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Talkback

Hell in a Bucket (talk) 20:37, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

The Thalians

Would you be so good as to help improve this article a bit? There isn't actually an interaction ban that I could see anywhere, and even if there were, I would argue it should be lifted for this one article. You are a dedicated editor. He is a dedicated editor. You would both be surprised how far you could get working together to improve one article. Please. Give it an old college try. --GRuban (talk)

No thank you. Not at this time. Lightbreather (talk) 23:13, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Policy, guideline, and essay creation

Please check out WP:PROPOSAL. I think a lot of what you have been writing about over the last several weeks could form the basis of either an existing policy, guideline or essay, or a new one. In other words, it sounds like you have an idea of how civility should be enforced, but your time would be better spent putting it in the form of a proposal to modify existing rules or proposing new ones. Viriditas (talk) 02:26, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

If you are interested in pursuing this, I've created User:Lightbreather/Proposal for your own use. Viriditas (talk) 02:38, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. That is kind of where I was headed when I asked my simple, stupid question. I want to put a lot of thought into it... already have, in fact. But every time I get virtually reamed for speaking up, and having the ovaries to stick with my point/questions, a little part of me dies. What the hell? Why try? That kind of defeatist thinking. I want to improve the encyclopedia - including the working environment that produces it - but some have labeled me a trouble maker and they're building a little posse to chase me out of town. I don't want to go. Lightbreather (talk) 03:06, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I think the advantage of putting your energy into this user subpage is that when it's ready, you can solicit community input. Of course, you could just publish it as an essay, but if you want to take it further, you can propose a new policy or guideline or a modification of an existing one. Don't worry so much about what others think or what they are doing; just focus and concentrate on your ideas. If you do that, you'll find a groundswell of support and cooperation. Misplaced Pages has a lot of problems, but personally, I attribute it less to gender bias and more to youthful immaturity. Of course, being young and inexperienced isn't a hazard in and of itself; that kind of innocence is often a positive because it allows both new and old ideas to be presented in a new light. Older people, while full of experience and wisdom, often get entrenched in habit and can be resistant to change. The ideal situation is to combine the risk taking and idealism of youth with the hindsight of seasoned veterans, but in practice it's often one or the other rather than both. Viriditas (talk) 03:25, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I have no idea anymore who you think you are or who you think you are fooling but you have crossed the same line as you accuse Eric and I am sick of it! Is this some kind of game to you to see who can offend others the most?! Apology accepted. it was not your fault that I took offense to that.--Mark Miller (talk) 04:59, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. And I meant what I said. I rarely insult others on purpose. I am human, so I do insult from time to time without meaning to. Lightbreather (talk) 05:27, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I apologize here, and I already apologized there. Please see the comments that went with my apology, if you want to understand what I said. Lightbreather (talk) 05:18, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Lightbreather, I don't think continuing to discuss this on various talk pages is very helpful. Have you considered gathering your thoughts, organizing them, and adding them to the proposal talk page for centralized discussion? Viriditas (talk) 05:26, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

The thing is, Viriditas, I rarely mean for them to go on at multiple pages at once. For instance, I didn't start discussing that topic here. Mark brought it up. The discussion on the AN talk page that I started? It got diverted into other areas. I did start an ANI - two actually - but that's where we're supposed to take civility complaints when they aren't satisfactorily addressed on a talk page or lower DR venue. See what I mean? There have been a few discussions in the last few days that I thought were over, only to find out later that they were still going. Lightbreather (talk) 05:32, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining. Unfortunately, those places are not a good fit for your concerns. If you make your concerns explicit, in a structured and organized way per WP:PROPOSAL, and then invite the community to review it in a centralized location (such as the subpage I created in your userspace), then you can sit back and let the community give you feedback and work on your proposal. Basically, you want to create a roadmap for your proposal to succeed, and a way for the community to contribute to its success. Anything else is a waste of your time. Viriditas (talk) 05:45, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I agree. When I first asked my simple question on the AN talk page, about the existence of some kind of civility board, it was with the intention of finding out if there was any thing like it in the past. Then, to consider how we might (re) implement such a thing. It wasn't my fault that the discussion was hijacked, and I'll be glad when the dust settles and we can all get back to editing. Lightbreather (talk) 15:18, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I was around when the civility board was in use, and it really was a distraction. I think it is best if we give people the tools to be civil, rather than giving them another place to bitch about it. If that means teaching people how to be civil and why it is important, then I would support such an endeavor. But at the end of the day, it's all about self-control, self-determination, and self-government. We really don't need another layer of bureaucracy monitoring people for civility. What we do need, however, is for people to talk to each other about their conflicts and work things out for themselves, provided they have the ability to do so with support. It really comes down to listening and trust; sometimes one party either can't listen or refuses to listen to what the other party is saying because they don't trust them for whatever reason. So what I'm saying is, some of us need to teach civility, and some of us need to learn it. If you can address those two issues, I think you'll have the problem under control. Here's an idea: what about getting together with the people over at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Dispute Resolution and creating a Civility working group? There's also their manual, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Dispute Resolution/Proposals/Dispute resolution manual, which has never made it beyond the draft stage, and strangely enough, doesn't have anything to say about civility. But look at the bottom of the draft. There's an empty section called "Strategies for resolving disputes". Viriditas (talk) 22:55, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I do understand you. I do, but I just don't think you are trying to understand Eric. I don't think he should have restored that post after you deleted it, but he does that kind of thing a lot. I think there is enough offense in what you perceived to acknowledge it was offensive to you, but I have tried to help and I am not sure what to do anymore but stay out of this from this point on. You seem like a really good person and I am an asshole, but...I am an asshole that has put up with as much or more than you have on this encyclopedia in this regard and I think that part has escaped you. This isn't a matter of who has been insulted more, but I see you getting the support that I never got. And that you can't see the support is what makes me sad...for Misplaced Pages and you. Just....try to see what others are saying. I beg you.--Mark Miller (talk) 05:28, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

First, I know I also got distracted from trying to do a low profile organizing effort on the Gender Gap Task Force that was prematurely announced and discussed in a preliminary/brainstorming fashion while not really ready for prime time. So stuff happens.

Note there also have been proposals on Gender Gap email list on civility, which I haven't had a chance to thoroughly digest yet. I don't know if Lightbreather made them or has similar ones, or ones that could be tweaked from suggestions there. So it definitely would be helpful for her to write it up offline or on the created proposal page and then advertise it to the Task Force page and/or the Gender Gap email list if she is on it. Then the feedback should be more constructive. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 13:50, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Evidently

you're unable to grasp the irony of having a quote labeling people as having "small minds" at the beginning of a policy that forbids personal attacks. Business as usual on Misplaced Pages then.  — Scott • talk 19:14, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Scott, it's not an attack on microcephalics, it's a call for rising above the metaphorical "smallness" of petty gossip about people and enlarging the capacity of our attention to focus on big ideas that have a greater impact on our lives as people. I think you are reading it too narrowly and too literally. Viriditas (talk) 22:32, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I just think it is pretty much unimportant that any editor grasp the "irony" on any issue. This isn't an Alanis Morissette song, we're an encyclopedia.--Mark Miller (talk) 22:56, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

For Jytd et al.

Re: this archived conversation: . Be my guest (for now). Lightbreather (talk) 01:31, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

In fact, as a follow-up to that conversation, I did exactly as admin TParis suggested and reached out to the other editor. She deleted the request, citing a self-imposed interaction ban... Though she did comment about me on Jimbo's page, and today she reverted one of my edits. Lightbreather (talk) 01:54, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Scalhotrod

Here is the problem. You came into the Gender Gap project. Scalhotrod then came into the Gender Gap project. You promptly to his presence. The only reason that you provided had to do with porn, which is an issue on which both men and women disagree. It appears that you have issues with him that you didn't identify, of which we are not aware. I don't know much about him, and so I am expected to assume good faith. If there is some specific issue with him, we didn't know what it is. For instance, if he is stalking or hounding you, you should provide evidence somehow. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:55, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Objective of Non-Cabal

By the way, I have my own theory about what a few male editors want, and are almost succeeding at. It isn't, as CarolMooreDC says, to get rid of the women and establish a boys' club as such. It is to get rid of the editors who want a civil environment. They assume, correctly, that those include women, but what they really want is not to be rid of the women, but to set up a clubhouse in which crude talk is the usual rule. That is why I found the snarky comment about editors who don't swear being problematical to be deeply troubling. It isn't gender. It is culture. They are trying to drag the behind-the-scenes pages of Misplaced Pages down to a low level so that they can have the sort of crude electronic fun that they did in the 1990's on Usenet before Usenet partially faded away. That is their real objective. It isn't gender. It is culture. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:55, 30 July 2014 (UTC)