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Reference Desk Guidelines. Let's fix this properly.

I'd like to suggest that we make a serious effort to solve this problem. We waste FAR too much energy on re-re-re-debating this.

My proposal is to split the decision-making in to two chunks.

• CHUNK #1: What things are violations of our guidelines that rise to the level where some action has to be taken?
• CHUNK #2: What are the procedures that respondents should follow in the event of problems with a question?

...with the clear understanding that "Be Bold" and "Ignore All Rules" will certainly apply here - at least in cases which are not clear-cut or simply not covered here. SteveBaker (talk) 00:10, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

CHUNK #1: What things are violations?

I'm thinking that we imagine a few formalized classes of problem:

• CLASS A: Questions that are perfectly OK.
• CLASS B: Questions that are phrased badly, but can be answered with care.
• CLASS C: Questions that require discussion and consensus here before any action should be taken.
• CLASS D: Questions that we'd prefer that nobody answer ("Don't feed the troll")
• CLASS E: Questions that demand immediate 'hatting' of the question and all of the answers.
• CLASS F: Questions that demand immediate removal of the question, the title and all of the answers.

We could say that (for example) overt personal attacks are CLASS F and should be removed on sight. Maybe we decide that questions relating to medical advice are CLASS D or maybe E. Maybe requests for relationship advice are CLASS D, but requests for advice on car repair are class B.

Can we come to some consensus as to what kinds of questions fall into which categories?

To be clear, we would not expect our OP's to understand these distinctions...and if a question falls into classes E or F, we'd have some standard templates explaining why we're declining to answer. SteveBaker (talk) 00:10, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

COMMENTS BELOW HERE PLEASE

Class A should be the complement of Classes C-F, in my opinion. What perfectly acceptable questions have in common is that they have nothing wrong with them, so I don't think it makes sense to try to give this class a positive definition. Whether a question is silly or offensive or ignorant shouldn't affect its acceptability here. Not only are these very subjective attributes, but one of the whole points of the Ref desk is to combat ignorance and reward curiosity!

Class F for me is simply threats and hate speech. Even "personal attacks" probably shouldn't be outright removed without notice, because many people here don't see the distinction between attacking a position and attacking a person. E.g. "That argument is nonsense" might be slightly rude, but it's not a personal attack.

I think the best way to proceed is to start with the minimal attributes and examples that we can get consensus for. For instance, I hope everyone agrees on threats and hate speech. But I expect some disagreement with me on the personal attack issue. So we should just put the threats etc. in class F, and hold off on debating/discussing the harder bits until we have a core settled on. Thanks for starting this up, SemanticMantis (talk) 16:00, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree that the union of Classes C through F is the complement of the union of Classes A and B. That is, every question either belongs to Classes A&B or to Classes C through F. With Class B, we should restate/reword the question to put it in Class A and answer it. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:41, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Class F is, in my opinion, very small. The only questions that should be deleted are questions by banned users or trolls. A question containing hate speech should not be deleted but hatted, because it is easier for the blocking admin not to have to go into the history to see the hate speech. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:51, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

I will revise my comment about hate speech. Non-admin editors should not remove hate speech. Removing it makes it necessary for an admin to view the history to identify the offense. However, non-admin editors should request that administrators redact the hate speech and block the offending editor. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:15, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I think that what is important for us collectively at the Reference Desk is to be cautious in acting on questionable questions. In particular, deleting a question with answers is disruptive, and if the question was by a troll, that is exactly what the troll wants. Also, even if a question should have been deleted before being answered (because the user was banned), it is better to hat the question and its answers than to delete it afterward. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:51, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

For sure, we can add a procedure (see discussion below) that when we get a Class B question, one of us should simply re-state it in the form of a new Class A question, then have everyone answer the restated version. That might actually be useful because it would help to train our OP's into what forms of question they are allowed to ask. Heck, we could even have a "RESTATED AS:" template that would put some fancy language in there.

"Your question (as stated) could not be answered directly because (yadda yadda guideline) but perhaps restating it gives you what you needed to know: (yadda yadda?)"

So:

Can you give me advice about how I could throw a baseball faster?

Your question (as stated) could not be answered directly because it's a request for personal advice, but perhaps restating it gives you what you needed to know:

What techniques are available to throw baseballs faster?

But my point is that if it's our policy to do that, then we need to know when something is Class B in order that we have solid grounds for restating it and not cause huge arguments here about people who do that unnecessarily - or who fail to do it when needed. SteveBaker (talk) 16:50, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

I would support a "restated as" template. IMO, nearly every question can be rephrased to suit our guidelines. The baseball example is innocuous. The more contentious case is requests for medical advice. I'm personally fine with restating and giving some WP links for medical information, as well as linking the medical disclaimer. But I suspect not everyone will be on board with that. I also want to bring up the idea of removing responses that give medical advice, rather than questions that seek it. But I'm not sure where that fits in with this discussion, or how many would support that change to our procedures. SemanticMantis (talk) 17:43, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

I'd support that, but I think I'd want a mandatory mention here so that the deletion doesn't simply vanish without trace. SteveBaker (talk) 17:52, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

I would suggest removing the answers and hatting the original question, stating that we do not provide medical advice and that answers that may provide medical advice have been deleted. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:13, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

What types of requests for advice other than medical or legal advice must be declined? Robert McClenon (talk) 02:43, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

If some kid shows up and asks for advice on how to "get girls" (always loved that phrase), we shouldn't launch into an essay about respect and personal hygiene (which would likely become a debate about the best way to "get girls", since there's little consensus on that subject). We should link to one or two websites about that sort of thing and be done with it. I think we should provide links rather than our own advice wherever that's possible. We could also provide gentle hints about learning to make effective use of a search engine, a la teach a man to fish, lest the person become dependent on Reference Desk for all information about the world. We're not here as Google operators. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:37, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Ok, so that has nothing to do with declining a request, which was your question. So it's out of place, but I'm not removing it. I spent too much time writing it. :) ―Mandruss ☎ 06:57, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I think that there are a few questions that can reasonably be ignored, and how to "get girls" may be one of those. Requests for legal and medical advice should be formally declined. We can work out the details of how they are declined. A few questions should simply be ignored, and Mandruss has a good example. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:11, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that's why I've tried to separate out the classification question (above) from the procedure question (below). The reason (I think) that these discussions so often get derailed is the muddying of those two things. We may agree that "getting girls" is an issue we don't want to answer but don't wish to punish either (so Class C or D maybe)...but there are deeper questions...should we also actively prevent (by deleting) or discourage (eg by hatting or templating) people who answer the question anyway?

I feel that if we could agree to a set of classifications - "getting girls" being Class X, "veternary advice" being Class Y - then that would be progress. In my ideal world, we'd have this set of buckets - and we'd drop each problematic situation into one of them. When new problems come up ("How can I sabotage the brakes on my wife's car? (This is for a novel I'm writing!)"), all we have to debate is "Is this kind of question Class X or Class Y?"...and having done that and obtained some sort of consensus, we'd already know what the procedure is in terms of hatting, ignoring, or deleting - and whether we do that to the answers and/or the question and/or the title.

If we can debate the procedures and the classification matters separately, then I think this will go more smoothely.

SteveBaker (talk) 21:41, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I personally think that, although splitting the classification questions from the procedure questions seemed like a useful approach, it isn't helping. I think that the classification should, in general, determine what the procedure is. If the question is hattable, the question should be hatted. I think that the split was a useful idea but has proved to make work. Anyone else? Robert McClenon (talk) 15:41, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

We can come up with archetypical examples for the classes, but there's just know way to build a rigorous ontology of all questions we might get here. Even one person would have a very hard time of it, let alone our consensus process. My opinion is that "how to get girls" is totally valid, there are gallons of ink spilled on the topic, and we can give refs for that. I thought the classification and procedure separation was mostly to help keep track of the conversation here, and in practice, the former should determine the latter, as you say. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:09, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Classes E and F, as defined above, already have answers implied in their definitions (hat or delete). So does Class B (restate and answer). Do we really think that we need to answer classification and procedure separately? I don't. I think that the separation was a good try, but is not helping. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:09, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, point taken Robert & Semandic. I kinda crossed my own line there didn't I?! I still want to separate out classification from procedure - but my problem in creating the 'Class' list was that I implied procedure. Let me have think about it and see if I can write a list of classes without reference to procedure or consequences. I think that coming up with a set of examples may be the only way...but then I'm probably giving the answer as a part of the question. Tricky. SteveBaker (talk) 19:09, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

As to "how to get girls", I disagree that it is "totally valid". The question, when asked without context, is objectifying and dehumanizing to girls, implying that the poster thinks that other editors can provide magic guidance on how to "get" them. That is probably why Steve mentioned it. It certainly isn't a totally valid question at this Misplaced Pages reference desk. I personally think that it should just be ignored, but that is my opinion. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:09, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Fair enough. I agree the phrasing is demeaning, but I see our goal here as being to help people find information, even if they are bigots or sexist or whatever. So sure, some people might post refs to crappy PUA sites, and other users can post refs to how that is silly and dehumanizing, etc. Sure, you're free to ignore such questions, but I'd like to have the opportunity to give the hypothetical asker some literature that might help them better understand human interactions (and not have my responses removed or hatted). Depending on the phrasing of the hypothetical question, I might indeed ignore because the case seems hopeless, but I also might want to try to help. SemanticMantis (talk) 18:43, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

CHUNK #2: What is the procedure for answering questions?

Again, I'm suggesting that since this is a process rather than a linear set of rules, we have a simple flow-chart, such as the one I've promoted before.

Perhaps the box labelled "Does the question violate our guidelines?" can be broken out for CLASS A through F question classes? Perhaps you don't agree with the set of procedures that this diagram encapsulates?

What should this flow-chart look like? SteveBaker (talk) 00:10, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

COMMENTS BELOW HERE PLEASE

Jokes in small type is good, ignoring trolls is good. I believe that our discussions here of potential trolls are more "troll feeding" than any good faith answers we might give them. Ask a high school teacher - if a student asks about e.g. masturbation in a trolling manner, the best thing to do is give a good answer and keep a straight face. If you get flustered and tell them they can't ask the question, the whole class gets disrupted. Also, there's the notion that many of us share - that our answers/refs aren't just for OPs, they also serve a wide range of readers and future searchers. So good answers to a question asked in bad faith can still be good for the desks. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:05, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

The problem is not with a one-off question on an off-color topic. Sure, feel free to either ignore questions that upset you...or provide a straight-up answer. Fine.

The problem lies with the persistent troll...planet-colors-guy or how-to-import-car-X-into-country-Y-guy, for example.

Giving straight answers is OK for a while...it's actually necessary because for a while, we have no way to know that this is a troll. But pretty soon it gets ridiculous. Sure, the first time planet-colors-guy asked how such-and-such planet would look if you were in orbit around it, we gave it our best shot at a good answer...it was actually a very interesting question...the second time, it seemed like he was just confused by out first answer...by the third time, I think we were all losing patience and WP:AGF became challenging. But after the 5th or 6th variation on the same damned question, it became clear that we were being trolled - and that continuing to provide answers was not the correct strategy. For many trolls, who seem to crave attention more than anything, even coming here to discuss the problem gives them some sort of weird kick. So WP:DFTT becomes the only way forward. That means that we need a policy to deny answers, deny discussion, deny, deny, deny. Just don't talk to them or about them or delete them or do anything that shows that we've noticed them. That's the only proven strategy against a determined troll.

Of course we also have clever trolls who ask a decent question to get us on-board...but if the only way they can continue to get our attention is to keep asking good/interesting questions, then they are no longer trolls.

SteveBaker (talk) 16:33, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

I honestly have no problem with the car importer guy. He posts rarely, signs with the same username, and is very easy to ignore. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:21, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

I would like to hear, either in this paragraph or the one above, from User:Medeis, who has been a critic of how we respond to questionable questions. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:42, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

I haven't got much to say that I haven't said before: We shouldn't be giving advice of any sort that licensed professionals give, such questions should be removed or hatted. There's an intractable faction here that insists obvious trolls deserve more respect than established users. I found the immediate criticisms of my recent "swing obsession" question at the science desk quite amazing. Had I said the same things to an anonymous "new" user (like the one who asked who to sort users by race and whether they are historians) I'd have been castigated for biting the newby. Basically I am busy in the real world, and at this point I am coming here mostly to relax, not get in circular policy debates. I suggest and suspect we will deal with trolling as we always have, on an as it occurs basis, because no policy on that matter will be respected by all editors here. BTW, I prefer a quick note on my talk page saying, "you might want to comment on this discussion" rather than being summoned like Barbara Eden by having my lamp rubbed. :) μηδείς (talk) 19:00, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Since you, Medeis, sometimes appoint yourself as the policewoman for this Reference Desk, I would have appreciated some input as to what you think is and is not acceptable, because some of us don't like being jerked to WP:ANI either. Unfortunately, my conclusion, and Medeis is welcome to provide me with other information, is that Medeis simply reserves the right to pull us to ANI if she doesn't like the way that we answer questions. We can't do anything about that unless she will clarify. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:02, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Aside from threats and hate speech, I'm thinking that a focus more on removal of responses that violate our guidelines than removal of questions would be more welcoming, and put the burden of good behavior on us, where it belongs. IMO providing refs (like the name of a medical condition) is fine even if a question asks for medical advice. We can even suggest/ demand that all informational responses to advice-seeking questions also include a clear link to the medical disclaimer.

But if a respondent gives medical advice (defined by Kainaw), then we zap that response and politely notify the respondent, WP:BRD style. I know full well we aren't a physical library reference desk, but in that case the onus is on the staff, not the asker (again, with exceptions for dangerous or highly disruptive behavior). Seriously, I think some of us should go to a library desk and ask for medical advice about abdominal pain. I'll bet a good trouting that you won't be escorted to the door. I'll also wager that they will not give you medical advice. I suspect they'll show you to some books and possible some contact information for local medical clinics. We have many differences from those desks, but I think we can follow their model on how to deal with advice-seeking questions. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:21, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

I will say again that I am not convinced that threats and hate speech need a special category that should be deleted, unless we explicitly state that they should be deleted and redaction requested immediately. I would prefer to leave them standing if we expect a blocking and redacting administrator to be quick to block and redact. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:58, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't think they need a special category, I'm just listing them as examples that (so far) we seem to all agree are definitely a problem that we need to deal with. The idea was to start with examples that we could all agree on. Actually they are really rare in my experience, so perhaps they aren't the best examples in that regard. I don't especially care if they are hatted/revdel, ignored, etc. Hatting is sort of a nice compromise between doing nothing and deleting, but it's also fairly toothless, imo, and in many cases even attracts attention due to the way they are displayed. SemanticMantis (talk) 22:03, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

None of this is likely to address the real problem, which is disagreement over where the line is between "information" and "advice". ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:01, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

That recent response where you said excessive teeth grinding is called bruxism? That's medical information. The question was seeking advice, if I recall correctly, but you just gave info with reference, and that is fine by me. Most of us seem happy to agree that we can apply User:Kainaw/Kainaw's_criterion] to decide if a question is seeking advice. I think it works equally well to decide if a response is giving advice. The terms "diagnosis, prognosis, or treatment" all have very clear descriptions in their articles. It seems that Medeis is one of the few regulars here that frequently removes questions on grounds of advice and the removal is questioned/challenged by others. Most of the other editors who remove posts don't seem to cause problems when they do it. These are just my general impressions, of course I botched that restoration of a question by a blocked user recently, and occasionally non-Medeis users remove things and are later disputed. SemanticMantis (talk) 20:18, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

I told him to see a doctor and/or dentist to find out more. What I objected to there was some autocratic (NOT Medeis, FYI) deciding that it should be zapped. I favor hatting rather than censoring, in most cases. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:31, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

I thought you had included a link to bruxism, perhaps I was mistaken. I couldn't find a working link to that question and response. As to the removal, Misplaced Pages:Reference_desk/Guidelines/Medical_advice#Dealing_with_questions_asking_for_medical_advice says that removal is discouraged, and that "Generally speaking, answers are more likely to be sanctioned than questions." -- this is what I've been talking about for a while now, that we should police responses more than questions. SemanticMantis (talk) 22:07, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I linked to bruxism, because he talked about teeth-grinding, and bruxism is a more technical term for teeth-grinding, and in my opinion the OP needed to be aware that bruxism can have bad long-term effects and he should see a doctor/dentist about it. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:15, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree with the flow-chart. It's so common sense that it's difficult to imagine a serious argument against it.

However, the guidelines step is the weak link. I think a more strict guidelines document needs to exist.

As much as I hate rules creep, irregular enforcement is a 100x worse. Vague guidelines give people an opening to be bullies whenever they like, without anybody being able to say for sure that they shouldn't have.

I think the way to generate such a doc would be for someone to come up with a draft, and then debate the fine points until there's a consensus. Trying to generate a consensus from whole cloth is too much of an uphill battle.

Aside from that, I'd be strongly in favor of any new rules that limit the back and forth side conversation, nitpicking, and other "easy" replies that allow people to feel like they're participating without actually providing information that answers the question. I feel like that's a much more severe problem than the occasional stupid drama about what should or should not be censored. APL (talk) 23:08, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Comments below "COMMENTS BELOW HERE PLEASE"

As I've said before, this is a Jonathan Wild situation. Rather than putting together elaborate rules which aren't going to be read or followed (as we have no effective means of enforcement), we should address the real issue:

• Is there any sanction short of a topic ban which will prevent Medies' hatting and deleting of threads?
• If not, should Medies be topic-banned?
• If not, are we agreed that Medies' behaviour is in fact acceptable, and that we should stop discussing it here?

Tevildo (talk) 19:38, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

The issue is that nobody can answer those questions with any authority.

Not only to we not have the authority to ban Medies simply because we think it would make the ref-desk better or more useful, there will surely be some people who disagree with that assessment.

With no rules, or rules so expansive they can mean anything, we can't easily make any arguments along the lines you're proposing. For or against. APL (talk) 23:08, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't want to make this be about individuals - but since you brought it up...Medeis believes she IS following the rules. Many other people do not believe that's the case. That's happening because the rules are not well spelled-out. Fix the rules so that they can clearly be explained, easily followed, and modified as needed over time - and I'm fairly sure that Medeis will follow them. This would allow people who wish to be wiki-cop to do the job with full community backing. Instead of objecting to what Medeis does, we'd be able to thank her for upholding our rules. People who violate a clearly laid out set of rules are much easier to sanction than people who are merely applying slightly 'off' interpretations of vague rules.

If we can do what I'm trying to make happen, then I firmly believe that we'll have a rapid sorting out of people. Those who believe that they are following the rules, will actually follow the rules. People who used to object on grounds of differing interpretations of rules would have less need to do that. And those who truly do wantonly ignore the rules will very clearly have infracted them and that makes it much easier for us to correct their behavior or (eventually) kick them out with a topic ban.

I'm increasingly of the belief that the problem here is the vague rules and the vague procedures for following them. Clarify them - and I firmly believe that we'll fix at least 90% of these bust-ups.

SteveBaker (talk) 23:37, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Hopefully true, and I would support implementation of your flowchart. However - and this is a big however - the problem will arise with the "Is the OP an annoying troll?" decision box. I agree with your suggested action (or lack of action) in this sort of case, but how do we enforce it? What steps can we take (not "should we take" - what official procedures are available to us?) to sanction users who hat and delete posts merely because the question is annoying? "Covenants, without the Sword, are but Words, and of no strength to secure a man at all." (Hobbes). Tevildo (talk) 22:33, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

I never did respond to this, but I'm thinking no, just no. The flowchart should be more like: Is this a question I can answer? Then answer. Otherwise, is it answerable? Then wait and let somebody answer. Otherwise, does it have some meaning? Then explain why it's unanswerable. Otherwise, you can ponder why you're being trolled, and if you're sure, you can hat it if you feel like it. After whatever you write, look and see if somebody's going to gripe about guidelines. If so, make your best case that it's OK by the guidelines to answer, and if that happens to be right, so much the better. :) And try not to forget to Just Edit The Friendly Article to avoid confusing the next person. Wnt (talk) 00:29, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Semi-Protection

I see that there is a semi-protected edit request for the Miscellaneous Desk. Does that mean that it has in fact been semi-protected? If so, that implies that semi-protection is a reasonable temporary measure for Reference Desks. Based on the assumption, I will request semi-protection for the Science Desk due to the troll. I hadn't thought that semi-protection was considered an acceptable option for the desks. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:17, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Instead of SP for refdesk(s), isn't it possible to temp-block specific IPs from specific page(s)?  —Eric, aka:71.20.250.51 (talk) 20:25, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

IP addresses change. Most IP addresses (including yours) are dynamic rather than truly static. The Science Desk IP address has changed. Range-blocking is possible but is messy, and it is my understanding that most admins do not like to do range-blocks. That is one of the reasons why semi-protection is the usual way of dealing with disruptive or mildly disruptive editing from IP addresses. That is one of the reasons why we advise unregistered editors to register and create an account. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:37, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Shouldn't semi-protected refdesks have some sort of notice at the top, something like...

"Sorry, IPs, you need to jump through hoops and wait for your response to become obsolete"  —E:71.20.250.51 (talk) 20:52, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Typically a little silver lock will be posted at the top. And of course if the edit button is unavailable and only says "view source", then you know it's protected. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:40, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

And you don't have to jump through many hoops. The talk page is monitored pretty frequently. You can post your reasonable question here. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:42, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

"Typically", perhaps; in this case, no "little silver lock". At least as of 22:08, 14 February 2015 (UTC)  —E:71.20.250.51 (talk) 22:08, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Someone forgot to post that. It's independent of the actual protection. But if there's no edit tab, then it's protected. And if you had a registered and confirmed account, you could edit it, and you would see this at the top: "Note: This page has been semi-protected so that only autoconfirmed users can edit it. If you need any help getting started with editing, see the New contributors' help page." ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:20, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

I put a lock there. Now someone will have to remember to remove it in a few days. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:58, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, after the aforementioned "fact". ~:71.20.250.51 (talk) 12:30, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

The admin forgot to put it there after semi-protecting the page. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 13:05, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Although I know about the lack of 'Edit' tab means a page is protected (thus my edit requests above), 92.239.221.31 did not (see this Help desk post).  —E:71.20.250.51 (talk) 01:02, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, and that's the purpose of the help desk. To help people. The fact that someone has to ask a question there does not necessarily prove the need for a change. Far more often it simply means they don't know everything yet. That said, I wish admins would always add the lock with the protection, or, better yet, I wish that could be made automatic by the software. It would simplify our world just a little, and lord knows Misplaced Pages needs simplifying. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:16, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The "need for a change" comment should be directed to Robert McClenon; I have simply provided input from an IP's perspective (try it!).  —IP:71.20.250.51 (talk) 01:24, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

I think those of us with any experience have a pretty good understanding of the IP's perspective. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:29, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

If I were to edit logged out, it would be difficult to tell my edits from 71.20.250.51 because we are using Verizon. However, it would be more useful for unregistered editors to create accounts and see it from the perspective of registered editors. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:00, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Well, sometimes changes are made by "registered editors" either without an understanding of, appreciation for, or with unintended consequences to, the IP community.  —IP=71.20.250.51 (talk) 03:23, 15 February 2015 (UTC) —Edited:03:38, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

And what does fact that have to do with you? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 05:18, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Huh? Is that an attempt at "intentional introduction of grammatical errors intended as humor"?  ;)  —71.20.250.51 (talk) 05:46, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

No, that was a goof. Should be "What does that fact have to do with you?" ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 07:03, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

What does having only one of the reference desks missing an 'Edit' tab (and no lock icon), and seeing "Please do not ask knowledge questions on this page. This talk page is where the reference desk itself is discussed. To choose an appropriate reference desk to visit..." on the page notice, even though I was instructed to do so on the previous page notice, and was admonished for doing so, and then noticing that I was not the only IP affected, and ... yadda, yadda, yadda ... -- you mean, like that?  —E:71.20.250.51 (talk) 12:22, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

If you fail to see the connection between my experience and the topic of 'Semi-protection', then so-be-it.  —E71.20.250.51 (talk) 12:37, 15 February 2015 (UTC) --edit; grammar:12:43, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

I see that the topic of 'Semi-protection' is directly related to the IP's experience, because he has been impacted by semi-protection. However, I fail to see the relevance of the IP's experience to the Reference Desk in general, because the IP has never explained why he chooses not to create an account, and he certainly hasn't explained why he thinks that he then has a right to complain about being impacted by semi-protection, which he could work around. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:00, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

It was unknown that the IP needed to acquire a "right to complain", especially since the IP in question was simply attempting to provide a suggestion followed up by responses to what the IP perceived as condescending comments from "those of us with any experience".  —IP=71.20.250.51 (talk) 21:21, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

The issue comes down to "How badly do you want to edit?" prior to the impending expiration of the protection. And the answer apparently is "Not badly enough to create an account." ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:12, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

For the record, though, Bugs's implication that there might be something wrong with an editor who declines to register an account, or that such an editor is considered a second-class citizen for not doing so, is not shared by everyone here (and is, as far as I know, contrary to Misplaced Pages policy). —Steve Summit (talk) 18:41, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

By that reasoning, semi-protection would also be against policy. I say again, "How badly does the user want to edit?" during the semi time (which should be expired by now). ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 18:51, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't expect to change your mind, but I've decided not to let your relentless prejudice against IP editors go unchallenged here. —Steve Summit (talk) 19:52, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

I am not prejudiced against IP editors in general. Your claim is a falsehood. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 19:56, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Missing Post!

Hello, Planet retrograding motion post seems to be missing, any idea why? Can it be re-entered for further discussion? -- (Angelos|Angelus (talk) 08:15, 15 February 2015 (UTC))

Removed here and that's all I know about it. ―Mandruss ☎ 08:47, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Maybe because you're disguising your user ID. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 11:39, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

No, that's an inappropriate characterisation. Misplaced Pages:Signatures#Customizing how everyone sees your signature explicitly licenses users to use nicknames. It doesn't define "nickname", and it seems that as long as the other rules are followed (not forging another user's name, not being disruptive, etc), you can make your signature be any damn thing you like. Your real user name is only ever a mouse hover away. -- Jack of Oz 20:38, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

The thing is, he went from Russell.mo to this totally unrelated Angelos or whatever. But if there's no rule against that, fine. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 04:24, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm surprised you're only raising this issue after so many years of living with users who practise it. User:scs, for example, uses the nickname "Steve Summit". That may well be his RL name for all I know, but is it a recognised "nickname" of scs? I hardly think so. The reverse is more likely to be the case. User:Flinders Petrie uses a much longer version for his sig ("Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie"), again the reverse of the usual way of nicknames. User:Skyring signs himself as "Pete". Many other examples. -- Jack of Oz 06:49, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Thought I was in trouble for a moment. In my case, the exceedingly arrogant, daffy (dug alone sometimes in skin-coloured jamies), eugenics-supporting archæologist I named my account after had three name forms, Flinders Petrie (the short form), Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie (full form which sounds oh so fun which is why I use it), and SWMFP. The Angelos thing threw me for a loop once, but then I acknowledged the change and just got on with wikiing. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 27 Shevat 5775 14:01, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

I think you likely meant to simply ask whether or not the four planets can under go apparent retrograde motion at the same time which I believe they can (contrary to the first answer), thus we can restore it or you ask again and be more specific if you like. Either way I don't think the post should have been removed. -Modocc (talk) 12:55, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

I've restored it. -Modocc (talk) 13:29, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Very good. I usually understand an editor's logic in hatting or deleting, but this one's kind of a puzzler. Medeis will need to explain it. (Or let it alone, as the case may be.) ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 13:37, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

• I apologize, my action was inappropriate. μηδείς (talk) 14:18, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree that the action of deleting a post to which there had been multiple replies was inappropriate. However, I agree with Baseball Bugs, and think that Medeis will have to explain why she thought it was necessary to remove the post after a lengthy reply. Even if the post was a troll post, and I do not think that it was a troll post, just a question with seriously wrong assumptions, I do not think that removal of the question and its answers was in order; Medeis caused a Streisand effect by deleting the post and all of the replies. Medeis was asked to offer her opinions on guidelines for the Reference Desks, and I thought that her reply declined to help us. I, for one, want an explanation beyond an admission that it was inappropriate, which appears to mean that Medeis gives herself the right to respond randomly to posts at the Reference Desks. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:56, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for restoring it friends This link confused me... I'll discuss it in the original post if required... -- (Angelos|Angelus (talk) 18:49, 15 February 2015 (UTC))

References

1. http://www.theplanetstoday.com/index.html

As a matter of good practice, I'd like to also request a good clear edit summary for any removal. The omission of an edit summary gives the appearance of trying to be inconspicuous in the page history. The "trolling" comment that was added and then removed one edit later (why?) could have been the edit summary. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:08, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

That contradicts what has been said here many times in the past - that trolling should be removed with a minimum of feeding the troll. To me, if you say "rv trolling", you're feeding the troll. So what's the solution? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 04:23, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

That's correct, the only ways to combat trolls are to ignore them (thus starving them and making them mad) or out-troll them (somewhat more effective and kind of fun if you have time for such things/are apathetic enough). Unfortunately, you can't really point out trolling without looking like it's getting to you (thus feeding trolls) and that would include edit summaries. Other than having a discussion in the talk page each time there's an obvious troll about and then deleting/hatting sans mention of trolling, I don't really see any way to deal with it that doesn't feed the troll. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 27 Shevat 5775 04:53, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protecting the page is good way to choke them off, but us mere mortals aren't allowed to do that. We have to go through a troll-feeding process to try to get it done. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 04:57, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)It's also somewhat disruptive as IPs can't ask questions then. Counter-trolling is also effective, but can border on disruptive and kind of mean itself as one the best ways to do it is to 1-UP the troll. So within the bounds of what's acceptable, hatting and such with minimal shows of annoyance or caring (as if a fly is being swatted away) and the troll might lose interest as they and go elsewhere. I speak as a former troll of some considerable skill years back (once enraged an entire chan for instance). Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 27 Shevat 5775 05:08, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

The only way to really effectively deal with a troll is to make them feel completely invisible, and there is no way to do that within the functionality of our current software. Therefore we have to accept some small level of feeding and hope it's not enough to sustain them. The reason for the removal is already clear enough to the troll, and the removal itself feeds them. In many cases, the individual won't know about page histories, so they won't see the edit summary anyway. Note that the method used in this particular case, inserting a temporary comment in the page content, is based in the assumption that the troll knows how to read a page history but not a diff within it! ―Mandruss ☎ 06:52, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Aside: formatting of ref links

@Russell.mo and Sluzzelin: see {{reflist-talk}}. DMacks (talk) 05:24, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Aha! Thanks for fixing it, DMacks. ---Sluzzelin talk 05:42, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Thought I'd let you no, "it wasn't me" - automatic occurrence... -- (Angelos|Angelus (talk) 07:18, 16 February 2015 (UTC))

Theres more than a few talk pages that need that. Thank you! Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 27 Shevat 5775 14:03, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

On semi-protecting the desks

Is it true that the Miscellaneous desk is now protected until Feb 18 (and since Feb 11)?

If so, I would like to point out that a lot of the people asking genuine questions here as well as a number of helpful volunteers are not registered. Semi-protections of this length really won't help the desks survive. I even believe it's actually feeding the trolls, in any event it's damaging the desks, not protecting them.

What do others think? ---Sluzzelin talk 05:06, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Hadn't thought of it, but you're right. There's probably a fellow somewhere who feels very successful as he thinks he's broken the ref desks and denied its use to many people. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 27 Shevat 5775 05:12, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

And if you don't semi-protect the page, the trolls will win. There is one solution: Give registered users who aren't admins the ability to issue temporary blocks. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 05:26, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

I find it hard to believe that anyone who'd been here for more than a year or two would suggest that! We have enough problems with disagreement over when questions should be hidden or deleted - can you just imagine the chaos if we gave those very same people the power to block people?! Hell no! SteveBaker (talk) 05:32, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)The semis are a bigger win as they catch a lot of innocent bystanders, whereas the trolling posts just catch whomever responds and gets taken along. Surely you don't mean blocking rights for every registered user! Personally, I wouldn't want that ability. Do you mean like mini-moderators who are specially chosen and have fewer privileges than admins? That's a bit better provided the ability isn't abused. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 27 Shevat 5775 05:35, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

It could be like rollback - abuse it and you lose it. And it would be limited to 24 hours or maybe 31, with anything longer still requiring an admin's approval. But that won't happen. So semi-protection still seems like the best option for dealing with a persistent troll. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 05:49, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

I will point out that the theoretical capability for non-admins to block the IPs won't help much, because the IP addresses change. Notice in particular how the IP who either is or is not Alex Sazonov has multiple IP addresses. As a result, it would be whack-a-mole. Given the limited value of that functionality, it wouldn't be worth the cost. It's either semi-protection, or nothing. Neither the argument for semi-protection nor the argument against semi-protection strikes me as strong. On the one hand, the stupid questions asked by the IPs cause only minimal disruption, and may not be worth the effort of stopping them. On the other hand, I don't go along with the idea that semi-protection is denying the Reference Desks to valuable users. I for one don't see much value to posts from unregistered editors. Unregistered editors are of great importance as readers of Misplaced Pages, but I don't see their importance as editors. (That is my opinion.) Robert McClenon (talk) 16:59, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Most any website which allows input requires registration. Why Misplaced Pages continues allowing IP's to edit is anybody's guess. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 03:10, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

It's many people's idea of an online Utopia, as I understand it. The encyclopedia that anyone can edit ... immediately. It's a noble idea that disregards the sizable downside. If I wanted to avoid any accountability, any need to build and maintain a reputation, I'd make sure my only identity consisted of a series of numbers that only Raymond Babbitt could remember from one encounter to the next. Better yet, I'd make it so the numbers kept changing! But I suspect this has been said many times, to deaf ears. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:26, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

It may have been a good idea at the time, when Misplaced Pages was small, but now it's just a royal pain for everyone. I expect the WMF doesn't care, as long as money keeps flowing in. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 03:54, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree with the above posters that allowing unregistered editors is problematic, but getting rid of them is considered to be a "perennial proposal" that is proposed over and over again and does not pass. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:08, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

"Perennial proposal", another Misplaced Pages scourge. As if the community has spoken and its judgment will never change, despite the fact that it is continually being remade as people drop out and join. It also presumes that the few dozen voices in each discussion are representative of the entire community of 130,000 active editors, which is a silly notion on its face. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:28, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Wherever it is that those perennial proposals get considered and, so far, rejected, is where those with an interest in the matter should take their perennial complaints and argue it out. Having a regular whinge about it here is guaranteed to achieve precisely nothing. -- Jack of Oz 04:23, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Oh I don't know. I feel a little better for having said it, and that's not precisely nothing. And it's nice to see my feelings validated, too. Sure, you could say it's a misuse of the space in the strict sense, but less so than a debate about the correct etiquette when one is late for a banquet, which was vigorously defended by multiple experienced editors at VPP. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:33, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

I would like to put forward an alternative solution to the problem; close the reference desk. I think it has past its usefulness and is becoming a dead weight, distracting editors from the mainspace and causing more problems than it solves. The reference desks were created at a time when typing a random question into google produced no results. So people came to Misplaced Pages and posted their questions into articles instead, causing "good faith" disruption. The desks were created to funnel that disruption somewhere it would be less disruptive. But with the rise of Yahoo Answers, Reddit, Stackoverflow, and other sites were people can post questions about anything, the number of people coming to Misplaced Pages for that purpose has greatly dropped off. There is no justification for the continued existence of the reference desks on Misplaced Pages as the problem they were created to solve no longer exists. The existence of the reference desk itself has now become the problem. Perhaps editors interested in continuing the work of the desks can set up their own wiki and police it as they see fit, but for Misplaced Pages I think the desks have reached the end of the line and will be close, if not sooner than definitely later. — Preceding unsigned comment added by InqusitiveOnion (talk • contribs) 17:12, 16 February 2015 (UTC) This template must be substituted.

I strongly disagree with this. The quality of answers you find on those sites is usually pitiful compared to what you get at the refdesks. They're also still pretty active. I don't see activity on the refdesks as being all the disruptive save for the occasional troll (which can and do turn up frequently in mainspace as well). On top of that, a lot of editors also enjoy helping out with the refdesks along with their edits in mainspace, and given the fact Misplaced Pages has also been haemorrhaging active users for years, it's probably best not to alienate people by removing a big part of the project just like that. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 27 Shevat 5775 17:38, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

I'd add that such a major proposal, if serious, belongs in a separate RfC rather than as a tangent in the middle of a discussion about semi-protection. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:42, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

The operative word there being "if serious", given that it's the first and only edit of that account. Also, a serious version of that proposal was discussed here at some length, not too long ago, and nothing came of it. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 02:45, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Smells like this would be a potentially RottenOnion if we were going by WP:DUCK then. Though this is getting us away from the matter at hand. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 28 Shevat 5775 02:52, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

The duck test really only applies if we know what egg the duck hatched out of. I don't know if ducks eat onions. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:06, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Possibly a rotten one, though it doesn't make sense when a full-grown duck would be much more effective here (unless it were a loon), not to mention tastier if it did in fact eat onions. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 28 Shevat 5775 04:15, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

It sounds like you folks are gengineering the duckatrice. Though no substitute for the Doomsday Duck, I could be interested in this. But semi-protection, troll-fighting and all that... not so useful. Just count the goofier questions as roughage, part of a healthy diet, and let them flow through the system. Wnt (talk) 00:19, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Every duck hatched from an egg. My question was an obscure joke about the duck test. The duck test has to do with sock-puppetry. The duck test permits blocking an account if it quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, without the need for checkuser. What egg the duck hatched from was a question of who, if anyone, is the puppet-master. It was an obscure joke that didn't amuse. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:14, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Nonsense, I was amused by it (hence the rotten egg comment), but I wanted to take it one step further and think my joke was lost on everyone, sadly. Also, I feel there is nothing wrong with eating with quacking accounts provided it is within the bounds of civil behaviour (proper flatware must be used). Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 29 Shevat 5775 02:30, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Treatment of IPs

There seems to be a massive issue here whereby anonymous editors, or IP editors, or "unregistered editors" are immediately treated suspiciously and like criminals or blocked former editors or banned users. The knee-jerk reaction should stop. There's no reason at all why an IP shouldn't be taken seriously. I would urge you all to try to remember that as a Reference Desk, it's paramount that you act in a friendly and helpful manner to the users who pass by and ask questions. Of all the places in Misplaced Pages, this is the most likely location that a newbie would appear, mostly without an account, to ask a question. To see the forensic analysis of their purported location and questioning their motives is really demoralising and undermines the purpose of the Ref Desk in its entirety. Let's do better and answer questions (with referenced answers, rather than WP:OR) regardless of whether they have a registered account or, more likely, they are an IP acting in good faith. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:22, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Hear, hear! I agree and support this sentiment. Mingmingla (talk) 01:51, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

The dilemma about IP's, as per discussion farther up the page, is that sometimes it's necessary to semi-protect one or more of the ref desk pages, due to persistent vandalism. This of course shuts out IP's and non-confirmed users. If the vandalism that triggered the semi is from an IP-hopper, it's more efficient to just semi the page than to play whack-a-mole -- albeit at the cost of annoying sincere IP's who would like to edit but can't do so until the semi expires. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 02:11, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

No, it really isn't necessary to semi-protect. It's been done, sure, but that's not necessity. Even if an IP user wants to troll or vandalize, we can just ignore it and move on, or delete/hat as appropriate. I have a feeling that some trolls probably like getting the page semi-protected. After all, semi-protection is very disruptive, and a concrete demonstration that the hypothetical troll has succeeded. SemanticMantis (talk) 18:34, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

It's not done very often. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:04, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

But they're different from us! Strange names, anyway. Isn't that enough reason to remain vigilant? No, I suppose it's not. We can't be too tolerant, but it wouldn't hurt to just censor the bad apples.

I see the question about autism being a drain on society is highlighted in exquisite archived blue, instead of standard hatted pink, to those without Javascript. Nice contrast, illuminates what we don't want. It's sort of like a deterrent, but also sort of like casting a fire spell on a fire monster and healing it. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:27, February 20, 2015 (UTC)

Maybe the hat template needs some additional options. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 09:28, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

The rare times I collapse, I use cot/cob . It takes any bg color you want as a parameter, and it doesn't default to saying "do not modify", though you can also pass a warning parameter. The idea of hatting isn't always to prevent further comment, sometimes it's just to organize the thread. SemanticMantis (talk) 18:37, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Text black would be a great background colour, when the intention is to hide. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:16, February 20, 2015 (UTC)

I am in total agreement. There is nothing wrong with being new. Nor is there anything suspicious about using an IP. Everyone here was new at some point. Everyone here made a first edit, or posted a first question. There are myriad reasons that users might sign with IP. I think some people are just tilting at windmills, or perhaps just paranoid. As I said yesterday, discriminating against users based on IP status is akin to bigotry or racism, and we shouldn't tolerate any of those here. If I had my way, users who regularly violate WP:BITE, WP:AFG, WP:HUMAN, etc. should be warned and then blocked if the behavior does not change. SemanticMantis (talk) 18:39, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

There's nothing inherently or automatically suspicious about using an IP. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:04, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Certainly we can't be biassed against IP editors - that's 180 degrees away from Misplaced Pages policy and culture. What bothers me is someone with no admin qualifications and providing zero evidence pops up and says "xx.xx.xx.xx is the well-known evil doer known as xxxxxx"...and then takes some kind of action on the basis of that. This is a very large stretch past the bounds of what a regular editor here should do. At the very least, we need someone with Admin qualifications to do this kind of thing - and I'm sure they'd need more than a vague suspicion before doing it. Mere similarity to the posts of some known miscreant is not grounds for leaping to action. Fixing these cases what we have Admins for. We simply cannot have unqualified editors deciding to be judge, jury and executioner in these cases.

*AGAIN* I call for adoption of a solid set of carefully-documented, community-agreed, consensus-driven rules that cover what Misplaced Pages Ref Desk editors are expected to do under these kinds of situation - and to treat repeat-offenders against such rules as "Disruptive editors" and have appropriate action taken to remove them from here. SteveBaker (talk) 22:05, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

These kinds of situations are never exactly the same. To attack them all with a rigid gameplan will have different results, some of which piss off innocent people. Legit repeat IP offenders can't really be blocked; there are too many addresses and too many ways to use another. And when the enemy knows exactly how we'll respond (they can read whatever we plan, barring forming a secret cabal), they can tailor their attack accordingly.

I again call for being like water. When the troll expects you to zig with acknowledgment that they're disrupting Misplaced Pages and making you angry, zag with a referenced fact that corrects their premise. Use their angles against them, and turn what could be a bright pink rant about how Jews run the world into black and white proof that they don't. Then when someone stumbles across it, they learn something other than how brittle a target the Ref Desk is. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:33, February 20, 2015 (UTC)

I agree, providing sourced and non-original research answers to questions should be the one and the only pursuit here. Disarm any perceived trolling by using intelligence rather than bludgeoning and continual racing to this talk page to discuss the naughty IP. I don't see this kind of thing impacting the rest of Misplaced Pages, there it's just dealt with in a mature fashion, revert block ignore, or even just ignore. It's not "hat, unhat, hat, unhat, debate endlessly at talk page, resolve nothing" as it is here. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:37, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

And if they don't ask a question, disarm any perceived advertising. At least that's what I eventually realized I was doing to that IP from NBC. Or the NFL. Or Papa John's. Or wherever it came from.

Did you know melted cheese and chunks of meat kill babies? Or that irradiating half-informed prisoner's testicles prevents babies? Or that the Super Bowl causes pupation in a percentage of newborns? InedibleHulk (talk) 09:30, February 22, 2015 (UTC)

On the subject of hatting, it was never supposed to be the go-to solution for banned users or trolls. Hatting was for those occasions when the answers were getting disruptive, should probably be deleted, but deleting them would have caused drama from regular users who didn't want their words 'censored' or 'thrown away'. It mostly hides them from obvious sight, makes it plain that they're unacceptable, and is supposed to stop any further response from users who cannot help replying. My preferred option would be to delete these words, and I regret my support for hatting in the past, but that is why it is used.

If you have a post that you are very sure is from a banned user, you either ignore it and provide the most boring response, or you delete it with minimal comment and attention. These responses are to make the situation as uninteresting for them as possible, and minimise their impact. There has never been consensus for hatting these, because hatting draws attention to their words and preserves them on the desk, which is not the goal. And you certainly don't discuss how you have decided they are a particular banned user on the desks themselves. 31.54.195.124 (talk) 10:03, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

No. It has to be deleted. Banned users are not allowed to edit. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 13:05, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

I think this thread is getting to the nub of the issue. Here are two sort of contradictory truths when it comes to dealing with vandalism:

1. If our preferred "solution" inevitably involves lots of drama here, the trolls have "won".
2. But on the other hand, we shouldn't be obsessed over whether some troll somewhere has scored a "win"; we should be seeking to maximize the quality of, and minimize disruption to, these desks.

If we're always afraid that some bored teenager somewhere might be chuckling "Lulz, I trolled Misplaced Pages again", if we're willing to do anything in a futile attempt to forestall every such chuckle, then whether or not we prevent the trolls from winning, we will unquestionably lose. We will destroy the desks in order to save them.

We should make sure the cure isn't worse than the disease. As the doctors say, "First, do no harm". —Steve Summit (talk) 14:28, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Random trolls are one thing. Banned users are another. They are not allowed to edit, and if they are enabled by someone else, it harms Misplaced Pages. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:37, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

You know what was funny about that question about autistic people. Well the I.P and dropped a ha-ha bomb was not even proven to be the original poster of the question. Other than the hear-say "I did it!!"the admins took that for face value and did it accordingly. What if the same I.P came a long and did that to baseball bugs, or some other saintly member of the gang here.

As for trolls. There's an old saying, if you can't beat em, join em. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 223.216.136.167 (talk) 00:38, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

They already do it to "members of the gang here", frequently. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 12:31, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

To be clear, there's no question that banned editors are not allowed to edit, their edits should be reverted on sight, but we should then avoid this pathetic autopsy on the topic, like every time it happens someone has to start a thread here to discuss reverting a banned editor. That's feeding the troll. Also, to for the avoidance of doubt, there is absolutely no problem with IPs editing, posting questions, posting "dumb" questions, posting questions "in poor English" etc etc. This is a Reference Desk for one of the biggest websites in the known universe. Immediately assuming that IPs are up to no good and geolocating them is really poor form. Instead, work on answering the question with sourced answers and links to our own articnles rather than Sherlock Holmes-style queries and pseudo-pyschoanalysis of their motives. There really is no "them and us". If you believe there is, Misplaced Pages isn't the place for you, especially not the Reference Desk which is supposed to welcome all-comers. Which, right now, it really does not with its appalling treatment of IPs. We don't have two queues, one for registered users, one for IPs, although it seems that some here believe we do, or at least that we should..... The Rambling Man (talk) 23:10, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Given I tidied up this mess, I'm really not amused by the "No, you're wrong, banned users aren't allowed to edit" on a loop. No editors are allowed to feed the trolls, and I'm very sure that as a community we have repeatedly explained exactly which behaviour feeds trolls, and yet not only did several editors discuss at length whether the question was a troll, on the desk itself, someone even brought up a specific named user whose reputation would have died long ago if it wasn't for certain editors repeatedly bringing their name up.

Banned users aren't banned because we're an exclusive club who must publically shun ex-members to solidify our sense of belonging: banned users are banned to reduce disruption. If they came back and nobody noticed because they don't do anything disruptive (including telling people who they are), then nobody would care. It doesn't matter at all whether you think a troll is a specific troll you've met before: who cares, unless they're threatening your safety? Trolling is trolling: we have guidelines to deal with it. 109.157.242.32 (talk) 17:30, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

One of the "guidelines" discussed here has been to keep removal of banned users' edits as low-key as possible. That gets ruined by editors who insist that since they personally don't recognize the banned user's M.O., then nobody else does either. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 04:59, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

It doesn't matter at all whether you think a troll is a specific troll you've met before: who cares, unless they're threatening your safety? Trolling is trolling: we have guidelines to deal with it. 109.157.242.32 (talk) 17:44, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it does matter, because banned users are not allowed to edit. And what do you mean about "safety"? A threat to Misplaced Pages? Yes. Allowing banned users to edit threatens the integrity of Misplaced Pages. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 18:36, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

ANI regarding Medeis

See . Thanks, IBE (talk) 09:23, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Not the first, won't be the last. The problem with ANI for this issue is that it only ever looks at the latest incident, not the years of disruption. SteveBaker's suggestion that we put together a set of rules that will stop it seems like the only workable approach - IF we can enforce a topic ban WHEN the rules are broken. It's this last point which seems to be the major obstacle from my point of view. Tevildo (talk) 23:07, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Medeis herself has proposed a more drastic and effective remedy - "only an admin can hat or delete a discussion". This definitely gets my !vote. Shall we turn it into a formal proposal? If so, is RFC the way to go? Let's get this show on the road, folks! Tevildo (talk) 23:18, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

I think it's quite a reasonable idea, but be careful to specify that it is a separate issue. The debate at ANI there has been weirdly sidetracked into a lot of other issues. You'll have to fight to keep people on topic. So yes, please go ahead, not least because people can then find the appropriate place for that discussion, instead of including it in the ANI that I started. IBE (talk) 05:23, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

The ANI debate has been "weirdly sidetracked" because there are few clear, widely supported rules in this area. As is often the case, the community has tolerated shootdown artists who are skilled at killing any chance of consensus by attacking the imperfections of any proposed solution, while never bringing forth any viable, constructive solutions of their own. I support this RfC as such a constructive proposal, although I will oppose and I think it will fail on its merits. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:49, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Wow, that was really angry, and yet you have a very good point there, amidst the welter of strong feelings. Yes, you are right about people pointing out these imperfections, yet is there any chance you could express this more reasonably in the future? "Shootdown artists", "skilled at killing any chance" - this is what I call argument by characterisation. You characterise people in a certain way, which stands for any reasonable analysis. The only thing we can do, please, is to fight for the middle ground, as well as our own proposals/ opinions or whatever. I agree that you have highlighted a real problem, but you will lose me quickly if you express yourself in such a way as to suggest it is wilful behaviour. We have to preserve the middle ground so that people (like the ones you are referring to) have a chance to find it. If they find it and demonstrably reject it, we can expose their tendentious behaviour. IBE (talk) 14:55, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I learned very early in my time here not to post when I'm angry. Being justifiably resentful is a different thing, and it's something that doesn't go away when you sleep on it. By blocking any progress on anything of significance, the pattern of behavior I described is destructive to the project (willful or not, it doesn't matter), and, yes, I have very strong feelings about that. I doubt I'm alone in that. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:30, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Are we entirely sure Medeis is even one person? What if (s)he's just a computer in a public cafe somewhere that never logs off? It would explain why it sometimes hats things and sometimes doesn't. Sometimes pleasant, sometimes un. I'm not trying to weirdly sidetrack anyone. Just something to think about. InedibleHulk (talk) 07:37, February 23, 2015 (UTC)

I think that's rather unlikely - Medeis' prose style is very consistent between postings. Tevildo (talk) 01:23, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Hatting, deleting, and nicknames

"This glorification of vandalism through infamy encourages Internet memes through reinforcement, where users imitate notorious or unique vandalism methods for amusement, to share in the infamy, or for the thrill of defying authority and/or interfering in other users' work. Denying recognition and infamy neutralizes common primary motivators for vandalism and disruption." WP:DENY

Okay, I really thought there was clear community consensus on this, but I could be wrong. Could we have some comment, and maybe a !vote on this? I would prefer not to bring in specific cases, as I don't want it to become about discussing individuals or glorifying trolls. I have laid out what I consider the main points where we may diverge, to try to work out what the consensus is.

Thank you for your constructive comments. 109.157.242.32 (talk) 18:55, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Many of these questions seem to assume that there is an agreement about what constitutes trolling. The main problem, in my view, is the disagreement and discussions about whether particular questions and edits are trolling or not. --NorwegianBlue 19:16, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

The purpose of any action taken with respect to vandals and trolls is aimed at reducing disruption to the project.

Agree

• I thought this was clearly agreed. 109.157.242.32 (talk) 18:55, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
• Obviously. --NorwegianBlue 19:17, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
• Agreed and I like that the OP is looking to set forward clear-cut definitions. When people write formal contracts one of the first things done is to create s definitions section so as to remove any possible ambiguity. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 5 Adar 5775 20:34, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
• Agree - although we do have to consider the wider Misplaced Pages. So if we did something that disrupted the rest of Misplaced Pages in order to create more calm here - that would be A Bad Thing(tm). SteveBaker (talk) 21:31, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
• Clearly. So obvious one would think it doesn't need saying -- except that so many of the actions we do seem to end up taking here are outrageously disruptive, so this is a point that does need highlighting and working on, after all. —Steve Summit (talk) 05:07, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
• Yes, clearly. Although I'd prefer to say "The purpose ... is to reduce disruption to the project". Actions may be aimed at something, but purposes are just something. -- Jack of Oz 05:08, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Disagree

Comment

Trolls are motivated by a desire for recognition and a visible impact.

Agree

• Experience, and general discussions online including on Misplaced Pages, made me think this was universally agreed109.157.242.32 (talk) 18:55, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
• To the extent that troll psychology is interesting, it is probably true that they want their disruption to be noticed, since ignoring trolls has proved to be the way to go. --NorwegianBlue 19:23, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Disagree

• You're missing the critical part, that they want to cause disruption. Wanting recognition and to make a visible impact are not bad things. StuRat (talk) 19:18, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
• StuRat is correct...at least for some subset of trolls.
• We can't know what really motivates any given troll, nor make generalizations about all trolls. —Steve Summit (talk) 05:07, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
  • I would agree with you that based on human nature (we're all different) it doesn't make sense to stereotype save for one thing. Most trolls are carbon copies of others using tried and true methods guaranteed to offend (at least if done right). Most new memes and trolls (as in methods of trolling) are done to death soon after they come out and still copied for a long time afterwards. It's unusual to run into a truly original troll and unlikely they'd troll here as there's much bigger fish. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 6 Adar 5775 12:11, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Comment

• See Troll (Internet). There is no need to reinvent the wheel here. -- Jack of Oz 05:12, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Use of cute nicknames, insulting terms, and general recognition that a specific troll is remembered and talked about as an individual, encourages trolls

Agree

• WP:Do not insult the vandals, and all that. 109.157.242.32 (talk) 18:55, 24 February 2015 (UTC) To be clearer, I would consider calling a troll by a cute nickname on the desks a clear violation of WP:DENY. 109.157.242.32 (talk) 19:03, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
• Yes, and I think that trying to associate particular edits with particular trolls to the extent that is done on this talk page, is counterproductive. --NorwegianBlue 19:32, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
• Yes, but unfortunately Baseball Bugs is one of our "best" "troll hunters," and he seems to really like giving them names. SemanticMantis (talk) 21:26, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Well, instead of "Toron-troll", I could say "IP-hopping Toronto-based troll whose sole purpose is to foment debates" each time the subject comes up. Do you like that better? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:44, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
• Doing something to increase notoriety would be bad. Let's give them long, boring serial numbers instead of names. SteveBaker (talk) 21:34, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Actually, what would be best is trusting the judgment of the regular editors who know a troll's M.O. when they see it. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:46, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Careful with that joke, Steve, I don't care and found it funny, but it could very easily be interpreted as a Holocaust joke (for reasons I don't have to explain). Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 6 Adar 5775 01:44, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
    • And who will decide who is "trusted" and who not? We'd need a process...fortunately, we have such a process - it's called Admin-ship. If you're a wannabe troll hunter - head over to WP:RFA and get yourself qualified, with a bright shiney toolkit to handle this stuff properly. What ain't gonna work (and is demonstrably NOT working) is self-nominated troll hunters. SteveBaker (talk) 01:24, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
      • That's one of the silliest comments I've seen here. Us peons have always been assistants to the admins in alerting them to trolls. Which you would know, if you paid attention. And if you don't trust the regulars and do trust the trolls, you took a wrong turn somewhere. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 02:26, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

• Agree. This shows the troll that they've won. It can best be illustrated by this page on KnowYourMeme. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 6 Adar 5775 01:44, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
• Agree. We should deny trolls recognition wherever possible. (Although, inevitably, there are tradeoffs, because we have to be able to talk about what we're doing, because we don't all trust each other enough to act invisibly and unilaterally.) —Steve Summit (talk) 05:07, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Disagree

Comment

• Yes, but we do need to say we think this is a troll, and link to the talk page where we list our evidence. StuRat (talk) 19:16, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
  • True, but we don't have to give them cool nicknames in the process...as I said above, ten digit randomly generated serial numbers would work better! SteveBaker (talk) 21:34, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
    • See my comment above, good sir. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 6 Adar 5775 01:44, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
    • StuRat is one of the major troll-enablers here. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:46, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

• This does not aid our discussion IMHO. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 6 Adar 5775 01:44, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Obvious trolling, or known banned users, can be simply deleted with little notice given. The reason is that the trolling is obviously disruptive, or the user is surely known

Agree

• This denies them what they want, but should only be used where there is no doubt. This is not the same as everyone having no doubt, but there may be a few reliable people who are trusted to know. This may involve checkuser. 109.157.242.32 (talk) 18:55, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
• Surely, if the troll is truly well-knwn and recognizable, and if the editor doing the summary removal is trustworthy. —Steve Summit (talk) 05:07, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Disagree

• Unfortunately, we have regulars here like Medeis who seem to be incapable of exercising good judgement, so we can't allow this. Of course, if a post isn't actually a Q, but just a rant, then we can remove it for not being a Q.StuRat (talk) 19:13, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
• We have seen, again and again, that what is obvious trolling to one user, may be a reasonable question to others. --NorwegianBlue 19:38, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
• Agree with Norwegian Blue. I have noticed the same thing over a long time, and it would cause friction among us if implemented. This IMHO would feed the trolls. I thought the idea with known trolls was that they should be banned, and admins had responsibility for banned users. Identifying them from their MO alone sounds terribly suspect to me, and beyond our scope. IBE (talk) 03:33, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
• I would consider agreeing - but for three things:
  1. We first have to unambiguously determine that this is definitely a troll. If just one individual makes that decision (eg Medeis) then they'll very often be wrong - or at least others here may wish to debate the matter...which gives the troll the kick they need. So the criterion for deletion would have to be sufficiently mechanically determined to allow the action to be performed with minimal debate. That's tough to do....but having some guidelines here would help.
  2. In the event that there is cause for doubt, then deletion is problematic because it leaves room for deletion without oversight. If we can't see the original post - and if we're trying not to debate it, then a rogue editor can (and past history says, will) start deleting questions that they merely don't like. This is not acceptable.
  3. It is arguable, that the troll would see deletion as an active response from us - which may in itself encourage the troll to post over and over in a cascade of whack-a-mole deletions that would possibly constitute recognition.

  I would prefer to simply stop replying to them. Do **NOTHING** whatever. This denies recognition at least as effectively as deletion...and it allows each of us individually to make our own determination of whether the question was "real" or "trollish". That said, if an administrative decision elsewhere in Misplaced Pages has formally identified this username or IP address as an evil-doer - then I see no particular problem with delete-on-sight...in that case, there ought to be no doubt.

  • Who are you? Please sign and date your posts. -- Jack of Oz 05:16, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Comment

A troll will generally be disappointed with a brief, boring, referenced answer, and this the best response to any borderline cases

Agree

• I would consider this the ideal. 109.157.242.32 (talk) 18:55, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
• Agreed. StuRat (talk) 19:11, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
• Agreed. --NorwegianBlue 19:39, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
• Strong agree. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 5 Adar 5775 19:54, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
• YES SemanticMantis (talk) 21:22, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
• I agree with the sentiment, which I have usually called "playing a straight bat". Just answer the question literally, as asked, without getting into side issues such as our outrage. But such responses do not have to be brief to be effective; it depends on the context. Also, I have never been guilty of writing anything boring in my life, and don't intend to start now. -- Jack of Oz 05:24, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Disagree

• Strong Disagree. I don't think we can create boring enough answers efficiently enough. The troll may take joy in causing us to waste countless hours researching dumb, stupid questions in order to come up with those answers. "Don't Feed The Trolls" is the correct thing to do. Simply do not answer at all. I appreciate that this may be difficult - but it's the only thing thats been proven to work. Just pretend that the question doesn't exist. No mention of it, no discussion of it, no reply to it. If someone does respond to an obvious troll, then maybe issue a short, standardized template warning to the responders' talk page. "I think you replied to a troll - you may wish to retract your response."...that's far enough away from the WP:RD page that the troll may not have the energy to go and look to see if (s)he caused disruption there...and if they do, a simple template with no additional commentary is the least interesting thing we can do. SteveBaker (talk) 21:53, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

• Note that the statement addressed borderline cases, i.e. cases where there you are in doubt whether the question was serious or not. If I considered the question interesting enough for me to spend time researching it, and had time available to do so, I wouldn't really care what the motivation of the questioner was, and I don't think I would create any disruption by providing a referenced answer. The answer would be boring to the OP if the question was an attempt at trolling, and hopefully interesting to the OP and others if the question was made in good faith. If the question was uninteresting and suspect, I would ignore it. --NorwegianBlue 23:04, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

If we make our referenced responses boring, the trolls win. Let's just not make them inflammatory. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:50, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

I think the the idea behind boring wasn't so much dry, but rather not expressing any strong negative emotions over the topic. The Israel Palestine topic from two days ago for instance as targeted to provoke strong reaction if it was a troll post. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 6 Adar 5775 04:43, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

It did sort of provoke me. But I refrained from mentioning specific unspeakable acts. And deflected the urge into improving the rocket article's accuracy and range a bit. Trolls can be used to support the bridges they live beneath. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:50, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

You saw though how there started to be back-and-forths over it though. The regulars started arguing over the nature of the Conflict because they feel strongly about it for one reason or another. Were it a troll post, the OP would have harvested the lulz from everyone getting so hot and bothered, and the ref desk regulars might not even realised they've been trolled. They'd just think about how horrible that other person on refdesk is for thinking they can honestly justify the actions of whichever side they support (as most foreigners are polarised on this particular issue).

Another example was the autism thread where even I lost my cool (I'd like to think I've a thick netskin, but clearly not always the case) because I find the level of ignorance that was displayed in the original question offensive (unapologetic ignorance is something that annoys me). Should have seen that as a red flag. We all had some nice arguments there and if the OP was trolling, they got ample lulz out of it. When people lose their composure, the troll wins. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 6 Adar 5775 14:41, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

• Weak disagree, because I don't think we can say anything general about the troll's psychology or satisfaction level, so I can't agree that this is the "best" response in every situation. (Though it can indeed be a perfectly fine response in some situations.) —Steve Summit (talk) 05:07, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

• Per what I said above, I would normally agree with you as people are different from person to person, but in the case of most trolls except for the really good ones, I must respectfully disagree. Your average troll is a copycat of other trolls mimicking older, more experienced, trolls and using tired old trolling methods. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 6 Adar 5775 14:41, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Comment

• A dispassionate reply to a troll post is very effective. It will either anger the troll and cause them to leave after a while or defuse them as they feel outgunned. Either way their confidence is bruised and they're gone (at least for a while). I used to do this with trolls on IRC who liked to use heavy-duty holocaust jokes on me and I always either talked about stuff calmly (or in certain cases one upped them) and this always defused them. I even managed to become friendly with an Austrian neo-Nazi who liked me because of archaeology. The other solution I found back then was to counter-troll a troll until they would beg for mercy, and then after it was granted, they'd be docile, but that only works on minor to moderate trolls and is thoroughly unacceptable behaviour on Misplaced Pages (and you feel bad about it after a while). So I feel the above approach is best. (It's known that the /lit/section of 4chan is impossible to troll because this is how they deal with trolls. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 5 Adar 5775 19:54, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Yep, we of course shouldn't troll the trolls here, but keeping our cool and ignoring or giving calm referenced answers is the best. SemanticMantis (talk) 21:22, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I disagree. Many trolls would take great joy in asking which porn star has the biggest dick and watching us go off and carefully research the matter, providing copious carefully referenced answers. Having us run in circles trying to answer this kind of question is PRECISELY the kind of thing that trolls love to see. This is a really, REALLY terrible idea! SteveBaker (talk) 21:53, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Of course, SemanticMantis. Sorry, I should have specified that the dispassionate answers is what I was advocating. I was just putting it in context of other effective methods. It's also been quite some time since I wrecked a troll and it takes a lot of apathy and practice which none of us should engage in as our time is better spent helping people out (it also only works on lesser trolls). Ignoring is nice in theory, but practice has shown that someone will always answer (either out of anger at them question or pity because the post is being ignored). Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 6 Adar 5775 00:59, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

A terrible idea, says you. I think you just don't have the experience in teaching that some of us do. So let me tell you: calmly answering questions with facts is what works, not telling people they aren't allowed to ask. If someone asks us about pornstar penises and some of us want to provide references, I don't think that's feeding trolls. There's nothing wrong with asking about penises, WP:NOTCENSORED, so that's a non starter. So we're left with the your idea of "great joy" - you seem to be saying this would be troll feeding because the asker might like the fact that we did research for them? That's INSANE. That's tantamount to saying that we can only answer questions if we are pretty sure the OP won't like it or perhaps at best they have no feeling. But certainly not pleasure. That would be terrible. Do you see how crazy that sounds? Aren't we here to help people, and presumably give them the pleasure of answering their questions? That's what I'm here for anyway, though a lot of respondents just like to talk a lot and not give references... Us fighting about whether or not we can answer the question is feeding trolls, IMO.

In short, you're missing the point, and the beauty of this concept: your plan only works if we ALL agree on what is trolling. This way, giving referenced answers, means it doesn't matter if one user thinks it is a troll question and another doesn't. You are of course free to ignore something that you think is trolling, and I should be free to give AGF, referenced answers anywhere I want, even if it is about porn stars' penises. That really is a REALLY TERRIBLE example! SemanticMantis (talk) 22:41, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't mean any offence by this, but I think you might be presenting an overly-simplistic view of what trolling is and what trolls are after, SteveBaker. I'm not saying I'm at all an expert, but I'll give my opinions on the matter. For one thing, trolls, just like regular people, really vary in complexity. You have garden variety obvious trolls (who run the gambit from pitiful to rage-inducing) who you can tell are trying to cause controversy or annoy people, but you also have opportunistic and concern trolls whose skills are much more developed. They're also very difficult to tell from a genuinely concerned individual (and the ensuing debate over whether or not they're a troll can be a pre-calculated form of trolling in and of itself).

Hypothetically, and I'm not saying this is at all the case, and so I hope the OP won't take offence, but hypothetically this entire topic could be one massive brilliant troll (the kind that honesty earns a beer IRL even if it's not cool overall) to cause disagreement and fighting amongst the users on this talk page. It would fuel itself and all the originator would have to do is gently guide it back towards fighting should it calm down, but we, ourselves, would fuel it for the most part. Trolls thrive on negativity above all else.

Again, not saying this is at all the case, but this is just one example and there is such trolling. If you have time, I recommend doing some background research on Encyclopædia Dramatica (sort of like /b/'s version of Misplaced Pages—do not view the Offended page under any circumstances). Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 6 Adar 5775 00:59, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Mantis. Defining trolling is incredibly tricky and oftentimes people will call valid arguments trolling just because they don't like it. (A terrible problem in the annoying realm of politics) It's a huge mess made even worse by placing constricting rules and standards on everything. The more rules you have, the more people will want to break them.

The most cool-headed place I've ever seen on the net is RoyalHookahForum. They have no real rules there save for not being a complete ass. There'll be light hearted insults, along with sage advice and everyone gets on really well. Now obviously we can't have an almost rules free environment here as this is first and foremost an encyclopedia, but making things very restrictive is not the way to go.

Also, there have been more than a few questions I've wanted to ask, but haven't because I feel like there might be backlash to what I, at least, consider perfectly reasonable questions, even if a bit tricky. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 6 Adar 5775 00:59, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Discussing trolling on the desks themselves, rather than here, is unprofessional and encourages trolling

Agree

• I thought this was clearly agreed, but maybe the desks are no longer considered 'customer facing'? 109.157.242.32 (talk) 18:55, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
• Agreed. --NorwegianBlue 19:41, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
• Agreed. Though if someone else says "this is a troll" on the desk, I will still reply there if I reply at all. SemanticMantis (talk) 21:28, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
• Strongly agree. SteveBaker (talk) 21:55, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
• Clearly. Very bad form. Whether or not it encourages the troll, it maximizes the disruption. —Steve Summit (talk) 05:07, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
• Agree. -- Jack of Oz 05:26, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Disagree

Comment

• Yes, but we do need to give a statement that we believe it to be trolling, and a link to the talk page discussion. StuRat (talk) 19:10, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
  • If we do (and I'm not sure we do), it has to be UTTERLY minimal, boring formulaic, repetitive and not give any impression that we went to a lot of trouble to produce it. No response whatever is the best answer. SteveBaker (talk) 21:55, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Discussing it here is just as encouraging. Westboro Baptist Church didn't so much care about the immediate drama from angry funeral goers as it wanted the months of consequent long-winded opinion articles elsewhere on the planet. Can't look at this huge talk page and believe we haven't been trolled. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:56, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

Unprofessional comments that encourage trolling may be deleted from the desks

Agree

• This is where I expect less consensus. 109.157.242.32 (talk) 18:55, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Disagree

• We can't give editors with poor judgement the power to make such calls alone, or they are likely to decide that any answer which disagrees with them is "unprofessional" and delete it. StuRat (talk) 19:08, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
• When we can't agree on whether a particular edit is trolling or not, we cannot possibly hope for agreement about whether a comment might encourage trolling. --NorwegianBlue 19:45, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
• I would like to agree - but then we're back to random editors choosing to be judge, jury and executioner. Only an admin should have the power to do this. If we had a set of clear guidelines that stated what kinds of thing were "unprofessional" in this context - then I might agree. But we'd need some kind of bright line criterion. SteveBaker (talk) 21:57, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

• I don't see Admins as being above making bad decisions (and removing their Admin status if they do make bad decisions seems almost impossible). This is why we need consensus to delete. StuRat (talk) 22:05, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

• The rule that we don't edit each others' comments is pretty ironclad. (And breaking it inevitably leads to muchas drama, and drama = disruption.) —Steve Summit (talk) 05:07, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Comment

Hatting can be useful for collapsing long information, or preventing further comments in an unproductive conversation

Agree

• I expect most agree with this now. 109.157.242.32 (talk) 18:55, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
• Yes, but be careful not to hat actual answers. StuRat (talk) 19:07, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
• Agree with original statement. Also agree with StuRat that there may be cases when actual answers could be preserved. However, in the usual tangled mess of some information, some meta-discussion about whether the question is appropriate or not and some jokes, I wouldn't mind if the whole thing is hatted. --NorwegianBlue 20:06, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
• Agreed, with a note for terminology - a hat produces a message to "please do not modify" - so it shouldn't be used for organizational purposes. It also clearly states that it should only be applied by uninvolved editors. In contrast, the cot/cob template also collapses, but does not say the thread is closed by default (though there is an option to do so). So cot/cob should be used to box up things like off-topic discussion or long examples. SemanticMantis (talk) 21:32, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
• Yup. —Steve Summit (talk) 05:07, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Disagree

• I disagree. Trolls know how to hit the "SHOW" button - and I'm fairly sure a lot of people are curious about WHY something was hatted - so it might even result in more people reading it than if it had just been left alone. it's just annoying...and it in no way solves the underlying problem of preventing people from arguing about whether the hat was appropriate or not. SteveBaker (talk) 22:00, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Comment

Hatting is not an appropriate response to trolling, as it preserves the trolling and draws attention to it

Agree

• This is where I now expect more discussion. 109.157.242.32 (talk) 18:55, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
• I agree, for reasons explained earlier. SteveBaker (talk) 22:10, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
• Agree. —Steve Summit (talk) 05:07, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
• Strongly agree. -- Jack of Oz 05:28, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Disagree

• The alternative, deletion, gives too much power to people who lack the judgement to make such calls without consensus. StuRat (talk) 19:06, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

  That's not true, we can always get deleted stuff back from the edit history...it's not much harder than removing a hat. SteveBaker (talk) 22:10, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Comment

• As others have said here previously, the real problem isn't the questions, it's the answers. If everyone could just refrain from responding to or policing questions they perceive as trolling, and refrain from starting meta-discussions when others have assumed good faith and given reasonable, referenced answers, the desks would be a better place. --NorwegianBlue 20:22, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

  I agree. It's long been known, since before the RD, before Misplaced Pages, indeed before the Internet itself...dating all the way back to Usenet and news groups...that the only way to deal with a troll is to deny recognition. Any recognition. All recognition. Simply pretend they don't exist. It's hard to understand the motivation of trolls - so putting yourself into their position and trying to decide whether a hat or a delete or a serious telling off or a long, carefully researched and referenced answer will solve the problem doesn't work. They don't think like you or I. So do what people have been doing for the last 25 years...DON'T FEED THE TROLL - it's a technique that's long been known to work. The only problem is in getting everyone to do it - and THAT is what we need to do here. Educate each other. Quietly inform each other of who we think the trolls are - who not to answer...don't make a big show of it. Use back-channels, individual talk pages, email. Also, trolls need to be reported through the usual Misplaced Pages channels - ANI, etc. If there are admins here, then please use your powers and your best judgement where you can. SteveBaker (talk) 22:10, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

BRD in practice

I undid Bug's hatting of this thread . I don't care who asked the question, it is IMO a valid ref desk question "Is this a fair depiction of universities in the USA?" is the core question. Many of us have provided referenced responses, and not argued or debated anything. As I understand WP:BRD, Bugs was Bold, I Reverted, and now we Discuss before any further action is taken. SemanticMantis (talk) 21:21, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

(For the sake of clarity, the exact quote from the thread is "Is this article accurate in its portrayal of the state of American academia?") SemanticMantis (talk)

You are enabling the Toron-troll. Way to go. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:28, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

BRD, my old friend! Ah, what a relief it is! Oppose the hat per OP and (singular) their troll philosophy, which I interpret as judge the question not the questioner. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:35, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

You are clearly unaware of the Toron-troll's M.O. However, this is a good example of why I so seldom hat or delete stuff. You enablers will come along and trash any such efforts. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:37, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Judge the question, not the questioner or their M.O. SM has elaborated the reasoning multiple times elsewhere. Trolls want to be recognized and treated as trolls, so we'll deprive them of that satisfaction by treating them as good-faith questioners, provided the question is somewhat reasonable. We'll deflate their power and avoid unnecessary conflict at the same time. And we'll provide good responses for future searchers of the archives as well. Do I have that somewhat right, SM? ―Mandruss ☎ 21:48, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Banned users are not allowed to edit. And even if the Toron-troll is not a banned user, they are still violating the rules by constantly trying to provoke debates. But this is why I'm now proposing NO hats or deletes for the next week. According to the theories here, that should deprive them of a great deal of attention. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:51, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

This is the main issue, as I see it. Is the user in question actually banned? Is there an AN/I thread we can refer to where the ban was issued? If there is, your actions were correct. If there isn't, they weren't. Tevildo (talk) 22:00, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

They've been blocked often enough that they are defacto banned. It's frequently suggested there's no point having a ban discussion on someone who is already defacto banned. In this particular case, I think a request to ban the editor at ANI is likely to go down even more poorly, I suspect many there would ask why we even need to discuss whether an editor who goes asking contributors how it feels to be "negress" since their "race genetically has average 85 IQ" who has been blocked several times is defacto banned. Nil Einne (talk) 05:05, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Agree with unhatting, and especially with getting rid of the attention-grabbing advertisment of a troll name/nickname that the banner created. I see this question as a rather obvious invitation to a forum-like diskussion. The main problem was that so many of us responded. The first response was reasonable, but then everybody wanted to take part in the discussion. An ideal early response would have been one that pointed out that this is not a forum, and discuraged further discussion. --NorwegianBlue 21:46, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Hence hatting rather than deleting. If you don't like "Toron-troll", I could post a long sentence explaining in more detail, to try to give the enablers a clue. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:49, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Well, not all that long: Discussion outside the scope of the reference desk closed. See "What the reference desk is not". would suffice. --NorwegianBlue 22:30, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Personally I disagree with the unhatting, particularly since when the unhatting happened, the IP had already asked that ridiculous Swedish question but I'm not going to bother to debate it. Particularly since I partially agree with NorwegianBlue here, namely that this question, and in fact most questions by this troll aren't really that suitable for the RD anyway. I'm not saying this alone justifies their removal or hatting, rather the fact they aren't RD questions means there's less imperative to hat them since if people answer them they should already know to some extent what they're getting in to. The other point, is that I'm not completely sure the editor is a troll, even if I've often used that term in reference to this specific editor myself. I suspect they are, the way they were praising μηδείς until they purportedly suddenly found out about μηδείς's heritage suggests to me a troll. However from the little I've seen (well that I recall I've seen), it's a bit difficult to rule out them simply being a racist who's attempts at debate and to prove the inferiority of whatever "race" are genuine. Of course them being a troll doesn't rule them out being genuinely racist either, but the point is if they are genuine in the questions, even if their questions are inappropriate and often flawed, editors aren't being fooled by the editor. (This compares to for example, the editor I mentioned below from Argentina who pretended to be from a lot of different countries, who from their questions was at least partially not being genuine.) Of course as I said above, either way the editor is still unwelcome on the RD, or anywhere on wikipedia. Being racist isn't in itself something sanctionable. Going around calling others offensive names and asking offensive stuff of them is. Nil Einne (talk) 06:14, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Suggestion

How about declaring a moratorium on hatting and deleting? No hats or deletes at all for the next week, regardless of where the questions came from and what the content is. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:41, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

• I fully support that as an interesting experiment. Maybe WP will fall and crumble to a wasteland of trolls and vandals, or maybe things will be just fine. Of course we still can't give medical advice etc. Maybe it would be better to try out a moratorium on hatting or deleting questions. Either way though, I'm all for it. SemanticMantis (talk) 21:49, 24 February 2015 (UTC) (But I really hope I can AGF that none of our regulars will get WP:POINTY and start trolling themselves in an attempt to prove that we need deletions.)
  • No. No exceptions. There are users here who don't recognize a request for medical advice when they see it, and others who don't believe in that rule. No hatting or deleting. Just factual responses, or ignoring, as so many reasonably argue here. With all the commentary above, it seems possible to starve the trolls by giving them too little attention. My real goal is to have the ref desk talk page go silent for a week, which would be a nice change. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:55, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
    • As I said, I'm fine either way, but I think phrasing it that broadly makes it less likely to gain consensus, especially from users who are afraid that we would be exposing WP to liability, along the lines of Tevildo's comment below. SemanticMantis (talk) 22:02, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
      • It has been stated countless times that WP can't be held liable for something that some individual editor has posted. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 22:13, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
        • I know, and I believe that. But not everybody does... Let's just wait and see if anyone else goes for it. SemanticMantis (talk) 22:16, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

With the caveat that anything coming under WP:LOP#Legal is still to be deleted, I would support this. But I doubt that this will be the majority viewpoint, or, indeed, that Bugs seriously means it. Tevildo (talk) 21:58, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm happy to WP:AGF with Bugs. SemanticMantis (talk) 22:02, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

The problem with trying to allow exceptions is that we'll be right back at the talk page arguing over whether a question and/or a response violates the rules against asking for and/or giving professional advice. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 22:06, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Well, it's not a case of "allowing exceptions", it's a case of our not being able to prevent deletion of material which is actually illegal or which violates WP:TOS (_not_ merely the guidelines). I've never seen an example of this sort of thing on the reference desks, but saying "nothing is to be deleted" is not legally possible for us to implement. Tevildo (talk) 00:04, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

• fully supportPhoenixia1177 (talk) 08:25, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

• Abstain InedibleHulk (talk) 12:11, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

Amazing Grace...

Do you guys realise how much energy and how many bytes have been expended on all this nonsense? If the Ref Desk spent as much time researching and answering questions as it did geolocating anon IPs and hatting so-called trolls, it could be a truly useful and usable resource. Stop all this right now, just answer questions that should be answered and ignore those which shouldn't. It's really simple. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:53, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I dunno, I tend to react negatively to commands like "stop all this right now". I was discharged from the military in 1977 and haven't looked back. Misplaced Pages is not a military organization and you are not a commander here. Thanks. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:58, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

The command is usually issued for your own good. The advice is in good faith, expend energy here improving the place, not whining about the place, creating endless conspiracy theories about IPs using the "geolocate" function etc etc etc, just get on with being a Ref Desk, not a pretend detective agency. As a former military person you should understand that wasting time is wasting time and that's not good. This is an encyclopedia. If our edits don't make the place more encyclopaedic then we should question why we made the edits... PPPPPPP. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:03, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I find it ironic that you invoke PPPPPPP here. What we need is precisely that - planning and preparation. Compiling a set of community-sanctioned guidelines that direct our future activities is planning and preparation - and it should indeed work toward preventing piss poor performance down the line. What you're advocating here is to curtail any planning and preparation and rush headlong over the trenches with fixed bayonets instead of thinking hard and designing some sort of tank. SteveBaker (talk) 22:24, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Nope, once again another who failed to read the opening post. We already have prior planning, it's BRD and RBI and right now all we see is a piss poor performance from many RD contributors who continually run to the talk page to whinge about so-called trolls etc. Stop doing that. It makes things worse. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:53, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

At least four editors here present don't feel we are wasting our time, and the thread is still young. It is not for you to declare that we are wasting time and order us to cease immediately. If you feel it's a waste of your time, then don't waste it. The door is that way. Sheesh! ―Mandruss ☎ 22:08, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I think you have missed the point. And as a military man, I think you've epically failed to read your instructions. Go back to my original request. This is a plea to stop all the ongoing and continual running to the talk page to discuss each and every hatting/closure/deletion of every dubious/medical/trolling thread. You should know, by know, that it's a waste of community resources. Stop doing it, and do something useful, like improve the encyclopedia. Sheesh!!! (whatever that means) The Rambling Man (talk) 22:16, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Mocking users' comments, very impressive. For your edification: . ―Mandruss ☎ 22:57, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

You're still not reading it, are you? Never mind. Focus on the sheesh, not the crux of the matter. Run toward the bright light because that what you've been told, etc. Time to wake up and realise that this is an encyclopaedia and we should be improving it. Are you doing that? Is this thread doing that? Are the various whinging threads continually created here every time a troll visits doing that? I read three fat NOs. The Rambling Man (talk) 23:12, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I already stated that I have read it multiple times, so clearly I'm not the individual with WP:IDHT issues here. Apparently you feel that failure to see the obvious wisdom of your comments is evidence of willful failure to understand you. That is not the case. If you're here to collaborate, which is at the core of Misplaced Pages principles, welcome to the discussion. If you're here as the only smart person in the room, I have better things to do with my time, and I'm more than willing to ignore any further comments from you. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:26, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

As you like it. Failure to read properly seems a core issue with many people around these parts. The Rambling Man (talk) 05:44, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Full support to the Rambling man's suggestion. @Mandruss: please re-read The Rambling man's post, which to me reads like an earnest request for better practices, not like a military order. --NorwegianBlue

I read it multiple times and I disagree with it. How I choose to spend my unpaid time at Misplaced Pages is my business, up to the point where someone can show that I am WP:NOTHERE (not even close). We all welcome TRM to make suggestions, which may or may not be followed, the same as the rest of us. Aggressive attempts to control what happens here are NOT welcome, at least by me, I don't claim to speak for anyone else. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:20, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree that we should not be helping out the troll by arguing about them. I agree that time spend editing this page is time that's not being spend in helping people with their questions. BUT: I firmly believe that we DO need to set some policies in place for what we do with trolls, vandals, stupid kids, medical questions, annoying joke makers, judge-jury-and-executioner deletion/hatters and so forth. If we could just concentrate on getting consensus-driven policies in place effectively, then we'd spend less time doing this (ideally, no time at all doing it) - and we'd all have time for answering more questions. So while I agree with your sentiments, and I do try to stay out of these discussions, I believe that an investment in time for policy making will pay back in time down the road, and that's for the betterment of the RD's. SteveBaker (talk) 22:19, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I'd be interested in which editors here actually spend more time researching IPs etc than answering questions. Definitely while I've spend a fair amount of time on this and in discussion here, it's nothing compared to the amount of time I spend answering questions. Whether that time spend is productive or not may be up for debate, but it's hardly uncommon I can spend 2 or 3 hours researching and answering a question. In fact, the last time I spent anything like that on something related to the RD talk or on researching something unrelated to a question on the RD was in reference to μηδείς no IPs). μηδείς seems to be the biggest hatter, but they don't seem to spend much time discussing their hats, or on researching IPs (from what I've seen anyway). Perhaps BB is the only one this could apply to, but even BB doesn't seem to spend that much time on it. Nil Einne (talk) 06:22, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps you are approaching this the wrong way

I would like to call to everyone's attention to Misplaced Pages:Help desk, where we manage to get by just fine without any self-appointed sheriffs deleting or collapsing questions that they don't like. these include:

• Legal threats/BLP issues: Misplaced Pages:Help desk/Archives/2015 February 5#request for correction of errors and defamation
• Misplaced vandalism reports: Misplaced Pages:Help desk/Archives/2015 January 12#"Sickle"
• Misplaced content disputes: Misplaced Pages:Help desk/Archives/2014 December 20#"HANDS UP" FALSE NARRATIVE
• Requests for medical advice: Misplaced Pages:Help desk/Archives/2014 December 1#Audio illutions
• Questions written in other languages: Misplaced Pages:Help desk/Archives/2014 November 24#لماذا تم حذف صفحتي؟

What few content deletions we have are 100% uncontroversial and generate zero drama. In all other cases, the question gets answered, even if the answer is "You are in the wrong place; the right place is X" or "That's not a question Misplaced Pages can answer".

Perhaps western civilization won't collapse if we all just stop deleting or collapsing questions/discussions that we don't like... I'm just saying. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:14, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

It won't be a surprise to many, but I agree completely. I edit all over Misplaced Pages and the Ref Desk is the only place where such events create so much drama on such a regular basis. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:18, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Me too. I've been a long-time regular here, but have been becoming less and less regular (maybe I need more roughage in my diet) over the past couple of years. I take less and less interest in participating in these back-room debates, because they almost never get anywhere, and life is too short. The last time there was a significant collaborative achievement was the Ref Desk Guidelines, which were hammered out in 2006 and have undergone only minimal revision since. The same cadre of editors who are addicted to arguing, to getting their own way, to self-promotion, to having something important to say about every conceivable topic, to providing detailed opinions without even a suspicion of a reference, and the rest of it, are in full control as ever. (I mention no names, but if you wonder whether I'm talking about you specifically, I very possibly am.) Whatever approach the Help desk takes seems to work well. Let us emulate it. -- Jack of Oz 21:50, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

The ref desks began as a spinoff of the help desks. Maybe it's time to re-merge them. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:14, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

If that implies the ref desks adopting the "answer the question or ignore it" culture of the help desk, it could work, but if it meant the help desk adopting the "try to control what questions get asked and what answers are given" culture of the ref desks, it would be a disaster. We could try, as an experiment, not deleting or hatting anything where doing so is even slightly controversial (see my help desk example above for a deletion no sane person could possibly dispute), waiting until the trolls get the point that they will no longer be able to create infinite drama with a well-crafted troll, and see how that works for us. Then we could revisit your merge idea later. Remember, there is no Misplaced Pages policy that forces anyone to delete or collapse someone else's comment. Doing nothing is always an option on Misplaced Pages. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:43, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Actually, I should have said that the help desk would resume control of the ref desks. And since I have already proposed a moratorium on hatting and deleting, obviously I concur with that part of your comment. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:48, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

These examples are interesting, but none of them are particularly similar to the trolling on the RD. In fact, the only one which is similar to anything which causes controversy on the RD, is the medical advice one, but even the example shown isn't likely to be something that would cause problems on the RD. Wrongly placed questions are normally dealt with without issue here. So are questions in another language. Well for all of these, except perhaps when User:μηδείς randomly goes off the deep end on question. If there's little trolling on the help desk (which isn't shown by these examples anyway), it's difficult to imagine this is entirely because of the help desk culture somehow discourages, more likely the nature of the type of stuff the help desk deals with isn't conducive to trolling (although there has definitely been trolling before, e.g. the person who came from many different countries often small island nations targeted both the help desk and RD). Actually, it seems to me there's a good chance someone who wants to ask about whether Sweden is dangerous linking to a racist image may sometimes be directed to the RD at the Help Desk. Although I don't think that particular closure was controversial (and I would hope the HD would simply ignore such a question rather than directing them to the RD), how to deal with less implicit trolling sometimes is. That IP also seems to target article talk pages with proposals for improvement, they could perhaps try taking some of these questions to the help desk, but the truth is it's fairly simple to tell someone to take it to the talk page so it's really no skin off anyones back doing so. Nil Einne (talk) 04:56, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

I should perhaps clarify that I don't want to come across as completely negative. In particular, it's possible more normal medical advice questions are handled better there than here. If anyone has better examples, these would be interesting. OTOH, I can't help thinking there may be two issues here. One is what I was getting at earlier namely for any parts of the question which could be dealt with they may be directed to the RD anyway. The other is whether you even have people who'd give comments people feel are inappropriate. If you do, how do you deal with them? Do you just leave them? If you don't receive any, then while it's possible things may be somewhat better there, it seems there's only a small amount we can learn from there as to how we can improve things here when it comes to medical advice questions. Two of the big linked problems we have here when it comes to medical advice questions are:

1) What level of commentary is allowed when there is a medical advice question, in other words how far is too far in providing answers to questions which appear to be medical advice. For example, if someone says they get headaches after whatever and these headaches feel like whatever with whatever frequency, if someone says these are due to stress and the person should try and destress but otherwise there's nothing to worry about with links to a few articles is this acceptable? Many on the RD feel it isn't, is this sort of thing allowed on the help desk?

2) How to we prevent such inappropriate advice, and how do we deal with cases when there is what some feel is a inappropriate advice. Deleting the answers which are inappropriate is a common suggestion, and I'm all for it, but of course that's still deletion and is often equally a source of controversy, even in cases when most feel the comment was inappropriate. (And of course getting back to what I said earlier, it's ultimately impossible to know for sure whether others are going to feel the same unless you seek feedback somehow. So even if you feel something is inappropriate you either need to discuss it here, delete the answer and bring it here, or delete it and see if there is any discussion.)

Nil Einne (talk) 05:51, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

There is a basic assumption in the above which is "we get undesirable questions and answers and thus must react by doing X" (followed by a discussion about whether to start doing Y as well or abandoning X and Y and doing Z). I am questioning that basic assumption. I believe based on what happens in dozens of other places on Misplaced Pages,that you have cause and effect reversed, and that the reason you have so many undesirable questions and answers is because you do X, Y, or Z. You are fighting fire with gasoline/petrol.

To answer your specific questions:

• For example, if someone says they get headaches after whatever and these headaches feel like whatever with whatever frequency, if someone says these are due to stress and the person should try and destress but otherwise there's nothing to worry about with links to a few articles: Ignore the answer, or give what you think is a better answer, or simply reply by saying that Misplaced Pages does not give medical advice with a link to the policy that says that. If you believe that not giving medical advice on Misplaced Pages is forbidden, put a warning template on the user page of the person giving the medical advice (can't find warning template for that? Either you are wrong about what is forbidden or you need to create a new warning template) If the behavior repeats, report it at WP:ANI.
• How to we prevent such inappropriate advice, and how do we deal with cases when there is what some feel is a inappropriate advice.: You don't prevent what you see as user misbehavior. That's not your job. Your job is to let the administrators deal with user misbehavior. Your role is posting warning templates and reporting behavior after being warned to the appropriate noticeboard.

The basic problem here is that everyone who deletes or hats a question or discussion that they don't like is trying to do the job of a Misplaced Pages Administrator (controlling the behavior of others here) without bothering to go through the admin election process and without the tools (page protection, blocking users, removing material from the page history) that we give admins so they can effectively control user behavior. So stop. Just stop. Let this be handled exactly the way user misbehavior (real or imagined) is handled everywhere else on Misplaced Pages. The deleting and hatting is clearly not working, and another million words on this talk page will not cause it to suddenly start working. --Guy Macon (talk) 07:15, 26 February 2015 (UTC)