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• A series of attacks by the National Liberation Army in the Catatumbo region of Colombia leaves more than a hundred people dead.

The number killed in Catatumbo is erroneous. The figure of 100 comes from France 24 but that is reporting "across three Colombian departments -- from the remote Amazon jungle in the south to the mountainous northeastern border with Venezuela". The breakdown seems to be 80 in the north and 20 in the south so 80+20=100. But these numbers seem to be rough estimates because these regions are quite wild. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:40, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Our article doesn't mention attacks outside of the Catatumbo region. Secretlondon (talk) 13:36, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

The lead of the article is inaccurate as it misrepresents the sources. It also doesn't explain who was attacked and why. This is not a quality article. Andrew🐉(talk) 17:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

• Looking for the latest news on this, I find that the BBC explains it as a feud between drug mafias over a lost stash. The lead of the article says nothing about drugs or the narco-cartel nature of the conflict. It's just a naïve "OMG, some people have been killed" and it still hasn't got the number right. Andrew🐉(talk) 11:12, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

• There probably should be some mention of the hotel name in the hotel blurb if we are naming the hotel via caption. Its clear going from blurb to image that that's the hotel, but in reverse (looking at image, trying to go back) leaves it a bit in the air to require deduction, even if our usual practice is to use an image for the first blurb. I recognize that the hotel name and ski resort name are not the same and that complicates matters. Masem (t) 13:02, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

  I don't agree actually. It's common practice at ITN to refer to a pictured thing by its specific name in the picture caption, even where that name is not used directly in the blurb. And given that (a) there is only one hotel-related blurb in the set, and (b) it clearly says (pictured) after "ski resort hotel", I see no need to change anything. The hotel itself isn't notable so it would be WP:UNDUE to include it in the blurb.  — Amakuru (talk) 13:15, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

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• (La Paz, Bolivia): should be "in La Paz, Bolivia". Locations are conventionally mentioned with "in", and years/calendars with brackets. Also, Bolivia should be unlinked as per MOS:OL and MOS:GEOLINK. — RAVENPVFF · talk · 00:04, 24 January 2025 (UTC)

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• Dwynwen (Wales); Tatiana Day (Russia): should be "Saint Dwynwen in Wales; Tatiana Day in Russia", for the same reasons as above. — RAVENPVFF · talk · 00:05, 24 January 2025 (UTC)

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Languages are not in English..

Who's bright idea was it to have all the languages in the side column of this and any other wiki-page written in their own language rather than English? If the whole Côte d'Ivoire vs. Ivory Coast thing has taught us anything, its that in an English Misplaced Pages, we must spell everything how an English-speaker would spell them. It's very confusing for me (and I'm assuming many others as well) to find a certain language in the list of languages... if I don't actually speak the language. I say we make them all English.. or at least make them English and them have the other titles in brackets.--Coin945 (talk) 15:17, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Obviously they're not in English, that would defeat the point. The idea is that if you are a speaker of some other language and want to read Misplaced Pages in that language then you can click on the link. If the link titles were to be written in English then non-English speakers wouldn't necessarily be able to find their language. The links to not exist for the convenience of English speakers and therefore should not be written in English. Hut 8.5 15:21, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

I disagree. In the French Misplaced Pages, the links should all be in French. In the German Misplaced Pages, in German. Etc. How is it of any use to us having a whole column of what is essentially gibberish to many people. I stand by my view that... at the very least we should have the languages in English, and then in their own language in brackets.--Coin945 (talk) 15:53, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Fortunately that is not how it is done, and so I can find interwikilinks to languages I understand even in wikis written in scripts I don't read. Also, it helps quite a lot to have this work the same on every wiki. —Kusma (t·c) 12:23, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

"if you are a speaker of some other language and want to read Misplaced Pages in that language", then why would you be scrolling through a language column on the English Misplaced Pages? If the answer is that the languages appear the same in every version of Misplaced Pages, then I think we have a problem...--Coin945 (talk) 15:55, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Suppose I do a Google search for something, and click on a link to the French Misplaced Pages. I want to read an article on that topic in English, so I look at the links to other languages at the side. If the links were written in French then I would not be able to find the appropriate one unless I happen to know that the French for "English" is "Anglais". Hence if your proposal were to be enacted then my ability to find English-language content depends on my ability to speak French, which just doesn't make sense. Putting the foreign language term in brackets wouldn't help much, since they would presumably be sorted alphabetically according to the French term (so English would be under "A" rather than "E"). Hut 8.5 16:01, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Actually, as an English-speaker, I sometimes find myself wanting to look something up in the Misplaced Pages version of an article in another language, and I then have to go and look up what that language is called in that language before I can click on the right inter-wiki link... Can you instantly identify all the languages down the side of an article, or do you have to go and look up which one is the Russian one and which one is the Bulgarian one (not everyone knows the two-letter codes off by heart, and certainly not random readers)? If I look down the list of interwiki links on most pages, I can only usually identify about half of them. There should be at least a helpful link to the list of all languages in both their own languages and in English (I think this list lives on meta). For example, is Eesti Estonian? It might be, but I'm only really guessing. And I have no clue what Galego is. The list on meta is at meta:List of Wikipedias - that would be a very useful addition to what-ever generates the inter-wiki links. I know this link is already at the bottom of the Main Page in the 'Misplaced Pages languages' section, but where it is really needed is in the inter-wiki links bit that appears on every page, along the lines of "For an English-language key explaining which languages are which in the list below, see...". Though ideally that would link to an alphabetical list so people can easily see what the languages are. Alternatively, set things up so if you hover your cursor over the interwiki link, a mouse-up will tell you what language it is (e.g. Estonian for Eesti; Galician for Galego, and so on). Carcharoth (talk) 16:22, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Why would you be looking something up in a language you don't understand? And why is this being discussed on the Main Page talk page? --Yair rand (talk) 16:34, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

This is probably the wrong location, but I'm only joining a conversation that has already started... And to answer your first question, I sometimes find that the information I'm looking for (e.g. on an obscure historical French person) is only a stub in the English Misplaced Pages, but the French Misplaced Pages article is a lot longer, so I stick that into Google Translate, and that gets me closer to what I want to find out. I sometimes do that for obscure Russian historical people as well, and sometimes other languages. Does that answer your question? (Me, I would never question someone trying to research in another language, I would welcome it and try and help them!). Carcharoth (talk) 16:47, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

I can answer your second question (obviously... as the starter of the discussion and all... :D). TBH, I put the discussion here for 2 reaosns. Firstly, I genuinely thoguht the discussion was only relevant to the main page, and then halfway through my post, I was like "hey, wait a minute", but I just thought "screw it" and finished it off here anyways. Secondly, I know this is a bit of a cheat, but since this page has received a lot of attention due to the 4 million articles thingy, and my post on Jimbo's talk page about Misplaced Pages's ugliness which has sparked a whole reform on this page, I figured that any query I would post here would get replies and intelligent discussion rather quickly. Of course, we can always notify the correct forum for this discussion with a simple link back to here. Does that answer the question sufficiently for you? :)--Coin945 (talk) 17:13, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Plus, for the record, I think that Carcharoth's "mouse-up" idea is inspired and rather a brilliant solution. I say we go with that.--Coin945 (talk) 17:15, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

It is not that inspired. If you look at the 'Misplaced Pages languages' section, the languages mentioned there already have mouse-ups. And on the side-bar, most of the options have mouse-ups. I just got to wondering why the interwiki links on the sidebar don't have mouse-ups. The real prize should go to whoever can find where the changes need to be made (presumably somewhere in the MediaWiki namespace) and how to do this in the most efficient way. I found MediaWiki:Interwiki config-sorting order, but that doesn't look like the right page... Maybe ask at the technical village pump? Carcharoth (talk) 17:25, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

My feeling on this matter is that the pages on the bottom should be in English, and the ones on the side should be in their native language. Ryan Vesey Review me! 16:39, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

What nonsense. If the Ivory Coast incident has taught us anything, a clique of young Americans are trying to force their ignorance across the project for kicks. The whole point of inter-language links is to assist non-English language speakers to a corresponding page in their language. How arrogant of you to assume they're in native languages for some kind of frivolous joke. doktorb _words 17:26, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Okay first of all, granted, that Ivory Coast was a bit of a silly and misguided analysis of that discussion, that I just shoved in my post at the last minute. Point taken. Secondly, I am in no way trying to insinuate in any way that English is more important that any other language. My point is simply that in an Enlgish Misplaced Pages, it would be nice to be able to immediately see what languages a page has been translated into. Btw it's not in a response to your post specifically, but I might as well respond in one hit: on having a 'reason' to see an article in a language that I don't even speak, as well as Carcaroth's translating reason, I simply have a fascination with checking our the "other languages" section of articles, and seeing what languages other languages the article is in. Sometimes its very interesting, and can take one on all kinds of socio-eco-geo-political-historic journeys. Just a little bit of academia I like to indulge myself in. One of many many reasons why such a thing might be desired on an English Misplaced Pages. MOst of the time it's not even about "doing" anything at all, but just to see what langauges it's in in one hit. In response to saying Carcaroth's idea was "inspired", sorry for giving you such a huge compliment (:D). I was reading this off my phone, and didn't have a chance to investigate further, and by the sound of it, it sounded quite a creative solution. Little did I know it was already half done. Upon further pondering, I have come to the conclusion that the languages in english would still be a heck-of-a-lot easier.--Coin945 (talk) 18:02, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

I fully understand your point - I like to see how specific languages have dealt with phrases or idioms in English (or, indeed, television episode titles). But I can't understand the substantive complaint. An inter-wink like says "Cymraeg" because the destination is Welsh-language text. Why would it - or do you want it - to say "Welsh"? doktorb _words 18:26, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Turn the question around. Is there any reason not to have a mouseup that says "Welsh" when a reader hovers over it? That way, you've educated the reader who didn't know what Cymraeg meant! Win-win situation, surely? Carcharoth (talk) 18:30, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

That would be as far a compromise I'd be willing to go. doktorb _words 19:43, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

If you're unable to find the language's name for itself in its native tongue, then I can't imagine you having any use for the articles contained on that Misplaced Pages. If you're willing to use a translator for the article...then do the obvious thing and look up the name for that language? This is quite possibly one of the most absurd complaints I've ever seen on the main page. Yes, let's defeat the purpose of the alternate language column to save you 10 seconds of looking up the language's proper name. -OldManNeptune ⚓ 17:29, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

In order to know which language to translate from, you need to know what the language is (isn't that obvious?). And not everyone knows where to go and look up the name of the languages. The person who set up the mouse-ups in {{Sec link auto}} didn't think that was a waste of time. Can we please not be confrontational over this. Carcharoth (talk) 17:36, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Surely it occurred to you to just look up the language's article on this very wiki? I just ran a quick test looking up a dozen languages from around the world, and sure enough every single one of them contained a notation at the very top of the article with that language's name in its own language and writing system. Doing this took me less than a minute. Assuming you're willing to run the whole article through an e-translator and struggle through that imperfect translation, how is it even possible that you could be unwilling to put in another 10 seconds to open a new tab, type in that language's name in English, and find its name in its own language? Even if you want to do the process in total reverse and click a random language without knowing what it actually is, as it turns out that copy/pasting the language's name in its own writing to the search box redirects to its English page, even for languages with non-latin writing. -OldManNeptune ⚓ 17:53, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Sure, you can do it that way, but not everyone will think of or be willing to do that. Go to the main page, scroll down to the 'Misplaced Pages languages' section, and then hover over the various language names there. It is much more convenient to do this and go "hey, that's Ukrainian, that's Vietnamese, that's Malay", rather than look them all up laboriously. The same applies when you are at an article and for whatever reason you want to know which other languages have articles on this topic (and please don't question people wanting to look up articles in a non-native language, that sort of thing needs to be encouraged not discouraged, otherwise you are just encouraging parochialism). If you accept that both non-native speakers and native speakers will be interested in knowing what the language behind that link is, then it is much easier to hover the mouse over the links and you find out what you want to know (e.g. this article on an obscure 18th-century French general has articles on the Malay, French, Japanese, German and Dutch Wikipedias, but not any others). Now do you understand where I'm coming from in this discussion? I can accept that you might not understand why people might want to know that, but please accept that some people do want these links in other languages to be more accessible so they can get a feel for how widespread the topic currently is across different languages, and maybe even compare articles between different languages, but to be able to do so easily (by browsing) rather than laboriously by this individual look-up method you propose, which discourages browsing. I can bet, if these mouse-ups were implemented, the interwiki traffic would increase as some people who previously ignored the links started following them. Most wouldn't go very far, but some might get a better feel for what these links mean, and that ultimately would be a good thing. Carcharoth (talk) 18:15, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

• Rather than argue over this, can anyone help with a question? I looked into where the mouse-ups were coming from for {{Misplaced Pages languages}}, and I looked in {{Misplaced Pages languages/core}} and found the mouse-up coding in {{Sec link auto}}. Is there anyway to use that so that whenever someone hovers over the interwiki link on the sidebar for an article, you get a mouse-up in English? That would help English readers know what that link was for, while presumably native language speakers wouldn't need the mouse-up (though it might confuse them, but if you have two people trying to work out what a link means, one knowing the language, the other not, you will always confuse one of them). Carcharoth (talk) 17:44, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

A bit more, from Template:Misplaced Pages languages/core/doc:

The interwiki links of this template are within the emplate {{Sec link auto}}, which will make the link go to the secure server if the user is there and otherwise returns a usual interwiki link. The third text parameter of this template shows a mouseover, which is the English language name of the language and its IS0 639 code within brackets. To determine the English name, it calls {{Language}}. Furthermore, there are "lang" and "xml:lang" within the text so that browsers recognize it's a non-English text and treat it properly. The text of the link then uses the parser function {{#language:}}, which displays the language's native name as it's used by MediaWiki, e.g. within the interwiki links. This is done to ensure consistency with the interwiki links in the sidebar.

Is there a way to get that kind of mouse-up functionality enabled on the sidebar interwikilinks for all articles? Carcharoth (talk) 17:44, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Can we perhaps have something like "Français (French)" and possibly sortable by either the native or the English name? That would seem to answer all the points raised here.--Khajidha (talk) 17:53, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

• Relevant: mw:Universal Language Selector. --Yair rand (talk) 21:17, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

  Thank-you for that link. It is an interesting project. On the subject of interwiki links and their relative inaccessibility to English-language speakers (I know they are not primarily intended for English-language speakers, but it would still be nice not to exclude English-language readers from understanding that part of a page that we provide them with), I've just found out that the mouseup/tool tip bit is only broken on the Main Page interwiki links. They actually work fine on other pages, though they show the title as written within the interwiki link (i.e. the title on the[REDACTED] being linked to). What I think I'm looking for is a way for logged-in users to be able to set a preference so that the interwiki links display the language name in English. That way English-language users can understand what the links are for, without having to go and look up the language code or name (there are too many for anyone to be reasonably expected to remember them). That way I can read an article and understand everything on the page, rather than glancing at the list of interwiki links, recognising a few, failing to recognise the others, and then giving up on it. It would actually be far more educational to our readers if we left the original language in place and told them in the language of the wiki they were reading what this language was. That way they would have learnt something, such as learning that Galego is Galician for Galician, or that Cymraeg is Welsh for Welsh. What I would propose for article interwiki links is that the mouseup for (say) the interwiki links on the human page would say things like: "German: Mensch" or "Mensch (German)" when you hover over "Deutsch". The point I'm trying to make is that it is possible to make the non-English language bits accessible to those who only read English (ie. make the interwiki links bilingual). It is the only bit on a Misplaced Pages page that a native English reader will struggle to understand. So if it can be made a bit more readable, and less like a black box that should be avoided (the slightly patronising implication being: 'don't bother trying to understand this interwiki list, go back to reading the bit in English that you will understand'), that should be a good thing. Carcharoth (talk) 22:04, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Alternatively - 'Click here (link) for parallel lists of language names in given language/your language' - using the second, third and fourth columns of - a full table would be too large. 93.97.45.17 (talk) 12:18, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

The more sophisticated version would be the analogue of Napier's Bones - 1st column 'the language in that language' and 2nd headed by 'two letter language code' (so one can, for example see what 'Norwegian' looks like in 'Welsh' and vice versa (and even forgotten languages such as Hurrian and Sogdian if someone is bored enough to set the conversions up). 93.97.45.17 (talk) 14:58, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Gadgets and scripts

Over at ptwiki we have a gadget that translates interwikis to Portuguese. If there is interest I could translate it to English. Chico Venancio (talk) 22:54, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

• I don't know if this is still relevant, but technically JavaScript is required to change the interwiki language text. To me, it sounds like a doable thing, though this script here (haven't looked at it) might do the trick. --The Evil IP address (talk) 17:26, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Thanks for pointing out that script, I hadn't seen that before! I will point Equazcion and Chicocvenancio here and ask them to comment (I've split this off into a subsection). Are either of the gadget and script approaches documented anywhere where people can be aware of them and use them, and where would be the best place to continue this discussion? Where is the 'talk page' for the sidebar? Is it some mediawiki namespace talk page? Carcharoth (talk) 07:29, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
    • Yes, indeed, it's MediaWiki:Sidebar. --The Evil IP address (talk) 20:43, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Good articles

I feel like the Main Page should make a greater reference to GA's. Something along the line of Misplaced Pages has 41,012 Good articles. You can view them all here. Any thoughts on this or something similar? Even if we didn't do something like this, I feel that the main page should link to our good article somewhere. Maybe we can put a link in the side bar under featured content. Ryan Vesey Review me! 14:11, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I like this idea. Casliber (talk · contribs) 15:00, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

That would be a move in the right direction. And we could concomitantly get rid of some of the duplicate links such as: Community portal, List of Wikipedias, Statistics... --ELEKHH 15:22, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I actually proposed this about 9 months ago I think formally and to rotate GAs with DYKs or add a GA section and there was a "no consensus" I think.♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:17, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I'd really like to feature some good articles on the main page but decided not to propose that for the time being because I've seen concerns that the process wasn't stringent enough. I'd hope that putting that notice up would be a good first step. Our good articles are good reads, and it's a shame that there isn't a more prominent way for readers to see them. Ryan Vesey Review me! 15:35, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Here's another thought of something we could use. We could use {{Random page in category}} to create something like Read a random Good article Ryan Vesey Review me! 15:35, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Oohh, yes please! Personally, I'd like to see that 'random article' link on the sidebar - which links to some of the most embarrassing dross on[REDACTED] - replaced with a 'random good article' link. Richerman (talk) 16:19, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

What a great idea! Why on earth would anyone want to link to Mladje when they could link to The Stakeout (Parks and Recreation)? The only thing the random article button is good for is playing Wiki ladders. Even if we didn't get rid of the old random article link, I think the new one should be added. Ryan Vesey Review me! 16:28, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Most readers, unfamiliar with the "good article" designation, would interpret this to mean that the rest of Misplaced Pages's articles are bad. Obviously, we'd link to Misplaced Pages:Good articles, but many people would simply take the statement at face value.

We should consider renaming the process. —David Levy 17:37, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

"Great articles"? -- tariqabjotu 19:57, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I considered that; however, it would go against this. Ryan Vesey Review me! 20:06, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

OK, "Satisfactory articles" it is. -- tariqabjotu 20:13, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

...except, of course, the same objection exists with regard to "Satisfactory articles" as to "Good articles" – are all the rest of Misplaced Pages's articles "unsatisfactory"? If you seriously think that the "Good" label should be changed, you need to suggest a non-judgemental alternative, such as "Accredited articles". I doubt you'll find a consensus, though. Brianboulton (talk) 20:40, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I was thinking more along the lines of an arbitrary designation — something with an obvious Misplaced Pages-specific connotation (so it wouldn't be interpreted as its dictionary meaning and nothing more).

"Gold articles" would change only one letter (and retain the "GA" abbreviation), but it doesn't jibe with the bronze star used to denote featured articles. —David Levy 20:49, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm afraid this discussion about renaming the whole GA process risks to derail the very good proposal above (as far I can see GA's have been called as such since 2005, unlikely to be changed now quickly). Why cannot simply stay "Good article", and if we ever get any feedback that misinterpretation along the lines you suggest happens at all, than we can talk about changing the name. A simple wikilink to WP:GA should actually avoid any such misunderstanding, but alternatively, as a pre-emptive measure one could be more explicit and say something like "promoted good article" or "distinguished good article" or "accredited good article", or "marked" or maybe something else. There should be an easier way to avoid misunderstandings other than renaming something in place since seven years. --ELEKHH 00:07, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm afraid this discussion about renaming the whole GA process risks to derail the very good proposal above

I seek to prevent the proposal's derailment (again).

(as far I can see GA's have been called as such since 2005, unlikely to be changed now quickly).

And ideas like Ryan's have arisen multiple times, with this issue cited by others as an argument against them. I don't know whether a name change is likely, but overcoming the objection seems less likely.

Why cannot simply stay "Good article", and if we ever get any feedback that misinterpretation along the lines you suggest happens at all, than we can talk about changing the name.

Why would you expect readers misinterpreting the terminology to inform us of this? They won't realize that it's occurring.

We're very careful about introducing new main page content, which is extremely difficult to remove. So we're not going to add something that seems likely to be problematic on the basis that "we can talk about" resolving the issue (and possibly accomplish nothing) afterward.

Announcing to the public that we have "41,012 good articles" is undesirable. I'm trying to pursue a viable alternative.

A simple wikilink to WP:GA should actually avoid any such misunderstanding,

Because everyone would follow the link and read the documentation?

We link to Misplaced Pages:Featured articles, but that doesn't prevent the common misunderstanding that "today's featured article" is simply an article that we've decided to feature today (leading to "Why isn't today's featured article?!" questions/complaints).

but alternatively, as a pre-emptive measure one could be more explicit and say something like "promoted good article" or "distinguished good article" or "accredited good article", or "marked" or maybe something else.

Such wording is cumbersome and wouldn't even make sense to most readers. —David Levy 02:05, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I am not convinced by the above. What I see is the mummification of the main page, justified with fear from the risks of an change. --ELEKHH 23:57, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

I support the good article count's addition to the main page, for which I even created a mock-up when advocating it in the past. You're the one resisting a suggested change (renaming the GA process) on the basis that things have been a certain way for a long time. —David Levy 00:38, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Oh sorry must have been unclear, that was my assessment of the situation, I don't care much what is it called, neither do I have any issue with the current name. I also support the addition of a link to what is presently called GA. --ELEKHH 01:01, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

I understand that. And I seek to address an issue that's interfered with past attempts to make such an addition. You don't see a problem with the current name, but others do. —David Levy 01:30, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

So, it seems like there's a decent number of people who are supportive of the proposal. Maybe we should go into more specifics. First, should we focus on making a change to get good articles onto the main page or onto the sidebar? I feel it would be better to focus on one change at a time. In either case, should we link to a random GA or to Misplaced Pages:Good articles? If we put it on the main page, where would people put them? Near the top, or under the featured picture, or somewhere else? Ryan Vesey Review me! 01:51, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

When this was discussed in the past, the format that seemed the most viable was one in which the featured article count and good article count appeared alongside the total article count at the top of the page.

I strongly supported the idea (which would promote featured/good articles and eliminate the implication that we value quantity over quality), but as I recall, we never made it past the naming issue discussed above. —David Levy 02:05, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

That particular discussion (there have been others) is archived here. A mock-up of the suggested layout can be found here. —David Levy 02:29, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

It is remarkable how impossible it seems to be to achieve even minor improvements of the most banal and obvious kind. Somehow other Misplaced Pages's don't have this problem. The German Wiki and French Wiki display a link to their equivalent of GAs just below the FA section, "lesenswerte Artikel" (in English: articles worthwhile reading - and what a WikiJargon and massive understatement that term is!!!), respectively ."Bons contenus" (good content). The Italian, Spanish and Polish Wikis have a whole section for "Voci di qualità" (Quality articles), "Artículo bueno" (Good article), "Dobre Artykuły" (Good articles). Meanwhile we are in deadlock because presumably the word "good" can be misunderstood. --ELEKHH 00:14, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

@ Ryan Vesey, I would not support. I've seen too many problems with GAs passing that shouldn't be passed and a lot of GAs get passed with out much oversight. DYKs, while at times problematic, still have multiple eyes on them and a process that encourages multiple eyes on them. GA, not so much. Beyond that, it would require an extensive overhaul to the GA process to get them there. DYK that GAs allow raw URLs in the articles? DYK that DYKs did not? Some of the DYK criteria are actual more strict than GA. I'd also hazard a guess GA is more ripe for potential copyvio abuse than DYK, because I almost NEVER see a single person really indicate they've looked at a GA for that. --LauraHale (talk) 12:36, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

As somebody who has been involved in both processes, I find it very hard to believe the presumptions and guesses that DYKs are generally better than GAs. I think you would need some real proof to convince anyone. What you say about URLs cannot be true, unless I misunderstand something. The MOS, including external link guidelines, applies to GAs, indeed very much so. Lastly, scrutiny is obviously linked to material being on the main page. If GAs are placed on the main page, than will receive more attention, more scrutiny, and thus will become better, a process now reserved to new articles about ever more minor subjects. --ELEKHH 23:57, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

• Algo Centre Mall: passed GA, failed DYK. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:48, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

• Thanks for the link, nice pick. But that does not validate the presumption that DYKs are generally better than GAs. One could easily link to hundreds of DYKs which would not pass GA criteria. --ELEKHH 01:14, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

• GA criteria says "(b) it provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines;" DYK basically requires EVERYTHING to be cited. Beyond that, when was the last time you saw a copyright check done on a GAN? How many times have you seen GAs failed for copyvio problems? I've had some of my GAs pass with less work than my DYKs took. If some one seriously wants to get GAs to the main page, they need to start developing a system to improve it now. DYK has become at times HARDER than GAN because the front page has required it become that. Beyond that, GAN is largely inaccessible to new contributors, which is a good thing for encouraging new contributors. --LauraHale (talk) 01:08, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

To answer the above question, GA only requires ccomplaince with 5 (of ~50) MOS pages. Reference formatting is not one of them, so yes bare URLs are technically allowed in GAs. --ThaddeusB (talk) 01:24, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

May I suggest that this discussion is summarised and continued at Misplaced Pages talk:2012 main page redesign proposal? Those (like David) who can remember or are willing to search out previous discussion might also want to add them to that talk page as well, to help shape discussion there as things move forward. Carcharoth (talk) 07:19, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Current events, shootings and the picture

It is kind of weird but because of the shootings are in the current events section, the photo is of the filmmaker, well i just glanced and thought it was a photo of the shootings event and, this is the fact that his identity could be besmirched and people who do not want to look at a face of a largely unknown person might make some ridiculous assumption especially if they glance real fast without reading the rest of the current events.--99.55.104.165 (talk) 05:46, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree. This discussion about placement of the 'pictured' blurb and the picture comes up periodically. It is particularly unfortunate when we have pictures of people up there. Hopefully the picture will get rotated off soon for some other picture related to one of the other hooks, or another item goes up on ITN to avoid the misleading conjunction. Carcharoth (talk) 07:13, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

If the pictured item was always at the top it wouldn't be a problem. Richerman (talk) 09:13, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

We've been down that road many times, and consensus has always been for the status quo. Now, it's best we not detract from the very important BLP point of the OP here by arguing about picture placement. —Strange Passerby (t × c) 09:25, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

I'd hardly call this a BLP point. The effort required to figure out which item that's related to is not significant. It's not as if that's illustrating a blurb at the bottom of ITN. It's the second blurb, which is probably still next to the picture for most people. While it'd be better to have a picture related to the top item, I really don't understand the problem. -- tariqabjotu 16:44, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

• Can someone from Colorado quickly get to the site of this shooting and take a photo of the movie theatre, please? We can use such a photo in ITN now. --69.158.118.187 (talk) 10:25, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm sure the image of Aurora town centre, currently included in the article, would be an improvement on this Main Page. Even the one of Obama. Really not sure why it should take ten fourteen hours to swap one image. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:47, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

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