Misplaced Pages

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The project page associated with this talk page is an official policy on Misplaced Pages. Policies have wide acceptance among editors and are considered a standard for all users to follow. Please review policy editing recommendations before making any substantive change to this page. Always remember to keep cool when editing, and don't panic.

This is not the page to report problems to administrators or request blocks.
	This page is for discussion of the Misplaced Pages:Blocking policy itself. Report incidents such as block evasion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. Report violations of the three-revert rule at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring. Report active, persistent vandals at Misplaced Pages:Administrator intervention against vandalism.

See WP:PROPOSAL for Misplaced Pages's procedural policy on the creation of new guidelines and policies. See how to contribute to Misplaced Pages guidance for recommendations regarding the creation and updating of policy and guideline pages.

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Use of talk page while blocked

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

It seems that we haven't spelled out guidelines on talk page use while blocked. Calvin999 (talk · contribs) has been posting instructions for others to edit on his behalf while he is blocked on his talk page. This flies against the spirit of the blocking policy but I don't believe this has spelled out. One of his buddies has pointed that out, challenging what I believe was proper administrative action by Bwilkins (talk · contribs) in revoking talk page access after blocking and after posting editing instructions. WP:MEAT comes close. I believe this should be added to this policy. Toddst1 (talk) 20:01, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

I say that's a good idea, but I believe that is already covered in WP: MEAT. Robby The Penguin (talk) (contribs) 20:07, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

I can see why we don't want editors to edit by proxy if they are blocked from editing, but to say "you can only use the talk page for unblock requests", as I've seen a dozen times, is flatly mistaken. Stop them from editing, yes, that is the purpose of the block, to prevent modification to mainspace. If they abuse the talk page to make personal attacks or edit by proxy, warn then block, makes sense. But to limit it to unblock requests only is clearly not within the spirit or letter of any policy. Even indef blocked users are still considered a part of the community, per policy, and putting too many restrictions on the talk page would be inconsistent with that policy. This only alienates editors and feeds into more problems and the loss of otherwise good editors. Many of the best editors have a block or two on the logs, after all. As for WP:MEAT, that is for offwiki communications and wouldn't seem to apply. If we simply view this as bypassing the block by editing by proxy, warn, then block talk page access if forced, it seems pretty simple. But adding "editing by proxy" in the policy somewhere for clarity is worth considering. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 20:49, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Arbcom has allowed arbcom blocked editors to participate in good faith discussions on their talk page, see Nobody Ent 21:10, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! I knew we didn't put onerous restrictions on this, just common sense. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 21:46, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I mean communicating isn't the problem, the specific concern was about advocating proxy editing. Toddst1 (talk) 22:55, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

The user did not suggest an edit, they pointed out a problem. Nobody Ent 23:01, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

That is true, although the intent was obvious. That isn't a fine line, and not defined at all. Now that I think about it, proxy editing isn't banned per se, although common sense would seem to say it would be. I have seen instances where it would be proxy editing and it was tolerated, however. In this case, that isn't why Bwilkins took away his talk page access, however. At least the timing says it was his next edit, which I don't completely understand. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 23:08, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

I consider that common sense is not enough in this kind of actions. As Dennis says, a user gets blocked to protect mainspace, but their user talk page access should be only revoked if such user abuses of it. How could that happen? If the user commits personal attacks, etc. However, we should spell that in the guideline, so when such actions are needed, they could be properly expressed with a rationale, instead of common sense. —Hahc21 23:36, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

And to be clear, I left a msg on Bwilkins talk page, and I have no doubt he acted in good faith based on my previous experience with him, I just don't fully get why the talk page block was needed. I suspect the lack of clarity here is part of the reason. The reason for most talk page blocks are much more obvious than this. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 02:04, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

• Guys, please look at the blocklog - Toddst1 didn't detail Calvin999's block history above, and the context is actually important. On June 22 2012 Toddst1 blocked Calvin999 for violating WP:OWN. He unblocked on Calvin's agreement to abide by 1RR, Calvin broke this and simultaneously displayed the same WP:OWN issues on June 23rd. In this context Calvin999's coordination of edits is further WP:OWN behaviour and in this instance a removal of talk page access is thoroughly appropriate (if it was me I'd have doubled the block length too FWIW).
  WP:PROXYING is irrelevant as that has to do with banned users, WP:MEAT is a grey area unless the behaviour persists. And in the normal run of the mill editors are not prevented from using their talk page for discussions of content or anything else (as long as they are constructive) however where such comments demonstrate the same behaviour that got them blocked (ie incivility, ownership, outing, legal threats etc etc) then revoking talk page access is appropriate and necessary. We don't need to change policy to reflect that as WP:BLOCK already states that "editing of the user's talk page should be disabled only in the case of continued abuse of the talk page" - Calvin999's retention of a "ownership attitude" after being blocked for it constitutes both recidivism and, with his attempt to coordinate edits from his talk page, talk space abuse--Cailil 14:10, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Extrememly well put, Cailil. Toddst1 (talk) 15:51, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

I concur and have struck out my previous comment. I was misled by Bwilkins statement " the ONLY reason you have access to this page is to request unblock." which demonstrates a lack of understanding of current practice and common sense. Nobody Ent 19:03, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

that is most of the problem summed up right there, everyone is being misled. Newbies look at that, and so much else and think WTF is this ? Penyulap ☏ 20:27, 2 Jul 2012 (UTC)

Erm, Nyttend appears to have come to a different conclusion than the direction this discussion is going and has restored talk page access. I've left him/her a note on his/her talk page. Toddst1 (talk) 20:25, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Nyttend was acting in good faith here, and I still think that unblocking was proper considering Bwilkins wasn't around. I have left a message previously on this talk page as well. Keep in mind, Calvin wasn't talk page blocked for making the edit request. That was almost two days before the talk page access was restricted. It was blocked just a couple of minutes after Calvin said "I have to say I don't think it's fair to condone me for trying to help remove WP:OR. Also, it was reverted half an hour after you responded to me BWilikins, and over an hour after I first presented it here, so who's to say that someone didn't see this? Regardless, it's been reverted now." so I have to assume that this statement was the reason for the talk page blocking unless someone can explain how it wasn't. It was literally 4 minutes after this post. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 16:06, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Proxy editing

We can agree or disagree with Bwilkins' good faith action with Calvin (please continue in the above thread) but I'd really like to get some clarity as to if proxy-editing requests to articles in general (or Xfd discussions etc) by a blocked user are OK. My admin spider-sense says it is not within the spirit of the blocking policy. If so, I think we should note that somewhere - likely on this policy page. Toddst1 (talk) 23:30, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

The spirit of a block is to prevent disruption. If a talk page edit is not disrupting Misplaced Pages, it should be fine. Saying "someone please look at this, I think it's OR" should not be a problem. No editor is required to take action; no one is required to read a blocked user's talk page (excepting unblock templates). If I (or any other editor) changes the article then the changing editor is responsible. Nobody Ent 23:50, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

No—that's poking people. Johnuniq (talk) 01:18, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

The more I think about it, the more confusing it gets. Proxy editing, ie: directing the actions of someone, is one thing, but the more I think about it, saying things like this, just pointing out a problem, may not really be proxy editing. This does need a bigger discussion. Hadn't thought about it much until now, and looks like many of us haven't as well, but it needs addressing so we can all act in a similar fashion, for the sake of fairness. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 01:59, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Poking is when I jab my finger in your chest. If I jab my finger into my chest, that's just making a gesture. Nobody Ent 02:25, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

The more I look at the Sockpuppet/Meatpuppet policy, which was invoked above, the less I think it applies to edits that improve the encyclopedia. I think the problem is that some folks are seeing this as Calvin999/Aaron circumventing his block. But he didn't have a loyal slave to do his bidding, he just said asked for people to fix a problem. Additionally, let's imagine he asked a specific editor instead to look at the problem. "Hey Joe, go fix this WP:OR." Even at that point, it would be Editor Joe who deserves scrutiny. Did he act independently or not? Was it such a no-brainer that anyone would have acted the same? Stretching rules so they apply to these extreme cases seems to go against the intent of the rule, which is to protect against BAD edits, not prevent good edits. Suppose I had an army of sock editors, against whom we could find no bad or problematic edits of any kind? Would we commend that person for their wonderful contributions or be so bureaucratic that we would kick them for having done nothing truly wrong? We're supposed to ultimately be an encyclopedia with no firm rules and no bureaucracy, yet sometimes we seek such precise rules and definitions, and other times we want it all loosely defined so we can stretch the definition like this example. How about we just look for what the best outcome is, and focus on that? Be as consistent as possible, but hey, as the old saying goes, "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth." Let's encourage positive contributions, and handle the rest with fairness and dignity. -- Avanu (talk) 02:57, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

But when we block someone from editing, aren't we telling them to step away from the keyboard? That's really the whole point of a block, for the editor to do something different for a while (to the extent that every block is a cool-down block). Ultimately I think it will come down to admin discretion though, and a judgement call on the likely outcome of the blocked editor's requests. If they are making a one-off spotting of vandalism somewhere, fair enough. If they are trying to edit right through their block and show that they have a sufficiently numerous cabal that they can effectively ignore a block because what they want done will be done anyway, then the preventive power of a simple block is nullified (there is no reason for them to change their behaviour) and TPA revocation is a reasonable escalation. It should be reasonable though. If I'm working with someone on GA candidate and get blocked in a totally different area, putting a list of sources for onto my talk page should be OK. Conversely, and IMO contrary to NE above, asking for review of OR problems in an article is a little too involved in the wiki-guts, and I shouldn't be doing that while blocked. And what if I post 6,000 lines of javascript? Franamax (talk) 06:48, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

What are blocks for? A block isn't a ritual; it's an action taken to mitigate some known risk of damage to articles, or some other kind of disruption.

• If somebody gets blocked for serious civility problems and continues to snipe from their talkpage then fine, shut that down too; but if they start having more civil discussions on their talkpage then it may be evidence that the earlier problem is going away. If somebody gets blocked for chronic pov-pushing and then use their talkpage to encourage allies or give them pointers, then shut down the talkpage too; but if they direct their passion into suggesting a neutral and properly-sourced edit on that topic, then the encyclopædia benefits.
• If we prevent any kind of talkpage editing other than unblock requests, the meaning of "indefinite" takes one step closer to "forever", because there is less scope for a blocked editor to to give the community broader confidence that they'll behave better in future.
• I think that proxy editing isn't inherently bad. If it's a bad edit (ie. repeating what the editor was blocked for), that's bad. But if it's a good edit, then it's not bad - reflexively stopping those edits too is a bit like reflexively reverting all edits by a banned user, even ones which the reverter acknowledges as positive - hence reinstating typos or vandalism or whatever.

Judicial metaphors aren't totally helpful, but I think that being allowed to edit your talkpage but nowhere else is like being in an open prison: There's more chance for prisoners to interact with others in a normal way which may ease reintegration into society; but for the subset of prisoners who jump over the low fence and burgle nearby homes, or shank somebody in the canteen, well, those ones can be sent back to some high-security solitary-confinement cell and the ability to use their talkpage is taken away. bobrayner (talk) 11:24, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Nobody Ent, nobody is required to do anything.

I agree with Avanu because this is a matter of giving people a guide to what will keep them out of trouble, what they can do, rather than guessing.

If you tell a toddler what they cannot do, and give them an endless list of dont's you always go wrong because they have only their own ideas to guide them. you need a list of DO's for them to follow, and they then stay on course and enjoy life as they grow. The focus on you can't do anything because some sock did that, so were not even going to tell you what you can do is killing the possibility that anyone can use[REDACTED] with what Avanu describes perfectly as "fairness and dignity" I know BWilkins is not nearly as bad as he seems to the untrained eye, but if he keeps going about the right thing the wrong way, it just means 1 sock blocked takes 10 good editors with it, and the sock recycles to take another 10 good editors with it. In the end, he'll have simply nobody but socks left to play with.

Bobrayner uses the phrase 'Judicial metaphors' which may not be perfect, that is true, but they are a fantastic shortcut to understanding, because they are something people already have an idea about. Calling a talkpage a prison cell, saying people can talk to a lawyer there, or say what they like if they don't get out of hand, and if they do, the warden will get the hose and so forth, and if someone wants to visit them and wants to deliver messages, it's ok so long as the letters are perfectly ok, well it's NOT perfect, but it's a fast shortcut to understanding. If some of this was written down in simple guides, then for example wilkins could say WP:PassingMessagesOverTheWall and that page says your trying to be manipulative, while for andy it's like talking to a lawyer, these ideas aren't perfect, but hey, they would put the fire out in a hurry, rather than people just saying "hey that right there is the epitome of hypocrisy" so with no guides, to what is right, or what is the norms, things get screwed up. Penyulap ☏ 15:58, 2 Jul 2012 (UTC)

While I was blocked for edit warring last December, I requested that an edit that had been in process when I was blocked be completed, because it didn't relate directly to the substance of the edit war, and after I uploaded some of my en images to Commons, I requested that someone add the NowCommons template for me. Edits such as this don't strike me as problematic, obviously. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 21:07, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

What is a block?

I think it is helpful if remember what a block really is, instead of what we think it is. From WP:BLOCK:

• Blocking is the method by which administrators technically prevent users from editing Misplaced Pages. Blocks may be applied to user accounts, to IP addresses, and to ranges of IP addresses, for either a definite or an indefinite time. A blocked user can continue to access Misplaced Pages, but is unable to edit any page, except (in most cases) their own user talk page.

• Blocks are used to prevent damage or disruption to Misplaced Pages, not to punish users.

Blocks are not prison sentences or punishments, they are last ditch efforts to prevent disruption to the encyclopedia, most importantly, main space, the part we all use. We have to remember that blocked users are NOT banned, they are just as much a part of the community as I am now. A block is solely defined as a necessary restriction placed on editing all pages outside their "home" space, temporarily, for the purpose of preventing disruption. That is all. The policy makes it clear that no other restriction is on them. So when do we take away talk page access?

• "Prevent this user from editing their own talk page while blocked", if checked, will prevent the blocked user from editing their own talk page, including requesting unblock. This option is not checked by default, and typically should not be checked; editing of the user's talk page should be disabled only in the case of continued abuse of the talk page. Emphasis in original

If the editor is highly disruptive or in a way that would warrant a strong warning or a block, then obviously it would be acceptable to block access to their talk page for the duration of their block. There must be abuse, which seems to mean continued (multiple or more of the same) actions that would be unacceptable under unblocked circumstances. However, if the act they are doing while blocked, direct or by proxy, is not something you would otherwise issue a warning for, then policy seems to clearly say it is acceptable because no where in the policy is any limitation on use of talk page given. This wasn't obvious to me at first, but the more I read it, the clearer it becomes. Perhaps all of us admins have been a little quick to recommend taking away talk page access, myself included. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 19:44, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

How can anyone be "disruptive" on their talk page, a page that nobody is obliged to read? Malleus Fatuorum 20:40, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

You've got a good point and unless they are doing something that would get them blocked anyways (i.e. making personal attacks etc) behaviour on the talk page probably shouldn't be considered disruptive and shouldn't result in talk page access restrictions. Making repeated unblock requests, or using other templates that cause the talk page to appear somewhere else on Misplaced Pages (i.e. {{help-me}} or edit requests) could also be considered disruptive. Ryan Vesey Review me! 20:45, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

"Disruption" is a word that gets tossed around an awful lot here, but more and more I'm becoming convinced that its meaning here on Misplaced Pages bears no relation to its meaning in any decent dictionary. Except this one. Malleus Fatuorum 20:53, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

I suppose "disturbance or problems which interrupt an event, activity, or process:" OED would be appropriate. If an editors behaviour causes another editor to stop what they are doing and address it, the behaviour is disruptive. If a blocked editor makes repeated unblock requests, reviewing administrators are forced to address those requests, making it disruptive. My personal attacks message is a bit more round-about, and I suppose it wouldn't be necessary to call it disruption by the OED definition; however, it still is a reason for talk page access to be removed. Ryan Vesey Review me! 21:10, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

With all due respect (see the dictionary I linked to above), that's a rather naive interpretation of disruption. For instance, if I edit a page and that "causes" the main editor to stop whatever they were doing to look at the changes I've made, is that disruption? If there's a real problem with repeated unblock requests, then address that problem by changing the way that unblock requests are handled. Malleus Fatuorum 21:20, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Good point, I suppose under my definition, general things like requesting rollback or making edit requests could be considered "disruptive". I don't think that a change is really needed in the way that unblock requests are handled though. The blocking policy states that "There is no limit to the number of unblock requests that a user may issue. However, disruptive use of the unblock template may prompt an administrator to remove the blocked user's ability to edit their talk page" That instance of disruption is clearly referring to the definition I linked to. Care to clarify how you believe unblock requests should be handled? Are you referencing to the prisoners dilemma referred to above? Ryan Vesey Review me! 21:33, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

The prisoner's dilemma is of course one issue, but I was thinking more fundamentally. Why not centralise unblock requests rather than have them on a user's (perhaps unwatched) talk page? For instance, DYK nominations require the automated creation of a template; if unblock requests were handled similarly then it would be relatively easy to choke their number. Malleus Fatuorum 22:34, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

I use the word only because it is the word we use here. My threshold for what is "disruptive" is very different on a user page than it is an article page, which should come as no surprise. This is why I prefer to use the criteria of "if you wouldn't have been warned or blocked for it before you were blocked, then we tolerate it". If the editor is making genuine personal attacks, legal threats or other highly disruptive edits, that is one thing. If they are upset and saying they think the block is unfair or "is bullshit", then no, I'm not inclined to take away talk access. The last talk page access I took away was because the editor was making personal attacks against another editor, which is something I won't tolerate. I had made the block. If she was calling me an "asshat", it wouldn't really bothered me, I expect them to vent a bit. That is the threshold as I see it. And I think that unblock requests ARE centralized, as a category, although it isn't one I watch so the name slips my mind. But they are centralized and anyone can watch them. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 22:53, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Interesting. You obviously never check that page, and I very much doubt that other admins do either, so I suspect that the only reviewers of unblock requests are those admins who already had the talk page on their watch lists. Which doesn't seem like a particularly healthy situation to me. I note as well that when I just looked there were only 12 pages in that category, so this canard of causing disruption by raising multiple unblock requests seems to be just that: bollocks. Malleus Fatuorum 23:07, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

I've just added it as a link on my user page. I think I first saw it on Drmies page. Keep in mind, I'm still new to the bit, there are more things I don't know than I do, and more pages I don't watch than do. But I suspect I will try to peek in from time to time. I have gone there and reviewed maybe 2 or 3 unblocks before, and unblocked at least one. Oh, from my experience at SPI (where there is a lot of blocking going on), having to block talk pages is very, very rare indeed. I've probably done it a few times out of my 186 blocks to date, but I can't claim to be typical, nor are SPI blocks. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 23:17, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Evidence suggestions there at least several admins who monitor the unblock requests -- the first interaction they have on a given user talk page is either accept or declining unblock reviews. Nobody Ent 23:28, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

It's interesting that many admins don't use it. It is listed in the dashboard. Ryan Vesey Review me! 23:34, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

I would think that several in fact do. There aren't that many backlogged there, so someone is watching it. I'm not sure how many or who, however. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 00:09, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

What a curious sub-sub-thread this is. How else did you all think unblock requests get addressed? Some sort of adminly magic, which accompanies our preternaturally good health, facial symmetry and charm? To be fair though, there is also an email address to request unblock. But mostly, requesting unblock via the template puts you in a category that people can watch. How else did you guys think it worked? Franamax (talk) 09:45, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

It's also on IRC, #wikipedia-en-unblock (I think), regularly updated by bot. Not that I ever go on IRC any more! Worm(talk) 09:49, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

I didn't and don't think that unblock requests do work, so your question is meaningless as far as I'm concerned Franamax. Malleus Fatuorum 13:14, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

FWIW, unblock requests are one of the things that shows up at Template:Admin dashboard. Before becoming an arbitrator, I used to use that as an overview of work to be done on a regular basis, even though I did not routinely handle unblock requests. Jclemens (talk) 23:05, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Arbitrary Break2

Just write up a guideline draft that suggests the usual help me sort of thing, here is a fine example of how to edit while you are restricted, it looks great, and is not going to attract puppetry related comments.

(example copied from User talk:AndyTheGrump)

This help request has been answered. If you need more help, you can ask another question on your talk page, contact the responding user(s) directly on their user talk page, or consider visiting the Teahouse.

Could someone please post the response below in the appropriate place (Misplaced Pages:Administrators%27_noticeboard#Block_review:_Sceptre_and_AndyTheGrump):

• Oppose, this attempt to involuntarily 'request an unblock on my behalf'. I have not requested an unblock, have accepted that my behaviour merited a block, and intended to accept the block without appeal. To use an involuntary unblock as 'fairness' to justify unblocking someone else seems to me to be highly questionable - and more so when the block has little time left to run, and this is supposed to 'balance' an unblock for a continuing refusal on Sceptre's part to conform to WP:BLP policy, and to cease using Misplaced Pages as a platform for a campaign to 'regender' Bradley Manning against Manning's own express wishes. Sceptre's continuing IDHT behaviour should be looked at on its own merits. AndyTheGrump talk 11:36, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

 Done ✉→Bwilkins←✎ 11:44, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. AndyTheGrump talk 11:51, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Looks to me like Arcandam didn't want you left out. You've definitely been a great sport about your block, and I'm looking forward to you being able to get back to your normal grumpy routine. -- Avanu talk 14:40, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

you could ask what guideline they followed, or just use it as an example to draft a guide, or as a basis for policy. Penyulap ☏ 02:53, 2 Jul 2012 (UTC)

This is precisely what should be done. We should always accept good-faith requested edits made this way, unless there's some problem with the edit (e.g. can't understand the request, not appropriate for the page in question, etc.) that would cause us to reject the edit if it were made to the page itself by the same editor while unblocked. Think of it as an {{editprotected}} request. In other words, if you wouldn't complain if I made an edit myself, don't object to my using my talk page to aks you to make the same edit while I'm blocked. Blocks are preventative, not punitive, so we should welcome good-faith contributions by blocked people who are following the blocking policy. Nyttend (talk) 19:40, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Could you comment above please in the section talking about TPA? Toddst1 (talk) 20:25, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of blocks

I see a lot of people saying "blocks are preventive not punitive", which is all well and good, without carefully considering just what it is that blocks are seeking to prevent. Distressingly, I see a lot of editors above who are interpreting a block as some sort of minimal speed bump: a trivial inconvenience that a blocked editor is just waiting out, or something that the blocked editor should be able to 'edit around' as much as possible, as long as they aren't directly repeating the actions they took immediately preceding the block. Unfortunately, I think that sort of narrow view misses the point and purpose of a block.

Check out the last 500 blocks placed by Misplaced Pages admins. You'll notice that the vast, vast majority are long-term or permanent blocks of spam usernames, open proxies and TOR nodes, vandalism-only accounts, and sockpuppets of already-banned editors; only a tiny, tiny minority are of 'regular' editors. In contrast, Misplaced Pages has something like ten thousand registered editors who are 'active' (making at least one edit per day) and most of them are never blocked. You'll be lucky to find more than a couple of these 'normal', generally-productive editors blocked in any given day. A block isn't a trivial thing; it isn't a normal thing; it isn't a usual thing. Blocks shouldn't – and generally don't – come down because of minor errors; they arise when an editor engages in behavior that a reasonable person would understand could be damaging to the project and/or the community. A block is placed when an editor's conduct departs far enough from Misplaced Pages's norms that the editor should not continue to edit until the problematic conduct has been addressed. A block isn't 'preventive' in the sense that it aims to prevent a blocked editor from engaging in personal attacks, or legal threats, or BLP violations, or edit warring only for the duration of the block. The purpose of the block is prevent the misconduct long after the block has expired – ideally, forever – by prompting the blocked editor to (re)consider their actions and approach to editing.

Permitting and encouraging blocked editors to edit by proxy, whether in article or project space, badly misses the point of a block. It discourages the sort of reflection that a block might otherwise prompt, and it encourages the community and the blocked editor to incorrectly perceive a block as a minor occurrence or trivial nuisance. With relatively narrow, common-sense exceptions (for example, where the discussion directly addresses the block itself) an editor who is blocked should not be trying to engage in other project work or requesting and encouraging edits by proxy. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 21:16, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

You're living in fantasy land. Malleus Fatuorum 22:29, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Per WP:BLOCKBANDIFF blocked editors are still part of the community. As noted above, ArbCom is letting a blocked editor use his talk page while ArbCom blocked, and many editors (including some with admin privilege) have interacted with WebHamster (currently indef blocked) . This policy page specifically says talk page access should be revoked for abuse, not use. To claim that attempting to positively interacting with a blocked editor is counterproductive does not miss the point -- treating blocking as a metaphoric solitary confinement does. Nobody Ent 23:47, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

If someone's "editing by proxy", that means someone else is doing the edits, right? Specifically, someone else who isn't blocked, and is therefore (for now at least) trusted to make such edits? I don't see a problem - it's that person's responsibility to decide whether to make those edits or not; the encyclopedia benefits if they are good edits, and they can be reverted (and the "proxy" blocked if necessary) if they are bad edits, just as in the case of any other edits that "proxy" might have decided to make. Victor Yus (talk) 06:05, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Well-said, I agree.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 13:22, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

• This is an omnibus reply to all the related threads above: I don't believe any codification or new rules are needed here. Many of our policies are deliberately left somwehat vague to allow for discretion and common sense to be used when interpreting them. If you see an admin who consistently does not display either of those qualities, take it up with them, not the blocking policy. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:02, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Apparently common sense is lacking, much like a Vogon's knack for poetry. We've had a zillion paragraphs of debate here on two points that apparently are already supported by policy.

1. A third party can ask for a review of any block.
2. A user can use their Talk page while blocked for things other than requesting an unblock.

So why the long debate? If a group of assumed-to-be-rational people can't agree on something they already agree on, how can we expect consistency from a specific admin? -- Avanu (talk) 18:17, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Indefinite blocks

Currently the text reads:

"An indefinite block is a block that does not have a definite (or fixed) duration. Indefinite blocks are usually applied when there is significant disruption or threats of disruption, or major breaches of policy."

This used to be the case several years ago, but today the threshold to issue indefinite blocks is a lot lower than that. Count Iblis (talk) 17:59, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

'economy of thought' Penyulap ☏ 18:22, 28 Jul 2012 (UTC)

I would have to agree with Count Iblis. It seems even minor infractions result in indefinate blocks these days. Kumioko (talk) 00:44, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

• It would also seem that the newer the editor, the more likely an indefinite block is, even when the newcomer has a history of good faith contributions. NTox · talk 01:08, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

It may be because the rest of the community is as tired as myself in dealing with disruptive editors. They get blocked, come back and do he same type of edits and result in the departure of good editors when the wear and tear sets in. I have seen good people walk away from Misplaced Pages out of frustration with inaction against disruption, Snail-speed Puppet Investigations that can last 9 or 10 days, etc. History2007 (talk) 15:53, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Only admins may resolve unblock requests

Per ANI discussion I have added the following to the policy, at the end of the Block Reviews section :

"Any user may discuss or comment on block reviews, however only administrators may resolve the review (either declining or unblocking)."

I believe that this accurately captures the AN discussion consensus. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 01:41, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

• Nobody Ent put a little more polish on it, and I tend to agree that the current version reflects consensus. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 02:06, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
  • I support Nobody Ent's polish. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 20:00, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
    • I've added a footnote linking to Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive238#Unblock requests being handled by non-administrators so the discussion that led to this wording can be easily found and viewed. Cunard (talk) 05:36, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Blocked editor's user page

Discussion at the Pump

Currently, the language in the lead of the policy states:

A blocked user can continue to access Misplaced Pages, but is unable to edit any page, except (in most cases) their own user talk page.

I suggest changing the language to:

A blocked user can continue to access Misplaced Pages, but is unable to edit any page (including their own user page), except (in most cases) their own user talk page.

I'm not crazy about two parentheticals in one sentence. I would also prefer to make the change somewhere in the body, but I don't see anywhere to make it as there is no section on the effects of a block. I'm open to other ways of clarifying the issue. And, obviously, some may disagree with me that it even needs clarification. (The initial impetus for my question at the Pump came here.)--Bbb23 (talk) 20:01, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

It's been several days, and no one has commented. So, I'm going to make the change. If anyone reverts, please at least provide your rationale here. Thanks.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:09, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Unrelated question but can they also edit all pages in their userspace, eg. sandboxes, etc., while blocked? – Connormah (talk) 22:52, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

No, a blocked user only has editing ability for their user talk page and nothing else: no articles or subpages or project pages or anything else. The ability to edit one's user talk page exists solely for the ability to request a review of the block, and for no other reason. Editors who abuse that may have that ability removed as well. --Jayron32 02:55, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Well, that might be a little strong. We don't mind blocked users using talk page access to answer questions about copyvios or other serious matters. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:01, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Strange - I seemed to have blocked someone yesterday and it seemed they were still able to edit their sandbox (though I may be imagining things), see User:DSMACGroup & their deleted edits. – Connormah (talk) 03:14, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Nope. The edits to the sandbox were all made before they were blocked. You should probably restore talk page access. The sanbox edits were made between 03:15-03:24 13 September 2012, and the block was issued 03:51 13 September 2012. The user made exactly zero edits to anything between when you first blocked them and when you removed talk page access at 13:47. Have a little serving of fish on the way to restoring their talk page access. --Jayron32 03:20, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Apologies. Not too sure, but my times are totally screwed up - I have those edits being made at 14 something with the block being at 7 something - I will restore talk page access and probably look into my prefs for time settings... – Connormah (talk) 03:24, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I use UTC for all of my Misplaced Pages time settings, and use the gadget in the preferences menu that puts the UTC clock on the top of every Misplaced Pages page, just so that I don't make the exact same mistake you just did. Misplaced Pages doesn't handle it well if you try to do things in your local time zone. --Jayron32 03:32, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

I do have the gadget already, the signatures seem to be in UTC, yet the edit times don't seem to add up..strange... – Connormah (talk) 03:46, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Huh. Seemed I had my local time zone and the UTC gadget, I've fixed that now, hopefully this won't happen again... – Connormah (talk) 03:48, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I had a problem trying to use UTC and local time zones. Before I became an admin, it was annoying. After I became an admin, it drove me bananas, particlarly at ANEW, so I now use UTC on everything. Not fun for my watchlist, but it's tolerable.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:09, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Indef-blocked user status. How long does it last?

What happens when:

• A user is indef-blocked, comes back with several puppets over the next month and they are all indef-blocked.
• The user stays quiet for 6 months or so, and starts again with similar edits.
• A WP:SPI request says the situation is "stale".

What determines "stale"? Is an indef-block in practice for a given period of time and after that the user can freely start again with a new account or two, dance the same dance, add the same outdated references and questionable sources again and again?

It is obviously intended to be indefinite, but is it in practice?

Clarification will be appreciated. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 15:45, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

You are probably talking about Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Lung salad. That case is still waiting for administrator comments. Rather than engaging in a dialog here about the blocking policy, I suggest contacting the admins who previously blocked anyone in this case. The 'stale' comment by the CU only refers to his inability to find any usable checkuser data on the original account. The new apparent socks could still be blocked on behavior. EdJohnston (talk) 15:58, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Your mind reading did work. So do I understand that:

• CU has time limits which reduce its effectiveness after a while?
• If CU does not work, behavior based patterns can be used to suggest a sock puppet identification?

As for contacting the admin, frankly I am too tired of all this to do it now - maybe later. Please see my comment above on this page. The overall effort to deal with disruptive editors is far too high... History2007 (talk) 16:05, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Aren't you an experienced editor (2007)? Some of your questions seem out of place for someone who has been here for a while. Any experienced person should be aware of the limitations of sockpuppet investigations. EdJohnston (talk) 16:43, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

George Bernard Shaw said: Men are wise not in relation to their experience, but in relation to their ability for experience... And yes, I have been here too long... But that situation was resolved. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 16:48, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

You are correct on both points. The usual next question is, "how long do they keep the CU data?", and the answer is "it depends on how irritating the sock is". WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:04, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I think its to be expected that experienced editors don't know about the checkuser limitations. The community seems to have adopted a policy of security through obscurity with regard to the limitations on checkuser data. As a result, those who frequent areas that deal with socks probably have a pretty good idea what the limits are, but many of the rest probably have no idea. Monty₈₄₅ 15:22, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Blocking policy alterations

I am considering making a serious proposal regarding the blocking policy...I've been thinking about this a lot lately and obviously, something has to be done to prevent the blocks/unblocks of registered editors...something that will possibly be adaptable in the software akin to what I worked on when we had semi-protection implemented. At that time, semi-protection was widely panned since we didn't want to be seen as the website not everybody can edit. It was generally revolutionary for its time, the same way a major alteration to the blocking policy/software adjustments might be now. Prior to semi-protection and the development of the vandal bots, the website was literally under seige and it was tough to get article work done. I think the blocking policy is also now something that needs a major overhaul as it simply isn't working, and blocking registered editors just makes for more problems than it solves. I'm still trying to figure out the wording for these adjustments and wondering if I have the time to fight what might be a losing battle and whether something can be done to tweak the block button application. Perhaps a software plug which states that the registered editor has X number of edits and cannot be blocked without consensus. There can be no doubt though that our current set up is broken. Please...before this gets shot down, think a moment about what we can do that might make the blocking policy more realistic and less open to individual interpretation. I really would like to see what others might have to say on this matter.--MONGO 05:57, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

I have just come here thinking the same thing, that there are issues with our blocking policy. I was under the impression that all editors must be warned and given a little time to change before they are blocked (except for legal and death treats). This is my practice even for simple vandalism. Per this though Misplaced Pages:Blocking_policy#Blocking a warning before hand is optional even if the user in question has made tens of thousands of high quality edits and is in good standing within the community.

We spend so much effort trying to attract new editors with variable success. IMO we also really need to make sure we keep the long term editors we have. Long term editors need to be treated at least as good as simple vandals if not better. I propose we change "optional warning" to "It is required to warn a user before blocking them (with the exception of legal or death threats and obvious sock puppetry)" Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 08:18, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

At a minimum such a change would have to take account of blp. If someone, registered or not, goes off the rails and starts posting blp-violating material across multiple pages he needs to be blocked immediately. Tom Harrison 14:41, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

The accuracy of medical content is just as important as blp issues and I still warn all people before considering blocking them. It is fairly simple really. Someone makes a few really bad edits, you warn them and revert the changes, someone makes more bad edits you block them temporarily. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 21:16, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

As the author of WP:NOTNAS, I'm not sure I'd support institutionalizing that advice. Discretion is important, but so is admin accountability. Toddst1 (talk) 15:30, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

This would give some time for accountability and force all admins to think a little before blocking someone. Blocks can seriously hurt the project as they can drive away some excellent volunteers.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 21:18, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)While the same could be said of other block reasons, not all BLP violations are the same. There are BLP violations, there are serious BLP violations, and then there are egregious BLP violations. Minor BLP violations happen all the time, such as when a living persons date of birth is in dispute and there are no, or only unreliable sources being used, such a case deserves at lot of warning/discussion before a block should be on the table, maybe even getting to an edit warring block first. Serious BLP violations occur when someone adds negative information that may well be accurate, but that clearly violates BLP due to a lack of citation, or where the article is more negative then is supported by the sources. Such violations still deserve at least a warning before block. Then there are cases where an editor goes entirely off the rails and starts throwing around totally unsubstantiated libelous statements and really nasty personal attacks aimed at the subject, those are the BLP violations where a block without warning may be appropriate even for a vested contributor. The problem is how to draft a policy that provides a consensus requirement for blocks of experienced editors, but still provides sufficient leeway to deal with ongoing conduct that is really egregious, potentially with legal implications. Monty₈₄₅ 15:37, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

The issue this is attempting to address is the fact that we have users who treat blocking as a "ban hammer" or "block hammer". We need measures to encourage greater though before blocking to decrease the drama fallout that occurs afterwords. I see only a couple good reasons to block someone based on a single edit 1) deleting the main page 2) threatening someones life 3) threatening legal action. All the rest everyone deserves a second chance IMO. A chance to show reason as it is easy to misunderstand a single edit. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 21:28, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

I think at the least, we should mandate that no matter how seasoned an editor is, prior to the block they should always get a notification beforehand. Secondly, any block to be overturned must be done only on consensus via posting at AN/I...but my appraoch is actually more radical than that, as I am leaning towards putting some sort of end to blocking registered editors. I know that sounds off the deep end, but its pretty obvois to me that our current system is definitely broken.--MONGO 01:43, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Edit quality and contribution counts should not be factors in a block decision, unless the block is specifically to prevent low quality edits from being repeated. Behaviour, contribution quantity, and contribution quality are three separate things that need to be considered separately.—Kww(talk) 02:20, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

What I am proposing is simply that established edits get the same warnings as new editors. That their is one standard which is that all people get a warning and a chance to change before being blocked. There are almost no problems that do not deserve this as a minimum. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 07:00, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Standardizations that all get warnings is fine and I generally agree with that proposal, but....its not uncomnon for the editor just warned to then get even more irritated, not surprisingly. I have a lot of faith in most admins, and I'm not trying to single out anything that has happened recently. However, looking from afar at the general trend, there have been an increasing set of blocks that seem to me to have been done with too much zeal. This is an issue I'm still trying to scope out a way to both make the role of the administrator less confrontational, and the end result of controversial blocks less controversial. As I said at the start of this section, there may be a technical manner in which blocks cannot be applied. I've stated in other areas recently that the number and or quality of edits doesn't give anyone the right to violate polices. I have also stated that most usertalk acrimony is best ignored. Still looking at this to see what is going to make for a more practical blocking policy.MONGO 14:55, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Previous blocks are a warning, though. If I see that someone has been blocked for edit-warring before and I'm thinking about blocking him for edit-warring again, I see no value in warning him again. All it does is start a cycle where the editor edit wars up until receiving the warning notice.—Kww(talk) 15:27, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Why don't admins simply protect the page for a short duration...post reminders about editwarring on the page and maybe at AN/I. My goal is to try and put administrators in a position where their actions will create the least pain for all involved.MONGO 15:56, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Because full-protection of a page is a last resort. I'd block a handful of users rather than fully protect a page in nearly all instances. The goal is to allow editors that behave themselves to continue to edit normally and to get editors that are not behaving themselves to either correct their behavior or go away. The only time I would fully protect a page because of an edit war is if the problem is so widespread that I'd be handing out dozens of blocks. To answer the probable next question, yes, most of the blocks I give in such situations are indefinite, and are lifted as soon as the editor agrees to stop participating in the edit war. For a truly well-intentioned editor, the situation is resolved within hours.—Kww(talk) 17:00, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

And I do the exact opposite. Most pages are only edited by a handful of editors. I would fully protect a page to force people to discuss long before banning a handful of editors. IMO this does much less harm to the editor group. One does not need to single anyone out which is impossible without a thorough review of the case. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 19:56, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Well, if an editor is blocked, they aren't going to be hashing out the content dispute on the article talkpage, their going to be posting unblock notices at their own talkpage. I dint like penalizing others and keeping them from editing an article, so its just a thought. All I'm doing right now is seeing what we can do to improve the block policy by starting with feedback here. I don't know if its currently viable to seek out more input or not.MONGO 20:40, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't/can't "ban" anyone. Saying "you can't edit until you agree to stop edit-warring on article x" shouldn't be a major problem. It's generally resolved within hours, and quite painless.—Kww(talk) 21:32, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

It is a major problem. We sometimes lose excellent editors over this. It creates massive drama. People deserve to at least be warned before hand. Anyway will start a RfC. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 21:43, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

I tend to agree with Mongo and Doc James on the temporary full-protection vs. blocking a handful of users question. If it's just one editor who is warring against a consensus of other editors, sure, block them for 3RR. If it's just two warring against each other, and it looks like they're doing it in good faith (trying to address each others' concerns, leaving good edit summaries, using the talk page, not attacking each other), a 24-hour page protection and a warning about edit warring beats blocks any day. If it's 4 or more editors, the minor inconvenience of having a protected page doesn't come near the amount of drama and disruption resulting from so many blocks. ~Adjwilley (talk) 00:19, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Blocked on the whim of a single admin

The following thread had been transferred from Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Editor Retention at the suggestion of Bishonen (below). --Epipelagic (talk) 02:28, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Here is a classic example, fresh off the press, of the current power imbalance that can exist between a dubious admin and a competent content builder. On the one side is arrogance and the sense of being untouchable, and on the other side is the sense of injustice, of being unrecognised, and of hurt. I think this is an important example and cuts to the heart of the editor retention problems.

Long term, experienced editors who have demonstrated overall competence and commitment to content building should never be blocked at the whim of a single admin. Whether blocking is appropriate and on what terms should be decided by a panel of the content builder's peers. Blocking is a useful tool for dealing with vandals and hard core disruptors. It should be used on experienced editors only in exceptional circumstances. Blocking an editor is a deeply humiliating experience, and should never be undertaken lightly, certainly not in the throwaway manner some current admins have. Many editors leave the project after what they perceive is an unjust block.

Over the last few hours there have been a number of these stupid blocks. Some the content developers who were blocked were admins themselves, so the admin system is even biting itself on the arse. As a result, we have lost major content builders, and sorely wounded others.

Here is another example, also fresh off the press, made with no warning on competent content developers, and resulting in the loss of SandyGeorgia.

If these attacks are to continue, they could at least be made a little more workable and benign. Inappropriate blocks made against content developers should be acknowledged by other content developers as wounds that have to be endured by developers. Content developers attacked that way should be marked with awards of honour. Admins will never police themselves, and they are so numerous that they negate any attempts to make them accountable. As a group, they have no will to rationally overhaul the admin system, only to prop up the existing system. The more destructive clowns among admins should be separated from the responsible admins, and treated for what they are by the rest of the community. --Epipelagic (talk) 22:15, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Very interesting reading, and reassuring to see that one is not alone. I've been given a final final warning by an admin who seems happy to endlessly quote policy yet unwilling to discus how the different policies interact. Edwardx (talk) 23:22, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

I was under the impression that it was standard practice to warn editors before blocking them. Does not appear to be done in a number of these cases. Even simple vandals are given this privilege. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 07:22, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Nope. A lot of users are banned with no warning at all and worse...the blocks are a mistake by the admin. There is little to do put suck it up, shut up and scream your head off when the block log is used against you.--Amadscientist (talk) 07:32, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Well that does not sound fair. I could see a few exceptions like "death threats", "legal threats" and "sock puppets" but other than that. Maybe we need to see if we could get consensus around this? Something like "Before blocking a fellow editor one must verify that they have been warned for a similar issue in the recent past" With of course the exceptions above. Otherwise any admin should be able to come along and revert and the banning admin should be warned. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 07:39, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

I think I saw a discussion on this very issue the other day. Can't remember where, but it was about warning before blocking.--Amadscientist (talk) 07:42, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

IMO it should be mandatory. Do you know where one would propose something like this? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 07:46, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

I looked through my Watchlist and the discusion is here but only in regards to civility blocks.--Amadscientist (talk) 08:08, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks and a similar discuss has been begun here Wikipedia_talk:Blocking_policy#Blocking_policy_alterations Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 08:22, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

There was also this editor, apparently topic banned without notification by an admin, after the admin was approached on an obscure thread by another admin. The accosted editor stopped editing for a couple of months. Contrast this to a current disruption issue, where there is a proper RFC/U, but the individual in question is still editing in the topic area. And don't forget the Perth case, where ArbCom appeared to have desysopped an admin without notification that they were being discussed. The solution seems to be that individual editors seem to be getting more and more aggressive in their rhetoric, stopping just short of incivility. (Unless they are truly disruptive, in which case nothing stops them.) This is creating an editing culture that is contentious rather than a collaborative. So what is the answer, an ombudsman? (ombudswoman?) Neotarf (talk) 10:00, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Admin can't topic ban someone unilaterally unless there are discretionary sanctions or special sanctions previously agreed to at WP:AN or WP:ARB. For instance, there are special sanctions at MMA currently, so I could topic ban someone from all MMA articles but I have to warn them first. There are some reasons to block without a warning first, ie: socking, gross BLP/vandalism but the vast majority of times, editors should be warned first. Policy doesn't require this however, and it would be very difficult to force admin to warn first via policy for a number of reasons that might not be obvious at first glance. It is impossible to list all the right times to warn first, for starters.

Admin are just as different from each other as non-admin. There is no cabal and certainly a lot of disagreement (and sometimes, vitriol privately) between them regarding how to deal with blocks. Screaming at admin that are quick on the trigger often backfires and makes them dig in. I'm not sure how we encourage more gentle handling by them, except leading by example. More importantly, there are a number of techniques to prevent a block, but it is a lot of work and not every admin is willing or patient enough to learn and use the techniques. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 14:21, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Well the process can be abused in a number of ways. For example a single admin can impose an editing restriction. For example an editor can be blocked and then unblocked on condition that he avoid a certain area - effectively a topic ban. An admin can use unreasonably wide interpretation of a topic ban to achieve their own ends, and people will be reluctant to get involved (if indeed they can be notified by the wronged editor). All these I have seen occur. Rich Farmbrough, 21:29, 1 January 2013 (UTC).

The admin's note on that talk page looked to me like a warning, and the next action from the admin would be a block. The situation seems to have now been contained by a series of comments from several editors, some more congenial than others. And if you look at something like Talk:Men's rights movement, I made one small edit there, to remove what appeared to be vandalism by a drive-by IP, and I got templated by the involved admin and my name placed on a probation list. Reading the probation page, which contains such uninformative and condescending gems as "We actually know when we cross the line; we are all intelligent people", I interpret to mean the admin has broad latitude to define which edits are "bettering the article" and would block me if I edited there again. As a relatively new user with barely a thousand edits, I don't know what to think. I don't see this stuff spelled out in a policy anywhere, or any way to take an inappropriate block off someone's record. This[REDACTED] place seems to have hidden landmines all over the place. One dare not set foot in it without a posse. Neotarf (talk) 22:34, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

This is a notification about the status of an article which clearly stated the admin was finding no fault with your edit. NE Ent 00:22, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, right. That template was dumped on my talk page in the context of the same admin making uncivil and unsupported accusations against me and others during a 45,000-word RFC that is now archived. Also note that a request for an ArbCom judgment was lodged involving that page, and the same admin. I had recommended, along with other editors, that the requested title change be the lower cased "Men's rights" instead of "Men's Rights", per WP:TITLE, and the request for the title change be made via Misplaced Pages:Requested moves instead of RFC. Note the Byzantine wording of the notification, also the fact that some editors are notified and some aren't. Neotarf (talk) 03:45, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

• Many good points are made above, and I urge you to move this discussion to WT:BLOCK, where MONGO has recently started to get the ball rolling on a proposed policy change that would make such blocks as the OP describes a thing of the past. (Header: "Blocking policy alterations".) No sense in spreading the subject over several boards, and proposing changes to the blocking policy — which is what WT:BLOCK does — is more likey to lead to actual concrete change, than letting off steam here at "editor retention" (though that certainly has its uses also, for consciousness raising). Bishonen | talk 02:19, 2 January 2013 (UTC).

RfC: Warning before blocking

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Currently we state "However, note that warnings are not a prerequisite for blocking". I propose we change this to "Warnings are generally required before blocking except in the extreme cases of a) legal or death threats b) obvious sock-puppetry" Blocks should never be taken lightly and have a high risk of seriously harming our community / creating excess drama. Nearly all users should have a chance to change their behavior and a single edit is almost never justification for a block. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 22:02, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Survey

• Support as proposer. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 22:02, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support especially the idea of the anti drama aspect.Thelmadatter (talk) 22:07, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support Editors should not have to work, as they do at present, with a Damocles sword hanging over them, and no warning of when it going to fall. That is a malignant working environment. --Epipelagic (talk) 22:14, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. I might be willing to support a finer-grained proposal ("Blocking for X must be preceded by a warning" or "Blocking users of Type Y must be preceded with a warning"), but this is far too wide an attempt. There are a number of cases I can think of off the top of my head where blocking without any or a full set of warnings is not only a decent idea, but is the current standard. Vandalism raids full of multiple editors piling in to destroy an article at the request of someone else, for example. Accounts with libelous names/edits where their mere existence is problematic. Accounts that immediately set off on sprees of such vicious vandalism that it's clear they have no intention of editing in any other way, such as adding hate speech or death wishes (which are distinct from death threats). Narrow your scope and this would be a proposal worth considering, but with its current scope it would harm admins' ability to mop up serious issues efficiently. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 23:26, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
• Comment The proposal is well-intentioned, but needs refinement. For instance, the "a) legal or death threats, b) obvious sock puppetry" needs to be expanded or at least broadened to include disruption only accounts. So, oppose in its current form, I guess. ~Adjwilley (talk) 23:56, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose, as it makes no provisions for repeat offenders. Blocking without an initial warning for the first block is rarely justifiable, but when someone repeats the behaviour that led to a previous block, there's no need to get locked into a misbehave/warn cycle that can't lead to a block because the editor hasn't been warned for this particular piece of misbehaviour.—Kww(talk) 00:05, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support, there's a requirement for some disincentive to the often reflexive and damaging impetus to block. FiachraByrne (talk) 01:00, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose It's not that hard to not get blocked, nor is it particularly hard to get unblocked once blocked. NE Ent 01:32, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Threaded discussion

• Prefer Unilateral blocks without warning may not exceed 24 hours. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:36, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't think that fixes it either. Accounts that are only being used to vandalize Misplaced Pages are blocked indefinitely. ~Adjwilley (talk) 00:03, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't favor timed blocks for accounts at all. If a named account is blocked it's because of a particular piece of misbehaviour, and the block shouldn't be lifted until there's an assurance that the misbehaviour won't repeat.—Kww(talk) 00:07, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

The effort is to get rid of unilateral blocks without prior warning in nearly all but a few critical situations. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 01:17, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

• If one has been recently previously blocked this counts as being recently previously warned. Would be happy to clarify that this only applies for the "first block".
• If someone threatens the life of another editor IMO they do not need to do it twice before being blocked.
• I think it is most important if this proposal applies to established editors. But in my practice I even give vandals a second chance. Doc James (talk ·contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 01:11, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages requests for comment