| Revision as of 14:00, 21 March 2013 editSineBot (talk | contribs)Bots2,556,573 editsm Signing comment by 204.101.207.138 - "→Ordination: new section"← Previous edit | Revision as of 14:06, 21 March 2013 edit undo204.101.207.138 (talk) →Links to audio shiurimNext edit → | ||
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| : Also, Yonoson3, in view of the opposition here, and the possibility of your personal interest in the subject, I'd advice you to establish firm consensus ''before'' any such edit you make. ] (]) 06:42, 17 March 2013 (UTC) | : Also, Yonoson3, in view of the opposition here, and the possibility of your personal interest in the subject, I'd advice you to establish firm consensus ''before'' any such edit you make. ] (]) 06:42, 17 March 2013 (UTC) | ||
| ::::Honestly Debresser, the ''only'' ones who object can also be combined into ''only'' one group, i.e. the pro-Chabad (anti-Shach) editors, meaning you and Winchester, all the others are the comments who "speak" (often using language that violates ]) from anonymous IPs (see above) that runs totally counter to ] etc. So '''please''' give Yonoson a break as he works in ] to improve the quality of this article. Thank you, ] (]) 09:16, 19 March 2013 (UTC) | ::::Honestly Debresser, the ''only'' ones who object can also be combined into ''only'' one group, i.e. the pro-Chabad (anti-Shach) editors, meaning you and Winchester, all the others are the comments who "speak" (often using language that violates ]) from anonymous IPs (see above) that runs totally counter to ] etc. So '''please''' give Yonoson a break as he works in ] to improve the quality of this article. Thank you, ] (]) 09:16, 19 March 2013 (UTC) | ||
| Actually there are probably many other people who don't like all the exagerated and false information a few people keep sticking into this article. Like me, they probably don't usually have the time or interest to fight. For the record, I think because of the very controversial nature of the subject here as well as the many obvious attemps to make him look better by followers writing false stories, this article should really be based mostly on newspapers and journalism and NOT on books by his family that try to polish Shachs image after he died. Gershon. | |||
| == Info from another book "In Their Shadow" == | == Info from another book "In Their Shadow" == | ||
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Kuntres Chiddushim Ubiurim al HaRambam Hilchos Na'arah Besula
I recently added this link to the "Bibliography" section:
Kuntres Chiddushim Ubiurim al HaRambam Hilchos Na'arah Besula
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=21194&st=&pgnum=130
It was subsequently removed by 74.8.80.215 (http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Elazar_Shach&diff=528663834&oldid=528663594).
I think it belongs here because it is a significant pamphlet written by Shach himself, and most of it is not published in the Avi Ezri.
What do the other editors think? Yonoson3 (talk) 05:48, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
- If that bibliography is supposed to be complete, then I don't understand why it was removed. If it is supposed to bring only the most important of his works, then this one can be removed. Debresser (talk) 16:33, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
I don't think it should be added as it is just an article in a magazine by the looks of it. If it gets properly published as a separate book then it should go in but not like it is now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.150.29.247 (talk) 05:59, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
- Also, this is such a highly specific subject, that it is not a very notable work. Debresser (talk) 19:04, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
Works
I've removed a lot of the nonsense that Yonoson3 has plastered the page with, true to form. Seek consensus as to whether unverified nonsense some student or other claims to have divined from Shach belongs here BEFORE inserting as per the relevant guidelines.--Winchester2313 (talk) 21:56, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
- These are not "unverified nonsense" that are "divined from Shach". They are accurate transcripts from many of Shach's speeches. For those that don't believe me, here you can read (at least part) of some of them for yourself:
- Machsheves Mussar
- Machsheves Zikainim
- Yonoson3 (talk) 02:48, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
The 'unverified nonsense' referred to your other multiple (and unsourced) edits on the page which violate WP:V and WP:RS. You've already been warned regarding your linkspam and cluttering the page here- Talk:Elazar_Shach/Archive_1#Bookspam, and WP:EL and I would advise you to read and begin complying with the rules. I intend to file an ANI requesting your being banned from editing this page the next time you violate the rules here. It's been long enough.--Winchester2313 (talk) 14:11, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
- Regarding these edits 1 2 3, they are sourced in the following two books:
- Harav Schach: Shehamafteach B'yado by Moshe Horovitz. Keter Publishing House, Jerusalem. 1989.
- Path to Greatness – The Life of Maran Harav Elazar Menachem Man Shach, Vol I: Vaboilnik to Bnei Brak (1899–1953) by Asher Bergman, translated by Yocheved Lavon. Feldheim Publishers
- An that's precisely why I added these two books to the "Further Reading section" Yonoson3 (talk) 00:16, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
- And regarding this edit, all those seforim, are, as I already mentioned, direct accurate transcripts from many of Shach's speeches. Yonoson3 (talk) 00:19, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Your patently false claim of consensus at http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Elazar_Shach/Archive_2#Continued_-_Regarding_quote_from_Mishpacha_magazine_about_Chinuch_Atzmai is typical of your dishonesty when editing here. It seems that no matter how many times Yonoson3 is asked to comply with basic policy here and on his talk page, he is determined to ignore the guidelines and force hagiographic propaganda onto the page. The book "Path to Greatness" by Shach's grandson (Asher Bergman) is a silly hagiography full of hearsay and stupid exaggerations like the claim that "Shach served as honorary president of hundreds of yeshivas....", among other nonsense, and NOT a reliable source. WP:V and WP:EL make clear that the burden is on the contributing editor to make the case for inclusion, something which seems sadly lost on Yonoson3, false claims of consensus notwithstanding. I have removed some of the more egregious violations of WP:COPYVIO and WP:V in an attempt to maintain compliance on the page.--Winchester2313 (talk) 07:08, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
- As mentioned earlier by Jayjg (http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Elazar_Shach/Archive_2#Regarding_R%27_Asher_Bergman%27s_book_%22Path_to_Greatness%22), "Feldheim is a reasonably respected publisher of Judaica. If you believe the book to be unreliable, please raise the issue at WP:RS/N." Yonoson3 (talk) 02:18, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
- And BTW, the quote "Shach served as honorary president of hundreds of yeshivas" is from a different book: "In Their Shadow: Wisdom and Guidance of the Gedolim Volume One: Chazon Ish, Brisker Rav, Rav Shach" Yonoson3 (talk) 02:20, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
- Debresser—you say that there are "too many external links to works of minor importance in this article". Why shouldn't there be ample external links? This being a biography of Shach, why would works on Shach be of minor importance? Bus stop (talk) 21:44, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
- This is an encyclopedic article about Shach, it is not his biography. Nor do articles on Misplaced Pages habitually have a complete list of works of people in the articles, just the most notable. Debresser (talk) 00:05, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
- Wouldn't many sources that are pertinent to Shach be fairly obscure by "encyclopedic" standards? Are they "minor" by dint of being published by companies that only serve the religious Jewish book market? Bus stop (talk) 01:49, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
- Obviously not. But that is not the issue. I shall repeat myself for your sake: 1. This is an encyclopedic article about Shach, it is not his biography. 2. Articles on Misplaced Pages do not habitually have a complete list of works of people in the articles, just the most notable. Debresser (talk) 07:19, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
Debresser, just a reminder, saying things like "I shall repeat myself for your sake" to a user who is asking straightforward questions violates WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF. Try being more civil and assume good faith. IZAK (talk) 09:24, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
Note to Winchester: Kindly avoid confrontational and deprecating terminology such as calling other user's material "nonsense" and "false claims" multiple times that's a violation of WP:CIVIL. Feel free to disagree but why are you insulting Yonoson all the time while he is respectful of you? The way you are going about constantly attacking Yonoson violates WP:CONSENSUS and of course WP:NPA by implication by making Yonoson seem like a spouter of "nonsense" and a "violator" while you take on the role of the one who "knows" what is "right and wrong". If you have a problem there are better ways to deal with it, such as Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard; Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard or see Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution. But the bickering and insults must stop. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 09:45, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
- @IZAK. Risking this post to be removed: don't be a sanctimonious pain in the behind. Debresser (talk) 18:53, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
Although Yonoson3 has been active on Misplaced Pages for a long time, he doesn't seem to have bothered reading the guidelines and clearly has no interest in abiding by them. Quite aside from his blatant biases and WP:SPA status, he refuses to adhere to any of the guidelines and actually linked to a hate site before I removed it - see his activity here; http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Elazar_Shach/Archive_2#Regarding_quotes_from_the_book_.22Al_HaTorah_V.27al_Ha.27Temurah.22 He has been warned many times by various editors, yet seems determined to force his agenda regardless. The guidelines support building an encyclopedia as opposed to a fringe advocacy platform, and WP:V WP:RS WP:NPOV all set rather clear parameters. It seems to me that perhaps when his detailed edit history is reviewed by uninvolved editors, we may finally clear the air.--Winchester2313 (talk) 17:56, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
- Debresser -- Hi. My eye was caught by your statement that articles on Misplaced Pages do not "habitually" have a complete list of works of people in the articles, just the most notable. I was wondering if you could give a diff to the policy that says it is not appropriate to have a complete list of works of the subject of an article? Thanks.--Epeefleche (talk) 16:17, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
- I wrote that more as a de facto. Still, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Bibliographies#Recommended_structure says something like it. Debresser (talk) 18:56, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
- Took a look, and here's what is says there: "This project seeks to establish consistency in naming bibliographies within the encyclopedia and recommends the following:..." Thus the goal of that is to have "consistency" and it's only a "recommendation" -- it does not set iron-clad rules about content. IZAK (talk) 18:27, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
- I resent your constant whining and hammering on the same disproved allegations. May I suggest that somebody remove this disruptive comment (or at least the latter half of it, although the first half is also not important) from this discussion. Debresser (talk) 17:19, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
- I don't understand the distinction between an "encyclopedic article about Shach" and a "biography" of Shach. Can you please clear up this distinction? Bus stop (talk) 17:56, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
- I resent your constant whining and hammering on the same disproved allegations. May I suggest that somebody remove this disruptive comment (or at least the latter half of it, although the first half is also not important) from this discussion. Debresser (talk) 17:19, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
- Maybe http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Not will help uou understand better :)
Reading all this fighting over this article its obvious that stuff that fits into specific policies should stay in, but stuff that people will challenge has to go. Isn't that WHY there are rules in the first place?! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.162.103.157 (talk) 16:49, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
Civility
This is a reminder to all that WP:Civility and WP:No personal attacks continue to apply to this page. — Malik Shabazz /Stalk 03:56, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
Regarding early bio info
I had added some biographical info, sourced in the book "Path to Greatness" (Bergman), but it was subsequently reverted by Winchester2313 - 1 2 3. As I said already, the book is very reliable and well-researched. I see no reason not to include this significant biographical info of Shach's life. If you believe that there is an "EXCEPTIONAL" claim here, please explain. If you believe the book to be unreliable as a whole, please raise the issue at WP:RS/N. If there are no valid objections, I will be restoring the info. Thanks Yonoson3 (talk) 06:56, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
- There are some issues with this as some have already said here. Please remember that all the info you put in needs to pass wp:v. That is just one issue. There are a lot of other issues with what sound like "exceptional" claims and Misplaced Pages demands "multiple high-quality sources". If it sounds too good to be true it really needs multiple and very good sources that pass wp:v and not just a book written by the subjects OWN grandson.
- No issues were raised with the biographical info I'm taking about (1 2 3). The issues were with other things in the book, which were claimed to be "exceptional" . The bio info here, though, has not been challenged. In regards to the book as being a verifiable source in general, no one so far has filed a complaint at WP:RS/N. I will be restoring the bio info if no valid objection is brought to the table. Thanks Yonoson3 (talk) 04:56, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
- You restored
and after his death, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon noted appreciation for his work, saying "There is no doubt that we have lost an important person who made his mark over many years. I express condolences on behalf of all of us; we share in the mourning and sorrow of his family and the haredi community.", which was deleted earlier today. Is all of that really necessary? I think the second sentence is so general that is had better be removed. Debresser (talk) 08:45, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
- You restored
- Ok, I see what you're saying, I'll take out the second half. Yonoson3 (talk) 15:52, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks. Debresser (talk) 18:46, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
Links to audio shiurim
I had added links to audio shiurim of Rabbi Shach, but these were removed by Winchester2313.
These links are relevant and important for those that want to get a better understanding of Rabbi Shach's ideology. So it seems to me they should be included. Any valid objections? Yonoson3 (talk) 03:29, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
- It is regarded as helpful on WP articles and fills out the "picture" of the subject to hear recording or videos by the subject of the article sometimes in the body of articles as Wikimedia links. Many articles have links to outside sources such as YouTube or other recording sources by their subjects in the External links section so provided it's put in as that, there should be no problem. IZAK (talk) 05:55, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
- I would like to make 2 remarks. 1. If that would be one link to a website with his lectures, that could still go, but a whole bunch of them to individual lectures, is definitely not okay (see WP:EL #3). 2. In general, it would be better if there would be a link to a documentary about him, then a link to something from him. This is what is called avoiding primary sources (see WP:RS). Debresser (talk) 06:42, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
- Regarding #1, maybe condensing the three links to this one link would be better? Yonoson3 (talk) 06:58, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
- Also, Yonoson3, in view of the opposition here, and the possibility of your personal interest in the subject, I'd advice you to establish firm consensus before any such edit you make. Debresser (talk) 06:42, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
- Honestly Debresser, the only ones who object can also be combined into only one group, i.e. the pro-Chabad (anti-Shach) editors, meaning you and Winchester, all the others are the comments who "speak" (often using language that violates WP:CIVIL) from anonymous IPs (see above) that runs totally counter to WP:WIKIQUETTE etc. So please give Yonoson a break as he works in WP:AGF to improve the quality of this article. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 09:16, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Actually there are probably many other people who don't like all the exagerated and false information a few people keep sticking into this article. Like me, they probably don't usually have the time or interest to fight. For the record, I think because of the very controversial nature of the subject here as well as the many obvious attemps to make him look better by followers writing false stories, this article should really be based mostly on newspapers and journalism and NOT on books by his family that try to polish Shachs image after he died. Gershon.
Info from another book "In Their Shadow"
In addition to "Path to Greatness", I would like to add info from the following book:
In Their Shadow: Wisdom and Guidance of the Gedolim Volume One: Chazon Ish, Brisker Rav, Rav Shach - By Rabbi Shlomo Lorincz - Published by Feldheim Publishers, 2008. 453 pages. - ISBN 978-1-59826-207-0
As I said regarding "Path to Greatness", Lorincz's book is also well-researched and has pertinent info. Again, if someone has problems with the book (as a whole) as being reliable for Misplaced Pages standards, please bring it up at WP:RS/N. And just as a reminder, please no insults or uncivil behavior, let's just stick to the point.
Assuming no complaints are filed, I will be adding info shortly. If there's a specific piece of info which you believe to be unreliable, please bring up the issue here. Thanks, Yonoson3 (talk) 02:16, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
- Excellent choice because (a) Feldheim Publishers is a WP:RS and likewise (b) Rabbi Shlomo Lorincz is a WP:NOTABLE personality. IZAK (talk) 05:06, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Ordination
Hi all. I deleted the section that was recently made by IZAK and moved the information to the correct section which is; 'Rabbinical Career'. Having another section with the name 'Ordination' makes no sense and is not done for any other rabbi's page. Thanks, Gershon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.101.207.138 (talk) 13:59, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
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