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Contradiction in article

A) "Following her graduation from high school, Carey's mother remarried, which ultimately prompted her to move out from their apartment." is contradicted by an early article that states 1) Carey moved out of the home days after high school graduation in 1987 2) Her mother remarried in 1988, a year after Mariah moved out. Thus, I deleted the line.

Sources:

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20106787,00.html

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1992-01-23/news/9201230630_1_mariah-carey-financial-support-stepfather

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20112018,00.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mseames (talk • contribs) 03:27, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Chris Nickson book being used a source

Why is an obviously biased book like Nicxkson's being used as an acceptable source? The book has been criticized for being pro-Mariah and a "fans only" book. The book is complied on magazine articles, Nickson did not have access to Carey herself.

http://www.amazon.com/Mariah-Carey-Revisited-Unauthorized-Biography/dp/0312195125 Mseames (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:40, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Can anyone take this up and research? I'm afraid for the concerns pointed out. —Indian:BIO · 15:54, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree. People magazine is a reputable source. Per them here http://www.people.com/people/mariah_carey/biography her bday is 3 27 69. Since MC came out in 1990 People has had her bday as 3 27 69. They based this not just on the info given to them by Columbia Records but also off of MC's NY ID(they got it in the 90s before the US made all drivers license and state's ID information private). Both years of 1969 or 1970 need to be included here. Thanks. 71.191.244.33 (talk) 01:27, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Note: See the #Featured article status section below discussing this topic. Like I stated there: Even if Chris Nickson is biased as a source, that, per WP:BIASED, does not disqualify him as a source. Flyer22 (talk) 08:30, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Life and Career - Derivation of first name

The song from the musical, "Paint Your Wagon", is "They Call the Wind Maria". There is no "h" on the end of the name of the wind.114.78.168.138 (talk) 12:57, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

There is a variation because of its pronunciation. 'Muh-rye-uh' as opposed to 'Muh-ree-uh'. Teammm 
_email 15:58, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Picture

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Can we change the picture? It's not very flattering and it's outdated. It isn't an accurate depiction of her current appearance. There are more recent ones that can be used, like this one. It was taken by one of her team members on her cell phone, so it should be okay to use legally, correct? http://fashionbombdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Get-the-Look-Mariah-Careys-Twitter-American-Idol-LWren-Scott-Red-Sleeveless-Dress.png

No. A picture needs to be there with a freely usable license at commons.wikimedia.org, or the author of the image needs to grant permission. Else it cannot be used. —Indian:BIO · 05:26, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, but it's just a picture taken on her cell phone....it's not some official, photo shoot picture.

Please refer to Wikimedia commons picture policy and non-free content criteria. That image is not free and belongs to Mariah. —Indian:BIO · 08:43, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Birthyear disputed. Pls include BOTH 69 & 70

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

As the previous poster has explained, Patricia Hickley, Mariah's Mother cleared the air on her birthdate, She was born in 1970. Link to Youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNnyGcVk0Oo she states this @ 2:25 How does this not supersede any of the other sources mentioned?? Isaiaahm (talk) 20:35, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

MC's Mother on the Oprah show stated her daughter was born in 1970. If you go on Youtube you will find a video entitled "Mariah Carey's Mother Set's the Record Straight on Mariah's Father!" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.120.182.58 (talk) 07:29, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

MC birthday is listed as 3 27 70 in the article. This is disputed. The current source is a bias book by a fan that speaks over glowingly of MC. Please correct the article to 1969 or 1970. I feel both need to be included here bc her birthyear is disputed. People magazine(published by very reputable/reliable TIME INC) is a reputable source. Per them here http://www.people.com/people/mariah_carey/biography her bday is 3 27 69. Since MC came out in 1990 People has had her bday as 3 27 69. They based this not just on the info given to them by Columbia Records but also off of MC's NY ID(they got it in the 90s before the US made all drivers license and state's ID information private). Both years of 1969 or 1970 need to be included here. Thanks. Thanks. 71.191.244.33 (talk) 01:43, 15 June 2013 (UTC) 71.191.244.33 (talk) 01:43, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Not done: People.com is incorrect on her birth year. The vast majority of published reliable sources, including recent ones celebrating her birthday and mentioning her age, have it correct as 1970. Teammm 
_email 17:12, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

We cannot unilaterally declare a Time Inc. publication that specializes in celebrities and their biographies to be incorrect. People is a highly reliable source and can't simply be ignored or discounted. Likewise CBS News and the New York Daily News.--Tenebrae (talk) 18:19, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

See Talk:Mariah Carey#Sources for March 27.2C 1970. Weigh those sources, including the Grammys, Rolling Stone, A+E, MTV, VH1 against People Magazine and any other source. I'm reverting the addition of 1969 and citing these strong sources. Teammm 
_email 20:40, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Both editor have been on borderline WP:3RR on this. Either cease and continue discussing here else this page would be locked and you know how tolerant admins are about breaking 3RR. —Indian:BIO · 03:59, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Date has been restored with modern books and encyclopedia sources - cant use a synthesis of primary sources to change a date that can be seen all over by everyone. -- Moxy (talk) 21:44, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Amazing all this effort expended and nobody apparently has bothered to consult the public record of the birth. Or rather would be amazing if one made assumptions about the intelligence of the masses that this shows to be false. 198.255.198.157 (talk) 08:41, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

And yo, Sr. Carey, congrats on being twice-born. Lycurgus (talk) 13:46, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

According to http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0002036/?ref_=nv_sr_1, Mariah Carey was born on March 27, 1970. Aaron Saltzer (talk) 03:57, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages disallows the wikia IMDb to be used as a reference citation. That's why we have four WP:RS citations each for each year.--Tenebrae (talk) 16:40, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Album title confirmed

Mariah's new album is going to be called "The Art of Letting Go" as confirmed by Jermaine Dupri here: https://twitter.com/jermainedupri/status/346823703553777664 Can someone please include this in the subheadings as well as the title please? LullabyGirl (talk) 10:21, 18 June 2013 (UTC)LullabyGirl

Pier Dominguez source unreliable/self-published, should not be used

One piece of information in this article, pertaining to Carey's performance of "Vision of Love" having the most influence on singer Christina Aguilera, cites Christina Aguilera: A Star Is Made: The Unauthorized Biography by Pier Dominguez as a reference. While Dominguez appears now to be a doctoral student pursuing serious academic work, I am concerned about the reliability of this particular source (which was published when the author was 19 years old, before the bulk of his academic career had begun). For one thing, parts of its contents read like a fan publication (consider, for example, the following: "The fact that approached Christina instead of Britney for a contribution to her soundtrack says something about whom she really respects."). Works such as these are generally not considered reliable unless the specific cited material was itself from another reliable publication, such as a newspaper. A close examination of the bibliography to this work reveals that, while some sources cited are indeed reliable, a number of them are gossip media, Internet chatrooms, other unauthorized biographies (such as this particularly confidence-inspiring one) and the like. A newspaper review points out some of the work's factual inaccuracies and inconsistencies. Perhaps most concerning is that personal emails from Shelly Kearns, Aguilera's mother, are frequently cited as sources. However, The New York Times points out that Kearns dismissed the work; if this page, published earlier the same year, was NYT's source, then, even more troublingly, it appears the author did not even attempt to contact Kearns, despite repeatedly citing correspondence with her ("No, I've never heard of these people ... A true journalist who supposedly 'researched' something so well, you'd assume, would have tried to contact us at least once to ask questions..."). Additionally, it is perhaps worth noting that his only previous publication at this point had been released by Writer's Club Press, an author mill with no editorial oversight. This work is published by Colossus Books, which is owned by Amber Communications Group, Inc., which also allows authors to self-publish work for a fee via its Quality Press imprint ("a special service-book packaging imprint for authors who wanted to self-publish their books instead of waiting to gain an interest from mainstream publishers").

In light of these troubling facts and Misplaced Pages's policy on unreliable biographical information about living people ("Contentious material about living persons ... should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion. ... The burden of evidence for any edit on Misplaced Pages rests with the person who adds or restores material."), particularly the policy on self-published material ("Never use self-published sources ... unless written or published by the subject"), I recommend that the associated fact be deleted from this page, or that the citation be replaced with those from reliable works. I would remove it myself if I had access to the edit page for this article. 98.155.5.150 (talk) 01:55, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for this, will be verified. —Indian:BIO · 04:17, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

The Art Of Letting Go is not accurate.

Can we remove The Art Of Letting Go as her new album title? Mariah said last week at the taping of her performance for the Macy's Fourth Of July Spectacular that The Art Of Letting Go is NOT the album title and that it was weird that they decided to make that title go viral. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.55.52.9 (talk) 20:24, July 3, 2013

Source? GoingBatty (talk) 22:07, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

.........She said it at the taping of her performance for the Macy's Fourth of July Spectacular. I was there. She said it in between a take. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.55.52.9 (talk) 22:24, July 4, 2013‎

I'm not doubting that you were there and that you heard Carey say this. However, Misplaced Pages needs a reliable, published source before making the change. Your help in finding one would be appreciated. (Also, please sign your posts by ending them with ~~~~) Thanks! GoingBatty (talk) 13:37, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Years Active???

The article says 1986 onwards, and it gives this link as a source. The link has nothing about when she started; it just shows a song that was used in an album released in 1989. Can anyone give clarification on that? I didn't remove the year, but I thought it was odd that the link was used as the source when it's irrelevant (or at least, it seems so). SKS (talk) 05:40, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

We cannot give her age without citation

Her birth year was given on this article as 1970, making her age 40, without the required citation. Major news outlets including the NY Daily News and CBS News (!) both give 41. Please see Derschowitz, Jessica. "Mariah Carey: I'm Pregnant", CBS News, October 28, 2010 9:40 AM and Everett, Cristina. "Mariah Carey is pregnant! Singer confirms she is expecting first child with husband Nick Cannon", Daily News, Thursday, October 28th 2010, 9:33 AM --Tenebrae (talk) 16:24, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

OK, I've found three WP:RS cites that give two different ages -- Daily News and CBS News above says she's 41,while AllMusic.com says she's 40. I've given all three sources and noted that "sources vary". --Tenebrae (talk) 16:52, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

People Magazie confirmed her age with birth records, school records, and NY state ID records. Please return her DOB to 3/27/69. Thanks. 69.140.66.37 (talk) 01:04, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

That's good. Can you give a cite and link for where People says that? We can't do anything with a verifying cite. --Tenebrae (talk) 03:16, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

I just noticed that in the interim, someone changed "1969 or 1970 (sources vary)" to just "1970". I've changed it back to the "sources vary" version. Reliable sources running the gamut from AllMusic.com to CBS to the NY Daily News give different years. Without definitive proof one way or the other, changing it to either year is POV. --Tenebrae (talk) 03:27, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Without citation, someone wrote in an edit summary today that "Carey herself" claimed the younger age. First, that's primary source. Second, stars lie about their ages all the time. Third, where is the cite for that? It's not footnoted here. By Misplaced Pages definition, CBS News and the NY Daily news are highly reliable sources. You cannot simply ignore WP:RS third-party sources just because they disagree with your belief. I believe if we take this to WP:RfC that the majority of editors will confirm they are indeed WP:RS third-party sources. --Tenebrae (talk) 16:11, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

The problem here is you will find reliable third party sources for both years. Carey herself has done a very good job muddying the waters over this and is in no hurry to clarify. So I suspect that unless a reliable source can be bothered to do a in-depth investigation to uncover the truth, like it actually matters, we may never be able to settle the matter. Did People Magazine really do this? --Escape Orbit 20:32, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Whether People went through all that, I don't know. I do know that its Mariah Carey page here says: "Mariah Carey: Date of Birth March 27, 1969. Birth Place Huntington, N.Y." It's a Time Inc. publication and generally very good about these sorts of things.

I agree with you: We completely find reliable third party sources for both years, so I don't see how we can do anything but give both years and say "sources vary". --Tenebrae (talk) 21:24, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Her birthday just passed on March 27. Well, these sources note she was born in 1969. Here, here, and here. Also, it's funny how it varies even on Google: this source says she's 42, yet some others still say 41. Not sure. I don't think it's something that will be resolved anytime soon, but like I mentioned before, usually it is mandated that American teens attend high school until they are 18 years old: she graduated in 1987, so she must of been born in 1969. Currently, though, we still don't have anything so definite showing the exact birth year. Estheroliver (talk) 00:50, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Here is an interview promoting debut album where she says she recorded when she was 19 (1989) and the album came out when she was 20 (1990). It implies she was born in 1970. Unless she was lying about her age back then, but I don't understand why she would.

At around 2:30

Donnie Simpson: So you're album was released when you were 19?

Mariah Carey: Um... yeah, no, 20. I recorded when I was 19.

Donnie Simpson: Okay.

--PoppleGumBop (talk) 10:15, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

The twins' birth certificates have just been revealed here. These documents show the mother's birthyear to be 1970. Jjmcspooh (talk) 08:32, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

That page doesn't show any documents.

Please see here- http://photos.toofab.com/galleries/moroccan_and_monroes_birth_certificates#tab=most_recent

The certificate shows 1970. Honestly, it would make sense that Mariah might have had a fake driver's license back in the day to be OLDER to sing in clubs. There would have been no reason to get a fake license to be younger at age 20. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.179.196.64 (talk) 07:44, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

The alleged birth certificates that have appeared online have already been addressed in the closed RfC discussion and elsewhere on this page. Please see, for example, the post signed "Hoary 01:20, 22 January 2014". Also, as previously noted: Hoax documents have been known to circulate on the Internet, and these particular ones aren't posted on any official County of Los Angeles site so the question arises: Where did they come from? Who outside the family could have obtained the children's birth certificates and scanned them? And if it was the family, why didn't the family post and announce it, rather than have them mysteriously "show up" at a couple of minor sites and not a mainstream publication that would have vetted them? --Tenebrae (talk) 10:06, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Also, the 1970 date is relying on a 1995 book that may be outdate. People, the New York Daily News and CBS all give 1969. We need to return to the "sources vary" version. --Tenebrae (talk) 14:45, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

As well, her own Long Island newspaper, Newsday, says "Born in Huntington, raised in Greenlawn" — not born in Northport. That 1995 book being cited for the 1970 birthdate and for Northport appears to be just some quickie celebrity bio with questionable research. --Tenebrae (talk) 15:04, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Sources for March 27, 1970

• 2013 A+E Networks Biography - confirms full birth date and location
• MTV Biography - confirms full birth date and location
• Yahoo! Movies Biography - confirms full birth date and location
• American Top 40 with Ryan Seacrest - confirms full birth date
• Grammy Awards 1991 - confirms 20 years old in February 1991
• The Rolling Stone Encyclopedia of Rock & Roll/Biography - "June 1993, Carey married Mottola, a man 20 years her senior." - confirms 23 years old in June 1993
• Mariah Carey's official website PLUS Associated Press - confirms 41 years old in April 2011
• Glamour Magazine - confirms 43 years old on March 27, 2013
• VH1 43rd Birthday Commemoration - confirms 43 years old in 2013
• Yahoo! Music - confirms 43 years old in April 2013
• E! Online - confirms 43 years old in May 2013
• Guardian Express - confirms 43 years old in July 2013
• New York Daily News at Picture #7 - details that Mariah's age is 43 years in July 2013 - as you can see, one of your sources has contradicted itself

All of these sources which are current and specialize in the music industry confirm her birth to be March 27, 1970. These should be given greater preference over errors in other sources. Teammm 
_email 20:13, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

I see you used People Magazine article using the 1970 birth year. Problem is, I can list twice as many People articles that point to 1969, especially early ones.

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20114312,00.html , 21 in January 1991

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20111705,00.html , 22, December 1991

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20110666,00.html 24, July 1993

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20063435,00.html , 22, Summer 1991

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20135079,00.html , 32, August 2001

And best of all is the November 1993 COVER story listing her age as 24. 1993 - 24 = 1969. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.35.161.105 (talk) 00:51, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Also the People article you cited saying Mottola was "20 years her senior?" Mottola was born in 1949. Thus, 1969 - 1949 = 20 years.

Since there is not incontrovertible, absolute proof, either the birth year should be removed ::entirely or both included as done on other Misplaced Pages pages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.35.161.105 (talk) 00:48, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Fine. I'm not going to argue or revert. However, as a journalist who realizes that celebrities have been known from time to time to lie about their age, I'm adding a footnote addressing the fact that People, Parade and others give a different date. I imagine you'll agree that we need to say something and not bury our heads in the sand and pretend these major magazines don't exist. --Tenebrae (talk) 22:38, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

• Mariah Carey early career interview in 1990 - (Video at 2:30) Mariah firsthand confirms she was 20 years old in June 1990

I don't agree due to the fact that Mariah herself and the vast majority of sources place her birth in 1970. It doesn't make sense to refer to a few outliers when Mariah herself has confirmed the other sources. Teammm 
_email 02:50, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Actors, actresses and singers lie about their ages frequently. That's one reason we really on third-party sources and not primary sources.

I can tell you this: I've been a journalist for over 30 years, and your attempts at censoring a viewpoint you personally disagree with is irresponsible and makes my job and other journalists' jobs harder. Whoever you are — and I can tell you're not a journalist yourself — you cannot personally, unilaterally, declare that Time Inc., Parade, CBS News and other sources "don't count." We have a right to know that not all sources agree — that major, responsible news organizations give differing birthdates. To say that you, personally, refuse to even allow this in a footnote is pure WP:OWN.

So let's either bring this to mediation, do an RfC or find some other way of bringing in responsible additional parties. Because your fannish whitewashing of what major sources state — your refusal to even acknowledge these other major sources exist — is plainly wrong. Misplaced Pages is not censored — and censoring facts is exactly what you're doing. --Tenebrae (talk) 03:50, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Oh, and by the way, here is what Time Inc.'s People magazine itself has to say:

In response to fan inquiries about the correct date, a spokesperson of the magazine issued a statement, "we have a copy of Ms. Carey's driver's license, which lists her birthday as March 27, 1969. Furthermore, we spoke with the administrators at the high school she attended who confirmed that Ms. Carey's birthday is March 27, 1969, as did her management when we made our initial interview."

So it looks like the 1970 date is wrong. People has a copy of her driver's license, and what's more, did all the additional research that a responsible news organization is supposed to do. Clearly, someone lied or misstated, 1970 wound up in Misplaced Pages, and lazy journalists have just copied each other.

People has a copy of her driver's license, confirmed 1969 with her high school administrators and even got it from her management. Contrary to your edit summary, that is not "unconfirmed." That's the very definition of confirmed. What do you say to all that? --Tenebrae (talk) 04:00, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Here's the Los Angeles Times, Sept. 25, 2009. LA Times music critic Ann Powers says Carey has "hit 40." http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/music_blog/2009/09/album-review-mariah-careys-memoirs-of-an-imperfect-angel.html --Tenebrae (talk) 04:19, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Oh, and how about this: From 1987 to 1990, before someone decided to shave a year off her age, as entertainers often do, Mariah Carey and her representatives themselves registered a series of copyrights with the U.S. Copyright Office giving her birth year as 1969. See http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?SC=Author&SA=Carey%2C%20Mariah%2C%201969-&PID=fP0n-oYpX7ii4iuV_MwmYquOAL9I&BROWSE=1&HC=26&SID=3 . I ask again: Are you going to censor this? Are her own filings with the U.S. Copyright Office somehow unacceptable to you? --Tenebrae (talk) 04:15, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

It has been nearly a month with no reply to this. How is it possible to justify 1970 when Time Inc. specifically states it used her own driver's license, high-school records and even her management to verify her birth date? What do the "1970" sources use? They don't say -- because, clearly they can't. They didn't go to her driver's license or other records. (As well, we know she graduated high school in 1987, so it strains credulity to suggest she started her senior year at 16; no one does that unless they're double-promoted, which no one says happened with her.) --Tenebrae (talk) 20:14, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Request for Comment: Birth Year

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Prominent, reliable sources give both 1969 and 1970 as birth years for Mariah Carey. How should this be addressed?

• Comment The only source for Mariah's Carey birth year that cites actual, physical documentation is Time Inc.'s People magazine, a highly reliable source, which says here:

"e have a copy of Ms. Carey's driver's license, which lists her birthday as March 27, 1969. Furthermore, we spoke with the administrators at the high school she attended who confirmed that Ms. Carey's birthday is March 27, 1969, as did her management when we made our initial interview."

Carey herself, in her U.S. Copyright registration, also gives 1969 here.

Given that People obtained confirmation from the driver's license, from the her date in her high school records, as well as from her management, and that Carey herself at the beginning of her career said 1969, how can this documentation be considered insufficient? --Tenebrae (talk) 13:21, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

I have restored the article to the stable version till your reverted change can be discussed. We have been through all this in 2009 - After the publication above (that did not provided any actual documents) Mariah told reporters ..... ‘Read my bio again. We can't allow these lies to spread,’. We have book after book after book that says 1970 and only one people magazine article that has been regurgitated only in the news realm that says 1969 - no modern bios think this is correct as recently added to the article . -- Moxy (talk) 15:32, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

That very article you're citing says she was born in 1969! And Wikiepdia is supposed to use secondary sources, not primary sources, since actors and actress like about their age. So we can acknowledge her denial, but we can't cite it.

Secondly, how can you argue against People having used her driver's license? Because they didn't post it? Are you seriously accusing Time Inc/'s People magazine of lying? Where you'll believe a 1970 a cut-and-paste quickie book that never spoke with her or cited documents? If you're going to demand that People post documents you have to demand that the 1970 cut-and-paste quickie book do as well.

Thirdly, the Los Angeles Times is certainly a reliable source. And it says that in 1969, Carey has "hit 40." Even her hometown paper, Newsday, gives her age as 44, here. Also CBS News and Parade magazine. Those are hugely reliable sources with deep-pocketed research and fact-checking staffs. It is unconscionable to ignore them in order to burnish a celebrity's vanity.

Did Carey herself lie to the U.S. Copyright Office when she gave her birth year as 1969? Explain that, please--Tenebrae (talk) 16:47, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

I dont know what to say - people has never provided any of the documents they say they have seen (ever) As for copyright - what makes you believe she gave that date? We have so much on 1970 even the time of birth at 7:27 A.M. as per the interview at . It may be a good idea to mention that since 2006 her birth date has be a sources of contention - but we need to state that the majority of sources until 2006 and most bios and her since then say 1970 and that only a few sources that used primary documents say 1969. -- Moxy (talk) 15:38, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

I think you've indeed suggested a middle ground that might be a good compromise. I do, first, need to say that as a journalist and someone who's been in the publishing business for over 30 years that no major publication, and certainly not a Time Inc. magazine, would risk libel at the worst and its reputation and credibility at the least by deliberately making a major biographical claim that wasn't true. It beggars the imagination that People would lie and say it had confirmed the date on her driver's license and her high-school records when it did not. Why would you believe Rolling Stone but not People? What's the basis of that? How is one different from the other?

RE: "the majority of sources": The number is in no way the single deciding factor: Many sources since 2006 have taken the information off Misplaced Pages itself. The quality of the sources is equally important. People, CBS News, the Los Angeles Times, her hometown paper Newsday and other high-quality, hugely reliable sources say 1969.

But you're right: I think one thing we can all agree on is the undeniable fact that her birth date is a source of contention among major news outlets. And that's not anything extraordinary — their true age is an issue with many performers. Might I suggest a format like the one used at Demi Moore, which reached consensus after months of debate about her birth name being "Demi" or "Demetria." Given the very similar fact-pattern here, that might well save us months of debate. --Tenebrae (talk) 00:07, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

• Looks like just me and you here... lets see what we can do. Got a proposal for d=some text we can add? -- Moxy (talk) 23:37, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm thinking something like the name note in the opening sentence of Demi Moore, maybe?

BTW, I noticed on your user page when I was leaving a note on your talk page the other day that we're both on Misplaced Pages in the 7 1/2- to 8-year range, and both active enough to meet Master Editor requirements. That's pretty cool — I find it so much better to work with veterans who know the policies and guidelines and are just less frenetic and more open to collaboration than many newer editors ... not that I haven't worked with many perfectly good new editors, but you know what I mean. And I am really sorry we got off on the wrong foot. It happens, and I'm glad we've worked through it. --Tenebrae (talk) 23:31, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

I do like that note at Demi Moore but like the layout {format) at Joan Crawford better as in you can see the publication right there without further mouse movement. -- Moxy (talk) 20:07, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

I also like the format at Joan Crawford. If this case was treated that way, that would be a very satisfactory explanation of her birth year dispute. Teammm 
_email 00:41, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Wow, that really is something at Joan Crawford! I hadn't seen that. Good call, Moxy! W might want to avoid the term "a minority of sources" since quality counts as much as quantity, and in any case it's more neutral to give raw facts and let readers decide. So how would we say this? "March 27, 1969 or 1970"? --Tenebrae (talk) 21:52, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Hi, Moxy and Teammm. Following the Joan Crawford example, then, how about something like this.

(born March 27, 1969 or 1970)

1. Sources differ. Those giving 1970 include:
   • Nickson, Chris (2011). Mariah Carey Revisited: The Unauthorized Biography. St. Martin's Press. p. 8. ISBN 978-1-4299-4015-3.
   • Shapiro, Marc (2001). Mariah Carey. ECW Press. p. 18. ISBN 978-1-55022-444-3.
   • McCann, Bob (2010). Encyclopedia of African American Actresses in Film and Television. McFarland. p. 69. ISBN 978-0-7864-5804-2.
   • Ankeny, Jason. "Mariah Carey Artist Biography". AllMusic.com. Retrieved Septembrer 8, 2013. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)
   Those giving 1969 include:
   • "Mariah Carey Biography". People. Retrieved 2011-03-04.. The magazine specified, "e have a copy of Ms. Carey's driver's license, which lists her birthday as March 27, 1969. Furthermore, we spoke with the administrators at the high school she attended who confirmed that Ms. Carey's birthday is March 27, 1969, as did her management when we made our initial interview."
   • Derschowitz, Jessica (October 28, 2010). "Mariah Carey: I'm Pregnant". CBS News. …Carey, 41…
   • "Mariah Carey Has Early Contractions on Birthday". Parade. March 28, 2011. Retrieved July 13, 2013. Carey, who turned 42 on Sunday....
   • Lovece, Frank (August 8, 2013). "Mariah Carey says she was spit on as a child on LI". Newsday. Long Island. Retrieved September 8, 2013. ...Carey, 44...

I added AllMusic.com to the 1970s quartet of cites, since I wanted to get a respected, easy referenced online source in there. Normally, we'd do this chronologically, giving the 1969 date first, but I figured it comes first in the prose so to give some balance, however subtle, I put 1970 first in the footnote. I also used bullets rather than the indents of Joan Crawford since I thought, in such tiny type, that bullets make it easier to read. What does everyone think?--Tenebrae (talk) 23:36, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

I just wanted to say Tenebrae and Moxy, kudos to you guys for this wonderful discussion on her birth year and taking the onus to come to a conclusion and consensus about it. Really appreciated. —Indian:BIO · 05:02, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

I favour Tenebrae's suggestion of simply saying 1969 or 1970, and citing a selection of the best sources for both. I don't think we're likely to get a definite answer on it as Carey herself is happy to obscure things. Seems crazy to think it makes any real difference, but there you go. Personally I suspect 1969 is correct, comparing the sources and considering all likelihoods, but that's just my opinion and there nothing definite that proves either date. Admitting that upfront is being honest with the reader, and the surest way preventing a continual changing of the date. Maybe one day a reliable source will care enough to get a definitive answer that can't be discounted, but until then.... --Escape Orbit 08:49, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

•  Done - have added the above sources...lets see now that it is there is anyone else has a concern. Not to many of us here....so lets add it see if others are ok with the new addtion of a notes. -- Moxy (talk) 18:28, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

I just want to thank Moxy for all his efforts and hard work, and for finding just the right model to adapt. As I wrote on his talk page, we transcended differences to create something bigger than the sum of its parts. When Misplaced Pages works truly collaboratively like this, there are few better feelings for those of us who love and appreciate research. Hats off to him. --Tenebrae (talk) 21:46, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Addendum: I added a line space, but it's problematic: Without it, the popup footnote looked jumbled. But with it, the bottom-of-page footnote looks like it has an unnecessary extra line. Maybe someone better versed in coding could fix it so it looks alright in both places? --Tenebrae (talk) 21:49, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Mariah Carey's Real Birth Year!

I know 100% for a fact that Mariah Carey was born in 1970. I have been a fan of her's for 17 years now and I know her birthdate! A long time ago it was even stated as 1970 on her official website's biography of her! The only source that screws up her birth year is People Magazine! Since most people think People is a credible source they used the birth date they provided which happens to be incorrect! I have contacted people a couple of times about this matter and they refuse to change it! For some reason none of Mariah's family or friends nor her spouse have said anything to people magazine to correct this! After she gave birth to her twins in 2011 it was also confirmed that she was in fact born in 1970 and it stated that in many articles and[REDACTED] had changed it to 1970 and now recently I see someone has changed it once again! I would have changed it if I could since I believe it should be accurate but, It is protected from me changing it so I please ask you to change it back to her real birth date and put only 1970! I have even seen her twins official birth certificates! It says Mariah and Nick's birthdates on them! Mariah herself even signed them! I can tell it is her signature especially the way she always writes her M with a loop in the top of it and compared to her other signatures I have seen of her it is very similar! Here is the links! If this isn't enough proof for this madness to end then I suggest someone contact the woman who gave birth to her Ms. Patricia Carey and ask her! It shouldn't be that hard to confirm this!

http://mstrendy.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/mariah-carey-twins-birth-certificate.jpg (Moroccan)

http://mstrendy.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/mariah-carey-twins-birth-certificate-2.jpg (Monroe)

The website this links to, presumably yours, is the self-published site of, according to the recurring byline cross-checked with LinkedIn, one JoVonna Munns, and not a professional journalism site. While the documents look credible, hoax documents have been known to circulate on the Internet, and these particular ones aren't posted on any official County of Los Angeles site so the question arises: Where did they come from? Who outside the family could have obtained the children's birth certificates and scanned them?

And in any event, if someone were to be fudging their age, a parent could write whatever he or she wanted when filling out the birth-certificate form — it's not as if a parent is asked for ID.

The year 1969 does not appear only in People — which has been asked about this specifically, and which states it saw her driver's license when she was starting out, and confirmed her high school records with the principal and confirmed it with her manager. Her early song copyrights in the Library of Congress all say 1969 before switching later to 1970. And since she graduated high school in 1986, would she really have graduated at 16? Or started her senior year at 15?

Misplaced Pages operates on consensus, and this issue received a full hearing with numerous editors over the course of weeks. Credible sources give both years. It's not Misplaced Pages's place to choose one over the other. The most factual thing an encyclopedia can do is report both and let the reader make up his or her own mind. --Tenebrae (talk) 22:39, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Mariah graduated high school in 1987.

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20106787,00.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.35.161.105 (talk) 00:43, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 14 October 2013

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Despite any sources who say otherwise, Mariah was born on March 27, 1970. Her own mother has said so in interview with Oprah in 1999. 68.193.63.129 (talk) 00:38, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Not done: This sounds contentious. Please form a consensus of how to include this with the other editors who are interested in this article. Thanks, Celestra (talk) 02:47, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

I contend it. 1969 long predates Miss Carey's comments, by at least a decade. 1969 was listed with the US Copyright Office before Mariah ever signed with Sony. I would highly contend Miss Carey simply stated what her daughter wanted. Plus, 1970 is difficult to fit with a1987 high school graduation year. This would have Mariah graduating a full year before she turned 18 - and Mariah has freely admitted she barely passed high school. Graduating a year early is not possible. Then, there's the People Magazine claim of 1969... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.35.161.105 (talk) 01:02, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Food

Mariah Carey states in "Good Morning America" that she does indeed enjoy her cereal with the cereal before the milk. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.134.118.72 (talk) 19:25, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

"As Carey's friendship with Starr grew, so did her interest in helping Carey succeed in the industry."

Is that sentence supposed to make sense??? First of all, the subject is FRIENDSHIP. What does "Her" refer to??

The sentence should read "As Carey's friendship with Starr grew, so did STARR'S interest in helping Carey succeed in the industry." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.21.154.235 (talk) 06:21, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

It was badly phrased. I've changed it to something clearer. Thanks. --Escape Orbit 21:02, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Date of Birth

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I know Mariah personally and she was in fact born in 1970 108.243.213.99 (talk) 13:51, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Not done: Misplaced Pages doesn't make use of claims of personal knowledge, I'm afraid. We document what is stated in reliable sources that readers can verify for themselves. The footnote (FN1) lists sources for both years, so that it how it must stand. Sorry. --Stfg (talk) 16:03, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Fine to go with RS. I do note have Nickson 1998 at hand to check if it gives the conflicting birth dates, but would be surprised if it does. I do have the following RS giving March 27, 1970: IMDBCharmerNickson 1995Shapiro 2001Nickson 2011. In fact, I am having trouble finding an RS mentioning 1969. I think it's safe to fix the article. -- ke4roh (talk) 20:39, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

IMDb is not a reliable source, just saying. Snuggums (talk / edits) 20:47, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Mariah Carey celebrates Christmas with another dictator Controversy

The pop star's concert for Angola's president isn't the first time she's entertained a despot...

http://www.theguardian.com/music/shortcuts/2013/dec/22/mariah-carey-celebrates-christmas-dictator — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.55.19.147 (talk) 22:03, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

The second paragraph in Mariah Carey#Philanthropy and other activities mentions the concert for Muammar Gaddafi, with reference #360 to an earlier Guardian article. Are you suggesting something further should be added to the article? GoingBatty (talk) 00:02, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

I do not think it has caused that much of a mayhem that we should start reporting the concert in a negative way. Third party media hasn't extensively reported it. —Indian:BIO · 10:53, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Edit war January 4, 2014

Jalynn98 is repeatedly removing cited information, such as this diff. I am up against WP:3rr, would some other editors review this change, and add the properly cited information back if appropriate? —Josh3580_talk/hist 22:18, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 January 2014

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Mariah Carey born in 1970 look -> http://mstrendy.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/mariah-carey-twins-birth-certificate.jpg Thank You. 187.18.230.13 (talk) 20:36, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, this is mildly interesting. It purports to be a birth certificate. But of course confecting a JPEG of a birth certificate is a fairly trivial task. And this JPEG is for some reason not in a music website but instead within the website of a retailer of women's clothes. If the birth certificate is genuine and of interest, then we can expect that what it says will be written up in a reliable secondary source, which can be cited in the article. -- Hoary (talk) 01:20, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Birth year

Being that today is her birthday and multiple sources are claiming she has turned 44 (while I can't find any saying she's turned 45)... isn't it about time we removed the 1969 date? Many sources in the past have listed that 1969 date but you won't find them going back to correct their old information. Seems like the media all figured out the correct year (1970). My copy and paste is being wacko right now, otherwise I'd post links.. but a google/bing search for "Mariah Carey" or "Mariah Carey birthday" today brings up a bunch of sources all going with 1970. Gloss • talk 14:25, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

And many other sources including highly WP:RS magazines and even her hometown newspaper say 1969. Google ""mariah carey" born 1969" and you'll get nearly a half-million hits.

The current phrasing is the consensus from a long and comprehensively discussed an RfC. See above. The whole purpose of an RfC is to reach consensus and close the argument. This is settled matter. --Tenebrae (talk) 14:32, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

It was all a ton of TLDR. I don't care too much either way, was just looking for a simple answer. So thanks.. I think. Gloss • talk 14:37, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Her mum said in an interview with Oprah that Mariah was born in 1970. I just made the change but was reverted.  — ₳aron 18:33, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

I know I'm late on this, but Calvin where can this interview be found? Given how many reliable sources indicate a 1970 birth and many other reliable sources indicate a 1969 birth, it looks like the only way we can find out for certain is either that or by accessing Mariah's birth certificate. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 04:55, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Just YouTube "mariah carey mum oprah". Didn't her birth certificate surface online a few years ago?  — ₳aron 10:12, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

From what I can find, it was the birth certificates of her twins that leaked online. I did find this video stating she was born 1970. I know there was a lengthy conversation about this, but I have a new proposal:

In the intro, we include sources that state 1970, and also include a note saying something like "While multiple reliable sources state Carey was born in 1969, her mother confirmed in an interview with Oprah Winfrey that Carey was born in 1970" and include the link to this if needed.

This is similar to the case of Will Smith, where a note in the intro indicates he stated that his middle name was "Carroll" while multiple reliable sources gave it as "Christopher". XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 17:35, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

At 2:26, Mariah's mother does point to Mariah and says, "In 1970, when she was born...." Since family members would certainly be recruited to shave a year off someone's age, and since official documents like her driver's license and school records say 1969, I'm wondering if, to adapt XXSNUGGUMSXX's idea, we use the Demi Moore model, re: Moore's name: After giving cites for both positions add, "Carey's mother says 1970," with this Oprah/YouTube cite. --Tenebrae (talk) 01:02, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

I doubt family would give out the wrong age (unless said family members have poor memory and/or are notorious for lying), and so far I haven't seen any photos of her school records or license. There is the Demi Moore model. If we get a photo of Mariah's birth certificate, that would be surefire proof. However, only info on her twins' birth certificates have been revealed. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 01:10, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

In the footnote is a quote from People magazine, which profiled her early in her career, saying editors saw her driver's license, spoke with school administrators to confirm her school records, and also confirmed her birthdate with her manager, who all gave 1969. Also, her hometown paper gives 1969. The mother's comment has to be put into perspective against all that. What do you think? Should we add a sentence about the mother, a la Demi? --Tenebrae (talk) 23:46, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

I checked that ref and found 2 problems: 1) It does not contain such a quote. 2) I see no photos of such records. I'm willing to go a la Demi Moore or a la Will Smith. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 23:55, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Not sure you hit the right link. People gave the information to a database at http://www.nndb.com/people/115/000023046/#FN1, which is linked to from the word "specified" in the footnote.

But we seem to be in agreement. I'll go ahead and add the mom's comment and the YouTube link. --Tenebrae (talk) 00:02, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

My oops: That YouTube link was a copyvio and got reverted. --Tenebrae (talk) 00:11, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I reverted that, as the video was not uploaded or hosted by the copyright owner. Copyright violations should in no circumstances be linked to. If you can find that video hosted somewhere by Oprah or the TV network, or discussed in an article by a reliable source, then that could be appropriately used as a reference. Adabow (talk) 00:12, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

WP:RSN has declared NNDB unreliable, though that link does contain the quote but no photos. Therefore we don't have quite solid evidence with such a link even if it wasn't declared unreliable. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 00:24, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

True, though in this case we're not citing NNDB data but a quote from People via that site. And as you correctly imply, that one citation itself is not definitive — that's why it's just one of several cites on both sides of the question. --Tenebrae (talk) 14:32, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

If including People, I would at least remove the quote NNDB uses. For all we know, due to NNDB's unreliability it wouldn't surprise me if the site made that quote up on its own. Personally, I recommend using something like Los Angeles Times in place of it or her hometown paper Newsday. Those provided more context for a 1969 birth than People did. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 15:47, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Associated acts

My additions towards the associated acts keep getting reverted. Go If there is a consensus when these artists: Brenda K. Starr, Trey Lorenz, Allure, Da Brat, Boyz II Men, and Whitney Houston can be added along with Jermaine Dupri. All the respective artists I added have Mariah Carey as a notable associated act on their info boxes. Backendgaming (talk) 05:09, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

You need to provide third party reliable sources for this. Not your own words or other Misplaced Pages articles. Associated acts are those who have been associated for a long time with an artist. Like Breakfast Club for Madonna, Lady Starlight for Lady Gaga, Destiny's Child for Beyonce etc. One/two time collaborations with an artist does not make them associated acts and that is how the consensus is across all the musical pages in Misplaced Pages. Now you need to make points as to how these artists can be listed as associated acts with their one time collaborations. —Indian:BIO · 05:12, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

It's not as simple as "associated for a long time", though those are good samples. Any of the following also constitutes associated act:

• Has worked on a collaborative album together (i.e. Jay-Z and Kanye West)
• Has been part of a group or band (i.e. Gene Simmons with Kiss, Billie Joe Armstrong with Green Day)
• Have frequently collaborated with one another (i.e. Pitbull and Jennifer Lopez)

Producers and lyricists are generally not considered associated acts unless they contribute vocals or something, so for example Dr. Luke and Max Martin would not constitute as associated acts for Katy Perry, and DJ White Shadow would not count as one for Lady Gaga. Snuggums (talk • contributions) 05:18, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Driving the point home, gooooo Snuggums! :P —Indian:BIO · 05:24, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you :P Snuggums (talk • contributions) 05:26, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

List of Associated Acts

Jermaine Dupri

• No question, long time collaborator and produced numerous song's through Carey's career.

Brenda K. Starr

• Mariah Carey sang live background vocals for Starr, and she helped Carey secure a recording contract by giving a demo tape of hers to Columbia Records executive Tommy Mottola at a party.], pp. 61 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFNickson1998 (help)]
• Basically, Starr played a role into helping Carey jump-start her music career starting in the late 80's.

Trey Lorenz

• Featured Supporting singer of Mariah Carey throughout various tours in Carey's career He first appeared on her first promotional tour in 1990, and the following year he provided background vocals on her album Emotions. Lorenz again served as Carey's backing singer on her March 16, 1992 appearance on the television show MTV Unplugged. Lorenz and Carey also sang a cover of the Jackson 5's "I'll Be There" - a duet at Michael Jackson's memorial service on July 7, 2009.
• Recorded a critically successful self-titled debut album. The single "Someone to Hold", which he co-wrote and co-produced with Carey.
• Supported Mariah Carey on her albums and concert tours again in 1997, including a featured spot in the 2003 Charmbracelet World Tour, which he co-wrote with Carey and Cory Rooney. He was again featured in Carey's 2006 The Adventures of Mimi Tour, doing background vocals and singing three songs, "Never Too Much", "A House Is Not a Home" and "Crazy", during one of her many costume changes.
• Previously signed to Carey's short-lived imprint label, MonarC.

Allure

• Signed to Carey's Crave Records in the 90's and Carey helped with the production of their first album, Allure.
• I believe this group can be left off as they are no longer associated with Carey and become more fringe within the music industry since their debut.

Whitney Houston

• Collaborated with Carey on "When You Believe" (US No. 15, UK No. 4), a duet with Mariah Carey for 1998's The Prince of Egypt soundtrack, which also became an international hit as it peaked in the Top 10 in several countries and won an Academy Award for Best Original Song.
• Has complimented her and mentions Houston as an influence.
• Was close friends and had a strong relationship with the late singer.
• Helped pave the way to showcase Carey's vocal talent.

Da Brat

• Featured on several remixes with Carey including Always Be My Baby, Honey, Heartbreaker, I Still Believe, and Loverboy. See Da Brat discography for more info.
• Onstage guest on Mariah Carey's The Adventures of Mimi Tour in Atlanta, New York City, Long Island, Washington DC, Chicago, and Los Angeles.
• Co-wrote a song with Mariah Carey back in 2007 called "O.O.C." which appears on E=MC² and contributes backing vocals on the track signifying her sixth collaboration with Carey including remixes.
• Is close friends with the singer.

Boyz II Men - One time collaboration back in the 90's but still listed as an associated act in the article infobox. This group can be left off.

Backendgaming (talk) 06:08, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

As I said before, producers generally do not count as associated acts and Jermaine certainly doesn't in this instance. Snuggums (talk • contributions) 13:58, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Lemme break it down person to person for Backendgaming. Dupri, producer of many of her songs, but not associated with Carey as vocalist. Brenda, was the instigator behind Carey's career, how is that even considered associated act? Trey, again supporting acts for Carey can't be associated acts can they? The same clause about the producers come along. Whitney, definitely a big no. They collaborated only once and they were "supposedly" friends in life. That in no way makes one an associated act. Neither does calling each other as influences. Da brat, you kinda hit the nail on your own coffin saying that he is friends with Mariah Carey and that he was a remixer of some of her tracks. By that logic every goddamn remixer out there is associated act for every other artist. Snuggums set a pretty concise parameter as to what can and cannot be supporting acts and I'm afraid none of them pass that. —Indian:BIO · 15:10, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Mariah's Birth Year

I own two biography books of Mariah Carey, which are Mariah Carey Revisited: The Unauthorized (1998), and Mariah Carey, Her Story (1995),in Both books it has March 27th 1970 being her birth date. Also I own a few magazine's such BOP,Elle,Tiger Beat; that also states her birth date being March 27th 1970, in the articles, which were interviews. Also the 1969 was the year Patricia Carey (Mariah's mother) got pregnant with Mariah Carey,precisely on July 4th, that is why Mariah wrote the song 4th of July on the Butterfly album. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Draper38 (talk • contribs) 00:33, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

What sources say Patricia conceived Mariah on July 4, 1969, Draper38? The vast majority of sources I have seen say she was born 1970, but a while ago it was determined that both should be included. Snuggums (talk / edits) 00:48, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

@SNUGGUMS: I agree, and I (hopefully) have found something that should lay this to rest. Volume 2 of the United States Public Records (1970-2009) lists a Mariah Carey, born March 27, 1970, as living at 90 Franklin Street, New York City. Obviously these celebrity addresses are all over the internet, and it checks out with The New York Times who has an article on her apartment building. A Mariah Carey was born in 1969, but on March 2, so this doesn't check out, nor does her current residence. —JennKR | ☎ 01:34, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Impressive findings, Jenn! The only more official thing I could think of would be gaining a copy if her birth certificate. Let's see what Petergriffin9901, Calvin999, and IndianBio have to say. Snuggums (talk / edits) 01:41, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Mariah's mum said on Oprah that Mariah was born in 1970.  — ₳aron 16:30, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

I always believed it was 1970. Only thing I ever saw for 69' was an apparent article People published with her ID? Or something of that nature. I thing 1970 is the way to go.--PeterGriffin • Talk2Me 06:33, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

NNDB (which is an unreliable source per multiple RSN discussions) said People published her ID or something, but I can't find any People article talking about her records or anything. 1970 it is. Snuggums (talk / edits) 12:04, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

No, not without another RfC — see the admin-closed RfC above. Multiple other sources, including her own hometown paper, Newsday, which has covered her form the beginning give 1969. --209.122.114.237 (talk) 16:40, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Article size

This article's size has considerably increased to 200KB now. That's just too long and sinewy. I believe we should prune the article some with the biography portions and the influences to make it flow better and keep its FA status. A FAR would be a good idea as well. Let me know your thoughts guys. —Indian:BIO · 06:30, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Increased to 200K..... from what point in time, and what was it before? This article has so far survived two FAR's, and the more recent FAR was several years ago, but we might not need that if boldly pruning ourselves. I'll give some thought as to what should be taken out and what should stay. We could also take to GOCE after finishing. Snuggums (talk / edits) 07:00, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

That would need to be analyzed, but I belive a size of 150K would suffice for now. A multiple factors are associated, QUOTEFARM, Page loading time, and also that a review is needed since as you pointed out that the FAR was many years ago, this needs time to scrutinize. (PS. What the hell is teh list of references doing below? >:() —Indian:BIO · 07:02, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Per WP:FAR instructions, one must first raise issues on talk page and try to resolve them then and there. If issues go unresolved, THEN nominate for FAR. Snuggums (talk / edits) 07:40, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Yep that's what we are trying to achieve here. I think spotchecks are of utmost necessary, especially because of concerns like this. —Indian:BIO · 08:27, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

@SNUGGUMS: @IndianBio: I agree with Snuggs. It definitely needs some work, but it's been over 180K for well over 3 years now. It's been a very slow and gradual build-up (especially with not much happening with her career in past years). The article sure needs work, but I don't necessarily think FAR is needed/appropriate. Also, 150K is a bit ambitious for someone of her career length/stature Bio. Anything below 175K would be removing valuable information and hurting the article.--PeterGriffin • Talk2Me 23:14, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

The article size looks to be of usual, or close to usual length, for a singer with Carey's success (legend and all that). And there are articles on Misplaced Pages bigger than this one. Also, when factoring in size, make sure that, per WP:SIZE, we are basing that on readable-prose and aren't including all the other stuff. Flyer22 (talk) 23:22, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

To Petergriffin, I was definitely not suggesting removing valuable information from the article. What I was talking about is pruning the quotes a little and maybe paraphrasing it, so that the sentence flows are a little better. Well, Carey's career is not going to end with that flop of an album, she will continue to record. Now since there is a lull, we can look into the article through a review process and better it. And Flyer, yeah I was basing it on readable prose only. —Indian:BIO · 05:27, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

UPDATE: There's probably more to do, but so far I've reduced the article from ~202k to ~193.8k. Snuggums (talk / edits) 03:54, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Edit request: Archive of dead link

The Newsday Glenn Gamboa link (footnote 4) is dead or elsewhere on the live site. Here is the Oct. 14, 2013, archive link: https://web.archive.org/web/20131014201804/http://www.newsday.com/entertainment/fanfare/li-music-hall-of-fame-recognizes-local-talent-1.884107 . Someone please add. --209.122.114.237 (talk) 16:48, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Adult contemporary

Those who adding adult contemporary music (which is a style, not a genre) in the infobox from Mariah's song information pages. She had nothing to do with AC. 183.171.169.57 (talk) 14:03, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Singer-songwriter

The term "singer-songwriter" is very different to listing "singer, songwriter" as separate occupations. The first few sentences of the singer-songwriter page show that Carey is not a singer-songwriter:

Singer-songwriters are musicians who write, compose and perform their own musical material including lyrics and melodies. As opposed to contemporary pop music singers who write or co-write their own songs, the term singer-songwriter describes a distinct form of artistry, closely associated with the folk-acoustic tradition.

As explained, this is a person who writes, composes and performs their own musical material. Carey does all of these, even on her first six studio albums, with asssitance from other songwriters and producers, which is not in accordance with the term's distinct form where a person almost always composes alone (see the likes of Bob Dylan or Joni Mitchell). Nor does Carey follow the stylistic conventions of the artistry (typically an instrumentalist with understated production, see AllMusic's definition). —JennKR | ☎ 21:53, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes you are correct JennKR. None of the contemporary singers also can be listed as singer-songwriter. —Indian:BIO · 07:03, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

JennKR, I think you are quite misinformed about Carey. To say "As explained, this is a person who writes, composes and performs their own musical material. Carey does all of these, even on her first six studio albums, with asssitance from other songwriters and producers" is not correct. On her first six albums, Mariah is credited as the sole songwriter for 99% of her songs, and she also co-composed all of their melodic structures. She continues to co-write the lyrics and melodies to all of her songs to this day. Out of any contemporary singer to day, with the exception of Madonna, too, Mariah Carey is a singer-songwriter. Carey isn't just a contemporary pop singer who writes or co-writes her own songs as in a sentence or two like most singers (Katy Perry), Carey does indeed write, compose and perform the lyrics and melodies that she performs. What makes Madonna, Taylor Swift and Adele different?  — ₳aron 15:31, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Adele and Madonna indeed are singer-songwriters, where people like Lady Gaga, Jessie J, and Katy Perry are singers and songwriters for co-writing their material (though in their cases more than just a sentence or two) and have written songs for other singers (i.e. Gaga co-wrote "Hypnotico" by Jennifer Lopez, Jessie co-wrote "Party in the USA" for Miley Cyrus, KP co-wrote "Passenger" by Britney Spears and "Black Widow" by Iggy Azaela). There are also songs they have written solely by themselves ("You and I" by Gaga, "Big White Room" by Jessie, "Thinking of You" by KP). If one thing is certain, it gets confusing when talking about those who are singer-songwriters and those who are singers and songwriters. Mariah also co-wrote for the band Allure. Snuggums (talk / edits) 16:05, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

I think of Gaga and Jessie as singer-songwriters, but not Katy Perry. I'm skeptical about how much of her Dr. Luke produced songs she actually writes. Mariah Carey is a singer-songwriter.  — ₳aron 16:08, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

No, they are singers and songwriters, not singer-songwriters as they don't do as much writing, composing, etc. as people like Madonna. I could be wrong, but once heard that songwriters are listed in song infoboxes in order of who wrote the most, and producers are listed in order of who produced the most. If this is the case, then KP writes more of her songs than the others involved since she gets listed first in songwriters field, no matter how often Dr. Luke appears. Same idea for Mariah's articles where she is listed first in the field. KP also solely wrote six of her songs on Katy Hudson and three of her tracks on One of the Boys. There's also the songs she co-wrote for others, which also includes Selena Gomez & The Scene, Jessie James, Kelly Clarkson, and Leslie Roy. This is not guaranteed to total above 50% for someone who is listed first, though. Snuggums (talk / edits) 16:25, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Carey isn't credited as the sole songwriter or producer of any song on her first six albums (see Mariah Carey, Emotions, Music Box, Merry Christmas, Daydream and Butterfly, where every song is composed with another person). Compare this with a true singer-songwriter, like Bob Dylan or Joni Mitchell; their discographies show that almost all songs are written, composed and performed by themselves. This is, of course, not an absolute rule, singer-songwriters are going to collaborate with others on their songs, but it is expected that most of their material is to be written, composed and performed by themselves. I think it's also important this term isn't interpreted narrowly in the fields of writing and composition. The Misplaced Pages article explains that a "singer-songwriter" isn't someone who simply writes and performs their own songs, its a distinct form of artistry within the folk/acoustic tradition with particular stylistic conventions that can almost be seen as a genre of music in itself. The page explains " "singer-songwriter" is used to define popular music artists who write and perform their own material, which is often self-accompanied generally on acoustic guitar or piano. Such an artist performs the roles of composer, lyricist, vocalist, instrumentalist, and often self-manager. lyrics are personal, but veiled by elaborate metaphors and vague imagery similarly straightforward and spare sound that placed emphasis on the song itself." AllMusic writes that "singer/songwriter refers to the legions of performers that followed Bob Dylan in the late 60s and early 70s. Most of the original singer/songwriters performed alone with an acoustic guitar or a piano but some had small groups for backing."

Carey isn't involved in the folk/acoustic tradition, she doesn't play guitar or piano when composing her songs and she hasn't written or produced any song by herself. These are all the typical conventions of a singer-songwriter and Carey doesn't fit them. Also, I've noticed that the credentials of other artists have been questioned, and I think they're right to be questioned, however, this is a discussion about what Carey is and I think this discussion should focus on that. If it is believed this term is being attributed wrongly to others then a similar discussion should be taken to that talk page, or perhaps a project-wide discussion should be initialised with WP:POPMUSIC or WP:MUSIC? I know that myself, and I'm sure others, would be happy to weigh in on further discussions on this issue. Best, —JennKR | ☎ 17:26, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

(I'm apologising now for the length of the above, but this is quite complex.) —JennKR | ☎ 17:30, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Gaga definitely comes up with those wacky melodies. And lol, writers are not listed in the info box per how much they contributed. JennKR, please educate yourself about Carey and her music. Buy the CDs for Emotions, Music Box, Daydream and Butterfly, look in the booklet and you will see that aside from eight songs, excluding covers of course, that Carey wrote all of the lyrics for all of the other songs by herself, and co-composed the melodic structures to each and every one of them (List of songs recorded by Mariah Carey). Carey has also said that she knows how to play a piano but prefers someone else to play it while she conceptualises the melody. You don't need to always have a guitar or piano on stage with you to be a "singer-songwriter", we aren't in the 60s and 70s anymore. The term "singer-songwriter" applies to singers such as Madonna, Adele, Taylor Swift, Mariah Carey, Lady Gaga, Jessie J, Alicia Keys.  — ₳aron 20:45, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Calvin999 Then why does the track listing of all six albums listed above not list Carey solely in the "Writers" or "Producers" field for any song? Whether Carey plays the piano in her spare time is irrelevant, its whether she uses it to compose her songs. We may not be in the 60s/70s but the term refers to the tradition of this time, wherein an artist writes, composes and performs their own material by themselves. It does not refer to contemporary pop singers who co-write and co-produce all of their material with others. —JennKR | ☎ 20:57, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Because whoever did them has just combined it and not done it properly. I trust the booklet printed by her record company more than how whoever inputted into the track list table, hence why I linked List of songs recorded by Mariah Carey. It doesn't matter if she directly plays the piano while creating a song, or whether she is instructing someone to play the notes that she is coming up with by humming, singing, etc. According to you, Carey used to be a singer-writer, and is now a singer and songwriter. She may co-write now, but she stills writes, produces, vocal produces, arranges, composes her songs and executively produces her albums. She doesn't let anyone else do something without her involvement. She is more involved with the creative process of making a song than any singer out today. No one else does as much as she does in the studio. The song "Vulnerability (Interlude)" for example was written and produced solely by Carey.  — ₳aron 21:15, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

When I browse ASCAP to compare her songs with their entries in the track listing (I've been comparing two albums I'm familiar with as I own them on casette: Mariah Carey and Emotions), they match up. Every song is written and produced with someone else, and I understand when you say that she is hugely involved in the creative process (I know quite a few similar artists), but this is still not the convention of the traditional singer-songwriter. Hmm, we're not helped by the fact that we have little policy to guide us on what I call "job titles" (singer, songwriter, actress, etc.), and I'm considering creating a music-project wide discussion in which we could weigh in on. —JennKR | ☎ 21:31, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

ASCAP isn't always reliable. I find that the booklets are the best way of gathering info on who did what. I just watched an interview with Mariah where she says that she writes, co-produces, conceptualises, mixes, masters, does 90% of her background vocals, provides the arrangements for the background vocals by herself. She said that she has always written songs, even before getting a record deal. She would sit and write songs and poems, and that was clearly by herself. Mariah is undoubtedly a singer-songwriter.  — ₳aron 21:37, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

I've never seen evidence to suggest ASCAP was unreliable, but I'm also not disputing that Carey does the above. What I am disputing is whether Carey should be described as a singer-songwriter because it's not a term that we use to describe someone who simply writes their material. It's something quite distinctive (which I've outlined above) and as she doesn't write or produce by herself (and works with many people each album), nor meets any of the other conventions, she doesn't present herself as one. —JennKR | ☎ 21:51, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Pinging Acalamari, who often edits articles accordingly to whether people are singer-songwriters/singers and songwriters, for input. Snuggums (talk / edits) 22:04, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

She doesn't just write the songs though. Is there any evidence to suggest that people like Bob Dylan everything by himself? Did he produce his vocals? Did he mix the songs? Did he master them? Carey always highlights herself as a singer-songwriter in interviews. In the same interview I just watched, she picked out how in a magazine she was featured in, she was simply referred to as a 'singer', which angered her, and that P Diddy was referred to as a musician, actor, businessman, philanthropist, clothing designer etc. Mariah identifies as a singer-songwriter. Gaga once said "I'm a songwriter at heart".  — ₳aron 22:09, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

I've opened a RfC here to gage community opinion. To be honest, I think discusion should go beyond this RfC into creating more definitive guidelines around "job titles" and I hope the decision goes some way in grounding what terms we use. —JennKR | ☎ 22:36, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Sorry for the late reply to the ping. Since Mariah is not "...closely associated with the folk-acoustic tradition.", I would just list her as a singer and a songwriter, rather than a singer-songwriter. Acalamari 14:49, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Featured article status

This article was used as an example of poor quality at WP:BLPN recently and I popped over to take a look. I was shocked at how poor it is. It is way too long and detailed, with an over-abundance of trivial quotes and inessential information. It looks like it has been written by fans. I have not yet looked at whether it passed FAC in 2007 looking like this, or whether it was better and has deteriorated. In any case it certainly does not currently meet Featured Article criteria. Is there any appetite for getting it (back?) in shape? Or should we look at a Featured Article Review? --John (talk) 09:22, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

From my experience, I would assume (and conversations upthread on talk suggest as much) that it's both. The FA criteria were more lax in 2007, and the subject's high profile means it is a magnet for IPs to wander in and add whatever they feel like, whether or not it actually improves the article. I believe SNUGGUMS, who recently took Katy Perry through FA, has already made a start of trimming some of the cruft out, and is continuing to do so. I'm sure they'd be up for help in getting it back into shape. Perhaps a delist and a GA review would work? Ritchie333 09:27, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Sounds good. My preference would be for just improving the article without a lot of bureaucracy, but it will be a lot of work. --John (talk) 09:44, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I would say that a format FAR would be beneficial for the article. I do see users posting here regarding explicit aversion towards the book sources being used and two of them are questioning the reliability of the authors. —Indian:BIO · 09:58, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

We just discussed the article size at #Article size above; like I stated there, "The article size looks to be of usual, or close to usual length, for a singer with Carey's success (legend and all that). And there are articles on Misplaced Pages bigger than this one." As for the article being poor, it isn't; not even close. But I'll leave the changes to this article for others to handle. I mainly have it on my WP:Watchlist to look out for the birthdate drama that keeps coming up at this article. Flyer22 (talk) 10:39, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Flyer22, you are right, the article is definitely not poor, however, for FA we must maintain a high high standard, which sadly the article has lost over time. That's what we are trying to achieve. Reducing the fluff goes a long way to improve the size, that is not related to article size. —Indian:BIO · 11:37, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Like Ritchie333 mentioned above, the WP:FA standards were different back in 2007. Either way, the level of quality that is this article is what I generally see all around Misplaced Pages regarding WP:GA or WP:FA WP:BLP singer articles. The discussion John is talking about is a heated discussion, and it's bound to have editors going to articles that are pointed out there, including to make a point opposite of what is pointed out there. Flyer22 (talk) 11:49, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

As Ritchie and Flyer have indicated, FA and GA criteria were much less demanding several years ago. This passed an FAC in 2006 and survived 2 FAR's in 2007. Upon looking through the references, I'm not seeing too many issues with quality level except for Fox News and New York Post, which I'm certain would not be accepted in FAC's nowadays. Several aren't quite correctly formatted, and I haven't yet checked for deadlinks, but I do believe this article is salvageable unlike John Mayer (hence I raised this FAR as it is beyond repair). Thank you IndianBio for helping reduce the fluff. Snuggums (talk / edits) 15:39, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Well said SNUGGUMS, and good work indeed IndianBio for reducing the amount of cruft somewhat. It still needs some work I think. References cleanup, fewer and shorter quotes, and a further cull of fancruft and this article will be worthy of its star. --John (talk) 16:36, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

On a side note, may I recommend any serious article writer installs User:Ucucha/HarvErrors - if you use {{sfn}} or {{harvnb}}, they are an invaluable tool for spotting obvious reference howlers (eg: wrong year, typo in surname, year missing etc). Ritchie333 20:46, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you very much Ritchie- looks very useful indeed! Snuggums (talk / edits) 20:49, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

SNUGGUMS, you think that Fox News and New York Post would not be accepted in a WP:FA today? Why do you feel this way? I know that people have issues with those sources, but they often count as WP:Reliable sources...even in WP:BLPs. Flyer22 (talk) 22:45, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

While not always deemed unreliable, they aren't exactly top-notch. NY Post is often regarded as one of the least reputable papers in the state, and Fox News is often criticized for creating hoaxes about liberals (notably Barack Obama). They might or might not be accepted in WP:GA's, but WP:FA demand the best possible quality sources. Snuggums (talk / edits) 22:54, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Good explanation; I agree. And for the record, I was also taking uncontentious material into account when I commented about Fox News and New York Post above. Flyer22 (talk) 22:57, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Criterion 1c. Sources like that wouldn't be considered adequate for an FA in 2014, especially not a BLP. --John (talk) 23:18, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I would again like to bring everyone's attention to this section about the Chris Nickson source which is a primary content addition. Can we please get this book clarified as an authoritative source? —Indian:BIO · 11:45, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I'll search Chris Nickson's background and find some alternative sources in case his 1998 biography on her isn't usable..... Snuggums (talk / edits) 03:07, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

If Nickson is found to be unreliable then this article is kinda gone. 90% of the background and many of the articles in WP:MARIAH project is based on his book. :( —Indian:BIO · 04:11, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

I haven't reached reliability conclusions yet, but will note this: there are currently 357 footnotes. Out of these, 39 are from Nickson's book. Not sure yet if that would be worrisome. Snuggums (talk / edits) 04:29, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Snuggums, its not the number of times its been used, its the amount of content that it is being sourced, that is huge. And for this reason I'm letting it spill to the song articles also which rely on the book. Worrisome nonetheless. LEt us know what you can find. —Indian:BIO · 04:35, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Good news; after looking through his works, I don't really see things to be worried about. Some might view him as biased for his praise of her, but it isn't really a biased book as far as I'm concerned. Snuggums (talk / edits) 06:46, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Even if Chris Nickson is biased as a source, that, per WP:BIASED, does not disqualify him as a source. And as for the birth date matter, SNUGGUMS, considering past passionate debate about Carey's birth date at this talk page, including the WP:RfC currently shown above, I'm not sure that two sources for each is enough. Then again, we could simply point to that aforementioned WP:RfC when someone challenges including both birth dates. Flyer22 (talk) 08:30, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Also, the Parade magazine source is currently a WP:Dead link. And I would have left in the People magazine source, which went through extra lengths to validate Carey's birth date. People magazine is one of the more reputable sources on this matter, and, in 2013, was deemed a more than adequate source for celebrity information at the WP:Reliable sources noticeboard. Its reliability is also noted in that aforementioned WP:RfC above. Flyer22 (talk) 08:44, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

While the People website does suggest a 1969 birth, I can find no article by them talking about looking into her records or even any photos of them. The only site I've seen talk about them searching records is NNDB, which has been declared unreliable in multiple RSN conversations. Snuggums (talk / edits) 15:45, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I did notice that Tenebrae was pointing to the NNDB source as supporting what People magazine did, and I was already aware of the various discussions about NNDB at the WP:Reliable sources noticeboard, but I figured that its use must be an exception in this case, since it was used in combination with the People source in the Mariah Carey article without any objection from very experienced Misplaced Pages editors. I also considered that Tenebrae might have a better source supporting People magazine going the extra length to validate Carey's birth date. I would ask Tenebrae about this, but he or she has not been editing Misplaced Pages (at least under the Tenebrae account) since he or she was temporarily blocked months ago. Flyer22 (talk) 23:19, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

I doubt this would make a very compelling exception; as I previously told Tenebrae, NNDB could easily have been fabricating details given its unreliability. Something tells me viewers previously overlooked the NNDB link and assumed that the quote was from the People website. Snuggums (talk / edits) 23:33, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Ethnicity

I know that Mariah has stated that her father is half Venezuelan but according to these two links - http://www.wargs.com/other/carey.html & https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X42X-3B5, her paternal grandfather was from Cuba and likely lied about his background to avoid anti-Cuban backlash. Ayamih (talk) 14:50, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

• It does say that he was born in Cuba in the first link you provided; I was unable to connect to the second site. I don't think there is any doubt that he lived in Venezuela for probably the bulk of his life prior to coming to the US. If it seems relevant to Mariah, the fact that her dad was born in Cuba but lived in Venezuela could be added——though, I'd probably add it as a note at the bottom of the page, if anywhere. Considering her dad was not a major player in her life, nor are the finer details of his heritage particularly relevant to who she is, I would not include it in the body of the article.--Esprit15d • talk • contribs 14:22, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Adult contemporary?

Those who adding adult contemporary music (which is a style, not a genre) in the infobox from Mariah's song information pages. She had nothing to do with AC. 183.171.180.27 (talk) 05:51, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

net worth

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2895007/A-dance-club-vanity-4-TVs-look-inside-Mariah-Carey-s-1-8M-two-storey-skyscraper-wheels.html

77.44.219.42 (talk) 18:49, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

 Not done Daily Mail is not a reliable source. Snuggums (talk / edits) 20:07, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

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