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Revision as of 18:23, 25 June 2013

Biography C‑class

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Skepticism C‑class Mid‑importance

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Discussion

Hello, hello... I'm going to give it go on updating this page a bit.. Cap020570 (talk) 14:00, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Welcome! The article needs some reliable secondary sources. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 22:38, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Well, I've got my googles out and found some good background links and a few interviews and some speeches he's done. It'll take me a bit, but I'll get it done. Cap020570 (talk) 03:15, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Keithbob and others. Cap020570 is going to be working on this page "off-line" for the foreseeable future. So their edits will not appear on this page. It is all happening on a user page. Please continue posting URL's and suggestions here for Cap. We are hoping editors do not edit the live page for Gorski in the mean time. We are planning on releasing a new re-written page with major changes and improvement for a DYK. Our goal is to improve the page 5x's what it is now, which is the only way the page can become a DYK. Also Cap will only have 5 days once they post the re-write to make it into a DYK. It is very helpful for people to post here on talk, then Cap can include it in the re-write. Hope this is okay with everyone.Sgerbic (talk) 05:02, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

while I'm working 'off-line' on this page I did change 'assistant' to 'associate' professor, this is the correct title according to Gorski and the SBM profile, the Wayne State profile is wrong. I will be looking into sending WS a message to correct this. Cap020570 (talk) 13:54, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Sorry but I did not see this post until just now and I have made many changes to the article. I have also added a notability tag since my searches of subscription news sources like High Beam yielded only two very minor mentions of the subject. So far I see no notability but look forward to other editors providing reliable sources here in the article. I also don't see the value of a new inexperience editor working off line on a new version of the article. This is not how WP works. We don't hold up progress while someone works on a project on their personal computer. If reliable sources are there fine, lets add them and their appropriate content as they become available. Best, -- — Keithbob • Talk • 00:00, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm new and meant that I was getting together links and information and working out what I wanted to say before I entered it into a section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cap020570 (talk • contribs) 13:44, 15 June 2013 (UTC) And it's totally my bad that I let stuff sit for so long, this won't be happening again. :) Cap020570 (talk) 13:49, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Hi Capo, thanks for your contributions. There are some formatting errors which I'm going to clean up. I understand it takes time to learn WP's formatting so I'm not faulting you for that but if you could please try to avoid adding duplicate info that would be helpful. Thanks. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 14:04, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

I had meant to remove the 'education' part since I felt that the 'professional background' was more filled out, you actually deleted that before I could remove the 'education' part. Cap020570 (talk) 14:11, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

No, that's wrong and I've reverted your removal of the education section. I don't mind you adding content but you are destroying the format of the article and I can't stand by while you do that. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 14:31, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

I've spent a lot of time cleaning up the format of this article. I appreciate your addition of sourced content but do not reformat this article without discussion on the talk page. Please READ the article and if something is missing add it to the appropriate section being careful no to damage the work already done. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 14:35, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

I still have some information I want to add from interviews, and possibly a 'controversy' section when there was a group of people trying to get him fired from his position, but there is only blog posts about it, so I'm not sure. I think it could be relevant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cap020570 (talk • contribs) 15:55, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Notability

Per WP:ACADEMIC, the subject's notability is established by Criterion 1 and 4, having made significant impact in the field of oncology with publications that are heavily cited by other authors in the field (the subject's paper on blocking vascular endothelial growth factor stress responses has been cited in more than 700 other publications in this field, for instance). The subject has also been named director of a medical treatment center.

I suspect that if the original good-faith contributions of the editor who began this article had not relied heavily on blog citations, the subject's notability per WP:BIO would be less obscured, but per WP:ACADEMIC I am removing the notability tag. Nevertheless, I would like to see the reliance on blog sources reduced further, and look forward to what Cap020570 is able to add. I have supplemented the article with additional sources, and will assist in maintaining formatting as the article is improved. Keithbob, thanks for helping to clean up this article, and keeping the formatting manageable. Nmillerche (talk) 17:51, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Sorry but I still dispute the subject's notability and I've replaced the tag. You are saying he meets criteria #1 and #4 of WP:PROF

1 says: The person's research has made significant impact in their scholarly discipline, broadly construed, as demonstrated by independent reliable sources.

Where are the independent reliable sources that say that Gorski has made a "signficant impact" in his scholarly discipline?

4 says: The person's academic work has made a significant impact in the area of higher education, affecting a substantial number of academic institutions.

So far I don't see even the slightest indication that Gorski has made a "a significant impact in the area of higher education, affecting a substantial number of academic institutions." If you have independent sources that say this, please provide them. Thanks.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 00:31, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Just curious if you've attempted to look at how many other researchers cite Gorski's published work on antitumor therapies, which are listed but underrepresented in this article? I'm attempting to assume good faith, especially after all the time you've put into this article, but it seems to me largely an effort to develop a rationale for its deletion. I apologize if I misunderstand, but if that is the case, developing material on the subject's research career would seem a more fruitful effort in my opinion. Thanks. Nmillerche (talk) 00:45, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, please assume good faith. I have spent hours cleaning up after other editors, reformatting, improving citations etc. I've also added most of the secondary sources in the article including one citing Gorski's award. I am trying to create an article that meets WP guidelines. What is it you are trying to do? Meanwhile, is there something in WP:PROF that defines notabilty as the number of times a paper is cited? Sorry but I didn't see it.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 00:55, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

My goal in this case is going to be to try and improve the article in a way that reflects the contributions that I think make the subject notable. The article as it was originally created seemed to be a grouping of blog sources, and tied more heavily to his non-professional activities, and that's fine for documenting those (the documenting, not the blog-reliance), as he's drawn both support and criticism on that front, and I think Cap did a lot to expand that.

I see better potential for this article on the research side, though I think we differ on that point. I probably didn't state myself well; I didn't mean to imply that shear number of citations of a paper equal the definition of notability, and I suspect you misread me on that. However, I think context and impact matter. Just having a list of publications doesn't communicate that impact on its own. I understand if your interest in this article is more... regulatory, and less about expanding on documentation of research contributions. What I am "trying to do" is improve the article while still meeting WP guidelines as I read them. Not identical, but (I hope) also not opposing. Nmillerche (talk) 01:34, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

If you are saying that you want to develop the article further based on a neutral representation of reliable secondary sources as defined by WP:RS then I think we have the same goal.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 17:45, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Notablility part II: Sources

Furthermore the sources in the article show no significant notability for Gorski and the article appears to be a "vanity BLP" which relies primarily on Gorski's employers or websites with which he is a writer or editor. The article has only a few secondary sources and those secondary sources give him only a minor, one sentence mention. Here's a break down of the current sources:

1. Wayne State Univ website—Gorski’s employer, unknown author, possibly written by Gorski
2. BAK Cancer Institute website—Gorski’s employer, unknown author, possibly written by Gorski
3. Respectul Insolence blog (cited in two places)—written by Gorski
4. Science Based Medicine blog—Gorski is managing editor of this web site
5. PR News—Press release from Gorski’s employer BAK Cancer Institute
6. Daily News Egypt (cited twice)—Good source but only one sentence on Gorski
7. Wayne State University website—Gorski’s employer
8. BAK Cancer Institute website-- Gorski’s employer
9. Wayne State University website-- Gorski’s employer
10. Institute for Science in Medicine—Gorski is Founding Fellow and on Board of Directors
11. University of Medicine and Dentristy of NJ— A mediocre secondary source reporting an award he recvd
12. Science Based Medicine website—Gorski is managing editor of this web site
13. YouTube video hosted by the James Randi Foundation—Video of Gorski at The Amazing Conf 2012
14. For Good Reason—Interview a non-notable podcast website hosted by the president of the James Randi Educational Foundation
15. WPRR 1680 AM Radio website— Interview of Gorski at a non-notable, 10,000 watt, local radio station
16. Utne Reader—A reliable source but Gorski is mentioned in only a single sentence of this 12 page article. --(an “infiltration of quackademic medicine,” blogged David Gorski, a surgical oncologist at Wayne State University and one of the more prickly anti-alternative-medicine warriors, in despair).

-- — Keithbob • Talk • 00:47, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

This may support his notability. Gorski appeared in a symposium for The Lorne Trottier Public Science Symposium Series of the McGill University: Drs. Ben Goldacre, David Gorski and Michael Shermer on the threat of Pseudoscience. The introductory information for this states his contributions to the Science Based Medicine Blog have a world wide following. This statement and his appearance in the Trottier Symposium seem to support notability and come from a reliable source. The event was reviewed in The McGill Daily. He was an invited speaker at Michigan State University's DO-PhD Seminar Program which aims to “to introduce DO-PhD Students to exceptional physician-scientists and translational research both from Michigan State university and from other distinguished academic institutions.” He was chosen to contribute his views to an article on Medscape about alternative medicine What to Do When a Patient Wants 'Alternative' Medicine.

The Institute for Science in Medicine has multiple Fellows who are notable or major players in notable organizations, it seems to me that being a Founding Fellow supports his notability.

The extent to which an author's articles are cited in other articles may not be spelled out in the WP:PROF guideline but it seems to meet the spirit and meaning of WP:PROF criteria 1. Articles citing the author's work meet WP's highest standard for independent reliable sources, they are peer reviewed journals. Citation in an article is a direct reference to the contribution of the original article, this is precisely what a citation is. The number of articles citing an author is a demonstration of the impact in the discipline. Note the criteria states, “broadly construed”. It would be going beyond broadly construed to pick apart the particular citations in each article, however to do so with 700 plus articles you would find the specific contributions and their significance. Please also see Misplaced Pages:ACADEMIC#Specific_criteria_notes.

It seems most of the references you have a problem with are acceptable per Misplaced Pages:RS#Self-published_and_questionable_sources_as_sources_on_themselves with the exception of item 5. I agree that additional secondary sources would be helpful. However once notability has been established through meeting the criteria in WP:ACADEMIC the issue is resolved. The remaining issue would be the quality of the article and its references.MrBill3 (talk) 11:45, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I guess their must be a Gorski fan club or something. I've never seen so many editors grabbing at straws to try and justify the notability of a non-notable surgeon who's hobby or sideline is bashing alternative medicine in his personal blog and at skeptic conferences. I hardly think a promotional brochure that is trying to hype the appearance of one of its guest speakers qualifies as an objective reliable source for establishing notability. Has he ever been on national TV? been the subject of an article in a science or medical magazine? or even in a skeptics magazine? featured in a book on cancer research? has he written any books on skeptics or cancer research that were published by an independent publishing house? These are things that might make him notable. I suggest we dig a bit deeper and see if we can find some sources like these. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 15:35, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Meantime, I've posted on the BLP noticeboard to get some wider input from editors who are experienced in BLP issues. All are welcome to participate in the discussion here.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 15:59, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I guess there must be a Gorski hate club or something. I've never seen an editor who grabs at straws to remove valid sources while relying on those self same resources elsewhere for his own pages. Go figure.Joolzzt (talk) 16:03, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

No, I'm in the follow WP guidelines and policies club. I think we will find our common ground there. Cheers! -- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:08, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

We are all supposed to be in that club, but some of us seem to feel we don't need to justify our changes to others. Editors need to explain what they are doing, especially to people they call 'new' else how can they learn? The 'new' person's page had proper citations etc that followed wiki rules and you haven't explained why you took them out, deleted sections etc etc etc. Your comment 'non-notable surgeon who's hobby or sideline is bashing alternative medicine in his personal blog and at skeptic conferences' seems to confirm you have an extreme non-NPOV view and hints at a POV being behind your edits. Perhaps the page should be left to editors who can update on him from a NPOV? Joolzzt (talk) 16:46, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Let's stick to article content and avoid the personal attacks please. Regarding sources I have already stated in the thread below:

• I didn't remove any reliable sources except two cites to questionable source, Lanyrd.com, which was being used to support a sentence which was not disputed and which was already cited to a better source. I did this per WP:OVERCITE. If you think I've removed any other reliable sources besides those two, then please provide diffs to substantiate your assertion. What I did remove were gratuitous quotes by Gorski which violated WP:UNDUE and which used this BLP as a platform for advocacy.

If there is a particular edit that you have an issue with, please provide a diff and I'd be happy to discuss it. Cheers!-- — Keithbob • Talk • 17:18, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

stub status

I updated the WikiProject Rational Skepticism here on the talk page, but at the bottom of the article is a medical stub. I would assume their requirements are similar to RS. Can that just be removed? Cap020570 (talk) 18:28, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

At this point I suspect it could be removed, with over 600 words of readable prose. EDIT: I have removed the Stub template. Nmillerche (talk) 18:36, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

wikiproject

Gorski is currently in the general 'biography' section, but would he be more relevant here.. http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography/Science_and_academia Cap020570 (talk) 21:58, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Page restructuring

From the looks of today's activity, it appears a large restructuring is still taking place at the moment, and that a large portion of the removed content that was reliably sourced came from articles and/or interviews tied to the subject's skeptical activism. If after the restructuring is complete reliable sources per WP:RS that are not actual BLP violations are still missing, then I'd suggest restoring them, as the subject is also known (among both his supporters and critics) for his skeptical activism.

The subject's research career, impacts of publications on the field of study, etc should still be expanded. I will attempt to contribute more about the subject's professional career, as well. The subject is heavily involved in various areas of skeptical activism, including what he believes to be medical quackery, but also branching into other areas of extraordinary claims, so I am also suggesting a separate section dedicated to "Skeptical activism," as these are separate from his career as a surgeon and oncology researcher. Nmillerche (talk) 00:26, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Nmillerche, I didn't remove any reliable sources except two cites to questionable source, Lanyrd.com, which was being used to support a sentence which was not disputed and which was already cited to a better source. I did this per WP:OVERCITE. If you think I've removed any other reliable sources besides those two, then please provide diffs to substantiate your assertion. What I did remove were gratuitous quotes by Gorski which violated WP:UNDUE and which used this BLP as a platform for advocacy. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 01:23, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

I understand and concur with the WP:OVERCITE justification if the better source is sufficient and the Lanyrd.com is no longer needed. I was referring to the interview statement by Gorski, which would seem to be a reliable source regarding his own position on the ethics of placebos (if one were to consider a particular alternative treatment a placebo). Looking at the quote, though, I'm thinking it might be better used within the context of describing his advocacy activities, rather than being reproduced in its entirety. I don't think its inclusion went so far as to speak in Misplaced Pages's voice, but better context could be used.Nmillerche (talk) 23:36, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I'm not sure what happened here. I would have expected to see some sort of explanation on the talk page before -all- my work was removed. Everything was sourced. If something was wrong why wasn't I at least told what to do to correct it? Cap020570 (talk) 00:30, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Cap, I welcome your contributions but you are a somewhat inexperienced editor and there are many things which you appear to have not yet learned about WP policies and guidelines regarding format and content. That's fine, WP is a learning process for everyone, including me. Its a big place. The changes I made today were all in accordance with WP policies such as WP:BOLD, WP:BLP, WP:RS, WP:QUOTE, WP:IMAGE, WP:EL, WP:UNDUE and others. Most of these I have mentioned in my edit summaries. However, if you have a specific question I'd be happy to discuss and explain any of my edits here on the talk page. Cheers!-- — Keithbob • Talk • 01:06, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

There have been so many changes made in the last week or so that I am having trouble keeping up with everything. Can we slow down the pace of the edits and reach a consensus before more changes are made? Please? Allecher (talk) 01:33, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to re-introduce the section 'skepticism', which I had in at one point and which was removed. It seems like Gorski has the cancer MD/professor career going on and a separate skeptical project. The information that's currently regarding he skeptical contributions will have to be improved. Some of what remained is wrong.Cap020570 (talk) 16:27, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Hi Cap, I don't have a particular objection to a section/subsection called "Skeptic" which discusses notable events in Gorskis career or hobby as a skeptic. But is should not be a section that espouses on Gorski's views. Rather it could/should list notable events such as keynote speaker at a national skeptics conference or founder of a skeptics society or something like that. And of course we need reliable secondary sources like newspapers and magazines. Brochures and event websites, which are primary sources and don't vouch for the notability of such an event. It should be reported reliable secondary sources. The main reason I removed that section title was because WP:IMAGE says that photos: a) should be in their relevant section, b)they should not begin a section on the left, and c) they should fit WITHIN that section. So to make the photos fit I removed the skepticsm heading/subheading. As you add content please read WP:RS and WP:UNDUE if you haven't already as these are important guidelines on WP and the article is already in my opinion a fluff piece regardless of how the notability issue pans out. So please keep these things in mind as we develop the article together. Cheers! -- — Keithbob • Talk • 20:42, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Keithbob, notability issue aside, what do you suggest to help the article to not be a fluff piece? I am aggregating citations and building a summary of research contributions from a university medical library, because it seems to me other people have the "Skeptic" section covered. However, there would seem to be plenty of notable critical reception regarding the subject's advocacy topics (Negative criticism of some the subject's oncological research is more direct in that other researchers simply won't cite or integrate that work into other research). Some of the subject's critical reception is clearly less notable than others, and I don't advocate a separate "Criticism" section as it would seem to go against WP:CRITS, but integrating notable criticism would, in my opinion, take steps to ensure the article does not become simply a platform for advocacy. Nmillerche (talk) 23:36, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Hi Nmillerche and thanks for your invitation to discuss. WP is about collaboration as you well know. I am hopeful that with the new sources that Mr. Bill has discovered the notability issue will be resolved. I haven't seen the sources yet but I am hopeful. Regarding the current list of sources the article relies heavily on sources from Gorski's employers or from blogs that he authors or is managing editor of. Likewise promoters of conferences are also primary sources with limited usage on WP. As you probably know, primary sources are defined as original materials that are close to an event, and are often accounts written by people who are directly involved whether it be Gorski, his employers or the promoters of a conference. Primary sources can be used but they have limited usage on WP and articles. Also, WP:RS says Misplaced Pages articles should be based mainly on reliable secondary sources. So its the undue weight being given to primary and low quality secondary sources that make the current article like a resume and rather fluffy. We could discuss more specific issues if you like but that's a start. Thanks for your civility and willingness to discuss and consider together. I look forward to working with you to develop the article further. Best, -- — Keithbob • Talk • 05:11, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

I've starting working on building up the skeptical content. There is additional work I'll still be adding, and setting up links to other WP pages. Cap020570 (talk) 23:00, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Photos

Just a heads up that WP:IMAGE says that photos: a) should be in their relevant section, b)they should not begin a section on the left, and c) they should fit WITHIN that section. So the photo in the Publications section will need to be moved. Also, I agree with the editor who removed the so called "vacation photo" if others disagree, we can discuss it and gain a consensus. Have a nice weekend everyone! -- — Keithbob • Talk • 20:42, 20 June 2013 (UTC)-- — Keithbob • Talk • 05:12, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Citations to support notability

Newspaper articles

• Szabo, Liz (18-06-2013). "How to guard against a quack". USA Today. Gannett. Retrieved 21-06-2013. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= and |date= (help)
• Gorski, David (07-06-2009). "Is Oprah Winfrey giving us bad medicine?". thestar.com. Toronto: Star Media Group. Retrieved 21-06-2013. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= and |date= (help)
• Taylor, Lesley Ciarula (14-10-2011). "Alternative treatments led to Steve Jobs death, says Harvard researcher". thestar.com. Toronto: Star Media Group. Retrieved 21-06-2013. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= and |date= (help)
• Amarasingam, Amarnath (25-05-2011). "Oprah: High priestess of the New Age". The Washington Post. The Washington Post Company. Retrieved 21-06-2013. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= and |date= (help)

Journal articles that are highly cited

• Gorski, D. H.; Beckett, M. A.; Jaskowiak, N. T.; Calvin, D. P.; Mauceri, H. J.; Salloum, R. M.; Seetharam, S.; Koons, A; Hari, D. M.; Kufe, D. W.; Weichselbaum, R. R. (15-07-1999). "Blockage of the vascular endothelial growth factor stress response increases the antitumor effects of ionizing radiation". Cancer Research. 59. American Association for Cancer Research: 3374. ISSN 1538-7445. PMID 10416597. Retrieved 21-06-2013. {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= and |date= (help) Cited by 949 (PubMed) or 777 (Google Scholar).
• Gorski, D. H.; Mauceri, H. J.; Salloum, R. M.; Gately, S.; Hellman, S.; Beckett, M. A.; Sukhatme, V. P.; Soff, G. A.; Kufe, D. W.; Weichselbaum, R. R. (15-12-1998). "Potentiation of the antitumor effect of ionizing radiation by brief concomitant exposures to angiostatin". Cancer Research. 58. American Association for Cancer Research: 5686. ISSN 1538-7445. PMID 9865723. Retrieved 21-06-2013. {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= and |date= (help) Cited by 118 (PubMed) or 208 (Google Scholar).
• Mauceri, H. J.; Hanna, N. N.; Beckett, M. A.; Gorski, D. H.; Staba, MJ; Stellato, K. A.; Bigelow, K.; Heiman, R.; Gately, S.; Dhanabal, M.; Soff, G. A.; Sukhatme, V. P.; Kufe, D. W.; Weichselbaum, R. R. (16-07-1998). "Combined effects of angiostatin and ionizing radiation in antitumour therapy". Nature. 394. Nature Publishing Group: 287–291. doi:10.1038/28412. ISSN 1476–4687. PMID 9685160. Retrieved 21-06-2013. {{cite journal}}: Check |issn= value (help); Check date values in: |accessdate= and |date= (help) Cited by 128 (PubMed) or 549 (Google Scholar).
• Chen, Y.; Gorski, D. H. (01-02-2008). "Regulation of angiogenesis through a microRNA (miR-130a) that down-regulates antiangiogenic homeobox genes GAX and HOXA5". Blood. 111 (3): 1217–1226. doi:10.1182/blood-2007-07-104133. ISSN 1528-0020. PMID 17957028. Retrieved 21-06-2013. {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= and |date= (help) Cited by 143 (PubMed) or 224 (Google Scholar).

Book Chapter

Gorski, David H.; Mauceri, Helena J.; Wiechselbaum, Ralph R. (4 April 2002). "Chapter 28: Strategies for Combining Gene Therapy with Ionizing Radiation to Improve Antitumor Efficacy". In Gerson, Stanton L.; Lattime, Edmund C. (eds.). Gene Therapy of Cancer: Translational Approaches from Preclinical Studies to Clinical Implementation (2nd ed.). Academic Press. pp. 435–448. ISBN 978-0-08-049136-3. Retrieved 21-06-2013. {{cite book}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)

Gorski is cited in the following books

• Roach, Mary; Folger, Tim (4 October 2011). The Best American Science and Nature Writing 2011: The Best American Series. Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. p. 123. ISBN 978-0-547-67846-7. Retrieved 21-06-2013. {{cite book}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)
• Ward, Philip (1 June 2012). The Book of Common Fallacies: Falsehoods, Misconceptions, Flawed Facts, and Half-Truths That Are Ruining Your Life. Skyhorse Publishing Company, Incorporated. ISBN 978-1-62087-336-6. Retrieved 21-06- 2013. {{cite book}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)
• Davis, Catherine G. (1 January 2012). Alternative Medicine. Twenty-First Century Books. p. 7. ISBN 978-0-7613-8854-8. Retrieved 21-06-2013. {{cite book}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)
• Specter, Michael (29 October 2009). Denialism: How Irrational Thinking Harms the Planet and Threatens Our Lives. Penguin Group US. ISBN 978-1-101-15102-0. Retrieved 21-06-2013. {{cite book}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)
• Berezow, Alex B.; Campbell, Hank (September 2012). Science Left Behind: Feel-Good Fallacies and the Rise of the Anti-Scientific Left. PublicAffairs. ISBN 978-1-61039-165-8. Retrieved 21-06-2013. {{cite book}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)
• Kay, Alison J. (20 November 2012). What If There's Nothing Wrong?. Balboa Press. p. 283. ISBN 978-1-4525-6147-9. Retrieved 21-06-2013. {{cite book}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)

Patent

Inventors: Gorski, David H.; Walsh, Kenneth, Patent: Growth arrest homebox gene, Publication # USRE39219 E1 (Grant), Application # 09/755,320, Publication date; 01-08-2006, Filing date; 05-01-2001, Original assignee; Case Western University.

MrBill3 (talk) 20:30, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

His H-Index appears to be about 19, which is generally fine for academic notability, IRWolfie- (talk) 09:16, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Thank you MrBill for that listing. I'm hoping sources of that caliber will be the primary means by which the rest of the page is developed. I have expanded on the Career section, dropping one secondary source (Daily News Egypt) that wasn't terribly descriptive of the subject's work, and I suspect was initially included to cite a position title.

Keithbob, while I am optimistic that any remaining issues regarding the subject's notability have been resolved, I will take care not to prematurely remove any tags. I was a little unclear whether the matter at hand was the subject's actual notability or the subject's notability as reflected in the developing article. Nmillerche (talk) 12:14, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Nmill, I need a few days to look over the information that Mr. Bill has presented. The four news sources presented at the top of the list are not very impressive since one is written by Gorski and the other three have only a one line mention. However I haven't check the sources below, but I'll look at them and see what they have to offer. I also need some time to go through the Citation Metrics as the one metric I checked only yielded two results for Gorski. I think we are moving in the right direction though and I thank Mr. Bill for all the time he has put in to assemble this information. Thanks for moving forward in a collaborative and patient manner. Best, -- — Keithbob • Talk • 17:36, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

As I mentioned here, I don't think you're using Web of Knowledge correctly, but I'm at a loss to figure out exactly where you went wrong. MastCell  18:23, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Additional References

• Miller, Naseem (16 March 2011) , "Most drug trial results analyzed by FDA hidden from view", Accountability, The Center for Public Integrity
• Whelan, David (9 February 2011), "AOL-Huffington on health: Does Tim Armstrong think vaccines cause Autism?", Forbes.com, Forbes Media
• Husten, Larry (1 April 2013), "The Raging Debate Over The NIH's TACT Chelation Trial", Forbes.com, Forbes Media
• Fahey, Jonathan; Whelan, David (14 January 2010), "In Pictures: Celebs Who Take On Science", Forbes.com, Forbes Media, p. 8 (Bill Maher)
• Miller, Henry I. (21 December 2011), "Can tiny amounts of poison actually be good for you?", Forbes.com, Forbes Media
• Herper, Matthew (31 August 2010), "Bedbugs, Avastin, and a fight at the FDA", Forbes.com, Forbes Media
• Salzberg, Steven (15 February 2010), "Battlefield acupuncture: Pseudoscience for wounded troops", Forbes.com, Forbes Media
• Rosch, Michael (5 January 2010), "Skeptic of the year", The Gotham Skeptic, NYC Skeptics
• Schneider, Lee (30 September 2009), "Snake oil medicine", The Huffington Post
• Munger, Dave (2 September 2009). "Controls for acupuncture studies are improving. Their results are not. How are peer reviewers reacting?". Seed. Seed Media Group. ISSN 1499-0679.
• Bremner, Doug (19 September 2008), "Blogging doctors rock on!", The Huffington Post
• "2007 - 2008 Grantees" (PDF). Pink Press. The Breast Cancer Research Foundation. Winter 2008. p. 8.
• "2008 - 2009 Grantees" (PDF). Pink Press. The Breast Cancer Research Foundation. Winter 2009. p. 9.
• "2009 - 2010 Grantees" (PDF). Pink Press. The Breast Cancer Research Foundation. Winter 2010. p. 8.
• "Our Network – Bios (David H. Gorski, M.D., Ph.D.)". Better Health: smart health commentary. Better Health. 2013.

MrBill3 (talk) 18:52, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

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