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Welcome, correspondents If you're here because I deleted an article you think should be undeleted, please read this first and remember--Most of the time, I didn't write the text that appears in the deletion summary.
N.B. I don't respond well to either fawning or abuse. Talk to me like a peer, assume good faith, and you'll find I reciprocate in my helpfulness.

Functionary Assistance My ability to help as a checkuser, oversighter, or arbitrator in individual matters is currently limited by my positional and non-Misplaced Pages obligations. For non-trivial assistance, especially that which requires extensive consideration of private correspondence, you will likely get a faster response by asking another functionary.

Position Essays may help you understand my point of view with regard to...

• Notability of Fictional Topics
• Articles for Deletion
• Blocks
• My RfA Standards

Administrator Goals Doing my best to improve the tiny little wedge in the top center:

Ankheg

I see you came up with a number of sources in the last AFD, so I wanted to notify you that this one has been nominated again. 129.33.19.254 (talk) 17:30, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Noted and voted, but I trust you notified every past AfD participant, right? Jclemens (talk) 01:16, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, despite Folken de Fanel’s claims to the contrary, I was only contacting those who had provided sources in the previous AFD (you and Casliber) because I was hoping you might be able to find more. Since you think it is a good idea – and you asked nicely – I will notify participants in the previous AFD. 129.33.19.254 (talk) 14:10, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for that. See WP:CANVASS for a bit more on Misplaced Pages's expectations for notifications. While it might seem logical to only notify people who've actually provided sources, that might create an appearance of bias. Cheers, Jclemens (talk) 15:47, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Now who is canvassing? 129.33.19.254 (talk) 20:18, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

As I said to the IP, I'm merely notifying participants in a similar AfD about another D&D monster, all the other users not notified by me have already expressed themselves in the Ankheg AfD, otherwise I would have also notified them. Seeing how the IP is starting to notify unrelated users about this, I think that what could be seen as "involuntary canvassing" before is now starting to turn into a harassment case.Folken de Fanel (talk) 20:45, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

My contention was that - despite Folken's claims that he was only notifying users on one AFD who had not taken part in another AFD - his reaching out to people was entirely partisan because all voted to delete. I sought out two administrators, the same two I had originally sought out for the Ankheg AFD for better sourcing, to weigh in on the issue. Just because I did something I only later realize I should not have done, does not give a critic the right to "balance the scales". 129.33.19.254 (talk) 20:53, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

I will not explain that a third time (well, fourth, actually, since I already said that on the IP's talk page), all the other users not notified by me have already expressed themselves in the Ankheg AfD, I wasn't going to notify them a second time, otherwise I would have contacted them also. There was nothing partisan in what I did, since all the users who have commented in Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Afanc (Dungeons & Dragons) at the time I write have been notified about the existence of Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Ankheg (2nd nomination), which is only logical since these are very similar topic and might interest the same people, and is perfectly neutral and unbiased. No notice has been sent based on contributors' opinion, but only on their earlier participation or not in a similar AfD.
That's the last thing I'll say on that issue since it's obvious that the IP is throwing groundless accusation in an attempt to get even with me for warning him about canvassing, and I trust Jclemens to solve this issue as it should be.Folken de Fanel (talk) 21:08, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it is NOT improper for another editor to follow up partial notification by completing notification of prior AfD participants; if the second editor appears to have a selection bias in doing so, that would be a necessary consequence of the first editor having cherry-picked editors to notify. Bottom line? Notify one, notify all, and let consensus be determined fairly. Jclemens-public (talk) 22:00, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

The problem here might be that Folken was inviting people from the Afanc AFD to the Ankheg AFD. I suppose the fact that only the "delete" voters were left to notify was as "convenient" for him as the fact that nearly all of the "delete" voters from Ankheg AFD 1 had gone inactive. Oh well, it's probably a tempest in a teapot, and I will drop the subject. SudoGhost raised the concern in the Afanc AFD already, so I guess I am not the only one who looked at this activity with suspicion. 129.33.19.254 (talk) 22:05, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Afanc and Ankheg are different monsters. I agree that while they should be DELSORT'ed appropriately, inviting participants from one to the other is questionable, especially since Afanc has seen a preponderance of Delete !votes. Still, having opined in one AfD, I am not going to take any administrator action with respect to either. WP:ANI would be the place to ask for an uninvolved admin review if desired. Jclemens (talk) 23:29, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Afanc and Ankheg are both D&D monsters, so it's the same topic ("monsters in D&D"). Notifying "editors who have participated in previous discussions on the same topic (or closely related topics)" is an "appropriate behavior" according to WP:CAN. There is nothing "questionable", and "preponderance of delete !voters" is a non-argument, I certainly did not force anyone to take part to the Afanc AfD and did not pick it up for a "preponderance", since it was the only other D&D-related AfD going on at that time. Anyone is free to go to WP:ANI, but without a case it only seems a waste of time to me...Folken de Fanel (talk) 00:44, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

It's not a non-argument. You've accused the IP of canvassing, and then turned around and found a partisan audience to invite to a discussion you were losing. The reason I didn't vote in the Afanc AfD, even though it's delsort'ed similarly, is that I didn't disagree with the debate at the time I saw it. An Ankheg is clearly more notable than an Afanc, which I'd never heard of despite a good decade of playing AD&D 1st edition. You pointed out that every keep !voter had already opined in the Ankheg AfD, so you tacitly admit only recruiting one side of a debate. Had you considered that the reason Ankheg will be kept and Afanc not is that they're not as identical as you have portrayed? Your behavior in this matter leaves a good bit to be desired. Jclemens (talk) 04:34, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

I didn't found a partisan audiance. It happens that another D&D monster-related AfD popped up, as per WP:CAN it was appropriate to notify its participants to another, similar AfD. It also happens that those who hadn't !voted yet in Ankheg were delete !voters, but this was unrelated to the notifications. All !voters of Afanc have been notified of the existence of Ankheg in one way or another. I don't admit recruiting one side of the debate, I just notified people who might be interested in a similar Afd, I just looked at the list of participants and notified those who didn't seem to be aware of Ankheg before, independently of their !votes. You'll note that I didn't notify either Sangrolu or Torchiest, who have !voted redirect Afanc, so you cannot accuse me "recuiting one side", since these two are part of the "delete" side. As for ankheg, it will be deleted as it's not notable, but I don't really see the point of discussing that here.Folken de Fanel (talk) 08:37, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

In fact, it was not deleted, because your interpretation of policy was not found to be normative. The most important thing to learn in Misplaced Pages is that no one--no one--is ever "right" all of the time, and that even when you're clearly convinced of the properness of your own position, it will often not be persuasive. That is why impeccable conduct, on everyone's part, is so important, because we will be revisiting similar topics in the future. Jclemens (talk) 00:32, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your support, the third one will be the good one, then.Folken de Fanel (talk) 09:04, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

The third what? Are you suggesting that you're already plotting to re-nominate a fictional element that was kept twice at AfD? Please do remember that policies are normative, not prescriptive, so "but this should be the logical outcome!" can in fact be a disruptive argument. If it's been kept twice, it may be the particular phrasing of the independence clause that is at odds with actual community practice. Since that's one of the bases on which I believe it should be kept, though, that well could be biased thinking on my part. Have you already read my personal essay, linked above, on the notability of fictional elements? Jclemens-public (talk) 17:06, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

As you said, "no one--no one--is ever "right" all of the time, and that even when you're clearly convinced of the properness of your own position", and I find it particularly relevant in this case, since the article was kept only because the supporters were able to muster an army of D&D fans at a given time, and that at the time of this nomination, 99% of the "delete" !voters of the 1st AfD had retired. But be sure that there will be a time when D&D fans will fail to gather in a sufficient number. I've seen AfDs on fictional topics closing on "delete" after 5 nominations over 4 years. Since for you, AfDs are only a question of number at a given time and nothing else ("policies are not prescriptive" is your way of saying "yes, I know this article doesn't meet the GNG but I don't care because I can shout louder than you"), then I don't see why we couldn't play by the same rules as you do...Folken de Fanel (talk) 11:35, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

You ignore the fact that Ankheg should actually be in the encyclopedia because it's been around for 30+ years as a fictional monster, and Misplaced Pages, as a place where people turn to find such things, should show readers an appropriate article about it. If it's notable, that's a separate article. If it's not, that's a list entry. At no point should it ever be deleted, and people who argue for deletion after being presented with WP:ATD are the ones arguing against existing policies. By trying to "win", you're trying to make the encyclopedia poorer. You might benefit from reading another essay I started: WP:NIMEJclemens (talk) 03:44, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't see anywhere in WP:ATD that non-notable articles have to be merged instead of being deleted, only "could". This is my last message here, you obviously don't know what you're talking about and I don't want to waste my time...Folken de Fanel (talk) 10:01, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

"If the page can be improved, this should be solved through regular editing, rather than deletion." Regular editing includes merging or redirection, which do not require administrator tools. I'm sorry that you don't feel like you're learning here, because I will keep teaching you about how we serve the public by appropriately presenting fictional information in accordance with our pillars and guidelines, as long as you are open-minded enough to listen. Cheers, Jclemens (talk) 19:10, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Since policies are not prescriptive according to you, you shouldn't even be mentionning WP:ATD. If you consider Ankheg to be better off as a merge/redirect, you certainly don't need my permission to start the discussion.Folken de Fanel (talk) 22:38, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Right Jclemens, that's why I got so upset. I did something that I thought was in good faith (wasn't trying to get keep votes, was trying to get more sources) but because it looked like I was doing something bad even thought I thought I had a good explanation, I got raked over the coals for it like I'm some kind of devious criminal. Then the same person turns around and does something which looks similar on the surface and I point out that it looks suspicious - in the same manner he had done - and I get threats and accusations of my own supposed impropriety in response. I'm familiar with the sort of thinking, though - my wife has to be right all the time, too, so I'm going to let this slide. 129.33.19.254 (talk) 16:18, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

warning logged at R&I?

shows me under R&I sanction - though I have not posted in that area AFAICT at all. The alleged claim that I 'hounded" Mathsci by suggesting trouts is outre - and sanctions when I showed no sign of doing such "hounding" (examine the number of overlaps we have and you will dfind no such acts) seems outre - especially since the entire "case" was based on 2 admins alone -- there seems to be no way to remove the sanction short of going to ArbCom (sigh). Meanwhile I assure I have not "hounded" anyone at all, and I am pretty well known for my belief that 90% of the stuff on those noticeboards is not valuable to Misplaced Pages at all. Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:13, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

The good news is that R&I notifications are not sanctions, and are generally not going to be relevant if you've neither edited nor plan on editing in that area. Are you interested in an ArbCom finding that the conduct prompting the notification was, in fact, unconnected to R&I? That seems like it might be overkill to me. Jclemens-public (talk) 22:02, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

The request that it be logged at R&I (the post here , and then which I found quite insulting and indicative of "I got what I wanted, and you can say nothing about it"-itis) was quickly acted upon by FP (I actually get some sleep at night) -- though the "evidence" of me "hounding" a person with whom I have had very few contacts ever was weird in the extreme <g> and based on me responding to a noticeboard where my name had been, in fact, mentioned. Oh also note where the editor then hounds me by posting at FPs UT page LOL! I was amused by the thought that making a post in a section on a noticeboard when one has been mentioned can be considered "hounding" by anyone at all <g> and usually "hounding" does not involve telling folks to have a cup of tea -- but I suppose this is where Misplaced Pages is headed. I had rather thought "hounding" meant having lots of interactions with a person with an implicit or explicit rationale of seeking to have them leave the project, which a cup of tea ought not do. Thanks. Collect (talk) 11:40, 13 June 2012 (UTC) Appending: I do not keep any sort of list of those whom I have run across -- but I wondered at that editor's vehemence -- looks like if anyone is "hounding" it is he -- see etc. over a period of years I seem to have attracted his attention far more than he ever attracted mine (he did object in a Larouche WQA section that he found my saying he agreed with me to be "rude" but that is hardly a reason for his posts about me <g>) Offer him some Guinness - that should work? Collect (talk) 12:07, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

You might be better up bringing this up for a broader review. I don't deal very much with the required warnings, and while what happened to you seems pretty head-scratch-inducing to me, that doesn't mean that it might not be more usual than you or I realize. Jclemens (talk) 00:45, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Discussion at ANI on banning LPC

LouisPhilippeCharles (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

In the past you have been involved in a block/unblock procedure either on the sockmaster account of LouisPhilippeCharles or an account of one of the sockpuppets. Please see WP:ANI#LouisPhilippeCharles -- PBS (talk) 20:29, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the heads up, but I will generally not participate in such discussions unless I would already be recused were the matter to come before ArbCom. Cheers, Jclemens (talk) 23:38, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Bullying?

I am growing concerned about a current situation involving the behavior of another user, and wish to consult you before I approach that user. I am worried that this sort of thing may be indicative of an escalating pattern of threats, harassment, and intimidation against users with opinions contrary to his. This may need to ultimately lead to scrutiny by the community at large, although I wonder that I may be overreacting and that may be premature. What do you think? BOZ (talk) 14:32, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree that it's concerning. As you can see above, that same user has been pretty aggressively advocating a POV here on my talk page, and seems to be taking it very personally when his interpretation of notability with respect to role playing game fictional elements is not endorsed by the community. Having said that, I am absolutely never going to be intervening in any dispute about these matters as an administrator or an arbitrator, so there's nothing really I can do here except to agree that the conduct does seem to be bordering on battlefield conduct and not improving as things continue to not go his way. I'd encourage you to start trying a positive approach to coaching the user, as I did above, rather than immediately seek a dispute resolution route. Jclemens (talk) 05:32, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

I think the response was well handled, and like David, I agree that DR at this time may not be necessary but may be so in the future. What you suggest is more reasonable, so I will ponder how to approach that today. He does not seem to be listening so far to suggestions from his critics about modifying his approach, but hope springs eternal! ;) BOZ (talk) 12:25, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

I admit my behavior toward user David Shepard was harsh and accept your criticism, but I was acting with good faith per WP:AFDFORMAT which does state that comments in AfD consistently not based on policy or not justified enough can be seen by some as disruptive, and does encourage users to settle the issue. As I apparently don't have all the diplomatic qualities required to do so, I will let BOZ handle this as he seems to know David Shepeard better than me, and I'm convinced he will act with equity and also remind the user of WP:AFDFORMAT. As for Jclemens's accusation of "agressivity", this comment, in which I'm accused of "plotting" and being "disruptive" for using the right that all users have to renominate articles after a reasonable period of time, sounded like intimidation to me. That may not have been Jclemens's intention, but the words used weren't the most diplomatic I've ever seen either. So I'm sure we can all admit our own mistakes and act in a reasonable way.Folken de Fanel (talk) 14:20, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Actually, absent any real new reason for a re-nomination, yes, a "keep" nomination re-nominated for AfD for the exact same reason borders on WP:IDHT, especially a third one. It would be inappropriate to not point out to you that continuing to attempt to remove material that the community has judged worthy of inclusion is, at the very least, entirely unhelpful. Prior users who have displayed poor attitudes towards consensus and aggressively sought to remove such material have been sanctioned by the community in the past, up to the point of being banned from Misplaced Pages. I hope you don't follow in their footsteps, and to that end, I give you this advice: When the community tells you that you are wrong, you have the choice to listen, or to tell the community that it is wrong. I recommend the former. Jclemens (talk) 19:06, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

An addendum: users who have fervently and repeatedly sought to keep material at all costs have themselves been sanctioned by the community, up to and including bans, for that behavior as well. Thus, it's not so much about which side of a debate one is on, but rather the WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality. Jclemens (talk) 20:02, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, it's presomptuous to consider a few D&D fans as "community", especially given the numerous problems the last AfD had: closing administrator admitting to have taken it as head count and ignored deletion arguments, initial canvassing, and the fact that all the previous delete !voters were retired at the time, certainly don't speak in favor of an overwhelming consensus. A keep !voter was even on the point to change his recommendation to delete, so I'm not worried about having valid reasons to nominate. As far as content itself is concerned, contrary to you I've even done more research on the so-called sources and discovered that the founders of Bastion Press are all ex-WotC key employees (including former vice president) and that the books are not secondary but primary (as they are merely campain add-ons for D&D 3rd edition, as clearly written on the backcover), something to which you failed to reply last time.
You mention consensus, but last time I checked, consensus is not head count, and so D&D fans can be as numerous as they want, if they fail to produce a convincing argument they won't keep the articles. There are serious problems to discuss about this article, and you don't have any right to prevent the community from doing so.Folken de Fanel (talk) 09:09, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

If you're referring to the ankheg closure, I asked before where ScottyWong admitted that he used a head count to determine consensus, and I don't remember you providing any evidence of this. BOZ (talk) 15:40, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

In the talk page of the article.Folken de Fanel (talk) 18:18, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

My personal hypothesis is that the reason so many of the original delete !voters retired is because they were not committed to the Misplaced Pages culture of sharing information. Folks who hold WP:NIME viewpoints don't tend to last long, because they want to reshape Misplaced Pages, which tends to resist such individual efforts at reshaping. A small number of other editors with approaches such as yours have been banned, and a few of the new editors holding such viewpoints have been shown to be socks of previously banned deletionists. But at any rate "the sources are sufficient" is a policy-based argument, although one informed by the opinion of the editor holding it, and saying "the community got it wrong!" in the face of majority opposition is not a particularly compelling argument. Yes, head count isn't the be all and end all, but when the clear majority are saying one thing, and you are saying another... consensus is against you. Jclemens (talk) 18:30, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Question

What are the rules about doing an experiment where I create a new account and make a new article just to see the reaction from the community in regards to a notable subject being created by a new user? I know it's been done before, though I think the last time it was done, it was a part of a group test. Silverseren 19:53, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

WP:NEWT was not at all well received, although I simply remember the events unfolding rather than being involved with it in any way. Thus, I don't have any specific advice, but I would urge caution on any such future effort. Jclemens (talk) 20:00, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Looking over the talk page, it seems the issue was that the articles they ended up making were rather bad. So, in retrospect, so long as I make a good article, it should be fine. Silverseren 20:07, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Again, I'd encourage you to read through the talk pages and understand all of the community's objections. Also, consider the endgame: what are you trying to accomplish? How will this experiment prove or refute a hypothesis? My impression is that a significant part of the problem with NEWT was that people felt it was a NIGYYSOB sort of effort, rather than genuine research to find and fix problems. If you're dead set on doing this, I'd recommend emailing the "newbie" account name either me or the entire committee per WP:SOCK#NOTIFY. Jclemens (talk) 20:15, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

I was planning on doing that anyways. But the problem with the NIGYYSOB thing is that, what users and articles were involved has to be revealed at some point and the editors involved in negative actions against the new accounts are automatically going to feel that it was for a NIGYYSOB reason against them, even when it wasn't. I'm not sure if there's any real way to avoid that. Silverseren 20:24, 21 June 2012 (UTC)