Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 21:04, 18 August 2006

Part 1

Here, we are voting on principle. That is the generic pattern for all the states.

Here is how it works: Arguments go under the Principle header. Discussion/rebuttals go under the Discussion header.

Voting takes place later, arguments only for now.

Discussion starts below:

Principle 1: X

This format is already used by a number of WikiProjects, including (but not limited to) New York, Pennsylvania, Vermont and Maryland. The reason that "New York State" is used for the state name in NY is to disambiguate between New York State and New York City. --TMF 17:03, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

That's not true; we use "New York State Route X" because NYSDOT uses it. --SPUI (T - C) 17:46, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

The fact that NYSDOT uses the term is true as well; however, my explanation was necessary to appease others who would likely attempt to move articles to "New York Route X" if this principle is selected. --TMF 17:48, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

That's also used by NYSDOT, but not as much. They use "NY Route X" and "NYS Route X" about equally. There's no reason we can't decide to use "New York Route X". --SPUI (T - C) 17:51, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

The main issue I would have with using "New York Route X" would be the hassle of moving 500 or so pages based on a single word in the title. --TMF 17:54, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with TMF on this point. New York State calls itself "New York State" on any official documents, names, etc. (driver's licenses, um, excuse me, "Driver Licenses" for example) to disambiguate itself from "New York City." There are, as far as I know, no New York City Routes, but that's not the point. I believe, also, that the NYSDOT official names are actually "New York State Touring Route ###(L)" and "New York State Reference Route 9R#L," but if someone's willing to point me to a reference showing otherwise, I'll stand corrected. NYS calls itself, officially, "NYS," and so I'm pretty sure that a Misplaced Pages User referring to Route 347 would look up "New York State Route 347." --Tckma 19:25, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Hassles should not come in the way of a popular concensus. --TinMan 19:58, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

In any event, this isn't the place to discuss this; the conventions by state won't come until part 2. --TMF 20:59, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

(I've switched the parentheses with brackets in Principle 1 to prevent confusion with Principle 2.)' This format is the most likely version a visitor to Misplaced Pages would type in to find the correct article. It distinguishes from all other routes by placing the state name first. This format should also satisfy fans of the pipe trick, since ] could be redirected to this format: State Name Road Term x. Therefore, an editor could type ] and it would redirect to the correct article. --TinMan 19:58, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

No, it wouldn't. To wit, Route 15 ( that's ] ) certainly does NOT redirect to Illinois Route 15. --Tckma 20:33, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

That's because in Illinois the routes are "Illinois Route X". That redirect isn't a bad idea though - I'm going to make it. --SPUI (T - C) 05:49, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

An editor could, but most won't know, and we'll end up with articles that use the state name when they shouldn't. --SPUI (T - C) 05:49, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

What's so bad about them not using the pipe trick if all roads lead to the same place? --TinMan 19:56, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

One potential problem is that new editors tend to use the article title when making links. Also, many editors tend to fix redirects that aren't broken, preferring the direct link. If the article title is incorrect, that propagates the use of the incorrect name. --Polaron | Talk 20:01, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

From an inter-state perspective, this is the best way to name highways, as someone said in a past conversation that a resident from one state usually refers to a route from another by their state name first. It also sounds better when spoken out loud. --LBMixPro 03:48, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

As far as I know, this convention is what most people, including me, have wanted. ςפקιДИτς ☺ ☻ 17:29, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

That's also not necessarily true. --SPUI (T - C) 17:46, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 00:09, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

As do I. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 22:45, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

While reasonable people may disagree, this is likely what your average Misplaced Pages user would type in to search for an article on a specific state highway. S/he is likely to realize that there can potentially be 52 different Route X's in the U.S. alone, and thus would probably type the state name first, unless, as has been said on the discussion page, there was some sort of crazy listcruft desires. Any regional language differences ("Route," "Highway," etc.) can be taken care of with redirects to the commonly used local name of the road. --Tckma 19:07, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

This is the method I agree with. As I noted in the suggestion for the second principle, being from Michigan I know the highways are M-1, M-50, etc, but anyone from the other 49 states probably don't know that and would be more likely to search for state highway XX Stratosphere (talk - Contrib) 04:05, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Ditto Stratosphere. M is an obvious abbreviation for Michigan, but it could also be Minnesota if you were'nt familiar with the style. Abbreviations should be spelled out. By the way, its possible the main reason they are called "M-x" is because there is an "M" on most Michigan route shields. North Carolina used to have "NC" on their shields. --TinMan 19:58, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

See my note below about Kansas and Michigan. —Scott5114↗ 06:16, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Will this discussion cover State Highway v state highway, or state route, when it comes to the category names? Vegaswikian 07:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Principle 2: Commonly-Used-Name X (State Name)

For each state, choose a common or commonly-used official name. For instance:

• Florida: State Road X
• Louisiana: Louisiana Highway X
• Massachusetts: Route X
• Michigan: M-X

Then, if necessary, apply standard disambiguation conventions by adding a qualifier in parentheses:

• State Road X (Florida)
• Louisiana Highway X
• Route X (Massachusetts)
• M-X (Michigan highway)

--SPUI (T - C) 17:46, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

This is standard practice on Misplaced Pages, in part because it makes it easier to write articles. If you don't understand this, please read Misplaced Pages:pipe trick. One can type ] rather than ]. Note that redirects should always be made using a completion list. The routes should also be included on disambiguation pages, which also have a completion list for coordinating redirects. This ensures that a reader is likely to find the article. --SPUI (T - C) 17:46, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

SPUI, until you showed the link to pipe trick (and I used the trick here also!) I did not understand the purpose behind what you were doing. Perhaps this is certainly why people do not understand and we end up edit-warring - could it be because they don't know how to use Misplaced Pages? --master_son 22:08, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually we do understand how to use the Pipe trick, thank you very much. But we should not redo the whole system just so we can use the pipe trick. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 23:06, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

ok. Then we shouldn't with already existing ones. but new ones? Wisconsin was a possible example. very few articles written (about 10-15?) so it probably made some sense to convert the existing there, but where do we draw the line? --master_son 23:10, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Also, the typical user will most likely type in Wisconsin Highway x rather than type in Highway x, realizing that there is more than one highway by that name. Besids, who, being a newcomer to Misplaced Pages, would realize taht the article was at the odd "Highway x (Wisconsin)? --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 23:36, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Who would realize the article is at John Smith (English statesman)? Or Atlas (mythology)? We should strive to be correct. --SPUI (T - C) 05:53, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, the piipe trick was added AFTER Misplaced Pages started using parenthetical disambiguation. --SPUI (T - C) 05:53, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

While I respect the idea that the names should come from the official source (i.e. the state's particluar Dept of Transportation) I feel that in many situations, the average[REDACTED] user would have no idea of the local official name. For example, being from Michigan I am aware that the state highways are referred to as M-1, or M-50. But, if you were to ask someone from the other 49 states (maybe wisconsin, indiana, ohio excluded) they would have no clue that was the fact, unless they were a roadgeek. Stratosphere (talk - Contrib) 03:57, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

While I think we should definitely select a commonly used name, I don't think we should use this method of disambiguation. Yes, naming articles in this manner does make it easier on editors for typing because of the pipe trick mentioned above. However, we need to make Misplaced Pages search user-friendly, which may not necessarily be editor-friendly. As I've said before (on this project's talk page), I've been using this principle only because it appeared to be a standard precedent on the states I've been working. (As a side note, I believe that fact demonstrates that I'm willing to abide by whatever standards come out of this poll.) --Tckma 19:11, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Why not? what's not user-friendly about that method? I think its both editor-friendly and user friendly in this sense. if one guesses based on experience, this will help them get to the correct location. I would think WIS 15, so I type it - but if we did not have a disambiguation or redirect, I'd get the edit page. with what we have now (there's a completion list on WP:WIH as well.) if I typed in or clicked on a WIS 15 link, it would take me to Highway 15 (Wisconsin).--master_son 22:14, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

It's only user-friendly if you throw in a bunch of redirects. If I'm looking for state highway, well, I'm fairly intelligent and I realize many states can have the same number highway. So I'll type "New Hampshire Route 101" rather than "Route 101" or "Route 101 (New Hampshire)." My point is this: In common speech the state's name comes first. Locally, the road is referred to as just "Route one-oh-one," or even just "one-oh-one." Sure, we need disambiguation -- If you're giving someone directions to Hampton Beach, you probably aren't going to talk about U.S. Highway 101 -- unless the person is really lost! One could conceivably imagine giving directions involving both Route 101 (New Hampshire) and Route 101 (Massachusetts), but they aren't the same road (neither crosses the state line). So in that case you would say "New Hampshire Route 101" and "Massachusetts Route 101" -- the state name always comes first. Ask yourself: What would Joe Average Wikipedian type in to get to an article? --Tckma 17:20, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

By putting something like "Route 4" as the first words of an article will just open a can of worms. What's next? "Highway 52 (United States)"? "Route 95 (Interstate)"? I've never seen a road sign with parentheses on it... and I believe that road signs should be the #1 thing we consider since that's what people read when they travel, that's where common names usually come from, and that's how resident's addresses usually read. I might live on Virginia Highway 8, but not Highway 8 (Virginia). Who would ever type "Highway 8 (Virginia)" in a search unless they are familiar with Misplaced Pages? I understand that no matter what a person types in a search, we can redirect to it. Yet, I feel the articles should have titles that a user can relate to. All the editor tricks and strange formats editors want to use can be redirects to a format that reads like a road sign or an address, like I suggested in Principle 1. EDITOR < USER. --TinMan 19:54, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

The parenthetical term is a disambiguation. It is not part of the article name. As long as expected search queries are redirected to the correct article, then it shouldn't be a problems. Some people just seem to dislike this disambiguation method (for whatever reason) even though it is used by many encyclopedias (print and online). --Polaron | Talk 20:17, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

One more thing I think I should add: This format assumes that the routes are known (using the term "highway" as an example) as "Highway x" in their respective states, wherein the each state's articles would need to be diambiguated to differentiate between the multiple "Highway x"'s in the county. However, in my state, and I dare say in most states, the road is never known as "Highway x", except in informal speech, but instead (using North Carolina as an example), "N.C. Highway x", "North Carolina Highway x", "NC x", or some variant of that. The state name or state abbreviation is never left out in any formal or semi-formal format. Michigan I assume is the same way with its "M-x". The "M" is still there, therefore a parentheses disambiguation shouldn't be used here... the abbreviation may have to be spelled out. Now, in places like Massachusetts, the routes may just be commonly known as "Route x" with no reference to the state. In those cases, I believe this Principle 2 is best suited. If that is the case, we're going to have a big uniformity problem. I don't know for sure if that is true though. I've noticed SPUI argue that "Route x" is the true name of the road someplace, but I can't remember where. --TinMan 05:43, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Kansas and Michigan have special dab problems -- in Kansas at least, both the common and official name is "K-X" (as in K-32). However there's a lot of other things that are K-X (I'm sure you can imagine the problems with K-9 meaning either or a canine). Same for Michigan - there are even problems with other highways named M-X, as the motorway system in Great Britain also uses that convention. So these two states need special attention. Principal 2 definitely works better for these highways than Principal 1, as Principal 1 would require the names to be at "Kansas State Highway 32" (which is neither correct nor commonly used, at least from my experience) or "Kansas K-32" or something else clumsy like that.—Scott5114↗ 07:05, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

If the official state name was "Boring Route x" would you use that for the article name? --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 06:19, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

If Boring is the state, yes. If Boring is a class, I'd use Boring Route X (State). --SPUI (T - C) 11:02, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Just because it is the official name does not mean we have to use it. For example, Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 19:51, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

In either case the state abbreviaiton would have to be spelled out. That's a given. It's just a question of whehter you want the state name in the front or the back of the title...or have the state stated twice for some strange reason. In the copy (details) of the article, I assume you can call it "K-x" all you want; same with "M-x". K obviously stands for Kansas and M obvoiously stands for Michigan in those states. Also, even in abbreviated form, the state name or a state abbreviation is always existent and in the front. --TinMan 20:50, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Let's worry about getting the disambiguation for the other 48 states first and then we can come back to Kansas and Michigan when it's time to decide schemes for individual states. (Not sure, but does Nebraska use N-X?) —Scott5114↗ 21:40, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I support using common names, but as long as we are using common names, we should also be using a common disambiguation techniques as well. For example, Wilmington is an ambiguous name for an article. So how do we disambiguate? There is the parentheses option (Wilmington (Delaware), Wilmington (North Carolina) etc.), but that's not the technique commonly used to disambiguate town names, thus we have the article titles: Wilmington, Delaware and Wilmington, North Carolina. So before we decide that we should be disambiguating with parentheses, we should back up and see if there is another way to go about doing it for that state. In Maryland, we call our state routes simply "Route X", but when we want to disambiguate from other states' state routes we say "Maryland Route X". So to someone from Maryland at least, the title Maryland Route 2 makes more sense than Route 2 (Maryland) since the former uses a more familiar style of disambiguation. I'm not nessesarily saying that we should put the state name first, if people in Lalaland, for example, call thier routes "State Highway X" and disambiguate by saying "State Highway X of Lalaland" then we should go with that convention.-Jeff 04:06, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Principle 0: The basics

Let's back up a bit, perhaps? Rather than jumping right into the center of the debate? I have a few general principles (since that's what this part is supposed to be about, right?) that I'm wondering if we can all agree on:

1. Highway articles almost all need to be disambiguated somehow. "Route 90" could be anything from an Interstate to a county route.
2. There are multiple ways of peforming disambiguation.
3. Misplaced Pages guidelines do not have a preference for one method of disambiguation over another.

If we can all agree on these three, I have some more that might be more controversial but would help us form a foundation for later principles. Powers 19:41, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Sure. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 22:23, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. howcheng {chat} 22:49, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Why not? --physicq210 00:05, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree... to an extent. You could stretch these to fit both of the principles, so the statements as they are written I agree with. --TinMan 05:26, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

w00t. —Rob (talk) 14:42, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Disagree. Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions says that "Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." Linking to articles is easier with parenthetical disambiguation. --SPUI (T - C) 11:07, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions also says "Names of Misplaced Pages articles should be optimized for readers over editors; and for a general audience over specialists." I don't think "making linking to those articles easy and second nature" necessarily means parenthetical disambiguation is preferred. In fact, Misplaced Pages:Disambiguation#Specific topic specifically says "If there is a choice between using a short phrase and word with context, there is no hard rule about which is preferred," and, in reference to using adjectives for disambiguation, "but it's usually better to rephrase the title to avoid parentheses." Powers 14:46, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Any "disambiguating" portion of a state highway article's title (meaning a portion which does not commonly appear in documents published by the maintaining agency in the context of referring to a specific road, which exists only to help readers understand the context, or which simply disambiguates it from other roads with the same proper name) should be confined within parentheses. Period. If a certain state's DoT is inconsistant, then we can discuss it, write to them for clarification, whatever we need to do. These steps should not be necessary in the majority of cases. —freak(talk) 14:16, Aug. 13, 2006 (UTC)

Um, why? Since when is disambiguation only allowed via parentheticals? Powers 14:46, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Principle 8 in the ArbCom case --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 18:09, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

"...but their use is not a required method." (ibid.) --Tckma 17:25, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

• Okay, I don't know where to jump into the debate here, so I'm just gonna start here. I think the articles should be named like the interstate and federal routes. For example, instead of Pennsylvania State Route 39, how about just PA-39? --myselfalso 19:11, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Well, the problem with that is that it's confusing. It might work for some states, but definitely not all of them. In fact, the articles about Interstate and US highways are not named I-XX and US-XX. ςפקιДИτς ☺ ☻ 19:17, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
  • True, I did forget that I-XX and US-XX are redirects to Interstate-XX and US Route-XX. Ultimately, I like it the way it is. The current name for the PA-39 article is Pennsylvania Route 39. I think we should stick with that. --myselfalso 19:47, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Well, I also think you should stick with that, unless the word "Highway" or "State Road" is more common in PA. I've been there a number of times, but I can't say for sure. Those decisons are later on though. Right now, we're trying to decide whether "State Term x" or "Term x (State)" is better for the majority of the country. Each side has great points, but in the end, this matters very little. No matter what the decision is, redirects can be made for almost anything. Yet, it has to be done to stop this nationwide mayhem, which by the way, seems to have died down since this debate started. --TinMan 21:04, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
    • I think it's easier to do it "State Term X" rather than "Term X (State)". I just like the formatting better. "Pennsylvania Route 39" makes more sense to me rather than "Route 39 (Pennsylvania)". I should think that there would be a disambiguation page for Route 39 (for each state route 39 and federal and interstate route 39) reguardless of the name of the page, but I would think that more people searching up PA-39 would search under "Pennsylvania Route 39" before "Route 39 (Pennsylvania)". I think the article should be named for what is simpler for the person looking up the article. And while "Route 39 (Pennsylvania)" looks cleaner than "Pennsylvania Route 39", I think the latter is easier to find faster. --myselfalso 23:01, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
      • What people are likely to search for should not be the main concern. That's what redirects are for. The title should be a common name that is used by the state DOT. For the specific case of Pennsylvania, PennDOT does use "Pennsylvania Route" but some other states do not include the state name in what the state DOT calls its state highways. --Polaron | Talk 23:14, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
        • Well stated, Polaron, I agree completely. Names should be based on official usage. → JARED   00:03, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
          • I don't think anyone's arguing that. The question is whether to disambiguate via the state-name-as-adjective prior to the route designation, or via a parenthetical state name. Powers 00:57, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
            • I completely disagree. The state DOT's half the time don't know what they're own routes are called. Many just call them many names. We had a big discussion on this for I think Minnesota highways, which are called Trunk highways. I say that road signs and mailing addresses trump the state DOT's. For example, in North Carolina, legislation dictates that Interstate 95 is called "Interstate Route 95", something I think the article shouldn't be called. Plus, Misplaced Pages encourages common names, as long as its not too informal. Official names should be used, but not when nobody calls them that. An article about the BB&T bank should be named BB&T, not Branch Banking and Trust that probably nobody has heard of. Now if a state DOT or some other official body uses language that anyone can identify with, by all means, apply it, just as long as the rest of the country doesn't suffer with silly abbreviations. The talk page of this naming convention has already covered a lot of this. I encouage that everyone at least skim over that before rambling away. --TinMan 02:27, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
              • I agree, the title of an article should reflect what the general public calls the route, not what only the government calls it. Here, the SHA calls each route MD X, but that convention isn't used by the general public. The general public is more likely to call each route "Maryland Route X", which is the naming convention we use at WP:MDRD. However if the general public uses what the government uses in a certain state, by all means, use that convention. -Jeff 03:17, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
              • That was what I was saying — choose a common name that the state DOT also uses (even if it is not the full legal/official name). But if the state does not append the state's name to what it calls its state highways, then the title should reflect that. --Polaron | Talk 03:28, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
                • Wait, whoa. We still have to disambiguate it somehow, and the pipe trick is the only reason anyone's come up with for using parenthetical disambiguation. I personally don't find that particularly compelling. Much better to have parallelism, IMO. Powers 11:35, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
              • Um, with what part of my statement do you disagree, TinMan? Powers 11:35, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
                • When you stated, "common name that is used by the state DOT" I thought you wanted the DOT's to decide everything, something I oppose (the bold threw me off). My point is that DOT's rarely know themselves. In Virginia's case, when someone sent an email to the state DOT, they just looked at what the minutes of DOT meetings said and gave out popular references. Your further statements clarify your true intentions though. I'm in a agreement now that I know what you're saying. --TinMan 18:41, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
                  • I didn't say that. Maybe you meant to reply (and disagree with) Polaron? Powers 22:58, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
                  • right. --TinMan 02:41, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Agree with all numbered "Principle 0" items given above. --Tckma 17:23, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I also agree with this. Both ways work - what's the problem? We can always use redirects. --master_son 23:17, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Disagreement

OK, so we're all agreed on points one and two, then. Point three has broad support, but SPUI and FreakofNurture disagree. SPUI has a good point that parenthetical disambiguation allows the pipe trick to work, but I think it's important to note that the pipe trick will still work as long as we have the proper redirects in place. In fact, I daresay almost all of the linking issues on both sides of the argument go away if we have the proper redirects in place. Even the search issue pretty much goes away if we have the proper redirects in place. Perhaps, then, the only remaining issue is what should the user see at the top of the page? That is, the title -- but the title without respect to how easy it is to search for or how easy it is to link to it, since all that is taken care of by redirects; rather, the title with respect to how it is read by the user on the actual article. Thoughts? Powers 15:09, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that redirects make alot of points moot in this debate, so what it comes down to is what title simply looks right. People from "Some State" might say "Route X" but disambiguate from other states by saying "Some State Route X" and people from "Another State" might say "Highway X" and disambiguate by saying "Highway X in Another State". In this case I think the article titles should match how people disambiguate rather then use parentheses. Like I said before we don't disambiguate town names with parentheses because people are more familiar with using "TownName, StateName", I don't see why that principle should be any different here.-Jeff 15:44, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

That's not the only issue - Rschen7754 was changing the bolded titles of articles from "State Route X" to "California State Route X" until he was blocked for it. He only did it on pages that were located at "California State Route X" (California has some at each).

There's also the issue of only those of us "in the know" using the redirects. If someone is writing an article on Foo, California, and wants to say that State Route X runs through it, they'll probably look up State Route X, find the disambiguation page, click through to California, and use the title of the page. So the article will read "California State Route X runs through Foo". --SPUI (T - C) 20:07, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think someone would do that. I think they would search for "California State Route x" (or some other term)... the point is, I think they would obviously put the state name in the search, realizing that each state has routes and there are U.S. routes, and Interstate routes, county routes, so on and so on. Furthermore, what's wrong with saying "California State Route X runs through Foo"? I don't see anything wrong with that. --TinMan 18:46, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

You are objecting to one of my assumptions that doesn't affect the argument. No matter what someone types, if they find the page, they are likely to link to it using the title. And saying "California State Route X runs through Foo" is bad writing, because it is redundant, just as we don't say "California State Route X runs from Foo, California to Bar, California via Baz, California and Bam County, California". People don't generally call it that. --SPUI (T - C) 20:37, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

So you're saying that people are smart enough to not repeat "California" all the time. Is there some reason that they wouldn't use ] runs from ] to ] via ] and ]? We already expect them to do that for the city and county links. Isn't it reasonable to think they'll do it for the road link too? howcheng {chat} 21:55, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I am saying that. See for instance and . It's worse here than with cities because some states do put the state name first. --SPUI (T - C) 22:48, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Good point SPUI. I can see where this would get quite redundant on articles dealing specifically with California or another state. However, saying "State Route 1 is a state highway in the U.S. state of California" is an incorrect statement. That's why I suggest we treat route articles like we do for city articles. After the state name has been claified once, we can drop it for the rest of the article, similar to how pronouns replace nouns. For example: you could say: "Washington State Route 7 is a state highway in the U.S. state of Washington. It is 372 miles (83 SPUI UNITS) long. State Route 7 travels east-west in the northwest corner of the state." Yes, Washington would be clarified twice in that instance, but I don't think we have a choice if we want to be accurate. In North Carolina, the first bolded letters have been replaced by a common nickname, so an article might read: "NC 87 is a state highway in central North Carolina, United States." (I just put SPUI units for kicks.) Now, let's say I'm writing an article on Clingmans Dome and I wanted to describe the road that takes visitors to the park. I would have to say "North Carolina State Highway 37 provides access to the park", not "State Highway 37 provides access to the park" since the mountain is right on the NC/TN state line. (That's not a true statement, it's just for example). --TinMan 01:41, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

'However, saying "State Route 1 is a state highway in the U.S. state of California" is an incorrect statement.' Uh - what? That's perfectly correct, just like "Santa Barbara is a city in California, United States." Santa Barbara is a disambiguation. There are multiple cities named that. This one is a city in California - and this SR 1 is a state highway in California.

Wait, how is saying anything "State Route 1234 is a state highway in the U.S. state of Utopia" an incorrect statement? Even if it's also a state highway in Dystopia, the former's still correct. --Tckma 19:49, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Look below. --TinMan 02:08, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

As for your Clingman's Dome example, it depends. You could say "State Highway 37 provides access to the park from Fooville, North Carolina" without any ambiguity. --SPUI (T - C) 13:50, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I guess you could wiggle around it like that. I stand corrected...d'oh! I'm just not a fan of leaving the state name off on non-route articles. You could say "Billy Joe lived on State Route 8 in California" or "Billy Joe lived in California on State Route 8" or "Billy Joe lived on California State Route 8". Each has its benefits and down-sides. --TinMan 18:07, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

TinMan's Final Analysis: So I guess all we're voting on tomorrow is which design do you like better. Both principles have pros and cons and I could go either way. The best thing to do is weigh each side and come do a decision, selecting the lesser of two evils. --TinMan 18:07, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

By the way, check out . Four years ago. It's all Brion's fault. --SPUI (T - C) 22:48, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay, so the issues are the title as it appears to the reader, without regard to how easy it is to link to it, but with regard to how it influences editors referring to it. Is that fairly accurate? Powers 14:35, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

It's also easier to link to a parenthetically-disambiguated title. The naming convention apparently takes into account these nuances. --SPUI (T - C) 14:46, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not clear on what you mean by the latter statement; which naming convention, and which nuances? I think your first statement is obviated by the use of redirects. ] works regardless of whether the link in question is a redirect or the main article. Powers 14:56, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The only possible reason I can see for that is to avoid the user seeing "California State Route 1234... redirected from State Route 1234 (California)" in the article title. And really, who cares, as long as you get to the actual article? --Tckma 19:43, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Part I Voting

Directions:

• Add your name below the principle in which you endorse.
• DO NOT edit votes that are not yours for whatever reason.
• Do not discuss principles here. Please discuss in the relevant sections above.

Reminder:

• Voting ends August 31, 2006.

Principle I: XX

Principle II: XX (State Name)