us to gather in the corner of the room. A man started shooting in the air so we all hid behind my mother. We were about 15 people.

Then they opened fire. After they shot us they started to step on us, and one of the men asked the other to check whether we were all dead. Then they went outside and started shooting in the air.

We were eight siblings, including myself, and my sister-in-law and her son - she was also six months pregnant. With us as well were my father, my uncle's wife and her daughter, as well as our neighbour and her three kids.

My aunt and her two daughters - one of them was only injured and she's here with me - she is one month old, the other one died. We were all in the house.

I survived with my mother and the one-month-old girl and my sister. They shot at us but we survived.

What's going to happen to us? When we hear that the army and the security is coming we start running in the streets, we are afraid they would repeat what they did to us the other day.

There were 100 houses in the neighbourhood, they killed everyone inside. They went into people's houses and opened fire and killed them all.

RASHA ABDUL RAZAQ'S MOTHER, survivor (see above) He said: 'We are from the mountain there, from Fulla,' so I said: 'We are neighbours then, we don't have any terrorists here,' and he said: 'You are the terrorists'. They thought I was dead. It was thanks to God that I survived. He was shooting my kids and yelling. Please get me and my daughter some protection - we are staying now in different people's houses. We are worried they will liquidate us.
ANONYMOUS, survivor (woman) (see above) We were opening our houses to them, we thought they were the army, and that they were doing inspections.

One of them told me: 'Go back inside, your turn is next'. I was with my husband and kids. So I got my husband's army service card, I thought maybe they would not bother with us when they see it. But I only survived because one of them shot another by mistake, and he yelled: 'I need help, Fakher was shot'. That kept them busy while we ran away, bullets were flying around us, from the army and the shabiha.

ANONYMOUS, survivor (see above) When they opened the door, I was still with them in the room. I was standing behind the door of the living room. They took my brothers outside, and I hid on the attic. All I could hear was gunfire, it felt like the whole house was shaking.

I opened the door, and I saw bodies, I couldn't recognise my kids from my brothers. It was indescribable. I have three children, I lost three children. I am shaking, I'm shaking as I'm speaking to you.

UM MOHAMMED, survivor (see above) We fled Friday night... They are targeting us with rockets and killing people… We fled through the plantations bombed here, bombed there. I don't know how we made it to the good people. As we walked the snipers targeted us, we hide between the plantations.
UM ABDULLAH, survivor (see above) Rockets and bombardments everywhere … I don't have any news of my own family. Why are you not intervening? All the corpses are piling up. If it was a foreign country all countries would have intervened. Come and remove all these corpses from the streets.
AKRAMA BAKOUR, Free Syrian Army, Houla (see above) There were two massacres. The first happened on the Sadd road and started at around 2:30pm on Friday afternoon.

The second massacre happened around 11pm, on the road at the main entrance of Taldou, facing the military security point.

On the Fulla-Taldou road - 500m to 700m from Fulla village - this village is supportive of the regime - a van, two pickup trucks and a group of motorcycles came from that village.

They entered the neighbourhood, and met a shepherd at the entrance. His name is Mahmoud al-Kurdi, and he was with his daughter-in-law and his four grandsons. They shot them, killing them all except the daughter-in-law. She was shot in the thigh and belly area but she is still alive.

They then entered the house of Samir Abdul Razaq. He was killed with his children - Sawsan, Houda, Jouzila and Nada. And his daughter-in-law Halloum El Khlaf, six months pregnant, with her son Ala'a Abdul Razaq, and Samir's sister-in-law Khaloud El Khalaf, and her daughter, Rahaf Al Hussein - but her daughter Zahra Al Hussein was shot twice but survived.

Samir's wife was hit with the back of the rifles but she fainted and is now still alive. Also among the victims in this house were four kids whose father is Fadi al-Kurdi.

The next house they entered was the house of Qutayba Abdul Razaq, he survived and his one-year-old daughter was injured. He lost his wife and five of his children.

All of those I'm counting died by gunshots, direct fire. They were gathered in one room and shot. There was one kid however whose head was skinned with a knife. The knife was found among the bodies and we have its picture.

The third house belongs to Nidal Abdul Razaq, his wife and four of his children were killed, and he and one of his children are still alive.

Adel Abdul Razaq - his whole family, a wife and six children.

Mustafa Abdul Razaq was killed with his four daughters, his wife and his daughter in law.

Ayman Abdul Razaq - all of his six children were killed as was his wife, one of the children was disabled.

Abdul Khalek Abdul Razaq - his wife and daughter survived gun shots but he lost six other children and his daughter-in-law and her three children.

Abdul Rahman Abdul Razaq lost his wife, his five daughters and 11 grandchildren as well as his six daughters-in-law and four of his sons. He still has two who are still alive; one is called Firas and the other Rateb. This massacre was of 27 people in the same room.

Also killed in the massacre were Yaacoub Hussein Abdul Razaq, Mohammad Shafiq Abdul Razaq, Mohammad Abbara and his daughter Amina and her family of seven.

Thomson, Alex (May 30, 2012). "The searing grief of Houla's Survivors". Channel 4 News. Archived from the original on May 30, 2012. Retrieved May 30, 2012. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
{{Cite news |url= http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/searing-grief-houlas-survivors/1739 |title= The searing grief of Houla's Survivors |author= Thomson, Alex |date= May 30, 2012 |publisher= Channel 4 News |accessdate=May 30, 2012 |archiveurl= http://www.webcitation.org/683M9ODri |archivedate= May 30, 2012 |deadurl= no}}
25-year-old Younis Channel 4 reporter lying in a room with two gunshot wounds in his torso. He’s telling us, weakly, how he was trying to help an 11-year-old boy on Friday when he was injured. The boy was shot dead.
A 15-year-old girl Channel 4 reporter lies on another bed not 10 yards away describing how she witnessed the Shabiya militia crouching behind a window as she tried to flee. She too was shot.
Abdul Bari, 30 Channel 4 reporter describes how he came by blast wounds during the protest after prayers on Friday.
man , educated with good English. He has gone through the emotions to reach cold, measured anger. Over the next three hours I will deliberately ask him the same question to see if his story alters in any detail. It does not. He is willing to be interviewed and identified on camera. But to protect him we do not do this. Channel 4 News knows his name and full identity. Channel 4 reporter He describes how there was intense shelling of the ground for several hours. After that the Shabiya – armed militia – entered the town from the southern to south western direction. He says there were around 100 of them dressed in military uniforms. They approached Dam Road which connects the large reservoir to the Houla villages. He says – and all agree – these men were Shia and Alawite who had come from specific Shia/Alawite villages to the south and west of Houla.

He names several villages and later we are taken to a rooftop where we can see those villages from the overwhelmingly Sunni town of Houla.

Two names come up time and again – Kabu and Felleh. They are so close, not more than two or three mile as the most. He goes on describing how the killers had written Shia slogans on their foreheads as they went house to house searching out and slaughtering Sunni families.

He says to us: “They have slaughtered us, they have killed us. When this is all over we will be victorious. And we will go there. And we will find them out and we will slaughter them and we will kill them. We will kill their men, women and children as they killed our men, women and children.”

(relating to previous witness testimony) scores of people Channel 4 reporter over the next five hours we spend in Houla, scores of people will corroborate his story in various details.
an elderly man, Abdul Hamad Channel 4 reporter who knows not only that his daughter was killed but that her throat was hacked with a knife, it seems, wielded by men who live just a few miles distant.
empty empty empty
empty empty empty

SYNTH content

It looks like the background section has had a bit of WP:SYNTH content added to it, such as this Huff Post piece not mentioning the current massacre, but only detailing past events. Per that policy, I suggest we not include any sources here that don't directly mention our topic; listing unrelated human rights violations that the Syrian govt has been accused of or that the Syrian opposition has been accused of is both off-topic and a bit POV. Khazar2 (talk) 19:19, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Disappointingly, that editor has declined to engage me here, but has reverted again when I tried to remove it. I'd appreciate another look at this, but I'd still argue that our job is to summarize only sources about the Houla Massacre here--not to list past crimes of Al Qaeda, nor of Assad's government, nor of the Syrian opposition, nor of the United Nations, etc., etc. Including cherry-picked past events that haven't been mentioned in reliable sources in connection to this seems to me clearly POV. Khazar2 (talk) 02:02, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
Huffington post is not a reliable source, it has no editorial oversight for individual pieces. Find a better source for claims. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.255.230.32 (talk) 02:47, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
I wouldn't object to your removing that part of the content if you'd like to. Khazar2 (talk) 02:50, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
Huffington post is a reliable source. But regardless I will search for other sources. Sopher99 (talk) 03:15, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Coordinates

This are Houla coordinates. Rakela (talk) 02:50, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Summary of UN Security Council resolution--opinion requested

An editor has reverted my attempts to add a fuller description of the UN Security council resolution. The New York Times makes it very explicit that the resolution does not directly blame the Syrian government for all the deaths: "The 15-member Council approved a statement that, while not blaming the Syrian government directly for all the deaths, rebuked it for its use of tanks and artillery against civilians despite agreeing to an April 12 cease-fire." It seems to me that leaving out this qualifier is a bit dishonest, but I could be wrong. A third opinion would be appreciated. Khazar2 (talk) 03:18, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

You would be right, except for including that part implies that a second party (such as the FSA) is also responsible. That is misleading, because the only thing mood was able to confirm was that artillery and knives were used, and Mood acknowledged that only the gov has artillery power.

If you can find a way to say "while not blaming the Syrian government for all the deaths- as the source of knife attacks and close range shootings can not be easily be identified in any circumstances" I believe it would work better. What I am trying to say is that what you added leaves the reader with a sense that the Syrian government is not solely responsible - but thats not what is being said. Please find a way to fix this problem. Sopher99 (talk) 03:23, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

The problem is that, in my understanding, the UN is holding back from explicitly saying that the Syrian government is solely responsible: "Mr. Ban skated very close to blaming Syrian government shelling for at least some of the deaths while carefully noting that the cause had not been completely determined." It's important to note that this statement still has wiggle-room in it. (My understanding is that Russia is largely responsible for the watering down).
It seems to me that if we don't include or paraphrase some form of "while not blaming the Syrian government directly for all the deaths", we're misrepresenting the statement. What we could do, though, is follow Al Jazeera's lead and discuss this statement in more detail later on the in the article. Britain and other nations wanted a more direct condemnation of Assad; Russia balked. Khazar2 (talk) 04:25, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

There is strong implication, but does not judge directly who was involved probably because of ongoing UNSMIS investigation and because of Russian stance (who protect their pet dictator at all cost, but let´s leave that aside). As was said, report does not says that Syrian government is not solely responsible, it says that currently they cannot say with 100 percent accuracy who is responsible, yet neither UNSC resolution, nor Major General Mood statements implicates rebel forces of committing this massacre, therefore trying to bring them on same level won´t fly, at least not here. Therefore we should wait till final UNSMIS report (if it ever comes), state in article what was in sources - ie strong implication towards Syrian security forces (military and militia) being penetrators, but not establishing guilt to neither side. EllsworthSK (talk) 09:09, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree. If you'd like to rework the sentence in the lead section accordingly, I'd appreciate it. I've done a lot of work on this article today and am probably nearing my revert limit. Khazar2 (talk) 09:17, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I shortened the lead both according to this discussion and the above discussion with mede about duplicity of general Mood statements. Would this be acceptable as lead?

The Houla massacre was an attack that took place on May 25, 2012, in two opposition-controlled villages in the Houla Region, a cluster of villages north of Homs where at least 108 people, including 34 women and 49 children, were killed. The official news agency of the Syrian government alleged that Al-Qaeda terrorist groups were responsible for the killings, while opposition groups alleged that the Syrian military and government-linked militias known as Shabiha were the perpetrators. Residents say they had sent the UN obser mission in Syria a plea for help before the massacre, warning of an imminent attack by the government, but the UN monitors did not respond.

The Syrian Government was condemned for its role in the massacre unanimously by the United Nations Security Council. The statement said that the attacks "involved a series of government artillery and tank shellings on a residential neighborhood" and the security council called for the Syrian Government to withdraw heavy weapons from Syrian towns.

EllsworthSK (talk) 09:30, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Although I love how no one responds on this in discussion and afterwards reverts the edit without writing a letter here, here are the reasons for deletion of this and that. a, 17 dead is number long time ruled out by UN. UN is RS, SANA is not. b, general Mood statement, discussed above. Duplicity. c, SNC - same as SANA. RS gave us number of casualties while SNC is not RS. d, Kofi Annan - duplicity, already mentioned in international respons. So what is the problem? EllsworthSK (talk) 10:02, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Date format

This article suffers from inconsistency in date format. Dates are variously given as "27 May", "May 27", and even "28th May". Misplaced Pages guidelines say that the date format should be consistent throughout an article. I was adressing this issue the other day, obtaining full consistency, but was immediately reverted by user Meco on the grounds that the original date format should be retained (WP:DATERET). It is pretty obvious that, when there are several date formats in the same article, one has to be chosen. I had chosen international format over the US format, because the article has no strong national ties (WP:STRONGNAT) to the United States (in fact, it has none whatsoever). When I pointed out to Meco that he had reintroduced inconsistent date formats to the article with his action, he was faced with the same problem: he had to choose one format. He chose the least appropriate, the US format, for reasons he can best explain himself.

For quality reasons, this inconsistency has to be fixed, as this is a highly visible article, covering a current event in a series of ongoing events. One format has to be chosen, and in my view, it's pretty obvious that US date format is the least suitable for the article – and indeed for the whole series on this topic.

HandsomeFella (talk) 08:28, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't disagree with your argument, but I submit that per WP:ENGVAR, this isn't worth spending our time debating when the article has so much development left to be done; as long as there's a consistent format in the article, that's the only important thing for now. Khazar2 (talk) 18:32, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
Yes, I agree that there are more important things to do in the article, but there had been no debate at all about this if Meco had just refrained from that knee-jerk revert. And we would still have consistent date format. But I'll leave it for now. HandsomeFella (talk) 19:38, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Mexican government's reaction

Is it relevant to the article if I include Mexico's reaction? I noticed that there are other countries listed in the International Reactions' section. ComputerJA (talk) 00:49, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, please do. Thanks! Khazar2 (talk) 01:39, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
Got it. You're welcome! ComputerJA (talk) 19:48, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

"The Syrian government has a history of committing massacres"

I appreciate the honest attempt to present the facts on this terrible incident as far as they are known and confirmed. In that spirit I propose to delete the sentence "The Syrian government has a history of committing massacres", because this statement is not related to facts of this incident. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.109.18.2 (talk) 12:30, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

If that has been fairly incontrovertibly confirmed that would seem an appropriate part of the background history to this incident. __meco (talk) 16:11, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
Many governments that actually use their military forces "have a history of committing massacres." I think that background from the current uprising / civil war, including mention of recent civilian casualties at the hands of the Syrian Army, and also mention of the recent suicide bombings, would be more informative. -Darouet (talk) 16:23, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
I agree. It would be clearly POV if we said something like "the UN has a history of ignoring massacres", and then linked to criticisms of the organizaiton following Rwanda. I don't think we should get a free pass to "make a case" against the Assad government until we see that our reliable sources are doing the same. Khazar2 (talk) 16:35, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Something should be done about the Events section

Would it perhaps make the article more transparent if we divided this into "Media reports of massacre in Houla" and "Witness testimonies", or something else? I'm open to ideas. I don't think the current section/title is an ideal way to organize this information. __meco (talk) 17:04, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

It seems to me we have a diverse enough range of sources in there (UN, media, witnesses, political groups, etc.) that an accurate new header would be hard to find. I suppose we could call it "Reports on massacre" but only in the sense that almost any Misplaced Pages section could be called "Reports on..." This section will hopefully continue to "harden" into more directly verifiability as reports like the UN's and HRW's continue to emerge.
So I think I'm good with the current title for now, but also open for other ideas. Khazar2 (talk) 17:15, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
OK, I'm good with your second opinion. __meco (talk) 17:21, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Separate section on witness testimonies

We have as of now four separate articles in the timeline tracer table above which quotes testimonies from witnesses who either survived the attacks or who give direct information including names and locations and details of killings. What I find interesting with these is that a) all named witnesses to the killings blame the government and its militias, and b) no witnesses give details about victims of the artillery/mortar/tanks attacks by the Syrian regular military. Would it be a good idea to present this somewhat as I have laid it out now? Or would stating that none of the victims of government shelling are mentioned in the witness testimonies be original synthesis? __meco (talk) 17:32, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

I feel like mentioning it as an omission would be OR/synth ("Witnesses did not mention..."), but I'd think it would be fair to say something like "Witnesses focused on..." We might also more prominently emphasize the UN report stating that most victims did not die by heavy weapons, but up close and ugly. I added this last night, but it ended up a bit buried at the end of a paragraph. Khazar2 (talk) 17:59, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Related article nominated for deletion

May 2012 Homs clashes is a stub article which has been nominated for deletion. Perhaps adding links to it in this article (and contributing to it) would help placing the massacre in a bigger context or at least connect it with related events. __meco (talk) 18:17, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Reworking of lead section

I've attempted to rework the lead section of the article to reduce the garble of conflicting claims. The media is now relying heavily on the UN reporting as the most reliable source, and so I've emphasized UN sources and de-emphasized opposition and Assad-govt. sources when it comes to casualties and causes of death. I'd be glad to hear other opinions on this if I've been excessively bold, though. Khazar2 (talk) 18:45, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

We now have a figure of 20 casualties from shelling through the recently added Channel 4 article. __meco (talk) 19:27, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
We should now perhaps focus on condensing the paragraphs of the Events section where the two opposition blocs present their initial claims? __meco (talk) 19:31, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
Sounds good to me. I would think again that the initial claims could be greatly reduced, and more weight given to the more reliable (and far more widely reported as legitimate) UN report. Those initial claims are still worth mentioning, I think, but far less relevant. But I'll let somebody else take the first crack at this one; I've probably wandered into 3RR territory already with all this rewriting and a few borderline-vandalism reverts. Khazar2 (talk) 19:37, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
You shouldn't worry about 3RR. There's no tendency towards edit warring here. __meco (talk) 19:41, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Perpetrators

An editor has just changed the perpetrator section of the infobox from "Shabiha militias and Syrian military (alleged as most likely perpetrators by the UN)" to "Unknown". This strikes me as both true and misleading; the majority of reliable sources are following the UN in discussing this not as a mystery, but as a massacre most likely perpetrated by Shabiha militias. I'm fine with a rephrasing if needed, but I think we need to follow our sources in reporting the alleged likely perpetrator. Khazar2 (talk) 20:14, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

ITN round 2?

This article is being considered for a second inclusion on In The News at WP:ITN/C due to today's diplomatic fallout; opinions one way or the other, and help crafting a potential blurb, would be welcome. Khazar2 (talk) 04:17, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

"The Syrian government has a history of committing massacres"

I'm a bit wary of this initial sentence in the Background section. I've glanced at the three articles that are linked and they seem to support this statement, however, I have not investigated the references in those articles to establish whether this is the final verdict or "merely" the majority opinion or mainstream media consensus. Have those articles been subjected to the same level of NPOV enforcement as we have hopefully managed with the present article? In any case, using other Misplaced Pages articles as references is in itself inadmissible, so we should do something quickly about this matter. __meco (talk) 18:18, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

I've been complaining about that paragraph on this page for days. =) I agree that it's needlessly prejudicial. BBC, Al Jazeera, and other reliable sources are not discussing this in terms of a 10- to 20-year "history of committing massacres" (though they are putting it in the context of the war's violence). Even the sentence on previous Houla violence seems shaky to me--if this is importnat background, why has it been mentioned by zero news organizations with reference to the massacre? A better background section to my mind would have a few sentences describing the origins of the civil war, and its previous violence, per a reliable source that is discussing the Houla massacre directly. In either case, though, I agree that "history of massacres" has to go. Khazar2 (talk) 18:30, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Inconsistencies

The article reads:

According to Al Jazeera's correspondent Hadi al-Abdallah, the Free Syrian Army had gained control of the town of Houla, and it became a hub for opposition militants. The Syrian Army was unable to enter the town, forcing them to shell it from a distance.

I thought those massacred were stabbed and shot from close range. Why the contradiction? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.71.17.180 (talk) 18:59, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

  1. Cite error: The named reference AJ526 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
Categories:
Talk:Houla massacre: Difference between revisions Add topic