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| ::::::::::In fact, it was ''not'' deleted, because your interpretation of policy was not found to be normative. The most important thing to learn in Misplaced Pages is that no one--''no'' one--is ever "right" all of the time, and that even when you're clearly convinced of the properness of your own position, it will often not be persuasive. ''That'' is why impeccable conduct, on everyone's part, is so important, because we will be revisiting similar topics in the future. ] (]) 00:32, 14 June 2012 (UTC) | ::::::::::In fact, it was ''not'' deleted, because your interpretation of policy was not found to be normative. The most important thing to learn in Misplaced Pages is that no one--''no'' one--is ever "right" all of the time, and that even when you're clearly convinced of the properness of your own position, it will often not be persuasive. ''That'' is why impeccable conduct, on everyone's part, is so important, because we will be revisiting similar topics in the future. ] (]) 00:32, 14 June 2012 (UTC) | ||
| :::::::::::Thank you for your support, the third one will be the good one, then.] (]) 09:04, 14 June 2012 (UTC) | :::::::::::Thank you for your support, the third one will be the good one, then.] (]) 09:04, 14 June 2012 (UTC) | ||
| ::::::::::::The third ''what''? Are you suggesting that you're already plotting to re-nominate a fictional element that was kept ''twice'' at AfD? Please do remember that policies are normative, not prescriptive, so "but this should be the logical outcome!" can in fact be a disruptive argument. If it's been kept twice, it may be the particular phrasing of the independence clause that is at odds with actual community practice. Since that's one of the bases on which I believe it should be kept, though, that well could be biased thinking on my part. Have you already read my personal essay, linked above, on the notability of fictional elements? ] (]) 17:06, 14 June 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Right Jclemens, that's why I got so upset. I did something that I thought was in good faith (wasn't trying to get keep votes, was trying to get more sources) but because it ''looked'' like I was doing something bad even thought I thought I had a good explanation, I got raked over the coals for it like I'm some kind of devious criminal. Then the same person turns around and does something which looks similar on the surface and I point out that it looks suspicious - in the same manner he had done - and I get threats and accusations of my own supposed impropriety in response. I'm familiar with the sort of thinking, though - my wife ''has to be right'' all the time, too, so I'm going to let this slide. ] (]) 16:18, 13 June 2012 (UTC) | :::::::::Right Jclemens, that's why I got so upset. I did something that I thought was in good faith (wasn't trying to get keep votes, was trying to get more sources) but because it ''looked'' like I was doing something bad even thought I thought I had a good explanation, I got raked over the coals for it like I'm some kind of devious criminal. Then the same person turns around and does something which looks similar on the surface and I point out that it looks suspicious - in the same manner he had done - and I get threats and accusations of my own supposed impropriety in response. I'm familiar with the sort of thinking, though - my wife ''has to be right'' all the time, too, so I'm going to let this slide. ] (]) 16:18, 13 June 2012 (UTC) | ||
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Welcome, correspondents
If you're here because I deleted an article you think should be undeleted, please read this first and remember--Most of the time, I didn't write the text that appears in the deletion summary.
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You may have your hands full and have no need to chime in, but I did mention you (without naming you) at a new thread at ANI to which I was invited. JJB 19:37, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for the notification. Jclemens-public (talk) 20:00, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
RfC: Should the summary style guideline quote WP:Notability and if so in what place
You are invited to join the discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:Summary_style#RfC: Should the summary style guideline quote WP:Notability and if so in what place.
This RfC is to decide the business JJB has wanted. I added a third option that I believe reflects your concerns about the matter. Dmcq (talk) 19:16, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
- I've responded there, thanks. Jclemens (talk) 02:12, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
Ankheg
I see you came up with a number of sources in the last AFD, so I wanted to notify you that this one has been nominated again. 129.33.19.254 (talk) 17:30, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
- Noted and voted, but I trust you notified every past AfD participant, right? Jclemens (talk) 01:16, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
- Well, despite Folken de Fanel’s claims to the contrary, I was only contacting those who had provided sources in the previous AFD (you and Casliber) because I was hoping you might be able to find more. Since you think it is a good idea – and you asked nicely – I will notify participants in the previous AFD. 129.33.19.254 (talk) 14:10, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for that. See WP:CANVASS for a bit more on Misplaced Pages's expectations for notifications. While it might seem logical to only notify people who've actually provided sources, that might create an appearance of bias. Cheers, Jclemens (talk) 15:47, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
- Well, despite Folken de Fanel’s claims to the contrary, I was only contacting those who had provided sources in the previous AFD (you and Casliber) because I was hoping you might be able to find more. Since you think it is a good idea – and you asked nicely – I will notify participants in the previous AFD. 129.33.19.254 (talk) 14:10, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
Now who is canvassing? 129.33.19.254 (talk) 20:18, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- As I said to the IP, I'm merely notifying participants in a similar AfD about another D&D monster, all the other users not notified by me have already expressed themselves in the Ankheg AfD, otherwise I would have also notified them. Seeing how the IP is starting to notify unrelated users about this, I think that what could be seen as "involuntary canvassing" before is now starting to turn into a harassment case.Folken de Fanel (talk) 20:45, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- My contention was that - despite Folken's claims that he was only notifying users on one AFD who had not taken part in another AFD - his reaching out to people was entirely partisan because all voted to delete. I sought out two administrators, the same two I had originally sought out for the Ankheg AFD for better sourcing, to weigh in on the issue. Just because I did something I only later realize I should not have done, does not give a critic the right to "balance the scales". 129.33.19.254 (talk) 20:53, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- I will not explain that a third time (well, fourth, actually, since I already said that on the IP's talk page), all the other users not notified by me have already expressed themselves in the Ankheg AfD, I wasn't going to notify them a second time, otherwise I would have contacted them also. There was nothing partisan in what I did, since all the users who have commented in Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Afanc (Dungeons & Dragons) at the time I write have been notified about the existence of Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Ankheg (2nd nomination), which is only logical since these are very similar topic and might interest the same people, and is perfectly neutral and unbiased. No notice has been sent based on contributors' opinion, but only on their earlier participation or not in a similar AfD.
That's the last thing I'll say on that issue since it's obvious that the IP is throwing groundless accusation in an attempt to get even with me for warning him about canvassing, and I trust Jclemens to solve this issue as it should be.Folken de Fanel (talk) 21:08, 12 June 2012 (UTC)- Yes, it is NOT improper for another editor to follow up partial notification by completing notification of prior AfD participants; if the second editor appears to have a selection bias in doing so, that would be a necessary consequence of the first editor having cherry-picked editors to notify. Bottom line? Notify one, notify all, and let consensus be determined fairly. Jclemens-public (talk) 22:00, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- The problem here might be that Folken was inviting people from the Afanc AFD to the Ankheg AFD. I suppose the fact that only the "delete" voters were left to notify was as "convenient" for him as the fact that nearly all of the "delete" voters from Ankheg AFD 1 had gone inactive. Oh well, it's probably a tempest in a teapot, and I will drop the subject. SudoGhost raised the concern in the Afanc AFD already, so I guess I am not the only one who looked at this activity with suspicion. 129.33.19.254 (talk) 22:05, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- Afanc and Ankheg are different monsters. I agree that while they should be DELSORT'ed appropriately, inviting participants from one to the other is questionable, especially since Afanc has seen a preponderance of Delete !votes. Still, having opined in one AfD, I am not going to take any administrator action with respect to either. WP:ANI would be the place to ask for an uninvolved admin review if desired. Jclemens (talk) 23:29, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- Afanc and Ankheg are both D&D monsters, so it's the same topic ("monsters in D&D"). Notifying "editors who have participated in previous discussions on the same topic (or closely related topics)" is an "appropriate behavior" according to WP:CAN. There is nothing "questionable", and "preponderance of delete !voters" is a non-argument, I certainly did not force anyone to take part to the Afanc AfD and did not pick it up for a "preponderance", since it was the only other D&D-related AfD going on at that time. Anyone is free to go to WP:ANI, but without a case it only seems a waste of time to me...Folken de Fanel (talk) 00:44, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
- It's not a non-argument. You've accused the IP of canvassing, and then turned around and found a partisan audience to invite to a discussion you were losing. The reason I didn't vote in the Afanc AfD, even though it's delsort'ed similarly, is that I didn't disagree with the debate at the time I saw it. An Ankheg is clearly more notable than an Afanc, which I'd never heard of despite a good decade of playing AD&D 1st edition. You pointed out that every keep !voter had already opined in the Ankheg AfD, so you tacitly admit only recruiting one side of a debate. Had you considered that the reason Ankheg will be kept and Afanc not is that they're not as identical as you have portrayed? Your behavior in this matter leaves a good bit to be desired. Jclemens (talk) 04:34, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
- I didn't found a partisan audiance. It happens that another D&D monster-related AfD popped up, as per WP:CAN it was appropriate to notify its participants to another, similar AfD. It also happens that those who hadn't !voted yet in Ankheg were delete !voters, but this was unrelated to the notifications. All !voters of Afanc have been notified of the existence of Ankheg in one way or another. I don't admit recruiting one side of the debate, I just notified people who might be interested in a similar Afd, I just looked at the list of participants and notified those who didn't seem to be aware of Ankheg before, independently of their !votes. You'll note that I didn't notify either Sangrolu or Torchiest, who have !voted redirect Afanc, so you cannot accuse me "recuiting one side", since these two are part of the "delete" side. As for ankheg, it will be deleted as it's not notable, but I don't really see the point of discussing that here.Folken de Fanel (talk) 08:37, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
- In fact, it was not deleted, because your interpretation of policy was not found to be normative. The most important thing to learn in Misplaced Pages is that no one--no one--is ever "right" all of the time, and that even when you're clearly convinced of the properness of your own position, it will often not be persuasive. That is why impeccable conduct, on everyone's part, is so important, because we will be revisiting similar topics in the future. Jclemens (talk) 00:32, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you for your support, the third one will be the good one, then.Folken de Fanel (talk) 09:04, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
- The third what? Are you suggesting that you're already plotting to re-nominate a fictional element that was kept twice at AfD? Please do remember that policies are normative, not prescriptive, so "but this should be the logical outcome!" can in fact be a disruptive argument. If it's been kept twice, it may be the particular phrasing of the independence clause that is at odds with actual community practice. Since that's one of the bases on which I believe it should be kept, though, that well could be biased thinking on my part. Have you already read my personal essay, linked above, on the notability of fictional elements? Jclemens-public (talk) 17:06, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you for your support, the third one will be the good one, then.Folken de Fanel (talk) 09:04, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
- In fact, it was not deleted, because your interpretation of policy was not found to be normative. The most important thing to learn in Misplaced Pages is that no one--no one--is ever "right" all of the time, and that even when you're clearly convinced of the properness of your own position, it will often not be persuasive. That is why impeccable conduct, on everyone's part, is so important, because we will be revisiting similar topics in the future. Jclemens (talk) 00:32, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
- Right Jclemens, that's why I got so upset. I did something that I thought was in good faith (wasn't trying to get keep votes, was trying to get more sources) but because it looked like I was doing something bad even thought I thought I had a good explanation, I got raked over the coals for it like I'm some kind of devious criminal. Then the same person turns around and does something which looks similar on the surface and I point out that it looks suspicious - in the same manner he had done - and I get threats and accusations of my own supposed impropriety in response. I'm familiar with the sort of thinking, though - my wife has to be right all the time, too, so I'm going to let this slide. 129.33.19.254 (talk) 16:18, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
- I didn't found a partisan audiance. It happens that another D&D monster-related AfD popped up, as per WP:CAN it was appropriate to notify its participants to another, similar AfD. It also happens that those who hadn't !voted yet in Ankheg were delete !voters, but this was unrelated to the notifications. All !voters of Afanc have been notified of the existence of Ankheg in one way or another. I don't admit recruiting one side of the debate, I just notified people who might be interested in a similar Afd, I just looked at the list of participants and notified those who didn't seem to be aware of Ankheg before, independently of their !votes. You'll note that I didn't notify either Sangrolu or Torchiest, who have !voted redirect Afanc, so you cannot accuse me "recuiting one side", since these two are part of the "delete" side. As for ankheg, it will be deleted as it's not notable, but I don't really see the point of discussing that here.Folken de Fanel (talk) 08:37, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
- It's not a non-argument. You've accused the IP of canvassing, and then turned around and found a partisan audience to invite to a discussion you were losing. The reason I didn't vote in the Afanc AfD, even though it's delsort'ed similarly, is that I didn't disagree with the debate at the time I saw it. An Ankheg is clearly more notable than an Afanc, which I'd never heard of despite a good decade of playing AD&D 1st edition. You pointed out that every keep !voter had already opined in the Ankheg AfD, so you tacitly admit only recruiting one side of a debate. Had you considered that the reason Ankheg will be kept and Afanc not is that they're not as identical as you have portrayed? Your behavior in this matter leaves a good bit to be desired. Jclemens (talk) 04:34, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
- Afanc and Ankheg are both D&D monsters, so it's the same topic ("monsters in D&D"). Notifying "editors who have participated in previous discussions on the same topic (or closely related topics)" is an "appropriate behavior" according to WP:CAN. There is nothing "questionable", and "preponderance of delete !voters" is a non-argument, I certainly did not force anyone to take part to the Afanc AfD and did not pick it up for a "preponderance", since it was the only other D&D-related AfD going on at that time. Anyone is free to go to WP:ANI, but without a case it only seems a waste of time to me...Folken de Fanel (talk) 00:44, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
- Afanc and Ankheg are different monsters. I agree that while they should be DELSORT'ed appropriately, inviting participants from one to the other is questionable, especially since Afanc has seen a preponderance of Delete !votes. Still, having opined in one AfD, I am not going to take any administrator action with respect to either. WP:ANI would be the place to ask for an uninvolved admin review if desired. Jclemens (talk) 23:29, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- The problem here might be that Folken was inviting people from the Afanc AFD to the Ankheg AFD. I suppose the fact that only the "delete" voters were left to notify was as "convenient" for him as the fact that nearly all of the "delete" voters from Ankheg AFD 1 had gone inactive. Oh well, it's probably a tempest in a teapot, and I will drop the subject. SudoGhost raised the concern in the Afanc AFD already, so I guess I am not the only one who looked at this activity with suspicion. 129.33.19.254 (talk) 22:05, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, it is NOT improper for another editor to follow up partial notification by completing notification of prior AfD participants; if the second editor appears to have a selection bias in doing so, that would be a necessary consequence of the first editor having cherry-picked editors to notify. Bottom line? Notify one, notify all, and let consensus be determined fairly. Jclemens-public (talk) 22:00, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- I will not explain that a third time (well, fourth, actually, since I already said that on the IP's talk page), all the other users not notified by me have already expressed themselves in the Ankheg AfD, I wasn't going to notify them a second time, otherwise I would have contacted them also. There was nothing partisan in what I did, since all the users who have commented in Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Afanc (Dungeons & Dragons) at the time I write have been notified about the existence of Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Ankheg (2nd nomination), which is only logical since these are very similar topic and might interest the same people, and is perfectly neutral and unbiased. No notice has been sent based on contributors' opinion, but only on their earlier participation or not in a similar AfD.
- My contention was that - despite Folken's claims that he was only notifying users on one AFD who had not taken part in another AFD - his reaching out to people was entirely partisan because all voted to delete. I sought out two administrators, the same two I had originally sought out for the Ankheg AFD for better sourcing, to weigh in on the issue. Just because I did something I only later realize I should not have done, does not give a critic the right to "balance the scales". 129.33.19.254 (talk) 20:53, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
warning logged at R&I?
shows me under R&I sanction - though I have not posted in that area AFAICT at all. The alleged claim that I 'hounded" Mathsci by suggesting trouts is outre - and sanctions when I showed no sign of doing such "hounding" (examine the number of overlaps we have and you will dfind no such acts) seems outre - especially since the entire "case" was based on 2 admins alone -- there seems to be no way to remove the sanction short of going to ArbCom (sigh). Meanwhile I assure I have not "hounded" anyone at all, and I am pretty well known for my belief that 90% of the stuff on those noticeboards is not valuable to Misplaced Pages at all. Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:13, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- The good news is that R&I notifications are not sanctions, and are generally not going to be relevant if you've neither edited nor plan on editing in that area. Are you interested in an ArbCom finding that the conduct prompting the notification was, in fact, unconnected to R&I? That seems like it might be overkill to me. Jclemens-public (talk) 22:02, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- The request that it be logged at R&I (the post here , and then which I found quite insulting and indicative of "I got what I wanted, and you can say nothing about it"-itis) was quickly acted upon by FP (I actually get some sleep at night) -- though the "evidence" of me "hounding" a person with whom I have had very few contacts ever was weird in the extreme <g> and based on me responding to a noticeboard where my name had been, in fact, mentioned. Oh also note where the editor then hounds me by posting at FPs UT page LOL! I was amused by the thought that making a post in a section on a noticeboard when one has been mentioned can be considered "hounding" by anyone at all <g> and usually "hounding" does not involve telling folks to have a cup of tea -- but I suppose this is where Misplaced Pages is headed. I had rather thought "hounding" meant having lots of interactions with a person with an implicit or explicit rationale of seeking to have them leave the project, which a cup of tea ought not do. Thanks. Collect (talk) 11:40, 13 June 2012 (UTC) Appending: I do not keep any sort of list of those whom I have run across -- but I wondered at that editor's vehemence -- looks like if anyone is "hounding" it is he -- see etc. over a period of years I seem to have attracted his attention far more than he ever attracted mine (he did object in a Larouche WQA section that he found my saying he agreed with me to be "rude" but that is hardly a reason for his posts about me <g>) Offer him some Guinness - that should work? Collect (talk) 12:07, 13 June 2012 (UTC)