Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 18:14, 26 April 2015

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Use the closure requests noticeboard to ask an uninvolved editor to assess, summarize, and formally close a Misplaced Pages discussion. Do so when consensus appears unclear, it is a contentious issue, or where there are wiki-wide implications (e.g. any change to our policies or guidelines).

Do not list discussions where consensus is clear. If you feel the need to close them, do it yourself.

Move on – do not wait for someone to state the obvious. In some cases, it is appropriate to close a discussion with a clear outcome early to save our time.

Do not post here to rush the closure. Also, only do so when the discussion has stabilised.

On the other hand, if the discussion has much activity and the outcome isn't very obvious, you should let it play out by itself. We want issues to be discussed well. Do not continue the discussion here.

There is no fixed length for a formal request for comment (RfC). Typically 7 days is a minimum, and after 30 days the discussion is ripe for closure. The best way to tell is when there is little or no activity in the discussion, or further activity is unlikely to change its result.

When the discussion is ready to be closed and the outcome is not obvious, you can submit a brief and neutrally worded request for closure.

Include a link to the discussion itself and the {{Initiated}} template at the beginning of the request. A helper script can make listing easier. Move discussions go in the 'other types' section.

Any uninvolved editor may close most discussions, so long as they are prepared to discuss and justify their closing rationale.

Closing discussions carries responsibility, doubly so if the area is contentious. You should be familiar with all policies and guidelines that could apply to the given discussion (consult your draft closure at the discussions for discussion page if unsure). Be prepared to fully answer questions about the closure or the underlying policies, and to provide advice about where to discuss any remaining concerns that editors may have.

Non-admins can close most discussions. Admins may not overturn your non-admin closures just because you are not an admin, and this is not normally in itself a problem at reviews. Still, there are caveats. You may not close discussions as an unregistered user, or where implementing the closure would need tools or edit permissions you do not have access to. Articles for deletion and move discussion processes have more rules for non-admins to follow.

If you want to formally challenge and appeal the closure, do not start the discussion here. Instead follow advice at WP:CLOSECHALLENGE.

Other areas tracking old discussions

• Misplaced Pages:Requested moves#Elapsed listings
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Old
• Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion
• Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Awaiting closure
• Misplaced Pages:Templates for discussion#Old discussions
• Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion#Old business
• Misplaced Pages:Proposed mergers/Log
• Misplaced Pages:Proposed article splits

Administrative discussions

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive367#Close challenge for Talk:1948 Arab–Israeli War#RFC for Jewish exodus

(Initiated 39 days ago on 13 December 2024) challenge of close at AN was archived nableezy - 05:22, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Place new administrative discussions above this line using a level 3 heading

Requests for comment

Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/In the news criteria amendments

(Initiated 106 days ago on 7 October 2024) Tough one, died down, will expire tomorrow. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:58, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 459#RFC_Jerusalem_Post

(Initiated 85 days ago on 28 October 2024) Participation/discussion has mostly stopped & is unlikely to pick back up again. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

 Note: This is a contentious topic and subject to general sanctions. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Archived. P.I. Ellsworth , ed.  22:26, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

would like to see what close is. seems like it was option 1 in general, possibly 1/2 for IP area. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 05:38, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Genocide#RfC: History section, adding native American and Australian genocides as examples

(Initiated 76 days ago on 6 November 2024) RfC expired on 6 December 2024 . No new comments in over a week. Bogazicili (talk) 15:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Australia#RFC: Should the article state that Indigenous Australians were victims of genocide?

(Initiated 75 days ago on 8 November 2024), RFC expired weeks ago. GoodDay (talk) 21:33, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Catholic Church#RfC: Establishing an independent Catholicism article

(Initiated 26 days ago on 26 December 2024) Requesting closure from uninvolved impartial third party to close a discussion that has not seen a novel argument for a bit. ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Place new discussions concerning RfCs above this line using a level 3 heading

Deletion discussions

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2025 January 18#Category:Belarusian saints

(Initiated 33 days ago on 20 December 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 23:10, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2025 January 6#Category:Misplaced Pages oversighters

(Initiated 32 days ago on 20 December 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 05:38, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2025 January 6#Redundant WPANIMATION categories

(Initiated 15 days ago on 6 January 2025) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 05:35, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2025 January 13#Redundant WP:COMICS categories

(Initiated 9 days ago on 13 January 2025) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 08:14, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

 Closed by editor Timrollpickering. P.I. Ellsworth , ed.  14:01, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2025 January 9#Category:Molossia Wikipedians

(Initiated 13 days ago on 9 January 2025) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 22:47, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2025 January 10#WP:DISNEY categories

(Initiated 12 days ago on 10 January 2025) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 22:47, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Place new discussions concerning XfDs above this line using a level 3 heading

Other types of closing requests

Talk:Free and open-source software#Proposed merge of Open-source software and Free software into Free and open-source software

(Initiated 249 days ago on 17 May 2024) Would an uninvolved experienced editor please assess the consensus at Talk:Free and open-source software § Proposed merge of Open-source software and Free software into Free and open-source software? Thank you. — Newslinger talk 01:53, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Arab migrations to the Levant#Merger Proposal

(Initiated 119 days ago on 25 September 2024) Open for a while, requesting uninvolved closure. Andre🚐 22:15, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Winter fuel payment abolition backlash#Merge proposal

(Initiated 85 days ago on 29 October 2024) There are voices on both sides (ie it is not uncontroversial) so a non-involved editor is needed to evaluate consensus and close this. Thanks. PamD 09:55, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:You Like It Darker#Proposed merge of Finn (short story) into You Like It Darker

(Initiated 25 days ago on 27 December 2024) Proposed merge discussion originally opened on 30 May 2024, closed on 27 October 2024, and reopened on 27 December 2024 following the closure being overturned at AN. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:22, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Selected Ambient Works Volume II#Proposed merge of Stone in Focus into Selected Ambient Works Volume II

(Initiated 15 days ago on 6 January 2025) Seeking uninvolved closure; proposal is blocking GA closure czar 11:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Donald Trump#Proposal to supersede consensus #50

(Initiated 11 days ago on 10 January 2025) Seeking uninvolved closure; its degenerated into silly sniping and has clearly run its course. Slatersteven (talk) 16:46, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Yup, the discussion does need to be closed. GoodDay (talk) 18:30, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Xiaohongshu#Requested move 14 January 2025

(Initiated 7 days ago on 14 January 2025) Seeking uninvolved closure; its been more than 7 days and there appears to be a consensus. There haven't been new opinions for almost three days now. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 22:08, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Place new discussions concerning other types of closing requests above this line using a level 3 heading

Should requests for closure continue to be transcluded on this board?

With 63 threads of its own at the time of this writing, transcluding Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure onto this board makes it unduly long and cumbersome. Wouldn't it make sense to dispense with the transclusion?
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 15:18, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

It also gets them done, albeit slowly - which is hardly a surprise since they would not be on the list if they were easy. As an admin, I like having the transclusion. It reminds me to go and pick a few off every now and then. Guy (Help!) 16:00, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

I read the board backwards, from the bottom up, so when I hit the closure section I just stop reading and go to my next task. BMK (talk) 16:36, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Keep them transcluded per the first bullet point at the top - "Issues appropriate for this page could include: General announcements, discussion of administration methods, ban proposals, block reviews, and backlog notices." (my bolding). Otherwise the RfC backlog will be logged here as a normal incident that will then disappear off this page in a couple of days with no action. Maybe if a few admins actually did something about the backlog, it wouldn't have a massive transclusion... Lugnuts 16:50, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

• I believe the problem is, was, and probably will continue to be that stuff gets listed there that does not need a formal close by an uninvolved admin. The difficulty is establishing some sort of uniform standard for what should and should not require a formal close. Not sure what to do about that. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:38, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
  • I notice you've repeatedly asserted that funny belief at this noticeboard over time, but in all reality, it does not improve anything at all and often doesn't gel with reality. Even using your excuse, it takes a few short seconds (or minutes) to specify those items which don't actually need to be closed - I've certainly done that, but it hasn't changed the inordinate delay for the discussions required to be closed by an administrator to actually be closed by an admin. The actual problem which brought the listings here in the first place is that an inadequate number of duly elected administrators properly participate in this task (which is perhaps ironic given the number of promises made during RfAs promising to clear backlogs). It was hoped that more eyes would improve that situation by transcluding the discussion here, and I can say it certainly has improved since the listings were brought here, though not nearly as much as was probably hoped at the time. Of course the other reality is that many of these closures take a significant amount of time to do properly and are sometimes too complex or difficult for the administrators who are less experienced at this type of thing. That said, it is also very convenient to blame everyone else except the numerous users who voluntarily sought tools but at the same time will not do what it is they were elected to do. Ncmvocalist (talk) 18:19, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Some doesn't, some does, but like it or not, we have the mop and the community kind of expects us to do this shit. If you don't want to, then fine, but I think it's a basic courtesy that when people launch RfCs and such they should be able to expect that the time spend discussing the issues will result in some form of closure. Yes, in many cases it doesn't need an actual admin, but it seems to make people more inclined to draw a line under things if it is. Guy (Help!) 22:25, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
    • But sometimes the discussion reaches a natural conclusion, and a formal close is just that, a complete formality and totally unnecessary. Unfortunately, the difference doesn't seem to be recognized by Cunard, who is basically the editor compiling the list, and thus it grows like Topsy, with the discussions that really do need to be closed mixed in with the petty ones that have run out of steam, with everyone basically disinterested, or actually in rough agreement. BMK (talk) 00:29, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
      • And contributing is the fact that when admins like me remove items that don't need to be admin-closed, Cunard and others restore them, even undoing an edit that says "this won't be done by an admin, so stop wasting our time". When you're asking for admin action, and a passing uninvolved admin says "no action is necessary", don't go and revert him: you've gotten your admin response. Either it's a suitable response, in which case you need to drop it, or it really needs action, in which case you should make a bigger request (e.g. laying out reasons why a closure is necessary), not simply putting it back and making it look like nobody's touched it yet. Nyttend (talk) 02:51, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
        • Despite the fact the second editor who reverted your edit is currently blocked for sockpuppetry, I agree with what you've said generally. However, I think the objection with your edit was not that it won't be done by an admin; instead, the objection was that it was deleting the request which should be archived. I'm sure we had some brief discussion (though I can't remember what came of it) in relation to whether requests should be archived or simply deleted. I'm not spectacularly fussed what happens with those types of requests but think if archiving is taking place, then bot-automated archiving should be done more promptly. It would mean the backlog wouldn't appear so lengthy and we'd be able to more easily ascertain what proportion of requests listed by any given editor were actually unnecessary without having to look through the page's history. While I know there will always be some dispute regarding whether archiving is necessary, perhaps it would be helpful if we could all agree to increase the frequency of archiving by the bot in the interim? Ncmvocalist (talk) 07:01, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
          • If your objection is simply that I didn't allow the bot to archive the requests, why would you just revert me? Wouldn't you instead spend a while adding a bunch of little "no" templates to all of the ones I removed? (Hmm, takes a while, especially since nobody will ever check the archive...Wonder why I remove resolved items?) Nyttend (talk) 11:13, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
            • Well in the meantime, I've just manually archived about 10 discussions which were closed 2 days ago; 24 hours of display is more than enough yet the bot didn't archive them. I still think an increased frequency for the bot to archive would help because now there are just about 26 requests (22 rfcs). Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:18, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

I don't usually look at the ANRFC section when I visit this page, because I'm not that interested in closing other people's threads. But as a non-admin am I even allowed? If the answer is no, could this be made a bit more clear than it already is? There was a certain recent occurrence where one non-admin posting a large number of ANRFCs requesting "experienced editors" "close" them, without actually going through the discussions themselves and seeing if they needed to be closed, and another non-admin came along and "closed" the already finished and un-templated RFC as a result, providing a dubious interpretation of the "consensus" and leading to a minor fustercluck. The problem on that particular discussion is already resolved, but User:JzG above says "we have the mop and the community kind of expects us to do this shit". I have my doubts as to whether someone who actually held the mop in question would close an weeks-ago un-templated RFC with a dubious consensus claim, but is it safe to interpret JzG's comment and the fact that ANRFC is on the administrators' noticeboard to mean that admins are generally supposed to be the ones who perform these closes? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:53, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

There are plenty of non-admins who busy themselves with NAC on this board. Usually when an admin's accountability is under question. Lugnuts 16:45, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Anyone can close RfCs as long as they are uninvolved. Contentious ones may be best left to admins because drama. Guy (Help!) 17:03, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

As evident here Guy, truer words have seldom been spoken. AlbinoFerret 16:38, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

• Yes they should remain here. While some may not need formal closure, it is very frustrating when no one seems to find those that do. AN is a good place for them to go as there is a high degree of visibility. Finally (and off-topic), I'd suggest pointing anyone looking for the mop to consider closing a number of these. It's a non-admin task that tells you a lot about how good of an admin they'll be. Hobit (talk) 13:24, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

  I heartily second everything Hobit just said directly above : ) - jc37 16:23, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Proposal to use {{fakeheader}}s

I propose that we continue using ANRFC as we currently do, but that all requests be placed under {{fakeheader}}s, which would significantly reduce clutter in the TOC while maintaining the same level of usability. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 16:15, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 16:15, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - This is a noticeboard. Notices on a noticeboard aren't "clutter", they're notices. Just because you may not care for them, doesn't make them any less valid than any other notice here requesting admin attention. - jc37 16:23, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

I happen to care for them. I'm not proposing that we remove anything! ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 19:35, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

• It's an idea but would it not be easier to just use {{toclimit|3}} or similar? Most of the space is taken up by items in need of closing. tutterMouse (talk) 10:08, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

• I'd be wary of doing this because sometimes active AN threads make use of "deeper" threading levels... ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 13:05, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

• True but I think it's a compromise that works as well as your proposal, breaks in long conversations do matter after all. I have a question, does {{fake heading}} have an ability to be used as section anchors as a regular header would? It's also a bit disappointing as they're coded specifically to fit in with Vector which is great if you're using Vector, looks out of place otherwise. tutterMouse (talk) 07:24, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support as an excellent compromise. Being able to use the links in the TOC without having to scroll way down to get to the first thread on this board would be a big help. Efficacy and ergonomics were my main concern and Salvidrim!'s proposal addresses that quite well.
   — Berean Hunter (talk) 20:33, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

• If it's possible to make sure the TOC at the subpage still shows the full list (so that there's a place to see a summary of the requests for closure for my own workflow), I wouldn't have a problem with this. Sunrise (talk) 22:09, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

  That's not what they are proposing. What they seem to be proposing is to remove the individual entries from the TOC, because apparently they can't be bothered to even look at the backlog, Much less allow it to show rather than be "hidden".

  The idea guys is that this allows those who might not notice the backlog to jump in and close some of these individual discussions, since discussions are closed one at a time, individually.

  And you can't say you're "confused" over whether the discussion listings are part of the transclusion, because I made sure they are under a subheader.

  And I apologise for my annoyance over this, but really, you're all coming across to me like the snobs who don't want "those people" playing in "their" sandbox. Well, the point here is that Misplaced Pages is built on a consensus model. I'm sorry that posting notices to a noticeboard bothers you all so. But this is the administrator's noticeboard. There simply is no better place to post a request for closure. And having discussions closed is actually just a bit more important than your TOC proclivities. - jc37 02:04, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

• i wanted to list a discussion at ANI for admin closure for Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Doors22_-_a_longtime.2C_POV-pushing_editor but there is no spot for ANI in the section above, just deletion, RFC, and moves... what to do? Jytdog (talk) 16:01, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

• I guess in future you'd goto WP:AN/RFC, it's where they're transcluded from. tutterMouse (talk) 13:54, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

it is not an RFC... but OK. I will just do that. Jytdog (talk) 14:49, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

• It's not but it is a different sort of RFC, one for closure requests ("requests for closure" over "requests for comment"). Just the sort of problem with having the same acronym for two different things. tutterMouse (talk) 10:23, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Idiocracy

Someone please explain to me how is this considered vandalism. The edit has been repeatedly reverted by a user and an anti-vandal bot. 2001:7E8:C624:B001:230:48FF:FED7:4CD7 (talk) 13:55, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

If a valid edit is reverted by an anti-vandal bot, the message from the anti-vandal bot includes instructions on how to report false positives. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:32, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

I won't address the issue with the registered editor reverting the IP edit except to note, as another poster did, that the IP edit didn't include an edit summary. In my opinion, this thread wasn't worth opening here. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:41, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

For your sake, I hope you are not suggesting that any edit without an edit summary is vandalism. 2001:7E8:C624:B001:230:48FF:FED7:4CD7 (talk) 13:46, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

• (Non-administrator comment) Pinging involved editor @Andyjsmith:. You changed a long-standing three-column reflist to a 30em-per-column reflist. According to WP:BRD (Bold-revert-discuss), you boldly changed the columning, presumably the editor did not feel it proper to break that long-standing status quo and reverted it, and it is time for you to discuss (at the article talk Talk:SpaceX or directly to the editor at User talk:Andyjsmith) if you still feel strongly that this change is legitimate. Please note that you have technically went over the WP:3RR limit (3 reverts on one page within 24 hours), and you can be blocked for that. 野狼院ひさし u/t/c 15:02, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

I haven't broken 3RR, and I have yet to see an explanation how my edit constitutes vandalism. I also don't agree that this minor change, which improves reflist on smaller displays, requires a discussion. 2001:7E8:C624:B001:230:48FF:FED7:4CD7 (talk) 15:50, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

A helpful tip is to include edit summaries to your edits explaining your rationales, so that others can know what you are doing and don't jump to conclusions of vandalism. PS. Please don't edit-war with MarnetteD at Imprint Entertainment over a single empty line break. While the columning parameter change was legitimate as per below, this one literally has no visible effect and such repeated reverting can be seen as unconstructive. 野狼院ひさし u/t/c 04:35, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Not to worry - if I happen to need your advice, I will ask for it on your personal talkpage, not on this noticeboard. 2001:7E8:C624:B001:230:48FF:FED7:4CD7 (talk) 05:39, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Replying with hostility to a helpful comment is not helpful. Edits that are made without edit summaries and without talk page discussion are often reverted.

• The edit was clearly rolled back as if it were vandalism. It is clearly not vandalism! It's a barely noticeable minor edit to the ref list that presumably served a legitimate purpose. Andyjsmith is clearly the one in the wrong here. Don't revert good faith edits without any explanation!! BRD is a helpful dispute resolution method but it's not a damn license to edit war without explanation! Swarm 16:01, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Just for information: specifying a fixed number of columns has been deprecated for some time: see Template:Reflist#Columns for detail. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 16:16, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Well there you go then, case closed. That's good information, thanks. Swarm 16:20, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Still not "vandalism" by our definition though. BMK (talk) 21:15, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Right, not only was it not vandalism but it's the preferred format. Swarm 22:39, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Right! I had it backwards. BMK (talk) 01:13, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

• IP users as always have to fix everything after registerd users and what do we get? called vandals....134.208.33.104 (talk) 15:06, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm glad that there are still some users and a few administrators with common sense, otherwise Misplaced Pages would quickly become obsolete. 2001:7E8:C624:B001:230:48FF:FED7:4CD7 (talk) 13:09, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

"IP users as always have to fix everything..." Riiiight. BMK (talk) 04:04, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

There are IP users who do good work. The reason why I don't register a regular username can already be (indirectly) seen here - sooner or later I would get a bunch of stalkers reverting me and a couple of administrators blocking me at their leisure. 2001:7E8:C624:B001:230:48FF:FED7:4CD7 (talk) 10:47, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

This IP6 editor has been identified as a long-term disruptor at the project pages Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/2001:7e8:c6a0:9401:230:48ff:fed7:4cd7/Archive and Misplaced Pages talk:Long-term abuse/Velenje vandal. He's been edit warring at Jessica Barth, Quantum Leap, Vignette (road tax), Freed from Desire, Salem (TV series), Mercator (retail), Gloria (Umberto Tozzi song) and filing trivial complaints at ANI: Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive880#Trouble_with_User:Binksternet and Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive880#User:Binksternet.27s_long-term_malice. It's highly likely that he is a banned editor hiding under the anonymity of various IPs. This person is not here to improve the encyclopedia. It is within policy to revert all of the edits of a banned or blocked user. Binksternet (talk) 19:25, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

I went to a little fishing with my previous comment, and I caught a big one here - I rest my case. Also, this case has already been solved with Swarm's assistance, so it can now be closed. 2001:7E8:C624:B001:230:48FF:FED7:4CD7 (talk) 20:14, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

2001:7e8:c624:b001:230:48ff:fed7:4cd7, you shouldn't be closing this case. You're involved. Liz 21:38, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

No problem, you can close it for me. 2001:7E8:C624:B001:230:48FF:FED7:4CD7 (talk) 21:57, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

This should not be closed at all. The very title of this section insults the very process we have here, the OP insults the majority of our contributors and almost all of our administrators, flippant attitude and admitted trolling of the OP deserves some administrative attention here. Examining the user's (few) contributions, they are obviously here only to stir up trouble. ScrapIronIV (talk) 14:40, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Please, calm down. Maybe this section will not be closed, but it is going to be archived soon. To clear things up - the person you said I insulted is not an administrator, my attitude is of no concern to anyone but myself, what you call trolling was baiting a reverting stalker at best, and with your last sentence you have even identified yourself as one. Well done. 2001:7E8:C624:B001:230:48FF:FED7:4CD7 (talk) 15:18, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

You were advised to take the dispute to the article talk page. Why did you not take that advice? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 18:50, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Because I'm illiterate. 2001:7E8:C624:B001:230:48FF:FED7:4CD7 (talk) 19:06, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

I don't think that word means what you think it means. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 03:09, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Case in point. 2001:7E8:C624:B001:230:48FF:FED7:4CD7 (talk) 13:08, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

WP:NOTHERE. WP:DENY. Binksternet (talk) 17:22, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

I look forward to the day when you and I can have an objective discussion together about how we can improve Misplaced Pages instead of edit warring, Binksternet. Sadly, that seems as far away from your goals as Andromeda Galaxy is away from the Milky Way. Looking at the two WP links that you have provided here in an attempt to make a point, you are right and wrong. It is true that I, as a person, am of far greater importance than Misplaced Pages or the entire Internet combined, and so are you, Binksternet, even if my personal opinion of you is almost entirely negative. However, I do disagree with your second WP link where you seem to intimate that I'm a vandal, even after the administrator Swarm cleared it up that I'm obviously not. Apparently, you have a history of such actions against any editor who dares to object your inappropriate everyday-actions, even when (yet another) administrator blatantly tells you that you are wrong and orders you to correct your mistakes, which instead you prefer to carry on wherever you see fit (even to this noticeboard). Be well, Binksternet. It has been a pleasure talking to you, and I hope to see you respond again soon. 2001:7E8:C624:B001:230:48FF:FED7:4CD7 (talk) 18:42, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

indef gun control ban for User:Lightbreather

I happened upon this discussion on Talk:Nazi gun control theory, and saw this diff. I investigated further, and found that Lightbreather has a history of disruptively editing articles, as seen by , and a multitude of other 3RR warnings. User:Ched has given Lightbreather a final warning about her incivility, and I think it is time that action be taken. Her uncivil "retirement" message where she talks about the uncivil discussions on gun control. I'd also like to reference her incivility towards Sue Rangell, which resulted in a messy conclusion, to say the least. She has also received a 6 month topic ban in the past.

User:Lightbreather needs to be topic banned permanently, as she has flagrantly disregarded civility, as well as 3rr, and has not learned from the last ArbCom case on gun control. Grognard Extraordinaire Chess (talk) Ping when replying 03:37, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

@Chess: These aren't diffs; you'll need to provide these instead of the page version. I, JethroBT 03:47, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

@JethroBT: How? Grognard Extraordinaire Chess (talk) Ping when replying 03:56, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

@Chess: For instance, with diff 104 instead of using a revision it's requested that you provide a diff. On the revision page, underneath the pink section you'll see: (diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff). Clicking on the first diff link will provide you what you're looking for. Mike V • Talk 04:17, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Chess, some of the links you provide appear to have nothing to do with the subject of your proposed topic ban - could you clarify why you consider them relevant, and/or why you are proposing Lightbreather be banned from that specific subject? AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:29, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

@AndyTheGrump: They reflect that she has received numerous warnings that this behavior is not acceptable, and that she knows it is wrong. Grognard Extraordinaire Chess (talk) Ping when replying 05:06, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, but why are you requesting a topic ban from a specific subject based on evidence that doesn't all relate to that subject? If there is a general behavioural issue that needs dealing with (I'll refrain from expressing an opinion on this for now), a narrow topic ban isn't going to solve it - and if there is a specific problem with 'gun control' topics, we need to look at evidence that relates to it directly. Topic bans are a means to deal with a specific issue, not a means of punishment for broader infractions. AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:29, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Ok, let's see if I can dig the desired diffs out of those links: (the last one seems to be referring to the box of big text at the beginning). That should do it for diffs of warnings, but I agree that it doesn't show her disruptively editing articles; if it shows anything, it's a pattern of general behaviour that may or may not need to be addressed (I haven't enough information to know). Disclaimer: I found out about this from IRC; Chess gave no names so as not to canvass, but the research required to find this discussion was minimal. ekips39❦talk 05:42, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

She got topic banned from gun control topics before, for 6 months. After her ban was over, the problems that led to the ban resurface on the same pages. Grognard Extraordinaire Chess (talk) Ping when replying 05:52, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, but we still need diffs of those problems resurfacing. Also, what constitutes incivility is a lot like the size of a heap of sand, as evidenced by many discussions that centred on that issue and went nowhere fast. This means that warnings aren't enough to show that she's intractably uncivil and needs a formal restriction -- we need diffs of her being uncivil, which is also necessary to show that she's persisted after the warnings. The retirement message link is the closest you've given, and I don't consider that to be uncivil, which highlights the heap of sand issue. ekips39❦talk 05:56, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

It is worth noting that the 3RR warning that Chess linked was posted by a contributor who appears from the edit history of the article concerned to also have been involved. Making it somewhat questionable as evidence... AndyTheGrump (talk) 07:42, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

@AndyTheGrump: it was still a clear violation of 3RR on her part, reverting content that I'm not sure she actually read. "If I were in my own office and had the use of both arms, I might have tried to figure out the appropriate edits you made among the others." Her preferred answers to the four issues at stake are all still the live version of the page because of the 3RR violation. I'm not saying my preferred version should be the live one right now either, but there's not even a compromise version up. Faceless Enemy (talk) 10:36, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

This looks awfully like a case of trying to recruit admins to a cause. I don't see anything actionable in those diffs. Guy (Help!) 09:25, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm definitely not Lightbreather's greatest fan, and I too don't see anything there. This looks to me like trying to remove your "opponents" from a subject. Black Kite (talk) 09:42, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, it looks like someone trying to do exactly the same sort of thing that LB tries to do. This type of comment is not usually helpful but it is not going to be addressed through a topic ban. - Sitush (talk) 09:47, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

• I think we of LB's "Fan Club" are pretty much of one mind on this — there's nothing here beyond the inevitable belly-bumping of activists on two sides of a controversy. Nothing actionable that I can see. @Chess should stop trying to crush opponents but rather should figure out how to find common ground and a path forward. Carrite (talk) 15:47, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

So which comments have I made that insinuated that I am trying to "crush opponents"? Maybe you should actually learn about the dispute in question before throwing wild accusations at me. If you've read the dispute... Grognard Extraordinaire Chess (talk) Ping when replying 21:43, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

@Carrite: Please link to my comments in the gun control dispute where I "crush opponents". I haven't made any comments. Grognard Extraordinaire Chess (talk) Ping when replying 02:56, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Comment - As the other User that was involved in LB's 6 month Topic Ban, its not so much a disruptive influence as it is WP:CIVILPOV pushing and the inflexibility when it comes to exact wording of content and titles as well as source selection and usage in various articles. I will admit my own culpability and involvement upfront. As was noted in the ArbCom, many things that LB added, I challenged and/or reverted, hence our Tban for Edit warring. That said, here are some examples...

• Assault weapons legislation in the United States - When LB created this article, they wanted this article to be titled Assault Weapons Ban and to focus solely on that subject with an emphasis on "ban". When others, myself included, tried to expand the article, LB resisted. This included changing the article's title to the above. It started with an RfC then before that closed a Move Request was initiated followed by a request to the closing Admin to review the Move Request because it didn't work out in LB's favor. All the while, there was a WP:MOVEWAR going on.
• National Rifle Association - This is a frequent recipient of LB's efforts. The article has existed since August of 2002, LB joined WP in March, 2007. So far there are 1,372 distinct Editors to the article, but yet Lightbreather is responsible for over 10 percent of the total edits. I'm not saying that LB has not made worthwhile contributions, but the arguing over how exactly to say it and which sources LB considers acceptable are relentless to put it nicely. The article Talk page pretty clearly demonstrates this currently IMO, but it goes back quite a while.
• Topic & Interaction Ban and short term Block of the Firearms Project Coordinator - I'm not defending the statements that Mike Searson made, but I feel that the situation happened because he was pushed to his limits and just finally went off on LB. So now we have a Project Coordinator that is banned from addressing part of what his project is about. Another Editor and I have come up with a proposed solution for this, but that's off this topic for now.
• Recent ANI - This is one of a number of instances where LB makes a request and when its ignored, rebuffed, or not immediately and completely accepted, LB is upset over it. In this situation there was the mitigating circumstance of an injured arm, but its not the first time that LB has told other Editors to not edit an article because either 1) LB is actively in the middle of editing and does not want to be interrupted, or 2) cannot be around to monitor the editing of others. There are difs that further demonstrate this, but I don't wish to devote a significant chunk of my day to track them down.
• Gun show loophole & Gun Control Act of 1968 - This example is IMO actually one where LB demonstrated restraint in what the article contained and how it was sourced. But what sets this article apart is that LB has nominated it for Good article status. But even the selection of the Main image was not without its fair share of debate. Some of these discussions, then bled over into Gun Control Act of 1968 where admittedly I picked up a WP:STICK I had waived around about 10 months ago regarding one very specific detail in the History section of the article. This time, after discussion on the Talk page I asked for a Third opinion which went against me. Accepting that outcome, I rewrote the section in question using all of the original references and attributing them sentence by sentence. It started out as this and after discussion and the Third opinion, I edited it to this. This included discussion and explanation on the Talk page of how I arrived at the most recent version.

All in all, its been a little easier to work with LB since our TBan, their subsequent Sock block, and such, but not a lot when they seemingly decide how an article and/or section should be and then works to force the issue. I'm leaving to do some work, so I will not be back for several hours. Regards, --Scalhotrod (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 19:27, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

First, the preceding "comment" by Scalhotrod, is from an editor who was topic-banned (along with with me) for edit warring, and yet he removed a sentence containing the word "gun control" from an article while he was topic banned from gun control!

Yep, I basically stated this at the outset of my comments. --Scalhotrod (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 17:32, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

You are publicly acknowledging that you intentionally broke our topic ban? Because you haven't done so before now. Lightbreather (talk) 18:09, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

As for his remarks:

1. Assault weapons ban To properly respond to this, I'd need to write a dissertation on the state of affairs on Misplaced Pages that has kept the average Internet surfer in the dark re the subject of assault weapons ban. In a nutshell, the pro-gun editors on Misplaced Pages - who are in the majority - do not want seekers to find anything except the expired-in-2004 (United States) federal assault weapons ban. Go ahead and google "assault weapons ban." What pops up on top? Federal Assault Weapons Ban! As I said, it expired 11 years ago. There are U.S. states that actually have active AWBs, and there have been numerous bills proposed at the federal and state level to create news AWBs, but the pro-gun editors here - including Scalhotrod - do not want to use the word "ban" (which is the common name for all these... bans and ban proposals) in the title of any article about AWBs - except for the old, expired bill.

• On April 30 of last year, I added the new, comprehensive "Assault weapons ban" article to the "See also" section of Gun politics in the United States. He removed the see-also link three times, (scroll down) (scroll down again) and when he couldn't get his way on that...
• On May 5, he started moving/renaming "Assault weapons ban" (the correct article title per WP:NAMINGCRITERIA) to "Assault weapons legislation."
• Concurrent with this behavior, he went on a crusade to remove the word "ban" from numerous articles. (just a few examples)

--Lightbreather (talk) 17:14, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, but only after you started a "crusade" to add it, sometimes multiple times in a sentence, in the same articles you cite above. They are appalling examples of bad writing, but thank you for pointing to numerous examples of where I corrected horrific sentence structure and vocabulary usage. --Scalhotrod (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 17:32, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

2. National Rifle Association Some people make fewer, big edits, some people make more, small edits. I used to do the former, but somewhere along the line the pro-gun types I worked with asked for the latter. That's the simple explanation for my number of edits. Scalhotrod does not like criticism in the NRA article, even though at least 50 per cent of the mainstream coverage of it is critical or reporting, at least in part, on someone's criticism of it or its leaders. (There is maybe 10 per percent critical info in that article, and most of it buried.) From past comments Scal has made, I believe he may have a COI re the topic. Lightbreather (talk) 17:24, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

I think criticism is perfectly fine, but I agree with Jimbo Wales that it should NOT be a stand alone section and should be intertwined throughout the article in its proper context. The article is about the organization. If you want so badly to highlight criticism of the NRA, then I suggest you write Criticism of the National Rifle Association instead of the redirect that points to the Criticism section. I'm just trying to keep the article on topic, neutral, and the content WP:DUE. As for a COI, I'm a member like you. If that's a COI, then we both have it. --Scalhotrod (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 17:32, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

3. Mike Searson's topic ban and 1-way IBAN - I'll keep this short out of respect for Mike, whom I actually liked sometimes. I didn't initiate that enforcement request, and no-one twisted his arm all these years to talk to me and to others the way he did. Lightbreather (talk) 17:32, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Even the most seasoned Editors and reasonable people can be pushed to their limits. This is in my opinion an example of that. --Scalhotrod (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 17:32, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

4. The recent ANI I would have loved the opportunity to discuss Scalhotrod's behavior, but that ANI was shut down before more than just a few pair of eyeballs got to see it. Scal seems to enjoy messing with editors (me anyway, since he's done it twice now) when he knows they're on vacation or otherwise indisposed - say with a broken arm. (Oddly(?), two other pro-gun editors took advantage of my recent personal-business trip to get busy on some articles that I am a regular contributor to.) Lightbreather (talk) 17:38, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

First off, if you didn't announce so much about your personal and/or private life, no one would know that you are on vacation or sick leave or any other bizarre or inane justification you come up make an accusation like this. Second, your accusation is baseless and unprovable. You know this, but you're just trying to play the sympathy card as classic misdirection. People have figured this out, I'm seemingly just one of a few stupid enough to actually comment about it. --Scalhotrod (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 17:32, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

5. Gun show loophole & Gun Control Act of 1968 I don't see the point of his comments on these except maybe to subtly canvass for help? If I'd written it, that's what I'd be accused of - but no further comment, unless an admin asks me about it. Lightbreather (talk) 17:41, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Actually I was trying to provide an example that shows you can actually cooperate with others when you want to. But I can understand how you missed that. --Scalhotrod (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 17:32, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Oppose - I don't see anything actionable in the diffs provided. GregJackP Boomer! 20:22, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Well, she has since (today) bandied around more insinuations of sockpuppetry and shows no sign of stopping, even though asked to either take it to SPI or desist. If nothing else, it has a chilling effect and seems somewhat hypocritical given the frequency that she has linked to WP:ASPERSIONS in the past. - Sitush (talk) 21:54, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Agree. Hajme 11:15, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

For cripes' sake, I don't make a habit of it. We're talking about Nazi gun control. A subject that went to ArbCom and ended in FOUR editors who were pushing for inclusion of Nazi gun control material in gun-control articles so hard that it crossed into battleground conduct and resulted in their being topic banned. NOW, we've got a "new" editor (who is obviously not new) who made their "first" edit in December, showing up to push the same material again - and having never before contributed to a gun-control article? Nobody else smells a sock? So if you don't like me, fine, but the odds of a "new" editor making his "first" gun-control edits to the Nazi gun control article seems pretty suspicious. But everyone seems to be willing, maybe even eager, for that kind of disruption again? Not me, as I wrote on that talk page earlier today. Lightbreather (talk) 18:09, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

And now has just done this, which removes a website apparently at least in part because it breaches WP:ELREG, which it doesn't seem to do as I've just been able to access the news stories on its front page without registering. I've no opinion regarding linkfarms and adverts as pretty much everything in that section would probably qualify on those grounds but, well, this is not looking good. - Sitush (talk) 22:10, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

I actually got a thank-you from another editor for that edit. Lightbreather (talk) 18:11, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

All that means is there is another contributor out there who doesn't understand ELREG or didn't check the website. - Sitush (talk) 18:14, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

I JethroBT, Mike V: FYI, I have read all of the above. I have in the past tried to respond to every editor who comments about me in these piling-on kinds of discussions, but it wears me out. As two admin whom I respect, I will answer your questions, if you have any. Also, I hope you will read Scalhotrod's comments keeping in mind our past and that we were BOTH topic-banned from gun-control for six months. I don't want to respond in detail to his comments, but there is another side to every story, and, again, if you have questions, I will answer them.

FWIW: I am making a good faith effort to improve the article under dispute, or at least to keep it from going backward. If there is an added urgency to my edits the last couple of days, it is because A) I have a broken arm and have less patience than usual, and B) This is a Nazi-gun-control dispute, which, as you know, caused a helluva lot of problems just one year ago. As for the SPI/SPIs, I have sought advice from Mike, and I'm making up my mind about what to do. Lightbreather (talk) 22:07, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

• STRONG SUPPORT its absolutely amazing that after all her shenanigans lightbreather is still allowed to edit, I find it totally unbelievable. 'less patience than usual' that's an understatement of the year or meybe an overstatement of your usual level of patience - lightbreather you're as completely out of control as always and i cantr believe to still see you editing wow! 134.208.33.104 (talk) 15:14, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

You are currently blocked and this was your first edit. Hajme 11:10, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

• Comment I wasn't going to comment here because I thought LB was improving. I now feel that assessment was wrong. In order to win a minor RSN discussion related to gun issues she reached out to the publishers of a media company and involved them in the RSN discussion, an act that resulted in the change of the corporate disclaimer designed to make the source appear more reliable. That is way over the top. When editors start manipulating outside publishers to win minor arguments at Misplaced Pages something has gone wrong in my opinion. Capitalismojo (talk) 03:14, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
  • That's a heckuva accusation. No link to the RSN in question? Here it is: Walter Hickey / Business Insider. I don't see anyone there accusing me of that - not even you (until today)! Lightbreather (talk) 00:55, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
    • Did you even catch the difference between the URL for the "disclaimer" that you shared and the legit disclaimer? Lightbreather (talk) 00:58, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

• oppose - Granted, LB and I are wikifriends, but rules are rules, and I have no qualms in agreeing on a correct course of action for people that do not respect the process on WP. That being said, the "plaintiff" here has not provided enough information or justification, in my opinion, for this measure of punishment. To be perfectly honest, I think it's no coincidence we have editors here with pitchforks in hand that have had disagreements with LB in the past. Not to mention the likelihood that they, themselves, have been guilty or accused of a 3r, or tendentious editing, at some point, possibly by LB. Darknipples (talk) 21:16, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

I JethroBT or Mike V: Could you close this thing? I'd like to take it off my watch list. Thanks. Lightbreather (talk) 16:58, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Procedurally, I believe that they can't - precisely because you have pinged them, they become involved by default. We don't get to pick and choose admins to close cases against us. I would oppose their actions if either of them came and closed this now; everyone has to wait their turn for an uninvolved admin to do it. ScrapIronIV (talk) 17:27, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support, Lightbreather is difficult to deal with and agenda driven with respect to firearms. WeldNeck (talk) 17:31, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
  • This from the guy who made these edits: Lightbreather (talk) 18:23, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose (uninvolved non admin) I have read through this and see nothing that merits an indef topic ban. What I see is a content dispute, and some problematic actions. But nothing that rises to the level of the requested action. AlbinoFerret 18:31, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
• Procedural Oppose action here on grounds that disruptive editing of a topic subject to discretionary sanctions can be better dealt with at arbitration enforcement. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:21, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

IBAN notice

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• User_talk:The_Rambling_Man#Contravention_of_IBAN

Would someone take a look at this and address it one way or other? Thanks. - jc37 23:48, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

• Comment There's really no point in IBANs if no-one cares about enforcing them. The best outcome here would be for Medeis to apologise and explain that it was a momentary lapse. --Dweller (talk) 12:42, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
• It would probably help if someone actually notified Medeis of this discussion. I've just let them know about it on their talk page. — Mr. Stradivarius 21:53, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

I made a technical objection to an RfC which was wrongly worded. ITN/R is based on the assumption that any item listed on it has significantly strong support overall as to its importance that repeatedly listing it is a waste of time. Therefore, the question at hand should be, "does consensus actually exist to retain this item?" not "is there consensus to remove this item?" In fact, given any lack of strong consensus the item should be removed. I believe I made that clear in my original statement.

That being said, there's no TBAN on either of us, I made no personal comment, but purely on the topic (we are both allowed to edit any topic at ITN or related to it, even if the other has edited or created the same thread, as per the original 2012 IBAN discussions, so long as we do not revert each other or refer directly to each other's comments). The RfC itself is not a comment. I did not respond to any comment of TRM's. We have agreed and disagreed on dozens of items either or both of us has worked on or nominated with this being the first suggestion one cannot object to the wording of an RfC. μηδείς (talk) 22:14, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

This was a direct contravention of the IBAN. The comment was made as a direct response to my proposal. It's clear. Not to mention that your own statement was not only erroneous, but that you were told as much by at least two other editors. As it is both incorrect and a contravention of the IBAN ("These bans include article, talk, wikipedia, and user space, without exception. No mention of the others or their actions shall be permitted."), it'd be best for you to strike it. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:04, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

• Medeis: you're wrong. Now forget it and move on. Guy (Help!) 07:20, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Apologising when you're wrong is more appropriate than forgetting it... --Dweller (talk) 13:05, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

True, but forced apologies are not apologies. I'd rather he decided that for himself. Guy (Help!) 22:26, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Regardless of the patently erroneous nature of Medies' edit, it would be helpful and equitable if the IBAN was enacted equally. Or else we should remove the IBAN altogether and go for a free-for-all once again. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:05, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

I'd be glad to move on, I did not start this, and I agree that a forced apology is not an apology. Had I called TRM "disgusting" in an edit summary I might apologize for it, although I'd actually just expect to be blocked or desysoped instead. But RfC's and section titles and blurbs don't belong to anyone, and given we've both been editing the same threads, since the IBAn was put in place explicitly allowing us to do so since the beginning of 2013, I am not sure what has changed. Merely objecting that an RfC begs the question is not a personal comment.

I still believe that any RfC about an item on ITN/R should be worded, "Is there consensus to keep the item", not otherwise, given the whole notion is based on an assumed consensus which in many cases never existed. I did not call TRM disgusting in an edit summary within the last week, or even address any of his edits of the RfC thread: I avoided reading them as I am supposed to. Note that I have not commented further in any way on the RfC, do not know its current status, and have been happy to accept the status quo.

Nor did I say on 9 March 2015 that "It matters not a jot what you have to say here, this is not about you, has nothing to do with you and your opinion is irrelevant. My opinion stands, as does the IBAN. The Rambling Man (talk) 5:40 pm, (UTC−4)" when Baseball Bugs suggested dropping the IBAN at least between the two of them, if not me.

I suggest any concerned admin read the original three ANI discussions beginning in November 2012 that made it quite clear that TRM and I could still edit the same pages and threads, just not address each personally other or revert or characterize each other's edits. Edits are not the same as nominations, and for two years neither TRM nor I has complained when I or he has disagreed on the merits of a thread at ITN or elsewhere, regardless of who nominated it. μηδείς (talk) 04:27, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

To reiterate, the IBAN should be implemented equally. This is a clear infringement of the terms of the IBAN. There's little else to discuss. The Rambling Man (talk) 05:39, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

• I have no intention of continuing this, filing a counter-complaint, or explaining myself further, but it did occur to me sleeping on the matter that the topic involved in the ITN/R discussion is one that seems to be dear to TRM's heart. So, out of good faith, I will admit no wrong, but simply refrain from commenting in threads he starts on that topic going forward. It matters to him, and I can understand that. If an admin wants further comment please ping me. μηδείς (talk) 20:25, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

To reiterate, the IBAN should be implemented equally. This is a clear infringement of the terms of the IBAN. There's little else to discuss. The "dearness to my heart" is a red herring, and let's not forget that not only did Medeis deliberately comment in objection to my own comment, she did it with false assertions, clearly indicated to her by numerous other editors. It's the absolutely abject and flagrant abuse of the IBAN that needs to be addressed, in equality to the way I have been dragged through ANI some four, five, six times under false pretences. This is a clear and absolute violation. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:29, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Honestly, I can see why the entire Misplaced Pages universe holds most admins in disdain. This obvious case of IBAN infraction has been overlooked for a fortnight, and yet the resulting discussion is inevitable. Someone will say "Medeis, please play nicely" and conclude the post. So when that happens, please remove the IBAN altogether so that I can freely express my concerns over a number of her edits and false assertions without being subject to yet another trip to ANI. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:40, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

There is, of course, a step you can personally take which would instantly raise the average quality level of the admin corps. BMK (talk) 23:05, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Please don't do that, Beyond My Ken. ---Sluzzelin talk 23:08, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Does something about the irony of one of the worst admins on Misplaced Pages complaining about the quality of the admins on Misplaced Pages not bother (or amuse) you? BMK (talk) 23:20, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Just taking a cursory glance at your talkpage and its history demonstrates that you are far from being in any position to criticise the behaviour of any other single person on Misplaced Pages. That's irony! The Rambling Man (talk) 07:57, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

It seems you overlooked one fairly salient fact: I ain't an admin, who, I recall, "are expected to lead by example and to behave in a respectful, civil manner in their interactions with others. ... should strive to model appropriate standards of courtesy and civility to other editors and to one another." BMK (talk) 08:33, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Glass houses Kenny, glass houses. And, ironically, for all your persistent stalking and criticism, you don't actually do anything about it. Time to put up or shut up. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:40, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Manny, Manny, Manny, what are we going to do with you?Manny, I'm not some fool you can goad into tilting at windmills for your amusement. But you know what I think is interesting, Manny? Here we are, on the Administrators' noticeboard, where any number of administrators hang out. I posted a commented referring to you as "one of the worst admins on Misplaced Pages" about eleven hours ago, and not a single admin has seen fit to contradict me or speak out on your behalf.Do you think that means something, Manny? Do you think that perhaps it might mean that they know, as do I, that showing any pattern of misusing your tools would be difficult, if not impossible, and that because of that there's little to no chance of getting you desysopped by ArbCom, but that they also know that your combative attitude, rudeness, lack of collegiality, incivility, self-centeredness, and general unpleasantness makes you the poster child for the type of person who should never have received the bit in the first place, and that is what makes you one of the worse admins on the project? Do you think that might be possible, Manny, that your fellow admins don't think very highly of you either? BMK (talk) 10:11, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Seriously Ken, either do something about it or stop stalking me and making personal attacks against me. Continuing to do that will result in your account being blocked. And actually, since none of this is relevant to this topic, I suggest you either continue it at an appropriate venue or get over it. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:24, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

"Continuing to do that will result in your account being blocked." Manny, can you clarify for me -- was that a prediction of a possible future action being taken by another admin, or were you seriously threatening -- right here on the Administrators' noticeboard, in front of all these admins -- to block me for a discussion in which you are quite obviously WP:INVOLVED?So, "stalking you"-- by which I presume you mean WP:HARASSMENT, since we don't call it "Wikistalking" any more -- is a very serious charge, Manny. I presume you're prepared to back it up with evidence presented at AN/I? (BTW, I doubt very much whether a long-term editor's evaluating your worth as an admin is ever going to be considered to be a "personal attack", but you can try.) BMK (talk) 10:47, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Sure, it's commonplace to be blocked for calling someone a "jerk". Now then, stop disrupting this discussion for your own pleasure, and take it where it counts, if you have any courage to do so. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:50, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

I think you may have missed my question above -- were you threatening to block me for a discussion in which you are quite clearly WP:INVOLVED? BMK (talk) 10:55, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Incidentally, Manny, you opened up this subject area when you wrote "Honestly, I can see why the entire Misplaced Pages universe holds most admins in disdain." BMK (talk) 10:58, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Your question is irrelevant. You have, separately, called me a jerk. That's (another) personal attack for which you can be blocked. It's all very simple. And no, your interjection, as you were informed by Sluzzelin, was neither needed nor wanted. Now, go do something practical about your complaints, or stop trotting out the same broken record. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:21, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

It's "irrelevant" to ask an admin whether he was threatening to block an editor over a discussion in which the admin was involved? That's an interesting view you have of your duties and responsibilities to the community, Manny.Anyway, I'll be looking forward to your formal charge of WP:HARASSMENT at AN/I, and all the evidence you're going to produce of my following you around to articles and talk pages I've never been to before simply to criticize you. Should be interesting. (Oh ... wait ... when you wrote "stalkiing", was that ... rhetoric?) BMK (talk) 11:41, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Close please...

I started an RfC at Talk:G. Edward Griffin on the characterisation of laetrile within the article, a response to repeated demands by one user to substantially change the lede in this regard.

The RfC has been running for a while, I think consensus is pretty clear, but we are still seeing new requests for edits based on the same arguments. I have no wish to pursue sanctions against this editor, who I think is sincere and in general a very good sort, but I think that if we cannot draw a line under this and move on, then the endless argufying will lead to sanctions, and that would be a bad outcome for everyone.

So, if someone could pop by and review the open RfCs on that page, it would be much appreciated. Thanks. Guy (Help!) 07:17, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

WP:CANVASSING76.118.223.82 (talk) 03:31, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

This is just a request for someone to close the RFC. This kind of request is radically different from what WP:Canvassing considers to be problematic. Nyttend (talk) 19:08, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Do I hear quacking? Guy (Help!) 22:43, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

BBC Technology journalist wants to talk to admin(s) about checkuser

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

BBC Technology journalist, Rory Cellan-Jones, would like to talk CU with someone. This is follow up from the Grant Shapps sockpuppet investigation - Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Hackneymarsh/Archive. Anyone interested can contact Rory on Twitter @ruskin147 Nthep (talk) 08:59, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

I passed him on to Jimbo. As usual with Misplaced Pages dramas of this sort, the details can't be discussed publicly but people still want to talk about it so they fill in the gaps with speculation. Guy (Help!) 12:40, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

This has already made its way to WP:RFAR. anybody who actually knows anything about it is not likely to be feeling very talkative on the subject. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:31, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Legitimate requests such as this, from bona fide journalists, are not a matter for Arbcom, and should not be hatted in the above manner. Both WMUK (as this is a UK issue) and WMF have professional media officers whose job it is to handle such queries (and who have been doing so in this case) and to whom RCJ should be referred. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:26, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

I think you've misunderstood. Of course responding to a query from a journalist is not a matter for arbcom. The propriety of what one specifc CU may or may not have already told another journalist is the matter now before arbcom, making it unlikely (and probably inadvisable) for any other CUs to feel like discussiong this in public lest they too be dragged before the committee. I can assure the entire functionaries team is well aware of the situation. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:41, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Copyvio in timed text

I've tagged TimedText:2015-04-22-1700-1800-bbc-radio4-pm-wikipedia-experiment.ogg.en.srt for speedy deletion as a copyvio (its a verbatim transcript of a BBC radio programme), but because it's timed, text, and has no associated video, the tag is not showing. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:20, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

N Deleted. I won't pretend to have the slightest undertanding of what was going there, but obviously it was a huge copyvio. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:50, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

TimedText-space is basically just captions for audio/video files. If the file itself is in the public domain or under fair use, then any transcription of the same content should be considered to fall under the same copyright classification, no? In any case, Sladen is an experienced user and should've probably been asked about this upfront. I can't seem to find the associated file, though, so I won't restore the TimedText just yet. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 23:09, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Uh, it was quite clearly the entire text of a BBC program from the last few days. I can't imagine it being PD or fair use. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:48, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

This would be the source material. Note the copyright notices. Please don't restore it. I don't know why such an experienced editor wouldn't know better but it is quite clearly a copyvio. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:58, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Salvidrim! thanks for the heads up, I guess the mandatory {{AN-notice}} must have gotten lost. I would hope that those whom "won't pretend to have the slightest undertanding of what was going" on could restore this transcript in the mean-time, then pop-by WP:ANI#PM (BBC Radio 4) and ask any further questions thereafter. Beeblebrox: hopefully it's clear from the huge gaps in timestamps that the transcript covers ~5 minutes out of 60 minutes (ie. only what is needed for our purposes). Neither is it merely a direct transcription of audio: significant effort has been put into providing 50-millisecond resolution timings again to lessen any doubt. May I draw attention to the guidance at WP:G12 starting at the wording "For equivocal cases which do not meet speedy deletion criteria …".

All-in-all, seeing the handling of the above reminds me of the Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/2008 IWF action/Media coverage#BBC Radio 4: Today Programme incident from a few years ago where we had enthusiastic admins diving in without context and threatening blocks/bans/deletes left-right-and-centre, all in the middle of other editors trying to get on and collectively deal with the resulting meta fallout and coordinate media appearances whilst other people were still wondering why they couldn't even edit (yes, IIRC I did the original reference transcripts for dealing with that incident too, and yes IIRC they got deleted randomly too, and yes they've been there just fine ever since). Please, take a deep breath, look around the relevant noticeboards, and if you "don't know why" ask other editors first. —Sladen (talk) 00:19, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

It wasn't deleted "randomly" it was deleted as a copyright violation. Which it is. Fair use of small bits of copyrighted material is usually ok, but five entire minutes of a copyrighted broadcast is excessive. The fact that it has to do with WP seems to be your underlying reason, but I am not aware of any exception to our copyright policies in cases of a user wanting to "deal with the resulting media fallout and coordinate media appearances." I am equally unaware of any requirement that I check every possible noticeboard before evaluating whether or not something is a copyvio. So I don't believe I will be restoring it. Beeblebrox (talk) 01:48, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for responding. Indeed, while nobody can force a requirement to read admin noticeboards before wielding the wheel bit (hence the polite "please"), it may assist communication with other editors to at least more carefully read what is being responded to—prior to replying—as this would in-turn allow accurate quoting which may be helpful all-round. …I'm still puzzling over the juxtaposition of the preceding "I can assure the entire functionaries team is well aware of the situation." with the following "won't pretend to have the slightest undertanding".

As a proponent of libre content it pains me to to highlight en.wiki's policies for its own management, but; "Exemptions from non-free content policy are made for the use of non-free content on certain administrative, non-article space pages as necessary to creating or managing the encyclopedia" (WP:NFEXMP). In terms of fair use, in the UK this falls under "criticism, review and reporting current events" as defined by the fair dealing provisions of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 (plus enabling access by deaf and hard-of-hearing people, and the study by those with dyslexia or English as a second-language).

Now, at T+72 hours I think the immediacy of the people requesting a transcription has been served. It's now an ex-event. Thank you for having taken care of the deletion; I hope that should an occasion arise to restore it, the assistance will be equally helpful and …speedy. —Sladen (talk) 20:49, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

You may have a point about the apparent cotradiction. When I said I didn't have the slightest understanding, that was because I had basically no experience with the "timed text" wikispace, but what it looked like to me was text that was supposed to be attached to an ogg audio file that was not in evidence, so no idea what was going on with that specifically, while being very aware of the broader situation as it had been under discussion on the functionaries mailing list (and apparently the checkuser mailing list before that) before moving on to an arbcom matter.

As to the matter of whether this was a permissible exception to our copyright policies, I don't think it was. I don't think it is at all a good idea for the volunteer community to even attempt to manage and respond to press attention. The WMF has staff who are paid to do that, and it is one area where the paid staff is undeniably better at the job than the volunteers. I can't see why simply linking to the original material would not be sufficient. Obviously we have differing opinions on that and I would have liked to see more participation here so that we could determine which of us was closer to the right answer, but you're right, this seems a non-issue now. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:04, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Request for review of close at Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters#Request for comment - Capitalise universe

This RfC was recently closed by User:AlbinoFerret. It is unfortunate that the request for closure requested an uninvolved editor when it should have, because of the contentious nature of the issue, requested an uninvolved administrator. The closer is not an administrator. The close, with respect to option 1 and option 3 is apparently contradictory and thereby contentious. The close is likely to be a source of future disruption rather than a resolution of a contentious issue. The closer was asked to review the decision to resolve the contradiction (see Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters#Request for review. Responses by the closer confirm their close but do not reconcile the contradiction. The closer asserts that the two options (1 and 3) are not synonymous but this was not explicit from the RfC discussion. Compounding the matter is the issue of whether the addition of a further five options (from the one originally proposed) has, intentionally or otherwise (this is not a notification of misconduct), disrupted the process. Cinderella157 (talk) 08:04, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

I just point out a few things in the section that my clarification was written in link. Two responders posted that they decided not to answer the third question. The responders on both sides of the third question recognised there was a difference in the questions and commented on those usages. I dont see any posts in the RFC itself questioning the addition of the 5 questions. The questions were all added on the same day and only one of the three responders to question 1 that answered before the addition did not answer the other five, and that the questions ran 30 days. AlbinoFerret 13:16, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Actually I did post an objection in the RfC itself by saying "Editors disrupted by heckling and adding irrelevant alternatives which then had to be discussed till the whole thing was TLDR; I see that's happening again ...". But I must add that I did not object to uninvolved editors being closers. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 13:48, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, you did object to the previous RFC, but nothing was specifically objected to in the one in question. AlbinoFerret 02:29, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Ditto, an objection was made at . Cinderella157 (talk) 02:04, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

An objection to question #4 which was closed no consensus. Which has the effect of not answering it at all, which you suggested should have been done when you opened this section. AlbinoFerret 02:08, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

@User:AlbinoFerret The link provided was to alternative 4 in the previous RfC, not to this RfC just closed. In the earlier RfC, options 4, 5 and 6 were added after the statement: "What the heck is this addition? If it remains I'm adding more alternatives." These actions are refered to immediately above by Peter Gulutzan The edit at was an objection to addition of options 2 to 5, that had been added just prior to my objection to their addition (option 6 was added later). The edit adding options 2-5 was made at 07:43, 22 March 2015. Immediately before posting options 2-5, the editor made the following statement: "I find the new rehash exceedingly disruptive. If it isn't removed I'll start another slower step-by-step RfC. This one is just going to have the same things introduced as the last one... that's a lot of copying and pasting." A dispute notification was made at 06:22, 22 March 2015 by that editor. An response was made at Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters#Astronomical Capitalization Issues by Robert McClenon at 16:07, 22 March 2015. Cinderella157 (talk) 03:48, 26 April 2015 (UTC) Cinderella157 (talk)

These endless arguments about MOS issues have cnvinced me that we should not even have our own MOS anymore and should simply use one written by actual experts. We shouldn't be making up our own grammatical rules, we should do as we do in all other things- follow the best reliable sources out there. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:05, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

That would be such a relief. BMK (talk) 23:18, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

It's a brilliant idea. Now all we need is a quick, non contentious RFC on which third party style guide to use (and whether, and how, to capitalise its title).

Begoon  04:39, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Using one other MoS would help a lot in these discussions. As long as we stick to that same single MoS for everything. Because some things like "astronomical objects" are different in every single MoS and style guide. But what happens if the style guide we choose doesn't cover something? Would we go to a backup secondary MoS that was pre-approved? Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:26, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for the QED. Inventing the wheel is easy. Deciding what colour a wheel should be, or how to spell color? Not so much.

The wheels still work, though...Begoon  16:21, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

After a year on arbcom followed by drafting two major policy RFCs (both of which basically failed to accomplish anything) I am trying to stay out of that arena and do little, day-to-day admin sruff right now, but if someone actually wants to put this together and see if we can make it happen I'd be all about it. We would probably have to maintain a bare-bones MOS here just for WP-only issues involving internal links and so forth, but there is simply no reason for us to have internal debates on capitalization, dashes-vs-hyphens, serial commas, etc. It is a sideshow that does little to improve the encyclopedia and much to harm it in the form of one drama blowout after another, often ending with one or more MOS warrior being blocked or banned.

I have an essay on the subject of these types of big RFCs at User:Beeblebrox/The perfect policy proposal that may be of some help. Anyone up for it? Beeblebrox (talk) 20:32, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Another UAA backlog

If there are any admins hanging around, can you please free up the backlog of user reported filings at the UAA board? Thanks! And Adoil Descended (talk) 12:52, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

The board is caught up again but fills up fast, so any help throughout the day would be appreciated. -- Diannaa (talk) 16:22, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Long standing request for admin help

Chaps and chapesses, I have a longstanding request for admin assistance on my talk page. I have tried the IRC channel the other day and today to no avail. All I need is someone experienced in these matters to answer on my talk page. I'm surprised this has taken a while since I usually receive an answer very fast indeed. I wonder if that means that I have posed a difficult problem. Fiddle Faddle 13:51, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

I've replied on your talk page. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:03, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

I request a restructure of my current TBAN

Preamble

This is a request to change, not remove my restrictions. I understand that I cannot use this request as a means to re-argue the ban that was placed on me, further, I have notified the banning administrator User:Fluffernutter already and have provided a link to this discussion. Per the conditions of that ban I may appeal at The administrators noticeboard or The Arbitration Enforcement Noticeboard . I am choosing to use the Administrators Noticeboard so as to get the maximum input of the community involved. I am also aware that once I post on the AN board, my conduct goes under a microscope and I may be subject to flat, airborne, returning objects flying in my direction. I appologize , in advance, for the length of this report. I felt it necessary to detail my behavior and those involved so as to give a fair report to both sides of the issue. I have sub-divded the argument so as to avoid the "Wall-O-Text" effect. I have further {hat} / {hab} 'ed the details to make reading this request easier.

Brief history of the ban

* I was topic banned for 6 months on October 1, 2013 by Fluffernutter.

* Six months elapsed and my ban was lifted.

* On April 14th , 2014 I was indef banned by Fluffernutter.

* The exact nature of my ban is : topic banned from "all pages and discussions related to transgender issues, broadly construed" .

* Record of the topic ban can be here .

My proposed outcome

I am , again, not requesting that my topic ban be lifted, but rather, restructured. Specifically:

* I request that I continue to be topic banned, broadly construed to only the topic of Chelsea Manning , my edit summary promising to edit war with Fluffernutter cannot be construed any other way other than disruptive, even though I never carried out such a promise, as far as I'm concerned, it's proof that in that article, and solely in that article, I demonstrated disruptive conduct, as such a topic ban was clearly earned on my part.

* Fluffernutter has also topic banned me from MOS:ID under the same discretionary sanction. I ask for it to be lifted with the understanding that: I am to avoid MOS:ID for 6 months, broadly construed, after 6 months time, I may revert obvious vandalism only, six months after that, I can request a lifting of sanction from that page completly, and if consensus is that it be lifted, then good, otherwise, let consensus dictate what restrictions, if any should be given to me.specifically on MOS:ID.

* I would request that I be allowed to edit any other articles relating to transgender issues. There never was any history of disruption across that whole topic of transgender issues or people, only on one specific topic in one specific article, thus a topic ban for all such articles is punitive and not preventative.

KoshVorlon R.I.P Leonard Nimoy "Live Long and Prosper" 11:24, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support as Proposer KoshVorlon R.I.P Leonard Nimoy "Live Long and Prosper" 15:43, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
• TL;DR If you want any support for this proposal, please shorten it (or provide a summary). You know as well as I do that a lot of people aren't going to slog through this wall-o'-text. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 17:40, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
• Comment OK... a bunch of stuff's been hatted up - creating a brief summary. Thanks for the suggestion. KoshVorlon R.I.P Leonard Nimoy "Live Long and Prosper" 17:49, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
• Question - How would any disruptive behavior on transgender related articles be handled if it occurs? Would you expect it to be treated like any other editor with incremental warnings (which for inexperienced editors amounts to a 5-strikes-you're-out policy), or would you expect to be under a higher level of scrutiny with fewer (or perhaps no) warnings? Just curious how you envision this. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 17:57, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

*Answer EvergreenFir Per my agreement with Floquenbeam I would be on 0RR on Transgender articles (I'm by default on it anyway ), also per that agreement, any discussion that I get involved in , where at least 3 users in good standing disagree with me, I would need to drop what ever it is I'm discussing and leave it be, so this would take care of disruptive behavior. However, if I screw up , because I've been topic banned I'd fully expect a higher level of scrutiny. I'd say 1 warning only, if I fail for whatever reason to heed that warning, I get TBAN'ed again. I'm not a newbie, I know what 3RR and NPA is, so I would have no excuse. KoshVorlon R.I.P Leonard Nimoy "Live Long and Prosper" 18:17, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support Seems like a reasonable restructuring. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:25, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose User has history of recommencing disruptive behaviour directly after bans/blocks. Behaviour on Manning was particularly egregious. Not encouraged by the appeal the second the moratorium on appeal expired either, unless the user can show us some edits they think need making so urgently. Begoon  21:00, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

• Comment Look down at the next topic, I think this is a retaliatory strike against me for my comment on unbanning Peter Damien. KoshVorlon R.I.P Leonard Nimoy "Live Long and Prosper" 21:06, 15 April 2015 (UTC) _{Struck out as a good-faith move. KoshVorlon R.I.P Leonard Nimoy "Live Long and Prosper" 21:28, 15 April 2015 (UTC)}

No Kosh, it's a genuine analysis. I looked through your talkpage archives shortly after you posted this, long before Peter's appeal was ever mooted. Not everything's a battle, even if you want to treat it as such. AGF, y'know. Fix the sig, please, it's ugly. Begoon  21:11, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Ok, tell you what, just like I offered to below, if consensus says I'm wrong, I'll strike my comment. KoshVorlon R.I.P Leonard Nimoy "Live Long and Prosper" 21:20, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

I don't care. You accused me of a "retaliatory strike". It's bollocks, but strike it or leave it as you see fit. No skin off my nose either way. The sig is an eyesore, though, did I mention that? Begoon  21:24, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

I've got to agree that the signature is both a bit of an eyesore, and, well, at this point, kind of dated. Nimoy's been dead a month and a half at this point, and keeping it for this long does look, well, weird. John Carter (talk) 21:30, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Oh, no, I love the Nimoy tribute, it's the "look at me, I'm the biggest, most noticeable, blurriest thing on the page" thing that makes my eyes sore. Anyway, that's a discussion for somewhere else, and Kosh has had it drawn to his attention many times before. That's the kind of stubbornness that makes me uneasy about this request, actually. Oh look, we're back on topic. Begoon  21:38, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

2 users have asked me to change my signature, so , consider it done. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 21:51, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Lose. the. shadow. I'm a huge B5 fan, so yeah, shadows. But lose it. It's visually offensive. That's an opinion, and I do acknowledge your willingness to consider change. Just consider change to something that doesn't overwhelm people's eyeballs. That's a request, nothing more. Begoon  21:57, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Agree on the sig, fix it for real. You're not exactly showing a lot of cooperative and collegial spirit for someone who wants a topic ban adjustment. BMK (talk) 22:09, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Lose the shadow. It's distracting and unclear. Try to listen to your colleagues when they raise a genuine concern. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 22:51, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Heck yes, kill the shadow and make the whole thing less huge. IMHO, even your revised sig does two things, both of which are bad for you. It makes you look egotistical (ME!ME!ME!) and it distracts from what you're actually saying. --Dweller (talk) 10:32, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

I like artistic signatures, sorry about that :) I did change it again, no shadow this time. Hopefully this is a bit better. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 10:59, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

No, it's not. Now, part of it is so faint it makes me think my eyesight is failing even as I read it. BMK (talk) 11:35, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Changing colors is pretty easy.KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 11:49, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

--Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 14:10, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Much better, thanks. BMK (talk) 18:25, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

I think it looks cool and I was thinking of making a sig like that but I won't. Don't want to hurt others eyes. Popish Plot (talk) 20:27, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Now that the signature's settled. Let's get a consensus on my proposed outcome :) KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 17:45, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Agreed, let's. I'm still opposed, for the reasons I gave above, but open to persuasion. You didn't answer the question about what edits you want to make that you're currently prevented from making. Maybe I didn't phrase it that well. I'll rephrase it: What edits do you want to make that you're currently prevented from making? Thanks for adjusting the sig. Begoon  18:37, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Begoon Sorry, I missed your question the first time. At the moment, there are no edits that I need to make, however, I do vandal runs and my restrictions prevent me from removing vandalism on any transgender articles, also, my restrictions make it impossible for my to participate in any way on any issues that touch transgender issues. If allowed I to edit and particpate I would observe the agreement I have with Floquenbeam (0RR, no hatting anyone's stuff except mine, 3 users in good standing tell me to drop the stick, I drop it ). Thank you KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 19:12, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

KoshVorlon Tagging on to the response of 19:12, 17 April 2015 (UTC), How frequently are you hitting TG articles during your vandal runs? What is the mean time to someone else noticing the vandalism (after you've spotted it) to being reverted? What specific topics would you have participated in had the restrictions on TG issues not been in place for you? I'm trying to establish a feeling for your influence/impact before I give my view. Hasteur (talk) 21:12, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Hasteur I don't hit a lot of articles on my vandal runs, I can sometimes go a few runs with no Transgender topics being hit. Keep in mind, it's not just articles I'm restricted from, any place on Misplaced Pages where a transgender topic is mentioned, AN, ANI, BLP, V, etc... I literally can not say a word about it. As to your second question, what topics would I have participated in? Well, Leelah Alcorn, specifically this section in the talk page comes to mind, also this talk page discussion on Leelah Alcorn as well as the very next message in the talk page, also here on a BLP board message called Women and Video Games. If you're asking , would I continue the same argument I had before, no, in fact, I'm still asking that I be banned from the topic of Chelsea Manning, broadly construed and I'm also asking that for now, I remain banned from MOS:ID, also broadly construed to prove that I'm not looking to re-hash the same argument. Does that answer the question ? KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 18:07, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Oppose I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing a compelling reason why the restriction should be relaxed in the face of the few incidents in which your restriction is prohibiting you from participating. Given that there's a great amount of volunteers who can (and would handle the issues you raise as the justification for relaxing). Seeing that the case was decided a little under 2 years ago, and you were warned again less than a year ago about the ArbCom case I see relapses of poor judgement. Hasteur (talk) 18:10, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Kosh, I'd like to ask you a question. It's a long time ago that you made that agreement with Floq. Why, instead of moving past that, and growing to a point where that kind of thing would be unnecessary, are you still the kind of editor that needs such a restriction? It's been a long while. Sorry if you think that's presumptuous, but I often wonder why people don't basically change and grow. This should be a thing buried in your past by now. Yet it's not. Begoon  15:27, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Begoon I kept the restriction because it worked well for me. I'm a believer in the phrase "If it works, dont' change it " :) KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 18:16, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. I'm going to stay in the "oppose" camp, for now, then, because "If it works, dont' change it " . I think the restriction has been working quite well, but I encourage you to appeal it again, after a reasonable time, if there are good edits which it is preventing which are not getting done. Begoon  14:44, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

(So this is how things end up appearing in the archives twice... I've often wondered. Fixed.) Begoon  03:57, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose The project will not be harmed if the existing restriction is maintained. There's reason to believe it might be harmed if the restriction is restructured. Townlake (talk) 16:59, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose I really don't like complicating restrictions or unnecessarily relaxing them. I'd have been open to agreeing to providing an exception for obvious vandalism only, but well...that can wait. Ncmvocalist (talk) 21:57, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

User page profanity

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

What is the policy on user pages like ==MOTHERFUCKER== Shit Bitch Ass Damn Fuck

?? Iceblock (talk) 08:56, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

The julia ginsburg (talk · contribs). The user has not made any edits since their four contributions over a year ago. I'll blank the page after posting this. Johnuniq (talk) 09:30, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply, User:Johnuniq! Iceblock (talk) 09:32, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

No, the policy is to delete the page as it is just pure vandalism. I've made the nomination. 103.6.156.167 (talk) 10:20, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

I've deleted it. Any admin who disagrees may reinstate it if they wish. Peridon (talk) 12:31, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Why so? It does meet G3, doesn't it? 103.6.156.167 (talk) 12:43, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

There is always room for interpretation, based on the other edits from the account, it was likely vandalism, but if you took AGF to the limit, you could come up with some other interpretation. Ultimately, it could have just been left there, and done no harm, as it may be another 4 years before anyone else lands on that particular use page, and the person landing there may not be offended anyway. Blanking it mostly solved the problem to, what are the odds of someone looking in the history, and seeing the vandalism? Deleting the page under G3 is also clearly permissible under policy. Even with the invitation from the deleting admin to reinstate it if another admin merely wishes to, which is as low a standard as you can ask for, another admin would still need some reason to justify tool use to restore it, which I doubt there will be, so it will stay deleted. Monty₈₄₅ 13:19, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Had the account been something like User:Beetrootsalad, I probably wouldn't have bothered. With a personal name on it, I don't like to take a chance. Peridon (talk) 13:32, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

User violated personal attacks

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A user by the name of Kuniwa egregiously violated Misplaced Pages's policy of no personal attacks on my talk page, with profanity no less. He just told me to "go fuck ". I'm demanding he be blocked. Thanks. Scaravich105nj (talk) 15:29, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

In response to this no doubt. Harry 15:37, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Who's side are you on, Harry. If you take a look at Kuniwa's edit right here, you'll see he's nothing but a vandal. He added that over 11,000 people had been killed in the earthquake, when everybody knows nowhere near that many were killed. And then he violated WP:NPA. He should still be blocked. Scaravich105nj (talk) 15:40, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

That's not obviously vandalism. 11500 could be a typo for 1500. Your response is over-the-top and unwarranted. DrKiernan (talk) 15:42, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Well, apparently I'm not the only one who thinks he's a vandal. Kuniwa just got blocked indefinitely for his disruptive editing. Do you still think my response was "unwarrented", DrKiernan? :) Scaravich105nj (talk) 15:47, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm on the side of civility. If you expect civility you have to be civil yourself, even in the face of vandalism. IME using profanity on someone else's talk page will often lead them to respond in kind. Neither is right of course. Harry 15:45, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes. You think it acceptable to call someone a prick and tell them to get a fucking life and then complain when they respond in kind. Look to your own behavior first. DrKiernan (talk) 15:47, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

I've made an additional request of User:Scaravich105nj here. Paul Erik 15:51, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

The irony here is hard to miss, complaining that someone said "go fuck yourself" and demanding they be blocked when you just got finished calling them a prick, goddamn vandal, and a douchebag in a single edit. You are lucky not to be blocked yourself right now, so I hope your agreement on your talk is something you take to heart and actually do. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:12, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Well, to each his own, Beeblebrox, to each his own. You know the old saying, sometimes you just have to call a spade a spade. Scaravich105nj (talk) 16:19, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

You aren't seriously trying to defend that edit, are you? This doesn't fill me with confidence that you understand why that was wrong and are sincere in your promise not to act like that in the future. You have drawn attention to yourself with this ill-advised thread, as I'm sure you must realize by now. Acting like that again would not be a good idea. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:52, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

FYI on OTRS auto-responses

Hi all. Just wanted to let you know that following an internal discussion amongst the OTRS team, which was preceded by a discussion on Commons, we have went ahead and enabled auto-responses for English-language permissions tickets. As a result, you may notice an increase in users mentioning ticket numbers when attempting to get their files undeleted, an increase in AbuseFilter hits caused by non-OTRS members adding their own templates or other activity relating to this change.

If you have any questions feel free to drop a line here or at the WP:OTRS/N. Thank you. Rjd0060 (talk) 18:49, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

TheGracefulSlick

Moved to AN/I. BMK (talk) 00:15, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Bureaucrats' noticeboard#Should we start directing users to Special:GlobalRenameUser?

Comments invited as to whether we should begin directing users to the Special:GlobalRenameUser interface for straightforward renames. –xeno 16:53, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

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