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Rashumon

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Rashumon (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Non notable, defunct software. This article (which appears to have been added by the software's author) has no independent sourcing of any kind, so it does not meet the general notability guideline and should be deleted. I've searched and I cannot find any reliable sources to verify the article or it's claims to be 'revolutionary'. MrOllie (talk) 12:11, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

• Keep Well, to begin with, this is not a new article and I am NOT the one who wrote this article originally, just added some further information. There are many sources to backup the notability of this product. This product is considered to be notable because of its ability to handle multi-lingual text on Amiga computers before that was common. Just look at www.aminet.net and other sources for Amiga products. All the sources that follow are independent. Most of them are from the years 1989-1994 and many sources aren't indexed by Google.

  1. Article about Rashumon at Amiga User International(UK)

  2. Amiga Report article

  3. Aminet  (www.aminet.net)

  4. http://leb.net/reader/text/reader.list/v11/n02.v11

  5. An article about the Arabic support added to Rashumon

  6. amigafuture (Germany)

  7. "textfiles" - Amiga software products (among them Rashumon)

  8. OS News

  9. Full text of the Amiga World magazine where Rashumon was reviewed

  10. An article about Rashumon at Enigma Amiga Run, volume 54 page 12, Italy - see also a scan

  11. A review by Sams Harari, editor of "32 Bit" Magazine, November 1991 (Hebrew, plus translation to English)

  12. A review about Rashumon published by Maariv_(newspaper) daily newspaper. Title "Amiga my friend"

You can also view scanned copies of printed articles about this product: To verify the authenticy of the scanned articles, this web site holds all scanned volumes of Amazing Computing and here you can find issues of Amiga World.

  13a. Amiga World - Article about Rashumon
  13b. An article about Rashumon's new version, Amazing Computing 7-Apr-1992
  13c. Another write-up about Rashumon, Amazing Computing 08-Oct-1993
  13d. An article about Rashumon's Desktop Publishing version 1.2D in Amazing Computing Sep-1992
  13e. An article about Rashumon version 2.3 at Amazing Computing, May 1994
  13f. An article published in Germany, Aktuel Magazine
  13g. An article published in Denmark, HiScore Magazine
  13h. An article about Rashumon published at Amiga User International Magazine (UK), 1994
  13i. A news article published by Yedioth Ahronoth, Israel, 1991 (Hebrew with translation into English)
  13j. An article about Rashumon at Enigma Amiga Run, volume 54 page 12, Italy
  13k. Certificate for Rashumon issued by the Israeli Ministry of Education and Calture
  13l. Review about Rashumon published by daily newspaper Maariv_(newspaper) 1991

Author's sources:

  14. Author's own article about the development of Rashumon (plus source code)

  15. An article in Amiga.org user group, by the author

  16. Flickr photo stream of sources and scanned material

Updated Michael.haephrati (talk) 10:01, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I see two indiscriminate product directories, An old usenet post, and a scanned image that is too small to be legible. These are not the multiple, independent sources that we need. - MrOllie (talk) 13:36, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. Aminet is the official site for Amiga software. The write up (that appears too small) is here again:Article about Rashumon There are MANY other resources, most of them unfortunately are printed material but I have asked colleges form the Amiga community to look for such. Please remove the deletion nomination to give us time to provide more references but in my opinion, the sources that are currently will be sufficient to keep this article any how. Just to let you know, the Amiga magazines that mentioned Rashumon were: Amiga World (just added a link to it), and Amazing_Computing. The scanned write-up is from a UK magazine named Amiga Format. (I have the original somewhere). Michael.haephrati (talk) 13:52, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:26, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Software-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:26, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

I have updated my original list of sources and argument as per your comments. --Michael.haephrati (talk) 22:02, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

• Keep Back then bidirectional support and proportional fonts were not features built into the OS and Rashumon had both. I was one of the customers and supporter of Rashumon. It was a product very unique to the Amiga in general and Amiga users in Israel in particular. Agovrin (talk) 05:00, 22 August 2013 (UTC) Washington, USA This template must be substituted.

I have seen here a request which came from another user to vote for this article. I am shocked and would like to ask you to ignore such odd request which causes more damage than good (I reverted it instantly). I think I have provided the necessary sources to back up the value of this article and wouldn't like such vandalism acts to hurt this article. Thanks for your understanding. Michael.haephrati (talk) 14:06, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Amazingly, that exact message was posted to an amiga forum, under your username, so who could have written that improper notice? I wonder... Gaijin42 (talk) 15:07, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• Delete I don't see how the sources (blogs, obscure magazines) and coverage depth meet our WP:RS guidelines to establish notability. OhNoitsJamie 14:39, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
• delete The sources are reliable, and their age/obscurity is irrelevant, but the coverage therein is minimal. in passing blurbs do not count. Gaijin42 (talk) 15:07, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
• Keep This was one of the important milestones in the history of Amiga software, a word-processor that was way ahead of its time in terms of WYSIWYG and Postscript support. I used this software so I can attest to its qualifications. Otherwise I have no connection to this program or its author.Yuvalg9 (talk) 17:06, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Note to closing admin, the above user is involved in sock/meat puppetry and canvassing on this subject per this diff and is the subject of an SPI investigation as a suspected sock/meatsock, along with Agovrin, of Michael.Haephrati. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:12, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Note to closing admin, the above vote should be counted. The user was not proven a sock/meat puppetry (see investigation page), and to the best of my knowledge this is a genuine user (a real person), Yuval Goldstein, known for his involvement in another Amiga project, Photon Paint project. Please count this vote. M. H. 18:45, 24 August 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael.haephrati (talk • contribs)

• Delete - What mentions are out there are trivial and in mostly non-reliable sources. This is fast becoming a meatpuppet/sockpuppet happyfest, too. Tarc (talk) 17:33, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• Delete - none of those sources seem like reliable sources to provide an indication of it's notability. Directory listings, adverts, an interview with the author, download sites etc are not third party reliable sources. Canterbury Tail talk 20:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• Keep - By those sources given by Michael.haephrati above, it seems notable enough. Marko75 (talk) 22:11, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

  Would you mind telling me how you came across this AFD after a seven month absence? - MrOllie (talk) 02:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

MrOllie, you seem to be suspicious and negative to anyone who votes to keep the article. Looks like you have a personal issue here while everyone here is expected to be impartial.Yuvalg9 (talk) 10:52, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

A desire to keep the project free of non-notable subjects and defending deletion discussions against a wave of sock/meatpuppets such as yourself does not mean that Ollie or myself or others have a "personal issue" here. This could be Rashumon or Polandball or Orville. There was no bias towards any of these fan-driven projects, we just point to the simple fact that they do not meet the Misplaced Pages threshold for notability. Tarc (talk) 12:30, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

I am not Rashumon, nor Polandball, nor Orville. My name is Marko Seppänen, not anyone else. I almost take that as personal insult, distrusting me as user Marko75 to not be real. Therefore I will leave this discussion here. Marko75 (talk) 20:11, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

You did not understand a single word that I said. The point was, the claim that MrOllie has a "personal issue" just because he feels this article does not meet this projects notability standards is bullshit. I pointed out some similar deletion discussions in the past where the fans of said topics were passionate, but passion does not make a non-notable thing become notable here. Tarc (talk) 20:16, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Tarc, you should be very careful in accusing accounts of being puppets. You have presented no evidence of such, so there is just as much evidence of such for Marko75 as there is of any of the other accounts voting for deletion of this article. Your accusation against Marko75 of "a wave of sock/meatpuppets such as yourself" and his direct response to this means that he did understand the very words that you said. Please consider more carefully such accusations in the future. Such accusations seems to indicate some sort of pre-bias against this subject or some editor involved in the article. In other words, they bias people against your position. Val42 (talk) 14:49, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Take your "caution" elsewhere, as I dismiss it out of hand. We have piles of "new" editors showing up here who have never edited anywhere else, we have one who votes to keep after 5 months of inactivity, and the cherry on top was thus Yuvalg9 guy screwing up and posting his canvassing notice here, soliciting keep votes from other fanboys off-wiki. You're all quite clearly complicit in gaming and undermining this deletion discussion. If you do not like simple truths pointed out to you, then don't try to pull easily-exposed stunts like this in public. Tarc (talk) 15:43, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Val42 You are perfectly right about that. AFDs typically don't restrict editors from voting even if they don't have any (or have short) editing history. In this case, this debate is semi-protected, so there aren't any sockpuppeteers here for sure, and Yuvalg is a real person. Not a puppet. See the investigation page. If you look at the talk page of the AFD you will find another editor who wasn't allowed to express his opinion. As I said, some Administrators here are too easy on the trigger... M. H. 15:58, 24 August 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael.haephrati (talk • contribs)

• Keep Because of unique features -- Polluks ★ 09:31, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

• Merge into Amiga software. This is probably the best compromise because Misplaced Pages's standards of "what should have its own article" are stricter than its standards of "what should be mentioned" (in another article). I was contacted by Misplaced Pages email about this, and in this case I have interpreted it as a good faith request for help from an editor whose English is not perfect and who might not have understood all the relevant guidelines. By the way, describing a feature as "revolutionary" is probably not NPOV (at best, if you can find a 'reliable source' that said such a thing, you could quote what it said, but the Misplaced Pages text itself should probably be more neutral). The same goes for describing the screen updates as "ultra fast" (maybe it would be more interesting if the article said something about the method that was used for this and exactly how much of a speedup it got over other wordprocessors of the time). WordStar had multiple selections before Rashumon, so multiple selections wasn't original, although it's possible that Rashumon's multiple selections worked a bit differently from Wordstar's; perhaps they worked a bit like GIMP's discontinuous selections? anyway it would probably be necessary to find outside sources that said a feature was useful to others to demonstrate notability (for example, has anyone ever found it useful to search for a word in a specific colour?) I've implemented many features in my own software that I hoped would be really useful to everyone, but in some cases I could be the only one who ever used that feature. Unfortunately, Misplaced Pages is mostly a notebook about what is/was important to the community, not what's actually good. If your software or my software has some feature of amazing value, but nobody else can see it, then that doesn't count on Misplaced Pages. But remember that Misplaced Pages isn't everything! Just because Misplaced Pages doesn't have an article on something, that doesn't mean there's no real value in that thing. Incidentally a while ago I put an essay on my personal website (full of original research and other no-nos) called the “go and argue with them” fallacy which I hope will help us not to get too carried away with making sure this or that reference site says what we want :-) Silas S. Brown (email, talk) 13:26, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Rashumon was published in 1989 and had discontinuous selections and was the only graphic word processor to have that. Anyhow, to follow your lead, I would say that many features such as "searching the word 'tomato' in red and replacing it with 'banana' in yellow" were indeed gimmicks, and same goes with the feature of having the text read out load, but it happens that these two were mentioned and emphasized as unique by the news articles and reviews published about Rashumon, which some of them are brought here. (After decision is made, I will add some of these as references in the article itself). In my opinion, the notability Rashumon has, lays on the multilinguality, as it brought Amiga users the ability to edit text in opposed direction languages (such as Hebrew-English, or Arabic-French), which no other word processor for the Amiga could provide. The Operating System didn't support that, (unlike Any OS these days that embed this functionality), so it required huge custom and low level development. M. H. 16:37, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

• Merge into Amiga productivity software. It would be better in this more-specific page. I was contacted by email because I'm an Amiga user from near its beginning (1985), but haven't used it since a few years after Commodore went bankrupt. However, I have never heard of this software before. Val42 (talk) 14:49, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

I disagree. Being the only word processor that was available for editing documents with multiple and opposed direction languages on the Amiga, and as the sources brought are indeed genuine and reliable (news papers and magazines), Rashumon deserves to keep it's own page (which exists for 3 years already).M. H. 16:02, 24 August 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael.haephrati (talk • contribs)

• Comment Why I think Rashumon deserves it's own separate article. Please look at these examples of news articles from reliable sources:

- A review done by Sems Harari, "32 Bit" Magazine (Hebrew + translation to English)

Quote: "... Rashumon can combine text in two languages properly; each line can be characterize separately based on its main language... A unique graphic word processor for the Amiga computer...".

- A write up by Amiga User International

Quote: "... This seems appropriate as HarmonySoft emphasises multilingual aspect of their program."

- Write With A Twist, published by Amiga World Magazine

Quote: "Want to combine the Greek, Arabic, English and Hebrew languages in one document? The Rashumon, Graphic Word Processor / DTP Publisher can do it" M. H. 17:13, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Comment for what it's worth, I just copied/pasted all those refs into the article (new References section). It needs more work though (maybe by someone more familiar with Amigas than I am; the only Amiga I ever touched was the one that happened to be connected to a piano keyboard in a school music department, and all I did then was save a MIDI file for further work on a PC; I never got any idea about how to do any real work on the Amiga). Silas S. Brown (email, talk) 19:14, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! I arranged these sources and references a bit (cosmetically) but still need to work on it, and will appreciate any help. --M. H. 19:27, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

I have now listed this article on the "rescue list" at WikiProject Article Rescue Squadron as I think there is potential if all these references can be sorted out. Unfortunately I don't have much time to help myself during the time-frame of this deletion discussion. But I would say keep if these refs can be sorted out and we can clearly show what was notable about this piece of software. (In fact, if my reading of Misplaced Pages:Deletion process is correct, the original nominator of the AfD ought to withdraw their nomination if the reason for it goes away.) Silas S. Brown(email, talk) 20:04, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

What does result=keep mean in this comment?

The article has this comment at the top: For administrator use only: {{Old AfD multi|page=Rashumon|date=21 August 2013|result='''keep'''}} OK I understand this is "for administrator use only" but just out of curiosity can someone explain what result=keep means when the AfD is still open? Silas S. Brown (email, talk) 19:04, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

I have done some research and in the AfD template, there are fields like 'date', 'page' ,etc. One of these fields is 'result" and the default value for this field is "keep". --M. H. 19:27, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

• Keep Magazines have written articles about it in the past. Therefore it clearly meets the general notability guidelines. Not all old magazines are archived online. Obviously the Amiga computer system is long dead and gone, so no magazines dedicated to it are still going. Dream Focus 23:44, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
• Keep Messy AFD aside, the sources provided show that it clearly meets WP:GNG: reviewed/discussed in a lot of reliable printed magazines in many languages. Let us remember that notability is not temporary. --cyclopia 08:00, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
• Keep decent coverage for passing general notability threshold. No prejudice against a merging discussion on the article talk page. Cavarrone 08:39, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

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