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4th paragraph of lead

The lead is supposed to be an overview of the article. The fourth paragraph of the lead is a description of Sheldrake's popularity in the new age movement. However, the body of the article does not contain any content regarding such. I recommend that the 4th paragraph be deleted as per WP:LEAD. Thoughts? Annalisa Ventola _{(Talk | Contribs)} 00:24, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Good point, Annalisa Ventola. I suggest we either add a section about New Age reception or delete the mention in the lead. I think the lead is too long as is and support deleting the comment. It's a blurb that contributes little to the following sections. The Cap'n (talk) 00:46, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

It appears that Sheldrake is commonly thought of as a New Age writer, so the bit in the lead was just meant to clear up a common confusion. Considering that many people will just read the lead, if they are there to learn about that cool New Age writer then perhaps they should be informed that he's not so New Agey. In any case that was the rationale; it doesn't matter much to me. vzaak (talk) 00:59, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

His popularity among new age readers can be covered in the section on his books. Whether we just move the content from the lead down, or copy the content from the lead and expand with more detail would be the question. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:12, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm looking at the references and I see one author referring to him as such without explanation, and another author saying that Sheldrake is admired by New Agers but not a New Ager himself. These references are conflicting and don't really provide much to expand on. Unless someone else wants to take a shot at it and provide a section on "Sheldrake the New Ager" to justify mention in the lead, I suggest deletion. However, if there are enough sources to establish Sheldrake as a New Age author - and say something substantial about it - I would certainly be curious to read it. Annalisa Ventola _{(Talk | Contribs)} 01:51, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

The first two refs describe him as a New Age author. The next two refs say that New Agers like him. The penultimate ref clarifies that he's not a New Ager. The conflict is the interesting part. He's called a New Age author, but he's not a New Ager. There's more New Agey stuff to find, such as Alan Sokal referring to "a bizarre New Age idea due to Rupert Sheldrake" .

The New Age bit was moved to the Books section once; it can be moved again, no problem. Or it can be expanded in the body, no problem. But I don't see a good reason to remove this clarification of a common misconception. vzaak (talk) 02:32, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

The new age stuff isn't in the body of the article. Therefore it shouldn't be in the lead. The references are not the body of the article. The new age stuff needs to be in the article, or it needs to be deleted from the lead. I'm in favor of putting it in the article. I prefer a separate section rather than burying it in with other stuff. Lou Sander (talk) 02:48, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

If we're looking for New Age stuff, it's worth looking at "The Physics of Angels" by Matthew Fox and Rupert Sheldrake. One of the Amazon reviews says "this book is a bizarre amalgam of New Age speculation and exploration of the writings of Dionysius the Areopagite, Thomas Aquinas and Hildegard of Bingen" From the small amount I was willing to read it seems like a fair assessment. Dingo1729 (talk) 03:13, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Has anyone here actually read the book? Annalisa Ventola _{(Talk | Contribs)} 03:57, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

This article already establishes Sheldrake as an Anglican. If you're going to establish him instead as New Ager - there really ought to be a clear basis for doing so - keeping in mind that this a WP:BLP, of course. Annalisa Ventola _{(Talk | Contribs)} 04:02, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

The lead formerly said something like: "People call him new age. He disagrees. After some evolution of his religious beliefs, he's an Anglican." I liked that, because it seemed to summarize important stuff about him and his ideas. I didn't check if it was in the body of the article (where it needs to be if it's in the summary/lead). Lou Sander (talk) 04:37, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Is it common for BLP's to pigeon-hole someone into a particular belief system in the lead? Annalisa Ventola _{(Talk | Contribs)} 04:42, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't know. I don't see pigeon-holing here, since he is apparently open about his beliefs. It's like somebody saying "Moe sounds a lot like a Wiccan," and Moe saying "No, I'm a Methodist." Lou Sander (talk) 04:56, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

One doesnt have to be a New Ager to be popular amongst New Ager reading public. Just because one is a New Ager doesnt mean that one is not also Methodist (or Anglican or whatever). But what exactly is the point under discussion for inclusion or removal from the article? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 10:40, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Annalisa Ventola, the point of the New Age sentence is not to establish him as a New Age author. The point is to clear up the fact that although he's called a New Age author, he's not a New Ager. The original wording said "not a New Ager but a committed Anglican", which I thought was better. vzaak (talk) 12:24, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Clarifying the New Age bit

• The purpose of this sentence is to dispel the common misunderstanding that Sheldrake is a New Ager. He is not a New Ager, despite what the New Age movement thinks. This is important to mention somewhere in the article, whether in the lead or not I don't care. In addition, I would rather restore the original wording to make it absolutely clear: "...not a New Ager but a committed Anglican".

• The refs are very clear on this issue. This information is not the least bit controversial or contentious; everyone can agree that clarifying that Sheldrake is not a New Ager is a good thing.

• You can easily find the BBC episode in by googling 'Sheldrake heretic'. The youtube video you will find is likely a copyright violation, which is why no link is given.

vzaak (talk) 14:34, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

It's good that most editors are keen to clarify this, and seem to feel the same way, but we still need to get the sourcing right. What we have is not "very clear", and if you think 28 is OK then you need to re-read the policies on reliable sourcing. The idea of giving an obscure reference because the source used might not be legitimate is as ridiculous as the suggestion that we've given enough of a hint for the reader to find the video on Google if they use the search term that you'd use. Maybe we should include that search engine hint in the ref, and point out that we're not sure we should be quoting this and that's why we're not giving away too many details -? I did actually want to check that information before I commented, but even with a desire to track it down, I don't expect to waste my time trawling through an entire video to find the comment that is supposed to support our content. If we are going to draw reference from broadcast programmes then we need full publication and transmission details, and we need to reference the time-frame of the footage referred to (just like we need to reference the source of quotes by pages in books and not just book titles). There needs to be a rethink of the approach taken towards sourcing on this page, because the silly insistence that some obviously adequate references cannot be allowed is looking very hypocritical set against the argument that other, obviously crappy references, are perfectly fine. Tento2 (talk) 15:34, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

It's the first google hit. New Age is at 19:35 - 20:00. Linking to a copyrighted video would prevent Good Article status per wp:good article criteria. The ref isn't even needed. I see nothing wrong with it myself, but if you don't like it then take it out, no problem. (Obviously it must remain for the paragraph which discusses the broadcast.) That he has New Age followers is not a contentious or controversial matter. In any case, none of this bears on the other references in the article. vzaak (talk) 16:44, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Sheldrake gives a link to this video from his own site where he lists his books and recording (http://www.sheldrake.org/B&R/videostream/) so I would presume the one he links to is legitimately obtained and that we should link to the same source at http://www.nautis.com/2012/03/heretics-of-science-rupert-sheldrake/ rather than the dubious Youtube video. I'll put the details here for reference since no one can edit the page at the moment:

Heretics of Science, episode 3, 'Rupert Sheldrake – Morphogenetic Fields', broadcast 19 July 1994. Runtime 30 mins. Publisher: BBC. Producer: Tony Edwards.

We don't need to give a link to the video if we provide the full publication details, although it is useful for the reader that we do. To be completely covered it would be best to keep this reference separate from the other reference to the same video and quote the remarks given around 19th-20th minute inside the footnote: "In America, Sheldrake found himself attracting disciples from the New Age movement. Morphic resonance appealed to their mystical philosophy of life, which they saw Sheldrake, a scientist, appearing to endorse." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tento2 (talk • contribs) 08:13, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Straw Poll

Please indicate your preference with "Support", "Oppose", "Can live with"

Option 1- Remove from the article the 4th paragraph in the lead (about his following among New Agers)

• oppose fully sourced, reflecting an important aspect of Sheldrakes real world impact. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 10:53, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
• oppose - that is, I oppose a suggestion to remove the comment entirely, though I definitely agree it should be removed from the lede until it is developed in the main body of the article. Tento2 (talk) 11:54, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
• oppose per Tento2, above. Lou Sander (talk) 12:54, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
• support - though I would be fine with the material returning if it becomes a substantial part of the article at a later date (I find it curious that the opposers above are saying the same thing). Annalisa Ventola _{(Talk | Contribs)} 13:49, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

• support - How New Agers view him is irrelevant. Pretty much anyone talking about human potential is seen as a New Ager to new Agers. Tom Butler (talk) 17:02, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
• oppose --Roxy the dog (quack quack) 20:34, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
• support -- Gunther is an appalling source, he is a self-published author, making his opinion irrelevant here, and the source fails WP:RS. Frazier's reference should actually be attributed to Ron Amundson's article "The Hundredth Monkey Phenomenon" which actually comes from the Skeptical Inquirer vol. 9, 1985, 348-356 who mentions Sheldrake in passing, with no sources. There is no indication that Amundson represents the New Age, or that we even no what he means. The use of the passive voice (ie "has been described") suggests the sentence is used as a form of "weasel word" phrase. --Iantresman (talk) 22:21, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
• oppose It's supported and it's important. MilesMoney (talk) 04:35, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
• oppose per TRPoD. Capitalismojo (talk) 15:18, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
• support I don't see how his standing among New Agers is a relevant enough topic or has enough content behind it to justify mentioning in the lead. The segment feels ad-hoc and out of place. The Cap'n (talk) 18:54, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Option 2- Move the 4th paragraph in the lead (about his following among New Agers) to the body of the article as part of the intro under Rupert_Sheldrake#Books

• can live with -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 10:53, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
• oppose - as it stands, its not appropriately sourced. Ref 28 is inadequate and gives no way for the user to verify that what we have stated is correct; and the short comment "although Sheldrake has not endorsed these interpretations" fails to summarise the points the author is making in ref 27, so that needs more attention and development. Tento2 (talk) 11:54, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
• oppose, in general agreement with Tento2. There are many problems with the references in this article, e.g., finding references that only tangentially apply, then using them as hammers to hit Sheldrake with. An example of that is in the one in Rupert_Sheldrake#Books, which slams him on peer review. Peer review doesn't apply to books, as is said in the reference itself. Lou Sander (talk) 13:12, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
• 'oppose as per the comments on inadequate sourcing above. Annalisa Ventola _{(Talk | Contribs)} 13:49, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose, Again, how new Agers view him is irrelevant. Pretty much anyone talking about human potential is seen as a New Ager to new Agers. Tom Butler (talk) 17:07, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
• can live with --Roxy the dog (quack quack) 20:34, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
• can live with It really belongs in the lede, but if we need to move it out to keep the lede small, that's acceptable. MilesMoney (talk) 04:35, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
• supportThis is where the discussion of New Age reception belongs; it's information pertaining to his books, not a section in itself. The Cap'n (talk) 18:54, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Option 3- Copy the 4th paragraph in the lead (about his following among New Agers) to the body of the article as part of the intro under Rupert_Sheldrake#Books and look for more sources to more fully expand this aspect of Sheldrakes impact

• support-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 10:53, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
• support- refs need looking at. I have no idea what ref 28 substantiates because it's impossible to check from the reference information given. I can see that there is more to the issue than a reader would gleam from our content, when checking what the author of ref 27 has to say about the matter. Tento2 (talk) 11:54, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
• oppose, in general agreement with Tento2. Many Refs here are problematic. The material in Paragraph 4 summarizes important stuff about Sheldrake. That stuff needs to appear somewhere in the article, in expanded and properly-referenced form. Just finding more sources won't suffice, particularly if they are tangential, don't apply, etc. Lou Sander (talk) 13:12, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
• oppose - again, if someone can expand this with better sourcing, then it may be relevant to the article, but not as it stands. Annalisa Ventola _{(Talk | Contribs)} 13:49, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose, Again, how new Agers view him is irrelevant. Pretty much anyone talking about human potential is seen as a New Ager to new Agers. Tom Butler (talk) 17:07, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
• support --Roxy the dog (quack quack) 20:34, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
• can live with Prefer the lede. MilesMoney (talk) 04:35, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
• OpposeIf it's already been said in one place it shouldn't be copied in another. It deserves to be said, just under his books, not in the lead. The Cap'n (talk) 18:54, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Option 4 by Barney the barney barney - the new ages stuff should be mentioned - this is referenced and needs mentioning, but I don't think it's important or relevant enough to be in the lead. IMHO it should go with the "origins of morphic resonance" section.

• Support - sounds sensible to me. Annalisa Ventola _{(Talk | Contribs)} 04:23, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
• Weak Oppose -- I think it belongs in the lede but I guess I can live with it elsewhere in the article, if it works better that way. MilesMoney (talk) 04:35, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
• Support I was under the impression that none of the options allowed the content to remain in the lede. Don't feel strongly about where it goes; only that iit needs to come out of the lede and be developed within the article to good article standards Tento2 (talk) 07:19, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
• Support. The fourth paragraph could be moved in its entirety to the end of the "origins of morphic resonance" section. Editors could expand on it there if they think it is important. If and when that section expands, probably it should be summarized in the lead, maybe replacing what is now in paragraph 4. Though WP:AGF is still working for me here, I have a concern that editors might use this opportunity to demean Sheldrake in his BLP, along the lines of "look at these stupid beliefs and the stupid people that hold them, and here is why they are stupid (with references)", or to remove the material unilaterally because "I don't think this stuff is important". All that is avoided if editors discuss their edits before making them. Lou Sander (talk) 13:03, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
• Conditional support - All of what skeptics call "fringe" articles are likely to have a "New Age" following. It is fine to mention it in the body as long as it is not used in an another attempt to make Sheldrake look silly. My support is also on the condition that the subject is not used as another place to pile on with numerous, repetitive references. Tom Butler (talk) 15:15, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
• can live with It seems more logical to place it under the section on his books, but any edits that clean up that lead are A-OK in my book. The Cap'n (talk) 18:54, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

The Cap'n: If one looks at the "origins and philosophy" section, one sees a bunch of Eastern thinking stuff, Jung stuff, etc. I'm thinking that the new age stuff is similar to that, and that all those things belong together. "Origins and philosophy" could do with a better name, IMHO -- maybe something that includes Eastern, new age, etc. Renaming might be part of cleaning it up and expanding it. Lou Sander (talk) 20:42, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

clarifications about why you placed your !votes where you did

• Tom Butler (talk · contribs) - can you clarify "how new Agers view him is irrelevant."? If he was merely spouting his nonsense in his basement he would not be notable. However, he is not merely spouting it in his basement, he is publishing books and living off the lecture tour based on the fact that many many many new agers view him as something they are willing to pay for. Without the new agers= no books about his concept. Without the books about his concept =no reaction from the mainstream academic community that it is nonsense. No reaction from the mainstream community = fail Notability and no article. It seems that the opinions of New Agers are vital in the equations.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:57, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

You are assuming there is a coherent New Age community. There is not. It is more a set of mostly unrelated ideas which come together as the search for personal improvement. Frankly, saying "New Agers support him" only demonstrates a lack of understanding about the culture. Look instead for a broader desire for information about things outside of mainstream thought that is not provided by mainstream academia.

Surly, you have seen the surveys. "Poll: Majority Believe In Ghosts" is just one of them. Search for "believe" in our Media Watch and you will find links to many more such surveys. people buying the books are seeking better understanding. "New Age" is something of a red herring. Tom Butler (talk) 20:18, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

So you again are looking at coverage of his popularity from an alternative framework than what the mainstream coverage of his popularity does.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:32, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

I wasn't originally going to take part, thinking my relative inexperience in how a wiki page comes into being means my opinion wasn't worth much, but then I thought, no, I have as valid an opinion as anybody else. Tom Butler said "You are assuming there is a coherent New Age community. There is not. It is more a set of mostly unrelated ideas which come together as the search for personal improvement." The sceptic community is no more organised than that. --Roxy the dog (quack quack) 20:34, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

we should stay focused on how the sources cover the subject of the article and how we can accurately reflect what the reliable sources present. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:56, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

• One reference is self-published and fails WP:RS. The other reference is from a skeptic and is clearly using "New Age" as a weasel word. --Iantresman (talk) 22:28, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

• I just changed my vote after realizing that I'd written oppose to all three options originally given. Didn't mean to do that, my mistake after cutting and pasting text to make sure I got the formatting right (sorry). To clarify, I'm opposing option 1, which I interpret as meaning that we take the comment out of the article altogether, and not just that we take it out of the lede. (Taking it out of the lede is a no brainer as it breaks the policy on lede content needing to briefly highlight the most important points in the body of the article). I'm opposing option 2 on the assumption that it means simply moving the content but leaving the text as it is. I'm supporting option 3 on the assumption that it means moving the content, but also giving it critical assessment and development, both in terms of what is said (to get the arguments across correctly), and the references used to support it.

I hope I have interpreted the poll options correctly. If I am confused then maybe other's are too. Tento2 (talk) 07:14, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Protest

Tumbleman Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement

Edit wars

(Tom Morris please note.) There have been many very recent edits to the article, some of them extensive. None of them have been discussed here in advance. I believe that some of them would have broad consensus, but they have been reverted. I believe others would only be supported by those who made them, possibly in violation of the the article ownership policy. Unfortunately, they tend to remain in the article. Rather than getting involved in edit wars, or letting the bad edits stand, all edits would best be discussed here before they are put into the article. If your ideas and writing are good, they will have no problem being accepted by other editors. If they are NOT good/accepted, they shouldn't be in the article. Lou Sander (talk) 16:38, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Funny that Lou, I think that the edits without any broad consensus have been reverted, and those recent small changes have been taking things a little more centrally, towards your point of view. Any way, the bad edits have gone, and I would support letting things stand as they are. --Roxy the dog (quack quack) 16:52, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

the only way to mandate that changes go through a pre approval process is to edit war to get the article locked. I wouldnt really recommend that as a strategy. Strong application of WP:BRD might achieve your goals. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:05, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Roxy, it all depends on who is deciding that " the bad edits have gone." For instance, TRPoD deleted a line that would have added balance noting that citations were needed. It would seem less possessive if he-she-it had added the proper citation tag and discussed it here. Tom Butler (talk) 17:10, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

are you stating that editors here are not acutely aware of WP:BURDEN and the need to provide inline citations for all content going into the article? and that in this controversial article about a living person questionable materials should remain in the article and be tagged? I will point you to WP:BLP. I will grant you that in the best of all worlds, I would have followed up that removal with a talk sections stating "I removed X because it was not properly sourced" . However, had I done that for my recent corrections, this talk page would have had an additional 6 sections about minor edits. so i am not sure that is the best of all possible worlds, either.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:26, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

is an absolutely clean cut example of WP:OR - unreferenced, vague, clearly does not summarise the sources, and very much wishful thinking. Please, if we these "others" exist they need to be documented properly. Please provide the references. Barney the barney barney (talk) 17:59, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. --Iantresman (talk) 18:12, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Barney: Your points could possibly be better made if they were made about a proposed edit. All of us could look at them, evaluate them, and respond to them if they merited a response. Lou Sander (talk) 18:15, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Lets just trace the timeline here.

• The article stood as this
• An IP made a BOLD edit.
• Which was REVERTED
• The IP RE-REVERTED and added additional content
• I began making a series of individual edits at the problematic content added by the IP. , etc.
• Barney fully reverted the IP
• Vzaak has made a number of incremental changes

If there is anything specific from the BOLD edit of the IP that you wish to discuss as actually having potential for meeting the content requirements, then please feel free to DISCUSS it. If you have any objections to the incremental edits that Vzaak has made, then you can either REVERT the not so bold changes, and we can DISCUSS, or you can jump right the the DISCUSS.

but discussing edits that I made that were in the article for about one minute and have been undone is probably not going to help the article progress. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:19, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

"some of this is good"

BOLD edit by the IP that was REVERTED and RE-REVERTED under the edit summary "some of this is good" Lou Sander (talk · contribs) re reverted the BOLD edit by the IP with the edit summary "some of this is good" . However he passed over the DISCUSSION portion where there would be consensus gathered about which portions exactly are "good" .

Please identify which portions you think are "good" so that we may discuss. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:25, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

now moot side talk about what the process should have been

First subsection of Books

Due to historical accident, this subsection has two supportive quotes. The Roszak review was originally misapplied to the first book; Roszak actually reviewed the second book (both books were re-issued years later in green covers with "morphic resonance" in the title). After discovering this I fished around for something else to counterbalance Maddox, and found Josephson. However the Roszak review was kept and applied to the second book. Thus this section now depicts a false-balance "controversy", when there isn't actually a controversy. There's a social/public controversy -- thanks in part to Maddox -- but not a scientific one.

The Roszak review is inexplicable; when New Scientist saw themselves quoted on the cover of Sheldrake's book, their reaction was "Did we say that?" and "Eh?". Since this anomalous review is not representative of the reactions from the scientific community, there would seem to be undue weight on it. (Missteps by New "Darwin Was Wrong" Scientist are not without precedent.)

I don't know how to fix this in a non-apparently-contentious way. vzaak (talk) 22:15, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Just leave this here for a day or two and see what people say about it. Lou Sander (talk) 23:39, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

I think we should start by abandoning the cherry picking that Sheldrakes publishers did. Start with Roszak 's summary showing one aspect of the reception at the time of the initial release "" then place that in the context of Back then, Roszak gave Sheldrake the benefit of the doubt. Today, attitudes have hardened and Sheldrake is seen as standing firmly on the wilder shores" . Then got into the fact that the reprint that that has the two quotes picked from Roszak on its cover, and then the New Scientist again with their pointing out that the comments on the jacket are from the original review 20 years earlier. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:14, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

discussion of process

Red: You may have some good points here, but people might not read them when you start by accusing a publisher of cherry picking. If your points are good, they don't need that. Lou Sander (talk) 00:25, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

When the publishers choose to use one review quote on their book cover and use one from 20 years ago on the cover of a book that is supposed to be a "fully revised and updated" version - to call that anything BUT "cherry picking" would be obfuscation of nearly criminal levels. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:37, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Red: You may have some good points here, but people might not read them when you start by accusing a publisher of cherry picking, then go on and on about why it's justified. If your points are good, they don't need that. Lou Sander (talk) 01:02, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

its seeming to me that you are taking every possible opportunity to divert the discussion in every section away from content. is that on purpose? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:39, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Red: No. In this particular small section, I'm trying to let an editor know, politely, that they may have some good points, but that it is hard to get to them when that editor's presentation starts with accusations. The accusations may or may not be accurate, but the act of making them draws attention away from the points the editor is trying to make. Lou Sander (talk) 16:55, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

back to the main topic

Vzaak: I've read your material about the historical accident, but I don't know what you are talking about. There's a lot of history, and a lot of description of your personal thought processes, but for the life of me, I don't know what you are suggesting. It may be something wonderful, but it's just too hard to figure out what it is.

Regarding the "first subsection of books", I can't tell precisely what you are referring to, but I imagine it includes the material headed A New Science of Life and The Presence of the Past. I notice that the material about A New Science of Life contains six lines about the book itself, and eleven lines about a single editorial that was written in response to its publication. Those eleven lines contain fourteen references and four wikilinks, all seeming to be dismissive of Sheldrake's work. I do not see that as balanced coverage from a neutral point of view. Sheldrake has many thoughtful critics; I don't think we need to quote and explain every one of them. Better might be to summarize. Lou Sander (talk) 17:40, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

WP:VALID (yet again) -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:46, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Must our treatment of this living fringe theorist differ from our treatment of his theories?

Let's try to come to consensensus about this topic and how it might apply to this article. David in DC (talk) 02:34, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

i am not sure what you are suggesting here: are you suggesting a straw poll on the oft mentioned "one article about Sheldrake - one article about his theories" split? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 02:45, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Is Sheldrake even notable without his fringe theories? If not, then his biography will be a stub, while all the real meat will be in Wacky fringe theories of Rupert Sheldrake or whatever it's called. MilesMoney (talk) 03:01, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting anything other than what I asked. If the answer to the question "ust our treatment of this living fringe theorist differ from our treatment of his theories?" is no, that will guide the rest of how we structure the article.

If it's yes, that will too.

FWIW, I think the POVFORK idea is a bad one. I think there IS tension between BLP and FRINGE. And I think the solution is to keep the lead, early life and education sections factual, without derogatory comment and the books and public appearances sections replete with sources providing the context that the content of these books and appearances, "morphic resonance", is not science. I also think it might be useful, on a page seeking consensus, to foreswear words like wacky or hogwash. Fringe and psuedoscience convey the same meanings. David in DC (talk) 11:39, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Describing morphic resonance in the lead without including criticism of it would not be in line with WP:NPOV, in particular WP:PSCI (no need to even mention WP:FRINGE here). (Could we please not dramatize this as "derogatory"? It is criticism. You wrote the criticism paragraph in the lead, and I presume you didn't write it for the purpose of being derogatory.) vzaak (talk) 12:38, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

The answer to the vague theoretical question is "All content about every subject must be treated according to policies". Given the eternal sprawl of this talk page I really do not see any possible advantage of initiating yet another theoretical discussion to encourage people to vent yet again their opinions in a forum and format that cannot possibly lead to any real determination of consensus. In all of the endless muck on this page, the only thing that has lead to any actual consensus on article content is the highly organized Talk:Rupert_Sheldrake#Straw_Poll. Any "discussions" that lack form and structure are surely simply going to devolve into yet another time sink and waste of precious pixels. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:51, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I think the focus should be on specific and concrete issues. vzaak (talk) 13:09, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

I agree with vzaak on that. There are some difficulties with accomplishing it on this page. For example, when editor A says "I think we should discuss specific and concrete matter X," editors B, C, or D, or some combination, say "That's a really stupid idea. Don't you know M, or N, or P? And by the way, I think you are really trying to do Q". Lou Sander (talk) 17:05, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

allowing WP:SOUP is part of the problem on this page. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:12, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

David in DC: I believe that what you are trying to do is exactly what you say in the title to this section. I agree with your idea that we shouldn't use nasty words. Maybe it would be useful to seek consensus that Sheldrake is a living fringe theorist (or something like that), and that there is widespread virulent criticism of his ideas among scientists. IMHO, nobody who edits here seems to doubt that. Also IMHO, some editors seem to think that other editors DO doubt it. Further, IMHO, some editors here seem to be weak in the skills of coming to consensus. Getting some sort of basic consensus would help on that end, too. Lou Sander (talk) 17:56, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Some of these responses are regrettable. Others help shed some light. As to vzaak's point, I did indeed write the paragraph in question, which I think is, incrementally, better than what came before. I think the "Note" device does a great job of summarizing the various grounds on which Shaldrake's concept draws criticism.

I'm sad that experienced[REDACTED] editors find the basic question I started this thread with "theoretical." It's not theoretical at all. It's a real-world problem that occurs every time we write about a living person who is not a saint. I agree that articles should be written according to policy. When policies conflict, civil, nuanced editorial judgments must be made.

WP:BLP is a core policy - at the top of the WP:BLP page, it says: "This page documents an English Misplaced Pages policy, a widely accepted standard that all editors should normally follow. Changes made to it should reflect consensus."

WP:Fringe theories is not. at the top of the WP:FRINGE page, it says: This page documents an English Misplaced Pages content guideline. It is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply.

WP:NPOV, like WP:BLP, is a core policy and bears the same top-of-the-page legend as WP:BLP. Skepticism is a point of view.

I do not expect to convince editors who dismiss even the usefulness of the question I've posed. But it does make me dispair about how far we've fallen from an ethic that is supposed to make sure that the dignity of living people should be of paramount importance. It's very hard for me to see how anyone might be misled by an article that seperated the biography of a person from full-throated, sourced criticism of his theories.

I'll repeat, I crafted the paragraph that vzaak says I did, and I think its enough, especially as improved by vzaak's note. But, I think the "conservation of energy" and "perpetual motion" stuff is simply unnecessary to a biographical lede about Rupert Sheldrake. It screams "Not only is his principle notable theory non-science, he also believes in a whole bunch of outre things and really ought to be dismissed as a nut job." And it reflects a level of vehemence that makes this talk page a black mark on wikipedia. David in DC (talk)

^see, your concerns are actually specifically identifiable and actionable. the vague "Must our treatment of this living fringe theorist differ from our treatment of his theories?" is not. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:03, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

WP:PSCI, also known as Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view#Fringe theories and pseudoscience, is a part of WP:NPOV; there's no need to refer to WP:FRINGE in this case. The policy (not guideline) is also common sense, because not mentioning how certain fringe ideas are viewed by the scientific community would have the effect of misinforming readers (even if it's a sin of omission rather than a sin of commission).

For the lead, is the dogma paragraph your only objection? vzaak (talk) 19:58, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't think the nonsense about the perpetual motion machines/conversation of energy belongs in the lead section either. The science as dogma nonsense however does. Barney the barney barney (talk) 20:19, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't disagree, but I don't know of any viable alternatives. If we remove the conservation of energy bit and leave just the "series of dogmas" bit, then it's not clear to the reader what "series of dogmas" really means. Is it the central dogma or what? Mentioning conservation of energy efficiently pinpoints what Sheldrake is getting at. We have but one reaction to Science Set Free from mainstream science -- the brief New Scientist review -- and "woolly credulousness" / "uncritically embracing all kinds of fringe ideas" are not appropriate for the lead. Thus we can't address "series of dogmas" generally, so we have to do it specifically. vzaak (talk) 21:30, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

I agree that the example is a good idea, IRWolfie- (talk) 23:27, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

David in DC "When policies conflict, civil, nuanced editorial judgments must be made." Not all editors are capable of that. Not all editors are even capable of sticking to a subject, or of thinking clearly about things outside their own feelings and beliefs. That used to upset me more than it does now; implementing THIS was a lot of help. Lou Sander (talk) 21:04, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

any decision about what to do when "policies conflict" will depend entirely upon the sources and the policy and the suggested article content at the time "policies conflict". No general theorizing about "what should we do when policies conflict?" will ever be appropriate to any specific time when it happens.

The only way this article will advance is specific content with specific sources, being applied per specific intersections of appropriate polices as determined by the content and the sources. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:17, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

• The "it's only a guideline" argument is not one I expect an established editor to make. David, if you want to make a specific proposal, then make it. General questions don't belong here. This page has had enough irrelevant distractions. IRWolfie- (talk) 23:29, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

If the only thing one draws from my posting is "its only a guideline"... well, it suggests an interesting blindness to the rest of what I've typed. The diktat "General questions do not belong here." is silly. Of course they do. This particular "general question" defines the different approaches to editing being followed by those editing from a skeptical POV and those editing from an approach that elevates concern for BLP over the mythical danger that someone could read this article and fail to understand that morphic resonance is not reliable science. Belief in that myth betrays a true disdain for the elementary intelligence of our readers.

We do not have to beat our readers over the head, at every possible instance, with the skeptic's POV.

The desperate, zealous need to do so says more about the editors editing from a skeptical POV than it does about Sheldrake.

"is not one I expect an established editor to make. David," is a tautology. It is self-evident. I will never meet your expectations. And I praise the Flying Spaghetti Monster every day that this is so.David in DC (talk) 00:51, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

It eventually comes down to practical questions in any case. Is the dogma paragraph your only problem with the lead? How could it be fixed? vzaak (talk) 06:30, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Indefinite semiprotection

Because of topic ban violations by IP editor(s) as detailed in this AE thread, this article is semiprotected as an arbitration enforcement action under the authority of WP:AC/DS and Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience#Discretionary sanctions.  Sandstein  07:25, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Determining level of consensus

How should the mainstream view of "science has become a series of dogmas" be addressed in the lead?

Do we pick a dogma such as conservation of energy and provide the mainstream view of that? Or do we quote from a source that that directly address the issue, e.g. "woolly credulousness"? Or something else?

questions and clarifications about people's positions

• We shouldn't address it at all. We should say somethng like "Sheldrake questions several of the foundations of modern science, arguing that science has become a series of dogmas rather than an open-minded approach to investigating phenomena." We could possibly give an example or two, such as conservation of energy, with maybe a few words about why he questions it/them, for the purpose of being more particular about his challenges/thoughts. There is no need to defend the foundations of modern science, or any one of them (they stand in mighty eminence on their own, and the link to conservation of energy, if there is one, will let readers see for themselves how foundational it is). There is no need to point out how stupid Sheldrake is for questioning such obvious truths. All that stuff, if it is done at all, could/should be done in the body of the article. Lou Sander (talk) 23:22, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
• Erm what is this and why is this in such a strange format. Discussions should be accompanied by sources. We don't make decisions in the absence of sources, IRWolfie- (talk) 23:25, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Archiving

There were 54 threads open, so I archived the older ones and left 7. Bot seems to not be working, I tried to fix the template, not sure if it will make any difference, IRWolfie- (talk) 23:23, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Biologist

David just added this title. Since the source was an article Sheldrake wrote, I replaced it with a news article about the stabbing.

Under the parapsychologist refs: the first ref is from Nature and says "parapsychologist" without mentioning biologist/biochemist/etc; the second ref is from New Scientist and says "biochemist-turned-parapsychologist"; the third ref is from Nature and says "former biochemist".

It would seem that he is viewed as a parapsychologist and former biochemist by his peers, while he views himself as a biologist. I thought the situation before David's change was a good compromise: call him a biochemist/cell biologist/plant physiologist for the years shown without explicitly saying "former biochemist". vzaak (talk) 06:20, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Biologists research biology and publish that research as part of the scientific process. Sheldrake hasn't done any biology since the mid 1980s. Barney the barney barney (talk) 10:10, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

People in a field do not need to do research or publish in journals to be members of that field. Consider teachers of biology in small liberal arts colleges. Lou Sander (talk) 12:28, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

The University of Binghamton refers to him as a biochemist, and the University of Cambridge also acknowledges his Ph.D as does the University of Edinburgh,. He is also referred to as a biologist by the University of London, the University of Arizona, and the Open University, What academic sources do we have that describe him as anything else? --Iantresman (talk) 12:54, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

The fact that some sources are inaccurate in their language doesn't mean Misplaced Pages should be. Biology teachers are biology teachers, but Sheldrake doesn't teach any more either. Barney the barney barney (talk) 12:57, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

I thought we went with the sources. The part in the article I supplied that calls him a biologist is not in his voice. It's in The Ecologist's explanation of who he is. Written this month. "A biologist does biology" is not and observation about what the source says. David in DC (talk) 13:00, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

The job of an editor is to say things appropriate to an encyclopedia, from a neutral point of view, and based on published sources. There is judgment involved. If it is appropriate to call him a writer or a biologist or a parapsychologist, it's not necessary to comb through lots of sources to find people who call him that. Neither is it necessary to list every thing that every source has called him. Lou Sander (talk) 13:28, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

David, nobody is contesting that there are sources that say he's a biologist. But of all the sources, the weakest ones would be those written by Sheldrake himself. Editors tend to ask authors how they wish to be described. Using an independent source makes your claim stronger, not weaker. (Did you realize I didn't delete "biologist", but only substituted an independent source?) vzaak (talk) 13:31, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, a biologist is "An expert or specialist in biology; a student of biology" which is met by Sheldrake's doctorate. Those who call Sheldrake a "parapsychologist" are not independent peers, but skeptics who are clearly trying to discredit him. I would venture:

"Sheldrake is an author with a Ph.D in biochemistry, who has undertaken research in biology, and more recently in the field of parapsychology."

--Iantresman (talk) 15:11, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

That's not bad, but maybe could be better. I wish I had the words. In the first short paragraph I think we need to say that he's an author and lecturer (his main recent and notable activities, briefly stated). We should clarify that by somehow saying he's a legitimate scientist (from his education and early work) who has moved into areas that are legitimately challenged by legitimate scientists (parapsychology is one of them, but there might be better, less controversial, words to describe what he's into now). That might be enough for the first paragraph. Lou Sander (talk) 16:27, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Sheldrake is not notable as a biologist. As has been pointed out, he massively fails WP:PROF. It would be somewhat like describing Maggie Thatcher as a chemist, when her chemistry career did not make her notable, but something else did. Barney the barney barney (talk) 17:52, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Sheldrake is notable as a person. A biography of Margaret Thatcher that made no mention of her training as a chemist would need an edit adding that fact.

Kevin Trudeau is a convicted scam artist. An article about him without mention of his role in the world of billiards would be incomplete.

Dr. Joyce Brothrs' article would be incomplete without a reference to her stint as a boxing expert on a 1950's game show. David in DC (talk) 18:12, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Providing proper context is necessary, i.e. former biologist/biochemist/plant physiologist. He no longer works in academia. Barney the barney barney (talk) 18:30, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

I would suggest:

"Sheldrake is an author and lecturer with a Ph.D in biochemistry, who has undertaken research in biology, and more recently in the field of parapsychology."

Our subsequent paragraphs then make it clear that he is no longer in academia. --Iantresman (talk) 20:28, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

• Ian, individuals at a university using a label does not mean the university endorses it. Universities do not review subpages belonging to institutes and individuals. For example, you have again cited Brian Josesphon, well known for his support of cold fusion, bubble fusion, telepathy and homeopathy "researchers", and his "mind-matter project" as "the university of Cambridge. That is highly misleading as you are very much aware, IRWolfie- (talk) 20:36, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

• The Perrott-Warrick Lecture by Dr. Rupert Sheldrake is published by the University of Cambridge. There is no suggestion that the University officially endorses Sheldrake's or Josephson's views, and no University would endorse the views of any lecturer. I would imagine that if the University thought there was any impropriety, adverse publicity, or even "pseudoscience", then they would drop the listing for the lecture like a hot potato. The University shows Sheldrake as Dr. Rupert Sheldrake because he has a doctorate in biochemistry from the University of Cambridge, and no matter how many times editors wish to associate him (or his colleagues) with minority views, he will remain a doctor in biochemistry.
• You will also note in my suggested wording above, that I avoided using an academic job label, in deference to the very criticism you are making. --Iantresman (talk) 21:33, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Somehow we need to convey the idea that he has legitimate scientific credentials, especially since his scientific work raised doubts that led to his infamous hypothesis and to his book that challenges many scientific dogmas. It is not helpful to lecture other editors, or to point out that his scientific credentials are insufficient in themselves to make him notable. Lou Sander (talk) 21:18, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

This is not serious...

it's simply a gift to anyone who think it doesn't hurt to lighten things up a bit. It's also the awesomest pseudoref ever. David in DC (talk) 13:07, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Can we all post funny links that involve Sheldrake now? IRWolfie- (talk) 20:38, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

New Age sources

Perhaps Sheldrake is New Agey after all. In The Rebirth of Nature he addresses "the topic of New Age consciousness", and Sheldrake himself says he was influenced by New Age. The source in the article mentions the Hundredth monkey effect, but Sheldrake is only sceptical of that particular anecdote, not the effect itself. The source in the article also makes a guess ("seems to be a sceptic") about Sheldrake's take on "critical mass", which shouldn't be reported as fact. Maybe the New Age bit should be removed until this is sorted out. vzaak (talk) 13:24, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Removing it would lessen people's understanding of Sheldrake. Lou Sander (talk) 14:02, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Timing is everything. People's perspectives can (sometimes) change given changes in the world around them. in '88 sources wonder if Sheldrake appreciates his New Age fan base with the implication that he sees it as a distraction. It may be necessary to parse his personal acceptance of being "one among the New Agery" or just seeing them as "a market that will buy his works" based upon particular points in history. (of course, such will depend upon what the sources say - with self-identification being an important lens.)-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:24, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

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