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Howard Fineman

Howard Fineman (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Hello, there are two minor errors that warrant correction in the Howard Fineman biographical article. I spotted these errors because I work with Howard Fineman. Because my employment relationship presents a WP:COI, I was wondering if someone here on the BLP/N would be able to review and make these two corrections:

1. Update the first sentence of the intro paragraph to read as: "Howard Fineman is an American journalist who is editorial director of the AOL Huffington Post Media Group.(citing this source)" Reasoning: The current version is simply outdated, as it uses a prior title of "senior politics editor." The subject of this article is currently "editorial director" as shown here.

2. In paragraph two of the Education and early career section, remove the phrase "a practicing Jew" due to inaccuracy and unverifiability. Reasoning: The Wikipedian who wrote this sentence seems to have made an honest mistake in describing the subject as "a practicing Jew," as this is not correct (nor is it verifiable in reliable sources). They seem to have misread the source cited, jweekly.com, which states that "He attended a predominantly Jewish high school before moving on to Colgate University"; however the source never actually describes Fineman as "a practicing Jew."

Thanks for your help. If any further sources are needed to justify the changes suggested above, please let me know and I'd be happy to provide those. Cheers, Jeff Bedford (talk) 16:13, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

It turns out that an editor from the WP:HELP IRC live chat was able to make these two changes, so this request has been handled. If anyone has additional feedback on these changes, though, I am more than open to it. Thanks, Jeff Bedford (talk) 22:45, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Jeff Bedford—While it is true that the source you cite above would not seem to support a term such as "practicing Jew", it would be a source that would support that Howard Fineman is Jewish. We find at that source:

• "But Yiddishkeit and lively discussions at the dinner table ruled. 'There's a direct line from my table to 'Hardball,' Fineman notes. 'My dad was like Chris Matthews because he would both ask and answer his own questions."

• "His parents, both teachers, also taught Sunday school at the local synagogue where Fineman was bar mitzvahed. He attended a predominantly Jewish high school before moving on to Colgate University.

• "While there, he earned a postgraduate fellowship, for which he undertook what he calls his 'kosher roots project. I bought a VW bus and went to Jewish places in the Old Country, then to Israel for three months. I recapitulated Jewish history.'"

• "Fineman says America has proven a uniquely hospitable home for Jews because of the nature of its founding."

• "'That, plus the innate philo-Semitism of the founders, who analogized their situation to the Jews of the Old Testament, makes the country unique.'"

I would suggest that we have support in the above source for our article to be saying that Howard Fineman is Jewish. I am saying that this edit has removed too much material insofar as it has also removed that Howard Fineman is Jewish. Bus stop (talk) 19:14, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

I've restored that Fineman is Jewish while leaving out the term "practicing" which may not be supportable by that source. I have done that in this edit. Bus stop (talk) 14:06, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to look into this so thoroughly. I submit that we take a closer look at the phrase "who is Jewish."

While WP:BLP does not cover this type of content directly, WP:BLPCAT states that "Categories regarding religious beliefs or sexual orientation should not be used unless the subject has publicly self-identified with the belief or orientation in question, and the subject's beliefs or sexual orientation are relevant to their public life or notability, according to reliable published sources." Put more briefly, religious inclusion requires both (a) self-identification, and (b) relevance (with RS) to notability.

The spirit of WP:BLP would also suggest that a living person ought to have a right to self-identify as part of a religious group. While the subject of this article attended a predominantly Jewish high school and was bar mitzvahed several decades ago, the subject has not self-identified as being Jewish, and his religion is not related to his notability.

Based on these factors, it does not seem to be fitting to speculate that the subject of this article "is Jewish." Bus stop, what are your thoughts on this? Could a few others could weigh in as well, in order to help establish consensus? Jeff Bedford (talk) 19:17, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Jeff Bedford—do you mean to say that despite the assertion supported by a reliable source that Howard Fineman was bar mitzvahed we still may not have adequate justification for saying in our article that Fineman is Jewish? Bus stop (talk) 13:54, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Hello and thanks for the prompt response--much appreciated. Yes, that is my suggestion. As I mentioned above, I happen to work with Howard Fineman--which is why I've posed this question for the community to decide on (as I'm cognizant of WP:OWN and WP:COI, and therefore will only make grammatical/minor direct edits myself). Howard asked why the article describes him as being Jewish, given the fact that his religion is not related to his notability, and as an adult he has not self-identified as being Jewish.

I wouldn't generally suggest removing material in an article (such as controversies) simply because a subject asked to have it removed; however regarding the designation of a subject's religious beliefs, WP:BLP asks Wikipedians to exercise extra care--and thus, in the interest of information accuracy, if a living person indicates that they prefer not to be classified under a specific religion, I feel it is only appropriate to respect their desire given the personal, contentious and, for some, non-static nature of religious beliefs.

Would it be helpful if I asked Mr. Fineman to submit an OTRS ticket or something of that nature to help provide clarification? I wouldn't think that would be necessary, but if it would be of help, I'd be happy to look into doing so. Thanks to Bus stop and others for discussing this so constructively. Cheers, Jeff Bedford (talk) 20:32, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Jeff Bedford—the article supporting that Howard Fineman is Jewish is published in April 2008. Can you please tell me what has transpired in the intervening 4 years to cause us to reassess the applicability of this attribute vis-a-vis Howard Fineman? If I am asking something improper I hope other, more knowledgeable editors will jump in and shed the light of some policy considerations on this situation. I am in personally uncharted territory as a Wikipedian here, and I don't want to make any faux pas or worse in my line of questioning. Thanks. Bus stop (talk) 02:50, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

In the past four years, the WP:BLP standards regarding categorization have been materially changed, as I am sure you recall through discussions on this very board in which you have participated. A clear reading of the article you give allows the assertion that he was "bar mitzvahed" but not that he self-identifies (current tense) as Jewish. Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:27, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Collect—I understand your concern with verification. While I did not add the source to the article, I feel it adequately supports that Howard Fineman is Jewish. Bus stop (talk) 12:13, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

(ec)I removed the category "Jewish American writers", in case you missed my edit on that BLP. I also made the edit wherein you labelled him as Jewish to "raised in a Jewish family" as being both accurate and supportable by the source. Cheers. (this post was written while B.S. removed his comments about "categories" being not an issue here) Collect (talk) 12:24, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, it is helpful that several are weighing in, as this will help in establishing consensus on what is, naturally, a complex topic. "Raised in a Jewish family" seems accurate. The only question that remains is, doesn't this sentence sound a bit odd with the religious background inserted into it? It now reads:

"Fineman, who was raised in a Jewish family, began his journalism career at The Louisville Courier-Journal, covering the environment, the coal industry and state politics..."

His first journalism work involved writing for this regional newspaper about state politics and the environment, but neither these subjects, nor the paper itself or his journalism career are tied to the religion of his parents.

For instance, the article about Mel Gibson mentions his religious upbringing because it is directly related to his notability (he directed a prominent film on a religious subject, Passion of the Christ). However, the article about Josh Weinstein does not mention his religious upbringing because that is not directly tied to his notability (he was a writer for The Simpsons). It would be odd to read a sentence such as 'Weinstein, who was raised in a _______ family, began writing for The Simpsons in...'

Since Howard Fineman is notable as a political journalist and this notability is not tied to his religious beliefs, what are your thoughts on revising this content to a state where it does not include the religious qualifiers? Jeff Bedford (talk) 14:54, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Jeff Bedford—why not just break into separate sentences? For instance: "A native of Pittsburgh, Fineman attended Taylor Allderdice High School, graduating in 1966. Fineman was raised in a Jewish family. He began his journalism career at The Louisville Courier-Journal, covering the environment, the coal industry and state politics before joining the newspaper’s Washington bureau in 1978."

It presently reads: "A native of Pittsburgh, Fineman attended Taylor Allderdice High School, graduating in 1966. Fineman, who was raised in a Jewish family, began his journalism career at The Louisville Courier-Journal, covering the environment, the coal industry and state politics before joining the newspaper’s Washington bureau in 1978." Bus stop (talk) 15:04, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Settled, I trust. Collect (talk) 15:17, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

The separate sentence helps, but it is still confusing that the article mentions that he was raised in a Jewish family at all. Given that it does not have anything to do with his reason for notability, is there a reason why should it be included? Shouldn't the article follow the same conventions that the article about Josh Weinstein does, for the reasons cited above? Thanks for continuing this discussion so objectively--I appreciate the constructive responses that Bus stop and Collect have contributed. Jeff Bedford (talk) 17:22, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Jeff Bedford—I think one article bears less than perfect correlation to another article. Would you agree with that, to an extent? Nevertheless let me ask you, have you encountered any source saying that the notable individual you refer to—Josh Weinstein—either is Jewish or was raised in a Jewish family? Bus stop (talk) 03:15, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

If it is biographically relevant - it's a biography, and in a complete biography we discuss things that are of note to someone's life, career, and times - who their parents were, where they were born, their siblings, spouse, and so on. If a person's cultural or religious upbringing (or, frankly, most any part of their upbringing) seems to be significant to their life story then it improves the article to give it due weight. - Wikidemon (talk) 03:38, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

While it was not initially evident, there is in fact one source, Chicago Jewish News, which discusses Weinstein's religion. That source--like jweekly.com--will always describe the religious background of the subjects of its articles. This is certainly a fine thing for these publications to do. However for Misplaced Pages's purposes, sources such as jweekly.com or Chicago Jewish News are not reliable sources for establishing the notability of a BLP's religion. I would suggest that since Time Magazine covered Mel Gibson's religion in this article, and he is notable for his work directing a film about religion, the inclusion of religious upbringing in the Mel Gibson Misplaced Pages article is appropriate. However since the only publication mentioning Josh Weinstein's religious upbringing is Chicago Jewish News, the Misplaced Pages article, appropriately, does not include his religious upbringing because it has not been documented in non-religion-focused reliable sources.

I actually think all of the contributors to this discussion have made solid, grounded points. On one hand, Misplaced Pages articles--particularly those about living people--should not just mention a person's religion unless reliable sources which do not exist solely to document religion (again, nothing wrong with this at all) have established that the BLP's religion is directly tied to their notability. However everyone sees the world differently, and I can respect why others may hold a different viewpoint.

Do others agree or disagree with the suggestion that jweekly.com is not a reliable source for establishing the notability of this living person's religion? I am open to all perspectives, and also want to reiterate that I intend for the community to have the final say on this (not I, given my WP:COI). Cheers, Jeff Bedford (talk) 14:12, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

The article seems perfectly reliable as to the facts - he was bar mitzvah-ed, parents were sunday school teachers, went to a Jewish high school, went on some kind of self-discovery walkabout to Israel. Sounds about as Jewish as most Jewish kids in America. Keeping in mind that notability isn't a content inclusion standard, it's more a mix of weight and relevance (I try to use "noteworthiness" as a shorthand): I don't think we can categorically rule in or out an entire publication, it depends on the subject, the article in question, and what it says. Jewish publications sometimes run "Jews in the News" type columns, where mere inclusion doesn't establish notability and may not even be factually correct. On the other hand, a full-on feature article in a publication with strong editorial standards, profiling a person's relationship to their faith, culture, roots, etc., would definitely establish due significance. This one, alas, is in between. It devotes a couple paragraphs out of a several page article to describing his Jewish upbringing. If it were a general interest periodical that would be a strong sign that this is a biographically important fact. Here, because of the nature of the publication they have to tie his Jewishness in somehow or else why would they have an article? I guess the answer is that I would downplay the weight of this source but not discount it entirely. If that's the only source anyone can find, it may not be strong enough. Plus, in debatable cases we ought to take the BLP subject's own (apparently) wishes into account. Just what are they asking us to do here? - Wikidemon (talk) 17:16, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Wikidemon, the way you put this makes a lot of sense. I just spoke with Howard Fineman about this and he indicated that he'd prefer the Misplaced Pages article about him refrain from discussing his religion or religious upbringing. He feels that since his reason for notability (as a journalist) is not related to his religious upbringing. I've informed him of WP:OWN and WP:COI, so he understands that this is a Misplaced Pages article about him, and not his Misplaced Pages article. He trusts the community of editors here to ultimately make the right decisions. Does that context help in establishing consensus on this? Jeff Bedford (talk) 19:28, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

That works for me. My stake on this particular issue is slight. Any other opinions? - Wikidemon (talk) 20:38, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Jeff Bedford—I see no justification for leaving out such a basic feature of biographies as that the individual is of Jewish background. In my opinion this is standard fare in biographies. In my opinion the inclusion of information similar to that is to be expected. I think that generally speaking, the reader's interests are best served by our providing information rather than by our withholding information. I don't think the subject should be allowed to persuade us to leave out information if it can be argued that some readers might find it of interest and if no reasons relating to impropriety can be found, and I think none can be found pertaining to this instance. The argument seems to be that the information should be removed because it is irrelevant, but I think that is debatable. Bus stop (talk) 22:36, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your input, Bus stop. You and Wikidemon both make good points. I recognize that this ultimately comes down to someone, hopefully a few Wikipedians, making an editorial decision. I think we can all agree that this falls into a grey area in terms of Misplaced Pages's policies/guidelines, which is why, fortunately, we have intelligent editors here making decisions instead of just letting an algorithm compile these articles. Because I have a COI related to this subject I feel it would be best for me to bow out of this thread and step onto the observation deck for the moment, in order to leave the ultimate decision up to uninvolved editors such as yourself, Wikidemon, Collect and any others who may be able to weigh in. Regards,Jeff Bedford (talk) 13:45, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Jeff Bedford—in looking this over again I just noticed that the Chicago Jewish News story is about a different Josh Weinstein. This one goes by the name J. Elvis Weinstein. Bus stop (talk) 02:06, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Ah, thanks for pointing that out, Bus stop. My mistake! --Jeff Bedford (talk) 16:33, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Would it be possible for a few other BLP/N experts to weigh in on this thread and come to a conclusion? As noted above, I have a COI, so I would prefer to limit myself to presenting information, leaving it up to you all to make the editorial decision. Cheers, Jeff Bedford (talk) 13:34, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Mark Zuckerberg Jewish?

Discussion. Influential Jew, marriage commentary, RS?. The question is whether or not enough evidence exists supporting Zuckerberg being included as an American Jew as categories or Jewish as ethnicity in the infobox. Some editors invoke BLPCAT. Thoughts? Wikifan 21:56, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

I suggested that Wikifan come here as the consensus at the Talk page seems to be running against his position. It's very long thread on the Talk page, although there is a fair amount of repetition of people's views. I'll quickly summarize some of it, hopefully, fairly. I think everyone agrees that Zuckerberg was born to Jewish parents and raised Jewish. Everyone also agrees that he self-identifies as an atheist. I believe, although not as certainly, that everyone agrees that he has not self-identified as a Jew, either from a religious or cultural (what Wikipedians often call ethnic) standpoint. All of this, except the last point (as it's an absence of something), is articulated in the body of the article. The question is pretty much as Wikifan states it above. Part of the problem - and this is nothing new - comes from the ambiguity in our own policies and categories about Jews, as well as the fact that Jews are not monolithic in their belief systems. Some identify as Jewish by religion, and some identify as Jewish by culture and heritage. And, of course, some identify as Jewish by all of that.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:27, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

• Clearly he's a person of Jewish descent - that is the WP:BLP. take care as to reporting as if fact about living people - position simple really- move along, - Bbb23 is right, our Jew issues categories in this sector are vague/disruptive (disruptive as we have many unresolved and unsatisfactory discussions/outcomes that need clarifying, especially about living people but not solely) - If users want to add that someone is a mother line Jew then the cat should clearly state that - Matriarchal Jew - Youreallycan 22:53, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

• I am not familiar with this redline of "self-identified" as a Jew. I guess it could be inferred since he was raised Jews, and had a bar mitzvah. It seems pretty excessive to expect individuals to go out and say, verbatim - "I'm a Jew" when a laundry list of reliable sources explicitly identify Zuckerberg as a Jew. Not of "Jewish descent." I do not believe blpcat applies because this is ethnicity, not religion. Do we expect individuals to self-identify as African Americans or Native Americans? I hope to see uninvolved, third party weigh in on this discussion because it could have serious ramifications for other Jewish BLPs that possess half the sources supporting Zuckerberg's status as a Jew. Wikifan 23:00, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

That is the specific WP:BLP issue that vague comments fail to mention or differentiate the connection between ethnicity and religion. - Youreallycan 23:03, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Putting aside Misplaced Pages policy for the moment and approaching this as a commonsense matter, the article body does a good job of explaining who Zuckerberg is from a religious/cultural perspective. The infobox and cats would destroy that good work and label him in a misleading fashion. Wikifan believes (I think) that Zuckerberg inherits his Jewish characteristics, whatever they might be, from his parents. I strongly disagree that just because one is born Jewish, one is a Jew. Some characteristics of human beings are genetic. I am unaware of any Jewish gene.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:18, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

How would it be misleading? Plenty of info on Jewish "genes" - Genetic studies on Jews. "I strongly disagree that just because one is born Jewish, one is a Jew." This kind of thinking is problematic as editors should only contribute based on policy and sources. If Zuckerberg's parents are Jewish, and he was raised Jewish, and he is described as one of the world's most influential Jews by an RS, there shouldn't be any serious disagreement as to whether or not Zuckerberg is Jewish. Jewishness is an ethnicity, as are Native Americans and African-Americans. Wikifan 23:30, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

I do hope we get an answer to the question, how would it be misleading. I think we've got a case here that suggests that the approach some people have been taking to this issue is not so convincing. For one thing, it means that whether someone is identified here as Jewish is a question being addressed in ways different from that used for other ethnicities. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 06:03, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

We will never get an answer on this. We never have before. Why should now be different? I believe there is a difference between having certain genetic characteristics (like the cases cited by Wikifan) and identifying with a culture or a heritage, and the WP article pointed to by Wikifan about Jews and genes is hardly conclusive; most of those kinds of articles are not. I also don't want to get into a discussion about African-Americans and what exactly that means to different people because that would really create a messy tangential argument. I've stated, rather succinctly I believe, why it is misleading in Zuckerberg's case, and I don't want to open this up to a global discussion. That belongs in another forum.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:38, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

The question ("How would it be misleading") was posed by Wikifan in relation to Zuckerburg. You have asserted that editing the infobox and cats in the way Wikifan proposes would be misleading, but you haven't indicated how it would be misleading -- hence the question. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:10, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

The infobox would be misleading because it makes it sound like Zuckerberg is an ethnic Jew when there's no evidence he is (remember, I don't accept that cultural Judaism is inherited), and the cat would be even more misleading as it makes no distinction religious and cultural Jews, but, even if it means "or", it would be misleading in the same way the infobox would be. Everything flows from the initial premises, and Wikifan and I disagree on the premises.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:36, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Errm do you have a different definition of "ethnic"from me - I always believed it was (and quoting our article) "a group of people who identify with each other through a common heritage, consisting of a common culture" So how can you differentiate cultural when cultural is the key element of ethnic? I assume you are looking for biological or something similar - for those cases the "of Jewish Descent" category is more appropriate but it's not the case for Zuckerberg who you seem to admit was raised culturally Jewish before choosing Atheism as a philosophical viewpoint. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 17:09, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

For the purpose of Misplaced Pages, I accept our definition. My point is that there is no evidence that Zuckerberg identifies with the Jewish culture.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:26, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

There's nothing in BLPCAT requiring self-identification with ethnicity/culture. The available sources on the matter are quite clear. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:05, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

While I've mostly stayed out of this issue, I have to say, for the record, both Newsweek ("Ashkenazi Jews are one of the most coherent genetic groups that exist") and The New York Times ("The shared genetic elements suggest that members of any Jewish community are related to one another as closely as are fourth or fifth cousins in a large population") and every other scholarly source support Jews being an ethnic group (or a "genetic" group, as Bbb23 says). I also am beginning to view Bbb23 as highly disruptive. Previously, he stated that people shouldn't be categorized as "Jewish" per "BLPcat" because the category does not differentiate between Jewish religion and Jewish ethnicity. Now, his opinion has shifted further towards whichever direction, in that people can't be described as being "ethnically" Jewish either! (because your ethnicity is not inherited from your parents? I hate to break it to you, but your parents are the only ones who transmit your ethnicity to you. There is no other way to become a member of an ethnic group. That's kind of how it works. "Identifying" with this culture or that does not make you a member of an ethnicity, nor does not identifying with it make you a non-member. Hence the term "ethnically Jewish" and not "culturally Jewish", two different things). Now, I don't know if Bbb23 is my fifth cousin or not, but he doesn't seem to understand the issues here; in fact, more and more so with every passing year since his position is more extreme now than it was a year ago. All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 17:37, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Heh, remarkably constructive, AHW. As far as I know, my position on these issues is just as "highly disruptive" as it was before. The only thing that's "changed" is my promise to myself not to let myself get sucked in too deeply to these discussions. I've broken that promise, unfortunately. Zuckerberg will no doubt survive whatever consensus is reached, although I seriously doubt there will be one.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:40, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

I'd say it's more extreme. Given that Zuckerberg had "Ethnicity:Jewish" in his infobox for a long time (which I found a little strange, but ok) and you seemed to have no problem with it until now. I proposed this as a compromise between the two feuding sides on this issue - but you reverted it out of the article, even though you said that, even in your opinion, it didn't violate BLPcat. Now, if you hadn't reverted it, the discussion would have been over, since most editors seemed satisfied with that idea. Therefore, I think it's fair to view your actions as disruptive, and yourself by extension. Misplaced Pages has gotten more extreme on this issue in general. I remember when I was starting out, people were having debates about whether to describe people born to Jewish fathers and non-Jewish mothers as Jewish, and storylines of that sort. I can't recall any debates about whether people born to two Jewish parents, and who do not practice a faith other than Judaism, can be described as Jewish. That seemed, understandably, a given. Now, such debates are commonplace, thanks in part to you (but not exclusively to you). What a strange shift, and how wasteful to time, energy, and common sense. All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 17:48, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

You're forcing me to do a lot of work looking back at the history of the Zuckerberg article. In spot-checking the last 6 months, you are correct that Jewish ethnicity was in the infobox. The Jewish-related cats have undergone many shifts, but I didn't check who did what when (except see below). As for removal of Jewish ethnicity from the infobox after the period of "stability", that was not done by me. It was done by another editor on May 10 here. Without laboriously looking at the complete history, what triggered the tortured discussion on the Zuckerberg Talk page happened many days later when Wikifan added the Jewish cat (not the ethnicity), and I did in fact revert. That discussion then expanded into the ethnicity issue, causing me to focus on it again. How you can call any of this "highly disruptive" on my part is beyond me, but whatever, you've said in the past we almost never agree on anything, so it shouldn't surprise me.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:05, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

I know you didn't remove the ethnicity thing in early May. That was someone else. But you removed it twice now, even though my strong sense was that it would have neutralized the discussion (Wikifan seemed pleased with it, for one). We almost never agree on anything? Well, we did agree on something in August 2010, when your opinion on this "issue" seemed rational and fact-based. All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 18:11, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Sure, I've removed it since because of the discussion, but I don't think my views have changed, although they may have refined a bit as I've learned more about Misplaced Pages's rules. As for the Goldwyn discussion, that was about cats, not about ethnicity in the infobox. As for not agreeing, it's something I vaguely recall your saying a long time ago when we butted heads over something. I ain't looking for it as it's really not all that important. I just wish you'd stick to substance without resorting to characterizing my conduct, but you're not the only editor who does this.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:18, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

I think your personal views on this issue are relevant, since you keep citing them ("Some characteristics of human beings are genetic. I am unaware of any Jewish gene"). I cite Newsweek and The New York Times, and you cite... yourself. There is a difference. Are we talking about the infobox now or the categories? If it's the infobox, why are we here, considering you admitted that even under your own interpretation of it, BLPcat wouldn't effect "Ethnicity" in infobox. My main point is that if you hadn't reverted the compromise addition, the discussion would have likely already ended, since Wikifan seemed satisfied with the compromise and you hadn't touched that part of the infobox either, previously. All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 18:29, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Your "main point" got a bit lost in your attack on me. Your point about personal views is too complicated for me to respond to, or at least I don't have the energy or the will. I've said everything I have to say here and on the Zuckerberg Talk page. Consensus will be reached or it won't. The article will be whatever the last edit to it is, even in the absence of consensus. Whatever happens, this won't be the last time the subject comes up for this article or for others. I'm going to very belatedly keep my promise to myself and suck myself out.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:40, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

If you really mean that last part, then that's something else we can both jointly endorse. All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 18:42, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

All right, so we're agreed that Zuckerberg can include an American Jew/Jewish atheist cat or Jewish as ethnicity? Wikifan 00:52, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

No, we are not agreed that this is a candidate for the American Jew category. Zuckerburg is a living person and has said he is an atheist. --John (talk) 22:03, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

John—why not just abide by what reliable sources say? They all say that Mark Zuckerberg is a Jew. And not one source says that he is not a Jew. Shouldn't that settle it, for Misplaced Pages purposes? You mention that Zuckerberg is an "atheist" but what does that have to do with him being a Jew? We have an article Jewish atheism. Believing in God is not essential to being a Jew. Do you happen to have a source that might support a notion that being an atheist somehow disqualifies one from being a Jew? Bus stop (talk) 02:29, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

John is entitled to his beliefs but editors are obligated to include information reported by an RS. Zuckerberg is an American Jew, he is an ethnic Jew. He doesn't practice Judaism, neither does Natalie Portman and millions of other Jews worldwide. This whole "Jewish descent" fascination is getting quite old and is not supported by BLPCAT. Wikifan 10:27, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

BLPCAT requires self-identification. Having a reliable source which says that he is a Jew doesn't mean that you are allowed to put him in a category of Jews. You'll need to find a source where he calls himself one. Furthermore, we may only use the category if being a Jew is related to his notability, which it isn't. And editors are not obliged to include information from a reliable source; a reliable source is necessary for inclusion, but it's not always sufficient. Something may be in a reliable source and still have to be excluded for other reasons. Ken Arromdee (talk) 04:11, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Ken Arromdee—I think there is an underlying illogic. Note that for instance in this edit the individual is being removed from Category:American Jews and being placed in Category:Jewish atheists. Wouldn't the same logic be applicable to those two categories? What logic would argue for him being in one and not the other? Bus stop (talk) 13:45, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Ken - reliable sources have identified Zuckerberg as being one of the world's most influential Jews. Since it's quite clear blpcat doesn't apply to ethnicities, the argument of "self-identification" is invalid. Wikifan 05:11, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

The rationale for BLPCAT is that category names don't contain disclaimers or modifiers. If the category can be either an ethnicity or a religion, the rationale described in BLPCAT would be true: the category name doesn't contain a modifier stating that it only refers to ethnicity. So BLPCAT's rationale would apply, and it would fall under BLPCAT. Ken Arromdee (talk) 16:04, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

BLPCAT does not apply to ethnicity or race, as indicated here. We've already gone through these same identical arguments, multiple times. Wikifan 21:16, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Jeremy Wade

Jeremy Wade (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Jeremy Wade was born March 23, 1956...not May 5th. This was confirmed on Icon Films, Bristol website. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.30.103.182 (talk) 17:20, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Hi - have you got a link to the related website ? - IMO he is not independently notable enough to require a Misplaced Pages biography, the article as such is primary promotional content, no independent reliable sources have reported about him, which is a bigger problem than what specific day in 1956 he was born on. As a person of limited independant note he should imo and interpretation of[REDACTED] guidelines be a redirect to his primary notability , which is River Monsters - and also looks promotional to me as does the related Icon Films - all promotional imo - Misplaced Pages is not a TV quide etc... I made some edits , mostly related to uncited, and neutrality and promotion and cut it in half - Youreallycan 17:49, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

• Having searched for sources I agree, and I've now redirected his biography-stub to the "River Monsters" article. If in-depth coverage about him should be published in reliable third-party independent sources in the future, the case for a standalone biography article can be re-examined. --92.6.202.54 (talk) 20:28, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Armstrong & Getty

Armstrong & Getty (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

This article is about an AM radio morning show that covers most of Northern CA. The hosts continually invite listeners to "spice up" or "vandalize" the article, leading to outrageous edits such as this most recent diff and this diff chosen at random. I don't know how to address this. Maybe semi protection to discourage anonymous IPs?--William Thweatt | 18:58, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Pending changes would work but is as yet not available - you can ask for WP:Semi protection at WP:RFPP but some Admins are supporters of open editing and will refuse unless vandalism or defamation is at a high level - - I made some edits, mostly related to uncited, promotion and NPOV, and cut it to a third. Youreallycan 19:52, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Protected 90 days due to outside encouragement of vandalism, and a history of vandalism. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 18:40, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Daniel Mattes

Daniel Mattes (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

The article is written like beeing a PR for Daniel Mattes. Several sources are not reliable. Comments like "Bill Gates of the Alps" are not objective. Instead of linking an original source of a newspaper there are links to Daniel Mattes own flickr account.

Salzburger Fenster is a very local magazine. Beeing there on the list of 100 most important people is not worth mentioning in an international encyclopedia. Also this cite was written that it reads like he was 54th most important citicen of Austria, which is wrong, as he was just on the list for Salzburg.

The whole article lacks objectivity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.26.99.61 (talk) 13:51, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

This is a difficult issue to deal with. There are a lot of references, but in many cases they do not support the content. (Example: this was used to support the notion that he had worked with the NY Times...) I've removed some of it, but it still reads like a promotional/PR thing. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:12, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

The word is "puff." And I depuffed a tad more. Collect (talk) 19:22, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Bernhard Goetz

Bernhard Goetz (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Overview: It looks like there is a concerted effort to insert unsourced accusations of animal abuse at Bernhard Goetz. One of the editors fighting against this claims to be Bernhard Goetz.

Examples:

User:RRassendyll says things on Talk:Bernhard Goetz that clearly violate our BLP policy

User:RRassendyll inserts the same BLP-violating material at Bernhard Goetz

172.129.57.123 reverts

172.129.57.123 posts to Bernhard Goetz, claims to be "Bernie Goetz"

162.83.220.208 inserts the same BLP-violating material at Bernhard Goetz

User:Djenner files a case at WP:DRN naming User:R. Rassendyll and User:Bernhard Goetz I close it because neither user exists. (Note: "Rudolf Rassendyll" is a fictional character from The Prisoner of Zenda)

User:Djenner argues for inclusion of material despite failing WP:V

There is a lot more going on, but it's hard to follow because of shifting IPs and users editing while not logged on. --Guy Macon (talk) 01:33, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

The New York Times article (Ref #79) about Goetz' squirrel rescue activities appears to be a reliable secondary source. #79 covers the information about squirrel rescue currently in the article. #80 is a blog that does not appear to be a reliable secondary source. #80 does not talk about squirrel rescue. The complained- about edits appear to be original research and are not based on reliable secondary sources. They should not be included in the article unless reliable secondary sources can be found to support the information.Coaster92 (talk) 05:47, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Wow, Bernie Goetz is still alive? For some reason I thought he was older than that. — The Hand That Feeds You: 13:24, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Surprised me too, especially the part about squirrel rescue. On the one hand we have a bunch of editors trying to insert claims based on "personal conversation" that he tortures animals. On the other hand we have this unsourced gem from today's version of the article: "He installs squirrel houses, feeds squirrels, performs first aid, and treats squirrels better than official 'rehabilitators'."

No citations, no "X claims that", just an assertion that he treats squirrels better than official "rehabilitators" (with scary quotes, just to pound home the fact that Misplaced Pages declares those official rehabilitators to be somehow not legitimate). Check back tomorrow and the article might once again contain an unsourced quote where Goetz supposedly said "I love little animals, so I must punish them when they are bad."

I just noticed this mess in passing. I am not willing to devote a lot of time to monitoring and correcting an article about someone I have zero interest in. I thought about posting a report to WP:COIN, but stopping Goetz from editing his own article would give those who want to demonize him free reign. Is there anything I can do to address the problems, or should I just write it off and move on? --Guy Macon (talk) 16:25, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Reading it myself, it sounds to me like the "Bernard Goetz" editor is a troll pretending to be Goetz. Ken Arromdee (talk) 15:56, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Clive Owen

• Clive Owen (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

We could use some input on this article. We have an IP who is insisting because one person referred to this actor as Clive Warren that "He is sometimes called Clive Warren" and that fact should be included in the lede. If in you examination of this you feel that the info is notable just leave a note here and I will accept your judgement(s) on the matter. Thanks in advance for your time in looking at this. MarnetteD | Talk 19:21, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

No, it's not notable or anything we should mention in the article. Once by one person is not "sometimes called/mistaken for" (even if somebody else mentions that occurrence). Plus that person may've been joking anyway. If you want a rationale page to point to, WP:WELLKNOWN or WP:NOTPEOPLEMAGAZINE‎ probably suffice.-92.6.202.54 (talk) 19:31, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

When does something become notable? This was not just a passing conversation between three people, this was the subject of a podcast and then adapted into an episode of a television show (Titled "Clive Warren" and also mentioned on the Rebecca De Mornay Misplaced Pages page. Many people spent time putting this show together outside of the three people discussing "Clive Warren." I would not put the subject of a simple conversation into Misplaced Pages. If information like "Clive Owen likes a particular band and went to their concert a couple times" is notable then how is "Another British entertainer (a notable one, I am sure) devoting a whole television episode to this subject" not notable? Perhaps my placement of this information was incorrect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.132.184.130 (talk) 10:45, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Generally speaking, a thing becomes notable through being covered by multiple independent reliable-sources. An example is Joe the Plumber. The information you give is different from what you said before: "Not a joke, he was mistaken for Clive Warren. This is a fact". It's a single podcast–television show, with variations for each medium. As far as I can see, it amounts to a single comedian bouncing off his straight man (or two). It does appear to be a joke not a mistake, since it's hard to believe the show aired before anyone involved discovered the mixup. The De Mornay page does have it yes, with a citation needed tag. If something like this was included, it would be in a cultural references section or perhaps recognition section. It wouldn't be in the lead. A lead covers the article's main points, and this isn't key to understanding the subject. Your new information that the name of the show was "Clive Warren", and it was the central or overriding focus of the show rather than addressed by one skit or passing mention, does alter its significance slightly. Although in my view it's not at all essential to the article, a mention may be okay. However, it wouldn't be a mention in the lead or present as fact that he's mistaken for Warren, sometimes or otherwise. Inclusion would be down to editorial discretion, and consensus among editors of the page. I don't have a strong opinion; I'll ask MarnetteD to return to this thread. We include stuff like his musical tastes in the Personal life section to address who the subject is as a person, to provide a more rounded biography. Try not to take disagreement over article content personally by the way, it's not a personal criticism. --92.6.202.54 (talk) 19:30, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

207 please read WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS as it is a good place to learn that just because one "item" is in an article it doesn't mean that others belong. Having said that a brief - well sourced - mention in the body of the article might be possible. I will warn you though that this feels like a "pop culture" item to me and you may find that other editors will remove it as such. MarnetteD | Talk 20:43, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

I have only just noticed 207's attempt to remove this thread here I would suggest that you not do that kind of thing in the future 207. It does tend to leave other editors with the impression that you are acting in "bad faith". Such actions do not help in any editing that you are trying to pursue. MarnetteD | Talk 20:48, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Stan Jolley

Stan Jolley (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I am Stan Jolley's son-in-law. I have tried twice to correct and add information to the Misplaced Pages profile on Stan Jolley. This includes information about his death on 6/4/12 and additions to his credits in the film industry. User "Lugnuts" has twice reverted my work. I believe he is calling for citations. I and my wife, Stan's heir, are the source regarding his death. We have not published his obituary yet. As for his film credits, he supplied them to me on paper - the same credits he supplied IMDB and are published there. I noted that on my revision, but Lugnuts chose to ignore and change the bio back. Since Stan Jolley is the source on himself, and I am the source for info on his passing, how is this a violation of the terms regarding biographys? How can I get my work put back permanently? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Blaisen (talk • contribs) 00:52, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

While we appreciate that you want to help us get his credits correct, information on Misplaced Pages should be cited to a published Reliable Source (RS) available to the public (books, magazines, newspapers, and websites) that have 1) editorial oversight and 2) a deserved reputation for fact checking, not personal observations and recollections (see Misplaced Pages:No original research#Primary, secondary and tertiary sources) Since you know the correct information, you could find and provide a RS that gets it correct (see Misplaced Pages:Identifying reliable sources). Neither IMDb, nor Misplaced Pages itself, for that matter, are acceptable as reliable sources. Since you've identified your nearness to the subject (see Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest), if you are able to cite published references, you should consider posting them on the article's talk page so that an unbiased editor can add the material. Dru of Id (talk) 06:14, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

I have replied on Blaisen's talkpage, but had no reply. Surely this would have some coverage in the local press? Lugnuts (talk) 06:53, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Vint Cerf

Vint Cerf (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

He is now listed as British computer scientist not American. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.77.33.59 (talk) 16:09, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Just changed, all reliable references show that he was born in New Haven Conneticut. NO sources were shown or added in to say otherwise. I've also left a note on the page of the individual that made the change. The name of the place is....-Babylon-5-> 17:10, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

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