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| Not all the best copyright status, but some may be useful for reference nonetheless. I'll let you know about future releases. ] (]) 11:10, 1 August 2012 (UTC) | Not all the best copyright status, but some may be useful for reference nonetheless. I'll let you know about future releases. ] (]) 11:10, 1 August 2012 (UTC) | ||
| == Historical periods and toponyms == | |||
| Hi all, | |||
| Just having a discussion about the creation of an article regarding the occupation of the territory of modern-day Serbia during WW2, and would like to get a wider view as I am getting confused about what is common practice. Essentially, the question is whether it is ok to create articles about the occupation of a topographical area in WW2. The newly created article is ]. See ] discussion. My query is whether it is ok to create such articles. As I put it on the talkpage, would it be ok to create an article ] given Malaysia wasn't actually topographically defined that way during WW2 (ie there wasn't a defined topographical area called 'Malaysia' during WW2)? I can see there would be a need to have a section about WW2 in the ] article (and there is), but an article on its own? Your views would be appreciated. Thanks, ] (]) 14:42, 1 August 2012 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 14:42, 1 August 2012
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Infobox military person image param needs updating
Please join discussion at Infobox military person image param needs updating. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:17, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
- Really! Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:09, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
Henry VIII of England
Hi guy, I'm looking for a collaborator(s) on this article. It's one of MILHIST's top viewed pages, with 9,000 daily views, and few people could dispute the importance of the subject. It's also got a wide range of scholarship (arguably disproportionately so). I've got two good works on the topic with me, and I think although the article in general is poor the structure isn't bad. Nor is most of it controversial. Thanks, Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 15:08, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
- Can see what I can do. Which two works have you got to hand? Hchc2009 (talk) 18:08, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
- Scarisbrick and Loades. Why we don't have an article on the former, I don't know. (OK, it's because no-one's written it.) Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 18:14, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
- OK. I'm leaving a message on the article talk page regarding the citation system, which is all over the place at the moment, and which we could usefully sort out at an early stage. Hchc2009 (talk) 18:29, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
- Scarisbrick and Loades. Why we don't have an article on the former, I don't know. (OK, it's because no-one's written it.) Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 18:14, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
Barry Cooke
New article on US Navy aviator Barry Cooke who doesnt appear to be particularly notable, just looking for project view on this. MilborneOne (talk) 21:18, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
- I proded the article but it has been removed with the comment that he was one of the few killed in Operation Desert Storm whose remains were never recovered. Scott Speicher also has an article. I couldnt see much notability in either aviator but before going for AfD need some advice on the trend towards recentism for memorial articles. It appears that particularly in articles about Americans that memorial pages spring up all the time. If this is a change in direction fine but we should start to create articles for all those who were lost in the vietnam war or even the second world war. MilborneOne (talk) 18:38, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
B class Backlog
As most of you are aware I've been contributing to the decrease of the "B class" Backlog over the last year. Finally at a second discouraging point in the backlog, it seems more and more articles are being written without the "B class" being done than I am able to complete and go through. It has been hovering between 21,778 and 21,790 for the last few days and I seem to be unable to get passed that magical 21,750. It would be appreciate if some more helpers could help with just a few to get past this struggling point I am having. In all, whoever has been helping over the past year to bring it down from around 27,800 down to where it is today, I would like to congratulate you for your consistent persistence with an overwhelming number of articles which grow each day while combating to decrease the number everyday. Any help would be appreciated very much. Adamdaley (talk) 22:31, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
- Just to note for those not in the know, but interested in helping, this is the category Adam is talking about. It's not hard to assess the B-class checklist, and there is relevant information here if you're interested. Parsecboy (talk) 22:49, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
- I've made my way through some of them, and will continue to do so. Intothatdarkness 14:25, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
- Intothat – It's appreciated. I can remember when the backlog was around 27,800 a year ago. I would have been happy to get 5,000 completed in my year as a Military History Coordinator, while we have achieved that as a Wikiproject and more. I realise that it was not done all myself and there are people out there whoever they maybe have certainly contributed to this BIG reduction in such a short time. Adamdaley (talk) 00:58, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
- A while ago I committed myself to doing 5 a day. Unfortunately I've rarely managed that - taking an uppercut for my laziness! I'll give it another go. Anotherclown (talk) 22:10, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
- I know I most do assessment and categorizing but once I am through with my divorce and clear those backlogs again I can probably help with the B-Class Checklist like in the past. --MOLEY (talk) 21:08, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
- A while ago I committed myself to doing 5 a day. Unfortunately I've rarely managed that - taking an uppercut for my laziness! I'll give it another go. Anotherclown (talk) 22:10, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
- Intothat – It's appreciated. I can remember when the backlog was around 27,800 a year ago. I would have been happy to get 5,000 completed in my year as a Military History Coordinator, while we have achieved that as a Wikiproject and more. I realise that it was not done all myself and there are people out there whoever they maybe have certainly contributed to this BIG reduction in such a short time. Adamdaley (talk) 00:58, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
Redirect Shows as incomplete B Class Checklist
I am raising this again because I can finally cite examples. It would appear that Talk Pages using {{WPMILHIST|class=redirect}} appear on the list of articles with incomplete B class checklists. This would include Talk:List of United States Air Force tactical air support squadrons, Talk:List of United States Air Force range support squadrons, Talk:List of USAF Air Base Wings assigned to Strategic Air Command, and Talk:List of USAF Support Wings assigned to Strategic Air Command, Talk:List of United States Air Force air rescue squadrons Does the template need to be changed, or do we just need to delete it when it shows up, --Lineagegeek (talk) 21:20, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
- On Talk:List of United States Air Force tactical air support squadrons i have just added list=yes after the class parameter and the category has been removed. Gavbadger (talk) 21:29, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
- Further, i believe this may be caused by the template being changed because of the new CL/BL etc list option because there is a new category that i have never seen or heard of before called Category:Military history lists incorrectly assessed as articles. Gavbadger (talk) 21:31, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
- This is an issue with the template-generated category cache mechanism, not anything specific to our template; in broad terms, a page can still appear in the listing on a category page even though the page itself no longer shows that category.
- The easiest way to fix this is to perform a null edit (i.e. click the edit button and then click "Save page" without making any changes), which forces the category cache to refresh. Kirill 23:50, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
- Perhaps I was unclear. The Talk Page itself displays the template that shows the article is in the redirect category for WPMILHIST properly (The change to the talk page has been completed). However, the talk page still appears on the list of WPMILHIST Lists with incomplete B Class checklists --Lineagegeek (talk) 20:32, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, that's what I was referring to. The main listing doesn't actually update in real time; that's a limitation of the MediaWiki category caching system, unfortunately, so there's really no way for us to fix it. Kirill 21:05, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
- Are you talking about talk pages that the "main article" is actually a redirect to a differant article? I have been redirecting those talk pages to the talk page of the other article. Wild Wolf (talk) 19:00, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
- Yes these are talk pages where the main article is a redirect. --Lineagegeek (talk) 20:10, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
- But what is the etiquette for doing this if the talk page indicates another Wiki Project is involved? --Lineagegeek (talk) 20:32, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
- Perhaps I was unclear. The Talk Page itself displays the template that shows the article is in the redirect category for WPMILHIST properly (The change to the talk page has been completed). However, the talk page still appears on the list of WPMILHIST Lists with incomplete B Class checklists --Lineagegeek (talk) 20:32, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
Battle of Assal Uttar/Khem Karan
I would like editors who have interest/knowledge/expertise in reviewing battles to review this case of Battle of Asal Uttar. This battle was fought in 1965 between India and Pakistan at Khem Karan. According to a number of sources, Indian forces were pushed back and the town of Khem Karan which is in India was captured by Pakistan. Further offensive by Pakistan's armored division was stopped successfully by the Indian army at Asal Uttar that is some 5 kilometers Northeast of Khem Karan. After that India tried to push Pakistan back but they couldn't succeed and one of their whole battalion (4 Sikh) surrendered after suffering heavy casualties, 4 Mahar also tried but suffered heavy causalities. The town of Khem Karan remained with Pakistan till the ceasefire. The same has been recorded by the then Defence Minister Y B Chavan in his diary.
Now some editors are of the view that India won this battle decisively, backed by some sources. My question regarding it is that is it considered:
- Victory for India
- Victory for Pakistan
- Stalemate
Besides this I will also like to have opinion about the title of the article. Some refer to it as "Battle of Khem Karan", where most of the battle was fought while some name it "Battle of Asal Uttar". --SMS 21:32, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
- How do the reliable sources on this battle (including both those published in India and Pakistan) describe it? If reliable sources provide differing accounts, then the article should cover this. Nick-D (talk) 10:26, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
- Most of the sources don't cover the battle in detail, Indian authors mostly cover what happened in Asal Uttar (.i.e. only 2-3 days of about 18 day war), while I tried to look for what Pakistani authors or anyone involved in the battle have written but couldn't find any reliable source online that covers the battle thoroughly. Some sources which I came across say somewhat close to what I wrote above. Let me add them here, so you can read yourself what the author is saying:
- Pradeep P. Barua (2005). The State at War in South Asia. University of Nebraska Press. pp. 188–190.
- R. D. Pradhan (2007). 1965 War: The Inside Story. Atlantic Publishers. pp. 42–47, 54–56.
- Jogindar Singh (1998). Behing the Scene: An Analysis of India's Military Operations 1947-71. Lancer International. pp. 151–180.
- The last book is by the Chief of Staff of Indian Western Command during 1965, besides the GOC of Indian Western Command Harbaksh Singh has also written a memoir, which covers this but not thoroughly. A history of the Pakistan army by Brian Cloughley published by Oxford University Press also looks like a reliable source that covers the battle comprehensively, but has limited access online. --SMS 21:19, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
- Most of the sources don't cover the battle in detail, Indian authors mostly cover what happened in Asal Uttar (.i.e. only 2-3 days of about 18 day war), while I tried to look for what Pakistani authors or anyone involved in the battle have written but couldn't find any reliable source online that covers the battle thoroughly. Some sources which I came across say somewhat close to what I wrote above. Let me add them here, so you can read yourself what the author is saying:
Sacred Band of Thebes
Article is currently undergoing a major expansion. Please join the discussion at Talk:Sacred Band of Thebes#NPOV and David Leitao. Thank you. -- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 15:22, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
Use of reenactment images
In the last few days photographs of reenactment scenes have been deleted from both the English Civil War and Red coat (British Army) articles. In the ECW case the reason given was that it had been "removed per WP:Milhist policy". Grateful for confirmation that there is such a policy. This is not a contended issue - simply a request for guidance. If reenactments photos are acceptable then there may be a case for restoring the Redcoat picture since it illustrated a point made in the neighboring text.121.73.91.201Buistr (talk) 04:36, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
- Can't find the guidance but my recollection of previous discussion is re-enactment/reconstruction image use depends on the purpose (they shouldn't be used where they would mislead, where suitable authentic images exist or simply for decoration), their degree of accuracy and their utility in illustrating the point. For example, an image of a museum quality reconstruction of Roman armour may be of more use than an image of some rusty frangments. However, if we do have a policy, I'm sure other editors will be able to direct us to it. Monstrelet (talk) 09:21, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
- Such a policy would likely be detailed in WP:MILMOS, and I see nothing that disallows use of reenactor photos. IMO, the use of reenactor photos is not much different to using paintings, in that they represent a historical event where live photos are unavailable. In the case of most early Redcoat wars, pre-Crimean War, one of the first photographed wars, there is often little choice as paintings are usually of specific battles or notable figures. Giving readers a rough idea of how things would have appeared with modern photos is not really harmful, nor WP:OR, in the sense that photos are supportive not primary content to be cited. The standards for FA quality articles may be less sympathetic towards recreations, but up to there, I don't see why there should be any problem. The editor claiming policy is wrong, or needs to link to the specific page and section detailing this so-called policy, not to MILHIST in general, as that's passing the buck - he needs to take responsibility for such claims. If there has been a discussion about the matter in the past, which I personally don't recall, the outcome needs of it needs to be determined and entered into project policy clearly, so as to be widely available to everyone, not just a few editors to use when they feel like it. Cheers, Ma®©usBritish 09:19, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
- Just to point out User:MarcusBritish and my replies crossed in the ether. I support his view about clarifying, though I do have a recollection of previous discussion, which, as he says, did also cover the use of artistic images significantly postdating events (e.g. Victorian illustrations of the Ancient World), to which similar considerations apply. Monstrelet (talk) 09:27, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
- I don't believe that there's any policy ('official' or otherwise) in regards to photos of reenactors. Where the reenactors are credible (eg, they don't look like this guy!) and no better images are available, such photos can be quite valuable. Lots of serious history books use photos of reenactors in such circumstances - though the recent Osprey book on the Battle of Mons Graupius which features a photo of a Roman Army enenactment group which included a woman in armour and lots of fat men was rather bizarre! Nick-D (talk) 09:42, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for the clear and prompt response to my query above. I have restored the deleted photograph to the Red coat (British Army) article citing the credibility/purpose guidelines given above and noting that the reenactment group shown present an unusually authentic appearance for an English regiment of foot 1812-16 (uniforms accurate, side whiskers visible but no mustaches, ages about right, no spectacles or pot-bellies). In respect of purpose, a point made in the text that the scarlet of officers' coats differed visibly from the duller madder red of those of other ranks shows clearly in the colour photo. The ECW reenactment photo remains deleted. Buistr (talk) 12:02, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
- Having seen reenactors who are about as far form what you would have seen (excelent kit though) in terms of age and health I would be warry of using such photos, but the photo in nthe red coat article does look good..Slatersteven (talk) 14:08, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for the clear and prompt response to my query above. I have restored the deleted photograph to the Red coat (British Army) article citing the credibility/purpose guidelines given above and noting that the reenactment group shown present an unusually authentic appearance for an English regiment of foot 1812-16 (uniforms accurate, side whiskers visible but no mustaches, ages about right, no spectacles or pot-bellies). In respect of purpose, a point made in the text that the scarlet of officers' coats differed visibly from the duller madder red of those of other ranks shows clearly in the colour photo. The ECW reenactment photo remains deleted. Buistr (talk) 12:02, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
- Nick-D I am not sure that your example is as bad as you think. When looking for a suitable image for Red coat (British army), I came across this ;-) -- PBS (talk) 16:34, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
World War II Radar Units
http://www.campevans.org/_CE/docs/theater-deployment-2009-06-01.pdf
Found this document while searching for something else. Thought it might be of interest to some of the members. Bwmoll3 (talk) 04:02, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
A challenge.....
I was looking at stubby core articles and was surprised by the state of Soldier - c'mon, this could even be a 5x expand for DYK surely. A challenge anyone to do it...the reward? A warm fuzzy inner glow and kudos....Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:25, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
The Bugle links to May not July
Just a quick note that The Bugle links are to the May newsletter rather than the July one. Secretlondon (talk) 18:11, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, I used preview but didn't click the links. I've redirected the May pages to July for the time being. Ed 20:07, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
Change of article name
Is one Google search sufficient justification, for changing the name of an article, without consultation? --Rskp (talk) 03:17, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
FAC update
We've got 3 current FACs that are roughly 4 weeks old or older: HMS Bellerophon (1786), May Revolution and Iraq War in Anbar Province. Bellerophon and Iraq War in Anbar have two supports; it would be a shame if they die for lack of a third. (May Revolution may have a tougher time; it has no supports yet, on its fifth nomination.) - Dank (push to talk) 03:19, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
Discretionary sanctions now in place for all all pages related to India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan, broadly construed
Editors who work on articles involving the military history of these three countries should note that the Arbitration Committee has placed these articles under discretionary sanctions, which allow admins to respond to problematic editing with sterner than normal measures where necessary. The details are available at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Arbitration motion regarding Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/India-Pakistan. Nick-D (talk) 10:04, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
Trip to Gettysburg
Hi me and my uncle are planning a trip to Gettysburg first going to Washington D.C. We plan to go to the Smithsonian but is there anything else we should look at that would be of historic interest. We will only go for about a week so we would have about five days to look at stuff. Please help Nhog — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nhog (talk • contribs) 20:43, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
- List of museums in Washington, D.C. might be of interest to you. The Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center is well worth the trip if you have an interest in historic aircraft. Nick-D (talk) 10:34, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
Talk: Sandy Hook
Eyes, please, I'm gone. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:31, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
Military strategy
This as well. I'm done dealing with ignorant dicks who apparently cannot undertsnad simply Emglish. Beyond My Ken (talk) 10:20, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
Chilean ship Porvenir
What type of ship was the Chilean Navy's Porvenir that was in service in 1927? A better wikilink is needed at List of shipwrecks in 1927 please. Mjroots (talk) 15:50, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
- I should be able to check this tomorrow. Slap me with a trout if I forget. Ed 16:09, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
- Nothing in the 1905 or 1922 volumes of Conways.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 16:19, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
- The signal:noise ratio is not good, because it's named after a port, and there have been other ships carrying the same name (example example etc). However, the Meteor expedition met a Chilean "survey vessel" by that name, at around that time. bobrayner (talk) 16:29, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
- I have a list of Chilean Navy ships somewhere through archive.org -- I have to find the site and play with the url (the ships are listed alphabetically, but there's no list, so I have to change the number in the url to find it) Ed 16:30, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
- That would be very useful. this also identifies a vermessungsschiff (ie. survey vessel) called "Porvenir" in the same area and era. bobrayner (talk) 16:36, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
- So we might be leaning towards RV Porvenir then? Mjroots (talk) 18:43, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
- Neither of the sources I found called it RV, so that would be an odd choice, but we could wait for Ed's results... bobrayner (talk) 19:46, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
- So we might be leaning towards RV Porvenir then? Mjroots (talk) 18:43, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
- That would be very useful. this also identifies a vermessungsschiff (ie. survey vessel) called "Porvenir" in the same area and era. bobrayner (talk) 16:36, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
- I have a list of Chilean Navy ships somewhere through archive.org -- I have to find the site and play with the url (the ships are listed alphabetically, but there's no list, so I have to change the number in the url to find it) Ed 16:30, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
- The signal:noise ratio is not good, because it's named after a port, and there have been other ships carrying the same name (example example etc). However, the Meteor expedition met a Chilean "survey vessel" by that name, at around that time. bobrayner (talk) 16:29, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
- Nothing in the 1905 or 1922 volumes of Conways.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 16:19, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
AfDs
USS Illinois (BB-65) and USS Kentucky (BB-66) have both been nominated for deletion. Mjroots (talk) 19:05, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
WWI digital resources
Hi all,
A few recently uploaded collections from the Europeana 1914-1918 project that may be useful:
- 2,000 photographs from Denmark (unfortunately labelled CC-BY-NC-SA)
- 16,000 photographs from Italy - this one seems to mainly be an index without thumbnails, but does link through to the main repository. "free access, rights reserved"
- 14,000 Austrian newspaper issues - "rights unknown", but may be PD?
- 22,000 pages(?) of the Italian Illustrated War News - "free access, rights reserved"
Not all the best copyright status, but some may be useful for reference nonetheless. I'll let you know about future releases. Andrew Gray (talk) 11:10, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
Historical periods and toponyms
Hi all, Just having a discussion about the creation of an article regarding the occupation of the territory of modern-day Serbia during WW2, and would like to get a wider view as I am getting confused about what is common practice. Essentially, the question is whether it is ok to create articles about the occupation of a topographical area in WW2. The newly created article is Occupation of Serbia in World War II. See this discussion. My query is whether it is ok to create such articles. As I put it on the talkpage, would it be ok to create an article Occupation of Malaysia in World War II given Malaysia wasn't actually topographically defined that way during WW2 (ie there wasn't a defined topographical area called 'Malaysia' during WW2)? I can see there would be a need to have a section about WW2 in the History of Malaysia article (and there is), but an article on its own? Your views would be appreciated. Thanks, Peacemaker67 (talk) 14:42, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
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