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Philosophy: Religion / Eastern B‑class Mid‑importance

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Seeing one's nature?

This is how it is translated in Jack Maguire's Essential Buddhism. Agree/disagree? 1000Faces, Revision as of 01:05, 19 March 2007

Restoration to previous version

3/11/08: I have restored this to a previous version of the article. Reasons being, the previous edits removed pertinent information including references and sources without adding any new information to make the removal of such information worth doing. AS an original editor of this article one of the issues that came up was the primary use of Rinzai definitions for the article. It was later edited to add SoTo definitions as well as a broader scope. Then further defined to be less divisive and more informative (thank you 70.57.58.222 ). This seems to be the best all around definition that we can all agree on. It includes all of our definitions from our various traditions. If anyone feels left out, by all means feel free to add. Please post changes though in the discussion page. Adding is preferable to removing. There is much that could be said about this but removing sources is not appreciated. Thanks. -Suchawato —Preceding unsigned comment added by Suchawato Mare (talk • contribs) 10:27, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

First paragraph

The first paragraph says Trying to find the "I," the subject, through introspection leads to the realisation that this "I" is completely dependent on the process of perception, the associated thought/feeling complex, and the memories tied to them. Kensho is the direct experiencing of that which is Unborn, Undying, Uncreated, Unchanging; The Eternal Flow/Flux. One knows, with the whole of one's being, that one was not, is not, and forever will not ever be separate from the whole of the Universe.

There's a big enough conceptual gap between those sections to make the latter a non-sequitur. If someone could bridge that gap it would be useful. 78.151.155.197 (talk) 18:04, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I'll step up to the challenge. Give me a few hours, I'll provide a new article that is fully referenced with multiple in-line citations. (Mind meal (talk) 18:47, 29 March 2008 (UTC))

Reverted?

The editing by Suchawato Mare at 11 september 2012 is, to my opinion, not an improvement:

• Parts of the article have been moved to the lead. This makes the lead less clear.
• the nuance of "translated as enlightenment" is replaced by "enlightenment". This is misleading; "enlightenment" has several meanings, which are being used interchangeably in the west, making it a diffised (and misused) conecpt).
• "Enlightenment experience" is a modern translation c.q interpretation. It originates with D.T. Suzuki, and has become a main ingredient of a modern discourse on "enlightenment", as described in Traditional Zen Narrative. See Sharf, Robert H. (1995-B), "Buddhist Modernism and the Rhetoric of Meditative Experience" (PDF), NUMEN, vol.42 (1995) {{citation}}: Check date values in: |year= (help)CS1 maint: year (link). This issue can't be ignored or bypassed.
• The Victor Hori-quite has been removed. Victor Hori has been a Zen-monk, living in a Rinzai-monastery for years, and he is an outstanding scholar of Zen. The removing of this quote is a removing of nuance.
• The links to sudden insight and Traditional Zen Narrative have been removed. Sudden insight is a central concept of the tradition, which is deconstructed by recent academic researc, especialli John McRae, but also Bernard Faure. Removing this information changes the article to a classic Zen-story, not a encyclopedy-article.
• The article had a logical order, which has been removed by this edit by Suchawato Mare: intro, various aspects of kensho, training toward and after kensho. This logical order was replaced by training - one sapect of kensho - training.

Joshua Jonathan (talk) 06:52, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Restoring 2008-info

In 2008 Suchawato Mare rewrote the article, from to , removing a lot of nuanced and detailed info. I've integrated this info into the present version. Joshua Jonathan (talk) 07:46, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Edited, and reverted, and undid, reversion

-Suchawato Mare — Preceding unsigned comment added by Suchawato Mare (talk • contribs) 18:52, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

I am one of the original authors of this article. I have been offline for a few years do to rl issues taking precedence. Watching the changes that have taken place on this article is worrisome.

While some of the changes have indeed added improvements, and increased depth and understanding, a great many have led to a explanation that would be confusing, rather than straightforward to to the average reader and mis-conveys what a kensho actually is.

Some of the sources added as references are three generations out of date. They were made from a scholarly approach to japanese and chinese scriptures, and were largely the earliest translations available to western Zen students. Many were made by people who were not actually Buddhists, and/or people who had not experienced a kensho experience first hand.

A good example of this is referring to the Existance/Time/Flow (as Dogen put it) or the Cosmic Buddha/ Buddha nature as "nothingness" or "emptiness" or "suchness/ "thusness", etc".

As one one western Zen Master jokingly put it "how much muchness is in suchness?"

These were poor translations of Japanese and Chinese words to begin with, and we fortunately now have had three generations of actual western Zen Monks and Lay practitioners who have had the ability to describe Spiritual experiences such as Kensho from first hand experience.

Continuing to use out of date translations and texts and misleading terms used from those early translations simply leads to the misleading and confusing the reader as to what these experiences actually are.

As one Zen Master once said in a critique of some of these terms, the problem with calling it "Emptiness" or "Nothingness" is that they imply nihilism.

It says to the Reader that having a Kensho experience means that one finds that the universe is essentially empty and nothing, and devoid of meaning.

In actuality, nothing could be further from the truth. As Zen Master Jiyu Kennet once put it: "It is the fullest, 'nothingness' you will ever know".

It is for this reason that Modern western Zen Masters have all but dropped the use or referral to these older early western Zen translations and terms. They simply are out of date, and they weren't even accurate at the time they were printed.

I don't have time to upload complete quotes at the moment, but I will here soon, along with references to the effect.

The choice to do a major edit was not made lightly, I'm aware it may offend some people, and am also aware of the hard work many people have put in since my and others original work, however, that notwithstanding, the results since then were an article that was more confusing to the reader, not less.

A kensho, is a rather straight forward experience.

Readers deserve a straightforward and accurate answer as best we are able to deliver as to what one is, and what the term means and stands for, short of the person actually experiencing it for themselves.

The current edit, is not perfect, I'll admit.

It certainly needs more work.

And, at the same time, we would do well to remember all the hard work people have done to translate Buddhist texts and terms into accurate english, and not revert to old, outdated and misleading terminology or be overly scholarly and speaking less from actual experience, and thus misleading the reader.

A kensho is not a theoretical or hypothetical experience, it's one we actually experience as Zen trainees.

While volumes can (and have) been written on the subject of Zen Spiritual experience, it would do well to remember that the purpose of this article is to explain what the term "kensho" means.

Not to get overly cerebral about this.

It's a rather simple and basic concept.

There are two extremes we would go to that would be unhelpful in editing an article.

On one extreme, is the extreme of not enough information, and thus not really saying much to the reader about what something actually is.

The other extreme, is adding too much information, and thereby bogging the reader down in too much information, and thereby the essence of what the subject is is lost in the mud of extra data.

Either extreme is something we wish to avoid.

Like much in Buddhism, a middle path, between the opposites is what we wish to seek here.

Suchawato Mare (talk) Sat, September 15'th, 2012/2555 BE (PST)

 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Suchawato Mare (talk • contribs) 18:50, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

Summary of "worries"

Suchawato Mare, if I understand you well, you've got three problem with my edits:

• The definition of "kensho" is unclear;
• Sources are outdated;
• The article is too scholarly.

Ad1: The article provides a clear, sourced definition, with additional information.

Ad2: Which sources are outdated?

Ad3: I can understand you find the article to scholarly, yet too provide "clear definitions" reliable sources are necessary. Scholars are quote good at this. Personal accounts are considered to be primary sources, and to be avoided were possible.

Joshua Jonathan (talk) 08:09, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm afraid you don't understand me

But, As it's getting late, and I've already spent most of the evening replying to your posts and challenges in various places, I'll have to clarify this for you when I have further time.Suchawato Mare (talk) 08:56, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Problems with edit-summary and explanation

These are the problems I've got with Suchawato Mare's edit summary and explanation:

• Edit summary: "Undid, the undo, I'm sorry but we need to keep the definition of this clear. The previous revisions have tended more toward a scholarly approach. There are three generations of Western Zen practitioners who have exp. this and can speak from 1st hand exp."

• No explanation is provided on what 'a clear definition' is;
• Scholarly approach: Misplaced Pages uses secunday and tertiary sources, not personal opinions;
• "Three generations" etc: Misplaced Pages uses secunday and tertiary sources, not personal experience. Who are those "three generations", where are the sources?

• Explanation:
  • None of my points have been answered;
  • No reference whatsoever has been given in the above explanation;
  • "I am one of the original authors of this article" - This is not relevant. Any-one can edit Misplaced Pages.
  • Emptiness/suchness:
    • What exactly is "confusing"?
    • Which sources are three generations old?
    • Which "Modern western Zen Masters" have "all but dropped the use or referral" to which older "early western Zen translations and terms" according to which source?
  • "be overly scholarly and speaking less from actual experience, and thus misleading the reader" - That's a tough claim! Debunking schlarship, calling critical research "misleading", is rhetorical. Substantiate the claim that scholarship is misleading. Take into account that, for example, Victor Sogen Hori and Stuart Lachs are long-time Zen-practitioners. Take also into account that researchers like John McRae, Bernard Faure and Steven Heine are highly acclaimed scholars.

There is ample opportunity to discuss the contents of this article. It should be obvious that your edits are contested, and need sources and references. Joshua Jonathan (talk) 19:48, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

Existance/Time/Flow - Cosmic Buddha/Buddha nature

Quote

You mean this quote? From 1990?

...a blissful realization where a person's inner nature, the originally pure mind, is directly known as an illuminating emptiness, a thusness which is dynamic and immanent in the world.(Harvey 1990)

If I understand you well, this is your problem with the term "emptiness":

"As one Zen Master once said in a critique of some of these terms, the problem with calling it "Emptiness" or "Nothingness" is that they imply nihilism.
It says to the Reader that having a Kensho experience means that one finds that the universe is essentially empty and nothing, and devoid of meaning."

There is a clear link from "emptiness" to sunyata, which explains that "emptiness" is not a mere vacuum. Maybe three generations ago sunyata could be misunderstood as "nihilism", but there is sufficient knowledge available to gain a clear comprehension of the term sunyata. Including the Misplaced Pages-article. Knowledge provided by scholars, by the way.

And if this quote is problematic, why didn't you remove it?

Joshua Jonathan (talk) 15:34, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Re: above

Because you don't understand the point of my edits friend.

it's not because there wasn't valid information on the topic, it's because layout design, and reader flow are actually important to reader comprehension of a subject matter.

Very simplistically, there was too much information, in certain areas, when there are entire[REDACTED] articles on those subjects that can be linked to for further information.

It was becoming a general article about Zen Training, rather than specific to the subject of kensho experience.

Such articles already exist.

Some of the information I removed had no reference to the explanation of kensho experience at all.

Some of it was commentary about others commentary.

Some of it was more about Zen or Buddhist or other spiritual Training in general, and less about kensho itself. And some of it may have been fine in and of itself, but was simply not needed in larger context of the entire article.

I can tell you are a "code" type of person, good at programming probably, or would be if you were so inclined.

But there is actually an aesthetic flow to things (people pay good money to layout and graphic designers, and editors, I would know) when presenting material to allow it to be understood that it an actual science.

It's the hardest thing to explain to some intellectual type people, why more information isn't nessicarily a good thing.

Sometimes it just becomes a distraction to understanding the point.

Even in your responses in this talk page, you think it's all about the individual quote, etc.

It's not.

The point is to explain, as best we can what the term kensho means and the experience it implies.

This isn't theoretical. I've actually had one of these as have many people in Zen.

You were posting citations that made the article redundant, because there are other articles on[REDACTED] that cover those subjects much better.

An entire article on Rinzai and Soto for instance.

Going to deep into the subject of each's training methods for instance, basically redundantly posts what could already be read on the Rinzai and Soto page in much further detail.

There is no difference between training for kensho and Zen training in general.

If you'd had a kensho yourself, you would have understood this.

And so the article was redundant.

Kensho is not that complicated a topic, in and of itself.

It was being made out to be more complicated than it actually is, and thus giving a false impression of the subject matter.Suchawato Mare (talk) 09:40, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Response by Joshua Jonathan Personal attacks are not going to help. Whether or not I "had" kensho is not relevant to the discussion; it's about valid sources, and the removal of them. Joshua Jonathan (talk) 10:07, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Dogen translation

And is this one of the 'modern translations' you're hinting at?

Unfortunately there have been many muddles, especially in the West, as a result of an indiscriminate proliferation of terms used for the indefinable UNBORN, UNDYING, UNCREATED, UNCHANGING, without their being directly connected up to what the terms ‘Buddha’, ‘It’ and the others above and throughout this book refer to. Some scholars have been so afraid to try and give any definition whatsoever that the whole fabric of what Buddhism is teaching becomes unravelled. One must understand that one must not be afraid of words and one must not become a slave to them. All of the terms above are used to describe IT and can help us to acquire the kaleidoscopic mind that can allow us to know IT, in every sense of the word ‘know’, at all times, thus, with the above understanding of their meaning, the proliferation of terms for IT in this book is very important. Because of a common misconception of the doctrine of anatta, the doctrine of no permanent, separate self, the doctrines of karmic consequence and that of rebirth often have been muddled badly; however, if it is understood that, at the very deepest level, there is no self that does the deed nor one that feels the fruit because there is no separate self when one is with the UNBORN, UNDYING, UNCREATED, UNCHANGING, then the muddle is much easier to unravel and we can put rebirth and karmic consequence in their proper perspective.

It's from Jiyu-Kennett's translation of the Denkoroku, published in 1993 and republished in 2001 by the Shastey Abbey, apparently the congregation you belong to. I don't think this can count as a reliable source; it's intention is to teach, not to provide a historical context to these teachings:

• "This translation was, originally, not meant for anything other than private publication since I felt that non-monastic readers ran the risk of losing the exquisite underlying Truth that runs, like a jade thread through a golden needle, throughout the book".
• "From the point of view of understanding Buddhism, however, his most important work, by far, is the Denkároku, The Record of the Transmission of the Light".

The phrase "UNBORN, UNDYING, UNCREATED, UNCHANGING" comes from the Sutta Pitaka. It's use is not restricted to Jiyu-Kennett, but it's not a common phrase in Zen.

"Existance/Time/Flow" is Jiyu-Kennett's translation of Dogen's "Uji". The usually translation seems to be "time-being", or "being-time".

"Eternal Flow/Flux", which has also been featured before in the article, comes from Greek philosophy, Panta rhei, "everything flows".

Clearly the "new translations" you're hinting at are those by Jiyu-Kennett. Dogen is intensively studied; see alone thezensite, to get an impression, and Heine's books on Dogen. At least four English translations are availabale for the Shōbōgenzō, including Gudo Nishijima's, a Zen-master (a Shike, not an Osho). Another acclaimed translator is Shohaku Okumura, a Japanese Osho teaching in the USA, who studied Zen Buddhism at Komazawa University in Tokyo. If you state that the translations you prefer are the best, and the others are outdated, you've got a very serious task to show that they are better.

Joshua Jonathan (talk) 04:33, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Regarding the Denkoroku:

Edit added in by Suchawato Mare: Actually, the translation is by Dr. Mark J. Nearman (Rev. Hubert Nearman) who is not only a Dharma Transmitted Zen Master in his own right, but also a distinguished scholar and expert on ancient Chinese and Japanese language and culture, including a background in Noh Drama.

So yes, that is a "new translation".

Or are you going to attempt to call Dr. Nearman's Credentials in to question?

Jiyu-Kennett herself was fluent in reading and writing in Japanese, and was trained in these texts by some of the most respected japanese scholars at the time.

Are you implying her own translations are invalid?

Are you an expert in both ancient and modern Japanese and Chinese languages as well as being an expert in Zen Buddhism to make such an assertion?

Dr. Nearman in particular is uniquely qualified.

If you are asserting thus, you had better provide the credentials to your own qualifications.

Friend your 'primary source' for much of your information about Buddhism seems to be from a website.

Have you actually done any Zen Training?

Have you talked about any of these impressions you have about Zen with an actual Dharma Transmitted Zen Master who is qualified to answer them?

To be a Buddhist one must take refuge in the Buddha, the Dharma AND the Sangha.

Someone who does not take refuge in all three is not a Buddhist. Although, to be fair, you have never claimed that you are.

But if you are not a Buddhist, quite frankly you are not qualified to be talking about Buddhist spiritual experience. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Suchawato Mare (talk • contribs) 09:03, 19 September 2012 (UTC) You are:

• Engages in "disruptive cite-tagging"; adds unjustified {{citation needed}} tags to an article when the content tagged is already sourced, uses such tags to suggest that properly sourced article content is questionable.

You cannot complain that I have not responded to you.Suchawato Mare (talk) 08:50, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Response by Joshua Jonathan Well, that's good that they both are experts. But it does not change the fact that there is lot of research on Dogen. Taking refuge, or "spiritual experience" is not relevant to Misplaced Pages. Joshua Jonathan (talk) 10:10, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Response#2 by Joshua Jonathan Regarding "disruptive cite-tagging": in my latest version of the article, there are two {{citation needed}}-tags:

• "In kenshō one realizes that there are no inherently existing 'things', that the world we experience is empty of inherent existing "things". But according to Houn Jiyu-Kennett, this not a 'vacuum': "It is the fullest, 'nothingness' you will ever know."

You gave this quote on the Talk Page; I've added it to the article, but couldnt't find the source via Google. The only hit it gives, is Misplaced Pages.

• "Oh Buddha, going, going, going on beyond and always going on beyond, always Becoming Buddha. Hail! Hail! Hail!"

You provided a source for this one; that's good. That's why we use those tags.

Joshua Jonathan (talk) 10:49, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Restoration#2

See also Misplaced Pages:Consensus

I've restored again the more extensive version of the article. Simply copy-paste an older version of an article, without specifically ansewering the previous stated objections, is not the way to deal with a difference of opinion. To my opinion, the removal of clear, well-sourced info that provides additional insight into the topic, is not the way to edit an article or to provide encyclopedic information. Joshua Jonathan (talk) 08:09, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Lead

I've changed back the lead to the shorter version, for the following reasons:

• "Seeing one's nature" is the lietral translation.
• The nuance of "translated as enlightenment" was replaced by "enlightenment". This is misleading; "enlightenment" has several meanings, which are being used interchangeably in the west, making it a diffised (and misused) concept).
• "Kenshō is a term that refers to enlightenment experiences" is not a definition, but a tautology. 'Kensho' is usually translated as 'enlightenment', so if we back-translate the sentence says ""Kenshō is a term that refers to kensho experiences".
• Filling in the other words which are also usually translated as 'enlightenment', the sentence says "Kenshō is a term that refers to kensho/bodhi/prajna/satori/buddhahood experiences". It's clear that kensho has a specific meaning, and is not an exact synonym tot he other words.
• The link for enlightenment led to Enlightenment (concept). This has been repaired to Enlightenment in Buddhism.
• "Enlightenment experience" is a modern translation c.q interpretation. It originates with D.T. Suzuki, and has become a main ingredient of a modern discourse on "enlightenment", as described in Traditional Zen Narrative. See Sharf, Robert H. (1995-B), "Buddhist Modernism and the Rhetoric of Meditative Experience" (PDF), NUMEN, vol.42 (1995) {{citation}}: Check date values in: |year= (help)CS1 maint: year (link). The same issue is at stake in Neo-Vedanta; see Michael Comans (1993), The Question of the Importance of Samadhi in Modern and Classical Advaita Vedanta. In: Philosophy East and West Vol. 43, No. 1 (Jan. 1993), pp. 19-38. This issue can't be ignored or bypassed.

Joshua Jonathan (talk) 10:04, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Meaning of Kensho

I've restored this section, for the following reasons:

• The emptiness-quote is from Victor Sogen Hori, a long-time Zen-practitioner and an accomplished scholar, who trained for years in a Japanese monastery.
• The "How do you kensho this?"-quote, aslo from Hori, has been restored. It gives a fine nuance to the meaning of kensho, which is broader and more down-to-earth than "enlightenment".
• The "blank state of mind"-quote, also from Hori, has been restored, beacuse it makes very clear that insight, not samadhi, is what kensho is about.

Joshua Jonathan (talk) 10:04, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Sudden insight

I've restored the "Sudden insight-section, for the following reasons:

• "Sudden enlightenment" is a central notion in the history of Zen; see Chán#Shenhui and Huineng, Chán#Sudden and gradual enlightenment, and Subitism. See also John Mcrae, Seeing through Zen, Bernard Faure, The rhetorics of immediacy, and Morton schlutter, How Zen ebcame Zen.
• Zen has got a strong narrative, Zen#Traditional Zen Narrative (TZN), which is still influential, yet which is not a historical account, but a fictious account. To understand Zen and it's history, knowledge of this narrative is essentail. This has also been acknowledged by teachers as John Ismael Ford and John Dai Loori.

Joshua Jonathan (talk) 10:04, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Denkoroku

The Denkoroku is a good example of this Traditional Narrative; see also Faure, Bernard (2000), Visions of Power. Imaging Medieval Japanese Buddhism, Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press. It can't be taken as an historical account; it's literary fiction. This should be mentioned. We're living in 2012; you can't ignore scholarly developments. Joshua Jonathan (talk) 10:04, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

-Friend, let me see if I understand you correctly. You are asserting that one of the works of one of the greatest and most respected Zen Masters of the Soto School is a work of fiction, and thereby directly implying that Zen Master Keizan is/was a fraud.

This in direct contradiction to his precepts to not defame the three treasures, or to lie.

I'm sorry, but if that's the case, you are not qualified to be working on this article.

You clearly don't even have a basic understanding of Zen, or it's history.

If I may make a suggestion, why don't you simply just call a Zen Center and speak to a Dharma Transmitted Zen teacher of either tradition, and ask them about this subject matter.

Every Dharma Transmitted teacher has to have a kensho as one of the requirements of Transmission.

They can tell you first hand what a kensho is.Suchawato Mare (talk) 08:28, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Response by Joshua Jonathan. The "Transmission of the Lamp"-genre is not a neutral, objective genre. Read John McRae's "Seeing through Zen". A "basic understanding of Zen or it's history" involves more than taking Zen Narratives to be the literal truth. Zen has a history, full of appealing narratives. Take a look at thezensite: critiques of zen to get an impression of up-to-date research on Zen and it's history. Regarding the precepts: read David Chapman, How not to argue on Buddhism, and stick to Misplaced Pages-rules. Joshua Jonathan (talk) 10:13, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Working towards kensho

I've restored the previous section "Working towards kensho", except for the title and the mu-koan subsection, for the following reasons:

• "Towards" is more plain language than is "prior"
• I removed the mu-koan subsection; unclear subsection.
• Rinzai: the Hori-quote is correct; it gives valuable info about the koan-practice.
• Soto: this section gives additional info on the emphasi that Soto lays on shikantaza.

Joshua Jonathan (talk) 11:57, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Additional info

I've added additional information and notes, with sources, including a quote given by Suchawato Mareto at the Talk Page, to clarify several issues in the article. Joshua Jonathan (talk) 08:09, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Discussion please

See also Misplaced Pages:Consensus

This is the third time that I sum up my problems with the recent edits by Suchawato Mare. No substantial reaction has appeard so far, only further editing toward a traditional Zen narrative by removing well-sourced info. I would appreciate it to see a reaction on my remarks. They're neatly listed, so can be taken up one by one. Joshua Jonathan (talk) 10:04, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Response, Friend, I don't know if you've noticed, but it's been barely a week.

Perhaps it's never occurred to you that other people have lives outside of wikipedia. If you're going to be rude, and demanding toward other people's time, that's hardly working towards "consensus"

I will respond as much as I can when I can, and if I have time.

And Just because I have time to make an edit, doesn't mean I have time to talk with you also.

I'm glad you are fortunate enough to have lots of free time on your hands, but perhaps you can practice compassion and patience for others who are not as free with their time as you are.

And, if you are a Zen Buddhist, I would remind you that refraining from anger, and speaking against others is a precept of ours.

-Suchawato Mare — Preceding unsigned comment added by Suchawato Mare (talk • contribs) 08:03, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately I'm not perfect... So the rest of my life will be spend on practice, I'm afraid. Thanks anyway for this wise advice (serious :)). Joshua Jonathan (talk) 08:12, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Administrator's noticeboard notification

A notification has been posted on Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Kensho about the edit-style of Suchawato Mare. Joshua Jonathan (talk) 07:16, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Administrator's noticeboard notification

A notification response has been posted on Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Kensho about the disruptive editing of User Joshua Jonathan. Suchawato Mare

General Response to Joshua Jonathan

Friend, you're not only being rude, you're being impatient and demanding like a petulant child

No one is required to respond to you in a time frame of your choosing.

Everyone else has every right to make edits that they deem appropriate, and indeed, you seem to be confused as to your complaint.

First you complain that I do not cite sources and references, and then when I do, you seem to say that the sources are invalid, and or irrelevant.

An attempt to complain for instance that a quote by a Dharma Transmitted, Zen Master is not valid on this subject is laughable, and seems of desperation on your part.

You attempt to discredit me, and any source I post, seemingly for no other reason than that I was the user who posted it, Yet you have yet to explain what makes you so neutral.

You clearly are quoting sources of your own preference as well.

Zen Master Jiyu-Kennet wrote more about Kensho than any other Western Zen Master that I know of, and yet you say using her writing as a source are invalid, when the subject matter is regarding kensho?

Saying something is meant to be used as a teaching source and therefor not a good reference? Perhaps it doesn't occur to you that The Ten Oxherding Pictures, and Manual of Zen Buddhism were also intended as teaching sources.

Are you suggesting that only Non-Buddhist writings are valid to discuss Buddhist Experiences? Or, D.T. Suzuki, a Dharma Transmitted Zen Teacher, is ok, but P.T.N.H. Jiyu-Kennett, a Dharma Transmitted Zen Teacher is not? That's laughable.

Or perhaps only websites that you like or books that you prefer are valid sources?

'Consensus' does not mean my edits are subject to your will.

I don't agree with all of your sources either, but I actually left some in. There's nothing in the TOU that says you have to agree with my sources for me to post them.

You have posted so many complaints to me here, it makes it impossible in the time I have to respond to them all.

Perhaps you'd like to summarize your complaints down to just 2-3 to make things easier. -Suchawato MareSuchawato Mare (talk) 09:08, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Response by Joshua Jonathan At least we've got some sort of discussion now. I think my main concern is with the mythology surrounding kensho, the idea that kensho is somehow the same as full Buddhahood. I've responded to this above, at "Existance/Time/Flow - Cosmic Buddha/Buddha nature - Quote - Re above"; I'll move the response to here:

Response#2 by Joshua Jonathan You wrote: "There is no difference between training for kensho and Zen training in general. If you'd had a kensho yourself, you would have understood this."

This one is too important to neglect. There is a HUGE difference between "training for kensho" and "Zen training in general". Kensho, insight alone, is not sufficient; there-after follows, at least in Rinzai, "post-satori training", to integrate this insight into daily life, and to remove any "Zen-stink" which may be left. On this both the Rinzai-tradition and the Sanbo Kyodan are very clear. But it's a point which is quite unknown in the west; usually 'initial insight' and Buddhahood are seen as the same, also because the word "enlightenment" is used to translate different Asian words. That's why I put this so outspoken in the article, and why I added sections on pre- and post-satori training. For more information, read:

• Hakuin, Ekaku (2010), Wild Ivy: The Spiritual Autobiography of Zen Master Hakuin, translated by Norman Waddell, Shambhala Publications (primary source on Rinzai-tradition)
• Cleary, Thomas (2010), Translator's introduction. The Undying Lamp of Zen. The Testament of Zen Master Torei, Boston & London: Shambhala (primary source on Rinzai-tradition)
• Mohr, Michel (2000), Emerging from Nonduality. Koan Practice in the Rinzai Tradition since Hakuin. In: steven Heine & Dale S. Wright (eds.)(2000), "The Koan. texts and Contexts in Zen Buddhism", Oxford: Oxford University Press (secundary source on Rinzai-tradition)
• Hori, Victor Sogen (2005-B), The Steps of Koan Practice. In: John Daido Loori,Thomas Yuho Kirchner (eds), Sitting With Koans: Essential Writings on Zen Koan Introspection, Wisdom Publications {{citation}}: Check date values in: |year= (help)CS1 maint: year (link) (secondary source on Rinzai-tradition and Sanbo Kyodan)

It's also why Stuart Lachs is important: he makes very clear that insight, and even "dharma transmission", is not a garantuee for "enlightened behaviour". And that's a huge issue at the moment in western Zen; there have been to many scandals involving supposedly "enlightened teachers". For more information and examples, see:

• Lachs, Stuart (2006), The Zen Master in America: Dressing the Donkey with Bells and Scarves

It's exactly these nuances and concerns which have to be discussed before removing them. They are important, and contain very valuable information. That's also why I deem important an exact definition in the lead, the nuances added by the Victor Hori-quotes, the section on sudden insight, and the extended sections on pre- and post-satori training. As for similarities with other traditions: this may to be too much, but is's also a relativisation of the importance of kensho - or the similar emphasis on it in other traditions. Joshua Jonathan (talk) 11:07, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

A main influence in this "mythology" has been D.T. Suzuki; see

• Sharf, Robert H. (1995-B), "Buddhist Modernism and the Rhetoric of Meditative Experience" (PDF), NUMEN, vol.42 (1995) {{citation}}: Check date values in: |year= (help)CS1 maint: year (link)
• Borup, Jorn (Year unknown), Zen and the Art of inverting Orientalism: religious studies and genealogical networks {{citation}}: Check date values in: |year= (help)CS1 maint: year (link)
• Tweed, Thomas A. (2005), "American Occultism and Japanese Buddhism. Albert J. Edmunds, D. T. Suzuki, and Translocative History" (PDF), Japanese Journal of Religious Studies 32/2: 249–281
• McMahan, David L. (2008), The Making of Buddhist Modernism, Oxford University Press, ISBN 9780195183276

Joshua Jonathan (talk) 18:20, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

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