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Fixing images below the default size

This used to be deprecated in the MOS, and it certainly should be (sorry, can't provide a link - I'd be grateful if anyone can). I don't want to re-open the vexed issue of fixing at higher than the default 220px, which we currently deprecate, but like many people I routinely do this, at least for main images in the lead. The case against smaller-than-default images seems much simpler - is there ever a good reason for doing this, for images with a typical aspect ratio? I can't think of one, and have for years removed all examples of "120px" etc that I see, & I don't remember anyone ever complaining. There is an exception needed for images eg 10 times taller than they are wide, but I think the existing text covers that fine. However it gives the clear impression that too small images are fine with the MOS.

Proposals

• A) At the moment we say: "As a general rule, images should not be set to a larger fixed size than the 220px default (users can adjust this in their preferences). If an exception to the general rule is warranted, forcing an image size to be either larger or smaller than the 220px default is done by placing a parameter in the image coding."

I propose changing this to "As a general rule, images should not be set to a larger or smaller fixed size..." (new text in bold). Any objections?

• B) I'd also like to add something specifying that this applies to multiple images, which seem (unfortunately in my view) to be fashionable at the moment. So at the end of the list of bullet points, I'd like to add:

"* Multiple image templates should not be be over-used, and each image should appear at at least the default image size."

Please comment on these below, specifying A & B. Thanks Johnbod (talk) 21:57, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Discussion

• Fixed image sizes should be avoided in general, but there are cases where they're appropriate, such as in tables. Exceptions should be exceptional, though, and I think they are covered by the "as a general rule" wording—so, basically, I agree with what you've presented. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 22:24, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
• I've seen fixed images done on infobox images all the time. I agree that outside tables (which infoboxes technically are) fixing the size should be avoided. --MASEM (t) 22:43, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

  Images in infoboxes count as lead section images, which have always been permitted to be larger - up to 300px wide. As regards images in actual tables, see Rolling stock of the Bluebell Railway#Steam locomotives, where the images are 200px wide, including the upright ones - which makes some table rows excessively tall; compare List of Great Central Railway locomotives and rolling stock#Mainline steam locomotives (175px) or Rolling stock of the Kent & East Sussex Railway (heritage) (150px). --Redrose64 (talk) 22:53, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Can we get away from the usual issue of whether fixed sizes are good, bad, or downright evil, to address the question of whether this page should continue to use language that implies that images fixed small are better than images fixed large? I agree table images are another exception. Johnbod (talk) 03:23, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. I would oppose both as instruction creep, especially the multiple-image template suggestion, not because I like small images (the opposite is true), but because these decisions should be left to the people writing the page, not imposed centrally. Editors forget that the MoS is just a guideline, and go around trying to force it on articles in which they otherwise have no involvement. Every additional rule creates another weapon. This makes the MoS strongly disliked (e.g. see the recent discussions about creating a central style board), which is unfortunate because it's a very helpful document for style advice. Sarah (SV) 00:28, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

As my comment above. Johnbod (talk) 03:23, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

• Comment. This discussion has caused me to discover relative sizing (|upright=) which I didn't know about before but seems preferable to absolute sizing in almost all cases. I had thought that gif animations and bitmap images smaller than the default size needed absolute sizes to allow the animation to work and prevent being resized to larger than the resolution of the image, respectively, but if that was ever true it doesn't seem to be any more. However, there doesn't seem to be a way to use |upright= within {{multiple image}}, and there are probably other cases where absolute sizing is still important, so I wouldn't want to see a blanket prohibition. On the other hand, the same reasons that larger-than-default absolute sizes are bad make smaller-than-default sizes bad as well, so expanding the recommendation about fixed sizes to include smaller-than-default ones seems harmless. If we're going to make this change, it would be simpler to say simply that "as a general rule images should not be used with fixed sizes". The part about whether the size is larger or smaller than the default is a red herring and should be left out; why is using a fixed size equal to the default any better of an idea than the other two cases?—David Eppstein (talk) 00:38, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
  • I agree with Mr Epstein—the wording should be more like "As a general rule, images should not be set to a larger or smaller fixed size..." (I think that addresses SV's concerns about instruction creep as well) Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 03:45, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

I have used smaller-than-default-size images on occasions, when the infobox equates or exceeds in length the text on the left. I figure that a smaller image facing that long infobox will be less offensive to the anti-sandwitching purists who believe that no images should ever face a sacrosanct infobox. The only other solution is to place the image below the infobox, and out of view --Lubiesque (talk) 12:07, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

{{Images}}

template:Images has been proposed for deletion, see Misplaced Pages:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2015_October_12#Template:Images -- 70.51.44.60 (talk) 03:45, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Left placement - inaccurate guidance

In most cases, images should be right justified on pages, which is the default placement.

To my ears, "most cases" means well upwards of 50%, probably at least 75%. If this statement reflects community consensus, why do so many good articles (GA) use both left and right placement? Many of those that don't only have one or two images. The above statement is closely followed by:

Multiple images in the same article can be staggered right-and-left.

In other words, the guidance here is: If you think x is better, do it. If not, don't do it. This is not guidance, and the effect would be the same if you removed both statements. Clearly, the community likes the second statement more than the first, and the guidance should be modified to reflect community consensus, regardless of how we feel about the issue individually (this is not a request for opinions about left-right placement). ―Mandruss ☎ 04:49, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Mandruss, did you become aware of this matter because it is addressed on my talk page? On my talk page, I directed Hike The Monicas here to this talk page to discuss this topic. If he is reading this now, he should not continue that discussion at my talk page, especially since it got off track.

As for your "hy do so many good articles (GA) use both left and right placement?" question, many WP:Good and WP:Featured articles do not comply with each and every guideline, especially when editors go in and change the articles to be a certain way well after the article reached its WP:Good or WP:Featured status. For this case, what proof is there that "the community likes the second statement more than the first"? And why would you start this section and then state "this is not a request for opinions about the issue"? People are obviously going to weigh in on this matter here at this talk page if they want to. Flyer22 (talk) 05:02, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

It used to be the case that articles with all images on the right would be criticised at FA, & pressured to change. I'm not sure this still applies. Now screen sizes are so varied, the ideal image placement is in rather a mess. Johnbod (talk) 12:31, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

• I knew of nothing about this on your talk page. Sometimes people think about the same issues independently from each other.
• Your point about changes after GA approval is valid, although there must be a ton of that going on. I guess there's no way to really know, short of polling a large number of GA reviewers.
• Maybe an RfC is needed.
• Being clear about my intent here is not an attempt to dictate what is discussed.
• Your tone, frankly, seems a bit confrontational, accusatory, and un-Wikipedian. I came in good faith with an issue that I feel is important, not to get involved in a fight. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:23, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Apparently, my tone these days naturally comes off as "a bit confrontational, accusatory, and un-Wikipedian" to certain editors; that was not my intention in this case. In my experience, though, from what I see on this site day in and out, confrontational and accusatory are very Wikipedian. Flyer22 (talk) 08:01, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

The guidance is to place images on the right, unless there is a reason to place them on the left, such as to stagger images, to avoid stacked images, or to have people face the text, and so on. DrKay (talk) 10:59, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

If that's the intended guidance, it's far from clear. Also, many editors believe that judicious use of left-right placement is more visually attractive, and they would consider that a reason. If the guidance excludes that reason, it should say so. ―Mandruss ☎ 12:13, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

It could be sharpened up. The guidance probably has articles with few images mainly in mind. In particular it might say that the lead image should normally be on the right, which is a very strong convention. Johnbod (talk) 12:31, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

I believe that "most" is meant to mean "more than 50%", but not necessarily much more than 50%. For an article with a few images and a lot of text, then having three on the right and one on the left (Mandruss's example of 75%) would be reasonable. However, it's necessary to take all the facts and circumstances into mind, e.g., the presence of an abnormally long infobox.

Is there a difficult dispute going on here? This seems like something that is usually resolved by editors talking it through. And, since someone mention GAs above, then I note that compliance with this guideline is not on the Good article criteria. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:41, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Good point as to GA criteria, and I retract that argument. I was under the mistaken impression that GA represents a de facto community consensus on this issue. Sure, we can go with local consensus on this, which will be unknown to or ignored by many, and will endlessly ping-pong back and forth as the local mix of editors changes. I was hoping to avoid all that as unnecessary. Regardless, the current guidance here does not facilitate a local consensus as it can be used to support either position with pretty much equal strength. Like I said, guidance that nets out as, "Do what you think is best" is not useful guidance and only complicates matters and contributes to instruction creep. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:09, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

Band timeline images

A discussion is happening at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Musicians#Create Member Section/Timeline Standards related to standards around generated timelines. The suggestions seem to violate the suggested size guidelines. It would probably be best if interested parties could comment to either support the 800 pixel width suggestions or give reasons against them. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:43, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Parenthesis

Are image captions supposed to be in parenthesis? Is this the proper caption "(c.1908)" or is this the proper caption "Tiffany circa 1908".

I'd put "Tiffany c. 1908" myself. Having it all in parentheses is odd. Johnbod (talk) 12:35, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

"Articles about ethnic groups or similarly large human populations should not be illustrated by a gallery of images of group members"

Sandstein added the following to the page: "Articles about ethnic groups or similarly large human populations should not be illustrated by a gallery of images of group members, because selecting them is normally original research, and often contentious." It was added per the WP:Consensus formed in this discussion. But that close only concerns ethnic/"race" matters, not all topics about large human populations. This is why I stated at Talk:African Americans, "I'm not sure how the WP:Consensus from that discussion will hold up, given that we still have such galleries at the Man and Woman articles, etc., which are just as subjective, but it's the WP:Consensus for now." Sandstein's wording here at the guideline is broader than the aforementioned close. Furthermore, I don't see how the ethnic/"racial" images are normally original research; in some cases they are, but they are most often based on what WP:Reliable sources state. For example, the inclusion of Mariah Carey as African American, which resulted in a big dispute at Talk:African Americans, is based on sources; this is also made clear by this RfC at Talk:Mariah Carey.

I'll alert Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style to this matter for wider input. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:56, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

My impression from the RfC was that while the question posed was about ethnic groups, the arguments advanced were such that they applied to all large human populations (OR, contentiousness, and the question of whether a select few individuals can visually represent a large group). But if others don't see it that way, I'd have no problem with striking " or similarly large human populations" here.  Sandstein  22:02, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

A possibly useful (local) consensus was reached in this discussion at Hungarians around this issue. Basically, when individuals are specifically discussed and their relevance described, portraits complement the text. But an arbitrary gallery of individuals used simply to represent the group as a whole adds little value and invariably breeds conflict over which individuals should be included. Probably won't defuse all disputes around this issue, but this approach puts the onus on those who insist on including an image of a given person to actually develop the article to include that person's relevance. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 22:08, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support a broad application of this principle (i.e., Oppose removal, though I'm open to some adjustments). These "galleries of faces" are not useful and do nothing but generate strife of multiple sorts: Whether a give person qualifies, whether they're exemplary, whether a mixed-background person is having one aspect of their background overemphasized (the central issue in the Carey debate, and one that is not resolved despite suggestions above that it is), who gets to be included, whether the mix is balanced (modern and historical, arts and sciences, political and non-political, male and female, etc., etc.), how many to include, and so on. It's also lead to really excessive treatments (some of the historical versions of the article White people were pretty crazy). These infobox galleries really don't do anything useful for the reader. More often than not they simply distract, by injecting "why is that person included here?" skepticism into their reading experience. I agree with the above that inclusion of people in the text is more helpful, where the context requires a sourced justification for their inclusion. The purpose of infoboxes is to summarize the gist of articles, not to serve a back door for the insertion of OR and trivia. In the end, this is very much like flag icons, and it shares many of the same rationales against inclusion, especially PoV-pushing overemphasis and a propensity to generate frequent conflict that has little to do with making the encyclopedia better.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  12:28, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
• Support the general principle. The wording could be adjusted to more clearly reflect the idea that it is the "galleries of notables" that are inappropriate; individual images of representative (non-notable) samples from a population are ok. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:46, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

Sandstein, Laszlo Panaflex, SMcCandlish and David Eppstein, my thing is: The current wording is overly broad when the consensus discussion was not that broad, no matter that Sandstein states that he interpreted it that way. The word similarly can be interpreted in different ways. I noted that "I don't see how the ethnic/'racial' images are normally original research; in some cases they are, but they are most often based on what WP:Reliable sources state." This means that I don't like the implication in the current wording that it's usually WP:OR that's the issue; that's not the usual issue. If a source exists calling the person a certain ethnicity/"race," then that's not WP:OR. The usual issue is people preferring certain celebrities/notables to other celebrities/notables and thinking that one person is more deserving of inclusion than the other, which includes feeling that one person looks more white or black, etc. than the other person. It has more to do with POV than WP:OR. And this does not only happen with notables. Stating that this gallery matter should only apply to notables will not stop the same POV-pushing from happening to no-names being included in such a gallery. Furthermore, I don't see how one can regulate this. For example, at the White people article, images of notables are still currently there, even after I left this note. If people see that one article (like White people) gets to have such images, they will feel that the other article (for example, Black people) should as well. If it's a gallery of no-names, someone will eventually add a notable person, and then someone will add another and another notable person. And I reiterate that this same type of POV-pushing has happened at the Man and Woman articles. In the case of the Woman article, see this discussion and keep scrolling down; the idea of including a trans woman is constantly at debate at that article's talk page. I don't see that these image matters will be regulated too successfully, if successfully at all, especially if it is applied to more than just ethnicity and "race." And another important aspect is that if an editor feels they are only allowed to add one lead image in cases such as these, that one lead image will become a source of contention as not being representative enough. The desire people have for lead images, for those images to be representative, and to include notables instead of no-names, will likely overrule this guideline. It will be another guideline that barely anyone follows. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:13, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

True, the original discussion was not that broad; that's why we're having another discussion now about applying the same principles more broadly. As for OR, I'm not so much worried about that (as we can generally find sources attributing membership of people in these groups) and more worried about two other issues: (1) the fact that the notable people of a group are not representative of that group, almost by definition, since they're the ones that stand out, and (2) the often-contentious issue of who to include in a space that is generally too small to list all notable members and where many editors are likely to have political reasons for pushing to include some specific people and exclude others. —David Eppstein (talk) 22:22, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The fact that the RfC wasn't as broad as what's contemplated now is why we're having the discussion – to see if there's consensus to extend it. The fact that the consensus might not extent that far isn't an argument against the proposition, it's a precondition of it. I can attest to quite a number of NOR issues being raised in debates about this stuff, though I agree NPOV is more commonly implicated. Both being implicated is significant, and even if only one of them was, it would still be reason enough to act against this misuse of infoboxes. If people think that some kind of "gallery of qualifying faces" is needed, they can use the Template:Ntag feature, in the main body of the article, and provide source citations at each entry in it, to forestall disputes and confusion. I entirely agree with you that limiting these infobox galleries to "notables" would not fix the issue. How would we be including non-notables anyway, if there aren't any articles about them to link to; just pasting in random faces from Commons pictures? I'm skeptical that inclusion of non-notables is a big issue, though I have not trawled every single discussion about these things, so I may have missed something. I agree that there will always be debates about images included in such articles. If they're kept out of a tight-grid infobox, and required to be sourced in the article, this greatly reduces the potential for POV, OR, and related disputes about these pictures. For example, the obvious way to deal with including a transwoman at the Woman article is to have a section for that (a short one linking to the main article on that, per WP:SUMMARY) with one or more photos that pertain, in that section. No issue of "should there be a TG woman in the infobox" every arises in such a case. It's all a WP:COMMONSENSE matter to me: If people are fighting about some style matter that is not actually important to the encyclopedia, look for a way around it by removing what they're fighting about since it's not essential – like taking a toy away from two children who can't stop squabbling over who gets to play with it. A potential solution for an article like African Americans is to rotate who appears there. We could probably set up a script that auto-rotated them from a pool of images, though that might require a Lua module. Or just nominate a new image of the month, or whatever. For such articles, having one male and one female for representativeness purposes should work, but we don't need a PoV-pushing and OR-infested large collection of images there being included for dubious reasons.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  22:34, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

(ec) There's always the possibility that guidelines are not followed. But at least in the cases covered by the RfC there was the active desire of many editors to get rid of these galleries because of the problems associated with them, so I think it's worthwile to note the principle here. That doesn't change that case-by-case dicussions may need to be had for many pages. Regarding OR, I too read the discussion as highlighting the OR problem of how to decide who to include, rather than whether certain individuals belong to the group, which is more often verifiable.  Sandstein  22:35, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

Per what I stated above, I just don't see this guideline working. There are guidelines that are commonly followed, and then there are the ones commonly ignored. If this guideline were to work, I agree that it would obviously result in a lot less arguments. As for the case-by-case basis matter, that will turn into a "Since that article has a gallery for the lead, this one can too." argument. Again, see my White people article vs. Black people article example above; that aspect will become a reality if the White people article is allowed to have images. As for original research, the WP:OR policy is based on the WP:Verifiability policy; I don't interpret it as being any broader than that. Regardless, per what I stated above, I think that the wording you added needs improvement. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:25, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

What will almost always be OR is the selection of which images are included and the resulting implication that these are the most notable. Very unlikely to find a RS that says "these are the 16 most notable Xs." So the resulting selection is necessarily OR and generally POV as well. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 00:31, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Laszlo Panaflex, I see what you mean, but I don't interpret the WP:OR policy as policing infobox images in that way, except if an editor were to state, "These images should be in the infobox because they are the most notable people according to reliable sources.", or something similar to that. Otherwise, we freely select infobox images, and, per WP:Pertinence, have more leeway with them. Of course, no source is going to state that we need to have a certain number of people in a Misplaced Pages infobox. In the case of people, a person generally should not be included as white, black, etc. unless a reliable source validates that inclusion. I state "generally" because there is the case of no-names, who are not likely to have sources verifying their ethnicity or "race," and some people will argue that a person is obviously white or black, etc.; I also state "generally" because stock photos have been discussed at WP:Med before, and some editors still are not sure if we should have an image of a person looking like they are suffering from a certain medical condition if they aren't; see Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Medicine/Archive 67#Misplaced Pages to promote stock health photography. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:54, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose removal If you have issue with one of the images, get consensus to change that one image. Ethnic looks are diverse, one image does not do the trick. Unless you are going to devise some ethnic test for Misplaced Pages, like South Africa's "one drop of blood" law or Germany's "1/8 Jewish or less" law, people have the right to self identify for their ethnicity and their sexual orientation. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 22:49, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ), your comment seems to be arguing against Sandstein's addition. If so, I think that that using "Oppose" for your comment is better than using "Keep." Also take note that I did not have a problem with the result of the aforementioned discussion (other than it seeming to assert that WP:OR is the main issue). My issues with the matter are noted above. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:25, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Note that Richard Arthur Norton responded with this edit. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:31, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

• I would think that the advice to avoid including any photo of a person of race/ethnicity/gender/whatever that is identifiable in these galleries should be avoided for reasons stated above (editors pushing to include a specific person of note), but I'm not sure if outright removal is needed. If you eliminate the use of notable persons, you are left with images to select from that are 1) free and 2) verified to be people that are part of that group, and then the choice should then become a matter of presentation of what are the best images of this combined set. Which while still a potential for editorial dispute will far less be a problem as when notable persons are involved. Obviously, in considering race and ethnicity, editors should strive to cover both genders and all ages with the available pictures, though there's no need to force a specific balance (50/50 male/female, 25/50/25 young/adult/senior etc) just as long as it looks good. --MASEM (t) 00:54, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support. In my experience these galleries end up being nothing more than "Look how wonderful our ethnicity is to have produced such marvellous people !!" They are breeding grounds for original research, improper synthesis, and POV pushing. --Taivo (talk) 01:09, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Taivo, what about the broadness of the current wording and other issues I addressed above? This discussion is more so about the current wording than whether or not we should have a gallery of ethnicity images as the lead image; that matter was already resolved. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:36, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

If you notice my comment is not at all restricted to galleries in the lead or the infobox. I said, "galleries " without restriction to where they occur in the article. Just because someone moved them from the top of the article to the middle or bottom doesn't negate any of my comments about them. As to whether this principle should extend beyond ethnicity articles, that matter was also addressed in the RfC when it was pointed out that "ethnicity" could not be narrowly construed since it was often impossible to distinguish between ethnicity and nationality. The very same problems with OR, SYNTH, and NPOV apply to other articles about groups of people. --Taivo (talk) 03:12, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

My point is that the current wording is not just for ethnicity, "race" or nationality; it's for any group of people presented as the lead image for the infobox. This means the Man and Woman articles, and other similar articles, as well. I focused on the lead image aspect because the text in the guideline is currently about that, as a result of the consensus discussion. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:08, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Comment, I believe images should only be used in the infoboxes for national groups (such as Americans, French people, Australlians etc.). This way anyone, no matter what original ethnic background(s), can be included. While it may be subjective as to who may be most notable to include in infoboxes, generally a consensus as to who may be included is often times more accurate than not. It is helpful to immediately see some prominent and historic figures (founding fathers, wealthest individual, most sold record labels etc.) as their inclusions should remain aribitrary. It is at a disservice to the reader, to reach a page of a certain national group and not to be able to immediately associate someone with that group to the name of the article. Savvyjack23 (talk) 14:01, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

The problem with distinguishing ethnicity articles from nationality articles is that there is often no line between them, for example, is Ukrainians an ethnicity article or a nationality article? It's impossible to really distinguish between the two and endless discussions on the Talk Page revealed this utter confusion. The RfC clearly conflated ethnicity and nationality in the discussion. And the same issues of OR, SYNTH, and NPOV are relevant to nationality articles as they are to ethnicity articles. --Taivo (talk) 16:44, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support Per Taivo and others. I´ve not participated much in these discussions myself, but read several, Americans (which dropped the gallery on it´s own before this), African Americans, Yemenite Jews, etc. There are always amazing, worthy (infamous, too) people left out and sooner or later this will be commented on again. And again. And again. And then there are the "That person would be insulted to be called that ethnicity" and "That ethnicity is insulted by being represented by that person." arguments. Gaaahhh. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:23, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

• Comment I opened a thread here and suggested the elimination of the infobox gallery from Woman article. 64.62.219.165 (talk) 17:07, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support - The consensus to remove the ethnic/race/nationality based galleries should be widened to include other specific human groups e.g., Christian. Those galleries are just meant for presentation rather than educational purposes. We need to deal with it once and for all. STSC (talk) 17:55, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose This sounds like people poushing their own politically correct ideas here instead of sticking with WP:NOTCENSORED. If you have a problem then go with Misplaced Pages policy such as verifiability rather than because it causes trouble on Misplaced Pages. Dmcq (talk) 19:28, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Savvyjack23, Gråbergs Gråa Sång, STSC and Dmcq, liked I asked, Taivo, "what about the broadness of the current wording and other issues I addressed above? This discussion is more so about the current wording than whether or not we should have a gallery of ethnicity images as the lead image; that matter was already resolved." I added, "My point is that the current wording is not just for ethnicity, 'race' or nationality; it's for any group of people presented as the lead image for the infobox. This means the Man and Woman articles, and other similar articles, as well." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:08, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

If it is not obvious to you from what I said above I disagree with the blanket removal of such composite images from any any type article on the basis of " because selecting them is normally original research, and often contentious". Misplaced Pages has policies for dealing with OR and contentious is not a reason to remove anything as per WP:NOTCENSORED. Dmcq (talk) 20:14, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Okay, Dmcq. And, STSC, sorry about pinging you above to answer more so on topic; I see that you did by noting that you support the guideline being widened. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:17, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

I hope that my answer was clear. I support extending the consensus to cover any group of humans, where galleries of famous people (or fictitious people) have been created in infoboxes. They are nothing but magnets for OR, SYNTH, and POV pushing. --Taivo (talk) 21:16, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Flyer, I support broadening (from the rfc version) per the current text in the guideline: "Articles about ethnic groups or similarly large human populations". Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:27, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Grabergs you deleted my response when you added yours. BE MORE CAREFUL ABOUT YOUR EDITING --Taivo (talk) 23:19, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support per rationales already supplied by Taivo, Laszlo Panaflex, SMcCandlish, et al. I'm not going to reiterate the copious arguments I've presented on multiple articles and the RfC as to gratuitous galleries of notables. The White people, Man and Woman articles are testimonials as to the absurdism of such galleries. Head shots of 'notables', plus partial shots of statues and other artist's interpretations with allusions to boobs are readily accepted as representative... of what? Oh, but, while WP:NOTCENSORED has been invoked in arguments, it hasn't been invoked for this form of bizarre depiction of what constitutes some of the most obviously defining physical features that differentiate the female of the species from the male of the species (uh-oh, do I hear the rumblings of 'no naughty bits' coming on?). Shall we get our grand-kiddies to draw some pictures of men and women? All I've been able to establish from the "Man" and "Woman" infoboxes is that some women wear paint on their faces, and that men tend to have their hair short. Are we assuming that readers have only been on this planet long enough to figure out that we're not deer or elephants? Broaden the scope, please. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:12, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

• Comment: Sandstein, per what SMcCandlish and I stated above about WP:Original research not being the main problem, do you mind either of us or someone else tweaking the wording in that respect? Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:46, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
  • SMcCandlish can speak for himself, of course, but that's not how I read his remarks. My own remarks about OR were limited to the question of whether individuals could be documented to belong to a group (not usually a problem); however, I agree with the proposed wording that *selection* of individuals as being the most representative ones is definitely problematic with respect to original research. Given your filibustering here, I'm skeptical that your "tweaking" is likely to match the general sense of the discussion, so maybe it would be a better idea to be specific about the wording improvement you would like to make rather than asking for license to change the wording ad libitum. —David Eppstein (talk) 00:10, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Since SMcCandlish understands what I mean more often than not and we can have long, drawn out debates together while others will categorize our commentary as WP:Too long; didn't read, I would prefer that he speak for himself. There was no filibustering on my part. And I asked the question once (my "23:46, 6 January 2016 (UTC)" post above), and I indeed meant it as one of us proposing wording here at the talk page first. If people want to remove these galleries, I could not care less. But I do care about following consensus correctly and getting the wording right. I also care about not creating guidelines that people are not likely to follow. I made all of this clear above. And, indeed, people are already objecting to this guideline. SMcCandlish stated above, "I can attest to quite a number of NOR issues being raised in debates about this stuff, though I agree NPOV is more commonly implicated. Both being implicated is significant, and even if only one of them was, it would still be reason enough to act against this misuse of infoboxes." I stated above, "I don't like the implication in the current wording that it's usually WP:OR that's the issue; that's not the usual issue. If a source exists calling the person a certain ethnicity/'race,' then that's not WP:OR. The usual issue is people preferring certain celebrities/notables to other celebrities/notables and thinking that one person is more deserving of inclusion than the other, which includes feeling that one person looks more white or black, etc. than the other person. It has more to do with POV than WP:OR. And this does not only happen with notables." And that is what I mean. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:25, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

It's certainly a WP:POV issue when notables who are perceived to be notorious (i.e., Mussolini for the Italians gallery) are rejected based on the desire to only present those who are deemed to be positive, virtuous representatives of an ethnic group. As an addendum, why is Mother Teresa in the gallery of women in preference to Jiang Qing? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:47, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Iryna Harpy, I clearly agree about the POV issues. Per what I stated here and here, I just don't view the WP:OR policy as some others here do. To me, it's like stating that putting together a collage or gallery of anything is WP:OR because of editor selection. And if that's the case, we might as well get rid of collages and galleries altogether. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:54, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

To be clear on this, Flyer22, are we still talking about infoboxes (or collages/galleries placed above infoboxes and usurping the text based information and links in the infoboxes)? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:02, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

I thought it was just about the matter of collages or galleries presented in infoboxes, but looking at this discussion and the one below it, I see that it's broader than that. From what I can tell, the current guideline is against any such presentation; so, yes, that's a no to "galleries placed above infoboxes and usurping the text based information and links in the infoboxes." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:08, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

I definitely understood the aforementioned close to mean "no collages or galleries of people should be presented as a lead image for ethnicity/racial topics." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:11, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

@Flyer22 Reborn: I've thought on this over lunch - just don't ask me what I ate because I didn't pay attention - and it seems that it's being stretched to an unknown quantity decision. Ultimately, the "White people", "Woman", and the "Man" articles are COMMONSENSE arguments. Per WP:PERTINENCE, the galleries/collages (particularly using wikilinks to articles on notable people, works of art, etc.) detract from the content of the article rather than enhance it. A Google image search would yield a better cross-section of the subject (AKA WP:TITLE) of the article, therefore 'editorial discretion' (as has been invoked on the "Woman" article) is a non-argument for any editor du jour picking out their own selection of images peripheral to the substance of the article.

As to how far this should extend, and whether wires have been crossed regarding the intent in the heat of the interpretation/misinterpretation of where we're actually up to, doesn't really seem to have been established. I'm developing another Misplaced Pages-induced migraine. Let's see whether it doesn't become a little more focussed once the initial backlash has died down a bit. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:27, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

In reply to Flyer22 Reborn above, I agree with what David Eppstein wrote.  Sandstein  08:05, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Since twice requested to speak for myself on this: I don't agree that OR is less of a problem than POV when it comes to these things. It's a less frequent issue, but often a more severe one, leading to more protracted debate, so it evens out. Analogy: If I have eight broken fingers and one broken leg, I shouldn't seek treatment only for the fingers.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  15:11, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose Removal with knobs on WP:IAR is supposedly a pillar of[REDACTED] and[REDACTED] is supposed to be not WP:NOTCENSORED. You'll never eliminate controversy over what material to include on[REDACTED] as its written by human beings and they'll always find something to fight about; however stupid. More and more rules to eliminate areas of controversy will just move the problem around. So a bunch of you with a common pet peeve got together and made a new rule and are now proceeding to run round[REDACTED] deleting content, chanting "we've got a consensus to do this", well to be frank, you're no better than those who'd argue ad nauseum that Mariah Carey absolutely must be in a gallery. WCM_email 00:51, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support - My earlier comments did not specify a vote, so I’ll clarify here that I support the broad wording of this policy. Where images are used to show characteristics of a group, they should be tightly circumspect and strictly sourced; galleries tend to be neither. It doesn’t seem to me to matter whether the primary problem is OR or POV; as I illustrated above, the two often go together. Bottom line, these galleries add little educational value while breeding endless and unnecessary conflict. Better to provide a tool to remove them entirely, while putting the onus on development of the page to demonstrate the notability of members of the group. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 01:14, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support removal for many of the same reasons given above and because I think it's going to be hard(er) to implement this kind of thing unless it's done across the board for all such infoboxes, such as the ones for religious groups like Christian, British Jews, Maronites, Antiochian Greek Christians, Mormons, etc. Such articles are subject to same problems discussed in the RfC that led to WP:NOETHNICGALLERIES and it should make no difference whether the article uses {{infobox ethnic group}}, {{infobox religious group}} or {{infobox any other type of group}} at all. I also think wording should be added which specifically refers to user-created single-file montages like File:Greatest Chrisitans.jpg being used in "Christian". Images should be incorporated into the article itself in places where they are contextually relevant. There are 72 people pictured in the infobox for "Christians" and I couldn't find a single one that was mentioned elsewhere in the article. That kind of thing seems strange to me, but it also unfortunately seems to be more of the norm when it comes to such galleries. -- Marchjuly (talk) 08:54, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support broad interpretation. Other "people group" articles will be prone to identical or similar problems as pure "ethnic group" articles: inclusion criteria (person NN growing up as a citizen of nation A, becoming famous for something as a citizen of nation B and then living most of her life in retirement as a citizen of nation C, or person MM living all his life in state D, but outside what are the current borders of said state), selection criteria (OR and POV) and problems of representativeness (are famous persons of group X really typical for the group?). In addition, the borderline between the types of articles is fuzzy: Some articles are covering both ethnicity and citizenship, others are focussing on one or the other.

Another thing: This edit summary suggests that the text would have to cover "in or in connection with the infobox". --T*U (talk) 14:45, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

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