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State funded vs. publicly funded

There is no difference, except one has a negative connotation. Media outlets that are anti-RT call RT "state funded" while pro-RT outlets call RT "publicly funded". You can find sources saying both if you want to. The solution is standardization. We give PBS, Voice of America, and BBC a break and do not call them "state funded" even though that is objectively what they are, and one could easily find sources that call them "state funded". Masebrock (talk) 03:07, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes, there is difference. PBS is publicly funded, and RT is state-funded.--Galassi (talk) 14:35, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

From Cambridge Dictionary...

• "State Funding" is defined as money that a ​government ​provides for something
• "Public" is defined as ​supported by ​government ​funds

They are synonyms, except one has a negative connotation, which is why it is used by Western media outlets to describe RT. Masebrock (talk) 16:59, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Masebrock. It is wildly inappropriate to call RT publicly-funded. I struggle to understand how any sensible adult would try to claim it is. RT is a foreign language, external broadcaster, that provides zero service to the Russian public. However one of RT's classic "not-propaganda" defenses is to claim it is just a Russian BBC. I certainly don't think that this article should be supporting their BS.--Trappedinburnley (talk) 18:29, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

RT is of course state media. But you may be confusing being "publicly funded" with being a public broadcaster. You are right that it is not public broadcasting like BBC or PBS, but it is publicly funded like them. The question is whether we are going to use the pejorative phrase "state-funded" or the more neutral phrase "publicly-funded".Masebrock (talk) 18:39, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Also we could say "government funded", that seems fairly neutral.Masebrock (talk) 18:42, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Well then are you going to undo your revert of my edit or shall I? Trappedinburnley (talk) 18:46, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

"Government funded" it is. Just looking for the most neutral wording, happy to make a compromise.Masebrock (talk) 19:08, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

I was perfectly happy with state-funded and I can't say this will stick, but I can accept government-funded. Also, while not directly related to this discussion, you might want to read WP:WEASEL, especially the bit about WP:LEDE, before using it as you just have. Trappedinburnley (talk) 19:19, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

"State funded", when used in the context of a media outlet, is almost always used pejoratively. Some neutral synonyms of "state funded" are "publicly funded" and "government funded". The funding section of RT should at the very least be modeled after Voice of America, which like RT is publicly funded but not a public broadcaster. Regarding the attribution of criticism in the lead: you are technically correct that WP:WEASEL doesn't apply here. But isn't it extremely relevant that the criticism is coming from Western media? If I was writing a lead for BBC and I wanted to put in the lead criticism that was coming exclusively North Korea, China, and Iran, don't you think it would be relevant to mention that the criticism is coming from exclusively non-allied countries?Masebrock (talk) 19:45, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

There are a vast range of issues with this and I can't bothered to go into them all. I'll opt for the most basic: from which WP:RS have you taken the opinion that the criticism is only coming from the western media? And for that mater which have you found that call RT publicly-funded? Trappedinburnley (talk) 20:08, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Do I really need to find a reference that proves that the New York Times is in fact based in New York? I'm just describing an important aspect of the references provided. If you have criticism from countries allied with Russia, feel free to add it.Masebrock (talk) 20:20, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm not saying that only Western media has criticism. But Western media is all that is referenced. If I say "John likes Pizza", that is quite different from saying "only John likes pizza".Masebrock (talk) 20:25, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

You DO need to find a source that says that R,T is only criticized by western sources! Adding your own commentary on the origin of the sources isn't acceptable. Trappedinburnley (talk) 20:40, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

If I were saying something so bold, I would certainly need a reference. Saying that BBC is based in the UK is not "commentary."Masebrock (talk) 20:50, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

You didn't say the BBC is British or that the NYT is based in New York! You looked at the sources used to support an exceedingly carefully crafted sentence, decided they are all western so the sentence should start "Western sources say..." WP:OR. Leaving aside the policy issue, you surely must be aware of the pejorative use of the term "western" in Russia? Trappedinburnley (talk) 21:25, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

It is not WP:OR to describe the BBC and NYT as "Western" in the Cold War sense, anymore than it is to describe RT as "Russian". I think it is relevant to mention that all the sources provided are from strategic enemies of Russia. I think it is deceptive to leave that out. I've started a new topic on the talk page.Masebrock (talk) 21:43, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

It's you who are resurrecting the Evil Empire. The USSR is dead and buried. Russia is not the USSR. The BBC is not a anti-enemy-Russia propaganda outlet. You are demoniznig the "West" as "strategic enemies" of Russia. Who talks that way anymore? VєсrumЬа ►TALK 00:35, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Anti-Russian bias in Western media is well documented. The Cold War II is a thing that is actually happening.Masebrock (talk) 00:57, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

State funded, publicly funded, Government funded? Perhaps, we might close the loop to "State funded" again, and go on with a given periodicity. In the meantime, The British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) is the public service broadcaster of the United Kingdom, headquartered at Broadcasting House in London., France 24 is an international news and current affairs television channel based in Paris and CCTV News, formerly known as CCTV-9 or CCTV International is a 24-hour English news channel, of China Central Television (CCTV), based in Beijing. remain unchanged and don't attract controversy. Why is this? Should we not wonder whether this is trying to tell us something? Γνῶθι σεαυτόν (talk) 02:04, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

RT TV was described as funded not by Russian public (read "the people"), but by Russian government (read "the Kremlin") in sources because this particular government was not elected by the people. No so in UK. My very best wishes (talk) 04:35, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

The NPOV position is that Russia is a democratic republic. Funds from a democratic government are considered "public". Masebrock (talk) 06:32, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

My very best wishes, your claim that the Russian Government has not been elected by the people is highly biased, not to say straight out false, could you provide sources? Γνῶθι σεαυτόν (talk) 08:43, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

Not only it is funded by the Russian government, but according to Putin himself, "he never expected it to serve as a Kremlin mouthpiece", but it "cannot help but reflect the Russian government’s official position." . That's important. My very best wishes (talk) 16:17, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

I don't see the relevance to the question of whether RT is publicly funded. Masebrock (talk) 18:39, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

• OK. The difference between "state-funded", "publicly funded", and "government-funded" are not immaterial and our wording should a. be guided by NPOV and b. reflect what reliable sources say. An RfC is the answer for this narrow question.

  The other issue, of who criticizes the network as what, is interesting as well and should also be settled in a separate section if it is to be settled at all. To some extent, those who say that "criticized by Western media" is OR unless reliable sources say it's Western media who criticize the network; on the other hand, if it's the NYT and AIM, it's pretty obvious that it's Western media and organizations and one could make a charge of UNDUE. In between is common sense. I see no harm in our article saying something like "many Western sources" or whatever if that is indeed the case; it is no more non-neutral than saying that the NYT is a newspaper and AIM a media watchdog. No one gives a damn about what the North Korean media have to say about anything, but it is not inconceivable that other media worldwide have commented on the issue, indeed it is very likely; as long as those opinions aren't presented, we are presenting evidence selectively and the pro- editors have good cause to tag the article or scrap all of that talk. A way to alleviate the presence of selected evidence is to indicate that we're dealing with selected evidence, and saying that "Western media and watchdogs" or something like that present criticism of RT does not in itself diminish the value of that criticism, which after all should derive its strength from evidence. Drmies (talk) 23:24, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

That would involve a whole bunch of OR. What are "Western sources" exactly? Do Russian sources which criticize RT count as "Western sources"? Do sources in EASTERN Europe? Or SOUTH America? Or Western Asia? By some people's definition - and this is very much a fringe/undue view, not to mention circular - any source which criticizes RT/Putin is automatically "Western source" even if they are not in the West because, you know, if they dare to criticize RT/Putin, they're obviously "controlled" by Western sources. This whole thing is pretty much a non-starter unless some very serious academic sources are brought to the table. Volunteer Marek  00:14, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Marek, not really. NYT is American. AIM is American. BBC is British (or English, whatever). Those are Western. I'm talking about the sources that are talked about here. If you want to settle for "US and English media and blah blah", that's fine too. Or "US and Western European". You have to find a reasonable way to settle this, because if you don't, well, tags and all that. UNDUE. It's not hypothetical.

No one is talking about "controlled" and what not, and Putin doesn't have a say here. If you find Russian sources that criticize RT, add them. If they're Russian you can call them Russian. Seriously, it shouldn't have to be that hard--I know some of y'all are exasperated with some editors who seem to be little more than roadblocks, but the solution is not to bring up every single hypothetical objection--that is also waging a war of attrition. Come on Marek--in the spirit of cooperation, let's work this out. Obviously tomorrow is a different day. Drmies (talk) 00:35, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Saying "NYT is American. AIM is American. BBC is British (or English, whatever). Those are Western." and then translating that into "RT has been criticized by Western media" (or "American and British") is textbook OR. You need 1) multiple sources which state "RT has been criticized by Western media", 2) sources which state that it has been exclusively criticized by Western media. This is actually exactly the kind of synthesizing and interpreting of sources which WP:OR is suppose to prevent. What you are really complaining about here is our reliable sources policy. But that's not a relevant complaint. Volunteer Marek  01:07, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

It does not matter at all if a source was American or British. It only matters what out policy tells. The media in certain countries are more independent and known for fact checking than media in other countries. Some media are more independent and known for fact checking than other media in the same country. That matters. My very best wishes (talk) 01:31, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

If someone has an idea for a new statement to summarize the criticism directed at RT that has been reported in just about every English language media outlet on the Internet (including the dozens in this article) I suggest they post it in a new discussion. I am open to suggestion, but I really don't want to go through another 2 years of argument. However as I've seen obviously fabricated news on RT on a regular basis, I see zero hope that this article will ever stop being a battleground, so why bother? Trappedinburnley (talk) 02:08, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Mention the source of RT criticism

I think it would be quite deceptive not to mention in the lead that the sourced criticism is coming from countries that were either enemies of Russia during the Cold War or are actively at war with Russia (like Ukraine). Its sort of like slipping in commentary about South Korea that just happens to come from the North Korean news. It is, at the very least, worth mentioning where the criticism is coming from, if it is going to be included at all. Masebrock (talk) 21:15, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

The ethnicity/nationality of sources isn't really relevant if the coverage is widespread and the sources are reliable. This appears to be an attempt to poison the well. Volunteer Marek  21:50, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

The coverage is not widespread and that is my point. All the coverage presented comes from either NATO allies or countries actively at war with Russia. If the only sources with criticism come from enemy countries, then maybe these accusations should be met with skepticism.Masebrock (talk) 22:22, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

You call it poisoning the well, I call it acknowledging the bias in your sources. Masebrock (talk) 22:42, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Can you present any evidence to suggest the sources are biased. Or that propaganda and disinformation is not the commonly held view (amongst those who have ever heard of it) on what RT does? Anything that we could have a useful conversation about? Otherwise all I see is POV pushing. Trappedinburnley (talk) 23:03, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

I've got a question for you: Do you have evidence that propaganda and disinformation is the commonly held view even in countries that are not opposed to Russia? Because if you want to make the argument that this belief is widespread, you've got to have evidence. And is it really necessary to point out that countries actively at war with Russia might be biased against Russia? When it comes to Russian issues, of course Western sources are biased against Russia. I could point you to dozens of sources, in fact here is a whole article about it: Media_portrayal_of_the_Ukrainian_crisis#Media in the United States, United Kingdom, and Canada. Masebrock (talk) 23:29, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Your "source" doesn't back-up your argument. From the bits I've read you've got Russian's and Russophile's claiming the western media is too pro-Ukraine and the Ukrainians saying it's to pro-Russian. This is the criticism you would expect for impartial media in a dispute situation. I can't find anyone suggesting that RT is being unfairly criticized? This is the last I'll be saying on the subject unless you provide some actual sources. Trappedinburnley (talk) 23:55, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

You have failed to provide evidence that these views on RT are in fact "widespread". I don't know what to say, if you can't back up your beliefs don't include them on the Misplaced Pages page. If all you have are Western sources, then it will be described as such. Masebrock (talk) 00:03, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Let me offer you an analogy. When a politically charged movie comes out, the Misplaced Pages page often includes criticism of the movie from political opponents. Lets use Sicko#Response as an example. Including criticism is normal and good. But what is also good is to say where this criticism is coming from. Instead of saying "some critics disliked this movie", it is better to say "conservative critics disliked this movie", or even better "this prominent conservative critic disliked this movie". This is a more accurate statement, and also helps clarify that some people actually like the movie. Do I really need to find evidence that conservative critics are biased against a left-leaning movie? Is mentioning that the criticism is conservative poisoning the well? You would rather leave it as "some critics disliked the movie" out of fear of implying that only conservative critics disliked the movie? Please. Masebrock (talk) 00:16, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

The lead, as it is written, violates WP:NPOV. It will be changed soon unless you have anything else to say on the subject.Masebrock (talk) 00:31, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

The lead doesn't violate WP:NPOV. I regret you're verklempt that it violates your personal point of view. Don't threaten to vandalize it under the notion of "fixing" it. VєсrumЬа ►TALK 00:40, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

It violates NPOV because every source is from Western media. This is a bias clear as day. Where is a single Russian media outlet calling RT "propaganda"? Might as well put criticism from Venezuela and Iran on the CNN lead. Don't pretend like YOUR viewpoint is the NPOV viewpoint. Masebrock (talk) 00:46, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

The Western doesn't mean biased. The relativism is. But regardless - it all boils down to WP:RS. And if the RS tilt a certain way - we have to oblige.--Galassi (talk) 01:54, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

I question whether these sources are reliable when it comes to Russia, but I recognize that I am in the minority here and will surrender this point.Masebrock (talk) 02:09, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Masebrock, you are in the minority only because this article is monitored by a small group of editors who will oppose the slightest change to its wording. If more editors had a look at the article, you would be in the majority. Your comments, though very sensible and clear, have been described as "an attempt to poison the well", "POV-pushing" and threats to "vandalize" the article. With the effect that you "surrender this point". It's a shame Γνῶθι σεαυτόν (talk) 19:13, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

@Masebrock. You tell that "the coverage is not widespread and that is my point". If that's the case, one must be able to provide alternative 3rd party sources (i.e. any RS that are not controlled by Putin's administration) which tell something different, for example, that RT TV is a highly reliable news source. Please bring them here. There are a few Russian independent news sources of course, although not too many on political subjects, given that a lot of editors-in-chief are receiving instructions from the Kremlin, directly or indirectly. But there are many sources from other countries, and it does not matter if they are "Western" or not. P.S. Which "countries actively at war with Russia" are you talking about? No one declared the war, even Ukraine. My very best wishes (talk) 22:17, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

My very best wishes, your allegation that a "lot of editors-in-chief are receiving instructions from the Kremlin, directly or indirectly" is unsubstantiated and looks like OR, at best. I therefore kindly ask you to either strike it or provide evidence. Γνῶθι σεαυτόν (talk) 15:30, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Is this good enough, or do you need more? These are among the top five in the search results.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:46, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

My very best wishes, would you truly support altering the lead section if I find reliable sources that call RT a legitimate news organization? But that hinges on them not being dismissed for "indirectly receiving orders from the Kremlin" (a bold claim needing evidence). Masebrock (talk) 04:54, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

I said a "reliable news source", not a "legitimate news organization". Of course it is legitimate in the sense it operates legally. I can't tell without looking at sources and suggested changes in text. My very best wishes (talk) 05:08, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

In January 2010, the article described RT in these terms: "RT sets out to present the Russian point of view on events in Russia and its 'near abroad' and give the viewers an opportunity to get acquainted with Russian views on world and domestic events. Margarita Simonyan, RT's editor-in-chief, says the station was born out of the desire to present an "unbiased portrait of Russia". A major part of RT's airtime is devoted to Russian and world news, but it also airs business, sports and culture news. In addition, RT features documentaries, travel shows and commentaries on present-day life in Russia and Russian history" . Is the current lead an improvement towards more neutrality? Γνῶθι σεαυτόν (talk) 15:04, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes Trappedinburnley (talk) 15:50, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Short, but revealing. Γνῶθι σεαυτόν (talk) 11:15, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

'Former Russian Officials"

Regarding in the lead, where RT is denounced by "former Russian officials". It is worth noting that according the source provided, these "officials" are in fact one person: Konstantin Preobrazhensky. And perhaps most importantly, he is a defector to the West! His bias is extremely obvious and should be mentioned, if he is to be mentioned at all. And at the very least, one person is not plural. Masebrock (talk) 00:21, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Many have left Russia, none of them are enemies of their former homeland. "Defector" indicates individuals switching sides between enemies--your very language in framing issues here indicates a potential lack of objectivity. VєсrumЬа ►TALK 00:46, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

The word "defector" was lifted directly from the source used in the lead. Please assume good faith here. Let me quote the article: link "Russia Today has been described by Konstantin Preobrazhensky, himself a former Soviet KGB officer who defected to the West" And at the very least, one person is not plural.Masebrock (talk) 00:52, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

• Kudos, Masebrock. Your comment could not make me more happy. I made the same observation almost four months ago and modified the statement to bring it in line with the source (see Revision as of 02:08, 5 August 2015). As a result, I was blocked 3 minutes later. That someone else sees that now seems to me to be an indication that there really is something there. I was perhaps not that deluded and disruptive, after all.

Volunteer Marek, I see you object to this edit. Old discussions must be revived on the current talk page, so please discuss your objections here. My primary concern is that a single person does not equal "former Russian officials". 1 ≠ 2. Therefore, the phrase "former Russian officials" is not supported by the source provided. Please voice your objections to this reasoning on the talk page. Masebrock (talk) 02:48, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

They can be revived if there's something new to be said. Not if it's gonna be the same ol' tired stuff over and over again. Volunteer Marek  03:10, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm saying something new right now: One person is not plural. Are you willing to engage in discussion? Masebrock (talk) 03:14, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

Fixed. This guy is an intelligence expert. No need to provide any other qualifiers because we have a page about him and provide the link. My very best wishes (talk) 04:25, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

• My very best wishes, this is OR and clear NPOV. In what source is he described as an intelligence expert? Not in the one provided, anyway. Γνῶθι σεαυτόν (talk) 18:32, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
• You left it in the plural, mistakenly I suppose. I fixed it. Γνῶθι σεαυτόν (talk) 18:41, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

All right, I removed "intelligence expert" (although he is the one) and changed the phrase to better reflect what source tells. My very best wishes (talk) 18:44, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

• My very best wishes, your new "fix" leaves me speechless. Allegations by Konstantin Preobrazhensky, a former KGB officer currently working with Voice of America, reported by Accuracy in Media which itself describes RT as "The international Moscow-funded propaganda network known as Russia Today (RT)" are now presented by you as facts. Do you have another independent source mentioning even the existence of "Directorate ‘A’"? Perhaps Curveball could help. Γνῶθι σεαυτόν (talk) 00:24, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

No, it does not represent anything as a fact. It tells: "It ] has also been accused of spreading disinformation...". This is just a notable accusation in a large number of sources, not a fact. P.S. "even the existence of "Directorate ‘A’?" As far as I know, Directorate A of the KGB was responsible for this, and that is precisely what RT TV does, according to the publication. To be more precise, that was not a "Directorate", but "Service" (another type of subdivision - see also here) My very best wishes (talk) 01:16, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Not "according to the publication",rather according to Konstantin Preobrazhensky. Accuracy in Media reports that "he says Russia Today television utilizes methods of propaganda that are managed by Directorate “A” of the Russian Foreign Intelligence Service. He explains, “The specialty of Directorate ‘A’ is deceiving world public opinion and manipulating it. It has got a lot of experience over decades of the Cold War.”" It is in the present tense and, as you rightly pointed out, there is no such "Directorate ‘A’", it was a "Service" in the times of the now defunct USSR. How can it manage anything today, as Mr Preobrazhensky alleges? The source itself has an extremely neutral description of RT: "RT is funded by the Moscow regime of Vladimir Putin, a former KGB officer". Why not use this impeccable description in the lead? Γνῶθι σεαυτόν (talk) 03:44, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

He tells about modern-day Foreign Intelligence Service (Russia) that still has same "Service" . One could check a lot of other sources, but they are not about RT TV. My very best wishes (talk) 05:23, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

I am aware of the existence of that Service. What worries me is that an ex-KGB officer that you describe as "the expert" on Russian intelligence can't even get the name right. It is as if an expert on Germany's armed forces referred to them as the "Wehrmacht" instead of the "Bundeswehr". In my opinion, it casts a serious doubt on his allegations, which are otherwise not supported by any other source. After your last edit, the lead now reads: "It has also been accused of spreading disinformation using methods previously developed by the KGB". This is a very strong accusation that, if founded, should be supported by unassailable evidence. Γνῶθι σεαυτόν (talk) 15:22, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

If you are "aware of the existence of that Service", why did you asked above: "Do you have another independent source mentioning even the existence of "Directorate ‘A’"? Perhaps Curveball could help."? This is not the way to conduct discussions. My very best wishes (talk) 16:58, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Simply because I am not aware of the existence of "Directorate ‘A’" and, as concerns "Service A", I can't find any independent source confirming that "The specialty of Directorate ‘A’ is deceiving world public opinion and manipulating it". As you seem to be more knowledgeable than Mr Preobrazhensky, who can't even get the name right, I have no doubt that you will be able to provide a reliable source confirming this. Γνῶθι σεαυτόν (talk) 17:33, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Here are a few more sources on the KGB issue Trappedinburnley (talk) 17:47, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

With all due respect, I can't find any mention of "Directorate ‘A’" in the sources you provide, which are mostly op-ed articles anyway. Γνῶθι σεαυτόν (talk) 17:57, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

@Trappedinburnley. Oh, yes. According to first source , During the conflict over Ukraine, disseminating “a Russian point of view” has increasingly meant helping Russian military and intelligence operations. For example, after Moscow-supported rebels in East Ukraine shot down a Malaysian Airlines jet in July, RT spat out a multitude of conspiracy theories ... in order to direct attention away from the real perpetrators. ...Some of these tricks smack of an updated model of Active Measures, the Soviet era KGB-run disinformation and psychological warfare department designed to confuse and disorganize the West. Active Measures employed an estimated 15,000 agents at the height of the Cold War, part of whose brief was to place forgeries in international media.. This is another RS telling exactly the same what Preobrazhensky said about RT TV. I am sure there are many more RS telling the same. My very best wishes (talk) 19:32, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

• Can you not reconcile yourself with the fact that the Soviet Union has been dead for almost 25 years now? You might as well keep ranting against Ivan the Terrible. What's the point? Anyway, your comment is filled with unsubstantiated accusations which have no place in an encyclopaedia. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Γνῶθι σεαυτόν (talk) 20:43, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

• If indeed there are "many sources that support the statement" that RT is "using methods previously developed by the KGB", by all means, cite them. Otherwise, it is an unsubstantiated claim and, as such, should be removed, and should not have been inserted in the article in the first place. Γνῶθι σεαυτόν (talk) 20:47, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

All right. An additional RS (quoted above) was included. My very best wishes (talk) 22:48, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunately the new source is no better than the previous one. For example, it has been criticised by the watchdog group Media Matters for America for its bias. As for Peter Pomerantsev, he is hardly more neutral than Konstantin Preobrazhensky. The latter is an ex KGB officer who wrote a book titled "KGB/FSB's New Trojan Horse: Americans of Russian Descent", while the former thinks that Russia is a "post-modern dictatorship", and deems that "we’re all Putin’s ‘useful idiots’" I think it would be preferable to have more neutral sources, or drop the allegation altogether. Γνῶθι σεαυτόν (talk) 00:07, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

So, you think that SVR does not recruit anyone in US (that is what the book by Preobrazhensky was about, and it was written well before these events) and that modern Russia is not a dictatorship. This is fine, but irrelevant. My very best wishes (talk) 00:31, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

As you correctly point out, what I think, or what you think for that matter, is irrelevant. What is relevant however is that Pomerantsev claims that Russia is a "post-modern dictatorship". This is enough to disqualify him as a neutral source, and the same goes for Preobrazhensky. If I were to read that CNN "has also been accused of spreading disinformation, using methods developed by the CIA", citing as a source a man who has written in the press "Is freedom under attack in the United States? Is there a threat of dictatorship in the United States? I believe the answer to both of these questions is 'Yes!", I would feel just as uneasy. Not because I am a US stooge, but rather because it undermines the credibility of Misplaced Pages. You might say, who cares? Well, I do. Because I am convinced that the dissemination of knowledge is of cardinal importance, and Misplaced Pages is an essential tool for achieving that goal. Γνῶθι σεαυτόν (talk) 04:48, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

"This is enough to disqualify him as a neutral source" - this is just plain incorrect. I have no idea where you pulled this out of. Volunteer Marek  16:03, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• Very simple. Anyone is entitled to say that the way the European Union operates is not very democratic. However, if someone were to say that the EU is a "post-modern dictatorship", such an overblown statement would totally disqualify him, in my eyes at least. A respectable encyclopedia cannot present conspiracy theory as fact. Γνῶθι σεαυτόν (talk) 01:09, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

@Γνῶθι σεαυτόν, by your logic, anything good about RT or Russia would be equally biased and inadmissible as article content. Your defense of proper expression is a thinly veiled attempt at suppression of criticism. Russia did invade and annex territory of a sovereign neighbor, so there is some leeway to consider a negative opinion of Russia as factually objective. Agreement or disagreement with the policies and actions of a political state is not a litmus test for bias for said expression. VєсrumЬа ►TALK 05:25, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

I don't think it needs to be said that a negative opinion of Russia is not a neutral POV. If you are editing as if a negative opinion of Russia is NPOV, then that is going to cause some problems. Masebrock (talk) 06:32, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Ummm, no. Please read WP:NPOV. A negative of opinion of something does not make a source non-neutral. That would be ridiculous. Volunteer Marek  16:04, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Not so. WP:NPOV "means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." If a person/country/RT TV/whatever was described "negatively" in a vast majority of RS, it must be described "negatively" per WP:NPOV. My very best wishes (talk) 13:51, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

A negative view of Russia is not NPOV, because not all significant reliable sources describe Russia negatively. Saying that all reliable sources describe Russia negatively is a extraordinarily bold claim, needing extraordinary evidence. That is the sort of claim that needs to be determined with the larger consensus of Misplaced Pages. You can't just go editing as if a negative views of Russia was neutral and saying that everyone already agrees with you. Masebrock (talk) 17:05, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

I said if - just to explain the policy. Actually, telling that someone holds a negative/positive view with regard to country X is absurd until one defines what the negative/positive view was. The idea of NPOV is to fairly summarize what RS tell on the subject, whatever they might tell and whatever you think might be "positive" or "negative". My very best wishes (talk) 19:30, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Let's get back to the question at hand, which is whether the views held about RT by US and UK media outlets are widespread enough to not require identification of the source of the statements in the text. The way I see it, until we see the views from sources that are widespread (i.e. not just former cold war enemies), these statements represent only a selected viewpoint, and should be identified as such. It is not that the BBC, NYT, ect. are unreliable, it is that they represent a specific viewpoint that other places in the world do not share. Masebrock (talk) 06:40, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes Vecrumba, "anything good about RT or Russia would be equally biased and inadmissible". It is not the business of an encyclopedia to pass judgement. Another very serious problem is that of sources. The fact that an opinion is widely held (which is not the case for Russia being a dictatorship) does not allow one to include it as fact. Sometimes it does not even allow one to mention it at all, or then, only with great prudence and careful attribution. For example, if the article Geology stated about the age of the earth that "a majority of Americans believes that the earth is 6000 years old" would you agree, even though this is true? In my view, that may be good enough for Conservapedia, not for Misplaced Pages. Γνῶθι σεαυτόν (talk) 14:45, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

This article contains dozens of independent sources that meet WP:RS, all essentially saying that RT makes up the news. Given RT's tiny viewer numbers, this would IMO certainly imply a widely-held view. You two have brought zero sources to these discussions that would support a counter argument of any kind. Thus far this has been almost entirely a waste of time. Trappedinburnley (talk) 15:59, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Masebrock, unless you bring some sources to the table to back up your assertions, there really is no point in discussing this. This is WP:NOTAFORUM for discussing politics. Volunteer Marek  16:06, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

I have not been discussing politics anywhere in this talk page. I have not made any assertions that need sources! Are you even reading my posts? I'm am saying that the assertions on the RT page are not justified by the sources provided, because these sources are not widespread. Masebrock (talk) 17:26, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• If people want to make any changes that do not cause objections by majority of contributors here, that's fine. However, if you want to write something that goes against consensus currently existing on the page (as appears in this case), please start new section, write exactly the entire text you want to include with supporting refs, and wait for a few days to allow others to comment. My very best wishes (talk) 16:13, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• My very best wishes, your last piece of advice would be better if it were addressed at all editors uniformly. I can't help feeling uneasy when I read some of the comments above. They sound to me like an attempt to WP:POV railroad Masebrock. But then, my poor judgement is legendary. Γνῶθι σεαυτόν (talk) 17:14, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• Trappedinburnley, you must be aware that it is almost impossible to prove a negative. Can you find sources to support the claim that CNN does not "make up the news"? In the same way, Saddam Hussein found it very hard to prove he did not have WMD. Γνῶθι σεαυτόν (talk) 17:14, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• My very best wishes, you aver above that Misplaced Pages should "summarize what RS tell on the subject, whatever they might tell". This is a fundamental point of disagreement between us. An encyclopaedia is not a press summary. Diderot and d'Alembert would be horrified to read your implicit definition of what our task should be. Encyclopedists should not be scribes. Γνῶθι σεαυτόν (talk) 20:22, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Alright lets make this simple. There is no conceivable argument that could be made to convince me that this article shouldn't have a statement in the lead section that mentions the accusations against RT. This is because I can turn on my TV at any time and quickly be reminded how correct the accusations are. The sources used in this article cover most major English speaking news organizations on earth, and if it ever looks like they are not sufficient to establish a widespread view, I will just go and find more. However if somebody one day produces enough RS to show there is an widespread alternative viewpoint I will listen to suggestions for including it. Trappedinburnley (talk) 22:12, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• Trappedinburnley, you could have opposed the same argument to Galileo Galilei 350 years ago. It is obvious to anyone who has ever seen the light of day that the sun orbits the earth, and not the other way around. And if the earth moved, should we not feel the movement? Who was right Simplicio or Galileo? It depends on the point of view. If you are a denizen of the earth, going about his day to day business, the simplest and safest assumption is that the sun orbits the earth. Now, if you want to explain the motion of Foucault's Pendulum within the framework of the Ptolemaic system, you will encounter some difficulties and you will soon find that Heliocentrism is much better. Some contrarians might then say that even that is false. The fact of the matter is that truth is elusive. It is a direction, rather than a place. You might say that this is an overbloated rant, considering the subject at hand, and I would agree with you. What I am trying to point out awkwardly is that, while I agree that RT is biased, I don't think that its bias is of another order of magnitude than the one we find in the western media. Γνῶθι σεαυτόν (talk) 23:17, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Oh please, RT is not Galileo. It's just a clumsy though well funded propaganda channel, not some martyr for truth. How about we drop the false analogies?  Volunteer Marek  23:57, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

No need to ascribe to me false analogies that I never made. I was just cautioning that truth is very elusive. What Galileo sounded like nonsense to every reasonable person of his time, and for very good reasons. I just wanted to caution editors to think twice before saying that nothing can make them change their mind, not draw a comparison between RT and Galileo. I may be crazy, but not to such an extent. Γνῶθι σεαυτόν (talk) 00:52, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

I find your statement to be quite reasonable Trappedinburnley, and I completely agree with you that enough significant RS have called RT propaganda that it warrants mention in the lead. I do suspect there is a sizable alternative viewpoint, but I am not well equipped to navigate non-English media outlets to be able to find it. Masebrock (talk) 23:56, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Isn't RT pretty much the same as Voice of America? --62.154.197.99 (talk) 08:41, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Masebrock, do you support keeping "It has also been accused of spreading disinformation using methods previously developed by the KGB" in the lead? In my opinion, such biased and unfounded accusations are harmful to Misplaced Pages, not to RT. Γνῶθι σεαυτόν (talk) 10:51, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps this should be rephrased, however using propaganda as a part of active measures is nothing special, but something always practicied in the Soviet Union and Russia. My very best wishes (talk) 14:35, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Γνῶθι σεαυτόν, I think the criticisms are common enough to be appropriate for the lead, but I support clarifying that there is a widely held alternative viewpoint. Something along the lines of the Voice of America page "Some scholars and commentators consider the Voice of America to be a form of propaganda, although this label is disputed by others". The only problem is I don't know how to find the appropriate "others" sources. Like you said earlier, it's easy to find someone saying a source is unreliable, its hard to find someone making the case that a source is reliable. Especially when those sources are deep in Russian and Spanish language news outlets. Masebrock (talk) 17:32, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Masebrock, while I agreed above that the news coverage on RT is slanted, I am yet to see outright fabrications in it (unlike in NYT, where the possession of WMD by Iraq was (in)famously presented as fact). The problem lies rather with the general tone of the channel and the relative weight it gives to different issues (for example, now that a Russian jet has been downed by Turkey, they are constantly talking about the absence of press freedom in that country (which is a fact), whereas I can't remember they were very vocal on this subject before. In this regard, rather than with Voice of America, which is a relic of the cold war, RT could me more accurately compared with CNN or France 24. In any case, unless there is rock solid evidence, I strongly oppose the inclusion of the claim that it "uses methods previously developed by the KGB" in the lead. Not because it makes RT look bad but because it makes Misplaced Pages look bad. Γνῶθι σεαυτόν (talk) 20:47, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

• Actually, this is all your unsourced personal opinion. In brief, the modern Russian state-controlled TV in general (not only RT TV) differs from Western news outlets in the following aspects: (a) this is not journalism, but propaganda, (b) just like Soviet propaganda, it creates the entire Universe of falsehoods which is different from actual reality; (c) it promotes hatred towards other nations and indoctrinates people with wrong moral values (whatever the Ruler does is "good"), in addition to providing disinformation, and so on. This is nothing new, but a huge subject that was described in numerous books and writings by experts, including Russian political scientists. That kind of "news" to present black as white was mocked by artists, even in Russia. Once again, if you want to change something in particular, please post new suggested version of the text below and wait for comments by others. P.S. Why do you continue arguing about "KGB methods" if I removed this phrase already? My very best wishes (talk) 23:18, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

• This is not the place for personal quarrel. We should all strive to improve the article, which is in a woeful state. In this regard, I congratulate you for finally realising how inappropriate the "KGB methods" allegation was. However, since you assert in an appropriately moderate tone that RT "creates the entire Universe of falsehoods which is different from actual reality", allow me to remind you that it is not Putin who said "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out", it is Karl Rove. As things stand, the article is in need of a complete overhaul. It is a wholesale attack on a news channel, the like of which I have not seen in any other version of Misplaced Pages, at least in the languages I understand. Γνῶθι σεαυτόν (talk) 01:41, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

This is your personal opinion, not supported by other editors of this page.--Ymblanter (talk) 06:37, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

• Ymblanter, This is not an opinion, it is a fact. If you have evidence of fabrications by RT, please provide them. Γνῶθι σεαυτόν (talk) 13:56, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Well, you know, this is the behavior you have been blocked for in the past, and you will be indeffed again in the near future. This is not a way to collaboratively write down an encyclopedia. You have built a straw man and now building up walls of text to fight with it. The piece you do not like - about disinformation - is sourced beyond any reasonable limit (because people before you, mostly paid editors, required references to every word, and we provided references to every word). At this point, consensus is that it should be in the lede. If there is smth more in the article you do not like, please make sure it has not been discussed at least three times on this page, then open a new discussion and try to reach consensus. So far, all your attempts to reach consensus failed miserably. Ans I assume you know what happens to editors who systematically edit against consensus.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:17, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Although I will not be able to find any "reliable sources" that state that this wiki page is "a wholesale attack on a news channel", it is pretty evident that it is. And no, Marek, I am not a sock puppet of the user above. --62.154.197.99 (talk) 09:37, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Uh... thanks for making that clear, I guess?  Volunteer Marek  19:22, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

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