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Archives Click below to see prior discussions.
May 27, 2006 June 17, 2006 July 5, 2006 July 14, 2006 August 6, 2006

Implementation of policy

As it is non-negotiable to work with policy, it might be an idea to kick off with one, which is easy, namely VERIFY. I wonder if there is any material in the article which is not verified with a reliable source, as any editor is entitled to remove that. The page is protected at the moment, but you can copy and paste anything you want to remove, which is not verified ,onto this page, so that will give someone else to a chance to find a source for it. Tyrenius 02:13, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

OK, if anyone wants to keep the statements listed as not verified, please provide a verifiable reference underneath each one individually. If there is an existing reference in the article which covers it, you can of course use that. Tyrenius 14:06, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I've just had a look through the discussion to date, and I'm very pleased with the way it's going, as this will help to improve the article and also highlight working practices to show where the some of the editing difficulties occur. My observation is that there is a meeting point which can be achieved by adjustment on both sides. More flexibility is needed on sources, in particular the use of Ignatieff's own site for more prosaic aspects of his CV. More precision by adherence to the known facts is needed on how these are then stated. If we can get this list nailed down, those changes can be made and this discussion archived. Tyrenius 13:06, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Preparing these points for the article

These points need to be sorted out now. Either:

• 1) Verification has been provided so that should be indicated and it is no longer an issue. If the verification is Ignatieff's site for factual material, then that is acceptable.
• 2) No verification at all: item should be marked as such
• 3) Verification but statement needs to be modified to accord with it. Please suggest modified text.

I am looking to good faith and a collaborative attitude from all from now on. I hope there won't be any sniping and point scoring, brought on by the pressure of it all. However, if there is, I will be pleased to assist with giving the editor a short break from the stresses of editing.

Tyrenius 20:04, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

/Storage

I have put all the existing debate into a temporary storage page (it will be properly archived later), where it will count as defunct. Anything from that page can be copied to this page, but please leave the other page intact. Only items on this page will be considered still relevant. Below is the format to follow, so that a coherent conversation can be followed. Indenting should be with : not with *. It's best not to indent too much or the width of the text gets very narrow.

EXAMPLE OF LAYOUT

Ballistic missile defence

Also controversial for many Liberals

I suggest changing to "Also controversial for a few Liberals". My reference is - Bloggs, Fred (2006), "Ignatieff's ampaigns", Canada Times July 26, 2006. This says, "A few Liberals objected to". User:Abc.

I think it should read then, "Also objected to by a few Liberals". User:xyz

How about "A few Liberals objected to". User:Hij

That's fine with me. User:Abc

OK. User:Abc

Agreed new text: A few Liberals objected to

Background

Voices on Channel 4

Delete this as there is no reference. User:Abc

Ballistic missile defence 2

Ignatieff has proclaimed

Change to: "Ignatieff has stated". User:Abc

END OF LAYOUT EXAMPLE

Introduction

Canadian Scholar

change to "He is an academic with a PhD from Harvard" per discussionOttawaman 23:40, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

As long as the adjective Canadian is used elsewhere to describe Ignatieff (which he is by birth, citizenship and residency), then I'm fine with this change. --Hamiltonian 19:21, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I strongly oppose removing his nationality. It is something that is included in nearly every bio article that is not a stub. I think that with holding it in this case would read as a POV omission. --JGGardiner 20:52, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

No thought of removing his nationality; as Hamiltonian states, we include "Canadian" elsewhere. Ottawaman 22:17, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I only meant from the intro, which was the section in question. Obviously whatever we put there will have to be included elsewhere, including where he got his PhD. But you haven't given a reason why you want to change it. Including the nationality as in "X is a Canadian Y" is virtually standard here and I don't see a reason presented for why we should deviate from that. --JGGardiner 22:54, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Please review lengthy discussion re; "Canadian scholar". No objection to stating in the intro that he is a Canadian or Canadian citizen. Ottawaman 04:25, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd read that when it was up here and, to be honest, I wasn't entirely sure what you wanted. I think Hamiltonian had the same problem when he proposed something which you were unhappy with. But as I understand it, you are fine with describing Ignatieff as "Canadian" and as a "scholar" but not as a "Canadian scholar". Is that correct? --JGGardiner 04:53, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes,that is correct. However,Tyrenius made a good point,imo, that "academic" is a better word choice than "scholar". But for me, as you say, I am fine with describing Ignatieff as "Canadian" and as a "scholar" but not as a "Canadian scholar". Ottawaman 11:34, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I still disagree, for all the reasons I mentioned earlier. To recap: he was born in Canada; his BA was completed at the University of Toronto; his first teaching assignment was at the University of British Columbia; he has always possessed Canadian citizenship; his last appointment was at the University of Toronto. I honestly don't know how else you could fairly describe him. And I do prefer the word "academic" to "scholar", incidentally. --Hamiltonian 12:36, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I also prefer "academic" to "scholar". Would you agree to "Canadian academic"? Or does it have the same problem for you? --JGGardiner 15:12, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

"Canadian academic" is alright by me. Sunray 18:01, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Would we be referring to Arnold Schwarzenegger as an Austrian politician if he returned to Austria to retire? Since Iggy's higher levels of scholarship and academic achievements were at Harvard(PhD & 5 years teaching) and England as well as the vast majority of time spent in scholarship/academia (30 years to 2(undergrad isn't "scholar" qualifications)), it seems misleading to say Canadian scholar or Canadian academic. What about "Michael Grant Ignatieff, M.P., (Canadian citizen born May 12, 1947 in Toronto) is a scholar and novelist who,after living abroad for 30 years, returned to Canada in 2005 and was elected as a Liberal Member of Parliament in the Canadian House of Commons. Ottawaman 19:34, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Of course we wouldn't refer to Arnold as an Austrian politician, because he is an American citizen. If he renounced his American citizenship, returned to Austria, became an Austrian citizen, and then won elective office, then maybe. --Hamiltonian 19:47, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually Arnold is a good example. His intro currently reads "is an Austrian bodybuilder, actor and Republican politician, currently serving as the 38th Governor of California." That's because these things generally read person-identity-profession. Even though Arnold never acted in Austria, he's still an Austrian actor. It isn't meant to suggest that he learned to act in Austria or ever worked as an actor there but it is what he is, an Austrian actor, not an Austrian-trained actor and not an actor employed in Austria but an Austrian who is an actor. For the American part, the second sentence says that he is a naturalized citizen of the US although the alternative would have been to say "Austrian-American" in the first sentence which is also done in the JK Galbraith article for example (as "Canadian-American"). --JGGardiner 20:06, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The way the intro reads right now one could easily get the impression Iggy has lived in Canada all his life. I think it is important to include the 30 year absence in the intro as it is such a crucial aspect of his history and to not include it is pov by omission (implying an exagerated lifetime within Canada). I agree Arnold is a good example (He still has Austrian citizenship btw). The intro only includes "Austrian" in front of bodybuilder which makes sense as his bodybuilding career was primarily accomplished in Austria. Note how "politician" has a different descriptive before it. What is wrong with the suggestion I made in my last edit? Or, I suppose we could use Arnold as a template and say; "Michael Grant Ignatieff (born on... ) is a Canadian citizen and an international academic and novelist who, after living abroad for 30 years, returned to Canada in 2005 and was elected as a Liberal Member of Parliament in the Canadian House of Commons." Ottawaman 00:30, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

had to give up this position

change to "left his position as did other leadership candidates" per discussionOttawaman 23:59, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. --Hamiltonian 19:21, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm fine with that too. --JGGardiner 20:52, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Background

He continued his work for the Liberal Party..

change to "He also worked for the Liberal Party in 1968 as a national youth organizer and party delegate for the Pierre Elliot Trudeau campaign." the word "continued" indicates an ongoing involvement between 65 and 68 whereas there was none we know ofOttawaman 23:59, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that the word "continued" implies work between 65 and 68. It says he worked in 65. He continued working in 68. "... canvassing the York South riding for the 1965 election. He continued his work for the Liberal Party in 1968..." So I oppose this change. --Hamiltonian 19:25, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure which version I prefer. I think that both points have merit. However, I'd like to comment that we should remove the "national" part of the description. Like most readers, I'm not aware of all of the Liberal Party's terminology and I don't know what exactly it means. --JGGardiner 20:55, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

where he studied under the well-known historian and philosopher Isaiah Berlin

change to "where he interviewed philosopher Isaiah Berlin over a 10 year period"

References show Iggy interviewed Berlin many times which is not the same thing as "studied under " him. Ottawaman 18:59, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Agree - it's more to do with the vagueness of the term "studied under", I think. --Hamiltonian 19:25, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that we should removed "studied under". Maybe he did but we don't have a reference for that. But I think we should just drop the Berlin reference entirely then because it is no longer connected to the sentence or the section. --JGGardiner 20:57, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

He went on to teach at the University of British Columbia from 1976 to 1978

change to "He worked as an assistant professor of history at the University of British Columbia from 1976 to 1978". btw, some assistants teach sometimes and some do not; reference does not indicate he actually taught.Ottawaman 18:59, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

While I suspect that he probably did teach (generally, at least now, it's post-docs that don't teach), I'm fine with this. --Hamiltonian 19:25, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

He did teach at UBC and mentions it fairly extensively here. --JGGardiner 21:00, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Gardiner is correct, however it is better to state his exact positon. Change to; "He worked as an assistant professor of history at the University of British Columbia from 1976 to 1978". Ottawaman 00:47, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Recognition

Michael Ignatieff is an internationally recognized scholar and historian, and has written extensively on the subjects of international relations and nation-building.

delete-no reference. Ottawaman 00:05, 16 August 2006

Well, he is internationally recognized as a scholar and historian (see his CV; the various honorary degrees); and see his CV for the books that he's written. So I don't know what the problem is. --Hamiltonian 19:27, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. That seems like a simple description. Although I'm personally not fond of those "internationally recognized" kind of descriptions. It is pretty common at WP. I wouldn't complain if that part was dropped but the rest is fine. --JGGardiner 21:01, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

What is the purpose of this sentence? There are many other references in the article to his specific accomplishments. This sentence is added flattery,I think. Ottawaman 00:50, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Writings

Igatieff has been described as "an extraordinarily versatile writer", in both the style and the subjects he writes about.

delete as reference#4 contains no such quote Ottawaman 18:59, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes it does. Michael Ignatieff is an extraordinarily versatile writer, both in terms of the kind of writing he does well and the subjects he writes about.

Sorry, I see it now. Leave it as is. Ottawaman 04:31, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Michael Ignatieff travelled to the Balkans and Kurdistan while working as a journalist, witnessing first hand the atrocities in each.

delete as reference#4 does not say this. Ottawaman 18:59, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

He clearly did travel to those places, as a journalist. It is in his book Blood and Belonging. I don't personally own the book so I'm not sure about the atrocities part but I'd leave the rest of it. --JGGardiner 21:12, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

who made a strong impression on Ignatieff. Ignatieff's own philosophical writings include The Needs of Strangers and The Rights Revolution, where he explores social welfare and community, and show the influence of Berlin on Ignatieff.

delete as not verified by reference #4 Ottawaman 18:59, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm fine deleting that. Although someone may want to rewrite the section on Ignatieff and Berlin, as there is clearly quite a bit that is actually written in that regard (including in the CW link). I assume that the editor inserted the link to reference only the last sentence, Ignatieff's writings, and simply left the rest unsourced. --JGGardiner 21:17, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

These tie closely to Ignatieff's political writings, as well, such as those on national self-determination and the imperatives of democratic self-government. Ignatieff has also written extensively on international affairs.

delete; as non referenced opinion of the contributor. Ottawaman 18:59, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

This is really part of the same thing as the previous one. It looks like we're going to have to remove the whole paragraph then. Although, like I said, it could simply be rewritten because there is clearly source material in this area. --JGGardiner 21:22, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

All of Canadian culture and human rights

delete as non-verified opinion of the contributor. #5 link does not verify this section. Ottawaman 18:59, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

International Affairs

Ignatieff has written extensively on the subject of international development, peacekeeping, and the international responsibilities of Western nations. Critical of the limited-risk approach practiced by NATO in conflicts like the Kosovo War and the Rwandan Genocide, he has argued for a more active involvement and larger scale deployment of land forces by Western nations in future conflicts in the developing world.

delete as non-verified opinion of the contributor. Ottawaman 18:59, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

In the years following the invasion, Ignatieff has reiterated his support for the war's aims, if not the method in which it was conducted.

change to; "In the years following the invasion, Ignatieff has reiterated his support for the war". The rest is the contributor's opinion. Ottawaman 19:16, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Lesser evil approach

Ignatieff attempts to balance citizens' rights to privacy and civil liberties against the state's need for surveillance to investigate terrorist activities.

delete as non-verified opinion of the contributor. Ottawaman 18:59, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Political Career

Jean Augustine, the well-liked, long-serving Liberal MP of that riding, stepped aside and endorsed Ignatieff's nomination.

delete no reference Ottawaman 19:13, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Augustine not only endorsed him, she officially nominated him --Hamiltonian 19:36, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

That means that we should keep it, no? FellowWikipedian 23:34, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure if she was well liked. I know the David Peterson Government didn't like her. Just too bad I can't verify.Pete Peters 00:44, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The reference above states Augustine was "retiring" not stepping aside. It does say she nominated him which is not the same as endorsing the nomination. What about "Jean Augustine, the former MP of that riding, nominated Ignatieff." all the rest is puffy,imo. Ottawaman 00:41, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

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