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| :::::::None that I can see. But neither does the article. - ] (]) 16:56, 10 March 2013 (UTC) | :::::::None that I can see. But neither does the article. - ] (]) 16:56, 10 March 2013 (UTC) | ||
| ::::::: So, how much are you getting from SNDP to make Thiyya as a sub caste of Ezhava. - ](]) | |||
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WHY SHOULD WE USE THE VULGAR PRONUNCIATION- WHEN THE PROUD TONE EXISTS
The evolution of the name "Ezhavar" was from the word from the place "EEzham". And they were called in the past as " Ezhavar". But it was by the British, " the Malayalam Illiterate People" who were incapable for normal pronunciation that word, started telling it as "Ezhava" instead of "Ezhavar". But it is a vulgar pronunciation of that word, and it is not the responsibility of Ezhavar to vulgarity of their pronunciation. We can see that, we are not calling the cast "Nayar" as " Naya OR Nayas", and we don't call the cast "Pattar" as "Patta OR Pattas ". Means the word "Ezhavar" also should be pronounced in the same manner as "EZHAVAR"instead of pronouncing "Ezhava". If the Government documents are the inspiring support to tell the word like that, what we should do is to change first the Government Usage - what was created by the Malayalam illiterate British, and blindly following monkeys .And now a days we can see that, So many families started using their name as word " Ezhavar" with their name.And so many started naming their new born babies also as the same using the word "Ezhavar". Like.... Sajeesh Ezhavar, Unnikrishnan Ezhavar, ramnarain Ezhavar..etc. In Malayalam, there you can find out a meaning for the word of " Ezhavar". But You can not explain the meaning of the word " Ezhava" / "Ezhavas" using the Malayalam Language.
/* Social and religious divergence */
Unlike other places in India the Caste system in Kerala was very complex and rigid. It is mainly divided in to two groups, the caste hindus or Savarna(Nambudiri and Nair) and Avarna. The higher caste hindus (Nambudiri and Nair) and Syrian Christians treated Ezhavas as untouchables.. A Nair had the right to behead polluting lower castes including Ezhavas immediately..
It will be great if you can read the first reference and page 12 to 14 of the second reference. And I think the matter is very relevant in the context. Dakshinsamudram (talk) 02:19, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
THIYYAR / THIYYA Thiyyar / Thiyya not a subcaste under Ezhava. it has its own identity and it is a caste itself not a subcaste. The culture, tradition even physical appearance, skin colour completely different from Ezhavas. They are Other Backward Communities thats all one thing common among them. Please delete Theyyam, Izhathu mannanar, and also delete the part which referring people from Malabar, they are thiyyas not Ezhavas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.243.18.3 (talk) 02:07, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
Edit request on 10 February 2013
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Tiyyas, Thiyyas and Theeyas in Malabar have to be removed from the article. the said community is a unique and different community and have very little connection with ezhavas. article have to remove all the references regarding the thiyya community. 122.174.195.192 (talk) 18:46, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
- Not done.Please provide a reliable source.--2.219.218.79 (talk) 20:01, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
PLEASE REMOVE ALL REFERENCES ABOUT THIYYA, THIYYAR, THIYA FROM THIS ARTICLE.
This article written for misleading readers, please understand that thiyya is not a sub caste of any caste. Its independent cast and they have their own culture, tradition and history. Its just like Nair, Menon, Nambiar, Ezhava etc. If you look nair[REDACTED] article, they mention about menon caste that doesnt mean menon is sub caste of Nair, You can mention about thiyya in your article but dont mislead people by making thiyya as subcaste This article deceiving readers, written for political gain or something, please remove all above said references immediately.
Izhathu_Mannanars
Izhathu_Mannanars is a Thiyya Dynasty and you have mentioned in your article that he belongs to Ezhava which is wrong, please correct it.
Please Edit this article ASAP
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Thiyya, Thiyyar, Tiya, Thiyya are a different caste in Malabar area of Kerala and the only link with Ezhava is they both belong to Other Backward Communities in Kerala. Please do not mention that Thiyya is a sub caste of Ezhava in the Article, None of your citation links say that Thiyya is a subcaste of Ezhava therefore you need to either remove all the references about Thiyya, Thiyyar, Tiya or Thiya from this article or describe Thiyya caste in detail in the article. Ezhathu Mannanars was not Ezhava Dynasti, Misplaced Pages has got a page for Ezhathu Mannanars and it has got valid reference which says Ezhathu Mannanars a Thiyya Dynasty. Please do not ignore this edit request.Irajeevwiki (talk) 04:08, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
Not done Please give a reliable source to back up your claim. - Camyoung54 talk 14:53, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
- None of your citation reference links showing that Ezhava and Thiyya are same.. They are two different castes thats is why they got two different caste names. You cannot change the history by deceiving[REDACTED] administrators. Misplaced Pages articles should be written in a neutral point of view not for political gain or anything like that. Look up the talk history page and many people from around the world requesting to amend the article and the author is just reluctant to do that.Irajeevwiki (talk) 05:54, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
- Ref 1, Nossiter p 30, says "The major low caste is the Ezhavas (Iravas, Ilhavas), known as Chokons (Chogons) in central Travancore and as Tiyyas (Thiyas, Theeyas), who claim a higher ritual ranking, in Malabar". -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:52, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
- None of your citation reference links showing that Ezhava and Thiyya are same.. They are two different castes thats is why they got two different caste names. You cannot change the history by deceiving[REDACTED] administrators. Misplaced Pages articles should be written in a neutral point of view not for political gain or anything like that. Look up the talk history page and many people from around the world requesting to amend the article and the author is just reluctant to do that.Irajeevwiki (talk) 05:54, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
- Please look this link from Specifically referring Thiyya and Ezhava seperately, from the book we can understand Thiyya caste is distinctive , many books referring thiyya and ezhava same, the reason is they belong to Other Backward Communities in india and people from both castes were doing same jobs in the past like toddy tapping etc and also they both very active in martial arts but those books never say that Thiyya and Ezhava same castes. Thiyya people in malabar look very different from Ezhava people and their worship is completely different from Ezhava, Thiyya people go to Kavu where as Ezhava people more engaged in snake worshipping etc. Misplaced Pages should explain both castes separately. There are many books printed in the past explaining differences between Thiyya and Ezhava. Please understand and edit thoughtfully and remove those lines which explains Thiyya is a subcaste of Ezhava. Snapshot on right from book
Irajeevwiki (talk) 09:17, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
- You really should not upload a scan of a copyrighted book. As far as your contention goes, it is one that has been repeated time and again here. Original research has always been required to make the leap from what a source says (on the rare occasion that one was provided) and what the person citing it claims. You appear to be falling into the same trap, although I'll try to find Kurup online and see if there is anything more to it. I have seen stuff about a campaign outside Misplaced Pages for Thiyya to be considered as a completely separate community from the Ezhava: that is the way of castes, which come and go depending on the whims of fission and division, politics, economics etc. In a sense, castes seem to be made up and disposed of "on the hoof", although I realise that this trivialises the significance for those who are intimately involved.
Until independent reliable academic sources recognise the complete distinction between Ezhava and Thiyya, we have a problem here. Please also note that in the event that such sources are found, we would show both sets of opinions. That is, that some academics consider them to be Ezhava and others consider them to be distinct. - Sitush (talk) 17:36, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
- You really should not upload a scan of a copyrighted book. As far as your contention goes, it is one that has been repeated time and again here. Original research has always been required to make the leap from what a source says (on the rare occasion that one was provided) and what the person citing it claims. You appear to be falling into the same trap, although I'll try to find Kurup online and see if there is anything more to it. I have seen stuff about a campaign outside Misplaced Pages for Thiyya to be considered as a completely separate community from the Ezhava: that is the way of castes, which come and go depending on the whims of fission and division, politics, economics etc. In a sense, castes seem to be made up and disposed of "on the hoof", although I realise that this trivialises the significance for those who are intimately involved.
Edgar Thurstons book clearly mentions the difference between Ezhava and Thiyya .. ( vineeth ) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.96.226.13 (talk) 03:57, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
- Edgar Thurston would likely not have recognised an Ezhava/Thiyya if he met one. He is a hopelessly unreliable source for this sort of stuff. - Sitush (talk) 13:56, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
the writer never said that Thiyya is a sub caste of ezhava in the book. Thiyya is a separate caste from Malabar and ezhava is from travancore. On the same page. :Ref 1, Nossiter p 30, second para explains about the differences of both castes. Majority of the Ezhavas were agricultural labours whereas thiyyar were toddy tappers. Irajeevwiki (talk) 19:24, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
- I have no idea why so many people (or perhaps one person using umpteen identities) have so much trouble reading sources for this Ezhava/Thiyya stuff. Re-read Nossiter again, please. He says - from the very bit that you mention - "The major low caste is the Ezhava (Iravas, Ilhavas), known as Chokons (Chogons) in central Travancore and as Tiyyas (Thiyas, Theeyas), who claim a higher ritual ranking, in Malabar." Later, on the same page, he says "Marriage customs have varied considerably among the Ezhavas. In northern Malabar, the Tiyyas were matrilineal (but patrilocal) ..." and so on. Nossiter is clearly treating these two groups as being the same, although acknowledging that they have regional differences.
Doubtless, it is the regional differences and the possible socio-economic gains to be made that are driving the present-day Thiyya desire to be seen as entirely distinct but until reliable sources say this, there is nothing we can do to change it here. What we need is some decent, neutral stuff discussing any present claims to the difference. ... and I do not mean agitative Thiyya-based sources as I am pretty sure this campaign both on- and off-Misplaced Pages is driven by some ulterior motive. Find someone like Christophe Jaffrelot who specialises in the politics of caste and is an active academic with no axe to grind. - Sitush (talk) 20:22, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
- Sorry ,I repeat my question. . Which reference link says Thiyya is a sub caste of Ezhava. Irajeevwiki (talk) 08:41, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
- None that I can see. But neither does the article. - Sitush (talk) 16:56, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
- So, how much are you getting from SNDP to make Thiyya as a sub caste of Ezhava. - Pnranjith(talk)
- Osella, Filippo and Caroline Osella (2000). Social Mobility in Kerala. Modernity and Identity in Conflict. Pluto Press, London. ISBN 0 7453 1694 8.
- Fuller, C J (1976). The Nayars Today. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0 521 21301 0.
- Kurup, K.K.N. (1988). Modern Kerala : studies in social and agrarian relations (1st ed. ed.). Delhi: Mittal Publications. ISBN 81-7099-094-7.
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