| Revision as of 23:42, 27 November 2012 editPaul Bedson (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users13,657 edits {{WikiProject Genealogy|class=|importance=}} | Revision as of 19:06, 28 November 2012 edit undoAgricolae (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers31,009 edits again, not genealogyNext edit → | ||
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| == Mixed meanings == | |||
| The article as originally written, appears to combine two distinct usages of this term, as well as material not supported by any of the cited sources. | |||
| ''"Progonoplexia is a concept originated in Ancient Greece to describe a fixation with genealogy, royal descent and family history."'' | |||
| The cited sources for this are Clogg and Stephenson. | |||
| Stephenson says "The Greeks have often been accused of dwelling in the past. Indeed, one critical phillihelene coined the term progonoplexia, or "ancestoritis", to describe this apparent obsession", apparently referring to Clogg whom others explicitly credit with coining the term. This doesn't even mention genealogy, let alone family history or royal descent. Likewise, it is clearly referring to criticisms leveled at modern Greeks, not ancient ones, and it makes it clear that the concept of such an obsession (not fixation, which has psychosexual overtones not associated with genealogy, at least for most genealogists) being called progonoplexia is of modern, not ancient derivation. | |||
| Clogg says "That an obsession with past glories should have developed is, in the circumstances, scarcely surprising. Progonoplexia, or 'ancestoritis', has been characteristic of so much of the country's cultural life and has given rise to the 'language question', the interminable, and at time violent, controversy over the degree to which spoken language of the people should be 'purified' to render it more akin to the supposed ideal of ancient Greek." (The paragraph continues talking about the two forms of the language, the modern spoken form vs the more pure ideal form.) Again, no mention of royalty, no mention of family history and no mention of genealogy. This appears to be referring to an obsession (again, not fixation) of modern Greeks with their cultural ancestors. | |||
| This is the same sort of meaning used by one of the sources in the middle paragraph, the work of Mylonas, described: | |||
| ''Also known as Ancestoritis, Christos Mylonas described it as an "inate belief of a linear descent from the classical past", giving a "precept of national distinction within a highly contested spatial and cultural constellation",'' | |||
| While Mylonas does mention genealogy, it is not the personal genealogy of the beginning of this paragraph in our article - "a gathering of cultural, economic of political centres of Greek tradition-around the spatial and Orthodox stem of the state were proliferated through the synthetic constitution of the national genealogy and historicism." He continues, discussing irredentism and territorial advancement, of race or nation and motherland. This, again, is not genealogy as it is commonly understood, but as a cultural phenomenon of a nation. And again, this is talking about the modern Greeks. | |||
| This meaning is reflected in the last sentence of the article, if by nothing in between: | |||
| "It is similar to Arkhaiolatreia; a concept used to describe "excessive reverance of antiquity". | |||
| In summary then, Progonoplexia is a modern term, coined to reflect the Greek people's obsession with their national cultural heritage, not with their personal genealogy, royal ancestry, or family history. | |||
| This original usage contrasts with the usage of the last source, Zerubavel, who is using it as described. After the quoted text about the internet and ''Who Do You Think You Are?'', he says "Such a deep obsession with ancestry ('progonoplexia')<7> is by no means a distinctly modern fad." Unfortunately, reference 7 is to the same Clogg book that, as we have seen, is relating to the obsessin of the Greeks with their cultural history. It appears, then, that Zerubavel has either misinterpreted the use Clogg was giving the word or has intentionally decided to broaden its meaning. Either way, this is a novel use of the word by Zeruvabel, and is distinct from the meaning given it by Clogg, Stephenson and Mylonas. In light of this, in only referring to Zeruvabel's lone usage, it is giving undue weight to this sense of the word, all the while citing Clogg (the original coiner of the term, it would appear), Stephenson, and Mylonas, who are using the original distinct meaning but giving no indication that their usage is different. (And none of them mention royal descent.) | |||
| Finally, the ''See also'' section links are an arbitrary selection of pages dealing with genealogical topics. That these are representative of Zerabuvel's 'obsession with genealogy' is far from clear, and why these particular pages were chosen is uncertain. | |||
| For these reasons, I will again rewrite the article to reflect the source material. ] (]) 16:45, 28 November 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::The newly added reference reads, "In their perverted and shallow view of the world, in their obsession with Greece's historical heritage (what the famous novelist George Theotokas called "progonoplaxia", or the worship of ancestors), they affected a quaint empty populism. . . ." Again, this is a reference to historical heritage, to culture and nationalism and not to genealogy. ] (]) 19:06, 28 November 2012 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 19:06, 28 November 2012
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Mixed meanings
The article as originally written, appears to combine two distinct usages of this term, as well as material not supported by any of the cited sources.
"Progonoplexia is a concept originated in Ancient Greece to describe a fixation with genealogy, royal descent and family history."
The cited sources for this are Clogg and Stephenson.
Stephenson says "The Greeks have often been accused of dwelling in the past. Indeed, one critical phillihelene coined the term progonoplexia, or "ancestoritis", to describe this apparent obsession", apparently referring to Clogg whom others explicitly credit with coining the term. This doesn't even mention genealogy, let alone family history or royal descent. Likewise, it is clearly referring to criticisms leveled at modern Greeks, not ancient ones, and it makes it clear that the concept of such an obsession (not fixation, which has psychosexual overtones not associated with genealogy, at least for most genealogists) being called progonoplexia is of modern, not ancient derivation.
Clogg says "That an obsession with past glories should have developed is, in the circumstances, scarcely surprising. Progonoplexia, or 'ancestoritis', has been characteristic of so much of the country's cultural life and has given rise to the 'language question', the interminable, and at time violent, controversy over the degree to which spoken language of the people should be 'purified' to render it more akin to the supposed ideal of ancient Greek." (The paragraph continues talking about the two forms of the language, the modern spoken form vs the more pure ideal form.) Again, no mention of royalty, no mention of family history and no mention of genealogy. This appears to be referring to an obsession (again, not fixation) of modern Greeks with their cultural ancestors.
This is the same sort of meaning used by one of the sources in the middle paragraph, the work of Mylonas, described: Also known as Ancestoritis, Christos Mylonas described it as an "inate belief of a linear descent from the classical past", giving a "precept of national distinction within a highly contested spatial and cultural constellation",
While Mylonas does mention genealogy, it is not the personal genealogy of the beginning of this paragraph in our article - "a gathering of cultural, economic of political centres of Greek tradition-around the spatial and Orthodox stem of the state were proliferated through the synthetic constitution of the national genealogy and historicism." He continues, discussing irredentism and territorial advancement, of race or nation and motherland. This, again, is not genealogy as it is commonly understood, but as a cultural phenomenon of a nation. And again, this is talking about the modern Greeks.
This meaning is reflected in the last sentence of the article, if by nothing in between:
"It is similar to Arkhaiolatreia; a concept used to describe "excessive reverance of antiquity".
In summary then, Progonoplexia is a modern term, coined to reflect the Greek people's obsession with their national cultural heritage, not with their personal genealogy, royal ancestry, or family history.
This original usage contrasts with the usage of the last source, Zerubavel, who is using it as described. After the quoted text about the internet and Who Do You Think You Are?, he says "Such a deep obsession with ancestry ('progonoplexia')<7> is by no means a distinctly modern fad." Unfortunately, reference 7 is to the same Clogg book that, as we have seen, is relating to the obsessin of the Greeks with their cultural history. It appears, then, that Zerubavel has either misinterpreted the use Clogg was giving the word or has intentionally decided to broaden its meaning. Either way, this is a novel use of the word by Zeruvabel, and is distinct from the meaning given it by Clogg, Stephenson and Mylonas. In light of this, in only referring to Zeruvabel's lone usage, it is giving undue weight to this sense of the word, all the while citing Clogg (the original coiner of the term, it would appear), Stephenson, and Mylonas, who are using the original distinct meaning but giving no indication that their usage is different. (And none of them mention royal descent.)
Finally, the See also section links are an arbitrary selection of pages dealing with genealogical topics. That these are representative of Zerabuvel's 'obsession with genealogy' is far from clear, and why these particular pages were chosen is uncertain.
For these reasons, I will again rewrite the article to reflect the source material. Agricolae (talk) 16:45, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
- The newly added reference reads, "In their perverted and shallow view of the world, in their obsession with Greece's historical heritage (what the famous novelist George Theotokas called "progonoplaxia", or the worship of ancestors), they affected a quaint empty populism. . . ." Again, this is a reference to historical heritage, to culture and nationalism and not to genealogy. Agricolae (talk) 19:06, 28 November 2012 (UTC)