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:These suggestions are just polish. Nice work on the big picture!! --] 13:34, 2 August 2007 (UTC) :These suggestions are just polish. Nice work on the big picture!! --] 13:34, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


::I"m not particularly interested in the Made-for-TV stuff, nor the Older DC works. I figure that the 'list of' pages can be holistic, but that most readers will want to find out about the more recent works. Further, the Batman and Superman templates have far more about all appearances of those characters. {{Unsigned|ThuranX}} ::I"m not particularly interested in the Made-for-TV stuff, nor the Older DC works. I figure that the 'list of' pages can be holistic, but that most readers will want to find out about the more recent works. Further, the Batman and Superman templates have far more about all appearances of those characters. <small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->


:::Not sure what the reasoning is that "most readers will want to find out about the more recent works". That's more in keeping with a magazine than an encyclopedia, which needs to be, well, encyclopedic. --] 21:46, 3 August 2007 (UTC) :::Not sure what the reasoning is that "most readers will want to find out about the more recent works". That's more in keeping with a magazine than an encyclopedia, which needs to be, well, encyclopedic. --] 21:46, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
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:Right, thanks, I'll get that this weekend. ] 11:56, 12 October 2007 (UTC) :Right, thanks, I'll get that this weekend. ] 11:56, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

==Hulk rewrite==
==Publication history==
===Debut and first series===
The Hulk debuted in ''The Incredible Hulk'' #1 (May 1962), by writer ], ] and co-plotter ], and ] Paul Reinman. In the first issue, the Hulk was gray rather than green. Writer and Marvel editor-in-chief Lee had wanted a color that did not suggest any particular ethnic group.<ref name=”CBG”>'']'' #1617 (June 2006)</ref> Colorist ], however, insisted to Lee that the coloring technology at the time could not present the color grey clearly or consistently, resulting in different shades of grey, and even green, in the issue. In issue #2 and after, Goldberg colored the Hulk's skin green.<ref>'']'' #213 (July 2003)</ref> Although retellings of the Hulk's origin during the next two decades feature him with green skin from the beginning, and reprints were recolored to green, starting with vol. 2, #302 (Dec. 1984), the Hulk was shown as having been grey in ]s to early appearances. This was reaffirmed in vol. 2, #318 (April 1986), which showed the Hulk was grey at the time of his creation. Since then, reprints of the first issue have displayed the original grey coloring.
] and ].]]

The original series was canceled after six issues, with the finale cover-dated March 1963. Lee had written each story, with Kirby penciling the first five issues and ] penciling and inking the sixth. The character immediately guest-starred in ''Fantastic Four'' #12 (March 1963), and months later became a founding member of the ] appearing in the first two issues of that superhero team's eponymous series (Sept. & Nov. 1963), and returning as an antagonist in issues #3 and #5 (Jan. & May 1964). He then guest-starred in '']'' #14 (July 1964).

Around this time, co-creator Jack Kirby received a letter from a college dormitory stating the Hulk had been chosen as its official mascot.<ref name=OyVey> </ref> Kirby and Lee realized their character had found an audience in college-age readers.

===''Tales to Astonish''===
]. |thumb]]
A year and a half after his title was cancelled, the Hulk became the backup feature in '']'' in issue #60 (Oct. 1964). In the previous issue, he appeared as the antagonist for ], star of the book. These new stories were initially scripted by Lee and illustrated by the team of penciller ] and ] ]. Other artists later in this run included ] from #68-84 (June 1965 - Oct. 1966), doing full pencils or, more often, layouts for other artists; ], credited as "Scott Edwards", in #76; ] (inking Kirby, #78-84); and ]. Marie Severin finished out the Hulk’s run in ''Tales to Astonish''; beginning with issue #102 (Apr. 1968) the book was retitled ''The Incredible Hulk'', and ran until March 1999, when Marvel cancelled the series, and then restarted the title with a new issue #1.

This run of stories introduced readers to recurring villains such as the ], who would become the Hulk's arch-nemesis<Ref name=HulkTIG> </ref>, and the ], another gamma-irradiated being, but stronger than the Hulk.<Ref name=HulkTIG>page 40</ref> In issue #77 (Mar. 1966), the Hulk's identity became publicly known.

===1970s===
''The Incredible Hulk'' continued to be published through the 1970s and also made guest appearances in other titles. In 1977, following the debut of the eponymous television series, Marvel launched a second title, ''he Rampaging Hulk'', a comics magazine targeted to the show's audience.<ref name=HulkTIG/>Writers also introduced Banner’s cousin Jennifer Walters, the ], who was featured in a title of her own. Banner gave some of his blood to Walters in a transfusion, and the gamma radiation affected her, but she maintained most of her intellect. Banner’s guilt about causing her change was a component of her early stories.

Writers changed numerous times during the decade. At times, the creative staff included ], ], and ], Len Wein handled many of the stories through the 1970s, working first with ], then in 1975, with ], who was the regular artist for almost ten years. ] wrote a tale for the hulk “The Brute That Shouted Love From the Heart of the Atom”.

===Through the 1990s===
Under the creative team of ] and ], it was established that Banner had suffered ], an idea explored in the Crossroads of Eternity stories. Stern showed the readers that abuse fostered a great deal of repressed anger within Banner, in turn causing his fragmented personality. John Bryne then took the writing duties from Mantlo, and quickly passed them to Al Milgrom, who, in turn, passed them to Peter David.

In 1987, ] became the writer of the series with issue #331, marking the start of a 12 year tenure on the series. David's run altered Banner's pre-Hulk characterization and the nature of Banner and the Hulk's relationship. David returned to the Stern and Mantlo abuse storylines, expanding the damage caused, and depicting Banner as suffering ]. David's stories showed that Banner had serious mental problems long before he became the Hulk. David revamped his personality significantly, giving the grey Hulk the alias 'Joe Fixit', and setting him up as a morally ambiguous Vegas enforcer and tough guy. David worked with numerous artists over his run on the series, including ], ], ], ], ], and ]. <ref name=HulkTIG>page 86</ref>.

In issue #377, David revamped the Hulk again, using a storyline involving hypnosis to have the splintered personalities of Banner and Hulk synthesize into a new Hulk who has the vast power of the Savage Hulk, the cunning of the gray Hulk, and the intelligence of Bruce Banner.
In the 1993 Future Imperfect limited series, Peter David and ] introduced readers to the Hulk of a dystopian future. Calling himself “The Maestro”, Hulk rules over a world where most of the heroes have been killed, and only Rick Jones and a small band of rebels fight against The Maestro’s rule. Although The Maestro seemed to be destroyed at the end of the mini-series, he has appeared since, returning in ‘’The Incredible Hulk’’ issue 460, also written by David.

In 1998, David followed editor Bobbie Chase's suggestion to kill Betty Ross. In the introduction to the Hulk trade paperback ''Beauty and the Behemoth'', David said that his wife had recently left him, providing inspiration for the storyline. Marvel executives used Ross' death as an opportunity to push the idea of bringing back the Savage Hulk. David disagreed, leading to his and Marvel's parting ways. His last issue of ''Hulk'' was #467, his one-hundred and thirty-seventh.

Also in 1998, Marvel relauched the ''The Rampaging Hulk'' title, this time in a standards comic book format, instead of as a comics magazine.

===Relaunch===
When David left the Hulk, Marvel hired ] as a temporary writer. Shortly after, Marvel cancelled ''The Incredible Hulk''.

Marvel hired ] for a second volume of the series, re-titled ''Hulk'', with ] penciling. Byrne departed before the first year was over, citing creative differences.<ref>{{Cite web | url=http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=190 | title=John Byrne: The Hidden Answers | author= Michael Thomas | year= August 22 2000 | Publisher=comic Book resources | accessdate= 2007-11-05}}</ref> ] and ] briefly filled scripting duties in his place, and the title soon returned to ''The Incredible Hulk'' with the arrival of ] in issue #12.

Jenkins wrote a story arc in which Banner and the three Hulks (Savage Hulk, Grey Hulk, and the Merged Hulk, now considered a separate personality and referred to as the Professor) are able to mentally interact with one another, each personality taking over their shared body. During this, the four personalities confront yet another submerged Hulk, a sadistic Hulk intent on attacking the world for revenge.<ref name="HV3:13">''The Incredible Hulk'' vol. 3, #13</ref>. Jenkins also created ] in issue #14, a ruthless military general in charge of the original gamma bomb test responsible for the Hulk's creation and planning to create similar creatures. Ryker’s actions briefly result in Banner becoming the sadistic Hulk, but the four other personas beat it back.

] followed as the series' writer, and his run features Banner using ] to take control of the Hulk while he is pursued by a secret conspiracy and aided by the mysterious Mr. Blue. Jones focused on a horror theme with the Hulk as a fugitive. He appended his 43-issue ''Incredible Hulk'' run with the ''Hulk/Thing: Hard Knocks'' ], which Marvel published after putting the ongoing series on hiatus.

Peter David, who had initially signed a contract for a six-issue ''Tempest Fugit'' ], returned as writer when it was decided to make the story, now only five parts, part of the ongoing series instead.<ref>{{Cite web | url= http://peterdavid.malibulist.com/archives/2004_09.html | title= Slight change of plan with Hulk | year=September 30 2004 | publisher=peterdavid.net | accessdate=2007-11-05}}</ref> David contracted to complete a year on the title. ''Tempest Fugit'' revealed that Nightmare has manipulated the Hulk for years, tormenting him in various ways for "inconveniences" that the Hulk had caused him, including the sadistic Hulk Jenkins had introduced.<ref>''The Incredible Hulk'' vol. 3, #81 (July 2005)</ref> After a four-part tie-in to the '']'' ] and a one-issue ], David left the series once more, citing the need to do non-Hulk work for his career's sake.<ref>{{cite web | url=http://www.comicboards.com/hulk/view.php?trd=050718024904 | title=My leaving "Hulk" | author=Peter David | year=July 18 2005 | publisher=The Incredible Hulk Message Board | accessdate=2005-08-28 }}</ref>

=== Planet Hulk and World War Hulk ===
{{mainarticle|World War Hulk}}
]'' #1 by ].|thumb]]
In the 2006 storyline "Planet Hulk" by ], a secret group of superhero leaders, the ], consider the Hulk an unacceptable potential risk to Earth, and rocket him into space to live a peaceful existence on a planet uninhabited by intelligent life. After a trajectory malfunction, the Hulk crashes on the violent planet Sakaar. Weakened by his journey, he is captured and eventually becomes a ] who scars the face of Saakar's ] emperor. The Hulk becomes a rebel leader and later Sakaar's king.

After Hulk’s rise to emperor, the vessel Hulk was sent to Sakaar on explodes, killing millions in Sakaar's capital, including his queen, Caiera, and their unborn child. The damage to the ] destroys the planet and kills most of its population.

The Hulk, enraged, returns to Earth with the remnants of Sakaar's citizens, and his allies, the Warbound, as a king seeking retribution against the Illuminati.

===Bruce Banner===
The core of the Hulk, Bruce Banner has been portrayed differently by different writers, but common themes persist. Banner is a ] but emotionally withdrawn in most fashions.<Ref name=HulkTIG>{{cite book
| last =DeFalco
| first =Tom
| title =The Hulk: the incredible guide
| publisher =DK Publishing
| date =2003
| location =London
| pages =200
| isbn =0=7894-9260-1}}</ref > Banner designed the gamma bomb which causes his affliction, and the ironic twist of his self-inflicted fate has been one of the most persistent common themes. <ref name=OyVey>{{cite book
| last =Weinstein
| first =Simcha
| title =Up, Up, and Oy Vey!
| publisher =Leviathan Press
| date =2006
| location =Baltimore, Maryland
| pages =82-97
| isbn =1-881927-32-6 }}page=83</ref> Arie Kaplan describes the character thus: “Bruce Banner lives in a constant state of panic, always wary that the monster inside him will erupt, and therefore he can’t form meaningful bonds with anyone.” .<Ref name=Kaplan>{{cite book
| last =Kaplan
| first =Arie
| title =Masters of the Comic Book Universe Revealed!
| publisher =Chicago Review Press
| date =2006
| location =Chicago, Illinois
| pages =263
| isbn =1-55652-633-4 }}page 58</ref>

Throughout the Hulk's published history, writers have continued to frame Bruce Banner in these themes. Under different writers, his fractured personality led to transformations into different versions of the Hulk. These transformations are usually involuntary, and often writers have tied the transformation to emotional triggers, such as rage and fear. As the series has progressed, different writers have adapted the Hulk, changing Hulk's personality to reflect changes in Banner's physiology or psyche.
Writers have also refined and changed some aspects Banner's personality, showing him as emotionally repressed, but capable of deep love for Betty Ross, and for solving problems posed to him. Under the writing of Paul Jenkins, Banner was shown to be a capable fugitive, applying deductive reasoning and observation to figure out the events transpiring around him. When Banner has controlled the Hulk's body, he has applied principles of physics to problems and challenges and used deductive reasoning.

===The Hulk===
During the experimental detonation of a gamma bomb, scientist Bruce Banner rushes to save a teenager who has driven onto the testing field. Pushing the teen, Rick Jones, into a trench, Banner himself is caught in the blast, absorbing massive amounts of radiation. He awakens later in an infirmary, seeming relatively unscathed, but that night transforms into a lumbering grey form that breaks through the wall and escapes. A soldier in the ensuing search party dubs the otherwise unidentified creature a "hulk".<ref name=Hulk1>{{Cite book | title =The Science of Superheroes | Publisher=Marvel Comics Group | date = May 1962}} Page=8</ref>

The original version of the Hulk was often shown as simple and quick to anger. His first transformations were triggered by sundown, and his return to Banner by dawn; later, emotions triggered the change. Although grey in his debut, difficulties for the printer led to a change in his color to green. In the origin tale, the Hulk divorces his identity from Banner’s, decrying Banner as "that puny weakling in the picture"<ref name=Hulk1/>. From his earliest stories, the Hulk has been concerned with finding sanctuary and quiet<ref name=OyVey>page=85</ref>, and often is shown reacting emotionally to situations quickly. Grest and Weinberg call Hulk the "...dark, primordial side of psyche."<ref name=GreshWeinberg>{{cite book
| last =Gresh
| first =Lois
| authorlink =
| coauthors = Robert Weinberg
| title =The Science of Superheroes
| publisher =John Wiley & Son, Inc.
| date =2002
| location =Hoboken, New Jersey
| pages = 200
| isbn =0-471-46882-7}}page=27</ref>. Even in the earliest appearances, Hulk spoke in the third person. The Hulk retains a modest intelligence, thinking and talking in full sentences, and Lee even gives the Hulk expository dialogue in issue six, allowing readers to learn just what capabilities the Hulk has, when the Hulk says, “But these muscles ain't just for show! All I gotta do is spring up and just keep goin'!" In ''Marvel: Five Fabulous Decades of the World's Greatest Comics'', Les Daniels addresses the Hulk as an embodiment of cultural fears of radiation and nuclear science. He quotes Jack Kirby thus: "As long as we're experimenting with radioactivity there's no telling what may happen, or how much our advancements may cost us." Daniels continues " The Hulk became Marvel's most distubing embodiment of the perils inherent in the atomic age." <ref name=DanielsMarvel>{{cite book
| last =Daniels
| first =Les
| authorlink =
| coauthors =
| title = Marvel: Five Fabulous Decades of the World's Greatest Comics
| publisher =Harry N. Abrams, Inc.
| date = 1991
| location = New York
| pages =287
| isbn =0-8109-2566-4}}</ref>

'']'' #12 (March 1963), featuring the Hulk's first battle with ], as well as a new way for Banner to transform into Hulk, by using a gamma ray machine of his own design to trigger the change. Although many early Hulk stories involve ] trying to capture or destroy the Hulk, the main villian is often, like Hulk, a radiation based character, like the Toad men, or General Fang. Ross' daughter, ], loves Banner and criticizes her father for pursuing the Hulk. General Ross' right-hand man, ], also loves Betty and is torn between pursuing the Hulk and trying to gain Betty's love more honorably. Rick Jones serves as the Hulk's friend and sidekick in these early tales.

Stan Lee, and others have compared The Hulk in these early tales to Frankenstein's Monster.<Ref name=OyVey>page=85</ref> Lee wanted to use the idea of the misunderstood monster he saw in Frankenstein's Monster, and the Hulk conveyed that concept. Lee also compared Hulk to the ] of Jewish myth. <Ref name=OyVey>page=87</ref> In ''The Science of Superheroes'', Gresh and Weinberg see the Hulk as a reaction to the Cold War <Ref name=GreshWeinberg/> and the threat of nuclear attack, an interpretation shared by Weinstein in ''Up, Up, and Oy Vey''<ref name=OyVey>page=84</ref>. Kaplan calls Hulk ‘schizophrenic’. <ref name=Kaplan/>

In the 1970’s, Hulk was shown as more prone to anger and rage, and less talkative. Writers played with the nature of his transformations, briefly giving Banner control over the change, and the ability to maintain control of his Hulk form.

Hulk stories began to involve other dimensions, and in one, Hulk met the empress Jarella,. Jarella used magic to bring Banner’s intelligence to Hulk, and came to love him, asking him to become her mate. Though Hulk returned to Earth before he could become her king, he would return to Jarella’s kingdom of K’ai again.

Mantlo took the character into the arena of political commentary when Hulk traveled to ], ], encountering both the violence of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and the Jewish Israeli heroine ]. Soon after, Hulk encountered the ], a ] superhero. <ref name=OyVey/>

Under Bill Mantlo’s writing, the Hulk was separated from a human mind inside to constrain his actions by the extra-dimensional villain, ]. Unable to help him, ] exiled the mindless Hulk to an extra-dimensional place called the Crossroads of Eternity, from which place he could journey to other worlds, in hopes of finding a place to reside. During the stories at the Crossroads, Banner’s childhood traumas were explored and Hulk/Banner forced to come to terms with them, and in so doing, reconnect to the human mind within. To tell this story, Mantlo employed three new characters, reflecting aspects of Banner’s fractured psyche: Glow, a gleaming floating gem, represented Banner’s intellect, Guardian, a children’s toy made live, was Bruce’s protector, and Goblin was Bruce’s repressed rage.

Having come to terms with his issues, at least for a time, Hulk and Banner physically separated under John Bryne’s writing. Separated from the Hulk, Banner was recruited by the U.S. government to create the Hulkbusters, a government team dedicated to catching Hulk. Banner and Ross married, but this change in the character was reversed by Al Milgrom, who reunited the two, and with issue #324, returned the Hulk to his grey coloration after a second visit to K’ai and his one time love, Jarella.

Shortly after returning to Earth, Hulk took on the identity of ‘Joe Fixit’, a shadowy behind the scenes figure, working in Las Vegas on behalf of a crooked casino owner, Michael Berengetti. For months, Banner was repressed in Hulk’s mind, but slowly began to reappear. Hulk and Banner began to change back and forth again at dusk and dawn, as the character initially had, but this time, they worked together to advance both their goals, using written notes as communication. In ''The Incredible Hulk'' vol. 2, #333, the ] describes the Grey Hulk persona as strongest during the night of the new moon and weakest during the full moon.

In issue #377, David revamped the Hulk again. Doctor Leonard Samson engages the ]'s services to hypnotize Bruce Banner and force him, the Savage Hulk (Green Hulk) and Mr. Fixit (Grey Hulk) to confront Banner's past abuse at the hands of his father, Brian Banner. During the session, the four identities confront a ‘Guilt Hulk’, which sadistically torments the four with the abuse of Banner’s father. Facing down this abuse, a new, larger and smarter Hulk emerges and completely replaces the "human" Bruce Banner and Hulk personae. This Hulk is a culmination of the three aspects of Banner. He has the vast power of the Savage Hulk, the cunning of the grey Hulk and the intelligence of Bruce Banner.

Peter David then introduces the Hulk to ], a secretive organization built around an extended family of super-powered people. The family members, mostly distant cousins to each other, had codenames based in the mythos of the ], and were descendants of the founder of the group, ]. When Agamemnon leaves, he puts the Hulk in charge of the organization. The storyline ends when it is revealed Agamemnon has traded his offspring to an alien race to gain power. The Hulk leads the Pantheon against the aliens, and then moves on.

Shortly after, Hulk encounters a depraved version of himself from the future, called ]. Thrown into the future, Hulk finds himself allied with Rick Jones, now an old man, in an effort to destroy the tyrant Maestro. Unable to stop him in any other manner, Hulk uses the time machine that brought him to the future to send the Maestro back into the heart of the very Gamma Bomb test that spawned the Hulk.

In 1998, David followed Editor Bobbie Chase's suggestion, and wrote a storyline centering on the death of Betty Ross. Betty has radiation poisoning, and desperate to save her, General Thunderbolt Ross worked with Banner, hoping to save her, but they fail, and Betty dies. Following this, David left Marvel, following a conflict about the direction of the series.

] introduced the ] story arc, which opened with a cabal of Earth’s superpowers, called ], sending Hulk into deep space to protect the Earth from his destructive rampages. Hulk’s rocket, intended for a desolate, empty planet, instead crashed onto Sakaar. On Sakaar, Hulk rises from slave to king leading a rebellion, and finds love with a wife, Caiera. Shortly after, the rocket that brought Hulk to Sakaar malfunctions and explodes, setting of the planet’s destruction. Following the death of his wife, unborn child, and hundreds of millions of innocents, Hulk gathers some survivors and heads to Earth to exact revenge.

In ], Hulk confronts the members of the Illuminati, meeting them in personal combat.

==ref==
{{reflist}}

http://www.leaderslair.com/gammapeople/incarnations/incarnations.html



==Comments re: Hulk==
*'' The core of the Hulk, Bruce Banner'' I'm sure about the word ''core'' as something that will be readily understandable to all readers. A comma should follow ''Banner''.
*'' but shows a genius mind'' The source material calls him genius repeatedly. They've stated his IQ before. Just say he's a genius. If you don't have a source to back up that flat assertion, add ''{{cn}}'' for now.
*Arie Kaplan – nice guy, shorter than I expected. No editorial suggestion. I just felt like saying that.
*''writers have continued to frame Bruce Banner in similar fashions'' Similar to what? To each other's writing or to what the previous paragraph said?
*'' personalityled'' Need a space before ''led''.
*'' changing Hulk's personality to reflect changes in Banner's physiology or psyche.'' An example would help.
*Why the quotation marks around ''"gamma bomb"''? The source material simply calls it a ''gamma bomb''.
*''who'd driven'' should be ''who has''
*'' a lumbering gray form that through the wall and escapes'' Okay, we know what the Hulk is, but that sentence in and of itself could mean he turned into a giant gray blob. Also, you're missing a verb after ''that''.
*''"a hulk"'' Did the soldier use the word ''a''? An exact quote ought to have a reference, probably with a page number.
*''Although grey in his debut'' Inconsistency in spelling ''gray'' or ''grey''.
] 06:41, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

*''and months later, became'' Remove the comma. Otherwise, you have an unbalanced comma.
*'' issues #3 & #5'' Write the word ''and'' instead of using the ampersand.
*'' in issue #60'' should be either ''as of issue #60'' or ''beginning with #60''
*'' Marie Severin finished out the Hulk’s run in Tales to Astonish;'' Italicize ''Tales to Astonish''.
*'' It was during this run of stories that readers were introduced'' is unnecessarily passive. ''This run of stories introduced readers to'' would make it an active sentence.
*'' the Hulk's identity was made public.'' That's also passive. Something like ''the Hulk's identity became publicly known.'' would be active.
*'' a gamma being'' needs another word in there. Otherwise, someone at first glance might read ''gamma'' as a noun and ''being'' as a verb. How about ''gamma-powered'' or ''gamma-mutated''?
] 20:00, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

===Let's see...===
*Not sure how I want to fix that... hrmm... a core IS a center...
*fixed
*cool
*fixed
*<s>will find one</s> Used the 'unified' Hulk David introduced in #377.
*fixed
*fixed
*I think form works fine, whereas blob, mass or shape is amorphous, form reflects things like the alternate form of a man who is a werewolf, or some such. I think that might be more of a dialect/regionalism connotation.mmmmaybe 'brute'?
*<s>source will be found and entered</s> Sourced to page 8. I'm gonna put in an out-comment for the page #, since i know of no way to specifically do that with refname tags, though I wish I did.
*fixed
Part 2
*done
*done
* not sure it's needed, there's a 'became' right ahead of it.
*done
* changed, used your wording.
* same as above.

Alright, most instituted, a few not sure how I want to handle. Also, for a professor and writer, you're awfully big on the active voice. Haven't written much art history analysis, eh? AH profs seem to adore the passive voice, almost as much as black turtlenecks, thick sweaters, and pretention, lol. 'It's more academic' I used to hear. I came at this more like an analysis, without the personal response sections. Just the factual sections, none of the fun... I think a certain amount of passive voice reinforces the dispassionate nature of the article, and the encyclopedic tone.
and I'll just re-edit my 'checking off' list as I get them done. If you find more, drop a new list below, and i'll check those off too, LOL. Thanks again. ] 02:44, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

:Oh, there are plenty of reasons to write in passive voice. Sometimes, to avoid a ridiculously convoluted sentence, passive voice is the only sensible way to avoid using first or second person. Technical writing uses passive voice more often than creative writing does. Even so, ''every'' style manual says to try to avoid passive voice as a general guideline.
:Anyway, I've posted new comments above regarding the 1970s to 1990s material. ] 06:22, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

===New list===
*''Hulk continued to be published'' Until someone reaches the latter part of the sentence, they might not know whether you mean the character of the Hulk of the comic series. This should be clear from the beginning.
*'' second title, ‘’The Rampaging Hulk’’'' Magazine title should be in italics, not quotation marks.
*'' who soon was featured in a title of her own.'' That's inaccurate. She got the blood transfusion and became the She-Hulk in the first issue of her title.
*''Writers changed . . . of the Atom".'' Why does that clunky sentence use the word ''but''?
*''Under the creative team of Roger Stern and Bill Mantlo, it was established that Banner had suffered child abuse, an'' Really? I thought Peter David established that at the same time that he showed Banner to have had serious mental problems before becoming the Hulk. I read the comics back then, but I only recall David's roll in that.
*''#331marking'' You need a space after the number.
*'' Vegas heavy'' While true, that term might be clear to enough readers.
*'' a new Hulk, who has'' The comma is okay, but I think that part is better without the comma.
*'' the cunning of the gray Hulk and the intelligence of Bruce Banner.'' Style guides don't agree with each other, so Wikipedai says go with personal preference on whether you use a serial comma or not. Given the structure of that sentence, I think it would read better with a comma after ''gray Hulk''.
*'' Introduced in the Future Imperfect limited series'' What's that? An unfinished sentence?
*'' In 1998, David followed editor Bobbie Chase's suggestion to kill Betty Ross.'' Citation needed. That should be easy to find. I read an interview in which David said exactly that. One citation that can cover that whole paragraph would be best.
*'' standards comic book format,'' That first word should be ''standard'' without the ''s'' at the end, shouldn't it?
] 06:22, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

*''citing creative differences'' Citation needed.
*'' the title of the book'' is wordier than necessary. ''the book's title'' is better.
*''when it was decided'' By whom? Citation needed.
] 07:09, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

*'' After uniting the previously divided factions, the vessel Hulk was sent'' The vessel did not unite the factions.
*''almost immediately destroys'' Remove ''almost immediately''. It doesn't enhance our understanding of the outcome.
] 07:13, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

====checklist 2====
* got it, changed to full title.
* I've got the 'master version' in Word, and it doesn't do the single quote right when brought across, there are probably a few of those.
* thanks for the fix, I think I've better addressed it.
* At one point, I'd tried to get across that despite the changing staff, the names attached were still big names, but it always came out fannish, peacocky and too opinion-oriented to use. that but's an artifact, I've fixed it, I think.
* Yes. Mantlo and so on did the crossroads story, before david's tenure. I've got a few of the issues. Some of my earliest favorite comics, though nowadays, I've read a couple of the collected GNs, and soem of WWH on the stands, and that's it. I only decided to edit and fix Hulk because I don't particularly care about him that much, so it makes for great practice. I wouldn't edit ] so much, I'm a huge Wally fan, and a bigger Jay fan.
* got it
* got it
* comma fix
* comma fix
* <s>oops, the Maestro stuff goes there! Totally forgot it. I'll get it in soon.</s>

* <s>I think that's in the forum post, which may no loner be valid, it was removed from the current page.</s> got one.
* got it
* <s>also in that forum post, IIRC. </s> got it.
then...
* Ok, reworded
* Done, was concession to david A, who kept arguing at one point that it was sequential...
] 05:48, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

===other comments===
::What a lot of work you put in! Kudos to you, TX!
::I might tweak a couple things here and there, but really, this is some job you've done. The only two tweaks I'd note at this stage is 1) make sure the PH comes first after the intro, as per Exemplar, and 2) a one-line or one-sentence quote really doesn't need to be a blockquote. I'm not sure I remember the guideline exactly, but I think it suggested anything under a few lines be part of the paragraph text.
::As I said, these are tweaks, and it'd be natural for tweaks to continue after it's posted -- like what they call a shakedown flight in aviation, or previews before the Broadway opening. "Yer gonna go out gere an editor, but come back a stah...!" --] 04:03, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

:::I got the order correct now, I knew it would have to be done, but really it wasn't critical to me to reorder till now anyways. thansk, glad you like it. As to the blockquotes, I'll review those, and if you can find me that guideline, I'd be grateful! ] 05:51, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

::::You gots it: See "Block quotations" under ]. --] 16:57, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

:::::And, yeah, don't mean to be picky, and I wouldn't even mention this if I didn't know you're conscientious about active voice: How about, "Different writers have portrayed Bruce Banner, the human core of the Hulk, in different ways, but common themes persist." Same insightful comment, just changing the flow. --] 17:00, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

::::::didn't mind the edits directly to the page much, but anythign big, or throughout the page, please let me know in a comment. I've got this whole thing in Word for spellchecking and grammar stuff, and transferring both ways is a pain. I know about the Italics markup problem, can't be helped in Word much ,unless I cut n paste from here to there every time. I'll just clean it up at the very end, on here. I used all your changes except the collapseing all of it into one category. with a 12 year run, I felt david deserved his own section. His work's notable enough for that. ] 21:48, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

In terms of minor streamlining, I'm thinking of things like this, where two sentences can be combined. After all your work, I wouldn't remove content without discussion, but just streamline language after it's up. For instance:
:Stan Lee, and others have compared The Hulk in these early tales to Frankenstein's Monster. Lee wanted to use the idea of the misunderstood monster he saw in Frankenstein's Monster, and the Hulk conveyed that concept.
to
:Stan Lee and others have compared The Hulk in these early tales to the misunderstood creature ].
If Lee and other have made that comparison, then it's clear the Hulk conveyed it, so we don't have to say it specifically. Again, the content is great &mdash; I'm just the mechanic, not the car designer!--] 22:00, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

::My vote's yes, unless you'd like me to give a proofread right now.--] 22:07, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

::On second thought, how about if I proofread in dribs and drabs after it's up? This is one BIIIIG article. Hulk-sized, you might say. --] 22:08, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

:::I'll make that change now, and let you run with it after it's up. Just please put a support note ont he Hulk talk, so this doesn't look totally presumptive? Anyone following will see I've been soliciting peer-reviews and critiques as I went, so it's not a canvas or anything, but on the other hand, I don't want anyone to say I jumped the gun and no one at all could review it. ] 22:12, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 04:05, 18 February 2015

Independent comics based films

Independent-comics films
Single films Judge Dredd (1995) · Tank Girl (1995) · Barb Wire (1996) · Spawn (1997) · From Hell (2001) · Ghost World (2001) · American Splendor (2003) · Bulletproof Monk (2003) · The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen (2003) · Sin City (2005) · 300 (2007)
Franchises Hellboy: Hellboy (2004) · Hellboy 2: The Golden Army (2008)

Men in Black: Men in Black (1997) · Men in Black II (2002)

The Crow: The Crow (1994) · The Crow: City of Angels (1996)

The Mask: The Mask (1994) · Son of the Mask (2004)

Animated Hellboy: Hellboy: Sword of Storms (2006) · Hellboy: Blood and Iron (2007)


Cap research

http://www.geocities.com/mbrown123/greatest_comics/captainamerica1.html includes date.

this marvel release http://www.amazon.com/Marvel-Masterworks-Golden-Captain-America/dp/0785116192 challenges the 'marvel knows best' idea.

http://scoop.diamondgalleries.com/scoop_article.asp?ai=9899&si=123 This auction house image has a fully graded sealed version, with blue stripes and date on cover.

Comments

The templates look good, but can I suggest using something thicker than the bullets used between titles? Instead of ·, use •. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 15:05, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

A couple of other items: There should be spacing between "Batman (year)" in the first template. Also, Batman got split, while Superman didn't (and I realize the latter has an odd continuity issue). Is there a way to address this? —Erik (talk • contrib) - 15:46, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

um are you going to make a Article called Indie Comics films, cause if you arnt, you might want to fix that.Phoenix741 15:47, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
yeah, I'll look into starting one of those before i bring this live. Help with that would be great. ThuranX 16:54, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Also, what about The Crow: Salvation and The Crow: Wicked Prayer for the second template? —Erik (talk • contrib) - 15:48, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I'll try those out. missing a few is bound to happen. ThuranX 16:54, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Ah-hah! the reason I didn't is they were DTV. The promotional release didn't really count as I see it. Both are discussed in the Crow franchise article, which my heading links to. That's why. But thanks for making me defend it, good to have a rationale. I hope to cut n paste this entire review, as an archived section, to the talk pages for these two once they're ready to go, so new editors will have some ideas about my thinking. ThuranX 16:57, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Excellent initiative!! And thank you for asking.
The only thing I'd advise against is the "TBA" and "forthcoming" items. They're not really in keeping with WP:DATED or, in some instances, "Misplaced Pages is not a crystal ball". Things in the movie business especially change so much, and people float rumors about projects so often, that it'd be more encyclopedic, I think, to stick with confirmed, existing product. In an any event, they'd need citations. (Along these lines, The "in development" items List of Marvel Comics films is problematic to me, even with the copious footnotes, since "in development" can mean "we're thinking about it and maybe someday we'll have a meeting to find a writer". But that's a whole big other thing I don't have the energy for...!)
Obviously, I'm guessing you'll have a Marvel Comics films header.
I might use the header "Independent-comics films", to match that article titled Independent film. (Also, the compound modifier takes a hyphen, per AP Stylebook and other standard punctuation/grammar sources Misplaced Pages recognizes.) Also, "comics" in this case wouldn't be capitalized since it's not part of a proper-noun phrase, as "DC Comics" is.
I can think of at least one Archie Comics film (a TV-movie), and there was a Fawcett Comics Captain Marvel serial in the 1940s, so maybe "Independent-comics films and misc."
These suggestions are just polish. Nice work on the big picture!! --Tenebrae 13:34, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I"m not particularly interested in the Made-for-TV stuff, nor the Older DC works. I figure that the 'list of' pages can be holistic, but that most readers will want to find out about the more recent works. Further, the Batman and Superman templates have far more about all appearances of those characters. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ThuranX (talk • contribs)
Not sure what the reasoning is that "most readers will want to find out about the more recent works". That's more in keeping with a magazine than an encyclopedia, which needs to be, well, encyclopedic. --Tenebrae 21:46, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
What I mean is, most casual readers who are on a DC film page are likely to be more interested in the recent franchises and such than in an obscure serial from the 40's, like hop harrigan. I suppose a link to the serials listing on the comics list might be efffective, but to add all the serials would be to make the template huge and clunky, which I long ago learned was a bad thing. Thoughts on the added 'serials' listing? ThuranX 22:05, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
that didn't work so well, so I jsut refined the original list, removing tons of stuff that had nothign to do with DC based films, and added the serials. WHoever had compiled the list felt anyt character now owned by DC qualified, I removed any that weren't actually DC at all, like Doc Savage, or who were acquired after production, like the Fawcett characters. The rest are now in the template. ThuranX 22:14, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Good job on it so far, bro. Just a few random questions and stuff though. With the DC template; what about adding the (dreadful, in my opinion) 1997 Justice League of America film *shudders*...? Also, have you considered adding in an animated films section, as there are two new ones in the pipeline (Justice League: The New Frontier and Superman: Doomsday)? There are many older ones from the 90's or more recently (i.e. The Batman Superman Movie, inspired by the animated TV shows) but I couldn't find the right links. About the superheroe and non-superhero DC films - is it worth splitting the likes of Catwoman from Road To Perdition, for example? Another thing is that I noticed you've got the Batman film in the 'single films' section highlighted along with the year which will need editing. Lastly, I just wanted to add that as you've mentioned, I agree that the serials are of no real interest. Just throwing that in. With the indie comics template; I noticed that The Mask is down twice (the franchise, which is understandable, AND with the single films). Also, The Crow unfortunately had a third film, The Crow: Stairway to Heaven. You may want to add it to the franchise. That's about all for now. Didn't mean to nit pick or anything, just thought I'd throw in my two cents. I'm glad someone's done this DC one though, been thinking who's gonna get it done. Thanks for the template so far. Keep it up. => Harish101 18:03, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

The Batman 1966 film is in the single film listing because it did not have a sequel, but rather was a single theatrical release adam west film. It's not part of either franchise. Justice league was made for tv, not theattrical. the Animated series have their own templates, and would be too huge. This is for live action theatrical releases of properties owned/managed/produced by DC at time of release/Licensing, not those acquired later. As was noted above, the Crow franchise shifted to DTV, which I've decided not to cover, it's already in the articles for the two listed here. thank yo ufor the critique, not sure how you found the page though. ThuranX 05:10, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Blame mindless wiki-browsing for finding this ;) ...With the 1966 Batman movie, I meant that the actual year was highlighted as part of the link, didn't know if that was meant to be so. Ahh, I understand about the rest now. Fair play. I looked into the Animated DC films, and noticed that Justice League: The New Frontier is not based on/part of the Bruce Timm Animated Universe, which the template only allows for (this film is based on a graphic novel). I dunno if it will still be a part of it though, as he's apparently still producing. Just letting ya know. Curious to know - how do you start on something like this? Harish101 15:58, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Oh, yeah. I see that, and it's fixed. Interesting regarding the Timm situation, might be time to bring that up as a change over there, I dunno. Anyways, I'm sure other editors will have thoughtsonce this goes live, which I think will be this weekend. finally, thanks for the comments. I do appreciate them. ThuranX 03:36, 14 August 2007 (UTC)


Hey man, just curious to know when this will actually get put to use? One more thought, since I'm back here - where the franchises section is, as this is more about the films I was wondering if it's necessary to link the parts that say "Batman(1989-97)" and "Batman(2005 - )" twice to the same Batman page, along with linking Swamp Thing? Just wondered. Didn't seem entirely necessary, from a user's point of view (mainly Batman, unless you can link it to the film series pages, or even considering having two pages, one of which for the reboot franchise). Just putting in ideas as I assume you can do something about that. => Harish101 13:53, 31 August 2007 (UTC)


I don't know if you want any help with this, but The Rocketeer (film) fits as well. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 04:35, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Right, thanks, I'll get that this weekend. ThuranX 11:56, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
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