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Israel is occupaying the State of Palestine since 1967?

How can this be possible if the State of Palestine was proclaimed in 1988 and still considered a De-Jure nation with a veto from 3 of the 5 permanent members of the UN security council. And whatever describes the years 1967-1988, the State of Palestine was recognized by half of the UN members only in 1992. The question we need to ask is, "from whom the Israel conquered the West Bank and the Gaza Strip", the answer will be from Jordan and Egypt, but the Jordanian annexed West Bank and the Egyptian millitary government were bearly recognized. Since the land was firstly legaly held by the UK but then the UK relinquished all claims to the land and Egypt and Jordan illegally occupeid the West Bank and the Gaza Strip so the land is an hole at least until 1988 when a state was proclaimed. --'''Bolter21''' (talk) 12:23, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

read thru the archives.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 08:38, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

What? --Bolter21 20:57, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

This already been done. The consensus was against it. Later when you leave someone will come back and do it again and also fail. Go read the archives. Beyond that half of what you have to say is original research. Whether you want to or not recognize the state of Palestine, the land is and has long been recognized as occupied territory. The rest of what you have to say suggests failure to understand League of Nations mandates. By the way, it seems you have already been made aware of WP:ARBPIA, so I will only make you aware that it does apply here.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 17:04, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

I have read "through the archives" and I did not find anything, there is abviously no consensus. Please, read the Palestinian Declaration of Independence proclaimed on 15 November 1988, and the International recognition of Palestine. Yours faithfully --Point by point (talk) 18:18, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

I'll go ahead an email Kosovo and tell them they are not a state.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 18:49, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Here is the consensus, prove that the "State of Palestine" existed in 1967. If you find any evidence, you can write that the State of Israel occupies the State of Palestine. Good day. --Point by point (talk) 02:06, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

I thought we agreed. Apparently, your respond was a mockery. --Point by point (talk) 02:30, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

It was sarcasm. The Republic of Kosovo is recognized by less than the State of Palestine, you linking International recognition of Palestine isn't relevant. The land of Palestine has been under military occupation since 1967. You are aware of this correct?-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 02:51, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Is it sarcasm again? What do you mean by "the land of Palestine"? --Point by point (talk) 14:20, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

I mean the occupied Palestinian territory.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 22:24, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

It is an anachronism: "The term "Palestinian Territory, Occupied" had been utilized by the UN and other international organizations between 1998 to 2013 in order to refer to the Palestinian National Authority; it was replaced by the UN in 2013 by the term State of Palestine"

Here is the consensus, prove that the "State of Palestine" existed in 1967. If you find any evidence, you can write that the State of Israel occupies the State of Palestine.

Good day.

--Point by point (talk) 02:06, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Do you reject the consensus?

--Point by point (talk) 23:48, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

There happens to be no consensus to reject. You lack one. The land of Palestine, The so called occupied Palestinian territories, have been occupied by the Israeli military since 1967. While the State Palestine may not have been declared by the Palestinian people on their land until 1988, this is not a meaningful point. Israel did not cease their occupation upon the Declaration of the Palestinian state. The same occupation that was going on before it continued after it and continues to this day.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 02:06, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Is there even a proposal on how to change the article? If not, there's no sense having a discussion. – Zntrip 02:18, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

He want's to remove the State of Palestine flag from all of the Occupied Palestinian territory related occupations. The original person who opened this wanted to remove all the Palestinian related information.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 03:20, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Here is what I have proposed: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=List_of_military_occupations&oldid=684807454 --Point by point (talk) 02:25, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

For the egyptian military occupation of the Gaza Strip from 1948 to 1956 it is simply written "gaza strip". But the matter is gaza strip is not a state. It is also problematic. --Point by point (talk) 02:36, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Ok so yeah the Gaza Strip is now removed as the occupied state in past military conflicts.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 03:23, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Okay, so your proposal is clearly inconsistent with the consensus that Palestine is a state. If your only problem is that Palestine did not exist as a state in 1967, we can just add a note that says as much. Something to the effect of "although Israel has occupied the Palestinian territories since 1967, the State of Palestine was not proclaimed until 1988." How does that sound? – Zntrip 05:15, 10 October 2015‎ (UTC)

Sorry, I just noticed that Serialjoepsycho already added such a note (great minds think alike!). So is there still a problem? – Zntrip 05:18, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

How could Israel occupy a state that does not even existed in 1967? This is balderdash.--Point by point (talk) 17:19, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Are you denying that Israel started occupying the territorial entity Palestine in 1967? -Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 20:17, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Please do not use ad hominem attack, I am not denying anything. Territorial entity Palestine is too vague. Israel started occupying the West Bank and the Gaza Strip in 1967.

--Point by point (talk) 01:11, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

That's not an ad hominem attack, it's a question. Let's not be dramatic. It doesn't seem to vague at all. You seem to understand what it is. But since it is so vague, They started occupying what is now the State of Palestine in 1967.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 01:56, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

the term "Territorial entity Palestine " is void of sense. Before the six day war , Jordan ruled over the West Bank (and renounced its claims in 1988) and Egypt occupied the Gaza Strip . Since 1967 it is under Israeli occupation, The Palestinian National Autority was created in 1994 to administer the Areas A and B. The State of Palestine declared his independance in 1988 and was recognize by the UN in 2012 ( as a non-member observer State without international borders). --Point by point (talk) 03:17, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

I'm not actually here for a conversation as Misplaced Pages is WP:NOTSOCIALNETWORK. If you do not like the territorial entity Palestine then simply do not call it that. This list has Gaza, East Jerusalem, and the West Bank listed separately. Each is mentioned where appropriate they were seized from either Egypt or Jordan. The list also mentions that Palestine did not declare it's Independence until 1988. There aren't two separate occupations. Israel has occupied Palestinian territory since 1967. They did not stop their occupation and the restart it in either 1988 or 2012. They simply continued the one started in 1967. The consensus is that the State of Palestine is a country.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 04:03, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, therefore I'll remind you this previous message. Please answer directly.

I have read "through the archives" and I did not find anything, there is abviously no consensus. Please, read the Palestinian Declaration of Independence proclaimed on 15 November 1988, and the International recognition of Palestine. Yours faithfully --Point by point (talk) 18:18, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

The State of Palestine was recognize by the UN in 2012 as a non-member observer State.

Not in 1967. Therefore there was no State of Palestine in 1967. It is obvious.

You invented the term "territorial entity Palestine", that there existed a State of Palestine in 1967 and that Israel "restart it in either 1988 or 2012". "Misplaced Pages's Verifiability policy requires inline citations for any material challenged or likely to be challenged, and for all quotations, anywhere in article space". Has I have previously said Israel has occupied the West bank and the Gaza Strip since 1967 . --Point by point (talk) 15:09, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Semantic debate. Not a very good one. Territorial entity is not something I have created. Palestine is not something I have created. I'm not the one who made them one territorial unit. And that isn't even a discussion for this list. Misplaced Pages is WP:NOTSOCIALNETWORK. This list does not say that Palestine was a state in 1967 and that it was occupied then as a state. It lists each individual part of the State of Palestine, when they were occupied, and notes "The State of Palestine did not declare its independence until 1988. See Palestinian Declaration of Independence." -Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 18:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

I never accused you of inventing the term Territorial entity and the term Palestine. I did not ask you for a description of the article and of what a wikipedia talk page is. Could you answer directly to my question, please.

If -Serialjoepsycho- (talk) or nobody else makes a specific objection, I will have implicit consensus to restore the version of the 8 October 2015 ( 21:48): . As I have written previously, "Misplaced Pages's Verifiability policy requires inline citations for any material challenged or likely to be challenged, and for all quotations, anywhere in article space". Thank you for your understanding and cooperation. --Point by point (talk) 19:48, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Regardless of your failure or refusal to get the point, once you make that change you will see the same results. A revert telling you to go get a consensus for your change.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 21:04, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

I have exposed you the fact that there was no State of Palestine in 1967. Please answer to this polar question: Could you prove that there was a State of Palestine in 1967? If yes, cite sources. The UN documents referring to " the Israeli occupied territories" or (between 1994 and 2013) as "the Palestinian (occupied) territories".

--Point by point (talk) 21:32, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

The list does not claim that there was a Palestinian state in 1967. -Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 21:42, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

This is getting ridiculous. The article makes no claim that the State of Palestine existed in 1967. It even explicitly states that the Palestinian declaration of independence was in 1988. No reasonable person reading the article would infer that Palestine existed as a state in 1967. As far as I'm concerned this discussion should be over. – Zntrip 21:49, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

The State of Palestine, is referred as a State occupied by Israel from 1967 untill today, in the actual version. This is incosistent, regarding the fact, that there was no State of Palestine in 1967, therefore it was not an occupied State. --Point by point (talk) 22:33, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Palestine definitely existed before 1967, and that's what it was when it was part of the British Empire. And currenty, Palestine is also considered a sovereign country. Sandenig (talk) 23:05, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

No, it was mandatory palestine. As you said it was part of the British empire. It was not a State. it has nothing to do with the actual State of Palestine. Palestine, it's the same name, the name of a region. Please read this . But anyway, that is off topic.--... Point by point ... (talk) 01:03, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

It was still Palestine regardless. Sandenig (talk) 01:23, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

The list header says Occupied State, not Occupied Territory. It needs to be the state that has full jurisdiction. From 48-67, that was Egypt or Jordan. If they then gave up claims, which they did, the article should say that. But Israel is not occupying Palestine territory since no State of Palestine exists, and it certainly didn't exist in 1967. Perhaps there should be two records, one for 67-20?? and another from when they self declared a State. Yossiea 14:53, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

There's one occupation. There's not two or three separate occupations. It also again, as said above and as repeated above, does not suggest there was a Palestinian state in 1967. And 20??, Why 20?? Because of the UN? The UN having already made clear that they are not an organ for statehood recognition kind of blows that out of the water.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 18:05, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

@-Serialjoepsycho- The International laws, are applicable to states recognized by the UN. Therefore UN State recocgnition matters. The Charter of the United Nations is not a piece of paper to throw away. It is true that the UN implicitly, recognize non-member states as bound to recognize the UN principles. However let's not forget that it is still debated. Obviously, a State declare its independance "independently" and obviously, it does not have to be a member, to exercise its sovereignty over a territory with a permanent population. --... Point by point ... (talk) 11:56, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

How should Palestinian statehood be represented in this list?

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Israel has occupied the Gaza strip, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem (Palestinian territories) since 1967. Palestine declared it's independence in 1988 which has been recognized by 136 States and the Holy See. Does linking the State of Palestine this list present Undue weight? If not, how should it be listed? Should the list contain multiple listings, one for the occupation before Palestinian statehood and one for after Palestinian Statehood?-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 18:45, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - There's no undue weight in listing it here. The majority of all countries in the world have recognized Palestine as a sovereign state. Separate listings would in itself provide undue weight. At no point since the 1988 to any other proposed year of statehood has Israel ceased it's military occupation of the state of Palestine, in short there has only been one occupation.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 18:45, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
• CommentSupport linking—I would recommend listing the State of Palestine as we do now with a caveat, either immediately next to it or in a footnote, making clear that though the military occupation goes back to 1967, the State of Palestine that is today recognised by many UN members was only declared in 1988. Serialjoepsycho is right that in short there has been one continuous occupation, so I see no reason to have separate listings for before and after 1988 or any other date. —  Cliftonian (talk)  19:05, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

At the moment beside the Palestinian flag at each listing there is a footnote that says, "The State of Palestine did not declare its independence until. See Palestinian Declaration of Independence."-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 19:38, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

That's almost there in my book, but there seem to be a couple words missing. Besides everything else, the way you have it there it doesn't make grammatical sense in English. All you have to do it say when the State of Palestine did declare its independence, and it works. I would put something like "The State of Palestine declared its independence in 1988, claiming as its territory East Jerusalem, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, all of which had been occupied by Israel since 1967. See Palestinian Declaration of Independence." —  Cliftonian (talk)  18:30, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

• The declaration of the State of Palestine did not change the status of the occupation in any way. The ICRC, for instance, refers to the territories as "occupied Palestinian territory" still. As to when the occupation started, it started in 1967. 1988 is not relevant here. The issue which has changed over the years is about the status of the Palestinians - UN 242 referred to them only as refugees. In 1970s the Palestinian national rights began to be recognized in the UN General Assembly. The territory since 1967 was still occupied, whatever the status of the Palestinians. Kingsindian ♝♚ 19:55, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
• Israel could not possibly occupy State of Palestine, since the alleged occupation occurred at 1967 while the state was not declared until 1988. One can say that territories are occupied, certainly not the de-jure state that claims these territories. Per NPOV it's important to mention that it is disputed by Israel that the territories are occupied. “WarKosign” 20:21, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

It's more than clear, above and beyond ridiculously clear, that this list does not intend to say that a State of Palestine was occupied in 1967. That whole part where it acknowledges that there was no State of Palestine declared before 1988 takes care of it. One can say the the territories are occupied since they are occupied. I'm not really seeing where NPOV would require that this list mention that the status of Palestine being occupied is in dispute. Sounds like more of a WP:FALSEBALANCE to do so than anything else. It is the position of the international community that Palestine is occupied. Any diplomacy that involved this conflict is based on Palestine being occupied. The position that Palestine is not occupied is simply a "the world is flat" narrative. Except in case of Gaza and as it is currently written this narrative should be ignored.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 20:58, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

Which "Palestine" is occupied, Palestine (region) or State of Palestine (that you just wrote could not possibly be occupied) ? Please be precise. West Bank and Gaza, which are often referred to as Palestinian Territories are what is considered by many to be occupied, not any other meaning of "Palestine". These territories may become a part of State of Palestine, but we are not here to predict the future. “WarKosign” 21:08, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

WarKosign this is really very silly. That question is not ambiguous in any way. The "Palestinian territories" are the territories claimed by the State of Palestine. You know that, and you know that that is common knowledge. Oncenawhile (talk) 21:15, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

Claimed by, but (for now) not one and the same. Some people confuse them out of ignorance or out of political motivation, and it's important not to make this mistake. “WarKosign” 21:20, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

Palestine (region)? Seriously? No one is claiming that Israel is occupied. If you want be partisan great but do you really have to go out of your way to show that?-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 21:24, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

You are the one being partisan, by insisting that State of Palestine is occupied while it never was. “WarKosign” 15:10, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes and my RFC proves that I'm a partisan. And oh I advertised it neutrally but you know this must be canvassing. I also ride a unicorn to the grocery store.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 17:21, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

It's good that you are following[REDACTED] process, but it doesn't mean you can introduce biased content contradicting available sources. Are there any sources supporting the claim that the State of Palestine is occupied ? As far as I could find, this claim only comes from Palestinian officials or individual opinions, you can't get more partisan than that. There are plenty of sources supporting the statement that Palestinian Territories are considered occupied by many respectable international organizations, but combining this with with the State's claim on the territories is WP:OR or WP:SYN.

I stroke out the need to represent Israeli claim on the occupation status as immaterial to this discussion. In this list the side considered the occupier is likely to always dispute the claim. “WarKosign” 20:38, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

Love the moving goal post. Absolutely I'm the partisan (note the sarcasm).-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 21:17, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

I will express my admiration of your sarcasm at some other time. I did not know that once I pointed out nonsense (a state being occupied 11 years before it's declared) I'm not allowed to point out violations of WP:RS. I tagged the statement that has no sources with {{cn}}. Please go ahead and prove me wrong, find non-partisan sources that support your position. “WarKosign” 22:00, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

You have pointed out nonsense that isn't even there. You have moved the goal post numerous times. I don't expect there's any chance to have an honest conversation with you and as such it seems our conversation is over. Good day.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 22:56, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

To answer the question of the RfC directly: all the reliable sources say that Palestinian Territories and not State of Palestine is occupied, so this is what must be written in the "occupied state" column. It is acceptable to mention that since 1988 the territory is claimed by State of Palestine. Writing that State of Palestine is occupied is a violation of WP:RS since no reputable source supports this claim. “WarKosign” 09:14, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

• Support linking, just like I support linking Western Sahara to the SADR. This list doesn't push any POV, and linking simply makes it easier for readers to understand the whole picture. This really doesn't need discussion. Oncenawhile (talk) 21:15, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

SADR is probably better left for a separate discussion.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 23:32, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

• Support linking there is nothing in international jurisprudence that says a state cannot be created in an occupied condition. In fact, there are cases that would support that position. Of course, in 1967, Israel occupied parts of other states, which have since been widely recognised as territory of the Palestinian state. A reasonable reading of the relevant international and international humanitarian law would be that Palestine was "recognised" internationally while in an occupied condition. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 06:49, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

Israel did occupy parts of other states (the Golan Heights and the Sinai Peninsula). The West Bank was annexed by Jordan, but was "widely regarded as illegal and void" and only recognize by the United Kingdom, Iraq and Pakistan. The Gaza Strip was simply under Egyptian occupation. So it is inaccurate to say; that Israel occupied Jordan and Egypt (in the Gaza Strip) after the Six day war. The PLO, in the declaration of independance of (the/a) State (of/in the land of) Palestine. Did not specify borders of the State they proclaimed "in the land of heroic Algeria"(The PLO did not exercise control over any territory). . Today, the Palestinian National Autority only claim officially, over the Area A and B. Indeed, Mahmoud Abbas did not rejected the Oslo II Accord. thank you for your response. --... Point by point ... (talk) 11:19, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

This is not even worth responding to. Not only is it original research it's terrible original research.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 21:10, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

I have already exposed the reason of my modification on the talk page. I have also proposed you a consensus, that you rejected with no apparent reasons. You shall refrain from reverting blindly. You will have to provide evidence to support your claim. I find your behaviour offensive and somehow inappropriate. Even if you believe that my arguments do not deserve your attention, perhaps you should however make an effort to try to be less provocative and more respective. For example, Saying that something is false without an explanation, is counterproductive. --... Point by point ... (talk) 02:49, 18 October 2015 (UTC)(Deleted comment by-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) )--... Point by point ... (talk) 19:30, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

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