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Revision as of 07:46, 14 February 2016

Edit warring etc.

@FreeatlastChitchat: I think you like edit war. I said to you add your comments in the talk page and after conclusion we can edit the article. Saff V. (talk) 06:59, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

@Saff V. what comments can I add? The sections I removed are 100% WP:COATRACK and WP:OR. How can you prove that they are not? FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 07:05, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

@FreeatlastChitchat: It is your idea about this edited text. We must answer another user. Mhhossein and H.dryad please say your idea about FreeatlastChitchat comment.Saff V. (talk) 07:11, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

@Saff V. why should I answer to another user? If you have no arguments then why did you revert? Are you a five year old child who has no arguments of his own? This is the most imbecilic bad faith revert I have ever seen, you revert, have no arguments and then ping someone else? WTF? FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 07:17, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

@Saff V. why are you reverting me? What rationale and arguments can you provide against the WP:COATRACK and WP:OR claims? FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 08:05, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

The current version is better and you have claim this is OR. You must convince me.Saff V. (talk) 08:15, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

@FreeatlastChitchat: - please can you explain why some parts are not properly supported by reliable citations, and some parts are not really relevant (coat rack). Please do this part by part.-- Toddy1 (talk) 08:37, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

@Saff V.: - please can you address the issue that the article contains almost nothing about its subject: Fajr decade national holiday. Instead it deals almost exclusively with the events that the national holiday celebrates. We do not need a WP:Content fork article about the Islamic revolution of 1979.-- Toddy1 (talk) 08:37, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

@ Toddy1 Nothing except the first two lines discusses this "holiday". Hence the Coatrack. Once we remove the coatrack, we can discuss the remaining sources. But @Saff V.: seems to think that removing this coatrack is uncalled for so he should give arguments. And by arguments I mean something other than the tirade of a petulant child when he says again and again "you must convince me". What exactly do I have to convince him of? FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 10:02, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

He/she is not being petulant. He/she speaks Farsi; he/she understands English with great difficulty. As you probably know, computer translation between Farsi and English is extremely bad at carrying the sense of what is written. Please could you remove the words "the tirade of a petulant child when he says again and again". This would make it possible for him to understand what you mean.

What you wrote said that there were two problems:

• Original research WP:OR. This might be right. But it is hard to understand why.
• Most of the article is about a different subject OR:COATRACK. This is absolutely correct. But you needed to explain this so he understood.

-- Toddy1 (talk) 10:21, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

@ Toddy1 FML, why can't he just ask for the persian translation? I am fluent in farsi, I even corrected his translation mistakes an hour ago. Anyway in order to keep the discussion coherent for all users I will just open a new section this one has gone to dogs to be frank. Gimme a minute. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 10:30, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

FML is not a suitable term in the Misplaced Pages society.Saff V. (talk) 11:19, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Toddy1: How can we separate events of a decade from the decade? What's "Fajr decade" if it's not a complex of events occurring during the decade? Mhhossein (talk) 16:44, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

• Saff V.:Well, what we have here is another mass removal by FreeatlastChitchat without making enough notifications on the talkpage and discussing it with others. Although from a strict viewpoint, I see that " The start of the celebration..." could be removed because it's not supported by the cited source, FC's disruptive behavior including committing edit war and using an irritating language ("Are you a five year old child...", "tirade of a petulant child when he says again and again and "WTF?") is not acceptable and/or tolerable (as he has shown enough cases of such behaviors). However, I'm not endorsing Saff V.'s reverts (three times, the same as FC), I can't ignore the topic he made on the TP. Anyway, I'd like to emphasize that the article is about a decade everyday of which coincided an important event. ّFinally, Thanks to Toddy1 who is trying to build a consensus, I think Drmies would better be invited to the discussion to check the case. Mhhossein (talk) 12:10, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
• I hate to say "not my job", but "not my job". I think someone should report this at WP:ANEW and ask a real admin, like Bbb23 or EdJohnston, to look into the edit warring business. I did, however, block Freeatlast for their word choice, for 48 hours. Drmies (talk) 15:55, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
• FWIW: I think Freeatlast has a point (that timeline is unnecessary and inappropriate--like, completely off the mark in this article), and I think that Saff V. is guilty of edit warring as well. Sure, BRD and all, but Saff V. isn't even trying to argue their point. I note that Toddy1 seems to agree on the matter of content, and Mhossein has hesitations as well. BTW, I had to look up FML--is that supposed to mean "fuck my life"? What a stupid expression, and how immature and illogical--but not a violation of any code here, IMO ("in my opinion"). Drmies (talk) 16:00, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Title of the article

The title of the article is not suitable. The current title is meaning of the Fajr decade. Also, there is Fajr decade in the article's references. So, I changed the title. Saff V. (talk) 12:23, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Saff V.: You should support your claim using reliable sources. Which one is more common? Mhhossein (talk) 12:50, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Fajr decade or Dahe-ye-Fajr is common and sources mentioned dawning of new age as meaning of the term. Please see 1 and 2.Saff V. (talk) 13:06, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

While I usually am a fervent supporter of WP:ENGLISH titles, I think this case calls for a WP:COMMONNAME approach. That is to say, I favour "Dahe-ye Fajr" over its awkward translation "Fajr decade". You have to realise that in English, a decade means "10 years", not 10 days. Also, in being WP:CONSISTENT with most foreign holiday page titles (e.g. Islamic holidays like Eid al-Fitr and Eid al-Adha), I think "Dahe-ye Fajr" is preferable. This is all of course only the case, if the main subject of this article is the holiday and not the historical events upon which it is based. - HyperGaruda (talk) 17:57, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Saff V. - thank you for the Google books searches, but I think the terms need to be in inverted commas i.e. ". Also adding the word Iran to the search eliminated lots of false positives. Here are modified versions of your search:

• "dawning of new age" iran - 13 hits
• "Fajr decade" iran - 9 hits
• "Dahe-ye Fajr" iran - 6 hits
• "Daheye Fajr" iran - 4 hits
• "Dahe Fajr" iran - 1 hit

-- Toddy1 (talk) 19:00, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

@Saff V.: do you have any objection to HyperGaruda's suggestion of "Dahe-ye Fajr"?-- Toddy1 (talk) 19:18, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Public holidays in Iran

@Saff V.: How does this festival fit into Public holidays in Iran?-- Toddy1 (talk) 19:18, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

wax on wax off

As we have all done the hard work of discussing the removal. I think it is time to remove the WP:COATRACK. All those in favor say Aye! Saff V., Mhhossein, Toddy1, HyperGaruda any objections? FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 05:17, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

In my opinion, the section marked "Appellation" should be merged into the "introduction". The section marked "Events of February 1979" should be deleted. Where the article says "decade" this should be changed to "ten days", since "decade" means ten years in English not ten days.-- Toddy1 (talk) 07:31, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

I think, "Those ten days" are not separable from the "the ten days of Fajr", so we should not delete "Events of February 1979". Perhaps we can chose another title for that section, if it's not suitable. Mhhossein (talk) 13:10, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

@Mhhossein: what do you think the article about? (a) Is it about the events of 1-11 February 1979? (b) Or is it about the Iranian national holiday that celebrates this? FreeatlastChitchat, HyperGaruda and I believed that the topic was (b). Have we got it wrong?-- Toddy1 (talk) 21:00, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

@Toddy1: Both of them! Those ten days in which some incidents happened are regarded as holiday in Iran. By the way, if the events are omitted, then how can the significance of the holiday be transmitted? In fact we can't just say that those ten days are celebrated and refrain from answering the question "Why" they celebrate it and what had happened on those days! (see articles like Bastille Day). Mhhossein (talk) 04:02, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

If the article is about the holiday, then the significance can be transmitted through a wikilink. In the article on Bastille Day, the tale of events in 1789 forms less than 10% of the article. The same is true of the article on Victory Day (9 May); in the article on Victory in Europe Day the proportion is even smaller. In the articles on Armistice Day and Trafalgar Day, the historic events are described in one sentence. The description of events in 1979 occupies more than 50% of the article currently name "Fajr decade".

If you think that there needs to be an article on the ten days in 1979, then let us split the article into two article:

• On the holiday.
• On the events of 1979.

-- Toddy1 (talk) 08:00, 12 February 2016 (UTC) modified -- Toddy1 (talk) 08:05, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

A step forward, so you agree that "the tale of events" must be there, aren't you? All your examples are about a specific day, while our subject is about "ten days". Moreover, I think there are other points other than the "events" adding which will balance the article. Mhhossein (talk) 17:11, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

I've done a bit of cleaning, which often helps me to find new ideas. Of course some background is relevant, but what this article really needs is some more information on the holiday as it is celebrated nowadays. What do people do during the modern celebrations? And how are their actions related to the historical events from 1979? The descriptions of the individual days are of course going to look WP:COATRACKy without such information. - HyperGaruda (talk) 18:42, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

You just hit the nail on the head HyperGaruda. "Some more information on the holiday as it is celebrated nowadays," Is needed as I also said above. Mhhossein (talk) 08:01, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

@HyperGaruda and Mhhossein so we all agree that without contemporary mention linking the events to this "holiday? festival?" the entire mention of "events" is basically coatrack. ok with you guys? FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 07:46, 14 February 2016 (UTC)