Misplaced Pages

Talk:Circumcision: Difference between revisions

Article snapshot taken from[REDACTED] with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
Browse history interactively← Previous editNext edit →Content deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 21:19, 4 March 2015 editPopish Plot (talk | contribs)602 edits When secondary sources have unfounded claims.← Previous edit Revision as of 23:39, 5 March 2015 edit undoTumadoireacht (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users2,474 edits Using the WHO as a main secondary source and giving it a lot of weight: boy you gotta carry that weightNext edit →
Line 319: Line 319:
::If there are high quality sources having this discussion we can comment on them. Do you have any high quality sources that do this? ] (] · ] · ]) 00:27, 2 March 2015 (UTC) ::If there are high quality sources having this discussion we can comment on them. Do you have any high quality sources that do this? ] (] · ] · ]) 00:27, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
:::::: Do you know if there is a WHO secondary source saying circumcision is economically beneficial? ] (]) 18:53, 2 March 2015 (UTC) :::::: Do you know if there is a WHO secondary source saying circumcision is economically beneficial? ] (]) 18:53, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

:::::::::Selling Circumcision-Harvested foreskins is certainly profitable -- here is Scientific American on the subject --

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-cut-above-the-rest-wrin/

But for reasons best known to themselves, a small but well coordinated group of editors and admins are determined that this aspect of the Circumcision Trade be never mentioned here.(along with forced circumcisions, tribal circumcisions that cause death HIV spread in Africa, and ultra-orthodox Jewish circumcisions that spread herpes and death to infants in New York, Israel and elsewhere.)
Jewish philosophers such as Philo ( Circumcision -" the excision of all superfluous and excessive pleasure"and Maimonides("the main purpose of the act is to repress sexual pleasure,) do not get a look-in neither. Oh Well. At this stage the unbalance of the article is so marked that it is risible.--—&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 23:39, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Revision as of 23:39, 5 March 2015

Skip to table of contents
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Circumcision article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
Article policies
Find medical sources: Source guidelines · PubMed · Cochrane · DOAJ · Gale · OpenMD · ScienceDirect · Springer · Trip · Wiley · TWL

Template:Vital article

Censorship warningMisplaced Pages is not censored.
Images or details contained within this article may be graphic or otherwise objectionable to some readers, to ensure a quality article and complete coverage of its subject matter. For more information, please refer to Misplaced Pages's content disclaimer regarding potentially objectionable content and options for not seeing an image.
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.
Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated. Please read recent comments, look in the archives, and review the FAQ before commenting.
Peace dove with olive branch in its beakPlease stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.
Good articleCircumcision has been listed as one of the Natural sciences good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
February 3, 2013Peer reviewReviewed
February 12, 2013Good article nomineeListed
Current status: Good article
This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconMen's Issues High‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Men's Issues, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Men's Issues articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Men's IssuesWikipedia:WikiProject Men's IssuesTemplate:WikiProject Men's IssuesMen's Issues
HighThis article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconSexology and sexuality Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Sexology and sexuality, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of human sexuality on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Sexology and sexualityWikipedia:WikiProject Sexology and sexualityTemplate:WikiProject Sexology and sexualitySexology and sexuality
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconMedicine Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Medicine, which recommends that medicine-related articles follow the Manual of Style for medicine-related articles and that biomedical information in any article use high-quality medical sources. Please visit the project page for details or ask questions at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Medicine.MedicineWikipedia:WikiProject MedicineTemplate:WikiProject Medicinemedicine
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconBody Modification (defunct)
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Body Modification, a project which is currently considered to be defunct.Body ModificationWikipedia:WikiProject Body ModificationTemplate:WikiProject Body ModificationBody Modification
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconHuman rights Low‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Human rights, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Human rights on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Human rightsWikipedia:WikiProject Human rightsTemplate:WikiProject Human rightsHuman rights
LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconReligion Top‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Misplaced Pages's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.ReligionWikipedia:WikiProject ReligionTemplate:WikiProject ReligionReligion
TopThis article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
Media mentionThis article has been mentioned by a media organization:
Ideal sources for Misplaced Pages's health content are defined in the guideline Misplaced Pages:Identifying reliable sources (medicine) and are typically review articles. Here are links to possibly useful sources of information about Circumcision.
? view · edit Frequently asked questions
Page name

Editors sometimes propose that the page should be renamed to male circumcision, male genital mutilation, or male genital cutting. Consensus has rejected these proposals, because they are used in only a small minority of reliable sources. Most reliable sources refer to circumcision as "circumcision"; thus, in accordance with WP:TITLE, Misplaced Pages does the same.

Archiving icon
Archives
Index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20
21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30
31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40
41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50
51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60
61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70
71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80
81, 82, 83, 84, 85
Archive guide
Sample PubMed


This page has archives. Sections older than 10 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 3 sections are present.


Toolbox

This page needs a total overhaul

Not only is there not good info here but much of the claims are totally false. For starters Male circumcision reduces sexual pleasure. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23374102 . Obviously the page is locked and there are clear biased interests at work here so I'm not going to bother to research and debunk all the other nonsense here. I recommend deletion and starting from scratch — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.207.136.200 (talk) 18:57, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Good idea, let's work with a paper that fails WP:MEDRS. Think Misplaced Pages write something based upon this too? http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2897%2911096-0/abstract
While we're busy revising this article with consecutive null edits to address your concerns, you should start a userspace draft on that paper. Seppi333 (Insert  | Maintained) 21:12, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
And while you think circumcision should follow WP:MEDRS, more rational people understand that circumcision is much more related to cultural fashion, religion and tradition. But of course you are in denial. You can't accept that you were circumcised for religious reasons, so you need to make up some medical nonsense to justify it for yourself.84.210.54.80 (talk) 21:46, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
I still have my useless flap of dick skin; I enjoy trolling people who drink too much koolaid - that would be you. Seppi333 (Insert  | Maintained) 22:10, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
Why don't you try to chop it off, if you believe so much in religious traditions?84.210.54.80 (talk) 22:12, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
You can't circumvent MEDRS when you're making a medical claim by arguing about what the page topic is or isn't. The fact is, saying "Male circumcision reduces sexual pleasure" is a medical claim that must be backed up by MEDRS compliant sources. The primary study you cited above is not such a source. By contrast we have MEDRS-compliant sources that say that "The highest-quality studies suggest that medical male circumcision has no adverse effect on sexual function, sensitivity, sexual sensation, or satisfaction." Everymorning talk 22:34, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
Everymorning I am a bit confused. Why is this source good, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23937309 , but this one isn't: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23374102 . . . they are both from ncbi. Popish Plot (talk) 06:01, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
I wasn't the one who made the claim. I think it would be almost impossible to prove anything about how circumcision affects sexuality, because I don't believe in self-reporting. Maybe if you scanned the brains of people in an MRI instrument while they were having sex, you could compare the brains of people with and without foreskin. Maybe if you knew exactly which parts of the brains are more active in sexuality, you could compare the MRI results. I doubt there are any such studies, but if there are I might consider them to be valid proof.84.210.54.80 (talk) 22:41, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

You mean like these? - apparently no one has noticed yet, or they just don't care. You pick. Seppi333 (Insert  | Maintained) 22:42, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Do those studies compare the cut and the uncut male participants ?--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht /Stalk 23:37, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

They're reviews - ones you didn't bother to read. It's probably not possible to generate non-spurious results when comparing across participants as proposed (as opposed to "within" participants, as in the reviewed studies) for rather technical reasons that I don't feel like explaining. Seppi333 (Insert  | Maintained) 01:29, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Do those studies compare the cut and the uncut male participants ?--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht /Stalk 10:16, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

No. Why don't you like the circus? Seppi333 (Insert  | Maintained) 10:23, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Circus  ?-Irrelevant histrionics are plain tedious.--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht /Stalk 11:23, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

"Circumcision does not appear to decrease the sensitivity of the penis" - amazing ! - with 90% of penis owning authors in WP:EN I would have thought that fell under 'common sense' - here a few selected sources that does describe why and how penile sensitivity is reduced due to circumcision :

  • R. Crooks, K. Baur: Our Sexuality. 5. Edition. The Benjamin/Cummings Publishing, Redwood City 1993, p. 129.
  • J. R. Taylor, A. Lockwood, A. Taylor: The prepuce: specialized mucosa of the penis and its loss to circumcision. In: British journal of urology. Februar 1996, p. 77(2), p. 291–295
  • M. L. Sorrells, J. L. Snyder, M. D. Reiss, C. Eden, M. F. Milos, N. Wilcox, Van Howe RS: Fine-touch pressure thresholds in the adult penis. In: BJU Int. Vol. 99 Issue 4, April 2007, PMID 17378847, p. 864–869
  • Why Masters & Johnson’s 1966 Circumcision Study is Flawed (1998)
  • DaiSik Kim, Myung-Geol Pang: The effect of male circumcision on sexuality. In: BJU international. Volume 99, Issue 3, March 2007, S. 619–622. doi:10.1111/j.1464-410X.2006.06646.x, PMID 17155977
  • E. O. Laumann, C. M. Masi, E. W. Zuckerman: Circumcision in the United States. Prevalence, prophylactic effects, and sexual practice. In: JAMA. 277(13), (1997)
  • K. S. Fink, C. C. Carson, R. F. DeVellis: Adult Circumcision Outcomes Study: Effect on Erectile Function, Penile Sensitivity, Sexual Activity and Satisfaction.

ChristopheT (talk) 15:17, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Best not to "select" sources, but just to reflect the highest-quality ones (as this article does). Alexbrn 15:59, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
What makes Crooks & Baur less reliable than let's say Sadeghi-Nejad ? ChristopheT (talk) 17:13, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
It's 22 years old for a start. Alexbrn 17:17, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
And circumcised penises have become more sensitive in the last twenty two years too. For a finish. --— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht /Stalk 18:21, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
I see too old fair enough - what about the British Journal of Urology study from 2013 "Male circumcision decreases penile sensitivity as measured in a large cohort"? ChristopheT (talk) 23:32, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
now skin sensitivity is fairly easy to assess in threshold test like this one : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17378847 - I don't see any skin threshold test that contradicts those findings. So if we set aside the sexual pleasure thing for now (which is indeed much harder to quantify) can we move on the sensitivity part? ChristopheT (talk) 23:55, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
Of course this loss of sensitivity of cut penises missing their penis tips should be mentioned per the WP policy on primary sources as outlined above, and in the way that any other similar WP article, such as the one on Female Circumcision is permitted to do. But for some odd reason -not here ! not now ! don't ask don't tell --— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht /Stalk 00:09, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

@ChristophThomas: PMID 17378847 is eight-year-old primary research. Why on earth would we use that when there are recent secondary sources? Plese see WP:MEDRS. Alexbrn 05:36, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

@Alexbrn: do you find a more recent penile skin threshold tests? ChristopheT (talk) 07:14, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
@Alexbrn: is it really so hard to move the talk about one very specific question to the specific section below ?ChristopheT (talk) 07:28, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
The study in question has been considered (with others) in secondary sources, e.g. PMID 23749001 which states: "the majority of studies, including high-quality ones ... and ones with data arising from randomized controlled trials (RCTs) ... show no difference or improvement in sexual function, sensitivity and satisfaction after circumcision." We use secondary sources here to reflect accepted knowledge. Alexbrn 07:32, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
is that really accepted knowledge then, if the source says "the majority of studies say . . . " imoplying not all. And right now the article says "it appears that circumcision doesn't effect satisfaction". That language seems a bit odd to me. It appears? Just not sure what that means. Popish Plot (talk) 06:08, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
I don't understand what Alexbrn means. He says the prior study has been included in the conclusion of the secondary source, but does a loss of sensitivity in the penis necessarily mean less sexual satisfaction? That is not necessarily clear. People might get orgasms in dreams without any penile stimulation at all, so it might be that people can experience equally high orgasm satisfaction with less penile sensitivity. Penile sensitivity and sexual satisfaction are two quite different things, although they might be related to each other. And if the secondary source claims there is no difference in penile sensitivity, then it must be referencing to some primary source with an opposite conclusion. If there are no primary sources claiming that penile sensitivity is equal for people with foreskin and circumcised men, then the conclusion about no loss of penile sensitivity in the secondary source is a big fat lie. 84.210.54.80 (talk) 19:44, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Kids, kids, kids please try to stay on top of this pyramid. Sincerely, --Namlong618 (talk) 21:36, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

No dispute has ever been resolved by name-calling or making up words like code name -> codename.

penile skin sensitivity & circumcision

moving the skin sensitivity part here to separate it from the sexual pleasure part --ChristopheT (talk) 00:16, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

now skin sensitivity is fairly easy to assess in threshold test like this one : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17378847 - I don't see any skin threshold test that contradicts those findings. So if we set aside the sexual pleasure thing for now (which is indeed much harder to quantify) can we move on the sensitivity part? ChristopheT (talk) 23:55, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Of course this loss of sensitivity of cut penises missing their penis tips should be mentioned per the WP policy on primary sources as outlined above, and in the way that any other similar WP article, such as the one on Female Circumcision is permitted to do. But for some odd reason -not here ! not now ! don't ask don't tell --— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 00:09, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
Tumadoireacht ever POV-pushing against the knowledge found in good sources. Time to get this this disruptive WP:ADVOCACY dealt with. Alexbrn 07:34, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
Try to address the cogent point raised by Christoph please Alex, and desist from personal attacks and from ascribing bad faith. Your doing so is not in accord with the purpose of this page and is disruptive of its purpose which is improving the article. The primary study cited by Christoph clearly concludes

The glans of the circumcised penis is less sensitive to fine touch than the glans of the uncircumcised penis.

and

The transitional region from the external to the internal prepuce is the most sensitive region of the uncircumcised penis and more sensitive than the most sensitive region of the circumcised penis.

and

Circumcision ablates the most sensitive parts of the penis.

( "ablates" means that circumcision " removes or destroys the function of (a body organ or tissue) --per dictionary.

The secondary study which you then cite Alex makes no mention of the sensitivity question -its conclusions are concerned solely with sexual functions. Is it possible that you failed to notice this this ?--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht /Stalk 09:38, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

So blinded by bias, incapable of reading or comprehending the very text I quoted. Or just trolling. Alexbrn 10:02, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
Once again Alex I must politely ask you to try harder to stick to content and its consideration, and to refrain from attack and aspersions. If you choose to continue with such you will be in contravention of WP policy and subject to consideration for restricted editing, or an outright ban.--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht /Stalk 12:20, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
Once again, from PMID 23749001 — what part of "show no difference or improvement in sexual function, sensitivity and satisfaction after circumcision" (my bold) don't you understand? Your assertion that this source "makes no mention of the sensitivity question" is flat out false. Alexbrn 12:34, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
No - your quotation is not in the abstract reference which you are providing - which lists 7 male sexual functions pre and post the cutting off of the foreskin with the following caution "

"these results should be evaluated in light of the low quality of the existing evidence and the significant heterogeneity across the various studies. Well-designed and prospective studies are required for a further understanding of this topic."

The line you reference above is not there. Nor is there any other mention of the sensitivity question at all at all. Perhaps you are confusing it with a different study altogether Alex. Dunning–Kruger ? --— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht /Stalk 13:09, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Well, you're either incompetent or trolling, either way, time to WP:SHUN. Alexbrn 14:14, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
Alexbrn did you post the wrong link by mistake? It's true that your quote is not there. Popish Plot (talk) 06:11, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
Please, please -enough with the compliments. As I said already the abstract which you yourself referenced makes no mention of penile sensitivity. The full article ( available here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3881635/ ) does mention sexual function, sensitivity, and satisfaction but makes no mention of fine touch sensitivities of the cut and the non-cut penis as so clearly studied with such clear vivid results that it produced the three conclusion which I bolded above.

In its main text body the article which you cited speculates the following with no reference sources

"Theoretically, partial or total surgical removal of the prepuce leaves the somatic penis sensory fibres exposed to direct stimulation and in theory could benefit sexual function."

It is such an odd aside in the middle of a supposed objective systematic meta-analysis high quality secondary source.

On the shunning front- if you wish me or others to ignore your comments then please simply just say so --— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht /Stalk 18:28, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

I really don't understand this form of science. If you just managed to get a secondary source published in a well respected scientific journal, and your secondary source happens to be the latest one published in a well respected scientific journal, then the conclusions in this secondary source is regarded as scientific fact on wikipedia? I see much more room for subjectivity in secondary sources than in primary sources, as it might be somewhat unclear if they have put equal weight on all their primary sources. A biased scientist might be paying much more attention to primary sources supporting his/her own views, just like with documentaries where often all opposing views are completely ignored. Ideally,[REDACTED] should be much more like a secondary source itself, where all primary sources are taken into consideration. 84.210.54.80 (talk) 19:56, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
I think these are all good facts to add to the article. I see right now in the third paragraph it says "Bleeding, infection and the removal of either too much or too little foreskin are the most common complications cited. Complication rates are greater when the procedure is performed by an inexperienced operator, in unsterile conditions, or when the child is at an older age. Circumcision does not appear to have a negative impact on sexual function." Now in the sources you mention it does show how circumcisions are dangerous it doesn't say "circumcisions cause HIV" so that is what I was worried you wanted to add. It's a fact that circumcisions can have risks especially when proper precautions are not used. Popish Plot (talk) 16:55, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
^sorry, I meant for the above reply to go under the "not improvement" discussion below. Popish Plot (talk) 16:56, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Not improvements

The edits by User:Cirflow do not appear to be improvements. This one adds "with the majority endorsing the former" which is not supported by a high quality ref.

This was to the point "Evidence supports that male circumcision reduces the risk of HIV infection among heterosexual men in sub-Saharan Africa". This is not an improvement "Studies done in Africa have shown that there is evidence male circumcision reduces the risk of HIV infection among heterosexual men in sub-Saharan Africa." Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 14:25, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps we need to qualify that to

"medical male circumcision reduces the risk of HIV infection among heterosexual men in sub-Saharan Africa." As referenced above the evidence points to another form of circumcision greatly increasing HIV in the same area.--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht /Stalk 14:40, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Not convinced that is needed. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 14:45, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Let me attempt to convince you and others DocJames.

I notice that your rejection of the idea took less than five minutes. Did this give you sufficient time to find and read the two Guardian newspaper articles including the findings of the South Africa’s Commission for the Promotion and Protection of the Rights of Cultural, Religious and Linguistic Communities ?

I offer the references here again just in case in those few minutes you had not time to form an informed opinion

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/25/male-circumcision-ceremonies-death-deformity-africa

http://www.health-e.org.za/2014/06/25/half-million-initiates-maimed-knife/

The South African Human Rights Commission here calls it "endemic carnage"

http://www.sahrc.org.za/home/index.php?ipkArticleID=282

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jan/17/circumcision-zulu-south-africa-hiv

The 456,000 boys hospitalized from circumcision complications and the 419 deaths at circumcision are particularly noteworthy as is the 110 pound sterling reward per head( no pun intended) paid to those who turn in those who have escaped cutting so far.

It is difficult to see how we can devote such a large chunk of this article to possible positive effects of HIV in SS Africa and at the same time simply ignore the ongoing horror of the deaths, injuries and human rights violations by circumcision in the same territory.

The articles are long recent decent secondary sources with strong internal references which do not just discuss the damage by this type of circumcision but examine the merits and demerits of WHO and other medical circumcision promotion too. Perhaps there is there so much new pertinent information entirely missing from the WP article that it requires a big rejigging of the article and not the mere qualification adjective addition as I originally proposed. --— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht /Stalk 15:25, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

The difference is that if you were to write a review piece for the Guardian and source your bias, it would probably be published; if you did the same with a pubmed-indexed medical journal, the editors would probably laugh at you. Seppi333 (Insert  | Maintained) 16:14, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
You are missing the point - this half million of death and injuries and HIV infections is part of the non-medical circumcision phenomenon . So by a brilliant process of deduction we really do not need to consider the sense of humour of pubmed-indexed medical journal editors in deciding how to include this important information.--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht /Stalk 16:35, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your advocacy tuma, and I agree with you. This page does sound overly medical in nature, id say its 70% medical and 30% ethical,political,cultural etc, when its more the reverse. I understand there are other pages for those nonmedical areas in this overall topic, but I feel they are under reperesented on this page and considering that this is the main page for the overall topic of circumcision, that shows something is being omitted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cirflow (talkcontribs) 21:17, 15 February 2015 (UTC) And as for my adjustment of the first sentence in the paragraph on HIV, well I was being more specific, the "evidence" where studies done in Africa on sub Saharan Africans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cirflow (talkcontribs) 21:22, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Evergreen Fir took it upon her/himself to delete the rest of your remarks Cirflow. And to label the removal with an opinion.I did not see any "perceived slights" I agree that this article is most peculiarly unbalanced and has been maintained in that unhealthy state for some time . How do you feel we can best address this problem so as to improve the article ?--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht /Stalk 22:35, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
When they do a circumcision, technically it's a surgical procedure. I do see in the articles third paragraph it talks about how it's very dangerous to do the procedure with unclean instruments, etc, and that is what is causing all of the problems in africa when tribal leaders order it. Popish Plot (talk) 20:48, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
WE had this conversation further up this page PopishPlot. You made the same reductionist dirty knife argument. But if Circumcision is CAUSING hiv and hundreds of deaths and thousands of hospitalizations as well as human rights violations when many young men are forcibly circumcised or sold out for for money to the circumcisers then do you not think it more than a question of "please use a clean knife when you go to cut a willie" and do you not think it odd that when we mention the studies that indicate that Circumcision may reduce HIV that we do not qualify this by saying it is medical circumcision alone that may do this but that in the same part of the world many CONTRACT hiv through Circumcision, just as jewish infants have contracted herpes through circumcision in Europe, USA and in Israel. Did you get to read the two Guardian newspaper articles on the subject I referenced above ? --— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht /Stalk 23:26, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
it is an odd old tradition but "if" circumcision "causes" HIV, we'd need a source saying that. But the guardian source doesn't. It is causing infections due to dirty knives . . . this article does say that already.Popish Plot (talk) 06:19, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, but since the economic situation in third world countries is unlikely to change anytime soon, we might expect them to continue to use dirty knives and perform circumcision in an unhealthy way. In an ideal world, where everybody were rich Jews, we might expect most people to be circumcised properly with clean knives. But this isn't the world we are living in, and WHO might not be taking this into consideration when they are advocating for more circumcision in third world countries.84.210.54.80 (talk) 20:21, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
sounds like crystal ballism. And mentioning term "rich jews" shows a certain POV which does us no good. Bottom line is what do the reliable sources say? Do you have more good sources we are missing? Popish Plot (talk) 21:03, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
Isn't it just as much crystal ballism to believe that routinal, proper, clean circumcision can be applied in third-world countries where most people don't have any access to basic health care facilities? And maybe we should try to establish a basic health-care infrastructure in third-world countries before we start advocating for circumcision? But then again, maybe many of the proposed health benefits of circumcision also can be achieved with better abdomen hygiene in third-world countries.84.210.54.80 (talk) 22:18, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
@84.210 - yeah I agree with Popish on "POV which does us no good"


@ Popish Plot--Perhaps i was unclear in saying "causing" thinking that you understood that to be shorthand for "causing the spread of" Now the headline of that article is

Thousands face agony or death after Zulu king's circumcision decree-

Health campaigners say the traditional manhood ritual, which carries HIV risks, should be replaced by operations in hospital and goes on to say

"We see horrific cases of rotting penises, septicaemia and inadvertent castrations," he said. "Others die from dehydration and hypothermia. HIV is spread because the same knife is used on large groups of boys.

We have had a disastrous year, with 80 deaths, including two suicides,

Certainly the risks of circumcision as practised by people such as the Xhosa are substantial and include the danger of developing septicaemia and other infections.

Do you feel Popish plot that these statistics and statements from health workers about the damage done by circumcision including but not limited to HIV has no business being mentioned in the circumcision article ?

The other article headline is

The death and deformity caused by male circumcision in Africa can’t be ignored

and at least 419 boys have died since 2008, and more than 456,000 initiates have been hospitalised with complications.

Deaths commonly occur through dehydration, blood loss, shock-induced heart failure or septicaemia. And there are estimated to be two total penile amputations for every death. Countless numbers of participants are left with permanent scarring or deformity.

. Urologists describe seeing patients whose penises have become so infected and gangrenous they literally drop off.

The WHO report mentioned

http://www.malecircumcision.org/programs/documents/TMC_final_web.pdf

says

male circumcision as a rite of passage into manhood has not been designed for the purpose of HIV prevention, and there are certain aspects of the practice that could undermine the potential benefits of male circumcision for HIV prevention, or even put people at increased risk of contracting HIV.

.......men are more likely to become infected if their circumcision wound is not fully healed.

and

Regarding the effectiveness of traditional circumcision for the prevention of HIV, the fact that it is performed after sexual debut in some tribes compromises the potential benefits.


To conclude : we may be misleading readers when we speak of the HIV preventative power of circumcision if we do not qualify this by saying that this research result applies only to medical circumcisions. We also ought to mention the violence and deaths and coercion around these other forms of circumcision. Otherwise we should rename this article "Medical Circumcision"--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht /Stalk 21:45, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Since none of them are objecting, I think you should just go ahead and change it.84.210.54.80 (talk) 16:26, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
I think these are all good facts to add to the article. I see right now in the third paragraph it says "Bleeding, infection and the removal of either too much or too little foreskin are the most common complications cited. Complication rates are greater when the procedure is performed by an inexperienced operator, in unsterile conditions, or when the child is at an older age. Circumcision does not appear to have a negative impact on sexual function." Now in the sources you mention it does show how circumcisions are dangerous it doesn't say "circumcisions cause HIV" so that is what I was worried you wanted to add. It's a fact that circumcisions can have risks especially when proper precautions are not used Popish Plot (talk) 16:58, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

When secondary sources have unfounded claims.

I am wondering if you are allowed to cite statements from secondary sources, even if the secondary sources don't provide any references for their statements. In particular, I wonder if you are allowed to use the statement about no loss of penile sensitivity from the secondary source, even if it appears like the secondary source you are referencing to doesn't have any reference for this statement itself. You are very strict with references here on wikipedia, so shouldn't you expect the same demand for references in secondary sources?84.210.54.80 (talk) 16:05, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

No. See WP:TRUTH. We report what reliable secondary sources say and give due weight to their contributions on the topic. We don't critique them. We don't create our own conclusions from them. We just report on them. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 22:00, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
Well, how do you determine if a secondary source is reliable? If secondary sources don't have references to primary sources for their statements, then of course they are not reliable. A reliable secondary source must have references to prove all its conclusions (just like you must have references here on wikipedia), otherwise the secondary source is just hogwash. 84.210.54.80 (talk) 23:32, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
Please see WP:RS. It answers those questions and folks on WP:RSN would be willing to answer any other questions you might have. You might be also interested to read WP:BIASED. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 23:58, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Some include

  1. Recent
  2. Pubmed indexed
  3. Journal has a decent impact factor
  4. Reputation for reliability.
  5. Peer reviewed

Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:23, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

And another five sources (that are sorely lacking from the article) are

1/National Newspapers- see debate about disease and death from Circumcision in Africa covered by the Guardian newspaper above)

2/Primary Sources not yet collated in Secondary ones- some useful ones on the proof of loss of fine touch receptors caused by the cutting off of the foreskin and the resultant scarring are mentioned in recent debates.

3/Anti-Circumcision groups ( see WP:BIASED as referenced above by EvergreenFir - most interesting)

4/ Non medical sources examining human rights abuses within the Circumcision culture.

5/ Non medical sources studying the psychological motivation of those who continue to cut male genitals.

The chief factor in the unbalanced current state of the article is the practice of deletion of non medical journal sourced material.

What is particularly pernicious is where an editor, unhappy with the summary or conclusions of a study, combs through the text of an article combing out quotes to support their position on the subject.--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht /Stalk 01:16, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

While we at least agree that "What is particularly pernicious is where an editor, unhappy with the summary or conclusions of a study, combs through the text of an article combing out quotes to support their position on the subject" Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:38, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Well, the sentence “Circumcision does not appear to decrease the sensitivity of the penis, harm sexual function or reduce sexual satisfaction." in the article should definitely be changed to “Circumcision does not appear to harm sexual function or reduce sexual satisfaction." Because the first part of the sentence “ Circumcision does not appear to decrease the sensitivity of the penis”, is outright false, as there apparently are no primary sources (or real research) documenting this statement. As ChristopheT has already said, skin sensitivity is fairly easy to assess in threshold tests, and therefore we should expect the same result from all such experiments. So it is not strange that all primary research (the real experiments performed) get more or less the same results, which is that circumcision actually seems to reduce skin sensitivity. The secondary source you are using which claims that there is no decrease skin sensitivity, is obviously confusing skin sensitivity with sexual function/satisfaction. Skin sensitivity is easy to assess and should not be confused with sexual function/satisfaction which is much harder to assess. 85.19.205.254 (talk) 10:07, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

"Well, the sentence should definitely be changed ..." ← why not ask the publisher to issue an erratum? Good luck with that. BTW, something else I think us editors can agree is bad is, socking. Alexbrn 11:00, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Maybe I will have better luck if I send an email to the editor-in-chief of the journal it was published in. But why do you here on[REDACTED] insist on having a statement which you should know cannot be true, as there doesn't seem to exist any primary sources (real research) validating the statement.85.19.205.236 (talk) 14:43, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Agree with Alex. Either get the journal to change there statement or publish you own review in a high quality journal and we will cite you. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:15, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
And until then you are going to spread information you know is false from wikipedia? Great encyclopedia I must say! Tell me, do you also lie to your patients Doc James? Maybe you should consider adding another criteria to your secondary sources. That they have references to back up their claims.84.210.54.80 (talk) 16:21, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
I see both sides of this argument are getting frustrated and mad. That is a mistake that I fell for as well but then I read[REDACTED] guidelines. Basically wikipedia's rules say even if something is obviously wrong, if a reliable source says it, and no other reliable source contradicts it, it should be in wiki's articles. So this talk of sensitivity, what does the source actually say? This is the source we are using correct? http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jsm.12293/abstract;jsessionid=1EED689F94138B98E5492BF110965D34.f02t04 What does it say to the question: "Does Male Circumcision Affect Sexual Function, Sensitivity, or Satisfaction?—" It says: "The highest-quality studies suggest that medical male circumcision has no adverse effect on sexual function, sensitivity, sexual sensation, or satisfaction. " Now to me this makes no sense. Take off skin and common sense says you have less sensitivty. I myself have no feeling there but guess what, that is my anecdotal experience, not a reliable source!. So I will have to live with this article which I feel is factually wrong, but cannot prove. And I have been looking for other sources on this but have not had luck. Popish Plot (talk) 17:16, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
When I was looking into the sourcing on this question I came across all kinds of stuff: some sources saying it decreased sensitivity, some saying it increased it, other that it made no difference. Luckily we have a high-quality source to synthesize the evidence for us. In lieu of new sources I suggest this topic is now resolved. Alexbrn 17:20, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
Give me a single primary source where they have used a threshold test to determine sensitivity of the penis, and came to the conclusion that there is no loss of skin sensitivity for circumcised people. I don't want any studies about loss of sexual function/satisfaction, because that is something completely different.84.210.54.80 (talk) 17:51, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
But why does it have to be a "threshold test"? Is there a[REDACTED] sources rule that says we should only use threshold tests? If we ran our own threshold test it'd be "original research". We have to wait for some scientist to do it, publish his or her results in peer reviewed journal, THEN also have a reliable secondary source report on it. Maybe such a thing has already happened and I haven't found it, if you have please show us the source!. Popish Plot (talk) 19:16, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
I was actually able to find one study claiming that there is no difference (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2007.00471.x/abstract), but there were only 40 participants in that study, while there were 169 participants in this study, where they found that there is a decrease in sensitivity (http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/sorrells_2007/). All the other articles I found on skin sensitivity also reported reduced skin sensitivity. It is also kinda obvious (take a look at this picture - http://i.imgur.com/J7rhb.jpg)84.210.54.80 (talk) 19:39, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
So now, because says:

All Misplaced Pages articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources. Primary sources should generally not be used for health related content, because the primary biomedical literature is exploratory and not reliable - any given primary source may be contradicted by another, and the Misplaced Pages community relies on the guidance of expert reviews, and statements of major medical and scientific bodies, to provide guidance on any given issue. The rare edits that rely on primary sources should have minimal WP:WEIGHT, should only describe the conclusions of the source, and should describe these findings clearly so the edit can be checked by editors with no specialist knowledge. In the rare cases when they are used, primary sources should not be cited in support of a conclusion that is not clearly made by the authors (see: Misplaced Pages:No original research).

--- Is there a secondary source for this topic? I went to this site: http://www.cochranelibrary.com/ I searched for "Male circumcision penile sensitivity" and not much seems to show up. At least it wasn't that study by Bronselaer GA1, etc. I had this problem with the study that linked autism to circumcision. There was a peer reviewed study but no secondary source. Now who knows what the reason for this is. Maybe legit sources see these studies as rediculous and not worthy of reviewing. Maybe they know circumcision is bad for you and if they reportedo n that they'd be put out of business because the powers that be like to use circumcision to make us work harder and not think about sex as much. Who knows but it's original research to speculate. Popish Plot (talk) 20:16, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
Hello I have a question about reliable sources and the cost effectiveness of circumcision. There is a section of this article dealing with studies that show cost effectiveness. I wanted to check into the reliablility of the sources for it. I could be wrong but it seems they are all primary sources. For example here is one source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3640353/ I checked to see if this site mentions it http://www.cochranelibrary.com/ and the search found nothing. Should I look elsewhere besides cochrane? If there is no secondary source for cost effectiveness should this section exist? Popish Plot (talk) 14:41, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
Yes will replace with a better ref. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:43, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
DocJames I see. So here is the primary source correct? and this is the secondary source  ? It seemed like they were the same website but I guess NCBI has primary sources and then pubmed as a search tool for seconday sources on the same site. That is where I got confused. Popish Plot (talk) 14:09, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
No secondary sources are review articles. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 04:34, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

References

  1. https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:MEDRS
shouldn't we take it out of the article if there are no secondary sources? Popish Plot (talk) 18:49, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
Do you think it doesn't need a secondary source because it's about economic benefits, not medical benefits? It's from a medical study tho. It is odd tho that it says it's economically beneficial but not why or how. Popish Plot (talk) 21:19, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Using the WHO as a main secondary source and giving it a lot of weight

I brought up this topic about a year ago and how I thought it was a bit dubious to be using the WHO as a great authority.

Just recently an journal article has come out which outlines the process behind the WHO going full throttle with its circumcision promotion as a means to combat HIV : abstract

Here is the full article if anyone wants to read it: (Redacted)

My reason for bringing up this point is that the WHO recommendations are the most quoted source in this article. I think if we didn't put so much weight on them then I think this article would be a bit more balanced. Tremello (talk) 09:00, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

I also think this highlights the need for more discussion in this Misplaced Pages article of whether circumcision to prevent HIV in Africa is a good idea or not. I think the idea needs more criticism. Tremello (talk) 09:04, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

If there are high quality sources having this discussion we can comment on them. Do you have any high quality sources that do this? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:27, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
Do you know if there is a WHO secondary source saying circumcision is economically beneficial? Popish Plot (talk) 18:53, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
Selling Circumcision-Harvested foreskins is certainly profitable -- here is Scientific American on the subject --

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-cut-above-the-rest-wrin/

But for reasons best known to themselves, a small but well coordinated group of editors and admins are determined that this aspect of the Circumcision Trade be never mentioned here.(along with forced circumcisions, tribal circumcisions that cause death HIV spread in Africa, and ultra-orthodox Jewish circumcisions that spread herpes and death to infants in New York, Israel and elsewhere.) Jewish philosophers such as Philo ( Circumcision -" the excision of all superfluous and excessive pleasure"and Maimonides("the main purpose of the act is to repress sexual pleasure,) do not get a look-in neither. Oh Well. At this stage the unbalance of the article is so marked that it is risible.--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht /Stalk 23:39, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Categories:
Talk:Circumcision: Difference between revisions Add topic