Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 03:04, 29 May 2013

Template:BLP noticeboard

This article is written in Canadian English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, centre, travelled, realize, analyze) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Biography: Politics and Government This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography This article is supported by the politics and government work group. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Canada: Toronto Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Canada, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Canada on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CanadaWikipedia:WikiProject CanadaTemplate:WikiProject CanadaCanada-related Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by WikiProject Toronto (assessed as Mid-importance). Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Politics This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Rob Ford received a peer review by Misplaced Pages editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

Rich playboy

Please explain how indicating that the family had a swimming pool,etc. makes him a playboy? What's wrong with noting he has pic of Harris? Or his leaving football at Carleton? There is no content in there that is offensive. Alaney2k (talk) 16:19, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm guessing that was vandalism, as it's not in the article anymore. -- Zanimum (talk) 18:56, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Length of controversy section

The controversy section is currently a massive wall of text, and it's pretty unreadable. Alaney2k didn't like me splitting it up into subheadings, but there needs to be something done to improve readability. I agree with his notion that we might collapse some of the subheadings, but even if we did that, the section would still be unruly. I'm not sure if splitting the section into a separate article is warranted so we are left with either organizing it better, or trimming it. I'm in favour of better organization, if someone is looking up an encyclopedia article on Rob Ford, this is probably the information they are looking for. Check out Kwame Kilpatrick for another controversial mayor with a large section of his page dedicated to his many PR nightmares. In the case of Ford, these are sadly the most notable features of his administration, so lets organize them in a more readable format. Pjjmd (talk) 22:20, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

I have to disagree on the style. It is not good style to add a sub-heading for every paragraph. A heading is to introduce a section. Putting a heading on every paragraph is more of a technical report style. Compared to Kirkpatrick, Ford's section is not a 'wall'. People can read that much. I think the feelings on Ford are mixed. Yes, people want to read about the controversies, but a lot want to read about his politics and budgets, cost-cutting, etc. They've made that point that it is a page full of complaints about Ford. So we need to proceed carefully. I think we could have a whole article, but people may object. We could sub-divide into sections on controversial quotes, anti-cycling and driving incidents to try to categorize. There seems to be more brewing about drinking, so we could have a controversial incidents sub-section. Alaney2k (talk) 17:43, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

: I agree on breaking things down into subdivisions, since the 'other controversy' section isn't ideal anyway, we might be able to remove it. Is there a good place to work on an article other than the live version? I agree it's a bit of a contentious issue, i'd like to make some changes and have a user like Alaney2k take a look at them before I edit the live page again. Is my userpage the best spot for that?Pjjmd (talk) 14:34, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

• Hat's off to Alaney2k for his or her work in moving paragraphs from the controversies section to other sections of the article. Geo Swan (talk) 21:29, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Seconded. This has to be an editor's nightmare in that regard  Natty10000 | Natter  21:38, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Semiprotection

Various editors have been keen to add a most interesting nugget to the article. This is sourced to the Toronto Star, which sounds dubious about its veracity (a video "appears to show" such and such). Let's wait until reputable news sources are rather more certain of its worth until we consider allowing its addition to the article (even as an "allegation"). After all, there's no hurry: Misplaced Pages isn't a newspaper. In order to cut short a resource-wasting edit war, I've s-protected the article.

Sleepily, I did so for an indefinite period. That was not deliberate: any admin who wishes to end the s-protection is free to do so without consulting me. The article will not be on my watchlist; if further edits seem to require full protection, then again an admin is free to do this without consulting me. -- Hoary (talk) 07:47, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

I completely agree with Hoary. The 2 sources; Gawker and Toronto Star even conflict on what the video reveals:

Gawker witness claimed it was Pierre Trudeau called a faggot by someone "off camera"

Toronto Star witnesses say it was Justin Trudeau who was called a fag by Ford himself

May122013 (talk) 14:44, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Gawker has clarified this in an update (mid-article). The speaker only said "Trudeau". Gawker didn't understand immediately that "Trudeau" likely meant the currently topical Justin and not the more internationally known Pierre. 24.212.129.21 (talk) 15:04, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

You realize that the crack cocaine video is being widely reported? I think it might be more appropriate to put a tag on the page that there are current events going on, rather than disallow adding anything. Alaney2k (talk) 15:33, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

I wonder, is there room for the article to briefly mention the story in a way that doesn't violate WP:BLP? Is it a problem to just say that 3 journalists (1 Gawker, 2 TorStar) have reported seeing the video, and that Ford denies the allegations? It would obviously be wrong to assert in Misplaced Pages's voice that anything on the alleged video is true, or even that the video exists, frankly, but it seems to me that a brief neutral mention that the story exists might be appropriate. Although, bottom line, I agree with Hoary - there is no hurry, and edit warring is always pointless, so I'm not trying to make a strong case for its inclusion, I'm just genuinely wondering if there is any appropriate way to mention this kind of thing while respecting BLP guidelines. Cheers, Dawn Bard (talk) 15:49, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

WP:BLP in my opinion precludes including this at this time. "Biographies of living persons ("BLP"s) must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid:". As others have said, there is no rush, either the video will soon become available or it will not; that will be the time to include it in this BLP I think. May122013 (talk) 14:28, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

The controversy, now making international headlines, in itself is very notable. Even if it turns out he's not smoking crack (doubtful), it's still a notable and increasingly major event in this person's biography. We're putting denial blinders on ourselves here by withholding mention. Not only will this likely require its own section, but I believe it will eventually have its own article. --Oakshade (talk) 16:52, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

On the BBC now I'd say that's a reliable source... 141.0.46.202 (talk) 16:54, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

As to conflicts between Gawker and Toronto Star's reportage of the content, if you were watching a video in the back of a shady car, and only had three times to watch, how accurate do you think your notes would be? (see Inattentional blindness) -- Zanimum (talk) 18:50, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, which is why the entire episode is so sketchy at this point in time, its based upon watching a video in the back seat of a car and in Gawker's case, I think it may have been only 1 time. May122013 (talk) 14:34, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

The only difference in description is in the comment about Justin Trudeau. Hardly a conflict. Alaney2k (talk) 14:57, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

I disagree because A: The other difference was who the Trudeau comment was attributed to, so there are 2 differences ( the Trudeau and the speaker) plus B: the video clip they saw was only 90 seconds long; you would think a couple of reporters if they were paying attention would not have 2 differences in recall of the content of such a short time span. The entire incident and the reporting there of seems sketchy to me; at least at this point in time, 5 days after Gawker first reported it. May122013 (talk) 02:52, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Does this at least qualify as "media relations", given his comments about the Star in reaction to the acquisitions? Especially considering they weren't the ones who broke the story internationally, only the ones breaking it locally. -- Zanimum (talk) 19:18, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Ford and the Star do have a long running feud complete with lawsuits and access denial but since Gawker appears to have published the story first, it would seem like shoehorning to get it into the article under media relations at this time, I think. May122013 (talk) 14:34, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

BLP policy: This is not a gossip rag or tabloid: "Contentious material about living persons ....that is ......poorly sourced should be removed immediately." I think that putting any reference or story about this non-available video is making Misplaced Pages a participate in a smear campaign and our BLP policy is clear in tone and content that this is something that does not qualify for inclision in a BLP at this time. May122013 (talk) 16:12, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

It's not poorly sourced, though, when the Toronto Star is reporting the story. If necessary, we could broaden the scope and pull in the CBC's reporting of the allegations. If we need to tread carefully with anything in the article, it's to err on the site of using weasel words, such as "a video appearing to show" instead of "a video showing". —C.Fred (talk) 16:19, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

I think the wording is completely open to discussion. Leaving this incident out is more or less just denial that this allegation has been raised. Remember that Ford himself has been arrested for DUI and marijuana possession, that he was drunk and disorderly at a Maple Leafs' game, at the two functions in March. It's an important allegation given his past behaviour. It's also important given that he is the mayor. I live in Toronto. I don't believe it reflects well on Toronto or Ford. But if we stick to what is reported, then we are doing what is expected of Misplaced Pages. I've written a lot of this article - I've put in lots of content on the budgets, transit policy, etc. I don't believe that we are out of line. Ford and his behaviour is widely known. Believe me, there is lots of salacious stuff that is not in this article. Before this, I removed the trivial complaint about the magnets on the cars. I try to keep it on the mark, which is providing a fair and as best possible neutral article about this person. I have been editing here for six years and have learned a lot about Misplaced Pages and doing a good job.

I fully agree that this story should be in the Misplaced Pages article, even if the tone is very conservative (for example "Unsubstantiated reports of filmed crack cocaine usage made international news, to which Rob Ford has responded with...") the true purpose of the BLP policy is to protect rumours from turning into presumed facts. Right now we have the opposite, The Daily Show covers it and people presume it is true, come to Misplaced Pages and become confused as to why it is not here. They do not get a chance to read what Mayor Ford has said about it. -- Zachaysan (talk) 16:46, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Secondly, it is the Fords' typical behaviour to launch smears about opponents or persons who make allegations, not the other way around. That the Star and Ford do not get along is not news. There are several columnists who disagree with Ford openly, but I have not seen any smears. You could argue that because they report on things outside of City Hall, that they are going beyond what was reported in the past. In the 1950s, drunken-ness of public officials was not reported. But that's not the case today. Alaney2k (talk) 17:49, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

I see under the RFC section above another editor said this, some time ago; "anything that suggests that Ford is guilty of having broken the law where he has not been convicted of doing so should not be on the page." I agree with that and think that simple assessment might equally apply with this non-available 90 second video clip reportedly seen in the back seat of a car. May122013 (talk) 02:44, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

BLP Noticeboard

I have placed this matter on the BLP noticeboard. It concerns me greatly that many Editors here have inserted their personal opinions about the past behaviour of the subject of this BLP and refer to their or others' opinions as reasoning for how to deal with the content of this BLP. I could be wrong about this but I feel it is clearly contrary to the spirit and letter of our BLP policies to include any reference to this salacious news item at this early stage, especially since the alleged evidence ( video ) is not available to any reliable source yet. May122013 (talk) 02:19, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Restore neutral coverage of crack cocaine video now...

On May 20th, in this edit a contributor removed a large section of the article that had been devoted to coverage of reports that drug dealers were trying to sell a video of Ford smoking crack and making vulgar comments.

I don't see a place where that contributor has explained their excision, other than in their edit summary, that says: "Substance abuse allegations: removiing contentious material pending consensus".

I don't see a place where a specific discussion over the neutrality and appropriateness of this excised comment was initiated.

Since the long passage was removed:

1. The reporting by Gawker and Toronto Star journalist has been picked up, and commented upon, by newspapers and television news around the world;
2. The School Board has dismissed Ford from coaching the Don Bosco High School Football Team. Commentators are attributing his firing to the controversy over the crack video;
3. Jon Stewart devoted over six minutes to the crack video and crack in Toronto;
4. Jimmy Kimmel featured a skit, re-enacting the crack video;
5. Leno also joked about Ford;

Without a specific discussion as to the specific arguments why neutral coverage of the initial reporting of the Gawker/TorStar investigation how can we know whether a consensus has been reached?

I don't know whether the discussion should take place here, or on BLPN. But I think there must be a specific discussion where we can agree a conclusion was reached. Geo Swan (talk) 22:07, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Jokes about allegations are no more substantial than allegations. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:23, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Was the excised material neutrally written?

Was the excised material neutrally written? -- it seems to me that it was both neutrally written and properly referenced, and there were no grounds to excise it based on WP:NPOV or WP:RS/WP:VER. I call on anyone who disagrees to explain themselves here. Geo Swan (talk) 22:07, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Is the excised material relevant?

Is the excised material relevant?

As I expained on WP:BLPN, it seems to me that those arguing coverage of the Gawker/TorStar reporting on the video is based on treating Ford as a "private person", when he is a very "public figure". Geo Swan (talk) 22:07, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

• I posted this elsewhere, but this should be posted here instead, so I'll repeat it: It's completely ridiculous that this story is being ignored. Obviously this is a major story in the biography of Ford--no matter how it pans out. Maybe the allegations will prove to be false... in which case a simple "The Allegations of drug abuse turned out to be false" would obviously suffice. People all over the world are clicking on this page, having never heard of Ford before the allegations went public, and can't find anything about it???? The question isn't whether or not Ford did or didn't smoke crack. It's that media has reported that he HAS. Misplaced Pages should simply reference the fact that the allegations are out there--it doesn;t have to assume they're right or wrong. Anything less is just wrong.--184.145.28.226 (talk) 22:35, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

  and we can wait until it pans out. We are not a breaking news service. We owe the facts, not the first. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:37, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

  And this fact is already out: there is an alleged video the purports to show Rob Ford smoking crack. It's no longer breaking news (the story's been out for a week!), and its certainly not an obscure story. It's part of his bio. Some acknowledgement of that simple fact is to be expected, especially by[REDACTED] users who are not closely following the twists and turns in the story.--184.145.28.226 (talk) 00:38, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

  yes, lots of people are talking about the very flimsy allegations. we dont need to present chatter about the allegations just because they are.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:16, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

  After six days, the primary reason that this isn't "flimsy" is because Rob Ford doesn't seem to be able to say outright "The video is a fake. That isn't me". That he's gone essentially to ground and clammed-up sends the message that regardless of how low a contempt the individuals who recorded things may be held in, it seems they aren't lying. You seem to want to send this particular event to the memory hole when in fact it is an ongoing issue that has the wherewithal to be defining.  Natty10000 | Natter  01:56, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

  "Absolutely not true." you cannot really get much more of an outright denial than that. You could try asking him if he has stopped beating his wife or maybe you could tell him, "I dont believe your denial because you didnt swear on a stack of 13 bibles, there were only 12, and you didnt spit on your finger before you pinky swear, and you didnt travel back to Europe to swear on the grave of your grandmother." But you have made up your mind and wouldnt believe him even if he had done those. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 02:11, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

*Include The drug allegations were the top-100 hits on my Google search. Written very carefully, very neutrally, and being quite careful because, yes, these allegations have criminal implications. ...That said, the sheer volume on irrelevant gossip + undue weight in this article could stun a team of oxen in its tracks. A call-by-call replay of badly-gone-wrong comedy ambush? No. The subject manages the largest city in Canada - that work should be the most significant in this article. For a comparable article, I would recommend Marion Barry as a controversial, significant mayor. It's B-class, the highest-rated fair comp I could find. EBY (talk) 19:16, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

If there is some other specific reason for disclusion, please explain it here...

Edit request on 18 May 2013

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

The link to note 133: Cook, John (May 17,2013). "(Update) We Are Raising $200,000 to Buy and Publish the Rob Ford Crack Tape". Gawker. is broken, it should be: http://gawker.com/we-are-raising-200-000-to-buy-and-publish-the-rob-ford-508230073 76.68.49.190 (talk) 04:57, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

 Already done - by User:AuburnPilot with this edit. Thanks for pointing it out. Begoon  09:51, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

References = Further Reading and Notes = References?

The references section lists:

• McDonald, Marci (2012). "The Incredible Shrinking Mayor". Toronto Life (May 2012): pp. 40–54.
• The Unknown Torontonian (2011). The little book of Rob Ford. Toronto, ON: House of Anansi Press Inc. ISBN 978-1-77089-007-7.

Are these references directly used in the article, or are they really "Further reading". If so, we can change Notes to References. -- Zanimum (talk) 14:24, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Citation needed on "crack video"

Mention of the alleged "crack video" does not meet wikipedia's policies (biography of living persons.. or something or other) as there is no proof such a video exists. No one outside of a gossip columnist, and reporters from a newspaper with a clear vendetta against the mayor have even SEEN this video, allegedly shot by drug dealers.

If these unsubstantiated allegations are sufficient for inclusion into a Misplaced Pages article, I very strongly question the usefulness of Misplaced Pages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.212.149.43 (talk) 16:32, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

This article covers the allegations, it covers the response to the allegations, and covers the media coverage. It does not pass judgement. If you can cite a specific part of this section that is causing an issue, please state so.

Regardless of the Toronto Star and their goal (if anything more than covering the news) the currently unsubstantiated allegations are being covered internationally. Most of Ford's incidents only receive local or minimal national coverage. This situation's coverage is widespread. Besides the outlets cited there, The New York Times, Bloomberg, BBC News, USA Today, and Forbes all have. Even small American outlets like the Evansville Courier & Press. -- Zanimum (talk) 17:26, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

There is no first hand account of the act. There are only the allegations, second hand, via Gawker and the Toronto Star. The other sources you mention only reference the Star and Gawker - THIRD HAND information. The fact is, the allegations are unsubstantiated. Do unsubstantiated allegations merit inclusion in a[REDACTED] article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.212.149.43 (talk) 17:48, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages editors did not initiate the discussion or the events or the allegations. What is included here is that someone is shopping a video of Ford. It has apparently also been offered to cfrb. It does not take undue prominence in the article, but it is reported. I have asked an editor/admin to review it for violations of policy. It's a difficult spot to stand on. It should be included due to its wide reporting. Readers expect to have it mentioned. Even newspapers sympathetic to Ford are reporting the allegations. We should do about the same, and be neutral. That Ford has been reported in the recent past has having been intoxicated can only be reported in context, no more no less. But several reports mean also that it is not one unsubstantiated incident, but either a series of events that have actually occurred or a series of personal attacks on Ford. Either seems extraordinary. Alaney2k (talk) 18:17, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

"Do unsubstantiated allegations merit inclusion in a[REDACTED] article?" - If the allegations and the ensuing response to the allegations are reported at an international level, yes. Whether these allegations are proven true or false in the future, this little episode has gained enough notability in my mind to gain inclusion in this article. Sepsis II (talk) 01:19, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree with 24.212.149.43 and since the matter is in dispute here on the talk page, I think Editors who keep re-including the information on the main page are not adhering to basic BLP policy. May122013 (talk) 02:59, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm with the "keep" side. As long as we say people claim to have seen Ford smoking crack in a video (not "Ford was caught smoking crack on camera" or anything), and then illustrate the repercussions and rebuttals, I think we're OK. The notable thing isn't the act of smoking crack, or even the allegations, but the scandal which followed. We know that exists, and whether the allegations are true is largely irrelevant by this point (except to the extent that we shouldn't say they are or aren't true). InedibleHulk (talk) 04:17, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

It's completely ridiculous that this story is being ignored. Obviously this is a major story in the biography of Ford--no matter how it pans out. Maybe the allegations will prove to be false... in which case a simple "The Allegations of drug abuse turned out to be false" would obviously suffice. People all over the world are clicking on this page, having never heard of Ford before the allegations went public, and can't find anything about it???? The question isn't whether or not Ford did or didn't smoke crack. It's that media has reported that he HAS. Misplaced Pages should simply reference the fact that the allegations are out there--it doesn;t have to assume they're right or wrong. Anything less is just wrong. --76.70.0.19 (talk) 16:54, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

WP:BLP uh no. we are not breaking news and we are not a tabloid. We walk on the conservative side when dealing with living people. As of last night, all there was was 2 pairs of journalists saying they had seen a video made by junkies who were trying to sell it for a lot of money of a man who looked like he was doing something that might be illegal who in their opinion looked like it might have been RF. That is way too flimsy. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:29, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

The Red Pen of Doom says " As of last night, all there was was 2 pairs of journalists saying they had seen a video made by junkies who were trying to sell it for a lot of money of a man who looked like he was doing something that might be illegal who in their opinion looked like it might have been RF.".... Duh? WHY NOT JUST SAY THAT? Your statement is exactly right--and it should be included in the story, because no matter how this pans out, the story is part of Ford's biography. It's not unlike the Whitewater scandal in the case of Bill Clinton. A bunch of unsubstantiated claims that ultimately amounted to nothing, and yet not only is it part of Clinton's biography, the Whitewater controversy has its OWN wiki page! The crack story doesn't need its own wiki page, but it's obviously more than some obscure rumor on some blog somewhere. The controversy is part of Rob Ford's biography no matter how it pans out.184.145.28.226 (talk) 22:32, 22 May 2013 (UTC)--184.145.28.226 (talk) 22:32, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

again, we are not a breaking news service - we can and per WP:BLP should wait until it pans out. We are not a WP:CRYSTALball. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:10, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

again, this isn't breaking news. Can you stop with that line already? That line might have made sense a week ago. No one is asking you to break a news story. Nobody is under the illusion that[REDACTED] is a news source. And if we need wait until things "pan out", then when exactly does this story deserve a mention in wikipedia? Suppose it takes months? Years? How about this: why not mention what we DO know already, which is this: two media organizations have reported that a video is being shopped around that purports to show Rob Ford smoking crack cocaine. NOBODY would dispute that simple fact--not even Ford himself is disputing those simple facts. It's a reasonable compromise... not sure why you're insisting on ignoring the story, other than bias on your part. --184.145.28.226 (talk) 02:14, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Rfc: Undue weight?

Please consider joining the feedback request service. An editor has requested comments from other editors for this discussion. This page has been added to the following list: Biographies When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the list. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.

Despite how people see Mr Ford in the City of Toronto or Canada as a whole this article is over the top - giving disproportionate space to controversies and speculations. What is the best way to approach this problem? - trim the section? summarizes better? any suggestions? Moxy (talk) 15:41, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

For several years now, I think we have been discussing what to do about the section. About a year ago, I added more information about his political career, because the article was literally 80% devoted to controversies. But, I think it is in Ford's nature to be controversial. So, how do you trim? Really, there is so much more that is not in the article! There is even more about his family not in this article like his sister's drug abuse and the murder of of his sister's ex-boyfriend. You have to draw the line somewhere - but I would define him myself as controversial, not "painted that way". He might not be notable otherwise. I definitely add stuff to the article then try to subtract. That's my nature of writing. If you feel you can summarize it better, I welcome it. But, in the end, I think Ford will forever be known for his controversial and publicity-hungry behaviour. He definitely is a party boy too. He has character flaws and he and his brother admit it. He has shown genuine concern about many things in Toronto - such as the housing corp, but he seems to always using insults and smears in his political battles. I don't recall in recent memory a mayor of Toronto that has so many negative things said and done towards him - the lawsuits, the naked picture, etc. He is very polarizing. Alaney2k (talk) 15:52, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

We have to balance the tone - not only do we have a huge section on speculation just added and a huge section on controversies the whole article is littered with a ...."Ford did this action, HOWEVER everyone thinks hes a moron for doing so" type tone. I am more then willing to help but I think after reading the sections above we need to get outsiders that dont know him as a political entity to comment on the tone of the article before we fix this. To me it looks like we have to apposing sides dividing the article up. Moxy (talk) 16:00, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

• Comment It's hard to imagine what an outside who knows Ford as something other than a "political entity" would look like. Rob Ford is only famous as a political entity, and only Torontonians would like know him as anything other than a controversial mayor. Indeed, as an American, I only learned about Rob Ford when visiting Toronto and hearing about him repeatedly in conversation in the context of one or more of his controversial statements or actions (the TTC bus used for ferrying his football players was a big one at the time). Furthermore, Typing "Rob Ford" into google, for example, brings up hordes of links about the scandals, gaffes, and controversies surrounding him, and very little about his actual political platforms or accomplishments (I just did this now, and noticed with amusement that the "Crackstarter" page comes up right after this one). I have to agree with Alaney2k here; Rob Ford is just a controversial figure. siafu (talk) 16:41, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

This is what I am looking for - to see what people think of the weight. Thank you for your comments.Moxy (talk) 16:50, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

"Rob Ford is only famous as a political entity"? 100 million dollars per year in sales for his company according to the Toronto Star and that isn't even mentioned. It's obvious that the controversies are way over-weighted; at least I think so. May122013 (talk) 03:14, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

$100 million a year in sales for a company is not actually super significant; there are thousands of businessmen and women who can make such a claim who never manage to grace the headlines. The Toronto Star is in fact only reporting that number because Mr. Ford is famous as a politician. siafu (talk) 15:23, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, in fact May's cite is an article about a potential conflict of interest. Alaney2k (talk) 15:34, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

And the $100 million figure -is- mentioned in the personal life section. Alaney2k (talk) 16:04, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

• Here's an outside view: I'm not a Canadian and have never heard of this guy before, so my opinion shouldn't carry much weight, but for what it's worth I think the amount of text given to controversies in this article is more than we should aim for in biographies of politicians, even controversial ones. (That said, it's also hardly unusual for Misplaced Pages - there are plenty of biographies of American, British, Australian etc. politicians that are just as unbalanced.) The five paragraphs given over to the current cocaine story seems particularly excessive; it might be a good idea to go back and take another look at that section once the story has died down (unless, of course, it results in his resignation or something like that). Robofish (talk) 20:58, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree withRobofish and I would like to once again remove the cocaine allegations until hopefully more senior editors will respond to the BLP Noticeboard request for attention here. It is my view that many editors here have allowed their own opinion about the mayor to influence the content of the BLP and this is nothing new whatsoever as can be seen by reviewing the entire talk page. May122013 (talk) 03:06, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

May, this is futile. The mayor will just put his foot in his mouth again tomorrow, and the next day and the next day. Content on the substance abuse allegations will be returned to the article, not because editors disagree with you, but because it is notable. Why don't you work on the content to improve it, instead of working to suppress it? Alaney2k (talk) 15:33, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

• Reduce content There is far to much detail on controversies and policies. Martin Hogbin (talk) 18:09, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

NPOV tag

Rather than removing the crack cocaine allegations again, I have put the NPOV tag on the article until we can come to a consensus that conforms to BLP policies. May122013 (talk) 03:20, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Consensus does not equal unanimity, May. Since the content section is out right now, as it is being discussed on the BLP noticeboard, will you remove the npov tag? Or are you objecting to any other section? If so, please provide some reasoning. Alaney2k (talk) 16:21, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

ok, will do. May122013 (talk) 20:22, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Now that the content section is back in, the NPOV tag will be too. May122013 (talk) 22:33, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Systemic Bias Tag

An apparently uninvolved editor placed a systemic bias tag on the BLP with an edit summary saying: "bias is systemic due to traditional "reliable sources" being heavily tilted against Ford for a number of reasons; this article needs a special amount of care". The tag was removed quickly for non-discussion. I did not know such a tag existed and I am putting it back as I think it applies perfectly as can be seen by the many comments on this talk page about the Subject's treatment by the media and his ongoing feud and legal actions with the Toronto Star particularly. If more discussion is needed to justify the continued use of this tag then lets have it here. Imo , I did not know such a tag existed but since it does, this BLP needs it for all the reasons identified in the preceding sections of this talk page. May122013 (talk) 12:54, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Allegations that the entire mainstream media are in a conspiracy against Ford is not a valid claim of systemic bias. Such a claim is in fact antithetical to basic content polices and guidelines such as WP:UNDUE and WP:RS - we weight things the way the mainstream sources cover the subject. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:12, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree with TheRedPenOfDoom. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 13:19, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree with TheRedPen as well. Paul Erik 13:21, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree with TRPoD here. We can't treat the "whole media is against Ford" thing as absolute truth just because Ford says its true. Dawn Bard (talk) 13:29, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

While I am late to the party I too agree. Dbrodbeck (talk) 14:37, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree with TheRedPenOfDoom. The "media" is not a block that acts en masse. The views of various media outlets are as varied as the markets that will support them.  Natty10000 | Natter  16:50, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I have just removed the tag, as I don't see "systemic bias" in the article. The article has reasonable balance between supportive and critical opinions of Mr. Ford. I would suggest that the sections on the Conflict of Interest case and other Controversies should be trimmed down. PKT(alk) 14:10, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Many editors have suggested that the controversies section be "trimmed down"but they don't do it themselves; hence it never does get trimmed down; at least not very much. Perhaps an editor who has not been expressing any opinions about these matters could do the trimming? May122013 (talk) 14:48, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

People who are not familiar with -all- of the controversies/scandals, etc. of Mr. Ford are typically the ones who say trim it down. And respectfully, I think PKT may be that way. But also it's persons who think the article is merely a smear article. I've tried working the opposite way, trying to add more about his actual career to provide balance, but then month after month Ford does something else. The Little Book of Rob Ford is a book entirely composed of his smears on various groups! The day before the crack scandal, there was an item about putting magnets on cars, while skipping out on a council meeting. I removed it for triviality. Prior to that, someone wanted to put in info about his apparently deadly body mass index value - I commented it out. I think the conflict of interest section could be summarized, for certain, but it will be extremely difficult to trim the other controversies section with this subject person and still provide what people wish to know. There was a tag on the article to bring the article up to date, and that was when the March allegations of drunken-ness were being made. There is no mention of his interview where he criticized the football players he coaches as losers who will never amount to anything, and his coaching of the football team - which he has placed at a level of priority over attending council meetings. There is no mention of his hiring people in his mayor's office that work on the football program. It's all fairly murky, and Ford works to keep details out of the media's hands, just so they have some plausible deniability. That's the way his team works. They have a policy of ignoring reporters of the Toronto Star - the largest paper in Toronto. And now, since March, there has been this haze over Ford of substance abuse and public drunken-ness. It's not all in this article - for example, he's been ejected at least once from a bar for rowdyness attributed to intoxication. Alaney2k (talk) 15:41, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

if "what people wish to know" is the scandals, they can google their favorite tabloid. we are presenting an encyclopedia. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:35, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

That's not an appropriate response and you know it. We should not suppress information at Wiki subjectively. The material is contentious, but it is completely pertinent to the subject of the article. Alaney2k (talk) 20:11, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

It is a completely appropriate response. If you want to write for scandalpedia, you will need to go elsewhere. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:58, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

You're over-stepping your brief, TRPoD. There's every indication that this scandal (however it plays out) will likely be looked back upon as a defining episode (and perhaps the penultimate one) in the political career of Rob Ford and likely by association, Doug Ford. That being the case, the scandals and their details are noteworthy and belong in this wiki entry (though with scrutiny to maintain the requisite neutral stance).  Natty10000 | Natter  21:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Once your WP:CRYSTALBALL has been authenticated, I will have no problems utilizing its predictions. Until then, we go based on what is present now, what is present now is not something that meets WP:BLP standards. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:33, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

"We go based on what is present now". Is this the royal "we"? Sorry but your interpretation of WP:BLP seems self-serving and leaning towards bias.  Natty10000 | Natter  22:51, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

the best way to handle it is to incorporate them into the general history of the person. when reading the biography as a whole its generally pretty easy to tell if a particular "controversy" is of any actual importance and impact compared with everything else in the story, or if its just a fart in the windstorm and has nothing but the fact that it was a slow news cycle. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:33, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

That is contradictory to leaving it out. Alaney2k (talk) 20:11, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

There is a HUGE difference between documented things that did happen and have been covered, and allegations of something based on the opinions of 4 people based on a film made by junkies. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:40, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

You keep saying "A film made by junkies". Shouldn't that be alleged junkies? At any rate, the allegation has happened, and that ought to be reported. Echoedmyron (talk) 23:11, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

• I agree with Echoedmyron, someone used this exact same phrase at BLPN as well. From the initial Gawker/TorStar reporting the photographer was the drug dealer, or an associate of theirs. Some, but not all, drug dealers are also addicts. People addicted to cocaine are not "junkies". The term "junkie" refers exclusively to those with an addiction opiates -- not cocaine. Geo Swan (talk) 00:19, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I would much rather we had the various controversies put into the general article, rather than a separate section. Controversy sections are, to me, sloppy writing. They also tend to end up as laundry lists of everything anyone considers a controversy. Then people want to balance them with other things, and we get bloated articles. Dbrodbeck (talk) 20:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I do like having controversy mixed into the main article.

As per "slow news cycle" -- hah! We've got Tim Bosco/Dellen Millard, a very contentious downtown casino vote, a Senate controversy, so many other big news headlines, the Star wouldn't create a story (ever, but particularly) during all of this. -- Zanimum (talk) 20:54, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

And that isn't even taking into consideration the worldwide news media and talk show attention that this incident has garnered (and presumably will continue to garner until someone comes clean.  Natty10000 | Natter  21:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Per WP:BLP you need to stop making accusations of criminal activity. Talk pages are covered as well. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:34, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Again, consensus does not mean unanimity. Your opinion is just one opinion. Stop acting like it's worth more. I would say a majority do wish a mention, than have it excised completely. It is notable by any measure. Alaney2k (talk) 22:37, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

BLP does not say "a majority can over-ride this policy". We can wait until we have an actual answer before we include content. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:40, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't believe that BLP means to censor Misplaced Pages. That's what you are advocating. We work by WP:CON, including interpretations of BLP. We have a specific rule here to cover this very situation: WP:WELLKNOWN. What is your reason to over-ride that? Alaney2k (talk) 22:49, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that a majority of editors here over the past week or so are/have been in favor of including the crack allegations news at this time. So, I don;t think that the "consensus does not mean unanimity" argument really applies. May122013 (talk) 04:26, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Vastly too much negative content.

This article contains more negative and critical content than Pol Pot and Adolf Hitler. It should give a balanced view of the subject. It is not necessary or desirable to put every negative piece of information (usually from the media) in great detail into the article. Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:20, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Are you suggesting "giving a balanced view" requires artificially making sure there is as much content that shows a subject in a positive light as there is content that you think shows the subject in a negative light?

If this is what you are suggesting:

1. From your reading of RS that cover Mr Ford, do you think there is some positive aspect of his career in public life, his career in business, or his personal life, that has not received a fair amount of coverage? Okay, what are the missing positive aspects?
2. Are you suggesting we cast out neutrally written, properly referenced coverage of Mr Ford, if we can't find more positive aspects of his life to cover?

With regard to your comparison of our coverage of Mr Ford and Mr Hitler, leaving aside the moral dimension, once he rose to the position of leadership he aimed for, Mr Hitler started to accomplish his goals. Mr Hitler set out to conquer most of Europe, and he did conquer France, Poland, Czeckoslovakia, Greece, Yugoslavia, Hungary, Austria, and significant parts of North Africa and the Soviet Union. He turned Finland, Romania (and Bulgaria(?)) and arguably Italy into nominally sovereign vassal states. If this is what you regard as the positive aspects of our coverage of Mr Hitler, and you think Mr Ford's article lacks coverage of where he reached his goals, has it occurred to you that Mr Ford largely failed to achieve his goals?

No one is arguing we put every negative piece of information into the article. If you think you can identify information in the article that is not particularly relevant, or is not sufficiently well documented, it would be helpful for you to name the specific coverage you regard as problematic.

Yesterday I searched the archives of various noticeboards, to see where coverage of Mr Ford had been raised. Back in September 2010 someone argued that coverage of Mr Ford's very public description of "orientals" as a group who "work like dogs" was unnecessary, excessive, and that it should be removed. I think that commentators in RS are returning to this controversial comment, in 2013, shows coverage of that comment was appropriate, and, that our coverage of that comment should be expanded.

So please, if you take your concern to the next step, and actually identify passages you think are unnecessary, please make a serious effort to explain why you think they are unnecessary. Geo Swan (talk) 17:37, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I characterize the initial complaint as a 'drive-by'. Too often editors make a comment without any actual interest in improving the article. In the past year, I actually have added more of Ford's political career, although he is much more well known for his controversies. It is his style and I believe sincerely that he himself would not object to being characterized that way. Most of the "negative and critical comment" is simply the mention of his controversial comments. Frankly, I think a lot of persons agree with that content and have no objection. I think if we took out the controversies, it would be reduced to some discussion of his being a conservative and against tax increases and that would be nowhere near a comprehensive article on the man. Alaney2k (talk) 17:48, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I was responding to an RfC.

There is vastly too much detail on controversies. Have a look at the two articles that I mentioned above. Two of the worst people in history but both have a lesser proportion of the article on negative aspects than this one. Martin Hogbin (talk) 19:35, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

In Hitler's case, there are articles on the Holocaust, World War II, etc. This is just one article. Some of the difficulty is that it is current and there are not yet books written on the subject. Meaning, you have to provide some context instead of just making a citation where you can use an author's summation. I'll ask you too to make specific suggestions. Would you agree that it would be acceptable to have a list of his quotes? That might reduce the prose count, but I wonder what section that would go in. I might add that there is more to Ford not in the article, such as his opposition to arts grants and opposition to gay and lesbians that is not in the article? Besides, Misplaced Pages is not paper. Alaney2k (talk) 19:59, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I am not going to argue here any longer. There seems to be a trend on WP to use it as a soapbox which needs addressing more generally. Martin Hogbin (talk) 21:47, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

This is what happens here, I don't know why, some very good and objective editors just plain throw in the towel from exhaustion...its a loss to the quality of the BLP. May122013 (talk) 22:32, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

As a courtesy to other to other contributors could we please discuss controversial edits on the talk page, not in the edit summaries?

I added a couple of sentences to the paragraph about Ford's infamous comment about how "orientals ... work like dogs". User:Red Pen of Doom excised it 12 minutes later, claiming "per BLPN and talk". In fact, exciser actually had made no attempt to explain this excision, on BLPN, or the talk page. So I specifically asked for an explanation, on their talk page. Since they still didn't bother to explain I restored the passage.

Before I was able to leave this explanation exciser excised this passage a 2nd time -- this time with the inadequated edit summary "already covered".

That reliable sources tied the Gawker/TorStar reports of the crack video to Ford's comments that "orientals ... work like dogs" is NOT already covered, which I think makes excisers's edit summary highly misleading.

Rather than reverting this unexplained excision myself, a second time, I am going to leave the undo link here, and request someone who agrees with me that their unexplained excision has no policy basis to revert it.

I have explained elsewhere how making controversial edits, where the sole explanation for the edit is in the edit summary is a terrible trigger to edit warring. There is a grave temptation for the reverted party to do their own revert, so they could reply with their own edit summary. The result? Instant edit-war.

Not only are edit-wars to be avoided, but this deeply troubling edit tactic is a grave dis-service to later readers -- who should be able to count on finding the discussion of complicated issues with the article, on the talk page. Even if the later reader figures out that the real discussion is embedded in the edit summary, they will have to step through the diffs, one at a time, to really follow the discussion. Following a discussion where one has to pay attention to the edit summaries; and the actual diffs; and the talk page; imposes a heavy and unnecessary cognitive burden on respondents. I urge exciser, and everyone else, to never rely solely on edit summaries to explain complicated or controversial edits. Geo Swan (talk) 15:59, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Geo Swan (talk) 15:59, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

If you want to discuss things on the talk page , how about starting with a discussion of why this article has so much negative content on the subject. Martin Hogbin (talk) 16:11, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Because that's what a neutral reporting on the subject dictates? – Muboshgu (talk) 16:13, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Agree. Since most of the coverage of the subject is negative, the article would be as well. In particular, most if not all international coverage is negative. And Ford's comments on orientals were made in City Council and recorded. TFD (talk) 20:43, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

• As per the comments above and here, I will revert this instance of basically RedPen's unexplained excisions. Geo Swan (talk) 08:09, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Too much bumpf to scroll through before the TOC?

Does anyone else agree this talk page has too many screenfuls of bumpf to scroll through, prior to the table of contents?

I added an explicit __TOC__ prior to the templates that instantiate the bumpf. Geo Swan (talk) 19:03, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Could remove mention of the trial to remove him from office from the lead. Since he won his appeal, it is no longer as important. TFD (talk) 20:45, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree with that, 4 deuces, will do. May122013 (talk) 22:28, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

• By bumpf I was referring to the half dozen administrative templates that instantiated to several screens full of information I think we all had to skip over to get to the actual discussions.

{{talk header}}

{{BLP noticeboard}}

{{Canadian English}}

{{]}}

{{WikiProject Biography}}

{{WikiProject Canada}}

{{WikiProject Politics}}

{{Old peer review}}

• I wasn't suggesting any actual topics for discussion should be removed, and I would prefer the automatic archiving be relied upo to put stale discussions in the archive. Geo Swan (talk) 13:02, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Lead needs to make some mention of his controversies

The lead is biased in Ford's favor by not mentioning any of his scandals or whatever you want to call them. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:56, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Just say that he is controversial. There are just too many incidents to put them in the lead. TFD (talk) 23:08, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Until this and other issues shake out, it's a bit early to be saying just how accurate the lead is  Natty10000 | Natter  23:12, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

What about adding a simple "Ford has been faced with many controversies throughout his term in office"? -- Zanimum (talk) 23:40, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Hoax?

Gawker's update today says this: "First order of business: The last time we established contact with the people who are in possession of the video was this past Sunday, and we have not been able to reach them since."

Also, have a look at the graphic they use for this "story". Is this really a reliable source? Not in my book. Since they have now raised $160,000 I am wondering why the video vendor has become incommunicado; also, I always wondered why they set the goal so high; the news reports only said that $100,000 was being asked. I suggest we hedge our bets on this aspect of the BLP by not mentioning it at all at least until after Monday when the crowdsourcing campaign is over. May122013 (talk) 04:10, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Losing contact with the video holder does not transform the reporters having viewed the video as having never happened. The Gawker graphic used for entertainment purposes has nothing to do with the editing of this article. Gawker has become a very respected news source over the years with countless notable stories coming from their websites. --Oakshade (talk) 04:26, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

We should not use Gawker as a source in this article (it is used in support of the statement that they first reported the story.) However the story is mostly supported by news media, which are rs, and we are not claiming the video is genuine. If and when a final determination is made, then we can report it. Also, WP:BLP does not apply. We are merely reporting what has appeared in the press. TFD (talk) 04:38, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

• Are you suggesting that a previous central discussion conclded Gawker should not generally be seen as a reliable source? If this is what you are suggesting please provide a link here to the discussion or discussions you think established this.
• Even if, for the sake of argument, there was a central discussion that concluded that Gawker wasn't generally a reliable source, I suggest that Gawker would still be a reliable source for the original reporting from the Gawker reporters. That is, something like: "On May 14, 2013, reporters from Gawker reported that they were shown a recording that appeared to show Rob Ford smoking crack.<ref name=Gawker2013-05-14/>" Geo Swan (talk) 12:44, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

• Toronto Police Services has gone on record that they are "monitoring" this controversy. I suggest that, instead of it being an indication that this is a hoax, Gawker not being able to reach the drug dealer with the video could mean the video owner is concerned that extra police monitoring puts him at greater risk of arrest. A sensible precaution would have been to throw out the cell phone that reporters had phoned them on, because, if the police got its number they could get a warrant, and use that phone to arrest them. If the police had the cooperation of the cell phone provider, even turning the phone on would allow the cell phone provider to locate the cell area the phone was in. Geo Swan (talk) 12:44, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Sellers of video "vanish" : Globe and Mail

Looking exactly like a hoax now. Canada's premier reliable source, the globe and mail's headline today :"Gawker’s ‘Crackstarter’ campaign hits bump: Sellers of alleged Ford video vanish" If anyone reinserts this garbage, please be sure to include this aspect. May122013 (talk) 14:08, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Um, no. Just because you think it is a hoax doesn't make it one. That is you own POV coming into play. And the Globe article does not itself say that it is a hoax. The allegations should stand, as reported allegations; when the mayor makes a meaningful reply to the allegations, add that in. For crying out loud, the Toronto Sun is reporting that chief of staff Mark Towhey was fired for urging Ford to seek help: . Echoedmyron (talk) 14:21, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

We are following BLP by including the item. WP:WELLKNOWN. May, don't keep reverting or you will be reported and asked to be blocked. Alaney2k (talk) 14:45, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Seconding Echoedmyron's "hoax" point. You might have a leg to stand on had reporters from Gawker and the Star not seen the video. But unfortunately, the elephant in the 'hoax' room is that they have. The other point is that the story has moved on from the video to Rob Ford's responses (or lack thereof) over the last week, responses which combined with the sudden lack of accessibility even to Ford-friendly media outlets and yesterday's peremptory firing of his Chief of Staff speak more of a wounded-and-cornered animal than of an innocent man wronged. Natty10000 | Natter  14:49, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

May122013, you're actually breaking WP:BLP and WP:NOR by making such a claim with zero sources making such a stipulation. That Globe and Mail piece is simply reporting the content of the Gawker one that states the video holders are currently incommunicado. That doesn't make the video that the reporters viewed a hoax and is only your original research speculation. --Oakshade (talk) 15:00, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

I see that May has been warned about his disruptive editing and has even taken his complaint to the Village Pump. I think we should probably ask for an administrator to look into this editor. If this person claims to be so knowledgeable about BLP, then the ed. must have previous experience with Wiki, but May122013 only signed on, on May 20 this year. Was this editor previously blocked? Alaney2k (talk) 15:07, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

FWIW, May122013 claims to have been User:Mr.grantevans2 and prior to that User:Mr.grantevans but both times 'forgot' his/her password. It may be that an admin should look into that further. Something doesn't seem quite on to me Natty10000 | Natter  15:30, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

By his/her own admission May122013 (talk) used to edit under Mr.grantevans2. This user has old history dating back to fall 2010 when he edited this article and others during the 2010 election. In both incarnations he likes to remove content from his talk page that he doesn't like. See and here . It's as if he doesn't understand the nature of page history in Misplaced Pages. EncyclopediaUpdaticus (talk) 15:39, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Under the previous account, his Ford article contributions include promoting a paragraph of the article up to section status, based on the fact it was "widely reported" (see edit summary.) -- Zanimum (talk) 18:40, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

• Actually, it was User:Martin Hogbin who opened that section at the village pump. For what it is worth, he called this an "attack article". Geo Swan (talk) 18:31, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

I have created a report on WP:3RRNB about May122013 (talk · contribs)'s behavior on this article. Four reverts equals a violation of 3RR, whether the user wants to admit to it or not. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:33, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Alaney2k (talk) 16:16, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Guys, I don't mean to be disruptive and hope I am not. The 3RR complaint was determined "no violation" so perhaps there is a stronger argument against inclusion than some think. I will likely stop editing again if I can not be of any constructive use here. May122013 (talk) 19:33, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

You certainly are. The article stays to the letter of WP:WELLKNOWN. Allegations have been made. We are not purporting that the video exists or not, only that it has been reported. You are edit warring. Maybe you have not violated the 3RR rule, but you are certainly edit warring. Alaney2k (talk) 19:47, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Toronto Community Housing

Over the past year or so I have been working on this article, editors have complained about the large amount of negative reporting. I don't believe the article is slanted, although there is a fair amount of controversial activities reported. I simply have had not much success on finding sources for several items that do reflect well on him. (Say what you will about that!) His supporters have claimed that Ford has helped out persons in Toronto Community Housing but I've not been able to find any cites. (Although, it might be a lead-in to the firing of the TCH directors, which, again, might be taken as a negative report by his supporters.) It might be due to the private nature, but I'd like to include it if it is true. Frankly, despite all his bluster, as a councillor, he did seem to help out his constituents' individual problems. Does anyone have any sources? Alaney2k (talk) 16:16, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, that was not a 'minor edit'. Oops. Alaney2k (talk) 16:17, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Rob Ford Just Gave a Press Conference; It was on CNN

Those who wish to include everything about this possible hoax or political dirty trick may wish to include the Subject's first detailed response. He said “I do not use crack cocaine....As for a video, I cannot comment on a video that I have not seen, or does not exist.” and said that it is "business as usual in Toronto" and that he wanted to thank the enormous numbers of people who have emailed their support of him. May122013 (talk) 19:48, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Sheesh, if you don't clip it out, it belongs in there, certainly. Need a cite with the text, just waiting for that. Alaney2k (talk) 19:58, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

May122013 (talk) 20:01, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

May122013, given your post I think you quite clearly betrayed a bias and shouldn't be editing the Wiki entry on Rob Ford. Insomuch as the only two possibilities you cite are "possible hoax or political dirty trick", that demonstrates your bias against the Gawker and Star reports which are just as likely (if not more so).  Natty10000 | Natter  20:52, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

I have begun a discussion thread at BLPN here. TFD (talk) 21:35, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

There's already a lengthy discussion at BLPN, here. Echoedmyron (talk) 21:42, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

The earlier posting did not present the disputed edit or the sources used, and was written in a tendentious manner, making it appear that editors were reporting information from a tape which may not even exist, rather than reporting what reliable sources throughout the world have been reporting on an on-going basis. TFD (talk) 21:53, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

You are now engaging in forumshopping at this point -- adding a thread at BLP/N when there was already one, and adding a new thread at AN as well, and adding a thread on an admin's talk page is clearly a desire to override WP:BLPCRIME through posting at enough places that you hope someone will override that admin's decision. The rules are clear - the material may not be re-added until and unless a clear consensus here finds it to be properly added - that is why WP:BLP exists. Cheers. Collect (talk) 10:16, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

We have a section called 'allegations of substance abuse'. They are allegations Ford has denied. By this logic all of those should go too. So if Mr Ford says something is not true, then we delete it , even with massive and in this case, world wide press coverage. Seems to me to be a little over the top. Dbrodbeck (talk) 11:40, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

And Rob Ford has lied trying to duck controversy before ie DUI, arena confrontation, etc. It's rather too early in the game to be excising things based on an equivocated denial of the principal.  Natty10000 | Natter  12:06, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Actual consensus is required for addition of contentious material

This is by policy WP:BLP. Let's see if there is an affirmative consensus that the addition of amterial containing an allegation of a crime is present here. I would note that "denying a crime" is insufficient as grounds for then saying "now we can add the allegations" just like if a politician says "I did not kill George Gnarph" we can not add "Bill Grapgh alleged he say a video of the politician killing Goerge Gnarph." At such time as asctual evidence is available, then we can add charges -- Misplaced Pages is not a newspaper nor a tabloid, and the WP:DEADLINE is clear. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:29, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

This denial being covered by major new agencies throughout the world is not enough? I realize we are not a newspaper, indeed I started watching this page once the Gawker story came out, to be sure stuff was not added. But, now we have a case where everyone and their brother know about this and it is being covered by RSs. I think it deserves a mention. Dbrodbeck (talk) 13:42, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Include. It would seem to me, that whether or not the allegations can be substantiated, that the controversy that resulted, leading to the mayor of North America's 4th largest city having to hold a press conference to explicitly deny that he uses crack cocaine needs to be mentioned. And to include that, coverage of the allegations is required. Said coverage may certainly stress that the claims have not been substantiated. Echoedmyron (talk) 13:45, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

The biased editing/reverting of this article is getting out of hand and is degrading into low Chauvin-type farce. To excise in its entirety any mention of the video would be to render the entry as a whole worthless by virtue of cherry-picking which facts are comforting to supporters of the subject. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but the point of any encyclopedic source (Wiki or what-have-you) is to provide warts-and-all coverage of a given topic not just what its adherents would have recalled. Perhaps the video will turn out to be worthless (if it actually sees the light of day, that is). The point now is less the video than the response by Rob Ford(or lack thereof) to it. Pretending it didn't happen just isn't going to cut it.

I agree with Echoedmyron that the mention stays in with qualifier  Natty10000 | Natter  14:27, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

• While some of those who have argued for exclusion have claimed those who have included coverage of the crack-smoking allegations: hate Ford; have been pushing an anti-Ford agenda; and, most importantly, are significantly out of line with key policiies -- but the record simply doesn't support this. I think Alaney2k, in particular, should be commended for covering this controversial material in a manner that measures up the best standard of the project. I urge those arguing for disclusion to (1) make a greater effort to avoid using straw arguments; (2) make a greater effort to re-read the wikidocuments they cite, because when I have re-read them I found they didn't say what the discluders claimed they said. In particular, no one here has tried to claim that Ford's presence in the recording has been confirmed. Geo Swan (talk) 15:31, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

• Comment Per BLPCRIME this cannot be added to this article, also read WP:BLPGOSSIP. Darkness Shines (talk) 14:31, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Could you please explain what in blpcrime or blpgossip applies to this article - I can find nothing in them. TFD (talk) 17:35, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
• I've full protected the page for two days. Considering the contentiousness of the BLP info, it shouldn't be included unless there is a consensus to include it here. I have no opinion on the merits of this case. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 14:34, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

• WP:BLP is being used to justify removal of this content. However, the policy is quite clear about what to do in situations invloving allegations against public figures: "In the case of public figures, there will be a multitude of reliable published sources, and BLPs should simply document what these sources say. If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well-documented, it belongs in the article – even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it." From my reading, the BLP policy clearly allows mentions of allegations if they are sourced to reliable parties, as they are here. The Interior (Talk) 14:34, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

And the requirement for re-adding contentious claims is not dependent on your argument that the person is notable -- EVERY person with a BLP is "notable" - but that does not mean that contentious claims do not need consensus. We do seem to have quite a bit of "negative material" in this BLP, this claim of a crime still runs afoul of WP:BLP. Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:44, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

In favour of retaining mention. Seconding The Interior's point. Qualified, neutral-stance mention of the incident belongs in the entry. Otherwise, the entry as a whole risks being nothing more than a PR item for the subject. That the subject of the entry has created a number of negative notable situations is not an excuse to eliminate them until/unless there are a comparable number of positive notable entries.  Natty10000 | Natter  14:53, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Collect, all I'm saying is that consensus should be grounded on policy, and in this case, the policy doesn't support the removal of these allegations. As for the state of the bio in general, it's not great - I've been watching it for a couple years now, and have been reverting the worst of the Ford-bashing. But, I think this has been raised above, Mr. Ford generates a remarkable amount of negative press. He's not a air-brushed, P.R.-managed politician, he shoots from the hip. That's part of his allure, but he also pays for it in the press. What we really should be thinking about is if the theoretical authoritative biography of this man, when all is said and done, would include this incident. I think the answer is yes. The Interior (Talk) 14:56, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

• Obviously not Martin Hogbin (talk) 15:02, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Martin, could you kindly explain your rationale at all? It might help others understand your reasoning  Natty10000 | Natter  15:12, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

• Should be mentioned as describe by our policy on the matter. I think the negative content in this article is over the top - However I do think this incident should be mentioned. No need for much - just mentioned in a few sentences while at the same time trimming and incorporation of other negative material into the main body of the article. We are at the point were he is being asked to step down by other city counselors - thus having an affect on real world issues at city hall. Moxy (talk) 15:16, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

• Should Not be added to the article per WP:BLPCRIME, WP:DEADLINE, and WP:BLPGOSSIP. May122013 (talk) 15:32, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

• Neither of the BLP portions you link support removal when multiple, reliable sources are present. Deadline is not policy, but an essay, and regardless is quite nuanced about including current event coverage. BLP asks us to be conservative in our coverage of these types of things, but not that we avoid any mention. Moxy's approach above would be closer to the policy's recommendations. The Interior (Talk) 15:45, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

• Collect, in initiating this section, you implied that WP:BLP included the phrase "affirmative consensus". It doesn't. I am mystified as to what you really meant to say. I urge you to re-read WP:BLP, and if you still think the material doesn't belong, then I urge you to try again -- but this time please be properly specific on the particular passage(s) you think are relevant. Please do not simply make up claims of what you want the policy to say. Geo Swan (talk) 15:43, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
  • • I suggest you read the multiple BLP and BLP/N discussions thereon -- it is up to the person seeking to add the questioned material to gain consensus for such addition. Cheers. Collect (talk) 01:35, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
      • It appears that the consensus of editors is to include it. TFD (talk) 01:41, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
• Should mentioned as per WP:BLP standards. WP:BLP is to protect private individuals from inaccurate content that could be harmful to the individual, not to simply shield individuals from cited content that may look unflattering to them. The allegation is not inaccurate. The allegation has been heavily reported worldwide and arguably the most reported event in this person's life. It is nonsense to be completely blind to this in a biography about this person. As long as the content is properly cited by reliable sources it is permitted per WP:BLP.--Oakshade (talk) 15:54, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
• Should be mentioned, material that was excised should be restored. To borrow much of what I said in the BLPN thread on this issue this morning, removing all of the information on this issue in the article, when it was carefully written and sourced, is ludicrous. This is a major (likely the most major) issue in Ford's mayoralty. It has been thoroughly covered in national and international media, led to a warning letter from Ford's own cabinet, warranted comments from the leader of the federal Liberal party, led to the firing of Ford's chief of staff, led indirectly to Ford's firing as football coach, and so on. The article as it was written before all of the material was excised earlier today was neutrally stating the information as it has been reported in reliable press sources. It presented a balanced view, with Ford's denial included word-for-word. It should be restored to the article. Starswept (talk) 16:04, 25 May 2013 (UTC)Starswept
• Include Has received ongoing coverage in mainstream media throughout the world, the only time Ford has received this sort of attention. TFD (talk) 16:07, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
• (edit conflict) Include with careful wording with attention to what is established and what is alleged, and it will be BLP-compliant, in my view, per WP:WELLKNOWN. The story is well beyond the rumour of a minor crime (and I think the case for WP:BLPCRIME here has been seriously overstated anyway, as Geo Swan notes below). We are currently not serving our readers well by seemingly ignoring this story that has received coverage on a larger scale than anything previously about this mayor. Paul Erik 17:15, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

• include I have been editing this article for over a year now. I have done hours and hours of research on Ford. I have been working to try to present a balanced article on him. If you examine the record of editing on this article, you will see a pattern where ford is reported for doing or saying something controversial and the 'drive-by edits start to happen, negatively and positively. Obviously, we should approach this subject with care and deliberate carefully. I think that mentions should be included here. I believe that to do so is encyclopedic. It will and is a part of the public record for Ford. I have not seen any good intentions on the part of those editors who want it censored. I have been adding non-controversial and notable material about Ford. I worked on moving the controversies into the proper sections. Fighting over reversions is pointless. I propose that we allow a properly minimal amount of content mentioning the allegations, and put full protection on for a week. I believe that it belongs under wp:wellknown, but we are wasting time fighting. It will be difficult to agree on a suitable wording, but the content is important and forever will be part of the public record. And I would challenge those who simply want to censor, to do some research and proper editing on this article and not simply drive-by. Alaney2k (talk) 20:47, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment Do you assert the current article meets NPOV? I suggest that the current article contains enough POV to choke a horse - and your comment that It will be returned to the article on Monday or Tuesday. is an indication of a WP:BATTLEGROUND attitude. Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:51, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

What does WP:BLPCRIME really say, really mean?

WP:BLPCRIME is short enough I am going to include the whole thing. I've numbered the sentences for convenience:

A person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until proven guilty and convicted by a court of law. For people who are relatively unknown, editors must give serious consideration to not including material in any article suggesting that the person has committed, or is accused of committing, a crime unless a conviction is secured. If different judicial proceedings result in seemingly contradictory judgements that do not override each other, refrain from using pithy descriptors or absolutes and instead use more explanatory information.

The press has been careful to say it has not been confirmed Ford is in the recording -- and so have we -- so we are in compliance.

The second sentence states that "people who are relatively unknown" get their privacy protected, but, as been pointed out several times already, Rob Ford is an instance of WP:WELLKNOWN. It says: "If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well-documented, it belongs in the article – even if it is negative..." The extensive commentary the allegations of the recording triggered mean that the allegations is "noteworthy, relevant, and well-documented".

With regard to the third sentence, I don't believe anyone has tried to be pithy...

So, to those who keep claiming BLPCRIME applies, please engage in this discussion in a serious manner. Please show the respect those who argue for inclusion readlly deserve, and read their arguments. Please be specific as to which passages you think apply. Please explain why you think they apply. Geo Swan (talk) 16:15, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Include as this story is highly notable. If this allegation is proved false I am sure the high level of reporting on the event will mean that the story will have a paragraph in this article. If this allegation is proved true I am sure it will and should be noted in this article. There is no way there is any BLP violation here, there are a massive number of respectable sources, the allegations are written in[REDACTED] voice as such and not as facts, the purpose of including the information is to disseminate knowledge that many are currently seeking here not to attack the subject, BLPcrime does not apply, and if you think this is a BLP violation than I'd love to know what you think of William Roache's article or of the thousands of other biography pages which report notable and verifiable allegations. Sepsis II (talk) 17:10, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

User TFD has written above that this is "the only time Ford has received this sort of attention" Would that be an accurate statement? Darkness Shines (talk) 21:59, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

In terms of international coverage, I'd say yes. His election victory in the mayoral race in 2010 would be the only competition, and I don't believe that was covered to any degree outside of Canada. The Interior (Talk) 22:38, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

You can check through google news searches for Australia, New York Times, or other non-Canadian sources. Obviously because of his position, he receives a lot of coverage in Canadian media. TFD (talk) 22:47, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

So he was then relatively unknown other than locally, hence BLPCRIME 2 applies. Darkness Shines (talk) 07:15, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Don't twist his words. Ford was already well-known internationally. Alaney2k (talk) 08:15, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

I assume you mean this in jest, DS. No mayor of Toronto could be "unknown other than locally"; it's one of the most powerful offices in the country. The Interior (Talk) 11:59, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Having smoked crack doesn't make one a criminal so there is no BLPcrime here. All that is going on here is that numerous reliable sources are reporting that he is alleged to have smoked crack. This newstory is notable and should be included here. BLP issues would arise if we stated that Rob is a crack smoker, but we have never done this we have always stayed away from any BLP violations by stating the allegations as such. So far it seems we have a solid consensus that there is no BLP violation in including the material. Sepsis II (talk) 12:10, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Possession of cocaine is a crime in Canada - thus it is absolutely a claim of a crime. I think you should read what is already in the BLP and note that the crime is implicit in secveral sentences in the politically inspired section which might not actually meet the definition of WP:NPOV in any case. The specific allegation of the un-verifiable video is, moreover, a direct accusation of a crime. There is, moreover, a reasonable belief that some editors may be involved in Toronto politics, which is rather an indirect COI at best. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:39, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

There is no allegation that he possesses cocaine, only that he smokes crack which is not a crime. If the video was of him purchasing, selling, or manufacturing crack, or that he possesses crack right now, then there is evidence of a crime. But enough about the legal aspects of drugs as that is all irrelevant to the subject at hand. There is no BLP violation here, perhaps if you can read the policy WP:WELLKNOWN to realize it is appropriate to report notable verifable allegation as allegations, which is what had been done. Oh and WP:Deadline is just a few people's opinion, one I and likely many others disagree with as to have censored out all the information during the time when most readers are seeking that information makes[REDACTED] look useless. Sepsis II (talk) 14:36, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Collect, by your reasoning, no Misplaced Pages article could mention any allegations against people until they were ultimately convicted or died. Hence Nixon's article should not have mentioned Watergate during his lifetime. Maybe that would be a good policy, why don't you suggest it? In the meantime, since it is not policy, your comments are irrelevant. TFD (talk) 18:39, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

As I said no such thing, and you damn well know it, I assume your snark above is simply posturing for no apparent reason. Tell me when you actually wish to discuss anything in a collegial manner. Cheers. Collect (talk) 18:58, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

comment Ford was relatively unknown internationally before this news item.. May122013 (talk) 14:32, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Mayor of one of North America's largest cities = Extremely well known. Nonsense reason to restrict this content in this biography.--Oakshade (talk) 23:34, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

I must say, this comment looks like a resort to splitting hairs in attempt to not have mention of this highly cited content. With this kind of desperation, might you have a conflict of interest with this biography?--Oakshade (talk) 01:44, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

What does WP:GOSSIP really say, really mean?

WP:GOSSIP is short enough I am going to include the whole thing. I've numbered the sentences for convenience:

Avoid repeating gossip. Ask yourself whether the source is reliable; whether the material is being presented as true; and whether, even if true, it is relevant to a disinterested article about the subject. Be wary of sources that use weasel words and that attribute material to anonymous sources. Also beware of feedback loops, in which material in a Misplaced Pages article gets picked up by a source, which is later cited in the Misplaced Pages article to support the original edit.

Since the story is being (1) repeated widely; (2) has triggered extensive new and interesting commentary -- like Slate magazine's comparison of Ford with Diamond Joe Quimby.

With regard to the second sentence -- I suggest the key phrase is "...is relevant to a disinterested article about the subject." As I wrote on BLPN, Ford has never triggered more controversy than over this video.

With regard to the second sentence -- I suggest no one has used weasel words. While the drug dealers are anonymous, the Gawker/TorStar reporters are not anonymous. They are the ones who count, so we are not using anonymous sources.

Clearly feedback loops also doesn't apply. Geo Swan (talk) 18:15, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

• Include For all of the above, and because stating that there is a controversy over the existence of a video, true or not, is not false, is not slanderous, is simply stating known facts as reported from other sources. passes the verifiability test, not sure why there would be any reason not to include it. Previous arguments against BLP don't seem to fit quite right. 208.38.59.161 (talk) 05:19, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Actual consensus

After the two-day protection, actual consensus is overwhelmingly in favor of including this material as per WP:BLP policy with some very detailed analysis of what WP:BLP and its sub-policies like WP:BLPCRIME and WP:GOSSIP are. Three of the four of those who'd prefer no mention have simply labeled WP:BLP and other guidelines without any reasoning as to what exactly in those policies and guidelines restrict this cited content. Consensus has spoken. --Oakshade (talk) 15:07, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Chief of staff

Should mention that Ford has fired his chief of staff, Mark Towhey, for repeatedly asking him to go into rehabilitation therapy. TFD (talk) 15:09, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Except there is now a differing story emerging, that it had to do with how Ford handled his dismissal as football coach of Don Bosco. Various reporters are citing sources saying that either Towhey dissuaded Ford from holding a party at his home for the players, or supposedly from going to the school to remove the equipment he donated. (Here is one example.) I think on that Towhey story inserting a reason for the firing needs to wait until better info emerges. Although I would think that the firing at the height of this crisis is ill-timed and noteworthy on its own. Echoedmyron (talk) 15:17, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

There is no doubt though that Towhey asked him to go into rehabilitation therapy. TFD (talk) 15:58, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Today's Globe says that "four former dealers who spoke with The Globe described Mr. Price as a participant in Doug Ford’s hash business in the 1980s." Ford hired him "director of logistics and operations". TFD (talk) 16:51, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

And so the political season begins in earnest -- the problems with anonymous sources cited by one newspaper are significant. Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:46, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Can you clarify why the use of anonymous sources is a significant problem? I had thought the concern was verifiability of published resources. The Globe & Mail is a published source of information, and not a blog, webpage or disreputable source. 208.38.59.161 (talk) 12:04, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Doug Ford, Jr.

As a sidenote - admins that are watching this page may want to head over to the article for Ford's brother Doug. With the Globe & Mail story today that claims that Doug sold drugs in the 80s, that article will start getting some activity, and indeed already has the first insertion of this... Echoedmyron (talk) 16:05, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Here is a statement from the Globe's editor. TFD (talk) 16:25, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Yep -- they printed an "investigative report" based on anonymous sources -- a report which has not been widely reported as "fact" and is another blatant use of Misplaced Pages for political silly season purposes. Misplaced Pages is not a tabloid - and the assertion that the Ford family is the world's worst drug dealers is a "tabloid" sort of assertion. If and when a police investigation turns up something, then all the political stuff can go into the BLPs. Until then, there is a reasonable doubt as to the veracity of the claims, and so WP:BLP is clear. Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:43, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Wait...we're calling the Globe & Mail a tabloid, now? Until the police have dealt with it, investigative journalism is not a thing anymore? 208.38.59.161 (talk) 12:00, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

This story has now been picked up by the Daily Mail, which among other things says that the Globe reported another brother was 'charged in a drug-related kidnapping' and his sister 'has ties to the KKK and involved drug related violence.' TFD (talk) 00:38, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 26 May 2013

It is requested that an edit be made to the semi-protected article at Rob Ford. (edit · history · last · links · protection log) This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y". The edit may be made by any autoconfirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{ESp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

While I was reading the Rob Ford bio, I came across a couple of glaring errors in the 3rd paragraph of section 2.2 (Toronto Mayoral Election):

1. The vote totals at the beginning of the paragraph appear to be wrong. The Misplaced Pages article "Toronto Mayoral Election, 2010," which has a broken link to the City of Toronto web site's official results, gives the following numbers:

Rob Ford - 383,501 George Smitherman - 289,832 Joe Pantalone - 95,482

2. There is also this statement at the end of the paragraph:

, while 60% of Smitherman's votes came from Wards 27 and 28, the two wards corresponding to the provincial riding he had represented as MPP.

George Smitherman received 17,335 votes in Ward 27 and 12,513 votes in Ward 28. Added together, he got 29,848 votes in those two wards. That's about 10.3% of his total, which is obviously nowhere near 60%. So those clauses should be removed.

88FingersLooie (talk) 04:14, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Agree. The vote totals used in this article were probably preliminary (not all polls counted). And the reference to Smitherman probably referred to the "Downtown 13 wards". TFD (talk) 04:34, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

This article is inexcusably bad--how is it even possible that there is no mention of the crack scandal?

I'm amazed at the fact that the editors of this article have refused to even acknowledge the crack scandal surrounding the mayor. One should be objective enough to simply acknowledge that the controversy exists. No need to take sides or agree with the accusers or the mayor. Just a simple mention of the biggest crisis facing the mayor -- which he himself has acknowledged in the mayoral press conference (Friday, May 24th, 2013), where he specifically responded to the allegations. Frankly, it seems pretty clear that this article has been hijiacked by his supporters, and the story should have a "neutrality disputed" tag. --184.145.28.226 (talk) 04:40, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

It will be returned to the article on Monday or Tuesday. Alaney2k (talk) 08:35, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Oddly enough I would be willing to consider mention of this scandal on the basis that the whole article was rewritten in an encyclopedic manner. WP is not a newspaper or a soapbox, it is intended to be an encyclopedia. At the moment it reads like a tabloid and has far too much text devoted to detail and negative aspects of the subject. Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:35, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Martin, if it strikes you as being like a "tabloid" that might be because the subject has been generating notable issues that would not appear out of place in one. However, the fact of the matter is that they're still notable and (at this stage at least) not worthy of their own separate article. That may change but the simple reality is that they're appropriate in the entry at the moment.  Natty10000 | Natter  14:03, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

It does not matter what the subject has been doing, we are still writing and encyclopedia not a tabloid newspaper. Martin Hogbin (talk) 21:18, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

• I was just told to "drop the stick and stop beating the dead horse" trying to cut back on coverage of a scandal about Robert Clark Young's Misplaced Pages edits, as broken by one reporter in three articles in Salon. I was already to BLPN about it and that seems to be the consensus for coverage, at least in that article. Is there any possibility we could try to have a slightly less inconsistent standard here, and agree that when cbc.ca prints news articles about a major politician, we can cover what they are about? I am not suggesting to give Gawker/The Star full credibility about video we can't see, just cover the story. Wnt (talk)

"Reads like a tabloid"

I agree with Martin Hogbin's description directly above, and this is something more important than the current and latest "controversy" regarding this subject. I just had a look at Bill Clinton 's BLP.

• A: There is no section on controversies
• B: The Lewinsky scandal that led to impeachment has been hived off into its own article
• C: The entire section on "sexual misconduct" is titled "allegations" of sexual misconduct and includes 6 different women, and is smaller than the section some editors wish to put back in this BLP on this non-verifiable video.

I have refrained from being verbose about this current issue regarding the video while others who are in favour of its inclusion have individually put 10 times as many words on this talk page than I have, but now I need to get a bit verbose to try and explain as best I can why I think this BLP needs a complete rewrite, as Martin Hogbin suggests before content about this video is included. I do not think any editor here is biased for or against Ford, maybe there are 1 or 2 but I have not looked for that and am not aware of that. However, this BLP has at least since 2010 attracted lots of premature and overblown negative content, I do not know why. Not only that, there definitely has been very exceptional attention by reliable sources to this subject's negative aspects to the point it has extended to his family. For example, above you'll see a section on Doug Ford's alleged connection to hashish back in the 80s when he was a teenager. This report by the Globe and Mail is perhaps the most ambitious investigative report I have ever seen them do on any topic. They interviewed 10 different people to dig up this story. I was in Toronto in the 1980s. Why do you think, if the story is true, that the hash business they refer to was able to persist for 7 years out in the wide-open in the same location? Because nobody cared about marijuana and hashish use. To illustrate, about 15 years ago Canada came very close to legalizing marijuana for the entire country. The story would not have been news then, and yet we are supposed to believe it is news now? This is another example of how targeted Ford is and largely because he has been an easy target. Can you imagine what kind of cell phone videos could have been made under Bill Clinton's desk in the oval office? (according to published incidents in the Starr report) ? And what about the RS reports about George W. Bush smoking coke at Camp David with his brother Neil (from Neils' wife's divorce papers). I don't even have to look to know that's not in W.'s BLP.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by May122013 (talk • contribs) 13:03, 26 May 2013

In 1998 Canada almost legalized marijuana? Really. Funny I don't remember that, and, the 1980s were not 15 years ago. As for the Globe article of yesterday, you might want to look at the statement by the editor which is linked up the thread a bit. Dbrodbeck (talk) 12:55, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

The Conflict of Interest section

How many of us even know what it is about? Please read it. . It's about Ford using his office stationary to raise $3,150 to help finance a high school football team.That's It ! And he was exonerated in the end.

Look at the size of that section of his BLP.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by May122013 (talk • contribs) 12:49, 26 May 2013

It was a significant matter. He was convicted and ordered removed from office by a superior court judge, although acquitted on appeal. The issue before the court was not alleged misuse of office stationery but speaking and voting about it in council. TFD (talk) 15:00, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

While I agree it needs to be covered, does it need eight paragraphs of text? It could be summarized much more succinctly. (though not anytime soon, if the article remains full-protected.) The Interior (Talk) 15:05, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Agree. One of the problems with articles about people in the news is that sections are updated as more information becomes available, making them read like narratives. It would be better to re-write based on the most recent source, so that it just contained the main points. TFD (talk) 15:40, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Agree this article is far too news based. Martin Hogbin (talk) 21:16, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

An article can be too NEWS BASED? Isn't that the point...? Would you rather it be original research? CaffeinAddict (talk) 19:03, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Because you were able to read the paragraphs on the trial, you are now well-informed enough to make a criticism of the section. Is that not what we are supposed to provide? Misplaced Pages is not paper, we can spare the pixels. Trimming without any purpose but to cut out one side of the issue is simply censorship. I dislike removing content simply because you agree or disagree with the subject. On the news side, the man is the current mayor, there are no books written about the man. We use reliable sources, that's the Wiki policy. Alaney2k (talk) 14:56, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Rewrite needed immediately

The broader issue is that we simply can not allow this BLP to be as overweight as its subject. He's just a guy who is in politics who has far exceeded what anyone ever thought he could do. He won the mayoralty with about a 15% margin, I think. He seems to work exceptionally hard for his constituents, he seems to be brutally honest and transparent in expressing his true opinions, he worked his ass off for that football team for underprivileged young men, he always,always shows up at his job, and he has had about the same level of personal tragedy in his life as the Kennedys. So if the BLP is going to be this bloated, then all of that positive stuff should find its way into the article too....its all been reported.

But, I think the BLP should be rewritten, and trimmed in half, right now, by someone who has not edited the article; ideally an administrator. May122013 (talk) 12:49, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

And this requires a section of its very own instead of your opinion added to the already-existing "Actual consensus is required for addition of contentious material" section.....why? 13:55, 26 May 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Natty10000 (talk • contribs)

Because this section applies to the content of the entire BLP, not just the past week and a half of edits on 1 topic. May122013 (talk) 14:47, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Here is what the City Hall bureau chief of the Toronto Sun wrote under "Mayor Rob Ford's unforgettable legacy" in today's edition: "Ford has spent the last week entangled in that crack cocaine scandal - the biggest one to date to threaten his mayoralty but another in a long line of scandals that are more personal than political. And that plague of personal scandals will likely be what Ford’s legacy will be once his time in office is done...."

Even if we include the positive things, they need to balanced too. Councillors have complained about his constitueny work because as mayor he is supposed to look after the city, not just the constitutents in his former electoral district. They also say that his work as a volunteer coach during office hours neglected his work and he should not have assigned paid city employees to assist him - and of course he was fired from both coaching positions. I do not know what personal tragedies you mean.

TFD (talk) 20:34, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

I think the BLP should be rewritten and trimmed as soon as possible; ideally by an administrator. May122013 (talk) 21:41, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

yes, you said that already. Echoedmyron (talk) 23:35, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Admins are supposed to administer, they're not super-writers. I'm afraid you'll have to propose the good version yourself. Wnt (talk) 01:49, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

I will do it if the other editors wish me to; I just thought it would be better for someone who has not been involved in editing disagreements in this article to give it a go. I'm also sure there are some administrators who can write well ( I never said superbly) May122013 (talk) 03:18, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Your bias is already demonstrated.  Natty10000 | Natter  03:54, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't know why Wnt suggested I do it, I didn't think that would fly. I don't think I'm biased but I sure find Ford's honesty and up-front ness refreshing for a politician; can you imagine any other mayor saying "What I compare bike lanes to is swimming with the sharks. Sooner or later you're going to get bitten.."? That would be left in if I did it, for sure. May122013 (talk) 04:53, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

It is not May that is biased but the article. I came in response to the RfC, I have no knowledge or interest in the subject but it is quite obvious that this article is being used as a soapbox to promote negative opinions of the subject. Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:21, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

To reiterate what I said above, I'd like to see some consistency between how we treat this article and how we treat Robert Clark Young, which I just talked about at BLPN and was told to leave alone. If the negative material in the lead of that article, based on one guy in Salon, is how we do things, then we shouldn't have any trouble quoting CBC to let people know what this person is in the news for. The deleted text I saw could have been better written - basically, you could start with the most respectable sources and describe the story the way they describe it, rather than beginning the story with what Gawker and The Star said - but Misplaced Pages's role shouldn't be to keep well-known things hidden. (N.B. I know nothing about this guy and only read the disputed part, so I can't comment on overall article balance) Wnt (talk) 14:00, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

The Toronto Star is one of the most respected newspapers in Canada. I agree though that when reporting investigative journalism we should use a secondary source for it. That way we are sure that we are only choosing what the rest of the media found to be significant. I would not use Gawker as a source. TFD (talk) 14:27, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Having just read through the article again is not just the volume of negative material but the total volume of insignificant detail. It looks as though a pro vs anti Fort fight is being played out on the pages. I would be happy to try to reduce this, without favouring and 'side' if that is of interest to editors here. Martin Hogbin (talk) 14:49, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Read what the Toronto Sun's City Hall bureau chief said about him, "Ford has spent the last week entangled in that crack cocaine scandal - the biggest one to date to threaten his mayoralty but another in a long line of scandals that are more personal than political. And that plague of personal scandals will likely be what Ford’s legacy will be once his time in office is done...." That is from the main newspaper that backed him for mayor. No political figures are backing him either, except his brother. TFD (talk) 17:16, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

• User:Martin Hogbin repeats, in this section, that he "came in response to the RfC." I left this request on User talk:Martin Hogbin on May 24th. I think if a WP:RfC had been initiated about this article whoever initiated it had an obligation to inform those participating here, of that discussion. Given that whoever started that other discussion failed to do so I think it fell to Hogbin himself to tell us of this other discussion. Not only hasn't he done so, here he is repeating, on May 27th, that he is not biased, and only came here in response to "the RfC". Where is that RfC Martin?
• On May 22nd Martin Hogbin left a brief comment here that said: "*Reduce content There is far to much detail on controversies and policies."
• Seventeen hours later Martin Hogbin initiated a section on WP:Village pump, entitled "Attack articles" -- without informing those participating here that he was characterizing this article as an "attack article", and that he had characterized those of us who thought the crack allegations merited coverage as individuals who had "decide to abandon all WP principles of weight and encyclopedic quality and add as much negative material to the article as possible." Martin Hogbin did not inform the rest of us here that he had initiated that discussion on WP:VP.
• It seems to me that Martin Hogbin, RedPenOfDoom and User:May122013, still haven't offered the specificity the rest of us are entitled to.
• I am not suggesting that Martin Hogbin, RedPenOfDoom and May122013 are acting out of bad faith.
• I am suggesting that the pattern of edits of these three contributors is indistinguishable from TROLLing. They have repeatedly claimed wikidocuments said something other than what they actually said; They have been unwilling or unable to respond to civil questions with the specificity their correspondents are entitled to expect.

I am going to urge Martin Hogbin, RedPenOfDoom and May122013 to take some time to really understand the arguments and counter-arguments already made by those who disagreed with them, and spend a significant effort to address those arguments, specifically, and in a manner that cites what our policies and other wikidocuments actually say, before leaving more comments here. The rest of us should really try our best to understand their points. The rest of us deserve to have them try to understand our points. Geo Swan (talk) 18:57, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Comment: I, for one, would accept,support and appreciate Martin Hogbin's offer to do a rewrite. ( see 2 edits above ) May122013 (talk) 18:35, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Geo, please do not attack other editors. Martin Hogbin (talk) 20:12, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

• Rather than use our value judgements for what should and shouldn't be covered in the article, it's probably best to look at what major news outlet's editorial boards have deemed the major points in his career. Here's CBC's "Rob Ford Timeline" - a good indication of at least the CBC's opinion on what is notable during Ford's mayoral term: Rob Ford Timeline The Interior (Talk) 23:20, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

• Comment: Geo, I also came here via WP:RfC. I followed the process. I offered my opinion. It aligns with the others. Therefore, I am somewhat flabbergasted that you did not include me in the conspiracy. Please correct this! .... Sorry, joke was begging to be made. All right, on a serious note - I'm going to suggest that it's possible we all simply had similar reactions when reading this article as it stands because this article is egregious. It's not about IF this article should be blown away and re-built, it's about HOW. (May, that wasn't me volunteering~!) That's where consensus seems to be, and it's a productive step to discuss during this period of hard protection. EBY (talk) 18:19, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 26 May 2013

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Of the four external links currently listed in the External links, three should be removed. The text of the conflict-of-interest decision is already a ref, so can be removed. The link to the Municipal Conflict of Interest Act is pointy, and places undue emphasis on Ford's COI troubles. The fourth, I'm not sure why it's here at all. The Interior (Talk)

The Interior (Talk) 15:01, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Agreed Dbrodbeck (talk) 15:38, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Agree. The municipal act was probably included because Ford was investigated for violation through over-spending on his campaign. TFD (talk) 15:47, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Agree. May122013 (talk) 21:31, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Done. Paul Erik 21:41, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Full Protection One Week

It is a bit ridiculous that as soon as the protection expires, it instantly starts with reverting again. I've full protected for one week. You need to take this to WP:BLPN and find a resolution of some kind. Once the protection expires, if it goes back to reverting, I will be forced to block instead. As usual, I have no opinion on the merits and won't participate in the discussion. Any admin is free to modify as they see fit without permission, although at note afterwards is appreciated. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 19:08, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

I was sorry to see that it was fully protected again, but given the immediate back-and-forth reverting without first discussing proposed changes on the talk page, you were right to do so. I find it a bit difficult to have discussions split across different pages, and I wondered if people would agree it could be in just one place, either just here on this talk page, or just at BLP/N. I'd suggest here (with a note at BLP/N pointing other editors here), as discussion these past couple of days has been more active here. Paul Erik 19:28, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

I will happily defer to your wisdom on a venue. It might be helpful if someone mediated as well, if you were so inclined. These discussions are always full of good faith, but stray in so many directions that an objective voice at the wheel is often helpful. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 19:34, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, Dennis. Ideally a mediator would be fully neutral and I have already weighed in with an opinion here. That said, I will try to reduce the heat on this page where possible, and I would be glad to edit through the protection where there is a clear consensus for a change (which I have done once already) if there are not objections. Paul Erik 19:48, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

proposed edit

I propose that my edit intended as a middle ground for the story about the video be accepted as reasonable in content and in WEIGHT. IT is the current status of the article, AFAICT. Collect (talk) 19:33, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand this request.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:03, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

I think what Collect wants is for his/her version to be considered the 'stable' or 'reference' version, and any adds to have to be justified. Not really an edit request. Obviously it is not a stable copy as it was made earlier today, and removed considerable content. I did suggest earlier to include the content in a minimal way and ask for a week protection, but I would object to Collect's version as being suitable. Alaney2k (talk) 20:38, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I shouldn't have stopped there. I think what was there previously was suitable. It had the three statements that Ford had on the topic. The only dubious part was about the remarks reported, but even the difference in reports was mentioned. I did an undo on Collect's first chopping, because it made a statement that was not based on cite - that of $200,000 which was not in the report, but was initiated with the crowdfunding. The current paragraph is a bit of a hack and slash. Alaney2k (talk) 20:48, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Regarding the crack cocaine allegations, it should also mention that Gawker reporter John Cook viewed the tape. Right now it only mentions the Toronto Star reporters have viewed it. Cook explains in great detail of its contents. Giving the impression that only the un-named Star reporters viewed it is inaccurate, which of course needs to be corrected per WP:BLP. --Oakshade (talk) 19:49, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

 Declined. The current state of the article does not violate BLP, and this is the disputed material, which you need to work out by discussion not by edit request - whatever happened to templates?--Bbb23 (talk) 20:03, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Consensus above has worked this out. It is overwhelmingly in favor if including the content about the crack cocaine allegations. Right now, the article is inaccurate by claiming that only the Star reporters viewed the tape. This is an unfortunate denial of article accuracy which really should be re-considered. --Oakshade (talk) 20:40, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Bbb23, consensus has not been worked out and Collect 's version is the best compromise we could have in a protected mode, imo. I, for one, do not think there should be any mention at all of these salacious allegations in a BLP at this time, especially since the 90 second cell phone clip, which the entire issue is solely about, seems to have gone missing. May122013 (talk) 22:08, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

May122013, you're just repeating your arguments about deleting all mention of this controversy and declaring consensus was not made which is contradicting reality. This conversation is about accuracy of content that's in the article and you're simply interrupting. --Oakshade (talk) 23:58, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Can you tell me that the current version "deletes all mention of this controversy"? Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:47, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Bbb23, I don't know if you're aware but it was Gawker's John Cook that broke the story and viewed the video in addition to Toronto Star reporters Kevin Donovan and Robyn Doolittle . To leave out the reporter who broke the story is to again render this Wiki entry on the cusp of PR uselessness  Natty10000 | Natter  13:52, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

New article

This story is moving so fast that it needs its own article. The Globe has published an article saying sources have told them that members of the family engaged in dealing drugs and kidnapping and had ties to the Ku Klux Klan. The chief of staff was fired and the press secretary and deputy press secretary resigned. Ford and his brother called the media "maggots", then retracted. The 200K for the video has been raised. A member of Ford's office said that the person who took the video was murdered, and the police confirm they are investigating. The person who said he had the video has disappeared. Some media have used the name "crackgate", while the project on Indiegogo is called "crackerstarter." TFD (talk) 20:09, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

• To be clear, a new article shouldn't be started while this article is protected. If one is started to bypass protection, it would redirected here and the redirect full protected until this issue is solved. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 20:13, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
  • It's difficult to solve when eight out of ten editors want the material mentioned, and two are actively rejecting the consensus. Any ideas? Alaney2k (talk) 20:42, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
    • • (edit conflict) I'm not seeing two editors rejecting the consensus. Even with the reverting that happened today, the crack cocaine video allegations story remained in the article rather than being removed completely. So that's a change from before, a movement towards a compromise. What remains contentious is how much detail to include. Paul Erik 21:00, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
        • Sorry, was thinking of the past week, really. The 8/10 came from the above discussion. If May122013 is now willing to not remove all mention, this is a step forward. Maybe we can all agree now that a mention is warranted by consensus? Alaney2k (talk)
    • If 8 out of ten agree on adding, and all 8 can agree to a specific version, that is exactly a consensus. I would recommend creating an actual version to include, and allow discussion/voting on that specific version. It might have to be changed a few times, but the goal is finding a version that most people agree on. Sometimes, a little formality and structure is helpful to make it very clear there is a consensus for a specific version to be included. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 20:54, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
      • • How would we do that? Is that incubation? Or do you create a sandbox? Alaney2k (talk) 21:16, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
          • Editors can create talkpage sandboxes Talk:Rob Ford/proposal 1, Talk:Rob Ford/proposal 2, Talk:Rob Ford/proposal 3 ... Paul Erik 21:28, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Proposed paragraph #1

"Blah blah blah blah, he did this, or that "

• support Bob 00:00, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
• oppose Alice 00:00, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Like that. Here is fine. You are only talking about a single paragraph or so, right? Individual pages are ok as well, but if it is short, it is easier on one subpage, so they can look at them side by side and add as needed, and change votes. Then ask someone to implement the change and unprotect. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 22:12, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

• • • • • • Paul, the Conflict of Interest section has been also identified as needing trimming. Would it be preferable that I begin a proposed paragraph on that as well or wait until the new crack video section is agreed to ? May122013 (talk) 15:18, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
            • It isn't up to me, but my experience has always been that dealing with one fire is easier than two. It is less confusing here, and the COI issue is likely better done without protection. Once a consensus on this issue is reached, I'm expecting to lift the protection. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 16:51, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Proposed minimal content

Ok. I suggested minimal content. What I suggest is the first part of what was there, earlier today. I had started to work on trimming, but content of the other sections will have to wait, I suppose while we deal with this extraordinary situation.

In May 2013, American gossip web site Gawker, Toronto newspaper The Toronto Star and Toronto radio station CFRB reported that a group of men involved in the Toronto drug trade had attempted to sell a video clip that they claim shows Ford inhaling from a crack pipe. Both Gawker and the Toronto Star claimed to have viewed the video, although they did not agree to purchase it. The Star reporters wrote that they viewed the clip on a smartphone in the backseat of a car on May 3, and noted that while they have "no way to verify the authenticity of the video", it "appears to clearly show Ford in a well-lit room." Both the Gawker and Star accounts alleged that an anti-gay and racist comments were made, although their reports differed.Ford denied the allegations on May 17, calling them, "Absolutely not true." The allegations subsequently received significant media coverage both within Canada and in the United States, including on Jimmy Kimmel Live!, The Daily Show with Jon Stewart, and The Tonight Show with Jay Leno. Gawker started a crowdfunding campaign to raise $200,000 in order to purchase the video and make it publicly available. However, on May 23, it was posted that although the campaign was likely to reach its goal, Gawker had lost touch with the video owner. Gawker subsequently reached its $200,000 goal but as of May 27, 2013, has not released any video recordings.

Oppose: Much too wordy e.g. 1:Both the Gawker and Star accounts alleged that an anti-gay and racist comments were made, although their reports differed.and 2:Everything after "Absolutely not true" May122013 (talk) 15:42, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Support: It's fine as-is. To be tossing away information at this stage is irresponsible. Perhaps in six months or some other span some of the details may turn out to be unnecessary but cross that Rubicon then, not now  Natty10000 | Natter  16:12, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

I think we can leave out Mark Towhey's firing, the resignation of his communication staff, the week of silence, the calling of Toronto reporters as "maggots" for a week or some other reasonable period. My main concern is to provide an encyclopedic mention. The only contentious part of the above, to me, is the "anti-gay and racists comments were made" because the reports differ, although I included "although their reports differed". To allow the above paragraph (wording improvements welcome!) I would give that up. Also, maybe not mentions of the tv shows, but simply "The allegations subsequently received significant media coverage internationally", because I think it did get that. Please provide your feelings in a !poll/straw poll? below: Alaney2k (talk) 22:42, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

• I'm okay with this, except the Kimmel/Leno/Stewart mentions. Making the late night joke scene isn't a major element in this controversy from what I've read. Is is possible to add the refs to your draft? There's the {{Reflist-talk}} to display them. The Interior (Talk) 23:27, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

I pasted from the diff available on the page. I don't know how to get them from the protected page. Alaney2k (talk) 23:56, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

• It must be also described that Gawker reporter John Cook also viewed the tape and his description. Giving the impression that only two un-named Star reporters viewed the video is grossly inaccurate. Accuracy in a BLP situation needs to be as solid as can be.--Oakshade (talk) 00:01, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree. Could you propose a sentence then? It is mentioned above that Gawker viewed it. Alaney2k (talk) 01:04, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Gawker editor John Cook reported that he viewed the video and described that it features Ford holding a clear glass pipe in one hand and a lighter in the other. Cook then says Ford subsequently lights the pipe and inhales.

References

1. Cook, John (May 16, 2013). "For Sale: A Video of Toronto Mayor Rob Ford Smoking Crack Cocaine". Gawker. Retrieved May 27, 2013.
2. staff (May 21, 2013). "Gawker Editor John Cook Details What He Saw On Rob Ford Tape (VIDEO)". Huffington Post. Retrieved May 27, 2013.

--Oakshade (talk) 01:38, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

• I think this is good, but I would suggest that it should be a bit clearer in terms of who broke the story and when. As written, I think it could be initially interpreted as only 3 media sources reporting the story, when what is key is that there were 3 media sources that reported the video was offered to them, and then many other sources reported that. I did like the earlier phrasing that specified the dates the Gawker and Star stories broke, but if we're aiming to be minimalist but still be a bit more specific we could do something like this:

In May 2013, American gossip web site Gawker, Toronto newspaper The Toronto Star, and Toronto radio station CFRB independently reported that they had been approached by a group of men involved in the Toronto drug trade, who attempted to sell them a video clip that purportedly shows Ford inhaling from a crack pipe. The Gawker and the Toronto Star reporters each claimed to have viewed the video on a smartphone in a car in Rexdale, although they did not agree to purchase it. The Gawker and Star accounts both assert that anti-gay and racist comments were also made in the clip, although their reports differed. The allegations have subsequently received significant media coverage throughout Canada, as well as internationally. Ford briefly denied the allegations on May 17, calling them, "Absolutely not true", before issuing a formal statement on May 24. Gawker started a crowdfunding campaign to raise $200,000 in order to purchase the video and make it publicly available. However, on May 23, it was posted that although the campaign was likely to reach its goal, Gawker had lost touch with the video owner. Gawker reached its $200,000 goal on May 27, but has not yet released any video recordings.

Oppose:Too many superfluous details: over half of the content. May122013 (talk) 15:53, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Support: It's fine as-is. To be tossing away information at this stage is irresponsible. Perhaps in six months or some other span some of the details may turn out to be unnecessary but cross that Rubicon then, not now  Natty10000 | Natter  16:12, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Other (fairly minor) changes I made were altering the "authenticity/well-lit room/etc" comment, which I think has always seemed out of place in this paragraph, and clarifying Ford's denial timeline a bit. I do think it will be critical to eventually include the information on Towhey's firing, the resignation of Ford's other senior staff, the letter from the executive committee, and so on, which are a huge part of why this is such a big deal. I would also want to be more specific on when this story broke, the week-long silence, etc, but I agree that we can wait on those things. Starswept (talk) 02:57, 28 May 2013 (UTC)Starswept

I don't think "claimed" is proper for journalists' reports as both the Toronto Star and Gawker are reliable sources per WP:SOURCES. I've never seen "A BBC (or whatever) reporter claimed he witnessed..." anywhere in Misplaced Pages or otherwise when referring to journalist reports and I see no reason to single out such a qualifier of reliable sources for this article alone. --Oakshade (talk) 04:27, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree, claimed is a bit of a weasel word here. The reporters saw a video which showed someone who looked like Ford. Unless we are implying that they are making it up. Dbrodbeck (talk) 11:03, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

UNDUE still has meaning on Misplaced Pages - what we have is that a video was offered for sale, with the only confirmed price being $300,000. The "anti-gay and racist" bit has nothing to do with "substance abuse" and does not belong at all. The opnly viewing asserted was on a smartphone in a car, which makes it hard to tell much at all (I trust that folks here have tried watching movies on their smartphones, of course). The current content:

In May 2013, Gawker said it had been offered a video showing Ford apparently smoking crack cocaine. The Star reporters wrote that they viewed the clip on a smartphone in the backseat of a car on May 3, and noted that they have "no way to verify the authenticity of the video" but that it "appears to clearly show Ford in a well-lit room." Ford denied the allegations on May 17, calling them, "Absolutely not true." On May 23, Gawker posted that it had lost touch with the video owner.

Support Although I feel this entire event has not yet developed into anything other than an unverifiable smear or hoax, I will agree to support Collect's version in order to reach a consensus on this aspect of the BLP. May122013 (talk) 15:47, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

is sufficient and accurate. The reast of the entire section is still UNDUE by the way. And does not use "claim." Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:46, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Oppose The current content minimises a pivotal moment and tossing-off information is ill-advised. Perhaps in six months but certainly not now  Natty10000 | Natter  16:12, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

FWIW, it is quite debatable as to whether "Gawker" meets WP:RS at all, as it is primarily tabloid in nature. The concept of paying $200,000 for a video is, in fact, part of the essence of "tabloid." Collect (talk) 14:23, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Given that it seems that Gawker leading with the story was good enough for the Star (which it appears nobody's disputing meets WP:RS), I'm not sure your rationale for throwing out "debatable"? Natty10000 | Natter  15:04, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

The Gawker mention is the basis for the Star publishing their story. Your wording is incomplete, as CFRB also reported being offered the video. It's not a suitable substitute for the suggested text and the revisions people have suggested. Alaney2k (talk) 15:06, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Gawker, along with its Gawker Media media affiliates like Gizmodo and Jezebel, is a very reliable source that has grown a tremendous journalistic reputation over the years. It was Gawker that investigated and broke the story of the Congressman Chris Lee story which lead to his immediate resignation to name just one of their prominent stories that it has been the source of. Suddenly attempting to claim Gawker is not a reliable source is just splitting hairs and looking like desperation to not have content on this controversy. --Oakshade (talk) 15:10, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Oakshade and Alaney2k . Would you please identify specifically what there is about Collect's version (below) that you have a problem with? I agree with him/her that his version is sufficient, more concise and much more accurate. Gawker is not a very reliable source in my opinion nor in the opinion of many other editors. Also, Oakshade, your ad hominem characterizations like "desperation" are obviously combative and unhelpful. Please stop it. May122013 (talk) 15:37, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

:In May 2013, Gawker said it had been offered a video showing Ford apparently smoking crack cocaine. The Star reporters wrote that they viewed the clip on a smartphone in the backseat of a car on May 3, and noted that they have "no way to verify the authenticity of the video" but that it "appears to clearly show Ford in a well-lit room." Ford denied the allegations on May 17, calling them, "Absolutely not true." On May 23, Gawker posted that it had lost touch with the video owner.[138

Well, for one thing, I think it is essential to note that CFRB was also offered the video. CFRB is not a gossip site and the Star is tainted in some persons' minds. (E.g. if the Toronto Sun had made the report, things would have been quite different) I think the jump from Gawker to 'The Star reporters' is too terse and poor writing. I think it's important to give Ford the final words (to this point) on the topic. As serious as the comments reported are, the main point is that there was drug abuse, so the comments do not have to be mentioned at this point. Neither report had a word-for-word report on the dialog. You can't mention the viewing in the car without mentioning the well-lit room, so maybe we just go with 'using crack cocaine'. I also think the crowdfunding is essential. It is an extraordinary situation. Secondly, mentioning that Gawker lost touch with the video owner only makes sense in the context of the crowdfunding. I am working on a compromise text right now. I'll post it soon. Alaney2k (talk) 16:11, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

How's this:

In May 2013, American gossip web site Gawker, Toronto newspaper The Toronto Star, and Toronto radio station CFRB independently reported that they had been approached to purchase a video clip that purportedly shows Ford using crack cocaine. Gawker and the Toronto Star identified the sellers as members of the drug trade in Toronto and both reported having viewed the video. Gawker offered $15,000 for the video and was turned down, but raised $200,000 over the internet in an attempt to purchase it. The Star and CFRB did not offer to purchase the video. The allegations were widely reported in the media in Canada and internationally, including late-night talk shows in the United States. Ford commented on the allegations on three occasions: first calling them, "Absolutely not true", in a statement: "I do not use crack cocaine. I am not a crack addict" and on radio: "There's no video."

Is that too minimal? Alaney2k (talk) 17:18, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

I have cites for it all. Alaney2k (talk) 17:21, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Support I'd change "a video clip that purportedly shows Ford" to "video recording that reportedly shows Ford". Otherwise, I'd say good to go  Natty10000 | Natter  17:34, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

comment: Thanks, Alaney2k, I can support this if you would consider removing the 3 sentences in the middle , beginning with "Gawker offered" and ending with "United States". I can't see that the aspects covered in those 3 sentences are notable at this time. May122013 (talk) 19:19, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Could you explain how it is you find them not notable? I'm not sure I fathom your logic  Natty10000 | Natter  19:50, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Indeed, I think what is proposed is fine. Dbrodbeck (talk) 19:54, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

It must be shown that something is notable enough to go in; not that its not notable enough to stay out, so please let us see your logic as to:

• Gawker offered $15,000 for the video and was turned down, but raised $200,000 over the internet in an attempt to purchase it.

Why is this notable to the Rob Ford BLP?

• The Star and CFRB did not offer to purchase the video.

Why is this notable to the Rob Ford BLP?

• The allegations were widely reported in the media in Canada and internationally, including late-night talk shows in the United States.

Why is this notable to the Rob Ford BLP? May122013 (talk) 20:53, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Answer: Because this is about Rob Ford. The first two sentences provide context about the opening statement that these organizations were approached to purchase the purported video, and answer the natural question, "if they were offered the chance to purchase the video, then what happened?" Similarly, the third sentence indicates some of the impact that the emergence of the news about this brought. I really can't imagine what you see wrong with any of these three sentences. Echoedmyron (talk) 21:00, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

May, I can see your point, if I accept your premise that the article can only be about Ford. But I do think we need some context like Echoedmyron suggests to finish off the report of the "shopping" of the video. All I could suggest for the two sentences is to leave out the $ details. "The dealers turned down Gawker's offer for the video, while CFRB and the Star declined to offer any money for the video." As for the third sentence, I accept that it of itself is not complete. It probably needs something to connect it to Ford's reputation or to the reporting of past allegations. But then, it has been cut down. Mentions on the late-night talk shows indicate a level of raised notability Ford has now, compared to the past. It might be better as an opening sentence in another paragraph. So I don't object to leaving it out at this time. The mention of it may fit better in the Media section, in a paragraph about reporting about Ford and the notability he has gained in the media through his controversial statements and behaviours. But I think others need to weigh in. There may be a better way to tie this together. Such as connecting the amount of exposure of Ford to the raising of the $200,000. Alaney2k (talk) 21:40, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Gawker as a reliable source

Gawker has just unqualified itself as a Reliable Source if it ever was one, and lost any credibility it might have had as its now blaming Indiegogo, sayng it may hold onto the money indefinitely etc.. Please have a look at its latest "news" about this cell phone video.

"I was busy fielding phone calls while trying to steer my young children away from a very hot grill without spilling my beer."

"....the Indiegogo web site is not cooperating" "You won't hear anything more from us about our attempts to get the video for some time."

"We haven't selected an institution yet." (for Gawker to hand over the money to)

In order to save time, lets agree right now not to use Gawker as a RS for this BLP. May122013 (talk) 16:18, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Oppose That isn't the article cited for this entry and as such, is moot. If you have issues with the original reporting, identify the shortcomings.  Natty10000 | Natter  16:32, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Oppose Wow, I honestly don't understand how any of this makes Gawker a non RS. Dbrodbeck (talk) 16:41, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

• Comment There have been many discussions about alternative media at RSN and I do not have an opinion about whether Gawker is rs. However, I think that the relevant policy is weight. We should not use investigative journalism as a source, and instead use secondary sources that report what the journalists say. Also, Toronto has extensive media that are reliable sources that should be used, The Star, the Globe, the Sun, the National Post, and CBC, CTV, Global and City. Gawker of course is part of the story and should be mentioned. But there is nothing that has been reported in Gawker or the Star or Globe investigative journalism reports that have not been mentioned by other media that belongs in the article. TFD (talk) 16:51, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

• I think all this demonstrates the importance of covering the hoax/scandal. Please, look beyond the simple question of whether the accusation was true (which I strongly doubt) and consider the real world effects - the effect on the politician's numbers, the firing of a staff person (if that is in fact caused by it), the ability of a few people on the web to rustle up $200,000 for a charity of their kickbackchoice by claiming to have seen a videotape... these are real world phenomena worth covering somewhere on Misplaced Pages. Wnt (talk) 16:57, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
  • According to The Star, a new poll "hasn’t changed Mayor Rob Ford’s election prospects — he’d still lose...." TFD (talk) 17:52, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

• Since many other RSs have covered the issue I'd be more comfortable leaving Gawker's involvement out of the BLP entirely until the disposition of the money they raised is determined. The crowdfunding aspect could be included right now in Crowd funding and Gawker's involvement could be included in Gawker. Would that be acceptable at this stage? May122013 (talk) 19:09, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose, obviously - May122013, you just keep splitting hairs trying anything to not have content about this allegation in this article. Gawker having some kind of dispute with Indiegogo (if there is any) has nothing to do with the reporting on this or any story. May122013, can you please inform us if you have a conflict of interest with this article topic? --Oakshade (talk) 22:10, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

No conflict at all; can you please inform us if you are under 14 years old ? May122013 (talk) 03:04, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Indeed, if you read the Gawker post there is no dispute with Indiegogo. The idea that because a writer mentions that he was trying to keep his kid from burning himself makes Gawker not an RS is completely and totally bizarre. Dbrodbeck (talk) 22:27, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

I doubt it May122013 has any COI. His previous contributions have included arguing to add evidence that Obama was not born in the U.S. and that his autobiography was written by Bill Ayers, and arguing for inclusion of salacious details contained in the false sexual assault allegations made against the former director of the IMF. TFD (talk) 22:35, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

A couple of days ago I was suspicious that May122013 was just trolling in here, but wow, that is some irresponsible editing to put it mildly. It does sound like he's demonstrated a heavy right wing POV which might explain his vigorous attempts to remove any mention of this controversy from this article. --Oakshade (talk) 22:50, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose - For the purposes of this article, we are only reporting that Gawker has made allegations as one media outlet. We are not repeating that Ford smokes crack, based on Gawker. Following WP:WELLKNOWN. Sometimes I think I feel like we are emulating US federal politics a little too much with procedural bantings. Alaney2k (talk) 23:01, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 28 May 2013

Please add the following to end of the health paragraph in the 'Personal life' section. ("Ford has had various health issues") I assume the following is not controversial:

In July 2009, Ford was hospitalized for emergency surgery to remove a tumour on his appendix.

I am still looking up information about the BMI categorization for Ford's weight. That's the basis for this paragraph and his health concerns, but the first added content was uncited. (It's still there, but commented out) Alaney2k (talk) 18:53, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure how noteworthy this appendix thing is, it sounds rather run of the mill, like a root canal or something. Unless a case can be made that such a condition is linked to other potential health issues that can affect his performance (which woulspd make it noteworthy) I'd skip it. Echoedmyron (talk) 00:33, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Minor corrections required

Personal Life: 5th paragraph "After Ford Sr.'s death, Rob has maintained political connections with the provincial PC party and the federal Conservative Parties." Should read, in part, "federal Conservative Party."

Political Career: City Councillor: 1st paragraph: "Ford served three terms as city councillor from 2000 until the end of 2011." Should read, in part, "from 2000 until October 2010." (He became Mayor in 2010. This would agree with the information in the biobox at the top of the page.)

Hurdingkatz (talk) 20:20, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

The source for Ford and the PCs says, "The mayor is a staunch member of the Progressive Conservative party but some among his strongest supporters would appear to be Liberals." The source that he has "maintained political connection" with the Conservative Party is a picture of him with the Prime Minister. I imagine he was a PC when his father was an MPP, but there is little to indicate he is member now. Also, the article should point out that his supporters included Liberals and that many Conservatives and Progressive Conservatives supported his main opponent.

I agree though that his term as councillor ended in 2010.

TFD (talk) 21:40, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

1. Globe and Mail staff (July 14, 2009). "Councillor expected to recover after surgery". The Globe and Mail. Toronto, ON. p. A8.

• Misplaced Pages articles that use Canadian English
• Biography articles of living people
• All unassessed articles
• C-Class biography articles
• C-Class biography (politics and government) articles
• Unknown-importance biography (politics and government) articles
• Politics and government work group articles
• WikiProject Biography articles
• C-Class Canada-related articles
• Low-importance Canada-related articles
• C-Class Toronto articles
• Mid-importance Toronto articles
• All WikiProject Canada pages
• C-Class politics articles
• Unknown-importance politics articles
• WikiProject Politics articles
• Old requests for peer review
• Misplaced Pages requests for comment
• Misplaced Pages semi-protected edit requests
• Misplaced Pages edit requests possibly using incorrect templates