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			== Calypso's objections ==

			{{ping\|Calypsomusic}}; we asked you to bring forward your objections so that they could be addressed and the GA process could move forward. You've begun the RfC, but you haven't brought forth any other objections. Can we assume that this is your only issue? If not, you should raise them now, rather than sequentially. ] (]) 22:18, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

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Bharatiya Janata Party was nominated as a Social sciences and society good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (February 6, 2015). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated.

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Sikh Violence

The anti-Sikh violence is utterly irrelevant to this article. They were perpetrated by the Congress, and some Congress leaders were punished for it, as they should have been, and others were not, for various dodgy reasons; but all of that has nothing to do with the BJP. The source mentions the riots, and suggests a link to the BJP. The new source simply mentions the Congress role in the sikh riots; why are they relevant here? Mentioning them here is OR of the highest order. If you want context, find a source linking those riots to the Congress, or that shows the relevance of the sikh riots to this page. Since you seem so worried about them, I have tweaked it to read "hindu-muslim" violence, thus excluding the sikh riots. Vanamonde93 (talk) 06:46, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

The statement needs clarity. It implicates BJP for riots in early 1980s when we can clearly see Congress was in power and involved in riots. The first election that BJP fought was in 1984 where it won a meagre 2 seats. I have put back the clarification tag. You can propose how you want to make that clarification if you are not okay with the way I made it. --AmritasyaPutra 07:04, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

I have made a change, to address this issue. I don't see any further need for "clarification." The text now only mentions "Hindu-muslim" violence; there is no source showing INC involvement in those in that period. Moreoever, the source says "As it happened, the formation of the BJP heralded a wave of religious violence in northern and western India. There were major Hindu-Muslim riots in the Uttar Pradesh towns of Moradabad (August 1980) and Meerut (September–October 1982); in the Bihar town of Biharsharif in April–May 1981; in the Gujarat towns of Vadodara (September 1981), Godhra (October 1981) and Ahmedabad (January 1982); in Hyderabad, capital of Andhra Pradesh, in September 1983; and in the Maharashtra towns of Bhiwandi and Bombay in May–June 1984. In each case the riots ran on for days, with much loss of life and property, and were finally quelled only by armed force." Guha, 2007. It's pretty clear what he is saying. He says heralded, paraphrased here as "marked." What are you looking for? A statement saying "oh, but the Congress was also involved in riots?" that is irrelevant. Vanamonde93 (talk) 07:13, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

You may read these biggest Hindu-Muslim riots of early 1980s: 1980 Moradabad riots, Mandai massacre and Nellie massacre. BJP is still non-existent in Mandai and Nellie after 35 years much lesser in 1980s! Yes, Congress government was reigning when these three incidents happened. Summariy saying early 1980s and implicating BJP for rioting does encompass the incidents that I mention and is clearly misleading hence a clarification is much needed. --AmritasyaPutra 07:29, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Let me get this straight. Are you saying the source is incorrect, or are you suggesting mis-representation? The text DOES NOT say the BJP was responsible for any of these. It says the riots occurred soon after the formation of the BJP. It is necessary, because the next sentence goes on to say that the BJP actually moderated its agenda in those years. Vanamonde93 (talk) 07:34, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I am saying same thing as you, BJP was not responsible for it. But the context and the present form suggests otherwise. I have tweaked it to remove that ambiguity, if you simply keep reverting I will have no choice but to stick the clarify tag and wait for you to come up with a middle path, I am open to suggestions. --AmritasyaPutra 08:48, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Nuclear policy

The quote from the source; "Yet the BJP chose to disregard the likely adverse consequences and departed from India's post- 1974 "nuclear option" policy, which had reserved for India the right to weaponize its nuclear capabilities but had not overtly declared its weapons capability. National governments of varying political persuasions had adhered to this strategy for more than two decades." Sumit Ganguly 1999. The source itself refers to it as a "policy;" nonetheless, I have reworded it to read "strategy," since it was obviously not a codified policy. Vanamonde93 (talk) 06:54, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, there is no such policy. Thank you. --AmritasyaPutra 07:10, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Neutrality of this article is disputed

I have added a NPOV tag to the article. The discussion is in the GA review page. --Calypsomusic (talk) 13:12, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Vanamonde93 has removed the NPOV tag. This is against NPOV policy. Please wait until the issues are resolved. I have explained why the article is not neutral. This needs to be resolved before removing the NPOV tag. --Calypsomusic (talk) 13:21, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

No, it most certainly is not. I quote "This template should only be applied to articles that are reasonably believed to lack a neutral point of view. The neutral point of view is determined by the prevalence of a perspective in high-quality, independent, reliable secondary sources, not by its prevalence among Misplaced Pages editors or the public." You have only raised personal concerns on the talk page, and the only secondary sources you have provided are an out-dated Sangh Newspaper and Koenrad Elst, who is a fringe source. Vanamonde93 (talk) 13:27, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

What has happened in the GA review was highly unfortunate. I didn't follow closely what were your concerns earlier but I do remember the RFC. Now I also see that you raised issues which either were addressed at that time and/or the reviewer answered them. If you have anything new (emphasis on that) to say, do it now or else drop the stick. How long can you expect everyone else to AGF? And please no walls of text, there's a limit to how much anyone can read. -Ugog Nizdast (talk) 14:56, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

@Calypsomusic: I came over to find out why this GA nom failed, and notice that you are contesting its "neutrality." Note that neutrality on Misplaced Pages means fairly representing all the view points that exist among reliable third party sources. So, to argue the lack of neutrality, you need to specify what reliable third party sources have been omitted. You also need to show that the proportion of the viewpoints in the article differs from their relative prominence among the scholarly sources. So, can you tell us what sources you are claiming to be unrepresented? Kautilya3 (talk) 17:23, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

From this bold edit that Calypsomusic made , I picked up the following 4 sources, which he believes will make the article "neutral."

Reddy, Sheila (14 April 2008). "Interview "I Was Prepared To Take The Risk"". Outlook India.

This is Advani speaking, not a third party source.

Elst, K. (2001). Decolonizing the Hindu mind: Ideological development of Hindu revivalism. New Delhi: Rupa & Co.

Elst is a strong supporter of the Hindutva movements and not exactly third party. But, still, if the information he wants to take from here is not contentious, it can be used.

Venkatesan, V. (29 September 2000). "The Laxman line". Frontline.

Once again, Bangaru Laxman is not a third party source.

"SC comes to the aid of Chakmas". Organiser. 11 February 1996.

Organiser is not a mainstream newspaper and, hence, not a reliable source. It is also part of the Sangh Parivar and so not third party.

On the whole, other than possibly Elst, none of the other sources can even be cited here as per Misplaced Pages policies. If Calypsomusic wants to contest neutrality, he needs to bring much stronger sources, especially to contest Ramachandra Guha, a Padma Bhushan-winning academic. He also wants to paint Guha as a "critic" of the BJP. I have seen nothing to say that he was a critic. The book from which the material is taken is a standard book on the history of independent India that is top-class, having put Guha in the top-league of the world's historians. There is nothing to indicate that Guha is biased and needs to be countered by other sources. Kautilya3 (talk) 22:28, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

This is much the same thing I have been asking Calypso to do for a long while now. Accusations of lack of neutrality mean nothing as long as they are not backed up by sources. Yes, Calypso's changes were reverted; but that is because they did not back them with a single reliable source. With due lack of humility, I have read the majority of academic journal articles that discuss the BJP, and the policy section that I wrote reflects those. Moreover, these scholars are not "critics" of the BJP; they are third party observers. If I had included criticisms of the BJP made by its political opponents (which would be somewhat ridiculous) then it would be appropriate to present the BJP's view on every one of those issues; but that is not the case. Political issues become a terrible mess if described from the point of view of the participants, so we use neutral sources, and coverage in those determines coverage in the article. Even so, "critical" material has been attributed. Giving further space to BJP voices would be undue weight. TL;DR: @Calypsomusic: If you want neutrality concerns taken seriously, provide serious sources backing them up, or prepare to be ignored. Vanamonde93 (talk) 04:41, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

This is an article on an existing political party, so the neutrality is all the more important, especially if it were a Good Article. Neutrality means including all signficant viewpoints, and the BJP and Hindu nationalist pov is obviously significant in an article on the BJP. I gave many examples of biased sections where the BJP pov is not represented. In addition to the fact that articles on existing political parties are contentious and thus difficult to achieve npov, it is also the case that the majority of academic sources do have an anti-BJP and anti-Hindu nationalist bias. Therefore, it would maybe help, to include more sources with only a moderate anti-Hindu nationalist bias (for example, Heuze is moderatly biased against the BJP.) The problem is that some statements and sections in the article are biased without additional opinions as I explained in the GA section.

The quote from Advani is not directly quoted from a publication by Advani, but from an article on Advani, so it could be ok. In the Times of India source I also added, the same is supported by Lala Ram Gupta. Regarding using Elst on Integral Humanism. His opinion on Integral Humanism (in a book based on his PhD thesis) is not contentious or controversial, and his treatment on this particular topic seems simply to be best scholarly treatment in secondary sources (he says in the book that he is the first scholar to examine it in this level of detail). If this happens to be the best source available for this particular topic, and his opinion on this is not controversial, I don't see a reason not to use it. As I said, I'm busy the next two weeks, so can work more on this afterwards.

All this shows is a spectacular misunderstanding of our policies on neutrality, and especially WP:DUE. Our coverage is based on coverage in reliable secondary sources; you have consistently failed to provide such. Policies aside, commonsense dictates that you would not write about a party using sources from within the party; every political party, from the most humane to the most brutal and bigoted, has justified its actions, would you include their justifications in every instance? Preposterous. Your allegation that academic sources are anti-BJP is quite ridiculous, especially as you fail to back it up; academics tend to be criticize of virtually every mainstream party. Quotes from advani are reliable sources for those quotes, and nothing else. Elst is a fringe source, a previous RfC with which you are well acquainted established that there is no consensus to include him here even in the Further Reading, let alone as a source. If you have a truly policy-bound argument of non-neutrality, I would like to hear it; as of now, you seem content to ignore the "in reliable sources" part of the NPOV policy, and so your argument carries no weight. Besides, you had six months before the GA review in which to raise these issues; the fact that you began editing again precisely during the review, and edited no other page, is interesting, to say the least. Vanamonde93 (talk) 14:01, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

@Calypsomusic: Thanks for getting back. To make progress, you need to start policy-based discussions. For example, the wp:rs policy states that articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. It also states that we publish the opinions only of reliable authors, and not the opinions of Wikipedians who have read and interpreted primary source material. You are doing the precisely the opposite. You are asking us to value your opinions over and above those of the reliable sources of highest quality (Ramachandra Guha). That cannot be done.

I understand that Advani has stated that he didn't make any anti-Muslim speeches. I have no reason to doubt that. But that is just one point of evidence among a multitude of facts that the scholars consider before making up their minds. We have to report what they say, not our opinions. In this particular case, I think it would be ok to make the briefest possible mention of Advani's disclaimer, something along the lines of "although Advani himself has denied that he made any anti-Muslim speeches." (Note that this does not actually contradict the quote from Guha because he did not state that Advani made anti-Muslim speeches.)
Regarding Integral Humanism, I don't think any of us have any objections to including details about it. But nobody has been able to say anything substantive about it. The page on Integral humanism has been undeveloped for several years, with outstanding questions raised on the talk page for over 2 years. If you are able to, please work on that page and provide detail. Then we will be able to summarise it here. This can be done any time, and has nothing to do with the GA nomination.

Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 13:47, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Calypsomusic, it has been a week and a half, and you have not responded to the points here. Specifically, we require a reliable source contradicting the narratives in the article, which you have not yet provided. Can we take your silence to mean that you can live with this version? Vanamonde93 (talk) 00:34, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

I said two times that I'm too busy this month, and can work on it in March. What was not clear about it? The concerns have been written in the GA review section, you have not replied to most of them. Could you please reply to all of them? --Calypsomusic (talk) 13:02, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

BJP & RSS to be Given the title of terrorist by a american Court in April?

I see That the BJP is a branch of the RSS, would this latest news update on The NewYork Court order effect The BJP as The BJP is linked to the RSS & would this be a excuse For a future labeling of BJP members? If so would this Ref be needed Here Or just on the RSS wiki?

http://sikhsiyasat.net/2015/02/04/usa-new-york-court-to-hear-sikhs-for-justice-lawsuit-against-rss-in-april/92.236.96.38 (talk) 12:58, 8 February 2015 (UTC)Caplock

The source provided is not a reliable one. Furthermore, the opinion of a court doesn't hold very much weight on Misplaced Pages; if a verdict is produced, and reliable secondary sources give it coverage, then we could consider mentioning it. Vanamonde93 (talk) 13:42, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 12 February 2015

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

link Gujarat to wiki page Gujarat in the 2002 violence area.. Bhavesh.p.more (talk) 08:04, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Done We don't usually do this if there is already another link in the article (see WP:OVERLINK). However, the links are far enough apart that I have made an exception in this case. If anyone disagrees, please let me know and I will revert. — Mr. Stradivarius 09:47, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

1984 and 1989

The article talks about the success or failure in elections purely by the number of seats won. By this measure, the 1984 performance seems to be a failure and 1989 a grand success. However, the votes received in 1984 were 7%, the same as what the Jana Sangh got in 1971. Similarly, the votes received in 1989 were 11%, only marginally better than 9.4% that Jana Sangh received in 1967. So, neither was 1984 a great failure nor was 1989 a great success. The reason for the large difference in seats is the strength of the competition. In 1984, the Congress was strong and, in 1989, it was weak. This has nothing much to do with the BJP's own performance. It doesn't seem like Malik & Singh understand these subtleties all that well. I am going to cut them out and use a more erudite source like Jaffrelot. Kautilya3 (talk) 01:31, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Kautilya3, I would not cut them out entirely. Jaffrelot takes a more sociological approach to this, while Malik and Singh are coming from a more political science oriented background, and as such they have different things to contribute. In a first-past-the-post system like India has, absolute percentages count for little, and concentration for much more. Sure, the Congress's strength made a big difference, but the Janata's popularity also seems to have inflated the BJP's vote tally in 1984 without getting it any seats because the votes were so diffuse; the Ram Janmabhoomi movement, on the other hand, concentrated that nine percent of votes in the Hindi heartland, and gave it a lot of seats. We can include Jaffrelot, by all means, but Malik's narrative (which Guha also seems to buy into) doesn't seem to be off the mark. The comparisons to the Jana Sangh, to my mind, don't mean too much, because the same variability of the Congress also affected it; 1971 was the election after the war, when Indira Gandhi had far more support than in 1967 when she was a relative unknown, and the Congress was at war with itself. All in all, might we discuss the changes here first? Vanamonde93 (talk) 01:47, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

The Congress got 43% vote in 1971 and 49% in 1984, even though the Jana Sangh/BJP got the same votes in the two cases. That substantiates my assertion that the competition was stronger. (Can you see that the BJP's winning chances went down because the other parties lost votes?) I don't believe Malik and Singh understand numbers well enough to build valid theories. But, in any case, I will use Jaffrelot as the authoritative source, not myself :-) Kautilya3 (talk) 09:19, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

(response both to this and to your tp) I'm not underestimating anything, my friend, and I am personally a fan of Jaffrelot as a source. It's just that given a topic so complex and so sensitive, and given further that most media coverage is not good enough for this article, we need to rigidly balance academic views. You may feel that Noorani and Malik are not quote there with respect to the BJP; a priori, though, they do need to be given weight. Malik may occasionally be superficial, but I would also question the wisdom of looking at nationwide vote tallies; they might give the broadest of brush strokes, but little beyond that. Add Jaffrelot, by all means. Or wait until I get back to my good university library; then I'll add him myself; but not to the exclusion of all others. Vanamonde93 (talk) 09:10, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

First of all, the statement we have in the article saying that the Vajpayee strategy was "unsuccessful" because the BJP got only 2 Lok Sabha seats is quite naive. It is based on the assumption that seat-wins form the only measure of "success", which most people won't agree with. Political analysts at least look at the vote share in order to gauge success. By this measure, the BJP got over 7% vote, the second largest in that election, and similar to what the Jana Sangh got in a comparable election previously. So, our editorialising, if that is what it is, is misplaced.
Secondly, the Vajpayee strategy was highly unpopular inside the RSS as well as the RSS activists within the BJP. The RSS was also openly supporting Congress(I) throughout 1980-84 and the Congress(I) had turned Hindu traditionalist. Despite all the moderation, the BJP was still a "political untouchable" due to the dual membership controversy of the Janata times. So, the forces were arrayed against Vajpayee.
Thirdly, the Vajpayee strategy of moderation was crucial in the long term to make the BJP respectable to the centrist voters and as a potential ally to the centrist parties. We could say that Vajpayee laid a foundation for his future Premiership right there in his 1980-84strategy.

The phenomenal rise of the BJP since those times owes equally to both the Vajpayee moderation and the Advani hard line. Through this dual-pronged strategy, the BJP managed to have its cake and eat it too. We would be remiss not to recognize these facts. Kautilya3 (talk) 12:43, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

In fact, if you read far enough into the Malik & Singh article, you read "However, the party's leadership was not disheartened as it found that, compared with previous years, the BJP did not fare as poorly as the tally of seats indicated. It concluded that the Congress (I) had benefited from a massive sympathy vote following the murder of Indira Gandhi and that the BJP had lost roughly only one per-cent of votes." (p. 329) The table on p. 330 shows the 1980vote share as 8.6%. I don't know how they calculate it, as it was part of an "alliance." Kautilya3 (talk) 14:07, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Clarify tag

Since AmritasyaPutra adds tags like this and refuses to do his homework, here is the information. The paragraph summarises pages 301-312 of Jaffrelot, 1996. The fact that the communal violence rose "sharply" during the Janata Government and that the former Jana Sanghis were implicated in Aligarph and Jamshedpur riots in 1978-79 are both mentioned on page. 301. The Aligarh riot was investigated by the Minorities Commission and the Jamshedpur riot was investigated by a three-member commission headed by Justice Jitendra Narain. Kautilya3 (talk) 00:19, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

There is also a direct quote from the Jitendra Narain report here: . Kautilya3 (talk) 00:23, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

I fixed it. Why sarcasm and arrogance? It is obligatory to address a clarification tag, deleting it without any discussion and accusing editor of misconduct in edit summary is not the way. --AmritasyaPutra 03:13, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

RFC on Godhra train burning

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The section on the Godhra train burning in the BJP article is using weasel words to avoid stating by whom the train was burned, even though the article BJP contains paragraph upon paragraph on the related Gujarat incidents. It's like saying that Muath al-Kasasbeh was burned alive, but avoiding to state that he was burned by ISIS militants.

The Godhra train burning happened when a Muslim mob set fire with highly inflammable liquids on a train carrying Hindu pilgrims and hindered the fire fighting systems. A court convicted 31 Muslims for the incident and the conspiracy for the crime.

The section should clearly state that the train was set on fire by a mob and that people have been convicted for it. (as the[REDACTED] articles already state).

Secondly, the paragraph should also state the official numbers of the victims in the riots that followed (800 Muslims, 250 Hindus), and not only estimates which could be inflated and/or ignore Hindu victims.

I propose to change the statement:

On 27 February 2002, a train carrying Hindu pilgrims was burned outside the town of Godhra, killing 59 people. The incident was seen as an attack upon Hindus, and sparked off massive anti-Muslim violence across the state of Gujarat that lasted several weeks. The death toll estimated was as high as 2000, while 150,000 were displaced.

to:

On 27 February 2002, a Muslim mob set on fire a train wagon carrying passengers returning from Ayodhya, killing 59 people, including twenty-seven women and ten children, who were burned alive. This incident sparked off a cycle of communal violence across the state of Gujarat that lasted several weeks. The riots resulted in the deaths of 790 Muslims and 254 Hindus, and many more were forced to seek shelter in refugee camps. Some observers have estimated the death toll to be as high as 2000, while 150,000 were displaced.

Also AP has shown that the article gives too much weight on Godhra/Babri/Gujarat riots (which are all related). Indeed, in the period 1980 to 1998 (18 years), about 95% of the article is on this issue. Did nothing else happen in these 18 years for the BJP?.

--Calypsomusic (talk) 12:58, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Oppose - There is no scholarly consensus on how the fire started. The various viewpoints can be covered, and are being covered, on the Godhra train burning page. It is undue to get into those issues on this page. There is widespread consensus, however, that the ensuing communal violence has consolidated the Hindu vote and helped the BJP and Modi get re-elected. I think the current paragraph is at the right level of detail. Kautilya3 (talk) 15:18, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Did BJP do Godhra? What were the ~30 odd Muslims convicted in Godhra burning case for? Ridiculous. Anyways, my important concern is more than 50% of 35 years of history of BJP is Babri and Godhra together. Isn't it unbalanced? --AmritasyaPutra 17:16, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

So, you are arguing for fewer words, whereas Calypsomusic is wanting more words? Please feel free to raise other issues separately, without interfering with the RFC. Kautilya3 (talk) 18:02, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

I responded to your bias and also raised concern of balance. --AmritasyaPutra 23:49, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

The point is that if the article goes into that much detail as it does, then it should also detail that the fire was started by a mob, with 30+ convictions in court, and the official numbers of the victims, which also show that there were Hindu victims as well.

Oppose - Going by the presented sources alone, which are self-published and unreliable. The first site has an author with questionable credentials. The other two are just blogs. C'mon...if you want the wording to be changed, we are going to need proper reliable sources. -Ugog Nizdast (talk) 10:34, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

These are secondary sources: NDTV, theguardian. What is your take on more than 50% of 35 years of BJP devoted to Godhra and Babri, is it not unbalanced? --AmritasyaPutra 10:53, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Where do these sources support the wording of the RFC? Kautilya3 (talk) 12:11, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that's not what the OP for this has asked for, regarding that we could start a separate topic. The weight given to the sections "2002 Gujarat violence" and "Babri Masjid demolition and the Hindutva movement" among the main "BJP (1980–present)" header seems fine to me since I assume that's how the current reliable sources highlight it.

The OP has tagged NPOV to one of those sections and started this. I assume the NPOV concern is only what's asked here. -Ugog Nizdast (talk) 13:32, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Nowhere did I imply that these sources should be used in the article. The statements can already be found in the Godhra/Gujarat articles. --Calypsomusic (talk) 12:28, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

If you don't want them used, why bring them up? If they are not of sufficient reliability to use in the article, they are of no use on the talk page either. The articles don't say that the train was burnt by a mob; the articles describe the controversy, as they should. Vanamonde93 (talk) 12:51, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

You also seem to be one of the main contributors on the Godhra train burning article (not implying that it is a problem, but should be stated).

Oppose As the others have already said, there is no scholarly consensus on how the fire began, and the majority of them tend to actually oppose the conspiracy theory. None of the sources provided by Calypso are reliable. Furthermore, court rulings have little weight here, and actually the conviction is not very relevant here. Similarly, the academic source is the more appropriate one for the death toll. I will address the concern about too much weight below. Vanamonde93 (talk) 06:45, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Are you saying that the fire was started by the Hindus themselves, that they burned themselves alive? As I said above, nowhere did I imply that these sources should be used in the article. The statements can already be found in the Godhra/Gujarat articles. --Calypsomusic (talk) 12:28, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

The problem here is that the article gives weight to one view (the claim that 2000 or as some say even 3000 Muslims died), while it doesn't mention other at least as notable views (the view that 800 Muslims and 250 Hindus died). To be neutral, the official numbers, or at least both numbers should be mentioned. --Calypsomusic (talk) 12:34, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

No, they should not, because "official" statistics have much less weight on Misplaced Pages than scholarly ones. You said you feel like the section has too much weight; now you want to expand it by adding more statistics? Moreover, the train burning is not the important part of the section; the riots are. Vanamonde93 (talk) 12:51, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Note I have notified the largest contributors to the riots page, the train burning page, and this page to vote here, with the exception of those who are inactive or blocked (of which there are a surprising number). Vanamonde93 (talk) 10:18, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Oppose. Banerjee committe which clearly says that it was an accident happened as a consequence of those Rishis igniting the stove to cook their own food inside the train. Banerjee committe report clearly says this with evidences of fuel not being poured from outside. This was submitted in the parliament and passed. But was made to rejected by the court. It seems to be a question of fact rather than the question of law. There have been a lot of conspiracies which were not brought out to the world by the law and law makers. Wasif (talk) 14:25, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

So you believe it was the Hindu's fault and they burned themselves alive while cooking food. But why didn't the 60 Hindus then move out of the train compartment or out of the train when the fire started? --Calypsomusic (talk) 13:12, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Oppose, there may be a way to introduce the fact that the attack is widely believed to have been by Muslims, but the proposed "Muslim mob" wording is not the right way to do it. Perhaps something along the lines that the attack was attributed to local Muslims, and generated strong anti-Muslim sentiment (and BJP fanned the flames). ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 15:51, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Request: Colors

Please change colors of some areas in the picture . A coalition can be in power but a coalition be cannot be in opposition. Further in Telangana Jana reddy of the congress is the leader of oppostion in assembly , then how can nda be the main opposition. . Moved from text of article by Donner60. Donner60 (talk) 22:08, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that picture is a bit of an issue, and my artistic abilities have never been the best. I'll see what I can do. However, it's certainly possible for an alliance to be in the opposition; the NDA remained an alliance through ten years of being in the opposition in Parliament. Vanamonde93 (talk) 06:37, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

So what the IP says is right? Telangana is in the wrong colour in present version of File:Indian states 2015 NDA.png? If work needs to be done, the file history there shows that one editor has been regularly updating it and could be contacted for this. -Ugog Nizdast (talk) 14:35, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Relative weight

AP and Calypso have been raising concerns over the relative weight given to the different history sections. These concerns are a little misplaced. Here's why; any analysis of the BJP's history has to include the Jana Sangh, because they were distinct bodies only in a superficial way, and much of the later ideology was shaped by the earlier organization. So, looking at the history section as a whole, it contains 2306 words, excluding titles and such. Of these, 187, or 8%, are related to the riots; hardly undue weight, considering how much coverage is given to the party's role therein. Of the rest, 651 words, or 28%, cover the entire Babri Masjid agitation. This is a 16-year period, and the rise of the BJP from a relatively minor party to that of a national party was very closely related to this movement; the coverage, if anything, is a little low. Calculating a combined weight for the riots and the Masjid makes very little sense, because they are not directly related. Vanamonde93 (talk) 07:39, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

I think AP's point is that the Babri demolition and the Gujarat 2002 (not riots in general) are given undue weightage. But I think these were important elements of the BJP's rise to power, and the weight given is commensurate with their importance. However, I would feel more comfortable if the article comments on the role of these campaigns on BJP's rise, backed by sources. But I don't see this as an urgent issue. Kautilya3 (talk) 12:19, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

These two events are more than 50% of the 35 years of history of the BJP in the article presently. Did BJP do the Godhra train burning and subsequent riots? Of course mention them, but explaining exclusively these and convey... here you have the history of BJP... is odd. --AmritasyaPutra 18:20, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Did I not just demonstrate that it is not actually 50%? If you are going to be legalistic and interpret BJP history as beginning in 1980, then chew on this; the Babri Masjid section describes 16 years, or 46% of this period; so once again, the relative weight is entirely appropriate. Nobody says that the "BJP did Godhra;" but Godhra and the BJP are inseparable in much of the coverage that the BJP has received since, and per WP:NPOV, and WP:DUE, we have to cover it. Vanamonde93 (talk) 22:06, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

No, you did not. If you want to hammer your opinion only and remain absolutely closed to any suggestions then chew on this: I will drop any discussion and goto article edit links directly. --AmritasyaPutra 00:39, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Two can play at that game. If you want your suggestions to be taken seriously, I suggest you back them up with evidence. Particularly, explain why you think they are undue weight (as I did), rather than simply insisting that it is undue weight. Vanamonde93 (talk) 10:25, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

You show intention of fighting and not collaboration. I have explained my concern and it can be discussed and a middle way found. It is a pity that you believe that Godhra and Babri are all there is to 35 years of history of this party. Your tone reeks of a fighting attitude and you show zero intention of any discussion, rather, it is quite clear you created this section to declare your preconceive decision. By all means, continue, I will not waste my time with you here. --AmritasyaPutra 11:17, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

I think too that the article gives too much weight on Godhra/Babri/Gujarat riots (which are all related). Indeed, in the period 1980 to 1998 (18 years), about 90% of the article is on this issue. Did nothing else happen in these 18 years for the BJP?. --Calypsomusic (talk) 12:30, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

That makes very little sense. The demolition happened in 1992; the movement lasted many years before that, and its impact was crucial to the rise of the BJP. Every source discussing the BJP's history agrees on that. There was plenty of other stuff as well; the article covers every election in that period, and the government collapse. The Gujarat riots happened in 2002; what on earth do you mean by saying that it dominates the period before 1998? And why on earth are you clubbing two phenomena that occurred several years apart, and calling them one issue? Vanamonde93 (talk) 12:40, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Please fellas, calm down. If any of you want my two annas on this, I say this: one side says there is too much weight given to at least two areas; would adding content to the remaining areas solve this issue? Just like how these two areas are covered by the present sources, shouldn't the sources detail those areas of lesser coverage too? If the current sources don't, I don't see any major weight issue. The next distant possibility is maybe there could be equally reliable sources to compare with, but that depends on whether anybody can bring them here. -Ugog Nizdast (talk) 16:40, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Y Can't agree more. Yes, those events need not go, other events need to come in. And we need to find a middle way. As far as I know newspaper is wp:secondary and unless they are contradicted by another source they can be used too. --AmritasyaPutra 17:09, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

There is no bar against newspaper reports per se, but when we are discussing such historical happenings over a long period of time, newspapers won't make good sources. We would end up cherry picking stuff which may have no scholarly standing. Doesn't the Malik & Singh article have enough material? Kautilya3 (talk) 17:24, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

There is, see WP:HISTRS; so emphasis on "equally reliable sources to compare with". Yes, newspapers are secondary sources but so is all what is considered as RSes. In general, RSes are third-party secondary sources. Remember that what is a RS also depends on what subject we are using it for. An history article, will use journals by historians (preferably well-cited among their peers); similarly, scientific peer-reviewed journals for a biology article. Newspaper sources are used in day-to-day topics and in scholarly topics such as these, they can only be used to supplement or add basic information. -Ugog Nizdast (talk) 18:47, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

When I rewrote this article approximately a year ago, I very deliberately did not use newspaper sources. Newspapers give in-the-moment coverage, and their reports are often inadequate with the benefit of hindsight. This is true for incidents, but is even more true for analysis of any kind. A slight exception could be made for articles that look back at older events; even there, though, they tend to be questionable. A second problem, in some ways more serious, is that there are hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of newspaper articles about the BJP. It is absolutely impossible to figure out due weight. HISTRS is already limiting their use, but what I'm trying to say is that even in the absence of HISTRS, newspaper sources in this article (and any article with such huge coverage) is a bad idea. I thoroughly support the use of journal articles; I would just add the qualifier that they should be articles that cover some aspect of the BJP in some detail (of which there are quite a few, but not an overwhelming number) rather than having tangential coverage (of which there are exponentially more). Ugog, I appreciate your input, as always; in this instance, though, it might be a good idea for you to take a gander at the distribution of sources yourself. A huge amount of the academic coverage of the BJP is devoted to the two things at issue here; I had to dig far deeper to cover the rest of the article. If we were to simply go by coverage, the riots section would be three times the size. Vanamonde93 (talk) 12:37, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

That may be because many political commentators focus on the controversies, but this article is supposed to be on the political party, not just the controversies. Do the books which are only about the BJP, like those of Ahuja Gurdas, and not just on Hindutva in general, also focus that much on riots?

In any case, there is also a lot of pertinent information completely missing in this article, like a section on the names and symbols of the BJP (the BJP flag), the environmental and energy policies of the BJP, etc. --Calypsomusic (talk) 12:58, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Sources, Calypso, sources. Find RS covering these topics in detail, and I will add them myself. I am not sure what you are referring to when you say "political commentaries," but journal articles in the history, sociology and political science areas most certainly tend to focus on the riots, and before that, on the Babri Masjid movement. Vanamonde93 (talk) 13:03, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

We all are RSS only

“RSS is not an external force. I am from the RSS. The Prime Minister himself is a RSS volunteer. We are (RSS members) from childhood and will remain till we are alive,” Singh said at the HT Leadership summit. What our Physicist Home Minister is saying is that the RSS is not an "external" body to be influencing the government. RSS is running the Government. BJP is just a brand name being used by the RSS. This is the point that our article misses. So does all of Misplaced Pages as well as the national and international press. How do we fix it? Kautilya3 (talk) 22:32, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Sounds like original research or a conspiracy theory. He does not say anything even remotely close to BJP being a brand name of the RSS.VictoriaGrayson 05:10, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

All right. So what exactly is he saying in your opinion? Why is RSS not an external force? Kautilya3 (talk) 07:27, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Kautilya3's statement "..This is the point that our article misses. So does all of Misplaced Pages as well as the national and international press." sums it up. --AmritasyaPutra 07:45, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Your time is better spent analysing Rajnath Singh's statements than analysing my statements. Kautilya3 (talk) 07:54, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Are you asking others to do "original analysis"?

Are you asking us to ignore your statements?

--AmritasyaPutra 08:18, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

The two-time President of the BJP is publicly contradicting the implicit assumption of our article that the BJP is an independent organisation. The BJP is not sometimes regarded as the political wing of the RSS. It is the political wing of the RSS. If you want to contradict it, please find a reliable source. Kautilya3 (talk) 09:03, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Kautilya3, in principle, I could agree with you; in practice, I find it far more productive to examine policy and activity than to look at precisely how closely related the two organizations are. Anybody who doesn't believe they are closely related is either extremely naive or has failed to read the sources; but the foreign policy of the BJP can be analysed as such without mentioning at every step that the RSS has a hand in forming it. Vanamonde93 (talk) 12:41, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Kautilya3, according to your logic the Republican party in America is merely the political wing of Protestantism since George W Bush and others say they are ardent Evangelicals.VictoriaGrayson 16:56, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Protestantism is a belief system; the RSS is an organization. The analogy is incorrect. This entire discussion, though, is not content related; keeping NOTFORUM in mind, I'd be glad if an uninvolved editor hats this. Vanamonde93 (talk) 22:13, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

References

No Sangh influence, we all are RSS only: Rajnath, Hindustan Times, 25 November 2014

Calypso's objections

@Calypsomusic:; we asked you to bring forward your objections so that they could be addressed and the GA process could move forward. You've begun the RfC, but you haven't brought forth any other objections. Can we assume that this is your only issue? If not, you should raise them now, rather than sequentially. Vanamonde93 (talk) 22:18, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

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