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Manual of Style

This page falls within the scope of the Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style, a collaborative effort focused on enhancing clarity, consistency, and cohesiveness across the Manual of Style (MoS) guidelines by addressing inconsistencies, refining language, and integrating guidance effectively.Manual of StyleWikipedia:WikiProject Manual of StyleTemplate:WikiProject Manual of StyleManual of Style This page falls under the contentious topics procedure and is given additional attention, as it closely associated to the English Misplaced Pages Manual of Style, and the article titles policy. Both areas are subjects of debate. Contributors are urged to review the awareness criteria carefully and exercise caution when editing. For information on Misplaced Pages's approach to the establishment of new policies and guidelines, refer to WP:PROPOSAL. Additionally, guidance on how to contribute to the development and revision of Misplaced Pages policies of Misplaced Pages's policy and guideline documents is available, offering valuable insights and recommendations.

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Common name, birth name and post-nominal initials

I noticed an editor making a excellent job of cleaning up bios to conform with the MOS. In one case Mark Evaloarjuk, I notice that the style guide does not give any information as to the correct format. Is the current oepning correct, with the exception that "nee" should be "ne", or should it be '''Mark Evaloarjuk''' (né '''Evaluarjuk'''), ] (died ], ] By the way would it be possible to rewrite Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (biographies)#Maiden names so that it applied to both women and men?

Foreign names and their English spelling

I came across Jóhanna Sigurðardóttir and Eiður Guðjohnsen, names which are hard to read for me. Why don't we put the common English spelling of the name in the beginning of the lede, in parentheses as a significant alternative name? If I want to find out how their name is commonly spelled in English I have to go all the way down to the references section. That makes no sense. MakeSense64 (talk) 06:48, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't understand it either, it is flat out against Misplaced Pages guidlines. The most common guidlines like WP:TITLE, WP:OFFICIALNAMES, but also many other, states: "It is generally advisable to use the most common form of the name used in reliable sources in English". This makes sense because this is the English language Misplaced Pages, not some Icelandic one. Internationally, not many people can read Icelandic either. I will change the titles of the pages. Dr. D.E. Mophon (talk) 11:00, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Firstly it isn't against WP guidelines see WP:MOSPN#diacritics. As for "internationally" educated Europeans evidently can read ð as the interwikis show. We'd need to start a new[REDACTED] us. uk. or au. if we are are going to go by "native English speakers" rather than "all English speakers"; see James Stanlaw -Japanese English: Language and Culture Contact 2004 Page 280 "The British Council as early as 1986 recognized that the majority of English speakers were not 'native'." In ictu oculi (talk) 23:49, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Belatedly agree with In ictu oculi. As written unless someone is so well known by an English common name (similar to place names) that there is a solid case for that usage. (And I would probably add that there is also sufficient difference, not just diacritics applied to otherwise the same letters.)

How Eastern European hockey players' names appear on their uniforms in the U.S. NHL is a typical nexus of a great wailing and gnashing of teeth which typically degenerates into the non-diacritics camp being denounced for being anti-name-your-nationality and of being nationality/ethnicity denialists and the diacritics camp being labeled as POV-pushing article-owning nationalists. Redirects exist to address this sort of stuff. VєсrumЬа ►TALK 16:16, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately, this matter is, as you say, one of "great wailing and gnashing of teeth", ANI, DR, and other noticeboard issues, and the behavioral issues are not, I fear, going to resolve until there is better policy guidance. I would have hoped that common sense and civility would reign, but that's not the case. As such, I'm going to make an RfC below, and I'll try and write a more general question than one specific to Icelandic, as lovely as that language is. --j⚛e decker 19:10, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Exceptions to honorific titles - when to include "Sir"?

There is a discussion underway at Talk:Donald Tsang on whether to include the prenominal title "Sir" in the bolded text in the leading sentence of the article. The current MoS guideline does not envision any exceptions - that is, anyone entitled to "Sir" or "Dame" will have the title bolded in the leading sentence. Donald Tsang is entitled to the use of "Sir," had not renounced or repudiated his knighthood, but (due in part to change in nationality) does not use the title on a regular basis. The media seems to have used the title for the first couple years he was knighted (1997-2000), but has ceased doing so, consistently calling him "Mr Tsang".

My view on this is to not include Sir for living recipients of knighthoods who have repudiated their knighthoods, but to include them for those who are deceased or who have not repudiated their knighthoods. Tsang falls under the latter. I think the bolded text, which includes the full name along with any pre-nominals, is not meant to mirror common usage.

Comments, and whether the current wording needs to be fixed to reflect cases such as these?--Jiang (talk) 01:46, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Relevant discussions : Misplaced Pages:BLPN#Donald Tsang (permalink), Talk:Donald Tsang#New discussion: "Sir". — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 11:25, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

As I understand it, only citizens of countries that have the Queen as head of state (with possible exceptions like Ireland) are entitled to use "Sir" when awarded a KBE; so it "Bill Gates, KBE" but not "Sir Bill Gates", for example. People who later become British citizens may acquire the right to the title "Sir" (and, no doubt, Bill Gates would be very welcome), but do we know the official rule or unofficial convention for those who later lose British citizenship? --Boson (talk) 13:14, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Take a look at the first footnote of the article. Citizens of countries that have the Queen as head of state at the time the knighthood was conferred are entitled to use "Sir" when awarded a KBE, regardless of whether Commonwealth citizenship was lost at a later date. The title "Sir" is held forever (or until forfeiture). We have parallel cases involving Indian nationals who were knighted before 1947. We have cases where the knight continued to use the title, cases where the knight stopped using the title, and cases where the knight repudiated the title and returned the insignia. Where do we draw the line on when to use "Sir" and when not to?--Jiang (talk) 17:09, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Talking general principles (which I think is appropriate on this page), I would say:

• As a general rule, we want to follow conventions.
• We want a very reliable source for what the conventions are. If none is available, we can decide on the normal criteria for deciding MOS rules.
• We want uniform rules (even if they are complicated and take account of personal preference).
• Because the rules are complicated, there is a danger that normally reliable sources will get it wrong, which is one reason why we should not necessarily follow sources that are reliable in other respects.
• For persons whose notability (since being awarded their KBE) are mainly notable in a non-Commonwealth jurisdiction/culture, we should follow the conventions of the appropriate location, with the conventions of England taking second place.
• We should take the preference of the person concerned into account.
• We should take into account that acceptance of awards or use of titles might be illegal or otherwise frowned upon in certain places and that our use of such honorifics might imply such use.
• If we know what the rules are (and can source them reliably), we should state them (probably in a footnote), whatever choice is made in the body text. If possible, we should link to an article where the details are explained (what about an Englishman with a knighthood who later acquires American citizenship?).

So, if the facts are as I understand them, in the case of (Sir) Donald Tsang I would say one should omit the "Sir" throughout the article but indicate that he was awarded a KBE and (in a footnote) that he is (or may be) entitled to use the "Sir" (with appropriate sources). I think the Economist's solution is elegant ("Sir Donald, as he prefers not to be known"), but not quite encyclopedic in style.

--Boson (talk) 20:01, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

The question is not whether "Sir" should be used throughout the article but whether it belongs in the bolded text in the lead section, which takes exception to common usage by displaying the full and complete name of the person. On the one hand, a title is not the same as a name; on the other hand, the bolded text was never designed to reflect "personal preference" or "common usage". see also List of honorary British knights and dames on what we have to say on loss of citizenship.--Jiang (talk) 21:46, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

A problem here is that if Tsang had registered himself as a British national (overseas), he is still a Commonwealth citizen, since British nationals (overseas) are Commonwealth citizens by definition. Jeffrey (talk) 18:05, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Tsang did not register himself as a British National (Overseas), as did not Anson Chan and other officers of the new SAR government, and that is why her damehood awarded in 2002 is honorary. If she had been given a damehood in 1997 like Tsang, she would similarly be entitled to be styled "Dame".--Jiang (talk) 18:56, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

A request for comment has been filed regarding the use of "Sir" in Donald Tsang's biography. Please join the discussion here. --Jiang (talk) 13:07, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Names in other scripts

A Serb editor is adding in a name in Serbian Cyrillic to the lead of an Australian actress whose father was Serbian. I am assuming that the convention is to use script translations only when the subject is from that country. I can't find a specific guideline for this. Your views are appreciated. Thanks Span (talk) 16:43, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Is there even a reliable source attesting to the Serbian Cyrillic name? If not, it's OR and goes straightaway. Jclemens (talk) 00:59, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Thumbnail descriptions.

There is an issue being hotly debated over on Talk:Homeopathy about what (if anything) to say when we mention someone's name and link to them. (For example "German physicistphysician Samuel Hahnemann said XYZ"). This is a kind of mini-biography - so I'm asking about it here.

The question is whether there is any kind of guideline about how to (or, indeed whether to) provide such attribution.

The specific case in point is James Randi - who is both a stage magician and a notable skeptic. In the context of his criticism of homeopathy, it's perhaps relevant that he's a noted skeptic - but it is also notable that as a stage magician because he exhibits showmanship in his anti-Homeopathy presentations. So should we say:

• "James Randi said XYZ"
• "Noted skeptic, James Randi said XYZ"
• "Stage magician, James Randi said XYZ"
• "Noted skeptic and stage magician, James Randi said XYZ"?

Where do we stop? We could end up with half a paragraph of biography leading up to a link to a person who merely mentioned something about the subject of the actual article we're writing!

Looking through a range of articles at random, it seems that we're highly inconsistent about this kind of thing. Just how much mini-biography of this person should we attempt to include when quoting them?

• None (on the grounds that we're linking to them - so a full bio is just a click away).
• Only what seems relevant to the article (so Samuel Hahnemann is a "physicistphysician" because this is the Homeopathy article - and not "linguist", for which he is also known).
• Everything.

Does it make a difference if there is an article about the person or not? If there is a linked article, then the information could be omitted because the link can easily be clicked upon by the curious reader. But if there is no article, then perhaps a few words of context about this person is important.

Are there any existing guidelines about this at all?

SteveBaker (talk) 15:44, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

I think Steve intended "physician", not "physicist" :-) Some other possible criteria to consider are

• Best known as X (by analogy to wp:COMMONNAME)
• Most published on X (by virtue of wp:V)
• Most cited on X (by extension to wp:N)

Many people have had things to say about (in this case) homeopathy. The blurb should make it clear to the reader why this particular person's quote is worthy of mention in the article. Otherwise the inclusion could appear to be an arbitrary choice. LeadSongDog come howl! 16:09, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

When you stop and think about it though, why is Samual Hahnemann a "German physician" and not just a "Physician"? Nobody is suggesting that we say "American skeptic James Randi" - this is a clear WP:WORLDVIEW issue. Hmmmm...we really need a guideline! SteveBaker (talk) 16:30, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

RFC: Names with diacritics and other non-ASCII letters: Should we permit, require, or prohibit ASCIIfied versions?

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When article titles include characters with diacritics, non-ASCII letters (such as the Icelandic thorn), and so forth, what should the article do about the fact that often, in English writing, these terms will be written in a more or less ASCII-fied (A-Z, a-z only) manner? In particular, should the lead sentence include simplified versions as "significant alternate forms?"

There has been, as has been pointed out in a thread above, much "wailing and gnashing of teeth" with respect to the correct orthography of individuals whose names are include characters beyond A-Z, a-z. In my view, this wailing and gnashing of teeth has risen to the level where it's overall effect on the encyclopedia is problematic. I request better policy guidance.

The question: When article titles include characters with diacritics, non-ASCII letters (such as the Icelandic thorn), and so forth, what should the article do about the fact that often, in English writing, these terms will be written in a more or less ASCII-fied (A-Z, a-z only) manner? Are these "significant alternate names" as the phrase is use in our policy on article titles?

(Added clarification: The policy I named specifies that "signficant alternative names" should appear in the lead. The question is around the lead wording, not the title itself, nor redirects. My apologies for the any resulting confusion. --j⚛e decker 22:57, 23 July 2012 (UTC))

I would ask that participants consider at least the following specific distinctions, in case they turn out to be relevant:

1. Characters with accents. e.g. Jelena Janković. Do we need to note that Jelena Jankovic is an alternate name? If we don't need to, is it redundant to, and is that encyclopedic?
2. Does the answer to the previous question change if the language the name is from treats what I might think of as an "accented letter" as a entirely different letter of the alphabet, much as is the case with the Spanish Ñ?
3. What to do about singular characters outside of accents, most notably the Icelandic eth and thorn?
4. What do do about ligatures, e.g., Æ.

Arguments I've seen made in favor of including such alternative forms where sourced include portions of WP:AT's requirement of including "significant alternate names" and WP:BIRTHNAME.

Arguments I've seen made in favor of prohibiting such language include the argument that the ASCIIfied versions are obvious and therefore redundant and unencyclopedic. Also, there are several examples in policy pages of non-ASCII biographic names, and none provide said "dediacriticed" versions. See examples at WP:OPENPARA, for example.

There are no doubt many arguments I've missed, and I'm sure I've done neither side justice, but I wanted to hit the most common themes I've seen so far in the dispute.

I'm neutral save that I would ask editors attempt to form a consensus of some sort, be it prohibit, permit, or insist, and if "permit", then in what cases? Thanks, --j⚛e decker 19:47, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

• Comment There is really nothing we can "do about the fact that often, in English writing, these terms will be written in a more or less ASCII-fied (A-Z, a-z only) manner". And it would be a major break to either require or prohibit. The actual issue is more subtle than this question suggests. Dicklyon (talk) 20:33, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
• Comment Hi Joe, thanks for notification. If I understand your specific question related to Jelena Janković then my answer would be that if title has a diacritic, then lede does not need to represent typographic limits present in some sources, even the majority of otherwise reliable but not "reliable for the statement being made":

Charlotte Brontë (21 April 1816 – 31 March 1855) was an English novelist and poet,...

Zoë Eliot Baird (born June 20, 1952) is an American lawyer...

François Maurice Adrien Marie Mitterrand (...) was the 21st President of the French Republic...

Lech Wałęsa (born 29 September 1943) is a Polish politician, ...

Tomás Séamus Ó Fiaich (3 November 1923 – 8 May 1990) was an Irish prelate...

Björn Rune Borg (6 June 1956) is a Swedish tennis player...

The BBC website does not here typographically represent Brontë, NY Times does not represent non-Spanish/French/German names such as Wałęsa per User:Prolog/Diacritical marks, but this does not make these typographically limited sources an alternative name. i.e. There is no "Charlotte Bronte." I would propose that a Slavic or Scandinavian example be added to Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Biographies next to Mitterand to make it clear that if en.wp has a Polish etc name in title, then we do not have ledes such as:

Charlotte Brontë (BBC website "Charlotte Bronte") was an English novelist and poet,...

François Mitterrand (Daily Express "Francois Mitterand") was the 21st President of the French Republic...

Lech Wałęsa (NY Times "Lech Walesa") is a Polish politician, ...

And perhaps add e.g. quote "Typographical limitations in some sources, such as Francois without the ç, are not to be considered alternative names or established English exonyms such as Zurich or Montreal." unquote.

In ictu oculi (talk) 20:36, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Follow-up comment. I think the above covers 99% of European bios and toponyms. But there are going to be a 1% of exceptions, as Joe specifically tees-up the question referring to Icelandic thorn Þ, þ, a difficult letter for English speakers. What makes this difficult more than the Polish ł of Wałęsa? Visual recognition. Any English speaker can read Wałęsa, they will probably just read it as "Wallessa" rather than "Va-wen-sa", the name is still recognisable. But when faced with "Þ" that is not a lightly modified character but an extra letter of the alphabet. The same is true with the small case eth ð, though it is evidently easier than thorn. Another one is German ß, hence Franz Josef Strauss (but in this case the article title already has changed -ß to -ss, so the lede starts

Franz Josef Strauss (German: Franz Josef Strauß) ...

Debatably it could/should perhaps be the other way round, but in either case the non 26-letter consonant is given as a separate variant. Æ I am less convinced is not English, Ælfric of Eynsham for example. So this leaves Icelandic Þ/þ,Ð/ð, and German ß as the three letters beyond the A-Z 26 letter alphabet. After these 3 letters other exceptions get thin and few. The Maltese alphabet doesn't go beyond the 26 letter alphabet, no matter that accented Ħ/ħ is a little offputting, it can still be read as "H". That only leaves one notable exception, which is the problem in romanization of Serbian of what to do with the "Dj" sound. Croats and Bosnians will always use Ð, since they are used to writing in Latin alphabet, no problem and not outside the 26-letter alphabet. Serbians, who write less in Latin-alphabet sometimes use the old Gaj's Latin alphabet form. So we have several footballers called Đoković, but a tennis player called Novak Đoković on his website but Novak Djokovic on his ATF registration. This is, alongside Franz Josef Strauss, one of the very rare examples of a living person with a significant established bona fide English variant which almost qualifies as an English exonym, not quite as true an English exonym as John Calvin for Jean Calvin, but almost a true exonym. These exonyms, or near-exonyms for Djokovic and Strauss need to be in the lede. But the Bronte/Walesa/Ó Fiaich examples are inside the 26-letter alphabet and are at best patronising to our wp readers, at worst considered xenophobic to have spelled-out in Daily Express English in the lede. We also have a specific guideline on WP:EN "Tomás Ó Fiaich not Tomas O Fiaich". I have noted before on WP:EN Talk that "My concern is that "Tomás Ó Fiaich, not Tomas O'Fiaich" doesn't poke editors in the eye and say FOREIGNER! And yet 99.9% of diacritic names will be foreign" Meaning that we need to be careful in this area that we are being even handed about the linguistic/typographic issue - inclusion in the basic 26 letter alphabet, and not letting pro- or anti- national feelings of one sort or another get involved counter WP:WORLDVIEW. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:55, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

• Comment agreeing with IIO here. In terms of character set, we should focus on latin letters and latin accented letters. Thus, the icelandic/old english letters should in general not be used in the title, unless there is a strong preponderance of use in sources. Also, I don't think there is any purpose in listing the diacritic-free version (e.g. Francois Mitterand) in the lead sentence; it is redundant, and it should not be considered an alternative name in most cases, it is rather just a case of low-fidelity reproduction.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:44, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

I think he's not asking about titles at all, but only about whether to include plain-ASCII alternatives in the lead sentence. I think your answers are about right for that, too. The plain ASCII is sometimes helpful, when there's more than simple diacritics, but not always. And the plain ascii is required a redirect, generally. Dicklyon (talk) 20:49, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Dick - what would you consider a helpful example of plain ASCII in the lead - or put another way, what do you consider "simple diacritics"? Dohn joe (talk) 20:55, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

The examples given above, and probably all French and Spanish and most German and other western European, don't need to be repeated without the diacritics (acute and grave accents, cedilla, tilde, circumflex, diaresis are pretty familiar). Even the fancy Hungarian double-acute-accent of Paul Erdős doesn't need a plain-ascii alternative in the lead, I'd think, but its typography is worth discussing later in the article. For letters not recognized as slightly decorated standard Latin letters, we probably want alternatives (eszett, thorn, some ligatures, when English spelling alternatives are available). For some, like Geißenklösterle, there is probably no common ascii version in English sources, so we don't bother (some sources substitute the ss, but they leave the umlaut, so they still don't convert to ascii). For highly accented letters like Vietnamese, I'm not sure what's best; probably depends on prevalence of Anglicized forms in sources. Dicklyon (talk) 02:41, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

I would say we should require, in all cases, a redirect from an all-ascii title to any title with diacritics - or at least strongly encourage. People almost never complain about having too many redirects.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:52, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Dicklyon is correct, the question revolves around the lead sentence. Not titles, not redirects. My apologies for any confusion on this point. --j⚛e decker 22:56, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

• Comment Where the article title contains diacritics or special characters, I think the best solution is to provide a hatnote that explains how the name sometimes is or can be written when the true characters are not available. This hatnote should also link to the Misplaced Pages articles on the individual characters, where details such as pronunciation will also be discussed. Formerly the templates Foreign character and Foreignchars were used for this purpose. They were frequently used and very useful. Unfortunately they were deleted after a discussion over the holiday season December 2011/January 2012. I believe some people misinterpreted the wording as suggesting that the hatnotes in some way gave "permission" for use of diacritic-free spellings. In my opinion the templates should be re-instated; if necessary the text should be amended. --Boson (talk) 21:19, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

That is to cover use of alternate spellings that have not really become established as alternative names but only as alternative spellings that are used because of typographical or other restrictions. Names that have actually become established as (alternative) English names should be listed in the lede, regardless of whether the alternative name merely differs from the article title name in the absence of diacritics. This should apply only to the relatively small number of foreigners who are sufficiently well-known in English speaking countries as to have established English names, for instance because they live in America. Since an English name is established by the English language community (not an editor or systems designer addressing issues like available fonts or collating algorithms) I would normally expect a reasonably large absolute number of mentions in different publications. --Boson (talk) 00:10, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi Boson, you mention "if they live in America", but these "English-name" ledes currently causing problems, despite that they were roundly rejected at the WP:TENNISNAMES RfC, take the form 71x BLPs with

"Manuel Sánchez (born January 5, 1991) and known professionally as Manuel Sanchez, is a tennis player from Mexico...

and another 40x tennis BLP ledes with similar variants, do not live in America. In your view should one of these ledes be accepted into Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Biographies as a credible model for BLPs? In ictu oculi (talk) 03:06, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I have not followed the tennis-player issue, but without evidence that the players are truly so known professionally, I would not think that appropriate in the lede. If it seems likely that a particular source uses a name without diacritics for reasons other than that it is believed to be a correct or established name, I don't think it is appropriate to use that source to determine that the name is established. Some possible reasons for other publications (i.e. not Misplaced Pages) to use a name known to be incorrect (i.e. not established) are that:

• the source has its own style guide, valid only for that publication, which specifies that diacritics are never used, regardless of what is established;
• a "low-fidelity reproduction" of the name is chosen because contributors - given time constraints - might get the diacritics wrong (better consistently wrong than inconsistently right);
• a simplified version of the name is chosen because of current or historical problems (or cost) involved in data transmission, data processing, or collation.

I don't think there is a bright line that will always tell us, without thinking, when a diacritic-free name has become established; it is a matter of editorial judgment. But I think - for spelling purposes - we can safely ignore sources that clearly choose a name based on technical limitations with deliberate disregard for what others (especially the person concerned) regard as correct. If we need to quote sources that deliberately or unintentionally use incorrect names, we should consider adding an explanation or caveat, as we would with "visiters", "seperate", "grammer", or "a looser" (regardless of the number of Google hits). --Boson (talk) 10:40, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi Boson, thanks for your answer. The above are completely reasonable observations and I fully concur with them. I also do not think there is always a bright line, but in the case of the near-exonyms for Djokovic and Strauss there is a bright line - a change not in diacritics but actual alphabet letters in both cases. These need to be in the lede. But if you don't consider the Manuel Sánchez tennis-lede appropriate then I take it you're also in agreement we don't need "also called Bronte" "also known as Walesa" "also known as O Fiaich without the accent" need to be in lede." The issue now then is how we get the issue which Joe has presented as an RfC into Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Biographies in way which makes it clear that Djokovic and Strauss are alternatives but Zoë Baird/Zoe Baird or Sánchez/Sanchez is not. Do you have any suggestions? In ictu oculi (talk) 09:24, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

• Comment I'm not sure this is "only a diacritic/ascii" situation. Right now "Misplaced Pages Policy" (not a guideline) seems to indicate that all significant Alternate names (including different spellings) should be included in the lead... not just a simple little redirect. If that Policy is to stand and is not thrown out with the bathwater, then what it doesn't tell us is "what is a significant alternate name/spelling." Maybe that's what we should key on for biographies and it will vary depending on the person in question. Maybe we should look at something like a check list of the following:

  "what constitutes a significant alternate name?"

  1. Does 50% usage in the English press usually confer a degree of significance?

  2. Does near universal usage in the English press usually confer a degree of significance?

  3. Do the authoritative bodies in a person's profession add to the significance of an alternate name/spelling?

  4. Do the major events a person performs his profession in add to the significance of an alternate name/spelling?

  5. Does a person's registration name for his chosen profession add to the significance of an alternate name/spelling?

  6. Does a person's own personal English websites and/or English signature add to the the significance of an alternate name/spelling?

  Obviously these will vary depending on the profession of a person in our bios but the answers may give us a guideline as to how we handle different situations when they arise in the future. Situations that maybe we can't foresee if we are too general in our yeahs and nays? Maybe this rfc's answers to these questions won't always be 100% accurate but it will be something we could apply to each case as it arises. Obviously the Motion Picture industry allows different names for the actors listed at[REDACTED] and mostly we follow that industry's lead. As far as i know the art industry has no governing body, just venues of display. If every venue the art is displayed spells a name with an "re" instead of an "r" is that a significant alternate form that should be mentioned in an article? I believe the baseball project on[REDACTED] handles names as shown on baseball cards, disregarding other sources. Would that still be proper and should we make sure that if a name is spelled differently on the baseball scoreboard of every stadium in front of the crowds, should it also be mentioned as such in our articles as opposed to just a redirect? Encyclopedia Britannica sometimes shows both diacriticed and non-diacriticed forms of a name in the lead. Is this wrong? If we can agree on these 6 items, or more if others can think of others, then maybe we will have laid some groundwork to an understanding. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:07, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Fyunck, baseball BLPs on en.wp do not do this:

Celerino (Pérez) Sánchez (February 3, 1944 – May 1, 1992) was a Major League baseball third baseman. He was known primarily as an excellent fielder."

Can you please give an example of a non-tennis BLP which has the "Manuel Sánchez (born January 5, 1991) and known professionally as Manuel Sanchez, is a tennis player from Mexico..." format? In ictu oculi (talk) 03:17, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

• Comment. In the context of this RfC it will be good to read to most recent community wide RfC on the question of diacritics in words and names. Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (use English)/Diacritics RfC.

While the proposal was closed with no concensus, it is a relevant read. Basically it was a proposal to retain diacritics in words and names from languages with roman script. So it was a more pro-diacritics proposal. Interesting is the 2nd part of that proposal, quoting: "Common renderings without diacritics (where used in English-language sources) may also appear in the body of the article if that rendering can be cited to reliable sources. Both native and non-diacritic renderings must be adequately cited."

I didn't see any protest against this second part of the proposal, it was the first part that failed to gain broad concensus.

Now, what we see recently is that some of the editors who voted in support of this proposal and thus also in favor of the second part (which states that we can use the rendering without diacritics if it is adequately sourced), have been taking turns to remove the properly sourced rendering without diacritics in articles like Jelena Janković (25 of the sources in that article back up the rendering without diacritics). Maybe they have forgotten their own vote.

So, let's have a look. All our policies currently state that[REDACTED] is spelling and diacritics neutral, which is firmly based in WP:NPOV. I don't think WP is ready to give up on that basic policy. This can only mean that WP is not against anglicized or even ascii-fied spelling, we simply use what our reliable sources use. That's why the mentioned second part of that 2011 proposal made good sense: we can use the rendering without diacritics if that rendering is properly backed up by the sources used for the article. If a certain rendering is only found in one source or in a questionable source, then we can put it away as a typo. But if it appears in several sources for the article, then it is not a typo but an alternative rendering that is quite common in English language usage. We are not against anglicization of names, are we? And we cannot require that our editors do original research to figure out why we find an anglicized rendering in all or part of our sources. We simply report on what we find in our sources for the article. So we mention the alternative rendering, because we want to give complete information to our readers.

Removing properly sourced information from an article goes against our policies, and I see no reason to make an exception for the removal of anglicized names (if they can be cited to the sources for the article). MakeSense64 (talk) 08:34, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

This is exactly the problem, the "tennis sources" being preferred to the WP:IRS "definition of reliable sources": "best such sources".. "sources reliable to the statement being made" are not properly sourced information for Spanish spelling. Which is why no BLP on en.wp except the 100x tennis BLPs with "Manuel Sánchez (born January 5, 1991) and known professionally as Manuel Sanchez, is a tennis player from Mexico..." type ledes are all but unique on en.wp. Same question as for Fyunck. Please provide a non-tennis example. Thanks. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:17, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

1) Why do you go on repeating the same argument, even when it has been pointed out multiple times to you that it is a logical error? Arguing that sources which use anglicized spelling of names are not reliable for spelling is an obvious case of begging the question.

2) Banning anglicized spelling of names from the lede of articles held at diacritics title, would clearly violate WP:NPOV. WP should not be used to advocate a certain spelling in English, rather we are supposed to report on all spelling that is commonly used in reliable English language sources.

3) If a person has conducted all or part of his notable activities under a name that differs from the native spelling of his name, then that is not irrelevant or "obvious" information. If only the diacritics rendering is given in the article, then the reader is left doubting whether some non-diacritics rendering (which he may see in newspaper or tv) is the same person or not. Misplaced Pages tries to give complete information. Even, if a topic is commonly referred to by some "wrong" name, we will usually mention it (properly sourced of course).

4) In the mentioned RfC from last year, a lot of "pro-diacritics" editors already voted in favor of mentioning the non-diacritics rendering of names in the lede (provided they are properly cited). It is reasonable to assume that those who voted against the proposal are also not against mentioning the non-diacritics rendering in the article.

Bottom line: We are trying to find concensus on what is a "significant" alternative name, and whether the anglicized version of a name can be such a "significant" alternative name that needs a mention in the lede? My proposal: if the anglicized rendering of a name appears in a good deal of the sources used for an article, then it is a "significant" alternative rendering and should be included in the lede per our existing policies and guidelines. If an alternative rendering of a name is used in the context of all (or part) of the notable activities of the given person, then it is even more obvious that it is a "significant" alternative name. We can even use the text that our pro-diacritics friends proposed last year:

Proposed text: "Common renderings without diacritics (where used in English-language sources) may also appear in the body of the article if that rendering can be cited to reliable sources. Both native and non-diacritic renderings must be adequately cited."

Who has reasonable objections against such a formulation? MakeSense64 (talk) 07:16, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

MakeSense64

It actually sounds pretty reasonable. We do try to give complete information at wikipedia. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:49, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Can you see above where I ask "Same question again: as for Fyunck. Please provide a non-tennis example. Thanks." Answer that and then I will answer your 4 new questions. Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:12, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I have seen your irrelevant question and if you insist on an answer here is one: I don't know of any article (tennis or non-tennis) currently showing the anglicized version of the name as an alternative rendering, mainly because in the articles I follow some editors have been very busy removing them. For non-tennis examples where the anglicized name used to be given in the lede, you can look at this diff: or this one: .

But even if there were no examples at all, it doesn't mean we shouldn't look into the question whether it makes sense to show anglicized renderings in our articles. And that's the question we were asked to look into in this RfC. One year ago over 60 "pro-diacritics" editors voted in favor of showing both renderings if they are properly sourced. I am curious to know what has changed in the world , so that now the rendering without diacritics should not be shown anymore.

Now I have answered your question, I am looking forward to your answers to my questions. MakeSense64 (talk) 09:55, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

MakeSense64

Okay I see that those past diffs show that someone tried to add a tennis-lede in the past. But the articles today are according to WP:OPENPARA

• Eiður Smári Guðjohnsen (born 15 September 1978) is an Icelandic footballer..
• Céline Marie Claudette Dion (born March 30, 1968), is a Canadian singer...

Do you have an example of a stable Céline/Celine lede in a current non-tennis article?

Please.

Second, you say But even if there were no examples at all, it doesn't mean we shouldn't look into the question whether it makes sense to show anglicized renderings in our articles but I would say it does. Note this diff trying to add something similar to the 100x tennis-ledes to François Mitterrand the edit was immediately rejected by a passing editor, the editor who did it got a topic ban - which you don't agree with I know, but agrees with community rejection of your WP:TENNISNAMES proposal.

As regards your 4 questions.

1) Because of WP:IRS

2) For the same reason Misplaced Pages "Bans" "Censors" spelling errors, mistaken capitalizations and punctuations in the lede. There is no such thing as "English names" except for genuine exonyms. Search "English spelling of his name" in Google Books and see.

3) Seriously? Who is going to think Céline Dion and Celine Dion are two people?

4) Previous RfCs have only supported clear near-exonyms and nationality changes such as Arnold Schoenberg (born Arnold Schönberg), they haven't supported a blanket non-diacritic such as Fyunck has added to 100x tennis ledes.

4b) But for the sake of argument, if previous RfCs are as you say, please provide an example of a stable Céline/Celine lede in a current non-tennis article? In ictu oculi (talk) 11:02, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

If I may jump in - as to 4b), I added "common rendering" language to a few articles, including Lech Wałęsa, Slobodan Milošević, and Nicolae Ceaușescu - all of which were stable for 3-4 weeks, with multiple intervening edits by other editors - until In ictu reverted them. If it weren't for those reversions, it's quite likely that they would still be there. In ictu and I have since had a decent discussion on my talkpage, but I have to say that it seems a little disingenuous to ask for examples of stability when one is actively removing such examples. Dohn joe (talk) 15:52, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

DohnJoe, It is not disingenuous for three reasons: (i) your RM on Lech Wałęsa in 2010 was rejected without any consensus for then adding the "English name" in the lede (ii) your similar edits to Gdansk were also reverted and not by me (iii) who else apart from yourself is adding such ledes to non-tennis biographies? In ictu oculi (talk) 05:45, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

@IIO. Your answers are once again not to the point.

1)You are not addressing the point: arguing that sources which use anglicized spelling of names are not reliable for spelling is a classic case of begging the question. No comments?

2)Who is talking about "English names"? Are you trying to deny that there is something like "anglicized names"?

3)Hah, but not every name is a household name. And[REDACTED] is also written for people who are looking up a topic they know nothing about. Who is going to think that "Xyz Gonzalez" and "Xyz González" could be two different people? Well, it is very possible. So if we would have an article at "Xyz González" but he conducted most of his activities under the name "Xyz Gonzalez" then we need to mention that. If for any other reason he was usually rendered "Xyz Gonzalez" in the sources used for the article, then it is better to mention that. Why this fobia for anglicized names? We have to write our articles from the perspective that some (or even most) readers may not know the topic at all. We cannot take it for granted that the reader knows if "Xyz González" and "Xyz Gonzalez" are the same person. Our article should provide that information.

4)I am not talking about "previous RfCs" but specifically about the most recent RfC in which plenty editors voted in favor of the wording I have quoted in bold. Your answer is once again not to the point.

4b)No need to give any more examples. As Dohn joe confirms, you have been removing anglicized names in all kind of articles, and now you ask us to show a stable example of an article where the alternative anglicized rendering is somehow still included. Heheh?? My neighbor picked all the fruit in his garden and removed it. Then he asked me: "do you see any tree bearing fruit here?" MakeSense64 (talk) 16:42, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

MakeSense64,

1000s of editors all over en.wp are creating articles without these Zoë Baird or Zoe Baird ledes and 3 editors following WP:TENNISNAMES are adding them. Dohn Joes' additions were simply not noticed because of innocuous edit summaries. If Dohn Joe had written "Lech Wałęsa (commonly rendered Lech Walesa)" as the edit summary chances are it would have been reverted more quickly.

Anyway, same question - please provide a non-tennis example. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:45, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

• Comment (on the RfC, not the above digressions): "significant alternate names" (a.k.a. ignorant laziness by English speakers) should appear in the lead and exist as redirects. There is no excuse for Misplaced Pages being inaccurate. Ever. Including when some people hate diacritics for reasons that are often questionably rational. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ   Contrib. 04:01, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

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