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/Archive 1 /Archive 2 Up to March 2007 Up to June 2008

Separation of Church and State Section -- Needs to be Re-Done

The section on "Separation of Church and State" should be re-done. First, the Section is not (fully) written from a neutral standpoint. The Article section says at one point: "Christian Right believes in X, even though writings suggest not X." Writings suggest? Who says they suggest this? The writings could be open to multiple interpretations. The point should be re-phrased so that it is given from a more neutral standpoint. It should instead say that, scholar X or scholar Y, or that some people, believe the writings suggest otherwise. Second, the section says, "Because the Christian right does not believe in separation of Church and State..." This is ambiguous and, I fear, is also quite wrong. It is ambiguous because it fails to address that there are two things going on: Separation of Church and State as a matter of Constitutional Interpretation, and Separation of Church and State as a political belief. And if the claim is the Christian Right doesn't believe in it as a Constitutional Interpretation, that's a huge overstatement to make. The Christian Right is not suggesting it doesn't exist; it merely suggests that its scope is more limited than others believe. The Christian Right is not suggesting the Constitution would allow for the government to be run by Mullahs or Priests. And if the claim is about the Christian Right's political belief of not believing in separation of Church and State.. well, Really? So the Christian right wants to have a theocracy like you seen in Iran? A few extremists might hold this view, but it is not held by the Christian Right generally. The Christian Right believes the Ten Commandments should be allowed to be displayed in Courts and that prayer time should be allowed in public schools. To equate this with not believing in Separation of Church and State is making way too big of a leap. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.27.165.9 (talk) 02:23, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

That all this is your opinion just. Its not any less or more valid than anybody else's as you have absolutely no citations to back up any of your things. There have been various statements made that CaS separation is a myth by Christ right figures. You can't either deny that, do you?!? You mainly only seek to define what such disbelief means. You make delineations between different types of CaS separation disbelief out of thin-air. And you do this without any sources. Instead of such, you employ what they call I believe "non-sequitors". No one has here has made edits supporting a clear comparison of the Christ right with Muslim figures in the Mid-East to be exact. But just because they are not that, doesn't change their disbelief in the CaS separation.

Both of you faggots should can it. Really articles like this should probably be trashed mostly because it describes a fully abstract idea that is not founded well in any true scholerly research. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.137.190.52 (talk) 01:08, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

I am a third party to the discussion but let me say this. In all candor, you "Anon" are a very rude person. You have no business telling anyone to do anything. No one solicited your opinion in the first place. And your use of slurs only further illustrates your lack of class. It shows a lack of courage to speak in such a way with an anonymous address. And invoking such intellectual terms as "scholarly research" are absolutely hilarious when one researches your own history and finds your anonymous address has made only one edit, this one above. Thus you lack any evidence to show that you have any understand of the words you type. You just are very fortunate that you weren't talking to me in the first place!4.252.212.184 (talk) 23:34, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

disputed neutrality

I do not think this quote is npov "It promotes conservative or literal interpretations of the Bible as the basis for moral values, and enforcing such values by legislation.

Therefore, it opposes federal funding of science. They feel science often contradicts the Bible, especially fields that they feel violate the right to life"

The reason is it implies a conservative or literal interpretation of the bible leads to conservative politics. This needs proof. Alternatively a less ambitious project would be just to show, through citation, that the religious right believe that a conservative or literal translation of the bible mandates right wing policies. Also there needs to be a citation if you are to say they oppose federal funding for science (and have they done this repeatedly?). The last sentence is not npov.—Preceding unsigned comment added by128.163.161.87 (talk) 16:25, 20 August 2010 (UTC) From the opening photo this articles trys to portray conservative christians as ignorant.This is proabably one of the worst articles I ve yet to see on wiki and needs to be torn down and started again.I cannot stress just how awful this article acutally is.It is an insult to those of who love jesus and dont side with democratic party.I cannot believe that this sort of garbage has been allowed to continue.Unless I can acutally see the christian point of view acuratetly portrayed in this article then it needs to go.Misplaced Pages is not a place for you to bash those you disagree with.Wikimakesmart (talk) 23:56, 26 August 2010 (UTC)One might think that you don't need to talk in such a mannor.It is no good to spead such bad meanness.Plus this is only one website and while as it is popular, it is hardly the only and final word on most any subject. If you find this place not to your liking there are always other such similar places. Perhaps you might care for Conservapedia better? To be sure, it is not my place as a new person to welcome of bannish you from anywhere.However, I think this place needs to be where different person can agree on things as a group. That is what I mean when I caution you about your words.For me, I can say as a Christian, that in my opinion, this article is not as bad as you say it is.Perhaps you should even put your religion above your politics. Christ is more important than anything, inculding a election.Mixing the two can lead to bad things like you want, in my home country this has happen.Waitesson (talk) 20:07, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure if that comment was directed at me. My suggestions were merely honest suggestions for improvement. When I'm reading this article i want to know 1. what is their beliefs 2. what is their history and how did they evolve. 3. what is the theological and philisophical justification for their beliefs. 4. what are theological and philisophical critiques of their beliefs. Much of this is missing and I think these are the key questions that should organize the article. At the moment the article misses all the academic points of interest and merely paints them scandolously (obviously they are controversial and why they are should be covered in point 4). For me for example, I'm a christian from another country who tends left on the political spectrum and i went to this article trying to get some information on why american christian conservatives were against say free health care and cap and trade. Is it theological opposition? Is it philisophical? Is it deeply rooted traditions? I have heard mention of 1 thess 3:20 "those who do not work should not eat" to critique the social welfare state from a american conservative. Presumably a theological discussion would include this. Is there someone knowledgeable on this subject that can help? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.163.229.151 (talk) 21:41, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

backing up a claim

The claim that the religious right started not with roe verse wade, but with anti-segregation laws, is an interesting one. Is there more to back it up than one quote? Also some research on how the religious right developed after roe verse wade would be good. Also it is my understanding that the religious right technically goes back to the french revolution?

Before the revolution there were many. See http://en.wikipedia.org/Christianity_and_homosexuality

A more detailed history would be good (there are more countries in the world than the usa :P). Also a summary of their theological basis would be good to as well as a summary of criticisms of their theology. I'm a little flakey on what i know about their theology but i believe it goes something like this:

theological opposition to the welfare state: "those who don't work should not eat" theological opposition to government programs: "giving should be private (scriptures..." theological opposition to labor unions, financial regulations: no idea lol etc.

then presumably the theological criticism would be based on tzedakah laws (where the law required giving to the poor, through pe'ah also through a 10% offering given every third year not to be confused with the tithe), verse where paul says there should be equality etc. you get the idea. Considering this is a christian issue i just think there should be theological summaries here —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.163.161.87 (talk) 16:17, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

On that one point, I am afraid you are being mistaken, sir or madam. It is not one quote, no. It is an entire book with quotes that are many from the leading "Christian right" figures of the day at the time. Look more carefully there maybe? The book, as I know it, has never been questioned in terms of the authentic / accuracy of the sourcing of the quotations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.252.208.60 (talk) 02:01, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Tithing as charity is not limited to only those who do not work but is also for the greater good of society. See in Deuteronomy, Christians are directed to not only give ten percent of their income, but to give their first and their best. This means Christians should strive to not only pay or take out tithes upon receiving your paycheck, but to always put God above your bills and other responsibilities.

So God is a directive to follow, not a specific charity. God in and of itself is a practice and belief. Extending such goes beyond that which we are able to appreciate the image. Tithing is not limited to humans. For we shall give unto other animals that sustain us but not unto other humans who seek to overcome.

Unbalanced

This page is unbalanced and the fact that it is a Christian or religious article should not make it immune to the Misplaced Pages principles. The Christian right movement is at the center of a great many controversies that are not mentioned here. Their leadership’s agenda is not addressed here. There are a great many people that not only disagree with their views but feel they are doing great harm to the United States and our citizens. Many people feel they are “manipulating” the politic system not the least of which is Americans United for the Separation of Church and State. Americans United They do not just believe homosexuality is a “choice” and that homosexuals can be rehabilitated. They actively preach and work to inhibit gay citizen’s rights. These are just a few of the issues not addressed in this article. Someone needs to address these issues of imbalance.Slarabee (talk) 12:19, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

The section on “Moral issues and general beliefs” could be changed to reflect more detailed attacks made at different times as well as mentioning the opposition to such campaigning. But the main purpose of the article is on who and when, rather than the detailed political issues, which are dealt with under, for example sodomy law, LGBT rights opposition and the List of LGBT rights by region articles. Billwilson5060 (talk) 15:02, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Uniquely American...?

The first paragraph of the section "Movements Outside the United States" quotes from Micklethwait and Wooldridge (The Right Nation) saying that those things that characterize the Christian Right are "distinctly American." Placed in the larger context of the "Religious Right" this is certainly not true. Throughout the world there are today many reactionary social movements that reject progressive secularism (e.g. radical Islam). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.82.7.243 (talk) 06:51, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

See Religious right as opposed to just Christian. Maybe there should be a link to that page either at that point or when the terminology is discussed near the top - at the moment the only one is in the list at the bottom. Billwilson5060 (talk) 09:28, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

There's been a fundamentalist revival under way in pretty much every world religion, true. However the "religious right" is indeed uniquely American; their particular ideology is not embraced by any meaningful groups anywhere outside of the United States. It shows especially in their promoting American nationalism and the world dominance of the United States; radical Islam, by contrast, tends to be hostile towards national entities and stresses the importance of a community of believers that transcends national boundaries. It also shows in their marriage to free market capitalism (see Prosperity Theology); islamists by contrast tend to be more on the left economically (see Iran's economic policies). In short, the religious right may be similar to other fundamentalist movements, but it's still a product of the United States (specifically the deep South), which is very unlike religious movements (Christian or non-Christian) in the rest of the world. 147.9.238.235 (talk) 21:06, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Contemporary Christian Music

I personally see no reason why any mention of Contemporary Christian Music should be included in this article. The only connection CCM has to the article in terms of actual text is that, allegedly , "Contemporary Christian Music has a large influence on the youth of the Christian Right". That's it. The rest of the text talks about CCM itself. A hundred different things could influence the CR youth, so what?

Compare that to television, the other subject mentioned in the "Media" section of the article. There specific examples are given to show how the CR used television to further itself aims. Notice the contrast.

I could imagine a scenario where CCM deserves a mention here, if one could find a CCM artist who was active in the CR movement.TakeMyRollerCoaster (talk) 08:54, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

capitalization (Christian Right vs Christian right)

Minor style issue: the article needs to use either "Christian Right" or "Christian right" consistently. As it stands, the article is titled "Christian right", so that's how it should be throughout the article...
However, WP:TITLE#Lowercase says "Do not capitalize second and subsequent words unless the title is almost always capitalized in English", and I believe it almost always is capitalized (confirmed by scanning through many pages of Google results), so I believe the article should be renamed "Christian Right". Comments?

I think it should be capitalized always as it is the title of a group. Hippychick 16:04, 5 August 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hippychickali (talk • contribs)

Basics Before Issues

Establish: Is this article the Christian right in the USA or Globally; Establish who constitutes the Christian right; Establish numbers (need to determine method/source to define the numbers) Zeke Canidae (talk) 04:35, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Primarily US, to a lesser extent Anglo-Saxon/English-speaking countries (Can, UK, Aus, NZ), to a far lesser extent the rest of the world -- the problem being that the further away you get from the US, culturally speaking, the less that generalisations can be made. Better to establish what the most reliable academic source is on the subject, and rely primarily upon their definitions and descriptions. Hrafn_Stalk(P) 05:12, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Christian right and Israel

This site: talks abut the relationship between Israel and Christian right.Agre22 (talk) 13:14, 17 August 2009 (UTC)agre22

Strictly Protestant?

The article focuses mainly on the Evangelical Christian Right, particurally in the United States. What about right-wing Catholic movements? For instance, the French religious right is almost uniformly Catholic (Society of St. Pius X, Christine Boutin, Movement for France, and early movements like Cite catholique). Would anyone object to adding a French section, if we point out the prevailence of Catholicism. A similar argument could be made for the Polish religious right (LPR, etc.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.203.119.71 (talk) 06:14, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

That's an incredibly mixed bag. SSPX does not appear to be politically active, which is probably why it is not included. Movement for France does not appear to be overtly Christian (though its aideology appear to be congruent with Christian Right, so if evidence of Christian-affiliation can be given, I see no problem with inclusion). Cite catholique & Christian Democratic Party (France) (Boutin's party) could probably be added. Hrafn_Stalk(P) 06:48, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Sex Education as a "Spectrum"

The article makes the following claim: "On the issue of sexual education in public school's, a spectrum of views exist, from advocating no sex education in public schools to advocating abstinence until marriage, to advocating complete modesty and chastity."

How is that a spectrum? Advocating abstinence only is, in fact, no sex education. Advocating "completely modesty and chastity" is no sex education. And how is "chastity" different from sexual abstinence? As for modesty, must one be also modest and self-effacing to be sexually inactive? If so aren't purity rings a form of boasting? Calendo (talk) 16:11, 20 August 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Calendo (talk • contribs) 15:52, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Netherlands - Reformed Party & church-state

Netherlands section now says the Reformed Party opposes church state separation. The ideology section of its WP aricle says the contrary:

The party is a strict defender of the separation between church and state, rejecting "both the state church and church state". Both church and state are believed to have distinct roles in society, while working towards the same goal, but despite this, the SGP advocates theocracy. The SGP opposes freedom of religion, but advocates freedom of conscience instead, noting that "obedience to the law of God cannot be forced".

AndersW (talk) 02:36, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

The section on "Separation of Church and State" should be re-done.

First, the Section is not (fully) written from a neutral standpoint. The Article section says at one point: "Christian Right believes in X, even though writings suggest not X." Writings suggest? Who says they suggest this? The writings could be open to multiple interpretations. The point should be re-phrased so that it is given from a more neutral standpoint. It should instead say that, scholar X or scholar Y, or that some people, believe the writings suggest otherwise.

Second, the section says, "Because the Christian right does not believe in separation of Church and State..." This is ambiguous and, I fear, is also quite wrong. It is ambiguous because it fails to address that there are two things going on: Separation of Church and State as a matter of Constitutional Interpretation, and Separation of Church and State as a political belief. And if the claim is the Christian Right doesn't believe in it as a Constitutional Interpretation, that's a huge overstatement to make. The Christian Right is not suggesting it doesn't exist; it merely suggests that its scope is more limited than others believe. The Christian Right is not suggesting the Constitution would allow for the government to be run by Mullahs or Priests. And if the claim is about the Christian Right's political belief of not believing in separation of Church and State.. well, Really? So the Christian right wants to have a theocracy like you seen in Iran? A few extremists might hold this view, but it is not held by the Christian Right generally. The Christian Right believes the Ten Commandments should be allowed to be displayed in Courts and that prayer time should be allowed in public schools. To equate this with not believing in Separation of Church and State is making way too big of a leap. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.27.165.9 (talk) 02:21, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I'd disagree on numerous counts. First of all, your examples really have noting to do with one's belief (or lack thereof) of a Separation of Church and State - the example(s) given are instead the most extreme possible outcome of such a situation; but not necessarily the one being promoted. Secondly, numerous of those labeled (self or by others) as part of the Christian Right have, on numerous occasions, called the Separation of Church and State a fiction. Searching Google alone (instead of relying on the numerous cites in the article that will lead you to such claims) for "separation of church and state a fiction" will lead you to many many results, numerous of which are relevant. Just a thought (or two) before you do any revisions that are highly contrary to dozens of references that can be provided to support the article's claim. Best, Robert ROBERTMFROMLI /_CNTRB 22:57, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

How is intelligent design not a pseudoscience?

Since intelligent design is a pseudoscience, should it not be added to the article, wherever it is mentioned? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.67.83.100 (talk) 05:34, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

You cannot insert any claims without a reliable source to back them up. You've made multiple POV edits to the article with no citations, and that is not permitted by various polices. You may also wish to start with The Five Pillars and work your way through the other links I have provided as well, in order to gain a better understanding. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI /_CNTRB 05:37, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Side note: I definitely do appreciate the fact that you have started discussion about this looking for explanations instead of continuing to make changes. Thanks, ROBERTMFROMLI /_CNTRB 05:38, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

I can see how my other edits could be seen as POV, that's fine. But I can find cites for the pseudoscience claims, unless I misunderstand what constitutes a cite. Do you mean articles back up my claim? From Misplaced Pages itself you have the definition of pseudoscience: http://en.wikipedia.org/Pseudoscience which states:

"Pseudoscience is a claim, belief, or practice which is presented as scientific, but which does not adhere to a valid scientific methodology, lacks supporting evidence or plausibility, cannot be reliably tested, or otherwise lacks scientific status"

Which ID fits exactly, "because it generates no testable hypotheses, and that’s because it refuses to specify, even vaguely, the capabilities or motivations of life’s designer." from http://www.today.ucla.edu/portal/ut/050927voices_pseudoscience.aspx. Stating the life was designed cannot be tested, and does not fit in any scientific methodology.

Or from merriam-webster "a system of theories, assumptions, and methods erroneously regarded as scientific" (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pseudoscience).

"Intelligent design was formulated in the 1990s..." from britannica.com (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/1081911/intelligent-design)

Irreducitly Complex is the central theme in Intelligent Design, which besides being proved untrue is stated in Misplaced Pages's own article as:

"Irreducible complexity (IC) is a nonscientific argument by proponents of intelligent design that certain biological systems are too complex to have evolved from simpler, or "less complete" predecessors, through natural selection acting upon a series of advantageous naturally-occurring, chance mutations." (http://en.wikipedia.org/Irreducible_complexity)

Are these the kind of cites you are referring to? Or to copy the source that the irreducible complexity ariticle cites:

Forrest, Barbara (May,2007) (PDF). Understanding the Intelligent Design Creationist Movement: Its True Nature and Goals. A Position Paper from the Center for Inquiry, Office of Public Policy. http://www.centerforinquiry.net/uploads/attachments/intelligent-design.pdf Washington, D.C.: Center for Inquiry, Inc.. http://www.centerforinquiry.net/uploads/attachments/intelligent-design.pdf. Retrieved 2007-08-22. .

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.67.83.100 (talk) 05:56, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Hi, first a few tips. Please remember to sign your posts on talk pages by typing ~~~~ at the end of the post. SineBot doesn't always get to the posts in time to sign them for you, and it makes it easier to know where one post ends and one starts.

Second, I have removed the majority of one set of text you copied and pasted above. Normally, it is not permitted to remove someone else's text from a talk page that isn't their own, but in the case of copyright issues, it is. The particular one I removed was removed because it was the bulk of the copyrighted content from the source you cited.

Give me a sec and I will formulate a response to see if I can help you along with this. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI /_CNTRB 06:10, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

OK, on to some notes:

• You cant use Misplaced Pages as a citation. You must use a secondary reliable source for claims/statements of the nature you wish to add to the article. Click the link in this paragraph for an explanation about primary, secondary and tertiary reliable sources.
• This article is about the Cristian Right, so while your proposed addition may be entirely valid, it may not be appropriate in this article except as a "footnote" (not a literal one, but a figurative one, ie: a mention) in this article.
• You may wish to view the Intelligent Design article on Misplaced Pages for suitable references for the premises you wish to insert into this article
• You probably need to ensure that you balance your view with the proper weight for an article that is not about intelligent design - otherwise the article becomes about intelligent design.
• You cannot write such an inclusion in a way where the article becomes an attack page against the subject of the article. That can be a tough one to overcome, hence my earlier suggestion on reading The Five Pillars and related links there to get an understanding on that.
• The article is not about dismissing the claims of the Christian Right; it's about explaining the claims and explaining the criticism. The method of inclusion you used dismisses each section that should be devoted to explaining the Christian Right's beliefs.

Hope that helps get you started. One other note... this article is often in contention (hence it being on my watchlist even though it is not a topic I am particularly interested in). Because of that, the best way to add content is to start dialog here (like you did - again, thank you for that) and come to a consensus with the other editors who work on this article. I am sure that others will show up in the next day or two to provide suggestions and possibly more guidance or even counterpoints. Remember, Misplaced Pages is not about the truth - it's about verifiability, including (due to that) the ability to present opposing views (right or wrong) without biasing them with one's own beliefs. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI /_CNTRB 06:19, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

There are many things that cannot be proven scientifically. You can't prove that you had lunch today by science! You have to look at the historical data. Jay72091 (talk) 1:44, 27 March 2012 CST

Strange paragraph

The two sentences of this paragraph seem to contradict each other: "The Christian Right also support economic conservative policies such as tax cuts and social conservative policies such as child tax credits. It supports the idea that the government should interfere with the natural operations of the marketplace or the workplace as little as possible." Wolfview (talk) 03:47, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Maybe take off the second sentence, since it is uncited anyway.Jaque Hammer (talk) 22:38, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Erase this article

It is clearly not neutral and Im not sure why Dixiecrats are emphasized in this. They were not "right" and they were not soley Christian so it is pointless to emphasize such a thing in an article of the "Christian Right". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dunnbrian9 (talk • contribs) 03:33, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

This article does not make sense.

"Right is a movement that has been difficult to define due to the heterogeneity of the movement." And yet there are numerous assumptions made throughout the article. This doesnt add up. Dunnbrian9 (talk) 03:35, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

It would appear to be a 'I cannot define it but I know it when I see it' thing. Conceptually, it would appear to be the juxtaposition of the (closely-related) phenomena of Christian religious chauvinism, social conservatism and right-wing authoritarianism. Hrafn_Stalk(P) 04:25, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

This article is nothing but propaganda

It should be modified or deleted.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.240.199.188 (talk • contribs) 17:19, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

If you think the article should be deleted, you may of course place it on WP:AFD - but I suggest you attempt to discuss your concerns here first and try to understand why this article exists. If you have suggestions to improve it, you may make them here. Please remember to familiarize yourself with Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines so as not to waste your fellow editors' time. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 17:25, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Disputed Neutrality Part 2

In order not to be biased, it needs to be clarified that Christian Rightist does not include all Christians AND Rightists and their values.Maklaver (talk) 03:07, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Please remember to start a new section. I've moved this conversation into a new section. New comments go after old ones, unless in direct response to someone else.

The comments you added were a commonly used attack phrase against the Christian Right, and were not cited to anyone. What you provided did not clarify such (which, btw, the article already clarifies in multiple places) - it instead directly stated that those in the Christian Right are neither Christian, nor right. You added "The words Christian and Right are not inclusive of each other, in that all Christians are not Rightist and all Rightists are not Christian, as the combined words would suggest. The Christian Right is neither Christian nor Right in the broad sense, although it shares some of the values of both." - that can easily be seen as a POV based attack, and is against numerous policies and guidelines. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | /_CN 03:26, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Image removal

Hi all. This article says:

Because it does not believe in the separation of church and state, the Christian Right supports the presence of religious institutions within government. It also supports the presence and activities of religion in the public sphere. It supports the reduction of restrictions on government funding for religious charities and schools. However, some politically conservative churches refuse government funding because of their restrictions regarding acceptance of homosexuality and other issues. Others endorse President Bush's faith-based initiatives and accept funding.

Here we have a photograph of a bumper sticker asking people to "support faith-based missle defense systems" which is almost an exact quote from the article. I do think this article needs some sources, not removal of this image. Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:14, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

In case you weren't aware, there is no such thing as a faith-based missle (sic) defense system. It is a hoax. This is an encyclopedia: not a joke. WP:FILE states: "Images must be relevant to the article that they appear in and be significantly and directly related to the article's topic" (emph. mine). Nothing could be more trivial and irrelevant than this bumper sticker. – Lionel 04:08, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Lionelt, sorry, no I didn't know it was a joke. No hoax site I can find lists it. I didn't even know whether or not you were kidding until I found it in a book. -SusanLesch (talk) 05:01, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

The bumper sticker would be better in an article on the Christian left, if it's saying (as it seems to to me) that prayer is a better defense against nuclear war than anti-missile systems. BigJim707 (talk) 15:56, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. It seems more an attack on the Christian Right than anything. ROBERTMFROMLI | /_CN 22:57, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Groups

I think the opening sentence could be a little more clear, if the expression "Christian right" includes both individual voters as well as organized groups. BigJim707 (talk) 15:56, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Tory party at prayer

I propose that this article be moved to the a specific American name, as its meaning outside the USA is just too imprecise.

This would remove the problem that the article has at the moment with the introduction. Articles are meant to be a about things not words. The current introduction is about a term so it ought to be moved onto Wiktionary.

When I say imprecise for example what does Christian right mean in the United Kingdom? As it is under the banned of Conservatism presumably it means the Church of England otherwise known as the Tory party at prayer.

In Northern Ireland what does the Christina right mean? In the Republic of Ireland what does it mean? What does it mean in Scotland? On thing for sure is that if it had a meaning in those countries it would not be the same meaning.

So as an initial suggestion I propose to move this article to: Christian organisations that support right wing politics in the United States -- PBS (talk) 02:10, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

I partly agree with PBS: it's an American term and the short "other countries" section is not needed. There is no need to change the title, because the term is exclusively American in usage. For example, as Rogger says "in a Christian Germany a unified Christian Right was impossible." Geiko Müller-Fahrenholz (America's battle for God: a European Christian looks at civil religion 2007 - Page xviii ) says there is nothing quite like it in Europe. Curtis says the Christian right "is a phenomenon that is very hard for Europeans to understand." Rjensen (talk) 02:21, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

I revised the Other Countries section and hope that meets the objections. Rjensen (talk) 03:46, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

It starts to address the issue but not really.

Does right mean to the right politically, or right as in correct? It is ambiguous.

It does not being to touch on the theological issues that are part of right and left in the church (if such terms are meaningful) for example was John Fry (regicide) on the right or the left of the religious divide? Were the Presbyterian to the right or the left in the English Civil War? Where do the Swiss members of the Réveil fit into this terminology? It seems to me that this is a very narrow article and the title should reflect this. -- PBS (talk) 06:57, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Race Section

This section should be completely overhauled. It consists of accusations of racism against members of the Christian Right and contains only one perspective.67.248.31.193 (talk) 19:23, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Views, Eduation, Evolution

This seems like a contentious article, so I don't want to just wade in and start editing.... but withing the paragraph noted the following sentence:

"Many scientists, including evolutionary biologists do not believe there are weaknesses in evolutionary theory, and evolution theory is overwhelmingly supported by biologists and those in related fields in America." Is unfounded based on the supplied reference (which appears to me to be satire). I feel it should be removed or edited. Icomeau (talk) 07:24, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. Proceed... – Lionel 02:14, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Terminology

The terms Christian right and religious right are often used interchangeably, although the terms are not synonymous. Religious right includes Christians, Muslims and Orthodox Jews. For example, they cooperate in national and international projects through the World Congress of Families and United Nations NGO gatherings (Butler). Christian right, by contrast, refers only to conservative Christians, which can include those who are accepting of cooperation with other faiths and those who are not.

• Butler, Jennifer S. 2006. Born Again: The Christian right Globalized. University of Michigan Press; London: Pluto Press.

This opinion piece "Jerry Falwell lives ... in Poland The Poles are now investigating whether the Teletubbies are gay as US religious-right style politics spreads through Europe." in The Guardian in 2007 by Michelle Goldberg states that the World Congress of Families "World Congress of Families, an international gathering that brought stars of the American Christian right together with leading Polish politicians, Vatican officials and sundry other crusaders from all over the US, Europe, Latin America and Africa." No mention of "Muslims and Orthodox Jews".

It seems to me that the whole paragraph needs more citations and qualification of in the U.S. -- PBS (talk) 08:15, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Bob Jones University

No source has been provided to connect the case to the Christian right. The content violates WP:COATRACK. Instaurare (talk) 00:10, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

the statement is now sourced. The case greatly influenced the Christian right & as therefore closely related to this article. Rjensen (talk) 01:06, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

That source is better, but now it's WP:UNDUE. A sentence or two in a single book does not make this anywhere close to important enough for a timeline.. Instaurare (talk) 02:52, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Yet every individual anti-gay state amendment is significant? The event is widely recognized as an instrumental event in the beginning of the political movement (, ) and should be restored, with some of the other cruft removed. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:15, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Restored per Rjensen's reasoning. — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 03:50, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

It may be helpful for those of us not as well-versed in this area to explain in the article why this court case is pertinent to the article subject. It may be obvious to some, or even most, but I'm not seeing the connection right now. Thanks, 72Dino (talk) 04:29, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

I looked at the links provided by User:Roscelese, and that information helped make the connection. Those citations, maybe with a note or quote, should be in the article to help readers understand why a court case about interracial dating helped start the movement, i.e., as a backlash to government involvement in a religious university (which appears to be the reasoning put forward in the citations). 72Dino (talk) 04:57, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

The content as Artifex has placed it is still undue; the content in the article is longer than the source itself! Instaurare (talk) 00:57, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Also, Roscelese, your first source is not reliable because it is an opinion, and the second source is simply a rehashing of the opinion. Instaurare (talk) 01:03, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Let's trim this

Can anybody else see the fatal issues with this paragraph?

Criticism
It is sometimes debated whether Jesus Christ would be considered left or right within modern politics. Some claim that Jesus' concern with the poor and feeding the hungry, among other things, are attributes of the modern day left wing. While the dialogue of Jesus has some of the same talking points as the modern left, the right considers these subjects equally important but have different opinions as to the propriety of government involvement in such things as caring for the poor. The Christian right faces criticism for the politicization of the teachings of Jesus by labeling him as a conservative.

1. Shermer, Michael (2010-07-21). "Was Jesus a Conservative or a Liberal? - Michael Shermer - Skeptic". True/Slant. Retrieved 2011-12-26.

Let me count the ways...

• Weasel Words and unsupported attribution ('sometimes debated', 'some claim')
• Not related, or only tangentially related, to the subject of the article.
• Original research
• Contains cliches ('talking points', 'faces criticism')
• Attribution via synonym ('labeling', 'considers', 'have different opinions')
• And the only source for the entire paragraph is an opinion piece (the URL even has 'slant' in it, for gorshsakes!)

The Criticism section stands on its own quite nicely - this preface paragraph is not needed and doesn't work. Belchfire (talk) 18:35, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

If our goal was to find some pretext for removing any mention of the idea that Jesus is claimed to be a conservative by the Christian right, then the above would be useful. Instead, our goal is to improve the article, which means looking for better sourcing. I'd suggest the latter, so let's consider:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/herman-cain-says-jesus-was-a-perfect-conservative-who-was-condemned-by-a-liberal-court/

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/are-jesus-christs-views-liberal-or-conservative/

http://www.alan.com/2011/10/17/herman-cain-liberals-killed-conservative-jesus/

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/368914/december-16-2010/jesus-is-a-liberal-democrat

http://www.npr.org/2012/04/16/150568478/christian-conservatives-poverty-not-government-business

Given these, how would you improve that paragraph? Still-24-45-42-125 (talk) 19:12, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

My first answer is that I would improve the article by removing the paragraph that doesn't fit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Belchfire (talk • contribs) 19:35, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Start by finding better sources. Herman Cain is just a single example and he doesn't speak for an entire generic movement that encompasses a big chunk of the American public. Steven Colbert is a comedy act. Liberaland is just Alan Colmes' personal opinion blog - completely unusable here for reasons I've already given. The npr piece is possibly suitable, depending on how it's used.

But before you spend your time looking for decent sources, ask yourself why the paragraph belongs at all. How is a hypothetical discussion of who Jesus Christ would vote for relevant to "Criticism of the Christian Right"? Even IF we could establish that (and we can't), you'll still be faced with the problem of relating it to the rest of article. Good luck with that.

Then there are all of the POV and style issues I pointed out above. Really, the whole paragraph needs to be scrapped. It's not Misplaced Pages content, it's just somebody's political cruft. Belchfire (talk) 19:34, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Your descriptions of these sources are, to be quite frank, entirely inaccurate. Did you actually look at them? Still-24-45-42-125 (talk) 19:37, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

I did. If you have different views, why don't you expound on them or explain why you disagree? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Belchfire (talk • contribs) 19:45, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Look, I don't want to call you a liar, but it's obvious that you didn't. For example, the Colbert video is itself an example of liberal criticism over right-wing Christianity trying to claim Jesus as a conservative and it contains a snippet of Bill O'Reilly claiming Jesus. Sure, it's a funny bit, but that doesn't stop it from being a reliable source. Still-24-45-42-125 (talk) 20:00, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Colbert is satire. His material fails WP:RS ab initio. Belchfire (talk) 20:17, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

I'd appreciate it if you would quote where in the policy satire is identified as unacceptable. Still-24-45-42-125 (talk) 20:24, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

It's self-evident. If you disagree, maybe you should start the Dispute Resolution process, or perhaps start a discussion on the Reliable Sources Noticeboard. That could be epic - "Is Steven Colbert a reliable source on the political leanings of Jesus Christ". Yeah. Or you could chill for a little while and wait for other editors to chime in here. Belchfire (talk) 20:38, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, obviously it's not self-evident, so if you can't point at where the rule supports your claim, I'm going to have to disregard your claim as self-evidently unsupported. Still-24-45-42-125 (talk) 21:04, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion. But you'll still need consensus with other editors, since this is just you and I going back-and-forth. Or you could "escalate" and pursue a ruling on Colbert as a RS. Your call. :-) Belchfire (talk) 21:10, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Or, in simpler words, I called your bluff and you flinched. The rules do not say what you want them to say, so there's no point pretending.

Speaking of pretense, you do realize that the issue isn't whether Colbert is an authority on Jesus but whether he's an example of a liberal critic of the Christian right's claims about Jesus' political views. Still-24-45-42-125 (talk) 21:15, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Waiting for other opinions and consensus. That's all it is. Be patient. Belchfire (talk) 21:34, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

The whole "What would Jesus do?" theme is wildly speculative and tangential to the point of being UNDUE. The sourcing doesn't approach anything near scholarly. All in all, not encyclopedic.– Lionel 08:06, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for sharing your unsupported opinion, but the Cain articles alone are enough to refute your claim. Still-24-45-42-125 (talk) 08:17, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Days have passed without any further comment, so I've reinserted, added Cain's cite. Still-24-45-42-125 (talk) 04:03, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

I love the idea of this section. It's interesting and important information. I haven't gotten down to the nitty gritty of the exact section included and it's sources. The NPR source alone is enough for me to think that we should include this section in here. In fact, I'm surprised we don't have an entire article on The politics of Jesus. There's even a book on the subject (extending beyond conservative and liberal politics. I wouldn't put the section directly under criticism though. Instead, I'd create a new sub-section "Political ideology of Jesus" (or something along that line). If a Politics of Jesus article is created, that can be linked using {{Main}}. Ryan Vesey 04:28, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm not opposed to breaking it out a bit. Still-24-45-42-125 (talk) 04:54, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm quite sure that most original research seems interesting and important to somebody, but it's still original research. If you can overcome that difficulty, knock yourselves out, guys. Belchfire-TALK 05:27, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Given the number of citations, I'm having trouble understanding where you're getting the idea that any of this is original research. Still-24-45-42-125 (talk) 05:33, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

I've given this some thought and concluded that WP:OR is a ridiculous claim. If anything, the notion that we should ask what political affiliation Jesus would have had is nearly as cliche as the WWJD bracelets. I personally don't understand it, but then again, I'm not Christian, so I don't have to. Still-24-45-42-125 (talk) 09:06, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Removal of the Republican Party

This change seems completely at odds with the lead, which clearly identifies the American Republican Party as being Christian right. I suggest that the link be restored. Any disagreement or other comments? I'm StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 01:20, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Strange, not even the editor who originally removed it disagrees. Guess it goes back in. I'm StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 11:22, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Nope. And 10 hours is not enough to assert "consensus" by lack of objection. The Repuvblican party is not a religious organization, has members of all sorts of religions and atheists as members, and yi=our POV oushing on multiple articles is getting well past tiresome even in silly season. Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:37, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Exactly. StillStanding apparently thinks all conservatives are alike and untrustworthy. (Actually, to be precise, I don't know what he thinks. He writes as if all conservatives are alike and untrustworthy.) — Arthur Rubin (talk) 11:53, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

(ec)This is actually closer than I first thought. But it appears to just fail WP:CAT. A cat named category:Conservative Republicans would work better. Look at it this way, it would be the same as adding category:Democrat Party to category:Pro-abortion movement. I don't know what he thinks either--but please for gosh sakes noone ask him.– Sir Lionel, EG 12:02, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Take a look at the lead, second paragraph, second sentence:

The Christian right is strongest in the South, where it replaced the core of the Republican Party.

This seems sufficient to include that link the the Republican Party at the bottom of the article. If you disagree, please feel free to explain. However, comments that are about me instead of the article are counterproductive. I'm StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 11:59, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for your input. I'm going to go ahead and restore this link, as there doesn't seem to be a good reason for its removal, and the lead directly supports its inclusion. I'm StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 05:50, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

The Republican Party is not a religious political organization. To imply it is is flatly wrong. It's no different from the Democratic Party where they are not a religious organization either. This follows right along the idea of separation of Church and State. ViriiK (talk) 05:56, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Very disappointed Still that you choose to be disruptive. Against overwhelming opposition you revert anyway. As I posted before this fails WP:CAT. – Sir Lionel, EG 06:02, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Obviously, it's not disruptive to revert after two days without a plausible reason not to. Just as obviously, you are being uncivil and rather disruptive. That's ok; an RfC will clear this up. I'm StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 06:21, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

By all means. It was in the wrong section anyways and you didn't even read the heading. "Movements outside the United States". I didn't know that the Republican Party was established and conducted outside the United States? Nor did I know that the Republican Party was started by a bunch of Christians and not abolitionists. Thank you Still for helping me learn this lesson! ViriiK (talk) 06:24, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Help me out here: What country is the Christian Liberty Party in? I'm StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 21:14, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Nobody answered my question, so I'm going to give the answer. It turns out that our "international" list already contains an American party. This means two things:

1. It needs to be outdented one level, so that it's not listed as non-American.
2. We need to include the major Christian right party in America.

Now, if you have a reason stronger than a false invocation of consensus, I'd like to hear it. I'm StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 05:11, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Why did you add the Republican party? Arzel (talk) 05:14, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Did you read the article? Did you read any of the discussion above? The lead contains:

The Christian right is strongest in the South, where it replaced the core of the Republican Party.

There you have it. Now, are you going to offer some reason why we shouldn't list it? I'm StillStanding (24/7) (talk)

Here's a reason for not including it: because the claim isn't supported by a preponderance of RS.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 12:40, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

That's flatly untrue. Try again. I'm StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 00:09, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

For anyone with doubts, check out these citations. I'm StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 00:12, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

All of those sources are opinion pieces, failing policy on presenting opinion on fact. Further, the second, fourth, and fifth ones never link 'Christian right' to the GOP and the 'World Socialist Web Site', run by a Trotskyist (ie. Marxist) organization and presenting a far-left (even from an international POV) point of views, is hardly a reliable, neutral source for the political affiliations of political parties. Opinion sources are not fact, nor should they be presented as such. Toa Nidhiki05 00:37, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't know how nicely I can say this, but your summary is entirely inaccurate. Just because you disagree with an article does not make it an opinion piece. To remind you, our article lead identifies the core of the GOP as the Christian right, so all of these citations are in addition to the ones supporting our lead. As such, what you said is not only false but irrelevant. I'm StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 05:35, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Toa is correct. None of the 5 references above is both published by a reliable source and is not an opinion column. I admit that more comments should be excised from the article than just the ones added by StillStanding, as there doesn't appear to be a source supporting the statement in the lead, either, but I'm not up to it at the moment. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 07:40, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Let's start with God's Own Party: The Making of the Christian Right. Published in 2010, it's recent enough to be relevant but not so new as to have no feedback. It's a 400 page hardcover from Oxford University Press, with positive reviews from historians. Large sections are available on Google Book Search, enough to show that it supports the contention that the Republican Party represents the Christian right in America, often in as many words. I'm going to suggest that it's a sufficient citation to restore the lead to its former contents. I'm StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 09:39, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

It seems a reliable reference, unlike the ones you listed previously. I don't think it supports the statements as (previously) written, but it should support something similar. I suggest you wait for someone else to include it, especially since you've had 3 reverts today. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 10:04, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

What's stopping you? I'm StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 10:26, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

So, while I wait for the technicalities of revert counts to go away so I can do what we agreed to, I'm going to take advantage of this time to give anyone who objects a chance to explain in advance. I'm StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 02:58, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Who is we? ViriiK (talk) 03:24, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

I would also like to know if you are stating that the Republican Party deploys a litmus test for all those who "register" as a Republican even vote for Republican to be a Christian? What about those who are Jews, Muslims, Jain, whatever? We're talking about a group that is likely to support Republican candidates but due to Separation of Church and State, 'they cannot endorse candidates' otherwise they compromise their religious listing. However they can endorse or oppose political issues which is a different spectrum such as those of marriage, abortion, whatever. ViriiK (talk) 03:32, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but do you have anything that's relevant to this issue? I'm StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 04:44, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Do you? Now, the Republican Party is not a Christian organization by any means whatsoever. To say it is is basically OR on your part regardless of whatever crap you want to bring out to "prove" your point. Their party platform does not advocate a religious platform on behalf of Christianity. In fact, the party platform says this We pledge to respect the religious beliefs and rights of conscience of all Americans and to safeguard the independence of their institutions from government. ViriiK (talk) 05:23, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

I think you know that Arthur Rubin is an insane stickler for sourcing. Nobody I've met on Misplaced Pages is as strict as he is. Despite this, he agrees that the source I found supports the effective restoration of the deleted part of the lead.

As for the two American parties in the list, the right answer is to outdent it one so that it's global as opposed to non-American. I'm StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 05:31, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Doesn't answer my question. Where in the Republican Party makes it a "Christian" organization? I used the Party Platform to disprove your point. Especially when you got Eric Cantor, a Jew, in a significant position. Same for Rubio, Ryan, etc which they're Catholics and those are not closely tied with the "Christian Right" since evangelicals are hugely composed of it. Santorum is an outlier due to his extreme positions that even the Pope Benedict does not take positions on. That Christian group you pointed to me was obviously a Christian group disregarding the Separation of Church and State which you can see here vs There is a stark difference between the two. One advocates a complete Christian platform whereas the other respects the freedom of religion of ALL AMERICANS. But of course. Let me prepare your automatic statement for you anyways since I know what your asinine response will be. "Your opinion is disregarded." ViriiK (talk) 05:36, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but if you can't remain civil, I won't spend any more time discussing this with you. Goodbye. I'm StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 05:47, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I've been civil the entire time here. The problem is you're disregarding people's discussions here constantly and keep wanting to inject your own BS which you know is false. As usual, you go trying to find something, anything to make it stick and then found ONLY 1 book which anyone can write in order to make a guilty by association connection here. Now, tell me. Where on the GOP's website does it say that they are a Christian organization? You can't find it so you need a book to try and make it stick. Now, if you want to cry about how I'm being uncivil, I don't care anymore. I will oppose your inclusion since A) it's in the wrong section and I already removed the other party also on the same reasoning B) it's 100% false and goes against the party platform of the Republican Party. Of course, you will disregard that party platform as usual. Another interesting tidbit. "However, some minor political parties have formed as vehicles for Christian Right activists:" Did you even read that in the first place? As usual, no, you didn't. Even in the beginning, the Republican Party was not formed as a platform to PUSH Christian Values but rather as an abolitionist movement. I could always assume that you will interpret that Republicans in the first place believed that all men should be free according to God. However that's only because of the influence of Judeo-Christian beliefs. Now the Christian Right attempts to formulate the policy in either parties anywhere in the United States on certain issues like abortion. The Republican Party isn't so "united" on the state level since it always varies on a state by state basis however on the Federal level, politicians as usual will do their thing as usual and play "favorites". Reid has the Sierra Club for example. ViriiK (talk) 05:51, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

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