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Philosophy: Religion / Eastern B‑class Mid‑importance

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Seeing one's nature?

This is how it is translated in Jack Maguire's Essential Buddhism. Agree/disagree? 1000Faces, Revision as of 01:05, 19 March 2007

Restoration to previous version

3/11/08: I have restored this to a previous version of the article. Reasons being, the previous edits removed pertinent information including references and sources without adding any new information to make the removal of such information worth doing. AS an original editor of this article one of the issues that came up was the primary use of Rinzai definitions for the article. It was later edited to add SoTo definitions as well as a broader scope. Then further defined to be less divisive and more informative (thank you 70.57.58.222 ). This seems to be the best all around definition that we can all agree on. It includes all of our definitions from our various traditions. If anyone feels left out, by all means feel free to add. Please post changes though in the discussion page. Adding is preferable to removing. There is much that could be said about this but removing sources is not appreciated. Thanks. -Suchawato —Preceding unsigned comment added by Suchawato Mare (talk • contribs) 10:27, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

First paragraph

The first paragraph says Trying to find the "I," the subject, through introspection leads to the realisation that this "I" is completely dependent on the process of perception, the associated thought/feeling complex, and the memories tied to them. Kensho is the direct experiencing of that which is Unborn, Undying, Uncreated, Unchanging; The Eternal Flow/Flux. One knows, with the whole of one's being, that one was not, is not, and forever will not ever be separate from the whole of the Universe.

There's a big enough conceptual gap between those sections to make the latter a non-sequitur. If someone could bridge that gap it would be useful. 78.151.155.197 (talk) 18:04, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I'll step up to the challenge. Give me a few hours, I'll provide a new article that is fully referenced with multiple in-line citations. (Mind meal (talk) 18:47, 29 March 2008 (UTC))

Reverted?

The editing by Suchawato Mare at 11 september 2012 is, to my opinion, not an improvement:

• Parts of the article have been moved to the lead. This makes the lead less clear.
• the nuance of "translated as enlightenment" is replaced by "enlightenment". This is misleading; "enlightenment" has several meanings, which are being used interchangeably in the west, making it a diffised (and misused) conecpt).
• "Enlightenment experience" is a modern translation c.q interpretation. It originates with D.T. Suzuki, and has become a main ingredient of a modern discourse on "enlightenment", as described in Traditional Zen Narrative. See Sharf, Robert H. (1995-B), "Buddhist Modernism and the Rhetoric of Meditative Experience" (PDF), NUMEN, vol.42 (1995) {{citation}}: Check date values in: |year= (help)CS1 maint: year (link). This issue can't be ignored or bypassed.
• The Victor Hori-quite has been removed. Victor Hori has been a Zen-monk, living in a Rinzai-monastery for years, and he is an outstanding scholar of Zen. The removing of this quote is a removing of nuance.
• The links to sudden insight and Traditional Zen Narrative have been removed. Sudden insight is a central concept of the tradition, which is deconstructed by recent academic researc, especialli John McRae, but also Bernard Faure. Removing this information changes the article to a classic Zen-story, not a encyclopedy-article.
• The article had a logical order, which has been removed by this edit by Suchawato Mare: intro, various aspects of kensho, training toward and after kensho. This logical order was replaced by training - one sapect of kensho - training.

Joshua Jonathan (talk) 06:52, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Restoring 2008-info

In 2008 Suchawato Mare rewrote the article, from to , removing a lot of nuanced and detailed info. I've integrated this info into the present version. Joshua Jonathan (talk) 07:46, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Edited, and reverted, and undid, reversion

-Suchawato Mare — Preceding unsigned comment added by Suchawato Mare (talk • contribs) 18:52, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

I am one of the original authors of this article. I have been offline for a few years do to rl issues taking precedence. Watching the changes that have taken place on this article is worrisome.

While some of the changes have indeed added improvements, and increased depth and understanding, a great many have led to a explanation that would be confusing, rather than straightforward to to the average reader and mis-conveys what a kensho actually is.

Some of the sources added as references are three generations out of date. They were made from a scholarly approach to japanese and chinese scriptures, and were largely the earliest translations available to western Zen students. Many were made by people who were not actually Buddhists, and/or people who had not experienced a kensho experience first hand.

A good example of this is referring to the Existance/Time/Flow (as Dogen put it) or the Cosmic Buddha/ Buddha nature as "nothingness" or "emptiness" or "suchness/ "thusness", etc".

As one one western Zen Master jokingly put it "how much muchness is in suchness?"

These were poor translations of Japanese and Chinese words to begin with, and we fortunately now have had three generations of actual western Zen Monks and Lay practitioners who have had the ability to describe Spiritual experiences such as Kensho from first hand experience.

Continuing to use out of date translations and texts and misleading terms used from those early translations simply leads to the misleading and confusing the reader as to what these experiences actually are.

As one Zen Master once said in a critique of some of these terms, the problem with calling it "Emptiness" or "Nothingness" is that they imply nihilism.

It says to the Reader that having a Kensho experience means that one finds that the universe is essentially empty and nothing, and devoid of meaning.

In actuality, nothing could be further from the truth. As Zen Master Jiyu Kennet once put it: "It is the fullest, 'nothingness' you will ever know".

It is for this reason that Modern western Zen Masters have all but dropped the use or referral to these older early western Zen translations and terms. They simply are out of date, and they weren't even accurate at the time they were printed.

I don't have time to upload complete quotes at the moment, but I will here soon, along with references to the effect.

The choice to do a major edit was not made lightly, I'm aware it may offend some people, and am also aware of the hard work many people have put in since my and others original work, however, that notwithstanding, the results since then were an article that was more confusing to the reader, not less.

A kensho, is a rather straight forward experience.

Readers deserve a straightforward and accurate answer as best we are able to deliver as to what one is, and what the term means and stands for, short of the person actually experiencing it for themselves.

The current edit, is not perfect, I'll admit.

It certainly needs more work.

And, at the same time, we would do well to remember all the hard work people have done to translate Buddhist texts and terms into accurate english, and not revert to old, outdated and misleading terminology or be overly scholarly and speaking less from actual experience, and thus misleading the reader.

A kensho is not a theoretical or hypothetical experience, it's one we actually experience as Zen trainees.

While volumes can (and have) been written on the subject of Zen Spiritual experience, it would do well to remember that the purpose of this article is to explain what the term "kensho" means.

Not to get overly cerebral about this.

It's a rather simple and basic concept.

There are two extremes we would go to that would be unhelpful in editing an article.

On one extreme, is the extreme of not enough information, and thus not really saying much to the reader about what something actually is.

The other extreme, is adding too much information, and thereby bogging the reader down in too much information, and thereby the essence of what the subject is is lost in the mud of extra data.

Either extreme is something we wish to avoid.

Like much in Buddhism, a middle path, between the opposites is what we wish to seek here.

Suchawato Mare (talk) Sat, September 15'th, 2012/2555 BE (PST)

 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Suchawato Mare (talk • contribs) 18:50, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

Summary of "worries"

Suchawato Mare, if I understand you well, you've got three problem with my edits:

• The definition of "kensho" is unclear;
• Sources are outdated;
• The article is too scholarly.

Ad1: The article provides a clear, sourced definition, with additional information.

Ad2: Which sources are outdated?

Ad3: I can understand you find the article to scholarly, yet too provide "clear definitions" reliable sources are necessary. Scholars are quote good at this. Personal accounts are considered to be primary sources, and to be avoided were possible.

Joshua Jonathan (talk) 08:09, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Problems with edit-summary and explanation

These are the problems I've got with Suchawato Mare's edit summary and explanation:

• Edit summary: "Undid, the undo, I'm sorry but we need to keep the definition of this clear. The previous revisions have tended more toward a scholarly approach. There are three generations of Western Zen practitioners who have exp. this and can speak from 1st hand exp."

• No explanation is provided on what 'a clear definition' is;
• Scholarly approach: Misplaced Pages uses secunday and tertiary sources, not personal opinions;
• "Three generations" etc: Misplaced Pages uses secunday and tertiary sources, not personal experience. Who are those "three generations", where are the sources?

• Explanation:
  • None of my points have been answered;
  • No reference whatsoever has been given in the above explanation;
  • "I am one of the original authors of this article" - This is not relevant. Any-one can edit Misplaced Pages.
  • Emptiness/suchness:
    • What exactly is "confusing"?
    • Which sources are three generations old?
    • Which "Modern western Zen Masters" have "all but dropped the use or referral" to which older "early western Zen translations and terms" according to which source?
  • "be overly scholarly and speaking less from actual experience, and thus misleading the reader" - That's a tough claim! Debunking schlarship, calling critical research "misleading", is rhetorical. Substantiate the claim that scholarship is misleading. Take into account that, for example, Victor Sogen Hori and Stuart Lachs are long-time Zen-practitioners. Take also into account that researchers like John McRae, Bernard Faure and Steven Heine are highly acclaimed scholars.

There is ample opportunity to discuss the contents of this article. It should be obvious that your edits are contested, and need sources and references. Joshua Jonathan (talk) 19:48, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

Existance/Time/Flow - Cosmic Buddha/Buddha nature

Quote

You mean this quote? From 1990?

...a blissful realization where a person's inner nature, the originally pure mind, is directly known as an illuminating emptiness, a thusness which is dynamic and immanent in the world.(Harvey 1990)

If I understand you well, this is your problem with the term "emptiness":

"As one Zen Master once said in a critique of some of these terms, the problem with calling it "Emptiness" or "Nothingness" is that they imply nihilism.
It says to the Reader that having a Kensho experience means that one finds that the universe is essentially empty and nothing, and devoid of meaning."

There is a clear link from "emptiness" to sunyata, which explains that "emptiness" is not a mere vacuum. Maybe three generations ago sunyata could be misunderstood as "nihilism", but there is sufficient knowledge available to gain a clear comprehension of the term sunyata. Including the Misplaced Pages-article. Knowledge provided by scholars, by the way.

And if this quote is problematic, why didn't you remove it?

Joshua Jonathan (talk) 15:34, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Dogen translation

And is this one of the 'modern translations' you're hinting at?

Unfortunately there have been many muddles, especially in the West, as a result of an indiscriminate proliferation of terms used for the indefinable UNBORN, UNDYING, UNCREATED, UNCHANGING, without their being directly connected up to what the terms ‘Buddha’, ‘It’ and the others above and throughout this book refer to. Some scholars have been so afraid to try and give any definition whatsoever that the whole fabric of what Buddhism is teaching becomes unravelled. One must understand that one must not be afraid of words and one must not become a slave to them. All of the terms above are used to describe IT and can help us to acquire the kaleidoscopic mind that can allow us to know IT, in every sense of the word ‘know’, at all times, thus, with the above understanding of their meaning, the proliferation of terms for IT in this book is very important. Because of a common misconception of the doctrine of anatta, the doctrine of no permanent, separate self, the doctrines of karmic consequence and that of rebirth often have been muddled badly; however, if it is understood that, at the very deepest level, there is no self that does the deed nor one that feels the fruit because there is no separate self when one is with the UNBORN, UNDYING, UNCREATED, UNCHANGING, then the muddle is much easier to unravel and we can put rebirth and karmic consequence in their proper perspective.

It's from Jiyu-Kennett's translation of the Denkoroku, published in 1993 and republished in 2001 by the Shastey Abbey, apparently the congregation you belong to. I don't think this can count as a reliable source; it's intention is to teach, not to provide a historical context to these teachings:

• "This translation was, originally, not meant for anything other than private publication since I felt that non-monastic readers ran the risk of losing the exquisite underlying Truth that runs, like a jade thread through a golden needle, throughout the book".
• "From the point of view of understanding Buddhism, however, his most important work, by far, is the Denkároku, The Record of the Transmission of the Light".

The phrase "UNBORN, UNDYING, UNCREATED, UNCHANGING" comes from the Sutta Pitaka. It's use is not restricted to Jiyu-Kennett, but it's not a common phrase in Zen.

"Existance/Time/Flow" is Jiyu-Kennett's translation of Dogen's "Uji". The usually translation seems to be "time-being", or "being-time".

"Eternal Flow/Flux", which has also been featured before in the article, comes from Greek philosophy, Panta rhei, "everything flows".

Clearly the "new translations" you're hinting at are those by Jiyu-Kennett. Dogen is intensively studied; see alone thezensite, to get an impression, and Heine's books on Dogen. At least four English translations are availabale for the Shōbōgenzō, including Gudo Nishijima's, a Zen-master (a Shike, not an Osho). Another acclaimed translator is Shohaku Okumura, a Japanese Osho teaching in the USA, who studied Zen Buddhism at Komazawa University in Tokyo. If you state that the translations you prefer are the best, and the others are outdated, you've got a very serious task to show that they are better.

Joshua Jonathan (talk) 04:33, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Restoration#2

See also Misplaced Pages:Consensus

I've restored again the more extensive version of the article. Simply copy-paste an older version of an article, without specifically ansewering the previous stated objections, is not the way to deal with a difference of opinion. To my opinion, the removal of clear, well-sourced info that provides additional insight into the topic, is not the way to edit an article or to provide encyclopedic information. Joshua Jonathan (talk) 08:09, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Lead

I've changed back the lead to the shorter version, for the following reasons:

• "Seeing one's nature" is the lietral translation.
• The nuance of "translated as enlightenment" was replaced by "enlightenment". This is misleading; "enlightenment" has several meanings, which are being used interchangeably in the west, making it a diffised (and misused) concept).
• "Kenshō is a term that refers to enlightenment experiences" is not a definition, but a tautology. 'Kensho' is usually translated as 'enlightenment', so if we back-translate the sentence says ""Kenshō is a term that refers to kensho experiences".
• Filling in the other words which are also usually translated as 'enlightenment', the sentence says "Kenshō is a term that refers to kensho/bodhi/prajna/satori/buddhahood experiences". It's clear that kensho has a specific meaning, and is not an exact synonym tot he other words.
• The link for enlightenment led to Enlightenment (concept). This has been repaired to Enlightenment in Buddhism.
• "Enlightenment experience" is a modern translation c.q interpretation. It originates with D.T. Suzuki, and has become a main ingredient of a modern discourse on "enlightenment", as described in Traditional Zen Narrative. See Sharf, Robert H. (1995-B), "Buddhist Modernism and the Rhetoric of Meditative Experience" (PDF), NUMEN, vol.42 (1995) {{citation}}: Check date values in: |year= (help)CS1 maint: year (link). The same issue is at stake in Neo-Vedanta; see Michael Comans (1993), The Question of the Importance of Samadhi in Modern and Classical Advaita Vedanta. In: Philosophy East and West Vol. 43, No. 1 (Jan. 1993), pp. 19-38. This issue can't be ignored or bypassed.

Joshua Jonathan (talk) 10:04, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Meaning of Kensho

I've restored this section, for the following reasons:

• The emptiness-quote is from Victor Sogen Hori, a long-time Zen-practitioner and an accomplished scholar, who trained for years in a Japanese monastery.
• The "How do you kensho this?"-quote, aslo from Hori, has been restored. It gives a fine nuance to the meaning of kensho, which is broader and more down-to-earth than "enlightenment".
• The "blank state of mind"-quote, also from Hori, has been restored, beacuse it makes very clear that insight, not samadhi, is what kensho is about.

Joshua Jonathan (talk) 10:04, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Sudden insight

I've restored the "Sudden insight-section, for the following reasons:

• "Sudden enlightenment" is a central notion in the history of Zen; see Chán#Shenhui and Huineng, Chán#Sudden and gradual enlightenment, and Subitism. See also John Mcrae, Seeing through Zen, Bernard Faure, The rhetorics of immediacy, and Morton schlutter, How Zen ebcame Zen.
• Zen has got a strong narrative, Zen#Traditional Zen Narrative (TZN), which is still influential, yet which is not a historical account, but a fictious account. To understand Zen and it's history, knowledge of this narrative is essentail. This has also been acknowledged by teachers as John Ismael Ford and John Dai Loori.

Joshua Jonathan (talk) 10:04, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Denkoroku

The Denkoroku is a good example of this Traditional Narrative; see also Faure, Bernard (2000), Visions of Power. Imaging Medieval Japanese Buddhism, Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press. It can't be taken as an historical account; it's literary fiction. This should be mentioned. We're living in 2012; you can't ignore scholarly developments. Joshua Jonathan (talk) 10:04, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Working towards kensho

I've restored the previous section "Working towards kensho", except for the title and the mu-koan subsection, for the following reasons:

• "Towards" is more plain language than is "prior"
• I removed the mu-koan subsection; unclear subsection.
• Rinzai: the Hori-quote is correct; it gives valuable info about the koan-practice.
• Soto: this section gives additional info on the emphasi that Soto lays on shikantaza.

Joshua Jonathan (talk) 11:57, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Additional info

I've added additional information and notes, with sources, including a quote given by Suchawato Mareto at the Talk Page, to clarify several issues in the article. Joshua Jonathan (talk) 08:09, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Discussion please

See also Misplaced Pages:Consensus

This is the third time that I sum up my problems with the recent edits by Suchawato Mare. No substantial reaction has appeard so far, only further editing toward a traditional Zen narrative by removing well-sourced info. I would appreciate it to see a reaction on my remarks. They're neatly listed, so can be taken up one by one. Joshua Jonathan (talk) 10:04, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

• B-Class Buddhism articles
• Mid-importance Buddhism articles
• B-Class Philosophy articles
• Mid-importance Philosophy articles
• B-Class philosophy of religion articles
• Mid-importance philosophy of religion articles
• Philosophy of religion task force articles
• B-Class Eastern philosophy articles
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