Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 21:27, 21 December 2015

The project page associated with this talk page is an official policy on Misplaced Pages. Policies have wide acceptance among editors and are considered a standard for all users to follow. Please review policy editing recommendations before making any substantive change to this page. Always remember to keep cool when editing, and don't panic.

This is not the page to report problems to administrators or request blocks.
	This page is for discussion of the Misplaced Pages:Blocking policy itself. Report incidents such as block evasion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. Report violations of the three-revert rule at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring. Report active, persistent vandals at Misplaced Pages:Administrator intervention against vandalism.

See WP:PROPOSAL for Misplaced Pages's procedural policy on the creation of new guidelines and policies. See how to contribute to Misplaced Pages guidance for recommendations regarding the creation and updating of policy and guideline pages.

The contents of the Misplaced Pages:GlobalBlocking page were merged into Misplaced Pages:Blocking policy on October 18, 2012. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page.

Archives

Index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 21, 22, 23, 24

This page has archives. Sections older than 60 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present.

Evidence tampering

SPI pages have a section for evidence to be adduced by those alleged to be sockpuppets. It should be obvious that evidence submitted prior to the determination of the case is validly posted, and not to be deleted on the ground of block evasion. However, some editors have been doing just that. Should the blocking policy be amended to make it clear that this is not allowed? 86.134.217.107 (talk) 10:04, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

No it should not. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:40, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Privacy VPN blocks

I noticed I can't edit when I have PIA VPN running, even when logged in. It seems somewhat counterproductive to turn on SSL globally in order to enhance privacy, and then to block the use of privacy VPNs even for logged in users. Is this an exceptional instance, or do we have an actual policy somewhere to block privacy VPNs even for logged in users? Gigs (talk) 01:30, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

This is a bit stale, Gigs, but I doubt this is policy, or even an intended effect. I suspect this is an unintended collision of software, and I would raise it at WP:VPT if it is still going on. Or it might be intended from the other side. A VPN I use does prevent me from accessing some sites, although not Misplaced Pages. I don't know anything about the PIA VPN, but it might somehow block the URLs associated with editing. DES 13:14, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

I know we have blocked their particular ranges due to 'multi-account' abuse from both registered and unregistered users. The point has always been written in policy: "Open or anonymising proxies ... may be blocked". When you use an anonymising VPN, you're usually sharing the same IP addresses as banned users and vandals. -- zzuuzz 08:31, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

I understand there's practical issues with socks and such. It just seems that there's an intractable conflict between real privacy and any hope of actually enforcing blocks and against socks, and we'll eventually be forced to decide which way to go with it. Gigs (talk) 00:53, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

We do have the IP block exemption userright. It allows logged in users with the right to use IPs that are otherwise blocked. HighInBC 03:38, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, I just got that right added. Perhaps we should look at some kind of super-autoconfirmed that grants that automatically. one year old accounts with 1000 edits or something. Gaijin42 (talk) 20:44, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

I don't think that is a good idea. IPBE is granted to users who have a demonstrable need for it, on a case-by-case basis. Trying to get around the Great Firewall or something like that is a good reason. "Because I want to" is not. It's better if an actual human admin looks at the circumstances and makes a determination based on the actual reason it is needed. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:05, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Not here not policy

WP:NOTHERE is not policy, and clearly says at the top "where something is inconsistent with this essay, please defer to those. " Although too often use as a block "reason," it's generally associated with WP:DE blocks (which are a behavioral guideline). NE Ent 01:23, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

It is used all the time as a blocking rationale, Ent. Admins even link the damned thing in the block rationales. I point out that this wrong all the time but nobody listens. There's no reason to revert as you did. Doc talk 01:27, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

The section is titled "Common rationales for blocks" not "common policies upon which blocks are based." Requiring that it be a policy is an arbitrary condition that appears to have just been made up on the spot. The reason it is often cited in block rationales (as I mentioned in my summary) is that is actually one of the pre-written rationales right in the dropdown menu in in the blocking module so it seems weird to bar it from being mentioned here. Beeblebrox (talk) 01:33, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Where is the source of the blocking model? NE Ent 01:39, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

^ What he said. It is a commonly used rationale for blocks. To pretend that it isn't because it's technically shaky (IMHO) doesn't mean it is not a common rationale used to block editors. Doc talk 02:41, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Policy reflects practice as much as it dictates it. The reality is that people get blocked for not being here to write an encyclopedia all the time. I think it reasonable that the policy warn people of that fact. HighInBC 03:54, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

I agree with everyone who wants to keep it as a blocking rationale in the policy. It's not only used and is in the blocking form and block notice. It's used frequently.--Bbb23 (talk) 04:47, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Agreed as it's a very accurate listing detailing why many editors are blocked. --NeilN 05:43, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

The discussion is whether to add it, not keep it. And it's not actually policy; we don't actually block folks for things they don't do, we block them for things they do. Consider "Mary & Slater-4eva," created 2007. Clearly "not here" to build an encyclopedia , yet no one going to block them. If there's some interface that lists "NOTHERE" as reason, the solution is to fix the software, not make up a policy reason that doesn't really exist. NE Ent 10:37, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

You don't have to go far back at all in the list of active blocks to see how often it is used as a rationale.,,,, ad infinitum. So the genie has been out of the bottle for some time. Right or wrong, it's time for the policy to mention the fact. Doc talk 10:54, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

There seems to be support for adding it. The trouble with some of Misplaced Pages's very concise shortcuts is that they don't fully convey the meaning of the document behind it. There's an important difference between being "here for some other purpose" and not being here at all. Burninthruthesky (talk) 11:10, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Your cherry picking of one editor from 2008 makes absolutely no sense. And yes, we block users for "Narrow self interest and/or promotion", "Focusing on Misplaced Pages as a social networking site", "General pattern of disruptive behavior", "Treating editing as a battleground" etc. --NeilN 13:24, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Can someone please list here all rationales which are hinted by software? Is, as NeilN says, we are blocking for "Focusing on Misplaced Pages as a social networking site" etc, then we have a dangerous mismatch between Misplaced Pages and Wikimedia. Of course, it may be a nitpicking, but some hate this "Wiki P/M Wheel War". Yes, the police follows practice, but the keyword here is "follows". If something becomes a common practice, time to see whether it is a common misuse or a hint to policy update. Staszek Lem (talk) 01:20, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

Staszek Lem, there is no "dangerous mismatch". There is no "wheel war". The WMF does not dictate the reasons for blocking. The rationales closely follow this list. --NeilN 01:36, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

• The complete dropdown menu of 40 or so common rationales is at MediaWiki:Ipbreason-dropdown. It looks like NOTHERE was added about 16 months ago (in response to the many admins who were already manually using it as a block summary), there was a brief discussion on the talk page, and it was decided to keep it. Like all MediaWiki pages it is permanently protected to stop people from rushing in and messing it up without a consensus to do so, so please make sure you have a consensus to remove it before seeking to change that. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:03, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

• The problem is this reason encourages lazy or sloppy administrating. I'm guilty of having used it a few times without thinking. When blocking, specifics should be provided with a citation to policy or a guideline. WP:NOTHERE includes a bunch of stuff that isn't blockable. It's too easy to look at an account you don't like and say "not here" and block it. What's wrong with giving a specific reason: vandalism, sneaky vandalism, edit warring, creating hoaxes, improper username, WP:POINT, WP:DE or something else specific? The problem with "not here" is that it presumes to judge the user's motive. What we really need to do is block for their actions, regardless of motive. Jehochman 22:54, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Please list the "bunch of stuff that isn't blockable." --NeilN 22:58, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
  • I think all the bullets at WP:NOTHERE are good reasons for blocking, provided you've attempted to explain the issue to the user yet they continue with disruptive behaviour – to a degree that we can definitely say the user is "not here to contribute". Any admin who is just blocking users without any real reason is just being a poor administrator, the little dropdown of presupplied block summaries is not to blame, nor do they govern what the valid reasons for blocking are.I also use this summary for when the account is not vandalism-only, but deserving of an indefinite block. For instance, if they make a few good edits to disguise their trolling or other obvious disruption, particularly when there's an extensive filter log indicative of abuse. "Disruptive editing" of course can work just as well, but it does not imply an indefinite block. This use case for me is for newer accounts and not for controversial blocks, where you might want to give more specific rationale — MusikAnimal 23:03, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
    • Another example: trolls participating in 4chan/reddit attacks get a NOTHERE block after they pop up with their first edit. --NeilN 23:09, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
    • Also "disruptive editing" and "vandalism" blocks may be a result of specific edits, where NOTHERE can be more fitting when blocking for an overall behaviourial issue. In the end it's at the discretion of the administrator, and any good admin will use NOTHERE where appropriate and not leave the user unaware of why they were blocked, or have other admins questioning it. The keyword I think is that the user is clearly not here, such that others will agree — MusikAnimal 23:18, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
      • WP:DE nutshell: "Disruptive editors may be blocked or banned indefinitely." I've observed blocks labeled "not here" for at least a year or two -- whenever I look into the circumstances it's generally actually been disruptive editing or personal attacks. Complaining to a blocking admin that they made a reasonable block but recorded the wrong reason struck me as pointlessly bureaucratic, so I never worried about it. NE Ent 00:18, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
        • Why are we using blobs? An administrator blocks for one day for alleged "block evasion". Another administrator, whose motive is to punish the editor for being good at her job, comes along and increases that by 5,800%. He needs a reason for doing that, but as she is blameless doesn't have one. He therefore synthesises a reason, "continued abuse", which is not permitted under policy and rightly so. Should the policy be amended to make it clear that administrators who use these weasel words are guilty of abuse of the tools? 217.41.38.76 (talk) 02:20, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
          • No, the policy should not be amended. If there are concerns about a particular block, WP:AN would be the proper forum. NE Ent 02:29, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
            • And banned editors don't get to raise concerns. --NeilN 03:20, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
• The WP:NOTHERE page has a list with a preamble, "Indications that a user clearly may not be here to build an encyclopedia include." When blocking, I think we should cite the specific reason, not point to a vague list. Some items on the list are not block worthy, such as "Interest in gaining as many rights or "flags" as possible" If we blocked for that, I could indef @Kirill Lokshin: or @AGK: right now, for example. It also lists "Narrow self interest and/or promotion" and mentions WP:SPA. Many new editors appear to have a narrow focus or start out with self promotion. Last I checked, we don't block single purpose accounts unless they are disruptive. There are really only two basic reasons to block: (1) damaging articles, and (2) severely annoying other users. In the block tool interface we list a bunch of different flavors of those two basic violations. Why then do we need to list "NotHere", which is less specific than either of the two basic reasons to block? Let's be specific. Jehochman 03:03, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
  • "I could indef Kirill Lokshin or AGK right now, for example." <- no common sense. "Blocking a 4chan troll as they're not here to improve the encyclopedia" <- common sense. Admins are supposed to possess a healthy measure of common sense. --NeilN 03:24, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
    • Admins are humans, and humans are biased. We've all seen admins abuse their powers, and we've all seen admins get tossed out. Popularizing the usage of the highly interpretive and vague NOTHERE rationale instead of the more concrete reasons that Jehochman suggests is really fostering a rationale that is more likely to be improperly applied/abused/misinterpreted. It's a slippery slope. Doc talk 08:35, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
      • I find WP:NOTHERE a lot more descriptive and clear than disruptive editing. Which admins have been tossed for abusing WP:NOTHERE? Or is this a fix to a non-existent problem? --NeilN 14:17, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
    • No, I meant that we've all seen admins tossed from the project (for various reasons), so not all admins can always automatically be trusted implicitly to do the right thing because admins are not infallible by default. Especially when there's extra "wiggle room" to block users. I never meant to imply that any admin has been tossed, or even disciplined, for NOTHERE usage. This is an example of how generalizations can be misunderstood! NOTHERE is not policy, and it's rife for misinterpretation. The only other information page that admins should(?) use for a block rationale here appears to be VOA, which is directly tied to a policy. All other rationales are either guidelines or policy. NOTHERE starts out with "A major pillar of Misplaced Pages is that editors are here purely to build an encyclopedia". So... what "major pillar" is that?! It doesn't even make sense, which is why it is not policy.

    There's also this: if anything, admins should link to WP:NOT instead of NOTHERE. Why? Because that is actually policy! Not some information page. Doc talk 14:43, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

    • • The pillar is WP:5P4 which incorporates WP:AGF. And admins can use customized reasons when blocking if appropriate. WP:NOTHERE is one of them. Of course, they have to defend their reason if asked. --NeilN 15:21, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
    • The 4th pillar WP:CIV has nothing in that policy that states "editors are here purely to build an encyclopedia". Looking at the history of the page I see that no one pillar is actually referenced from the very creation of the article at all. It's always been just a link to WP:5P. Seems pretty vague. Apparently it's just been blindly accepted that this "major pillar" concerning editors "purely to build an encyclopedia" actually exists. Doc talk 15:49, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

I frequently post a block notice on a user's talk page which says something like "you have been blocked because you are clearly here not to contribute to the encyclopaedia, but rather in order to..." and then goes on to give further details. In many situations, I regard that as more helpful than just saying "You are blocked because you are not here to contribute to the encyclopaedia", unless prior existing context makes it clear what the more detailed reason is. That is exactly analogous to what applies in the case of most other block reasons: "You have been blocked for edit-warring on such and such an article in such and such circumstances" is better than just "You have been blocked for edit-warring", unless previous messages make the details unambiguous already. However, frequently the essential reason for a block is that the editor's purpose here is something other than contributing to the encyclopaedia. Typically, an editor comes here for some unsuitable purpose (such as using Misplaced Pages to publish his or her own made-up fictitious country, or using a user page as a blog), he or she is politely told that doing so is not what Misplaced Pages is for, he or she persists, is told again more firmly, persists again, and is then blocked. It seems to me that in such a situation he or she is being blocked substantially because he or she is here not to contribute to the encyclopaedia, but rather for some other purpose, and that being so, it makes sense to say so in the block log. Very often, none of the other common reasons quite fits, so if administrators were forbidden to give that as a block reason, granted that a block log rationale has to be fairly short and concise, the result would be that often a less accurate, and possibly misleading, reason, would be given. I don't agree that every blocking rationale needs to link to a policy, but I do agree that in some ways linking to the page WP:NOTHERE is not ideal. However, whether we should link to that page is a quite separate issue from whether it is reasonable to give "not being here to contribute to the encyclopaedia" as a reason for blocking. I agree with NeilN that not being here to contribute to the encyclopaedia is a clearer reason than the extremely vague "disruptive editing".

As I have attempted to indicate above, there are situations in which not being here to contribute is the essential reason for a block. Since being here for a purpose other than contributing to the encyclopaedia is frequently the most natural reason for a block, it is therefore reasonable for administrators to block for that reason. Moreover, whether people in this discussion agree that it is reasonable or not, it is in fact one of "the most common rationales for blocks", so it makes sense that it should be included in the list of "Common rationales for blocks". We don't have to link to WP:NOTHERE if consensus is against doing so, and certainly I am far from persuaded that doing so is a good idea. Just adding some wording such as "Not being here to contribute to the encyclopaedia", perhaps with a sentence or so clarifying it, would be reasonable. For those who think that every block should refer to a policy, the objection that "not here to contribute" is not a policy would then be answered, because it would be included in the blocking policy. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 16:12, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

The block reason isn't the "not here", because we don't block users for what they haven't done; we block them for what they actually do. The reason to block should be stated as "You did X" where X is against a policy or guideline. The "Not here" statement is a fine preamble when giving an explanation, but it alone is not sufficient to justify a block. Words matter. We shouldn't have a template reason that is insufficient without further explanation; it could encourage less experienced admins to block too quickly and without sufficient rationale. Jehochman 16:26, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

"Editors must be able to relax collegially together. There is a level of divergence of fundamental attitudes, whether in editing or to the project as a whole, at which this may not be reasonable to expect." This little gem apparently describes editors who are NOTHERE due to their "major or irreconcilable conflict of attitude or intention". NOTHERE is actually far more vague than DE. It's just an essay that rehashes WP:NOT, DE, NPOV and other policies and guidelines. Those original sources should be cited. Doc talk 17:13, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

• @Jehochman: I have no objection to being blocked on those grounds, but do try to make the block coincide with my next holiday :-). AGK 23:48, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Motion to temporarily disable

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

re: The rationales closely follow this list. - The template was created by user:Black Kite in June 2014. Now, where is the discussion to add a block template which is not based on policy? Blocking is a serious issue to expand the scope without discussion. I suggest to disable this option ASAP, since the discussion clearly shows there is no consensus yet.

So far there are equally valid arguments from both sides:

Staszek Lem (talk) 19:04, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

It was quickly withdrawn. Staszek Lem (talk)

Obviously oppose. No examples of abuse have been given and probably thousands of blocks have been given out using this reason. This is not an expansion of blocking reasons. --NeilN 19:12, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

• re: "This is not an expansion" - please cite the policy for this blocking reason. Staszek Lem (talk) 20:07, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
• re: "thousands of blocks have been given" - then make it into the policy, after the community discussion, which is[REDACTED] way of operation Staszek Lem (talk) 20:07, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
• re: "No examples of abuse have been given" - so you are suggesting to wait until shit hits the fan. While I agree the probability is low, the consequences usually cost several man-months of active wikipedians. Staszek Lem (talk) 20:10, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

• Right in this policy: "Blocks are used to prevent damage or disruption to Misplaced Pages." Also note, "The following are some of the most common rationales for blocks." Some, not only.
• This is not an extension of policy. Admins may give out blocking reasons other than the ones listed, as noted in the point above.
• As I suggested above, a fix in search of a problem. --NeilN 20:20, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
  • re "Some, not only" - Of course, an admin may block for anything xe sees a disruption. But in this case xe must be diligent to explain xis reason, to avoid bickering. But putting a canned rationale into a drop-down list means some kind of community endorsement, which I see improper without community discussion. And after such discussion, the rationnale is to be added on the list of "some, not only". Staszek Lem (talk) 20:33, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
  • re "to prevent damage or disruption" - as we see, the discussed essay has some items questioned, while some others are already covered elsewhere. Staszek Lem (talk) 20:37, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

• I don't think anyone in this discussion is on their very first day of Misplaced Pages editing, but just in case, I would explain that when practices change policies and processes are adapted to the change, not used to shut down the change.

TLDR version: policies are descriptive not postcriptive.

I realize that this fundamental concept which underlays how WP works has not been out in the forefront in this age of insistence on blnd obedience to "teh rulez" but how this happened is exactly how it is supposed to work here and insisting it be undone a year and a half later because an extremely small minority don't like how it came to be added is exactly how it is not supposed to work. Also, by my read we do have a consensus. Unanimity would be nice, but anyone can see that the bulk of particpants in thsi discussion support the inclusion of NOTHERE as a standard blocking rationale. Even if removed, you would need to get a consensus absolutely banning it as a reasson for blocking or admins could still just type in "NOTHERE" in about one second anyway. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:46, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Being here to create an encyclopedia is the basis of the entire project. People were being blocked for not being here to write an encyclopedia before we even had a term for it. It was not new in 2006 and it is not new now. HighInBC 20:52, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

RfC about WP:NOTHERE

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Whether WP:NOTHERE must be included among the suggested rationales in the policy. I hate to be such a stubborn person, but I genuinely believe that the matter of policy change should not be in the hands of 2-3 a handful of regulars, even if they are 90% right. See also the discussion in #Not here not policy. Staszek Lem (talk) 21:20, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

• Maybe your method of counting differs from mine, but what I see in the above discussion is 2-3 people who want it removed, and 7-8 who say it should stay. I'm also not sure why you chose to hide the discussion you just opened and start anew one on the exact same subject. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:25, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Sorry, my 2-3 was an exaggeration. I should have been less flippant here. And btw I want it fixed, not removed; that's why I hid the previous thread, because I was convinced I was wrong. Staszek Lem (talk) 22:33, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
• Not sure if anyone was proposing a policy change? It's just a matter of justifying usage of a particular block summary. The block summary is a text field that I can write anything in, the policy doesn't restrict what I can put in there to certain phrases or wording. All of the bullets at WP:NOTHERE if persistent will eventually lead to a block. Whether you want to use NOTHERE or some other block summary I believe is the subject of the debate — MusikAnimal 21:35, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Actually, yes, the text of policy was changed. Staszek Lem (talk) 02:45, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
• Agree with MusikAnimal. This is not a policy change. --NeilN 21:38, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
  • It is the suggested change of the text of the policy. Staszek Lem (talk) 02:45, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
• note to Beeblebrox, I did un-collapse/un-hide since your original comment. Staszek, new people coming in via the RfC should be able to see on first blush the discussion that led to this. — Ched :  ?  21:53, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
  • And I collapsed it back, because the "first blush" is mentioned in the RFC statement, and my suggestion was purely technical issue I was convinced to be invalid. Staszek Lem (talk) 02:45, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
    • And I uncollapsed it again. It contains relevant discussion as some of us feel this RFC is also based on an invalid assumption. --NeilN 13:39, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
• I tend to think that people are overlooking the form of this page, and that adding a whole new section for this rationale, with a rather strange short description linking to an essay, looks a bit, well, weird. That is all. -- zzuuzz 21:58, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

I don't think that's really the issue here. How it is presented could probably be done better. However, what is being proposed here is not just that it not be mentioned on the policy page, but that it be removed entirely from the drop-down list of block reasons and that it be disallowed as a block rationale entirely. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:25, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Well we know the part about policy and practice. But really this addition seems to look out of place and totally lack information; it probably should be presented better. -- zzuuzz 22:29, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose We don't actually block folks for things they don't do, we block them for things they do. Consider "Mary & Slater-4eva," created 2007. Clearly "not here" to build an encyclopedia , yet no one going to block them. If the fact that some admins have been using the wrong blocking reason is important to folks, it can be removed from the applicable interfaces, and we can go trout them if they say "NOTHERE." NE Ent 22:13, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Um...uh.. what? Let's start with the fact that your weird, out-of-the-blue example predates the creation of the NOTHERE page. So there's that. And not being here to build an encyclopedia is determination based on the user's actions, or what they have done. Because they have done things that indicate their purpose here is not to build and maintain an encylopedia. This is just a nonsense argument, backed up by a nonsense example. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:18, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

"determination based on the user's actions" -- so why is it so difficult to simply describe those actions when blocking? NE Ent 22:59, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

• Didn't we just have this discussion? Seemed to be a clear outcome to me. I don't think that closing the previous discussion and starting another is going to give you a different answer.

To be clear I still support the inclusion of WP:NOTHERE in the list of common block reasons. This isn't new policy, this is a description of existing practices. The reason this is not new policy is because there is no requirement that a reason be listed in this policy to be actionable. HighInBC 22:21, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

re: "Didn't we just have this discussion?" Please read my rationale of the RfC. Staszek Lem (talk) 22:33, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

• Comment I see some people say "This is not a policy change". If you want to split hairs then please notice that this RfC is abut a non-trivial change of the text of the policy. Staszek Lem (talk) 22:30, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose until the page WP:NOTHERE promoted to the status of the guideline. I cannot accept the fact the admins base their actions on an essay which contains some questionable advice. Staszek Lem (talk) 22:42, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
• If I didn't understand how Misplaced Pages works (or should I say doesn't work?), I would ask why are we going in circles here? Seems like the same editors are repeating the same arguments and the same "votes". Doesn't it wear you out (down?)? Can we block Staszek Lem for WP:IDHT? The answer per some editors is no because that's not something Staszek Lem did but something they didn't do. You can go back to your interminable discussion now.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:55, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Please read and understand what the purpose of the RfC is. And the frivolous request of block by a admin, no less(!), is a perfect illustration why the blocking policy must be thoughtful by many. Staszek Lem (talk) 23:06, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
    • P.S. Since you are admin, let me remind you that RfC is specifically to handle cases when "the same editors are repeating the same arguments". Staszek Lem (talk) 23:14, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
• Policy is supposed to be descriptive, not prescriptive. The practice is that NOTHERE is used as a block rationale a lot, which makes that rationale policy with a small "p". The whole point of a wiki format is that things are fluid, they change over time, and we don't need to waste our time ratifying every minor change in practice. This RfC is a total waste of time, and the question is a non-issue (I use the rationale frequently for trolls, for example). But since we're here: Misplaced Pages is an encyclopaedia; our purpose as Wikipedians is to write and maintain it. Anything else should go somewhere else, and anyone whose edits don't contribute to that aim should be shown the door. That doesn't mean we have to be arseholes about it, but if somebody shows no interest in anything other than promoting their company/recording grandad's war stories/using Misplaced Pages as a webhost/re-fighting ancient wars/pushing a nationalist POV/etc etc, and we can't get them to stop voluntarily, they should be blocked and "NOTHERE" is as good an explanation for such a block as anything. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 23:05, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
  • There is a long-standing tradition in[REDACTED] that if something based on a commonly accepted essay becomes a widespread practice, then it should be promoted a policy or guideline. A major purpose of such promotion is cleanup of some careless language. Staszek Lem (talk) 23:09, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

• There is no such tradition. There is a long standing tradition of editing policy based on simple discussions(like we have already had above) without all the need for official RFCs and closures. When most people agree with something we call it a consensus and move on. HighInBC 00:42, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

• Well, I had an exactly opposite different experience, during promotion of WP:NGEO. There was a small minority which blocked the promotion of the essay. But unlike y'all here we neither suggest to block the opposite side, nor arrogantly dismiss them as nuisance, neither we push a fake "consensus" down their throats. There were at least 3 iterations of discussions, until a real consensus was reached. May be a cabal does not need RfC, but I do. I strongly suggest you to review the whole process of dispute resolution. Misplaced Pages is written by thousands of editors, therefore there is something inherently wrong when policies are edited by a handful of regulars. Staszek Lem (talk) 01:02, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

• Well if you want to insist on a whole official process then you can try. But I doubt it is going to change people's mind. Policy is descriptive, always has been and WP:NOTHERE is a common reason for blocking. HighInBC 02:49, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

• I am afraid you are misunderstanding my intentions. I am not about changing people's minds. I am about changing the policy when the practice changes. Y'all say WP:NOTHERE is a common reason. Now I say "therefore it is time to promote it to guideline and then update the policy." And alternative is to continue sloppy "business as usual" until the first scandal. (I admit I went a bit overFormalBoard with the suggestion to temporarily delist it from list of reasons, but I quickly withdrew the suggestion.) Staszek Lem (talk) 03:19, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

• It is a list of common block reasons, not a list of all acceptable block reasons. The essay can remain an essay and still be a common reason for blocking. There is nothing in policy that says every block must be based on a policy or guideline, we can act on the wisdom in an essay. HighInBC 02:10, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

• This RfC is not about common or acceptable block reasons. And the whole point is that the wisdom of the essay is questionable. An admin can write his own essay and cite it as a reason of his block, and it will be perfectly acceptable. But this admin cannot add this essay as recommended into the blocking policy without broad consensus. Staszek Lem (talk) 02:30, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

• What do you mean this RfC is not about common or acceptable block reasons?? Surely this is the discussion you referred to in this revert. The revert was under the section "Common rationales for blocks". Your own words describe this as an RfC to determine "whether WP:NOTHERE must be included among the suggested rationales in the policy". This RfC is exactly about a common acceptable block reason. HighInBC 05:15, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
  • See my prev reply. An admin may block and put the reason "See ". It is perfectly acceptable. What is not acceptable is to put in the policy. This RfC is not whether HOTHERE is acceptable reason, it is about putting it into the policy. There are zillions of essays of advice, many of them are sound and commonly cited, like WP:DEADHORSE, but we don't put all them in the policies. Staszek Lem (talk) 18:57, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

• A WP admin once said of me on the Wikien mailing list that I "wasn't here to build an encyclopedia." I think I had 10 Featured Articles at the time and was feverishly working on several others. Therefore, I have a problem with WP admins labeling other editors with that phrase, although perhaps it's good to allow them to use it as a blocking rationale, because it makes it easier to identify the WP admins who are tremendous jackasses and can't be trusted. Cla68 (talk) 00:34, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - Socking is covered under "Dishonest and gaming behaviors". Why link to WP:SOCK when blocking when you have NOTHERE? We should add WP:CV to that same section, of course. Why use WP:NPA as a rationale when you can just link the same essay for "repeated hostile aggressiveness" in the "Treating editing as a battleground" section? Everything's there in one neat little package. In fact: why not incorporate all the things that can get one blocked for into the essay and just link to it every time? Let's simplify the process of using block rationales, not complicate it!. Doc talk 10:25, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
  • You seem to be unwilling or unable to grasp the distinctions. For example, if most or all of an editor's extended activity involves picking fights or name calling then indef block WP:NOTHERE. If an editor with productive contributions goes off the rails then temp block WP:NPA. --NeilN 13:29, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
    • So for an indefinite block the essay should be used for the blocking rationale, and for a temporary block the policy should be linked for the blocking rationale. Makes sense. Are there any other essays besides this one and WP:VOA that should used when blocking over policies and guidelines? Right at WP:ESSAY it states: "Essays have no official status, and do not speak for the Misplaced Pages community as they may be created without approval." Is this correct? If it is, isn't it a bit confusing to block using a rationale from any essay? Doc talk 14:06, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
• Support WP:NOTHERE as a legitimate, policy-based block reason. I have no idea why this is controversial. It's 100% appropriate for cases where users violate more than one community norm, for example, edit warring to repeatedly insert antisemitic material into articles about the Holocaust; sneaky vandalism while making personal attacks on editors who revert the vandalism; forum talk on article talk pages while repeatedly adding unsourced content to the articles; inciting discord by making trifling complaints at ANI, supported by obvious meat puppets from 4chan; using multiple IP addresses and proxies in the Ukraine to push an agenda that Nikola Tesla was Croatian, not Serbian. WP:NOTHERE closely aligns with our core purpose expressed in WP:NOT: "Misplaced Pages is an online encyclopedia and, as a means to that end, an online community of individuals interested in building and using a high-quality encyclopedia in a spirit of mutual respect." If a user's participation in the project is observed to be substantially contrary to that purpose, then they are WP:NOTHERE to work with others to build an encyclopedia and should be blocked.- MrX 13:57, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

• It may be based in policy, but it is not policy. Doc talk 14:06, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

• If we were a strict bureaucracy then perhaps that distinction would matter. We're not and it doesn't.- MrX 14:15, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

• Again, "Essays have no official status, and do not speak for the Misplaced Pages community" per ESSAY. We shouldn't block using essays if this is true. Hey: change it to allow NOTHERE to be used! Doc talk 14:21, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

• Something that is cited as frequently as WP:NOTHERE clearly has community consensus. Per ESSAY: "Policies and guidelines can not cover all circumstances, consequently many essays serve as interpretations or commentary of perceived community norms for specific topics and situations." - MrX 14:44, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

• There's not one thing in NOTHERE that isn't covered elsewhere (and officially) by whatever policy or guideline it was gleaned from. NOTHERE simply doesn't enjoy the same community consensus as a policy or guideline precisely because it is an essay. I can't imagine why any essay should be linked in favor of the policies and guidelines that are, by definition, considered to be far more accepted as being community consensus. Doc talk 16:47, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

1. I echo the comments from more than one editor above about unnecessarily repeating the discussion. "The matter of policy change should not be in the hands of 2-3 a handful of regulars" could well be seen as an attempt at forum shopping: "I wanted to get my way by having a discussion among the few editors who turn up to this page to discuss the matter, but when I realised that I wasn't going to get my way by that method, I decided to move the goal posts and try to get my way by a different method."
2. Some of the arguments against use of "not here to contribute to the encyclopaedia" make little or no sense. Here are a few examples: (1) "We don't actually block folks for things they don't do, we block them for things they do." That is empty sophistry: obviously the way we come to the conclusion that an editor is not here to contribute to the encyclopaedia is that we observe them doing things other than contributing to the encyclopaedia. (2) Editors keep on harping on about the status of WP:NOTHERE as "not a policy". However, arguing that something should not be accepted because it isn't a policy is nonsense for at least two reasons. Firstly, many thing we do are not policies, and trying to turn Misplaced Pages into some sort of bureaucracy, where nothing can be done unless sanctioned by a written policy, is not helpful. Secondly, if there is consensus that the current practice is acceptable, then it can be added to the blocking POLICY if editors want every acceptable practice to be sanctioned by a policy. Arguing that we should not add it to a policy because it isn't policy is pure nonsense. (And, for the benefit of anyone who is unaware of the relevant history, this string of discussions was started because of editors wishing to add it to the blocking policy.) (3) "I cannot accept the fact the admins base their actions on an essay which contains some questionable advice". When did any administrator "base their actions on" that page? As far as I am concerned, I block people because it is clear that their editing does more harm than good to the project: if the particular manner in which that manifests itself indicate that they are here for some purpose other than contributing to the encyclopaedia, then it seems to me reasonable to say so; that does not mean that I am "basing" the decision to block on the existence of that page. If the page didn't exist, I would still be blocking the editor.
3. I have already said the following (albeit not in the same words) in the first discussion about this, above, and I find it unconstructive that a second and a third discussion on the same question have been started, but to avoid any risk that anyone assessing this third discussion may overlook what was said in the first one, I shall say it again: Blocking an editor because he or she is substantially here for reasons other than to contribute to the encyclopaedia is reasonable. When an editor is blocked for that reason, it is reasonable for the administrator to state that it is for that reason. Trying to forbid administrators from doing so is ridiculous. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 16:59, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

• You say "If the page didn't exist, I would still be blocking the editor". Let's pretend for a second that the page really didn't exist. You'd be blocking the editor for... what reason? It can't just be "clearly not being here to build an encyclopedia", obviously. There would have to be some concrete reason in a policy or a guideline that you could point to, every time, to justify the block. The BURO card does not play because policies are always going to trump essays. And admins should ideally base their decisions on policies over essays. Doc talk 17:19, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

@Doc9871: You say "It can't just be 'clearly not being here to build an encyclopedia', obviously." Why is that obvious? It isn't remotely obvious to me. And I thought I had already made the following clear, but evidently I hadn't, so I'll try once again. I have never in my time as a Misplaced Pages editor "based" any decision on an "essay". That does not, however, mean that it is never helpful to refer to an idea which has been expressed in an "essay" to help explain the reason for my decision. Got it now? The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 19:28, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Okay, let's try to hash out this hypothetical scenario again. You no longer have the option of linking to NOTHERE because it doesn't exist. Get it? So now you have to link (once again) to an actual policy or guideline when blocking... instead of the NOTHERE essay. Because it doesn't exist in the hypothetical situation, remember? Bear with me. So it's "obvious" that you can't use "not here to build an encyclopedia" as a blocking rationale in that scenario. There is always something more appropriate to link to that is far more important than this essay when blocking. Understand? Doc talk 06:12, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

@JamesBWatson: You are and experienced admin, and you probably no longer need extra teaching what to do. However from time to time a freshman admin comes blocking left and right based on their understanding of what is right. Therefore if WP:NOTHERE is going to be endorsed by policy, we better clean it up from dubious observations and sloppy advice before the endorsement or ASAP after. But after that it is only natural to promote it to the guideline status. Staszek Lem (talk) 19:59, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

All right, now you have made a concrete assertion ("from time to time a freshman admin comes blocking left and right based on their understanding of what is right"). I assume you're referring to dubious blocks. Please back up this assertion with concrete examples. --NeilN 03:48, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Aren't we into wikilawyering here? Are you seriously implying that we never had dubious blocks by inexperienced admins? Staszek Lem (talk) 18:57, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

No, because once again, you make an assertion without proof. You stated up above that NOTHERE is prone to abuse but don't provide any examples of that abuse. Now you say from time to time (implying it is a somewhat regular occurrence) a freshman admin comes blocking left and right (implying rapid, willy-nilly blocks) based on their understanding of what is right (implying that WP:NOTHERE is a culprit in this situation). Provide proof. And really, this whole exercise seems like wikilaywering on your part. The status quo is fine and is working. --NeilN 19:09, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

• re shouting: "Trying to forbid administrators from doing so is ridiculous" - straw man argument. Nobody can forbid admins to do what they see fit broadly understanding the good of wikipedia. We are discussion here whether and how to expand the existing policy, so that "what they see fit" to involve less personal decision and more commonly accepted practice. —  Preceding unsigned comment added by Staszek Lem (talk • contribs) 18:54, 3 November 2015‎

It's not a "straw man argument". Of course the editors who are plugging this know they can't actually "forbid" administrators from doing it, but their intention is to put administrators off doing so. I am way past thinking it worth spending time making sure that my wording are absolutely literal in every detail in this pointlessly-prolonged disruptive discussion. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 19:28, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

• One more point, which I have mentioned before, but which perhaps could do with emphasising. It seems to me that in these discussions at least two related but different questions are being confused together:

1. Should "not being here to contribute to the encyclopaedia" be accepted as a reason for blocking?
2. Should linking to the section of the page Misplaced Pages:Here to build an encyclopedia headed Misplaced Pages:Here to build an encyclopedia#Clearly not being here to build an encyclopedia (commonly abbreviated as WP:NOTHERE) be regarded as a good explanation of why an editor has been blocked?

• As I trust I have made clear by now, in my opinion the answer to the first question is "yes", if not "yes". However, my answer to the second is "Hmm. Weeeell ... not ideal." I ask anyone posting here from now on to be careful to distinguish between these tow questions. Some of the arguments above seem to me to be arguments against linking to WP:NOTHERE, but expressed in such a way as to suggest that their authors think that they are arguments against using "not here to contribute to the encyclopaedia" as a block reason, which is not at all the same thing. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 20:20, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
  • No, there are more than two:

1. Is "not being here to contribute to the encyclopaedia" a reason for blocking? (of course not)
2. If an admin makes a proper block, e.g. for WP:DE, but uses a "wrong" reason, e.g. WP:NOTHERE, does anyone actually care (probably not), or should the faux pas be ignored per not bureaucracy? (of course). More: It's kind of like the janitor's in the office where I work -- I just care they empty the trash and sweep the floor, don't really care how they do it, and if I started going around and saying "You're not emptying that trash can the right way!" that'd be seriously lame, right?
3. Should we invent a new bogus policy by linking a policy page to an essay? (nope) NE Ent 23:15, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

• No, there are more than three. Now, please take a look at the very top: According to RfC rules (AFAIU), the question was posted exactly about the contested edit of the policy. Despite the venom in my address from some, my purpose was to keep the discussion focused. While it is good that someone again brought our attention that the question is in fact a multipronged issue, the basic issue IMO remains single: if we are to add a new bullet or section in a policy, it cannot remain vague. (Vague issues of policy belong to WP:COMMONSENSE & WP:IAR.) IMO we agree that the phrase "not here to build encyclopedia" is but a shortcut, a tad longer than "WP:NOTHERE", to describe a frolicking behavior with a number of petty violations which, when taken alone each seem insufficient for block. And the real definition of this must be in the appropriate guideline. Such a guideline is a must. Otherwise one can block 80% of editors in Israel-Palestine topics: An admin can say "you are here for pushing Jewish agenda and nothing else", while the person is genuinely convinced he is doing a Good Thing by fixing[REDACTED] from the recent European surge of anti-Semitism slowly trickling into wikipedia. Therefore, for the purpose of analysis you can split my question (and answers) into as many subcurrents as convenient, the question remains single: whether WP:NOTHERE be officially listed in the policy, and all ramifications mentioned should be viewed as arguments pro and contra. When we collect all opinions, we can decide whether the item is salvageable. Staszek Lem (talk) 00:26, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

• Support idea because it reflects reality/precedent, but I agree that we really should be discussing promoting the existing essay to guideline status. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 17:46, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
• Simultaneously Support and Oppose for the same reason. WP:NOTHERE is a perfectly valid reason to block someone; it's a subset of general disruptive behavior. It's merely an explanation of the kind of disruptive behavior we're blocking someone for. Per WP:CREEP, WP:IAR, it is neither desirable nor even possible to list, ahead of time, every single way a person may be disruptive. So, yes, we should still block people who disrupt Misplaced Pages. No, we don't need to modify the instructions to list every way they can do it. --Jayron32 17:58, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Your phrase "a subset of general disruptive behavior" gives me an idea of a compromise solution: do not add WP:NOTHERE as a separate section, 'simply expand the section Misplaced Pages:Blocking policy#Disruption with the phrase, some like:

    "Editors with predominantly disruptive behavior which is not clearly described by one of the major types listed above are commonly blocked with the 'not here to build an encyclopedia' rationale", i.e., the advice is to apply this rationale only in gray area cases, based on admin's WP:DUCK judgement. Staszek Lem (talk) 19:13, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

    • First, if it's a gray area, admins shouldn't be blocking. Second, WP:NOTHERE can be determined by community consensus as well, not only admins. --NeilN 19:28, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

      • I used the term "gray area" in an attempt of extra explanation of my suggestion to distinguish behavior which is not directly covered by the listed disruption types. And yes, AFAIU admins have rights to and do block in this "gray area", per WP:COMMON & WP:DUCK. Staszek Lem (talk) 20:30, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
      • If and when WP:NOTHERE will be formally approved by community consensus, it will be elevated to the status of a guideline and it will no longer be in the "gray area" of policies. Staszek Lem (talk) 20:30, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

      I don't think you understand. Right now, an editor can be determined WP:NOTHERE per community consensus and an admin will block accordingly. There is no "gray area". --NeilN 20:44, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

      You right, sorry. I was thinking about text of WP:NOTHERE, while you were speaking about its usage. Yes, the community can decide to apply block or ban, but this happens exactly when there is a "gray area" so that an admin is not feeling sure to block right away. Otherwise just post somewhere at WP:AN and done with the abuser without distracting the community. Staszek Lem (talk) 20:59, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

This discussion could be the poster child for why more people don't particpate in policy discussions.... Beeblebrox (talk) 21:16, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Please explain what is wrong with this discussion and suggest how it can be improved. IMO compared to some other places this one is a rather civilized exchange of arguments. Staszek Lem (talk) 02:06, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

• Support, seems like basic common sense that policy pages should reflect current typical practice. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 16:21, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
• The "Common rationales for blocks" section goes out of its way to emphasize that it's describing what actually happens (as policies should), rather than what should happen (as most policies attempt to). Claiming that WP:NOTHERE is not a commonly-given reason for blocking amounts to a lie of omission. —Cryptic 16:34, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

• re: "claiming that <...> amounts to lie of omission" - Red herring, personal insult, or failure of logical capacity; take your pick. Comparative example: WP:NGEO we used in AfD for years before it took 2 more years and 3 iterations to promote it to the status of guideline. I expect that a blocking policy is a much more serious issue to expand its content without serious deliberation. Opposite example: "sorry I was running late" was never a valid way to dodge a ticket despite its extreme commonness. Staszek Lem (talk) 17:32, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

I find it ironinc that you would use that example to rebut someone else's supposedly shoddy logic. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:40, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

And I find it extremely weird that some people don't see the difference between "being in common use" and "recommended by policy". Staszek Lem (talk) 22:51, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

I am at a loss as to why you can't get that policy is descriptive and not prescriptive. Why the section heading "Common rationales for blocks" does not seem to indicate to you that it is a list block reasons "being in common use" is beyond me. You seem to be under the impression that a list of common block reasons is a recommended list of reasons to block. It is exactly what it claims to be, a list of block reasons as you say "being in common use". Cryptic's reasoning was not a red herring, certainly not an insult and not failing in logic at all. NGEO is hardly relevant here. HighInBC 00:12, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

"descriptive and not prescriptive" is a legalese I fail to grasp in this context. What I know is that if something gets into a policy, it becomes an almost unbeatable argument in a dispute. And I don't want that this argument to be based on an essay not scrutinized by the community. NGEO was an example of an exactly similar situation: there was informal "business as usual" until it was decided to clean the act and make it into a decent guideline, and as such formally include into WP:NOTABILITY. Staszek Lem (talk) 00:49, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

• Support. This is already regular and largely accepted practice anyway. Gamaliel (talk) 20:04, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose per user:NE Ent. John Vandenberg 22:11, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
• Support WP:NOTHERE as a legitimate, policy-based block reason. Hawkeye7 (talk) 02:43, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose until the page WP:NOTHERE is promoted to guideline status. I agreesympathize with Staszek Lem and NE Ent. Block people only for reasons they are here, not for reasons why they aren't. This blocking rationale, especially when used to block users from their own talk page, is infringing on their rights. Block editors because they are here to commit vandalism. Block them because they are here to harass people. Block them because they are wheel-warring. Don't block them for this weasel-reason, because you think your real reason (often "I don't like your POV") won't fly with other admins and the community. – Wbm1058 (talk) 18:19, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

• "won't fly with other admins and the community" - reports and results at AIV and ANI say otherwise. And I'm still waiting for examples of abusive NOTHERE blocks. --NeilN 18:33, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

  The admin's block-tool drop-down lists 19 possible legitimate reasons for blocking before finally listing this as possible reason #20 at the end. For the benefit of non-administrators, what's in the drop-down is specified on the page MediaWiki:Ipbreason-dropdown. Is there a way to filter the block log to show only "reason 20" blocks? I don't see the reason "per community consensus at (discussion page)" or similar, is community consensus (by !voting) a legitimate reason for a block? Curious, as this is an area I haven't spent much time in. Wbm1058 (talk) 19:11, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

• I see that there is a parallel discussion at MediaWiki talk:Ipbreason-dropdown § WP:NOTHERE. – Wbm1058 (talk) 19:21, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
• I also see that "not here" was added to the drop-down at 11:46, 13 August 2013. Was this a bold edit? I see no discussion on MediaWiki talk:Ipbreason-dropdown prior to the addition. Indeed, no edits to that page at all between 5 August 2013‎–17 January 2014‎. Discussion only started there on July 25, 2014 (at the link I provided above). Wbm1058 (talk) 20:14, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
• I also observe that {{Uw-nothereblock}} was created on 15 June 2014. Wbm1058 (talk) 21:11, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
• More observations: The drop-down also has an "Other" option, which when used allows the administrator to enter in any free-form reason they want to the block log's block summary – so admins are not limited to the reasons in MediaWiki:Ipbreason-dropdown (these are really just for convenience to save typing, a way to standardize the block log's summaries, and perhaps as a "crib sheet" to the most commonly used reasons supported by policy and guidelines). I note that the policy simply gives a list of "common rationales" for blocks, and only specifies a limited set of reasons for which blocking may not be used. So the blocking policy does not prohibit blocking for the reasons given in WP:NOTHERE. For that reason I've struck part of my original opinion.

It appears that JamesBWatson's implementation was bold. It was implemented shortly after he removed several links to deleted pages, and first used to block 1kdhar (9 deleted edits) within minutes of implementation. A reasonable notice was left on User talk:1kdhar. I guess my only quibble with this is that I'd rather see something like "Narrow self interest and/or promotion" and/or "Focusing on Misplaced Pages as a social networking site" left in the block-log summary. If we could replace the "not here" rationale with these other reasons, which are already included by consensus in the information page, then I think that might satisfy most of the opposition here. Now, if anyone thinks editors shouldn't be blocked for social networking, then that needs to be spelled out in the "When blocking may not be used" section of the policy. You might want to tell Lila Tretikov about community attitudes towards social networking because she seems to want to get people using Facebook to discuss Misplaced Pages to come over here for their discussions. – Wbm1058 (talk) 23:35, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

• Support. The discussion that won't die.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:35, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

  Sorry, I'm late to the party here, so it will take me some time to catch up. I'm here due to the mention in Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2015-11-11/Discussion report. – Wbm1058 (talk) 21:15, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

• Support WP:NOTHERE is very useful both as a summary of opinion at a noticeboard like ANI and as a block reason. It highlights that the purpose of Misplaced Pages is to develop the encyclopedia based on the policies and guidelines outlined at WP:5P, and it is often the kindest way to farewell someone who may be trying but who makes contributions that indicate they are unlikely to help. Some editors are timesinks and net negatives without being blatantly disruptive, and there is no need to waste more time deciding exactly why they are being blocked. They can always appeal and explain how they will contribute. Johnuniq (talk) 21:36, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
• EXAMPLE OF ABUSE You wanted examples? Right here you have.

  • 23:18, 15 November 2015 Kudpung (talk | contribs) blocked Lembrazza (talk · contribs) with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation blocked) (Clearly not here to contribute to the encyclopedia)

  From what I see Lembrazza wanted to add a more detailed categories, such as Category:Science fiction adventure films. As I see he is met with strong oposition. Eventually he got very pissed off : "Fucking godddamn, if there can be sci-fi action, sci-fi horror, sci-fi thriller why there can't fucking be sci-fi adventure?" If you skip f-words, his point is an my uneducated glance is quite reasonable. Now, how the F* he is "not here to build encyclopedia"? Look at his F*ng contributions since 2013. IMO it is a blatant abuse of admins power to whack an infinite NOTHERE block without any cooldown blocks of a long-time contributor. And don't tell me Lembrazza was abusive, disruptive, blabla. Of course he went amok after so much stonewalling. But saying that he is NOTHERE is bullshit. My immediate first thought was to request a reblock, but just as immediately I realized that this user is watched by strong-arm-block aficionados. Staszek Lem (talk) 22:42, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

  • The above seems to conflate quantity with quality. What is needed are people who work collaboratively to build the encyclopedia—not enthusiasts who edit war (within an hour: 1 + 2 + 3) to add a category which gets ten delete votes and no keep at CfD. The issue was at ANI for five days, and no one opposed the close, and I don't think anyone has requested an unblock. Johnuniq (talk) 23:29, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
    • Your comment is a perfect illustration of the issue. If he is edit warring, we have a very good guideline for block. The block as it was made was power muscle flexing, to swat a fly with a sledgehammer. Yes we need people who edit collaboratively. But this comes from two sides. the user was suggesting a perfctly valid Category:Science fiction adventure films. Where the hell is your collaboration in this respect? Y are talking about quanitity vs quality. Was he edit warring for all these years? Where are the warning messages? Staszek Lem (talk) 23:46, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
    • I'm with Staszek here. Clearly, for his last three edits, this editor should have been blocked for incivility. But a perma-block? How would that fly if a "content creator" were perma-blocked for such an outburst. An appropriate cool-down block is all that was needed here. Wbm1058 (talk) 00:25, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
      • No one cares about the mini edit war I mentioned—that's just an illustration of a bigger issue. A total of 53 edits have been made to User talk:Lembrazza. Two of those were by Lembrazza, and each was to blank the page. Lembrazza did not contribute to the ANI discussion I linked in my last comment, and according to the report at ANI the issue has been ongoing. I am not concerned by the frustration shown in the last three edits—everyone can flame-out occasionally. What would you recommend for a case like this where several good editors get frustrated by having their time wasted cleaning up, and the editor will not communicate? NOTHERE is an acknowledgement of the fact that not everyone is a good fit for how things operate here, and it is kinder than describing someone as disruptive or incompetent. Johnuniq (talk) 02:57, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
        • Sorry, disagreed about the 'kinder' part. Is someone is dusruptive, block so. If someone is incompetent, request sources. If someone refuses to discuss and continues doing whatever they were doing, only in different pages, this is a disruption of WP:IDONTHEAR type. Just as vandalism in[REDACTED] has a very specific meaning (but the term is misused quite often), IMO WPNOTHERE is prone to a frivolous "layman" interpretation. Staszek Lem (talk)
        • Yes I looked at their talk page. I have no issue with blocking that editor. My two concerns are: (1) The duration of the block. An indefinite for their first and only block? C'mon, you just don't do that to an editor with this long a history. (2) The block-log rationale should have more specifically described the blocking editor's reasoning. Wbm1058 (talk) 12:15, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Don't get sidetracked by this particular case; the problem was not that NOTHERE is an unacceptable rationale, it's that it doesn't apply in this particular case. Any rationale can be misused; that doesn't mean the rationale should never be used. I've changed it to making personal attacks and disruption. --Floquenbeam (talk) 03:21, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
    • No sidetracking. Someone insistently challenged to provide an example: " And I'm still waiting for examples of abusive NOTHERE blocks". Otherwise, they say, what's the fuss. Yes, any rationale may be misused. Th point is that a rationale based on a sloppy essay is prone to be misused. Staszek Lem (talk) 03:43, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
      • I asked for examples. Note the plural. As in, show it is habitually misused and don't build your case on one incident. --NeilN 14:52, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
        • In the last 5,000 blocks (~ the past 5 days) I find about 29 "not here" blocks. There are indeed a number of different admins making them, so it is clearly a de facto accepted practice. Some specify additional reason(s), which is good. Jabberwock2112 just made six edits to WP:ANI and the supplemental reason was all edits to ANI, none to articles. I don't think there should be a prohibition on anonymous whistle-blower posts to ANI as conceivably some could be very constructive. So, I don't necessarily disagree that block, but the block summary should have been "only here to make disruptive ANI edits". Note that their first edit advocated a ban with the rationale "clearly a case of WP NOTHERE"... Wbm1058 (talk) 16:57, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
        • Iam txiii was here to promote a not-notable 16-year-old American social media personality, socialite, and actor, and the log summary could have said that, rather than using the canned "clearly not here to contribute" meme. – Wbm1058 (talk) 17:13, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
        • Deezqwertynuts should have been blocked for vandalism rather than "not here". – Wbm1058 (talk) 17:25, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

          One thing to note is for blocks like these that are clearly not questionable, it's safe to say they are "not here to contribute" so a more informative block summary (if you want to consider it that) is not really necessary. Sometimes we just want to block and move on to more patrolling. You can argue NOTHERE isn't the most fitting, but it's certainly not inaccurate. The second example had made potentially constructive edits, rendering "vandalism-only account" as a no-go, and "vandalism" while appropriate does not imply an indefinite duration, where NOTHERE does. — MusikAnimal 17:31, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

          To clarify on my last point, Twinkle presets NOTHERE as indefinite, where if you chose Vandalism you'd have to select indefinite. This is trivial as we're only saving a few seconds of our time, but again the user clearly is not here to contribute, without question, so who cares? — MusikAnimal 17:36, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

          What MusikAnimal said. Plus, I don't know why the specificity of NOTHERE blocks is being questioned when disruptive editing blocks are even more vague. --NeilN 17:38, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

          <sigh> For 22nd time: the rationale is not questioned. The authority of admin to use any rationale is not questioned. The right of an admin to make a mistake is not questioned. The text of the essay is questioned as unfit for a policy. Misplaced Pages:Disruptive editing is a guideline, which means it passeda rigorous scrutiny (I sincerely hope) and several major rewrites. WPNOTHERE is an essay 85% of single author (and 17 vandals :-). Staszek Lem (talk) 18:55, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

          A block "per NOTHERE" is essentially equivalent to a block "per WP:BP", as (I presume) nothing in the policy specifically is counter to anything in § Clearly not being here to build an encyclopedia. It's equivalent to a speedy deletion "per WP:CSD" (without specifying any specific CSD criteria). We don't really need to elevate the entire information page to guideline, just § Clearly not being here to build an encyclopedia, as that's all that could conceivably be used as a rationale for blocking – or perhaps only some of the ten elements in that section. If they were labeled NH1 through NH10, then the codes could be used as shorthand for the rationales, similar to speedy criteria G1 through G13. Wbm1058 (talk) 21:28, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

          • Yes, it is a reasonable option: (A) include a brief section about NOTHERE into the policy after the text is negotiated by the community; (B) retarget redirect to it; (C) Add the essay 'WP:HERE' into the "See also" section, same as we do with other essays we consider reasoable. Staszek Lem (talk) 18:18, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: Per MrX, NOTHERE is: '…a legitimate, policy-based block reason' (emphasis mine). NOTHERE is not a policy anymore than any other freely formulated apropriate blocking rationale. As per HJ Mitchell: they should be blocked and "NOTHERE" is as good an explanation for such a block as anything. JamesBWatson also sums it up perfectly with his boldend statement. We should guard against the bureaucracy of trying to include every possible action and infraction in those templated lists - Twinkle is already in such a confusing mess that very often even a hand written rationale is significantly quicker. What we have to undestand is that NOTHERE provides an essay which avoids having to paste its text or something similar into a block log where a reference to NOTHERE will suffice. A user whose editing patern is, or has clearly become, one that is no longer concerned with adding content, maintaining content or other aspect of the site, and is being used henceforth for inciviity, attacking other users, or posting strings of expletives, is IMHO, not or no longer on Misplaced Pages in the best interests of the project and should be shown the door.

If an admin opens that door and boots the user through it, it is not an abuse of sysop power, and any minor technical errors in doing so should be easily addressed without acrimony. Yesterday in an attempt to derail an Arbcom election, a candidate was accused of grave admin abuse by using NOTHERE as a possibly slightly inaccurate rationale. However, when a user is on a disruptive spree, s/he has to be stopped quickly and to that end any block rationale from a drop-down of choices is reasonable provided the actual block is appropriate, which in this case it was. It's really very bad faith to accuse an admin of abuse and demand he relinquish his tools for such a minor error when just genuinely carrying out the tasks the community gave him the trust to do and where he has no other history of impropriety. To project such a negative opinion loudly into other Misplaced Pages spaces and discussions is itself rather poor form. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 04:16, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

• Kudpung What you say does seem a bit unfair to the Arbcom candidate. Can you give the diff which links to this poor form demand that the candidate relinquish his/her tools for using NOTHERE as a rationale? --Epipelagic (talk) 05:41, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Or are you going to ignore my question as is your usual practice, because you just made this up as an excuse for more bluster? The block you refer to appears to be your own, and is discussed above as the prime example under the heading "EXAMPLE OF ABUSE". The block is also mentioned in a question concerning your bid to become an aribtrator. It was mentioned there as a current example of the haughty attitude you have towards content editors. But no one asked you to resign because of the block... you dreamed that up all by yourself. --Epipelagic (talk) 06:33, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

• This long comment by Kudpung is IMO a yet another reason why we need a clear policy here. The argument "one that is no longer concerned with adding content, maintaining content or other aspect of the site, and is being used henceforth for inciviity, attacking other users, or posting strings of expletives" is dubious in the part "no longer" How long the "no longer" should be? What was the reason of incivility? Was the person provoked that he could not do anything else but vent their frustration? Real people are not machines. Occasional outbursts happen. You do have to block them. Explain the real reason: disruption is intolerable; disagreements must be resolved in civilized way. But don't tell them they are basically a useless piece of shit and kick out forever. Kudpung is entitled to his strong opinion about disruptors and the ways he handles them, but I strongly object that his POV on NOTHERE be part of the policy. Staszek Lem (talk) 17:59, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

It's a great example of how off-base an interpretation of what being "here" actually is.

Here's another example: a user quite popular with some of the editors here was blocked with the NOTHERE rationale. It met resistance and was emphatically overturned This editor continues to edit... so I guess they are "here" after all! The absurd notion that admins will somehow intrinsically just "know" who is HERE and NOTHERE when blocking is once again proven to be nonsense. Checks and balances, people!!!

This RfC truly needs major site-wide advertising before it should be closed per WP:CONLIMITED. This relatively quite small group of admins who basically just "like" this sloppy essay rationale when blocking should not be allowed to override the position of the many other admins and users here through numbers and ivotes. Doc talk 02:57, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

It's the equivalent of speedy deletion per Misplaced Pages:NOTENCYCLOPEDIC criteria. Follow that link to see what the community thinks about that (it's on the page "Misplaced Pages:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions"). Wbm1058 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 04:16, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

One can't use any essay as a speedy deletion rationale according to #14. Using an essay as a blocking rationale should be okay though. Doc talk 09:26, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

It should also be pointed out that we don't use the WP:COMPETENCE essay when blocking, though it is often cited. I see little difference between that essay and HERE when it comes to blocking rationales. Neither are sufficient. Doc talk 22:15, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

• Support - this would have made getting rid of users like Middayexpress (talk · contribs) (or even, in his later stages User:Mrg3015 much easier. Buckshot06 (talk) 00:19, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

What the hell are you talking about? Would have? Facepalm! Doc talk 08:32, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: Lest there be any misundrstanding in anything I have sad here. I woud like 2 things t e perfectlylear: I have not voted one wayor the other in this discussion, and at no time have I even suggested that it should become policy, neither have I said it shoukldn't. Concurring with severa other editors/admins whom I have mentioned, I have expanded on how it may be or often is used, and that its used is in now way a gross abuse of admin tool even if it fall shirt 9of f100% accuracy as a blocking rationale My block in the cited example was not overturned and I do believe that none of my 770 blocks in my history as an admin ever have been. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 12:17, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
  • "I woud like 2 things t e perfectlylear:" - couldn't be clearer! ;) BTW, is 770 blocks in 4 years a record, does anyone know? Leaky Caldron 12:30, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose the inclusion of NOTHERE as a criterion. I've actually seen someone indeffed out-of-process by an admin for this, and it was wrong. NOTHERE is something that ANI/AN/AE/ArbCom can consider among other factors in deciding whether to community-ban or ArbCom-ban someone, but it's not a "I'm an admin and I'm going to block you on this basis" criterion. It's much, much too subjective.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  20:48, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
• Strong support making this a guideline. Some influential people claim it is not. They need to be shown otherwise. Without this as a guideline, some people will wikilawyer their way out of everything. It is the single most important rule here. If you're not here to make an encyclopedia, why are you here? DreamGuy (talk) 15:30, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
• Support making NOTHERE a guideline and making it a reason to block. If admins start abusing it ("She was just reading articles! NOTHERE!" "Edited User page before an article edit! NOTHERE!") then the guideline can be rewritten or removed, but I trust its use would be in line with other general guidelines but would apply the general principles of blocking without wikilawyering. -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 21:10, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
• Support – As one who has sent many new accounts to AIV, this essay/criterion sums everything up nicely. When a new user makes their five edits (sometimes so sad to see us have to wait even that long sometimes) and they are clearly not even interested in making a constructive contribution, this non-policy covers all aspects of their abusive edits. There is a significant difference between those that make good-faith or test edits, or have a poor understanding of how to improve an article and those that are just here to cause trouble, repeatedly attempting to communicate with their friends across the hall, and downright blatant vandalizers. That said, the policy should not be used on established users where more formal and exact commentary would be more appropriate in case they wish to appeal.--☾Loriendrew☽ ☏(ring-ring) 22:38, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

No comments in two weeks, and it has been over 30 days since first proposed. Are we up for an evaluation and closing?--☾Loriendrew☽ ☏(ring-ring) 00:21, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Wiki 101 review

Since the above discussion is just a little ridiculous, let's review how we (should) work around here.

• Something's wrong, just fix it (bold)
• If you think a change isn't an improvement, revert and discuss.
• If you can't come to consensus through discussion, initiate RFC. Wait 30 days or so. Count votes. Position with more votes gets implemented.

Repeating yourself isn't likely to change anyone's mind, and repeating yourself in bold even less so. And try to keep in mind it's just a website, and what you're fussing about probably doesn't make that much difference either way. NE Ent 23:19, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

• Consensus is not determined by counting votes. HighInBC 02:14, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
  • WP:OFCOURSE it is. NE Ent 03:59, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
    • The linked essay is so full of problems I don't know where to start. HighInBC 04:33, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
      • NOTHERE isn't much better. Just because it's an information page doesn't make it any less of an essay than that one. Not one of you administrators has answered why the NOTHERE essay is a) preferable to linking the appropriate policy or guideline, or b) different from any other essay. Dismissing the opposing viewpoints as process wonkery, wikilawyering, etc. doesn't make it any less true that essays should not be used for blocking rationales. Why is this so difficult to understand? It's just an essay! It's the same as any other essay. How is it not? Doc talk 07:30, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
• re: "Repeating yourself isn't likely to change anyone's mind" - mostly true. However in lots of discussions quite often a new person arrives, reads the top and writes their opinion at the (very far) bottom not really perusing the whole talk. Several times I witnessed a counter-argument to the just posted opinion actually changed poster's opinion. Unfortunately we don't have a convenient way of cross-referencing individual arguments in the talk. Then we could have had like this: (( New: "Aa ...zzz" - Me: "Sorry, did you see my point A27?" - New: "Yes I did; Still disagree." )) - case closed. Staszek Lem (talk) 20:48, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
• re: "If you can't come to consensus through discussion, initiate RFC" - yeah, sure, and get threatened by a block for disruption. Staszek Lem (talk) 20:51, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

I don't think there is any serious threat of you being blocked for process wonkery. It is not a common block reason. HighInBC 02:44, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Just as persistent assuming bad faith does not make an admin desysopped. IMHO even joking suggestion of block for talks in this page is an indicator that this admin is potential menace. Staszek Lem (talk) 17:27, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

If someone threatened to block you about this then the proper place to address it is their talk page or failing that a noticeboard. HighInBC 00:15, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

That was not a complaint; that was an example of admin's frivolous attitude to blocking. By the way, I've just looked up wiktionary for the term unknown to me : process wonkery. If this is what you meant, then no, it was not for wonkery; it was actually for disruptive editing. Staszek Lem (talk) 01:09, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

There is a relatively small subset of admins that want to popularize the usage of a freaking essay for block rationales because they like it. Unfortunately, not one of them can explain how it is appropriate to use an essay over a policy or guideline, or how one essay is more important than another when blocking, or why legitimate complaints about using an essay is "wonkery". Their position on this does not represent what the community wants, just as essays do not reflect community consensus. When the admin ranks close, the community pays the price. No admin on the side supporting NOTHERE seems to be willing to see the logical conclusion of the slippery slope: you keep using essays as a blocking rationale, other admins are going to use other essays as well. BURO is the worst argument for using essays as block rationales that I've seen. Make policies, guidelines and essays all the same if you don't want a hierarchy! Seriously! Doc talk 06:41, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

Heads up - You are not the community. Go monitor ANI and AIV for a month and see how many calls are made for WP:NOTHERE blocks by non-admin editors. --NeilN 06:45, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

I've monitored both boards for years. Who give a toss what non-admin editors ask for blocks for? Admins should block based on policy, not essays! Doc talk 06:51, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

"The admins' position is not representative of the community." "Erm, the community asks for NOTHERE blocks all the time." "Who gives a toss what the community asks for?" --NeilN 07:00, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

No. A small subset of admins (including you) want to use an essay to block people. "But some people ask for others to be blocked for that essay all the time, so therefore we should do it." If you can explain how one essay among many hundreds is tantamount to policy or even a guideline, I could follow you logically. Instead you are twisting my words and trying to discredit me, avoiding the issue. For shame. Doc talk 07:08, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

Why can't WP:HERE be promoted to a guideline if it's strong enough a reason to block an editor? Then it's no longer just another essay! Better yet: incorporate the key elements of NOTHERE into the logical place, the policy of WP:NOT. An attempt at rational compromise instead of, "We like it, we've been doing it, we're going to keep on doing it, we don't care if it's wrong or right, and we don't want to hear any shit from you troublemakers about it." By definition, "Essays have no official status, and do not speak for the Misplaced Pages community". Why is this simply being ignored? Doc talk 07:51, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

Because there's no need to promote every blocking reason to a guideline. If an admin uses a custom blocking reason frequently there's no need to promote that to a guideline either. BTW, are you aware that WP:VOA, linked to by VOA block messages, is an essay? --NeilN 14:12, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

Well, actually, yes! I pointed it out several days ago: "The only other information page that admins should(?) use for a block rationale here appears to be VOA, which is directly tied to a policy." At least that is unambiguously tied to the one policy of WP:VAND. Is your position that NOTHERE is as good as any other when it comes to using an essay for custom blocking reasons? Doc talk 14:26, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

I don't care that it's an essay. I could write a three sentence custom block reason and that could be considered an essay. What matters is that the block reason accurately describes the reason for the block. --NeilN 15:17, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

So linking to any essay as the main block rationale is fair game when you block an editor? Doc talk 15:31, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

Any good rational whatsoever is fair game when an editor is blocked. There is no need for it to be documented somewhere. HighInBC 15:37, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

I think Doc9871 expects some admins to lose all common sense when blocking. Look, I can block HighInBC as a VOA right now. It's a policy-based reason for blocking as your clamoring for but I'd get desysopped right away because there's absolutely no justification for that (policy-based) reason to be applied to HighInBC. Crying "but it's a policy-based reason!" isn't going to save me. --NeilN 15:57, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

How could you could block HighInBC as a VOA right now? Doc talk 16:02, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

If I understand correctly, he's saying he could do it, with a policy-based reason, and it would still be wrong. And NOTHERE, while not being a policy, could still be a correct reason to block. He's saying it is not as black-and-white as some are making it out to be. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:28, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

Correct. --NeilN 16:31, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

• A "small subset" may not be entirely accurate. Since NOTHERE was added to MediaWiki:Ipbreason-dropdown in August 2013, there have been 222 different admins who used it when blocking out of the 660 distinct admins who performed any block during that time (~34%). In total there have been 4794 NOTHERE blocks since August 2013 . I suspect if we were able to narrow down the set of admins to those who work in counter-vandalism and related noticeboards (such as AIV or AN/I), the percentage of NOTHERE blocks versus total blocks would be higher. — MusikAnimal 16:38, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

• Yeah, that's actually disturbing. So we have solid precedence in using this essay for a block rationale. And we clearly have no desire to upgrade said essay to a higher status simply because... we like it.

Now, are this and VOA the only essays to be used for block rationales? Because they are extra special?! Doc talk 16:46, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

• By way of comparison, there's been 228396 non-NOTHERE blocks in that timeframe . Though, on reflection, I expect rather a lot of them were by ProcseeBot (talk · contribs · logs), so that's not terribly useful. More interesting is this list of NOTHERE blocks by admin, which shows that the overwhelming majority of admins using this as a block rationale have only done so a handful of times. —Cryptic 17:25, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

• FFS. I seriously had no idea @Materialscientist:, who is basically the man at AIV, used this rationale so often when blocking. I am even more disturbed than before. Doc talk 17:30, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

NOTHERE is preferable to WP:VAND when blocking users reported at AIV. Please explain, Materialscientist. Doc talk 17:39, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

• Hmm, well we shouldn't be name calling first off (no need to judge when NOTHERE is right there in the block reason dropdown), but for the record Materialscientist is one of the most prolific blocking admins out there. 872 blocks since late 2013 is a very small amount for them (around 5% ), so saying they use it "often" is inaccurate — MusikAnimal 17:40, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

Name-calling? How? Doc talk 17:47, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, name-calling was not the correct terminology. What I meant to say is this is not the venue to ping admins and question their usage of a particular rationale when blocking, saying you are "disturbed" by it and asking that they "please explain". More feedback is of course welcomed, but no need to put anyone in the spotlight when again NOTHERE is in the dropdown of presupplied block reasons – so people are going to use it, and you should assume they had good reason to — MusikAnimal 18:03, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

I made an AIV report years before you were even a registered account here. I know Materialscientist quite well. You do not need to speak for him. Doc talk 18:09, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

re: "Any good rational whatsoever is fair game when an editor is blocked. There is no need for it to be documented somewhere." -- Two points: (1) yes a "good rationale" is good to have documented, for spread of good practice. (2) If there were infinite number of "good rationales", then documenting them all would be impractical. Fortunately this is not the case: People have a nifty thing called "abstract thinking" which allows them to classify infinite number phenomena into a finite set of concepts. Example: It is a good rationale: "I blocked you because you put the word 'penis' and "gay" into several articles". I am sure it is an extremely common editing; I remember reverting some myself. But nobody would suggest to put "Adding word penis into an article" into the policy. In our case of NOTHERE we are dealing with an abstract definition of a certain editing pattern, which can cover a big number of concrete behaviors. Therefore in my Book of Logic this is a valid example why NOTHERE deserves to be in the policy, unlike WP:DONT_PUT_PENIS_INTO_RANDOM_ARTICLES. Staszek Lem (talk) 19:23, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

I wouldn't expect your "Book of Logic" to become a bestseller anytime soon... Beeblebrox (talk) 20:09, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

It would be greatly appreciated if you keep your insults off discussions of policy. I am not really touchy, but you are derailing the discussion. Staszek Lem (talk)

P.S. Wait a sec! You are an admin too? How come this discussion is infested with uncivil admins? Staszek Lem (talk) 20:26, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

It is not incivility to point out faulty premises and shoddy logic. Beeblebrox (talk) 03:05, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Well, your comment did not point out neither faulty nor shoddy. If you did I could have said "sorry, my bad" (I have no problem with that) or "sorry, you misunderstood me". But your comment leaves me with the only argument: "Certainly not among[REDACTED] admins I see here." Staszek Lem (talk) 20:10, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Administrator's userspace - huh?

... in that administrator's userspace.

I suspect what intended is "admin's area of editing interests". 'Userspace' rather calls to mean Misplaced Pages:User namespace. IMO should be rephrased for clarity. - üser:Altenmann >t 07:34, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

The short section is about conflicts that an administrator might have, essentially a reference to WP:INVOLVED, that would prevent the administrator from blocking. In that context the sentence "It is acceptable for an administrator to block someone who has been engaging in clear-cut vandalism in that administrator's userspace" means that if a user is blocking the administrator's userpage, Talk page, or any other page in that administrator's userspace, policy doesn't prohibit the administrator from blocking the user. In other words, it means what it says.--Bbb23 (talk) 08:33, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

The original wording makes the point clearer: "It is okay for an administrator to block a vandal who has been messing with their own user pages or talk page, as long as it is clear-cut straight vandalism" Actually, it's OK for an administrator to block clear-cut vandals doing clear-cut vandalism anywhere. No? -- zzuuzz 10:38, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Did it really say that (I didn't look)? "messing"? Your second point occurred to me, of course, although not with quite so many "clear-cut"s. :-) --Bbb23 (talk) 16:17, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

BASC reform motion

An arbitration motion proposing a major overhaul of the current BASC system has been proposed. Comments are welcome at that location. Thank you. For the Arbitration Committee, L235 (t / c / ping in reply) 20:21, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Discuss this at: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Motions#Community comments (BASC Reform)

Motion to disband BASC proposed

A second arbitration motion has been proposed which would disband the BASC. Comments from the community are welcome. For the Arbitration Committee, Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:52, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

Discuss this at: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Motions#Community comments (BASC disbanded)

Unblock conditions

For some time admins have been working in a limbo state where they are unblocking with conditions on further editing but don't have a policy basis to support them (see, for example, Worm's unblock of Kumioko and some resultant discussion). This will be even more important now that the Arbitration Committee has handed block and ban appeals back to the community to deal with. I propose that the following be added as a section under §Unblocking, I've based it on what I have observed of current practice:

Administrators may, with the agreement of the blocked user, impose unblock conditions when unblocking an editor if the administrator is not comfortable that a complete unblock would be in the best interests of the project. Unblock conditions should be designed to prevent the behaviour which lead to the block occurring again (such as a page ban to prevent further edit warring).

• Any unblock conditions will expire at a time agreed to by the blocked user and administrator but must not exceed the original block expiry.
• Unblock conditions may include page or topic bans, revert restrictions and single account restrictions.
• If editors breach unblock conditions they may be blocked or further restricted, but the block imposed must not exceed the original block expiry. This does not prevent an administrator imposing other sanctions (such as a new block) if there is fresh misconduct, which breaches other policies and guidelines, not just the unblock conditions.
• Unblock conditions may be appealed in the same way as a block (to the unblocking administrator, uninvolved administrators or to AN).
• Unblock conditions should be recorded on the user's talk page (in a notice which should not be removed while the conditions are active), linked to in the unblock reason and may be noted at Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions#Final warnings / Unblock conditions.

Before I start an RfC, any opinions (and suggested improvement) would be very much appreciated. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 23:55, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

• Personal opinions:
  • IMO the language "with the agreement of the blocked use" is too mellow. The message must be clear that there is no wiggle space for negotiation. Something like "Administrators may offer the user a chance to be unblocked subject to a specified conditions met."

    I don't see a problem with allowing negotiation at the unblocking admin's discretion. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 02:59, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

    I don't see either, but this should not be a privilege cast in the policy. Admins are usually busy. I don't want a situation when a system-gamer starts negotiation, becomes rejected, files an appeal, etc., wasting everybody's time. Staszek Lem (talk) 03:21, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

    But that's what happens now. If I say that I won't unblock you unless you agree to a topic ban, you can disagree and hope another admin comes along and change their mind. The point of unblocking is to bring people back into the community. Admins should therefore use their discretion to discuss it with the blocked user, however there's nothing in the proposal which requires them to negotiate. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 02:29, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

  • The same about "expiration time": why negotiate?

    Consider an indef block for edit warring, if the unblocking admin is happy that a PBAN for 6 months or indef will do the job then why stop them from making that decision? Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 02:59, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

    Yes, but why negotiate the expiration time with the blocked user? Staszek Lem (talk) 03:21, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

    As I said above they don't have to negotiate, but why restrict an admin to only imposing a restriction for the same length as the block? Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 02:29, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

  • The part about "uncomfortable" is IMO redundant.

    Where is that? Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 02:59, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

    Sorry you wrote "not comfortable". IMO it is self-evident and just extra verbosity. Staszek Lem (talk) 03:21, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

    My main purpose for including that was so that it doesn't become the norm to impose them anyway, if you're comfortable without them then don't bother, and I think that needs to be in policy. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 02:29, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

  • The same "but not exceeed": redundant: when block expires there is nothing to unblock, right?

    See the point from Beeblebrox below, the unblock condition should only last as long the block they've appealed. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 02:59, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

    Sorry, my logical blunder. Staszek Lem (talk) 03:24, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

  • "Must not exceed" must be conditional: "unless grave violations blabla"; otherwise wikilawyers would want "block him for the remaining 10 hours and only then block him for a week". Also, what if a week block is exceeded by 30 minutes? I.e., if kept, make this statement reasonably approximate.

    What about changing it from must not exceed the original expiry to must not exceed the original duration (for example if unblocked from a one month block, they can be reblocked for another month. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 02:59, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

    Sorry, I was not clear. I was speaking about the case when the offender not only violates the parole (eg topic ban), but while doing so commits another violation (e.g, gross incivility). Just wonderning whether an extra clarification needed here. Staszek Lem (talk) 03:21, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

    I've added a bit. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 02:29, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

  • 'Unblock conditions may be appealed' - Redundant. Same as my first notice: no extra legalese room for negotiationismus. Only after you are cond-unblocked and behave, you may try and convince the admin to expand your privilege. But then no extra formalities would be necessary: you may edit any noiticeboards (unless forbidden, but that would mean you were really bad, so you better sit mum). Staszek Lem (talk) 02:48, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

    I don't believe that denying someone's right to appeal (for example if blocking admin says they won't remove the condition) is the 'right' thing to do or that the community will accept it. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 02:59, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

    Isn't it what is called "admin shopping"? Appeal until a "soft-hearted" admin pops up? There is a generic right to appeal the block. If the offender wants they may plead their case within the existing framework, no need for extra rule. Staszek Lem (talk) 03:21, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

    What about just "to the unblocking administrator or to AN"? Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 02:29, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

• Thank you for opening this discussion, which I do think we should be having (unlike some other discussions on this page) However, I forsee problems with the first two points:

• Sometimes, someone is blocked for repeated disruptive behavior, let's say edit warring. Edit warring blocks are often quite short, one or two days. So the admin considering unblocking could suggest a 1RR restriction, but only for two days? Why even bother?
• On the second point, who will be deciding what is proportional? Sounds like a mess waiting to happen. As the restrictions would be voluntary and the user has the right of appeal later on this seems unecessary. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:45, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

I've removed the bit about proportionality, thanks. If it's repeated misbehaviour then the blocks would be getting longer and longer as well so any unblock conditions would also be able to be longer. In the past the community has been very hesitant to give admins powers to impose restrictions on their own authority so I tried to make this reflect that. Consider this, a user is blocked twice for edit warring (second block for a week) and the reviewing admin will only unblock if they agree to an indef 1RR or ban from the article. If there is a longer term issue with the user being involved in edit warring then it would need to go ANI for a community imposed restriction outside of a normal block length. Hope may thinking makes sense. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 02:52, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Callanecc, what's normal block length? It is not unusual for admins to indef a repeat edit warrior whose editing history doesn't warrant a temporary block or going to ANI. --NeilN 21:55, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

That's a normal block length. My point was that this proposal does not and should not allow a single admin to impose a long-term or indef restriction after a short block (eg second block for a week). Instead the appeal (if no one wants to unblock without a long-term restriction) should go to ANI so that more than a single admin can decide what's needed. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 02:29, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

• "If editors breach unblock conditions they may be blocked or further restricted, but the block imposed must not exceed the original block expiry." Not enamored with this. For example, if an editor is blocked for a week for BLP violations, is unblocked on the condition they won't touch the article, why can't I block for a month if they then go ahead and commit the same BLP violation? --NeilN 14:44, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

  In that instance there discretionary sanctions which can be used, and they can be blocked for the BLP vio not just the unblock conditions. The reason I limited it to the original block length is that when a similar proposal went to the community (a while ago, don't remember specifics) there was a definitive no to allowing single admins to impose long-term restrictions on users. I'm hoping that the community will allow it in response to a block of the same length. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 02:29, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

• I agree with Neil. I also think, as Beeblebrox implied, that the unblock conditions should be able to exceed the original block expiration. Even if there are no conditions, say an editor breaches 3RR and is blocked for 48 hours. The block expires, and in they shortly restore their version of the article at issue. As far as I'm concerned, I can block them and for longer without any "agreement".--Bbb23 (talk) 22:56, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

  Yes you could because that's for something more than just breaching their unblock conditions. Just as with discretionary sanctions you can add new sanctions on top of an already existing sanction is there is fresh misconduct. I've added a bit to clarify that. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 02:29, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

• There are only really a handful of admins that handle the majority of unblock requests. It's often a lengthy process because the majority of unblock requests, the editor either fails to understand the unblock process (because they haven't read the relevant policies) or fall into WP:IDHT. They are after all (but not always) the most problematic and disruptive editors on the project. When an unblock is finally granted, very often the unblocking admin needs to check in on that editor at routine intervals. It's almost like being their case worker. I'm not saying this is the optimal solution, but it's what ends up happening. Admins need to be able to review the circumstances around a block and implement conditions whereby, hopefully, the reason for the initial block is not repeated. I think there could be an expiration time set for conditions, but it would be as open as up to one year. Sometimes admins have to deal with repeat offenders who have 3-6 previous blocks. Also, indefinite blocks would cause the additional problem of an editor having indefinite conditions set upon them. I don't think we should worry about the blocks that are one or two weeks long. If a set of conditions seem unreasonable or the editor is unwilling to agree to them, they can simply wait out the block. We really need to address long term conditions. They need to be able to be implemented and the edit needs to be free of them at a certain point. Lastly, I'm not crazy about the appeal process. We're going to run into WP:ADMINSHOP which we already experience at Category:Requests for unblock. I think if an editor doesn't like the conditions at the time of their request, they should be able to request (up to one time) for another uninvolved admin to review their unblock request. If, for some reason, we end up having the appeal process, it's going to need to be clear that whoever grants the appeal and relieves the editor of their conditions or reduces them, then must adopt the editor. The reason being is that blocking and unblocking admins are often called back to comment on repeat offenders as they're familiar with the "case". Mkdw 18:01, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

Version 2

Administrators may, with the agreement of the blocked user, impose conditions when unblocking. Unblock conditions are designed to prevent the behaviour which lead to the block occurring again (such as a page ban to prevent further edit warring).

• If the blocked user does not wish to agree with proposed unblock conditions they may post another block appeal.
• Administrators have discretion to set the expiry of unblock conditions, however:
  • Blocks which were set to expire after one year or less are to have unblock conditions expire after no more than a year,
  • Blocks with an expiry of more than a year (including indefinite) may have unblock conditions applied up to indefinitely.
• Unblock conditions may include page bans, topic bans, bans from interacting with another editor, revert restrictions, single account restrictions and other restrictions at the discretion of the unblocking administrator.
• If editors breach unblock conditions, or engage in fresh misconduct, they may be blocked or further restricted.
• After they have accepted and the user unblocked, unblock conditions may be appealed to the unblocking administrator or to AN.
• Unblock conditions should be recorded on the user's talk page (in a notice which should not be removed while the conditions are active), linked to in the unblock reason and may be noted at Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions#Final warnings / Unblock conditions.

• @Staszek Lem, Beeblebrox, NeilN, Bbb23, and Mkdw: How does this look? Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 10:40, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
• I'll be brave and go first. Substantively, I'm good with this version. I'd tinker with some of the wording, but that can be left to the end if there's a consensus for the change. Thanks, Callanecc.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:34, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
• We should mention interaction bans as an example of an unblock condition. I think there's still going to be opposition regarding the appeal process. I would go so far as to suggest that simply another unblock request should be submitted if they don't like the unblock conditions proposed the first time so another admin, familiar with the unblock process, will review and possibly offer a different set of conditions. We usually see multiple unblock requests anyway, so this appeal process will simply undergo that work plus new work at AN. The fundamental problem I've seen is that most people who request an unblock don't believe their unblock was justified in the first place. WP:AN might not work for technical reasons because they'll have to "agree" to the unblock conditions to get unblocked, and only then will be able to edit WP:AN. Mkdw 16:52, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
• I'm good with this. Mkdw's sugestions aren't bad either. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:34, 23 November 2015 (UTC).
• With respect to Mkdw's last point, we've unblocked users for the sole purpose of defending or appealing in another forum. I don't see why the user should be in a Catch-22 over this. As to adding an interaction ban, I have no strong objection to doing it, but the "may include" language is intended to be non-exhaustive. The more examples we give the less likely it will be interpreted that way.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:16, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

I've specified IBANs, primarily to limit it to one-way bans. I've also added language about not acceptin unblock conditions as that was my intention. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 21:40, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

• IMO the is duplication:
  1. "If the blocked user does not wish to agree with proposed unblock conditions they may post another block appeal."
  2. "*Unblock conditions may be appealed to the unblocking administrator or to AN."
• Other than that I support the idea to put this version into policy and proceed with its improvements from that. Staszek Lem (talk) 23:09, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

• I think the idea is that the first point is they can post another unblock request, whereas the second point is after they agree to the unblock conditions, they can later ask them to be lifted.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:11, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

• @Staszek Lem and Bbb23: I've clarified this. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 10:25, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• @Bbb23: Looks like there's enough consensus here to take this to an RfC, what were the wording changes you mention above? Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 10:25, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
• Reworded:

Administrators may, with the agreement of the blocked user, impose conditions when unblocking. Unblock conditions are designed to prevent recurrence of the behaviour that lead to the block (such as a page ban to prevent further edit warring).

• If the blocked user does not agree to the unblock conditions, they may post another block appeal.
• Administrators have discretion to set the expiry of unblock conditions, provided that:
  • The unblock conditions of blocks that expire after one year or less shall expire after no more than a year,
  • The unblock conditions of blocks that expire after more than a year (including indefinite) may expire up to indefinitely.
• Unblock conditions may include page bans, topic bans, interaction bans, revert restrictions, single account restrictions and other restrictions at the discretion of the unblocking administrator.
• If editors breach the unblock conditions or engage in fresh misconduct, they may be blocked or further restricted.
• After the blocked user has accepted the conditions and been unblocked, the conditions may be appealed only to the unblocking administrator or to AN.
• Unblock conditions shall be recorded on the user's talk page (in a notice that may not be removed while the conditions are active), linked to in the unblock reason on the user's block log, and may be noted at Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions#Final warnings / Unblock conditions.

--Bbb23 (talk) 15:19, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

A technical point: Archive-bots and tools archive discussions. Users should not be held accountable if the notice was applied to the user's talk page in a way that an archive-bot would archive it or if another editor (perhaps innocently, perhaps with mischief in mind) modified the notice in a way that an archive-bot later archived it. I recommend adding a footnote to the last condition to alert administrators to place the notice in a way that it won't be archived, such as putting it at the top of the page in a section of its own, without a "signature" line. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 15:26, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Cool-down blocks

Effects of blocking

Not sure where to pose this question. But has anyone actually studied the effects of blocking on editors? One can imagine measuring recidivism, whether the block made an area less/more productive, use of sockpuppetry for block evasion, difference between blocks of experienced users and newbie users etc. There can be many dimensions which can be studied. Kingsindian ♝♚ 00:00, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

You could also measure the person's attitude towards the English Misplaced Pages, Wikipedias (not just WMF Wikis) in general, collaborative-content-development projects in general, the WMF as an entity, and the individuals he may have thought were "behind" getting him blocked. As far as I know, no editor has gone postal as a result of being blocked, but it would not surprise me if someone, somewhere, has gotten angry and took it out on those around him, either verbally or worse (just the same as a person with such tendencies might lash out if they got fired from their job, etc.). On the flip side, you could also hypothetically measure the positive effects of being blocked, such as a person realizing they are a wiki-addict and getting help for their addictive personality, or realizing that their own behavior was what caused their block and changing their behavior and any attitudes that were behind that behavior. As a very small data point in that direction, being blocked and re-instated has inspired me to put getting a Valiant Return Triple Crown on my bucket list. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 00:31, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

I am not looking for anecdotal evidence (though I don't mind hearing it), but a study, based on some methdology, however flawed. Kingsindian ♝♚ 02:14, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

I don't know of such a study, but I'd be interested in seeing one. Related but an aside: I'd also love to know evidence about the effectiveness of certain blocking strategies, esp. on new/non-logged-in users. How often does someone who gets three or four warnings then become a good editor within the next six months, for instance? Or are one or two warnings sufficient grounds for an immediate longish-term block. -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 14:05, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

I found this book which has some propositions in chapter 4, though I don't find anything specifically studying blocking on Misplaced Pages. One could probably use some kind of research on online communities as a starting point. Perhaps something for the WMF to do? Kingsindian ♝♚ 14:52, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

The blocking policy has to be relaxed in order for Chinese users to contribute

Now that the China's government blocks access to all of Misplaced Pages sites, it is in dire need that this policy be modified to accommodate Chinese users (like me) who must access and edit Misplaced Pages articles with an IP originating from a VPN or proxy server. Netheril96 (talk) 01:03, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

 Already done see WP:IPBE. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:28, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Evading global locks

Should WP:EVADE address the issue of individuals creating new accounts to avoid global locks when the locked account isn't currently blocked here? And if so, what should it say? Some such accounts can safely be gotten rid of (e.g. accounts operated by users who are in Category:Wikipedians banned by the WMF), but if a person isn't WMF-wide banned and isn't currently subject to sanctions here at en:wp, should WP:EVADE be considered to apply to such a person or not? Nyttend (talk) 21:19, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

For "EVADE" purposes, a globally-locked account should be treated as if it were locally blocked on all projects including this one. Whether "EVADE" applies depends on the reason for the block: Some block reasons allow the editor to create a new account and edit with it without triggering EVADE. Others block reasons allow him to use an existing second account or edit without logging in without triggering EVADE. Other types of blocks only allow editing of certain pages, such as block-appeal pages, without triggering EVADE (these amount to a partial ban). Other types of blocks amount to a site-ban and don't allow any editing without triggering EVADE. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 03:14, 17 December 2015 (UTC)