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User:193.60.234.210

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Not entirely clear what is going on here. But anon user is repeatedly edit warring with other editors. Has already been blocked once for same. Could someone please take a look into this? https://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/193.60.234.210 AlistairMcMillan (talk) 18:06, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

This user restored a lot of material to my talk page which I had removed, without explanation and in contravention of WP:TPO. I can't see that their intentions here are good. 193.60.234.210 (talk) 18:08, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

This IP is quick to cite WP:TPO when someone restores content to their talk page, but this obviously doesn't apply to them -- samtar 18:10, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

This IP is deleting content on Ohio State University Radio Observatory without giving any reason, in spite of requests on their Talk page to do so. They are also edit warring on Around the World in Eighty Days. The requests and warnings on their Talk page have been deleted. This IP has been blocked before for the same type of disruptive "editing". David J Johnson (talk) 18:24, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

I have explained all the edits I've made. Others such as Mr Johnson have undone them without feeling the need to explain why. I think it's clear who is being disruptive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.60.234.210 (talk) 18:26, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

• • Any edits I've made included an explanation. In spite of requests, you have not explained your deletions of my edits. David J Johnson (talk) 20:10, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
    • User:David J Johnson, I'm sorry, but your explanations ("Revert POV edits by IP.") are not convincing. I am glad that Floq chose to reinstate the IP's edits: I don't know either what "noted" signal is, or how the primary source can verify that the observatory got its "greatest success" on that occasion. Drmies (talk) 01:24, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

You're yet to explain why WP:TPO doesn't apply to you - I'd be very interested to hear your reasoning -- samtar 18:32, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

• Isn't this the classic "best known for IP" kabuki theater? Where he's almost always right about the revert (which he is in this case too), but people mindlessly revert him because he's an IP, and he cannot stand that and flips out, and then there's a stupid ANI thread, and then the IP is blocked, and he goes to another one? ad nauseam? --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:41, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

Circle of Life -- samtar 18:46, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

• Uncooperative, uncivil, arrogant, edit-warring, personal attacks, evasion of an earlier one month block, etc etc. Blocked for three months. If Floquenbeam is right, well we'll just have to block the next IP, and the next... The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 18:45, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
  • The block was necessary, of course, because once he gets revved up there's no stopping it. But the arrogance and self righteousness isn't limited to the IP here; everyone reverting without explanation was being as ass too. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:49, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

I smell Misplaced Pages:Long-term abuse/Best known for IP too, and Floq is right, half the problem is that people edit war with him without really grasping the merits of the edits, and it just creates ANI thread after ANI thread. Ritchie333 19:05, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

@Floquenbeam and Ritchie333: Yes. Quite often the IP editor is absolutely right, and those who revert his/her edits are wrong. The problems are mainly to do with his or her attitude to other editors and how to deal with disagreements, rather than with his or her editing intentions. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 19:51, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

Not "editing intentions", but "edits", James. If an edit is good it shouldn't be reverted. Drmies (talk) 01:18, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

User:Spacecowboy420 going around blanking articles

Spacecowboy420 (talk · contribs) has been going around blanking articles. And not just huge chunks of articles...but entire articles. This is against the WP:Preserve policy and other rules that are in place for dealing with unsourced material. Furthermore, we do not blank entire articles unless it's a serious WP:BLP or WP:Copyvio issue. If the article really needs deleting, we take the matter to WP:AfD; we do not simply blank the article and then go about our merrily way. I first warned Spacecowboy420 about inappropriate removals when he removed easily verifiable content from Child grooming (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) solely because it was unsourced and incorrectly cited the material as possible WP:Original research. He did not do a check to see if the material was original research; he simply removed it based on a guess. This sparked a recent discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:Verifiability (see Misplaced Pages talk:Verifiability/Archive 64#Preserving a burden), and the most current discussion going on there. It also led to the current debating going on at Misplaced Pages talk: Editing policy. While some might be able to excuse his behavior in the Child grooming case, I do not see how this, this and this type of blanking is acceptable. Neither did Piotrus and Materialscientist, who reverted him at two of the articles. And in this case, he failed to do his WP:Before job before proposing that the article be deleted. As seen here and here, Arxiloxos came in to save the day in that case. As seen with this edit, Spacecowboy420 is also mistaken about WP:Primary sources, assuming that they are inherently bad.

I took the matter to S Marshall's talk page since he was as alarmed as I was about Spacecowboy420's behavior in the Child grooming case and his nonchalant, dimissive attitude regarding removing material. While S Marshall declined to get involved on his talk page, Piotrus stated, "I concur that blanking is not a good approach. There are deletion processes for that. Spacecowboy420, those three diffs above are basically stealthy deletion, and that is not far from the v-word. Please do not blank articles in such fashion. If you want them gone, Template:Prod is not difficult to use." Spacecowboy420's response was, "I'm merely deleting unsourced content. If someone wants to add content to an article, they should provide sources. If they are too lazy to provide sources, it gets removed. I guess I dislike poorly sourced content, unsourced content and lazy editors, as much as some others dislike content being removed. If an article ends up blank because none of it was sourced, the blame lies with the lazy editor who didn't provide a source. I would like to add, that if the content is notable and someone restores it, with suitable sources, I would not go back and remove it again." He soon made edits like this and this.

Some intervention is needed here. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:21, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

I'm guessing this, this, this, and maybe particularly this are some of the edits being questioned here? John Carter (talk) 20:26, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

As noted above, that's part of it. When it comes to blanking the entire article, or essentially the entire article, this, this and this is also a part of it. Spacecowboy420 has been clear that he believes this type of blanking is fine. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:37, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

I honestly cannot see how anyone can believe that blanking of an entire article put together by others is "fine". Opening deletion discussion, maybe, but not blanking an entire article. If his beliefs do permit that, then it is definitely time for him to be advised to the contrary. John Carter (talk) 20:40, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

Well, yes. Surely the way to go about dealing with completely unsourced articles with no notability is to stub them down to the basics, and then PROD them. Stuff like this is basically vandalism, and should be dealt with as such. Laura Jamieson (talk) 23:11, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

Laura Jamieson, I wouldn't have much of a problem with the hacking and blanking if the articles were "completely unsourced articles with no notability"; I mean, I would still think the matter should be handled like you stated, but Spacecowboy420 is often removing easily verifiable content, paying WP:Preserve no mind. He's not checking for verifiability or notability; that's why I pointed to the Child grooming case and cases like this one, where he prodded the article for deletion and another editor had to come in and fix the mess. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:40, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

I expect this type of edit to stop until Spacecowboy420 comes here and engages in discussion. --NeilN 23:18, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

I got tagged to this conversation, and will weigh in that I don't think the content being removed from Cebu Pacific falls so obviously short of sourcing requirements as to justify these removals. Specifically, while I share much of his objections to the use of primary sources, material sourced to primary sources is sufficiently acceptable as to require discussion. For Dasmariñas Village, though, the problem is more that he doesn't delete cleanly: replacing it with a redirect to Makati City would have been quite justifiable. Leaving the article as it was, after being tagged as unsourced for seven years, would have been completely irresponsible. It's an example of exactly how useless the "citation needed" tags are.—Kww(talk) 23:39, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

I tend to agree that at least some of the material removed from the Cebu Pacific article, particularly including its having merged with other airlines, probably merits inclusion, and, I assume, could probably have sources found if in fact the editor who removed it were more interested in improving the article than in, basically, unilaterally removing everything with sometimes questionably phrased edit summaries. John Carter (talk) 23:43, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

I see the behavior of Spacecowboy420 as very concerning. This editor does not understand sourcing guidelines or policy at all. We all know that material needs to be "challenged" and may be removed, but the mere existence of a refimprove or noref tag is not, per se, a challenge of contentious material. Absent a BLP violation or blatent copyvio, the standard procedure is to initiate discussion. My take:

1. WP:PRIMARY is widely misunderstood; it does not prohibit use of primary sources, it simply explains where they are and are not appropriate. In the case of the Cebu Pacific article, it was filled with a lot of cruft, but some of the material removed was fine, and taking out something apt to be verified simply due to a cn tag is a lack of due diligence.
2. this was just inappropriate content removal without discussion.
3. this was a completely inappropriate edit summary
4. this had no justification for blanking. and properly reverted. Unsourced, yes, but blanking was overkill$.
5. prodding and deleting content of an article in this fashion was completely inappropriate.
6. this was at least in response to a discussion, so OK in style, I make no coment as to the validity of the content or arguments advanced.
7. completely inappropriate edit summary. Also inappropriate blanking.

• That's all for now from me. I'd say a restriction may be in order that in the future Spacecowboy420 cannot blank or prod tag any article, if he has issues, he can either file a proper AfD, or if there is a prod concern, ask someone else to do it for him. Spacecowboy420 should be required to make blanking requests via either the BLP noticeboard or Copyvio noticeboards. If he chooses not to respond here, I'd suggest a one-week block might get his attention. Montanabw 01:12, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

I don't see the need for a prod restriction, but I do support a restriction on blanking articles, per mine and other arguments above and elsewhere. Ha, I'll even ping User:Kvng with whom I am having a disagreement on some prods - see, there are people who go far, far further then me... Perhaps instead of deprodding my prods you could see if there are improperly blanked Spacecowboy's articles out there? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:44, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

I will take aboard the constructive criticism and advice given here and accept that when I removed unsourced content on some articles, it might have been a good idea to consider 1. checking that I didn't remove valid content. 2. contacting the editors who inserted the content in the first place and asking them to provide sources. 3. redirects instead of virtually empty topics. If I feel the need to remove content from an article (due to lack of sources/primary sources/etc) I will take more care and consider if removal actually benefits the article, or if there is a better way to deal with it. Thanks Spacecowboy420 (talk) 08:18, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

P.S. This might just have been a case of an editor with a previous negative interaction with me, getting a little too overzealous with ANI reports. I'd rather say "yeah, ok, I'll be careful" than get involved in another prolonged dramafest, over a really simple issue. C'est la vie. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 11:05, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

Spacecowboy420, as made clear before and then again, we both know that I've had many previous negative interactions with you, not just the Child grooming case. But, as is clear by others expressing the same concerns about your editing, that is not why I reported you here. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 05:47, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Spacecowboy420, like you I love lyric poetry more than drama, but this was not a dramafest over a simple issue. I mean, it was a simple issue, but repeated frequently and zealously. Few people like trimming articles more than I do, but wholesale blanking is quite another, and as such this is a matter for ANI. Had you not responded, and continued with the simple issue, there is little doubt you would have been blocked. Thank you, Drmies (talk) 12:12, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

Drmies My reaction was probably more to do with the source of the complaint, than the content. Rather than insult the source of the complaint, or comment on their motivation, it would be more constructive of me to pay attention to you, as you've always spoken total sense. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 12:33, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

Spacecowboy420, if I could get that last bit in an affidavit, I'd be mighty grateful. Drmies (talk) 14:02, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

@Spacecowboy420: I find it curious that you "banned" Flyer22 Reborn and Montanabw from your talk page over this. Are you trying to make it harder for them to resolve issues with you in the future? Rebbing 14:07, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

Rebb - No, I'm trying to get a little peace and quiet in my editing life. A quick "ping" gets my attention to any post, if required. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 14:20, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

In that case, I must comment that Spacecowboy420 needs to be explicitly warned that blanking material simply for being uncited or for having an old {{cn}} tag is an improper response per WP:PRESERVE. If an article is overly promotional or COI in tone, appropriate tags should be placed and the editors in question be properly informed. Most of all, it is completely inappropriate to use language in edit summaries such as these (all in his last 500 edits) no matter what the provocation—or even accuracy of the sentiment:

1. "buying planes and having routes is not fucking notable"
2. "shit article. POV/OR/NO sources."
3. "Do I want an ignorant template on my pretty talk page? Nope. It can fuck off." (in response to a warning, no less)
4. "fuck this article sucks...."
5. "not a collection of fucking pictures"
6. "This article sucks. ..."
7. "no shit, sherlock. Next thing you will be informing us that water is wet?"
8. "promotional crap..."
9. "Promotional crap."
10. "more crap removed"
11. "lots of crap removed, for numerous awesome reasons..."

• Spacecowboy420 appears to be an erudite individual and perfectly capable of using a thesaurus to find synonyms for these assorted four-letter expletives. (I did not note uses where the individual used said words to describe his own actions, which is acceptable as it is either self-deprecating humor or commentary on one's own actions) My suggestion is that any further behavior such as these examples above result in an immediate 24-48 hour block for each occurrence. Inappropriate blanking or inappropriate prod-tagging may need to be addressed on a case by case basis, but Spacecowboy420 needs to be strongly admonished that this is not appropriate. Montanabw 17:12, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Let's not spend time on trying to figure out what kind of individual Spacecowboy420 is and focus on addressing the behavior. I think the whole matter of blanking material has been settled, and I expect not to see it come up again. Spacecowboy420, the swearing in edit summaries is needlessly provocative and adds no value to the work you are doing, so please drop it. This summary is not an acceptable way to talk to other editors. There are other ways to explain the removal of material you think is problematic. I JethroBT 17:25, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
    • The thing is that a literal reading of WP:BURDEN does support Spacecowboy420's behaviour. As written, editors can remove content if they don't like the sourcing, and there aren't any limits or qualifiers on that power. WP:PRESERVE suggests otherwise but we have a number of editors who are seriously arguing that BURDEN trumps PRESERVE. It's not proportionate or reasonable to warn editors for doing what our policies specifically say they can do. In my view the correct response to this isn't to impose sanctions on Spacecowboy420. It's to clarify WP:BURDEN by explaining how far it goes.—S Marshall T/C 18:27, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
      • Another option might be to either place the removed material on the article talk page, allowing people to still have access to it for the purposes of finding sources for what it says, or alternately adding a wikilink of the edit history of the article showing the material removed. John Carter (talk) 18:31, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

Spacecowboy420, I would prefer not to visit your talk page. Indeed, my visiting that talk page has been a rare occasion. I prefer not to visit the talk pages of those I have a tempestuous history with. But Misplaced Pages requires that I notify you of a WP:ANI report I've started on you, regardless of already having pinged you in this section. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 05:47, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

I'd first like to thank S Marshall for presenting the devil's advocate position, above, since he's firmly in the opposite camp; it was a very classy thing to do. I'm one of the people who are arguing, as he says, "BURDEN trumps PRESERVE". However, even those of us who believe that make a couple of possible exceptions to the removal rights given by BURDEN. First, most of us concede that it is likely a sanctionable practice to make a regular or habitual practice of removing material merely because it is unsourced without making a good faith effort to find a source for the material, especially if it appears that doing so is pursuant to a topical agenda or POV (it being somewhat unclear whether or not it is sanctionable without that factor being present; most cases which have come here to ANI without it that I've seen or been involved in — which may be simply luck of the draw — have ended with considerable criticism of the practice, but no sanctions). Second, and much less certain, is the idea that even a single removal of a large amount — blanking — of material from a single article may be sanctionable. (And, of course, even if neither of those exceptions is present, edit warring over a removal is not permitted.) I have not looked and do not know whether Spacecowboy420 has engaged in either of those practices, but I do find the edit comments quoted by the good Montanabw, above, to be disturbing, especially if it is combined with one of those practices, and I wanted to add this additional information for what it's worth. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 20:39, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

What's interesting here is that both WP:PRESERVE and WP:BURDEN redirect to policies, and both state pretty clearly that editors should "consider" fixing problems rather than just blanking things. Use of the {{cn}} tag is encouraged. My own position is that tagging is superior to blanking, as it gives the article editors an opportunity to fix problems. At the very least, going around and declaring that articles "suck" or are "shit" is WP:BITEY at its worst, highly incivil and does not contribute to the good of the encyclopedia. It's one thing to become irate at a well-established editor or a true vandal, but where we have these low-quality-but-good-faith articles, it is more appropriate to use tags or at least a more educational edit summary. The idea of moving large swaths of blanked material to the talk page is also a good one. Montanabw 23:29, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Not commenting on the totality of the editors blanking career, but just looking at his edits to Child grooming in particular, since that's part of my long-term area of watching. Edits such as this and this... twice removing the blue-sky statement Child grooming is an activity done to gain the child's trust as well as the trust of those responsible for the child's well-being... is an action that makes me quite nervous about that editor. I'm not saying that this proves anything, but it would be consistent with a highly problematic editor. It's a red flag to me. However, based on the above, it seems highly likely that this editor just likes to delete material generally for some unclear reason, and happened to pick that passage more or less at random. I guess. It's still not something I like to see. Herostratus (talk) 16:08, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

"...just likes to delete unsourced material" would have expressed the apparent situation as it stands rather more precisely, I think. _Muffled 16:16, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

• That paragraph was unsourced but extremely easy to source. When I got tagged on the talk page I was able to find a source within minutes of seeing it. For the reasons Herostratus gives, it's the single most problematic one of Spacecowboy420's recent edits and it spawned a colossal discussion on WT:V and WT:EP. WP:BURDEN does allow editors to remove paragraphs in this way, and in my view the problem is with the policy rather than with the editor ---- barring a little salty language in the edit summaries. (The edit summary part of this AN/I is clearly going nowhere except for a mild warning. This is a first offence and we don't need long AN/I discussions to deal with a little bad language. The difficult part of this AN/I is about policy.)—S Marshall T/C 19:34, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Sorry for the late reply, I do offline things at the weekend, so I wasn't aware of the drama unfolding here, until I got back online.

Seeing the amount of time people have put into discusing things here, I guess it would be polite of me to comment on a few points.

1. Burden vs Preserve. I've had this discussion with some of the editors here, in the past, on other discussion pages, and I still stand by my comments that WP:BURDEN does allow us to remove content that is lacking a source. To me this is so important, because it encourages editors to add sources, rather than just add content and rely on other editors to find the sources. If it becomes standard that editors are reported for removing unsourced content, then we might as well remove the need for sources on anything other than BLP related content. The editor that adds content should provide a source. The editor that restores unsourced content should provide a source. The editor removing the content, may choose to be kind and provide a source, but that's their option, removing the content should be just as valid an option.

2. I was willing to accept some of the valid points made that criticized me, because it helps to be open minded, and I just want to get on with editing articles. I could have spend days debating burden VS preserve, but to be honest, I wasted enough time the last time it was discussed and we got nowhere, so I chose the easy option and stated that I would look at other options, that certainly does not mean that I accept unsourced content should not be removed. Removal is one valid option, my error was that I didn't consider the other options enough.

3. I used profanity in my edit summaries. I have major issues with this complaint for a number of reasons...

Firstly, I was being reporting for removal of content/blanking - an editor who I have had previous issues with, Montanabw, decided to get involved, hoping (or to be more accurate, requesting) that I should receive a block and/or be subject to editing restrictions. When I decided to be tactful and open minded about the criticism, accepting that I could have performed my edits in a number of different ways, rather than jumping into a big fight in ANI, it seemed as if this would all be resolved without any sanctions against me. So, seeing this situation not resulting in sanctions, Montana decided she had better find something else to complain about, in an attempt to get my account blocked for something...anything... This is not what ANI is about, this is just vindictive. ANI is not here to gain revenge on editors that you have had an edit related conflict with. Actually, this is not what Misplaced Pages is for, not just ANI>

Secondly, I swear. I swear in real life. I am aware of civility rules in Misplaced Pages, and specifically in regards to edit summaries. I would never use profanity or anything else offensive to attack an editor. Telling someone to fuck off, or telling someone that they are a dumbass are personal attacks. Something that (AFAIK) has never been in my edit summaries. Using words like nigger, fag or whore are offensive towards a group of people, without the need to actually direct them at anyone - I have never used that sort of language in my edit summaries, or on[REDACTED] (AFAIK). I am sorry if someone doesn't like my colorful language, but the intent is not to offend. The same as someone might be offended with my views on homosexuality, race, religion, etc - my use of profanity is something that I guess people should learn to either accept or ignore, because we can't all have the same moral feelings on everything.

Finally, when I initially saw the report about my profanity, I actually stopped and thought for a moment. Maybe Montana actually had a point? Maybe, if I ignore the fact that we had a dispute in the past, perhaps she has different standards to me, and is genuinely offended by my profanity in my edit summaries?

Then I saw the following in her edit summaries:

crap

crap

shit

unsourced bullshit, stop adding it back in.

I would suggest that editors can draw their own conclusions about the whole situation. A complaint was made against me, for using profanity in edit summaries, by an editor who has used very similar profanity in their edit summaries. (note: the above are all from May 1st 2016 onwards) - the only difference is that I am not requesting an editing block, a threat of a block, or other sanctions against that editor, I just want them to stop bugging me. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 07:09, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

• Stuff like this or this is IMHO openly disruptive. Cleaning up articles is one things, leaving the articles destroyed and without any meaningful content, not even caring about generating code errors and leaving random sentences with no context in the actual articles, is just WP:DISRUPTPOINT and goes against WP:COMMONSENSE. Let alone that bold removal of primary sourced contents just because they are primary sourced contents underlines serious competence issues. Also, apparent refusal of collaboration and aggressive edit summaries are also a problem, as well as signs of batteground behaviour (eg. see point 3 in the message above).Frankly, I think he is blockable, I don't see here a serious editor who cares of the encyclopedia. He says in the response above he'll change his attitude, but the response itself does not show he understood he was wrong and that there is a difference between "removing unsourced content" and leaving blanked or semi-blanked articles with nonsense contents. For the record, I have had zero interaction with this editor nor I have apparently ever edited any article he "cleaned up" . Cavarrone 08:41, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

I'd say that calling something a "shit article" has exactly the same meaning as calling it a "poor article" - it's just a choice of words that some people have decided to have a little drama over. (while using the same language themselves)

In regards to removing content, as I have already stated "...If I feel the need to remove content from an article (due to lack of sources/primary sources/etc) I will take more care and consider if removal actually benefits the article, or if there is a better way to deal with it." - I don't see what the problem is. Misplaced Pages:BLOCKNOTPUNITIVE seems highly relevant, for an editor who has 1. agreed to look at better ways to deal with an issue. 2. made no further edits that have the issues that were pointed out in the report. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 09:49, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

• Comments like "that some people have decided to have a little drama over" show further lack of understanding regarding what is a helpful attitude for a collaborative community. No one cares what Spacecowboy42 does in real life, but editing Misplaced Pages requires competence and collaboration. There is no problem with the occasional expletive, but anyone who is generally unable to avoid profane edit summaries probably does not have the right temperament for Misplaced Pages. I encountered Spacecowboy42 here and that experience confirms this report. Johnuniq (talk) 10:14, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

• Noting the irony that Johnuniq's example shows Spacecowboy420 actually opposing the removal of material... _Muffled 10:58, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

So, you're basing your comments here on a pre-existing bias you had against me. If you're you're going to complain just because I said "fuck" then you and I have different opinions about what is acceptable re. civility guidelines. Personally, I'd rather focus on content, than care about who used profanity. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 10:38, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

• If you want to focus on content and not care about the use of profanity then go ahead, just remember not to use profanity yourself. That way you can ignore it when others use it. Personally I try to think of edit summaries as direct and public communication with the people whose words I'm changing. Some of my edit summaries can be terse, especially "not curly" for people who have spelled public without the l, and "secularisation in action" for sportsfans who believe their team would play better if there was a hay filled cradle on the touchline instead of a shouty sweary guy disrupting the flow of instructions from the fans to the players. So apologies if I have a mote in my eye. But I'd like all involved to think through how their edit summaries might appear to the person they are talking to. To me describing someone's work as shit or crap is unhelpfully unspecific and rather more serious than calling it poor. Poor quality work is goodfaith but error laden, biased and unreferenced. Crap or shit work would be work of negative value such as unfunny hoaxes and perhaps the most blatant advertising. Writing "that would need an independent source", or "enemy is a non neutral term" takes longer than most expletives, but is more likely to change others behaviour. ϢereSpielChequers 10:52, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

• The user's heard the community's view about that; hasn't quite fully accepted it but this is a first offence. Wikipedians constantly surprise me but I don't currently see how anyone could close this AN/I with anything more than --- or less than --- a warning or mile rebuke about bad language in edit summaries. The content removal is another matter but policy does say the user can do this. We can argue about whether it should say that ---- whether there's a case for putting some kind of limit on how much content you can remove under WP:BURDEN all at once ---- but at the moment policy does say he can do it and the place to change that is WT:V. I hope this AN/I can be closed shortly as there doesn't seem to be much else to it.—S Marshall T/C 17:10, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

User:KatrinaMcCaffery has requested admin intervention

KatrinaMcCaffery has requested admin intervention at User talk:KatrinaMcCaffery#Nomination of Oliver Trevena for deletion. I understand she is unhappy that a number of her articles have been nominated for deletion and is alleging WP:HOUNDING. I'm involved in recent actions w.r.t. Ms. McCaffery at Misplaced Pages:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#User:KatrinaMcCaffery_.26_User:Kittymccaffery and in subsequent AfDs, and so will not venture an opinion here. --Tagishsimon (talk) 06:48, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

This user seems to have multiple cases of WP:COI and also WP:MULTIPLE. I do not think it's hounding when you point out issues. Coderzombie (talk) 22:51, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

User:Siuenti

For the past day, Siuenti (talk · contribs) has been involving himself in edit wars on various film articles, insisting that the plot summaries should include the cast members. I have told him numerous times to read WP:FilmPlot, but he has ignored my advice and claims that I am "inconveniencing readers solely to decrease the work count". - Areaseven (talk) 14:48, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

Looks like you may have forgotten to notify the editor, so I've done that for you :) -- samtar 14:51, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

Can I ask that Areaseven refrains from editing in this area until s/he at least realizes that their is a downside to his/her edits? Siuenti (talk) 14:59, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

I believe there has been previous consensus at WT:FILM that it is unnecessary to include actor names in Plot summaries if they are provided elsewhere, though I'm admittedly having some trouble finding a specific link. I believe editors would generally agree that in such cases, removing actor names to comply with WP:FILMPLOT is appropriate. A relevant discussion from six months ago can be reviewed at Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Film#Cast names in plot summaries. My reading of that is that the editors who participated in the conversation felt that when there is a Cast section, including actor names in the Plot section is redundant.

In any case, edit-warring over such is highly inappropriate. WP:BRD would obviously seem the reasonable path to follow in such cases. DonIago (talk) 15:07, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

I would note that WP:FILMPLOT does say specifically, "(Discuss with other editors to determine if a summary cannot be contained within the proper range.)". So, if discussion is not occurring, that's a problem, and the guideline as written appears to favor summaries that are within compliance. DonIago (talk) 15:10, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

So let's have a discussion maybe at WP:FILM and then you can go back to reducing the work word count if you still think it's justified. Siuenti (talk) 15:22, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

You're welcome to start one. In fact, you probably should have started one before matters escalated to this point. I see no reason to start one myself as I'm satisfied with the existing guidelines. I'd go so far as to say that if you're willing to cease your current editing pattern for now, initiate a discussion on this matter, and then abide by whatever consensus emerges, that there's no need to pursue this further. DonIago (talk) 15:26, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

Hmmm I'm not too sure that discussion you linked to shows consensus but I'll take your word for it. I'd still like to ask people who think there is no downside to their actions not to engage in edit wars until they have listened to the other side. Siuenti (talk) 16:25, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

A large number of possible CSD U2s from semiautomation

Hi, I noticed that many of these pages here would qualify for CSD U2:

• Special:PrefixIndex/User talk:User:
• Special:PrefixIndex/User talk:User talk:  Done

Some of these are sockpuppet notices by other users (who must have mistyped in Twinkle), or misled moves. I believe they should be deleted, but it would take me a while to CSD tag them. Did not want to spam MfD either... unless you think that really is the appropriate venue. — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 02:43, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

I just moved one which was moved to the wrong location while attempting to archive. So some additional manual review should be done. --kelapstick 02:48, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

If you use link classifier, it's easy to pick out the redirects, which can just be deleted, vs. the ones which actually should be moved. I am looking at user talk at the moment. --kelapstick 02:51, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

@Kelapstick: Thanks. I have this bookmarked for now, probably won't be able to get to more of this until tomorrow. But yeah, tons of U2s. — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 03:04, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

I think stuff like User talk:User:figure8state should just be deleted; twinkle created page that doesn't have any use since the account is blocked. Maybe this should be one of the checks enforced on Twinkle -- preventing "User:" from being added to the username field at ARV - sockpuppet or ignoring it if it is added. One option is to add verified links over to something like Misplaced Pages:User or user talk pages of non-existent users for deletion. Any admin can then delete the whole list using Twinkle batch delete, this won't bloat up CAT:CSD or MfD. —SpacemanSpiff 03:07, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Most of the user talks are archiving errors, I am almost done fixing them. Haven't looked at the user ones though. --kelapstick 03:09, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Many of these pages came from Twinkle sockpuppet notices and welcomes. Also, a non-trivial number of these pages came from October 2014, which leads me to believe there was a Twinkle or MediaWiki bug around that time. A couple are automated bot postings or message services delivered to incorrect pages due to setup error. — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 06:07, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

I just brought a good number of these to MfD to clarify why they should be deleted, although, truly, they all satisfy WP:U2 as they currently stand without moving. I'm wondering if, after this is cleaned, it's reasonable to add these prefixes to the title blacklist? (Possibly including "Misplaced Pages:User:" and "Misplaced Pages:User talk:" as well?) — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 22:56, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

I deleted that batch as uncontroversial housekeeping because they were obviously created in error, are mostly no longer relevant and the probability of the user reading the messages is extremely small. MER-C 12:55, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

@MER-C, Kelapstick, and SpacemanSpiff: As of this post, there are about 5-6 pages left under "User talk:User:". They've been CSD tagged, or the owner notified. The others have been MfDd or moved. I think this is essentially done. :) — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 18:23, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Fair bit of similarly weird stuff in other namespaces apparently too. SQL 18:49, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

30/500 in response to Никита-Родин-2002

For the background on this, please see Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Никита-Родин-2002. Since mid-April, this sockmaster has had 36 usernames and 22 IPs reported at SPI. These are by no means the only IPs he's used; there's probably at least another 50 in that time period, but it's often not useful to report them since he changes IPs frequently.

The modus operandi of this sockmaster is to introduce false information relating to the chart rankings and certifications of Green Day songs and albums. He occasionally also introduces similar false information to Kelly Clarkson, The Who, and Fall Out Boy related articles, mostly as part of a pattern of edits across multiple articles that reinforce his edits related to Green Day. For example, he might edit a Kelly Clarkson article to say one of her songs never topped the charts and also edit a Green Day article to say their song topped the charts during that same period. This often also extends to articles such as List of Billboard Hot 100 top 10 singles in 2005. Here are some example diffs:

This vandalism is sneaky and often goes undetected by recent changes patrollers, who assume the change is in good-faith. Semi-protection has recently proved ineffective, as the master has adopted a new strategy to get around it without detection. As seen with Ohlava, he registers an account weeks in advance, rapidly makes 10 edits in userspace, and then jumps right into semi-protected articles making disruptive edits for hours until blocked. When he decides to activate his "sleeper" accounts, he uses multiple accounts at once to maximize disruption and make it more difficult to effectively respond to the sockpuppetry. See the most recent report at the SPI link above for an example of two sleeper accounts being activated at the same time immediately after a non-sleeper vandalized articles that were not semi-protected.

I requested full protection in the midst of this most recent spree, but it was denied by MusikAnimal as too severe a response. A WP:30/500 restriction on these articles is the ideal solution. Kelapstick, a sitting arbitrator, recently commented at User talk:Opabinia regalis indicating that the Arbitration Committee does not have full control over the 30/500 protection level, and the community has discretion to support its use on any articles.

Should the community authorize administrators to apply 30/500 protection at their discretion to any articles where confirmed socks of Никита-Родин-2002 have continued their long-term pattern of vandalism despite semi-protection? ~ Rob 04:24, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. ~ Rob 04:24, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Question: is it possible to have some manner of edit notice for recent changes patrollers to see to alert them to specific page issues, in this case to be wary of sneaky changes to rankings or anything Green Day related? If not, 30/500 makes sense. I've encountered this user before and their persistence and perseveration is remarkable. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 04:57, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

@EvergreenFir: I could create an edit notice, but that doesn't pop up on Huggle or similar anti-vandalism tools. Most anti-vandalism tools won't even flag this in the first place and an edit notice can't change their algorithms unfortunately. An edit notice would only be shown once an editor clicked the edit tab, which I doubt many RC patrollers do. ~ Rob 05:02, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

• Support. In the absence of pending changes level 2 as an option, the only alternative for persistent subtly vandalizing sockpuppetry that semi-protection fails to stop is full protection. 30/500 raises the bar but still allows editing. Fences&Windows 11:05, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose until a more specific list of pages is given. I am worried about the potential for collateral damage: we have to recognize that pop music articles have high traffic counts and are more likely to be edited by "casual" editors. For example, a good-faith music fan who is only interested in a few artists may only edit sporadically, perhaps only when newsworthy events occur that involve their artist. It is easy to see why casual editors would accumulate enough edits to be autoconfirmed, but not extendedconfirmed. This is exactly the kind of editor that the broad use of 30/500 protection would drive away. With a more specific list of pages, at least the community could read through the page histories and examine the potential for collateral damage. Altamel (talk) 16:57, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
• Support, but I'm confused. BU Rob13, when I saw your request for page protection for Wake Me Up When September Ends, I decided to apply 30/500 for a couple of weeks in preference to full protection for a few days. Then I saw your comment that 30/500 doesn't have community consensus. But it's in the drop-down menu of protection options, and the ArbCom hasn't said that it can't be used. Is there a community discussion somewhere saying it shouldn't be used outside certain areas? SarahSV 17:33, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

• Having looked around, I assume people are relying on this January 2016 RfC – New usergroup with autopromotion to implement arbitration "30-500" bans as a page protection – where there was agreement to introduce the new usergroup. Robert McClenon closed it and added:

"Consensus is in favor of implementing this feature, with the noted reservation that it only is to be used with respect to pages where the ArbCom or the community has applied the 30/500 limitation, not in response to a request for page protection or any other reason."

I've only glanced at the RfC responses, but it's not clear that those restrictions gained consensus. SarahSV 18:35, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) Meh I don't particularly care for the precedent, and I was someone who dealt with Nikita way back when he was primarily doing Rainbow Fish and Ice Age vandalism (tbh I've always questioned the relationship between that Nikita and the current Nikita, but that's neither here nor there; both are sufficiently disruptive). My worry is that allowing 30/500 for articles targeted by persistent sockpuppeteers will create a situation where the exception—and 30/500 is clearly intended to be an exception—will swallow the rule, that we're an encyclopedia that anyone can edit. 30/500 was crafted to deal with mass disruption from a variety of unconnected or unconnectable accounts—where no conspiracy between individuals could possibly be proven. Have edit filters been tried? PC for specific affected articles? In any event, I concur with Altamel that even if we consider this appropriate, we need an indication that there's a limited number of articles, or that we can describe them with specificity. In general I just think the administrative practices involving the application and administration of 30/500 is not sufficiently sussed out that we should be considering an expansion of the mandate merely for convenience. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 17:41, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose a broad deployment of ECP to a large category (music album related articles?). However I would likely support a definite length PC2 after the targets were better identified. — xaosflux 17:55, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose until more clear general guidelines for 30/500 are created. This rollout doesn't need any further complication. Re-examining PC2 is a good idea. BethNaught (talk) 18:02, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Support Having further reviewed the evidence, that the current situation is being allowed to continue is absurd. PC2 would be bad because someone would still have to verify changes, with outsiders to the situation possibly being duped, and someone who knows about it having to fix it anyway.
  • This would be a provisional measure until the community decides clear guidelines in the RFC which appears to be upcoming. BethNaught (talk) 21:50, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
• Weak oppose per above. I'm concerned that these folks will then be aware of the 30/500 requirements, make 500 dummy edits, wait a month, and start vandalizing. We really need a guideline for WP:EC-P set up soon. — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 18:50, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
  • @Andy M. Wang: By that logic, shouldn't we get rid of semi-protection? Achieving extended confirmed status takes substantially more time and effort. That translates into less socks and less vandalism. ~ Rob 19:06, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
    • ... Yeah I'd agree. I think semi-protection is effective for cases where folks don't want to wait. EC-P might be fine for one or two cases then. If EC-P is rolled out in a big way, the amount of dummy/useless edits from new users might see increase, which is probably detrimental to the encyclopedia. This was a weak oppose for this one case, and don't feel very strongly, and would go with consensus on this. — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 19:11, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
• Some pages that are particularly in need of this restriction at the moment include Wake Me Up When September Ends, Boulevard of Broken Dreams (Green Day song), List of Billboard Mainstream Top 40 number-one songs of 2005, and List of Billboard Hot 100 top 10 singles in 2005. Take a look through those edit histories, which are typical of the Nikita-hit articles. It's almost exclusively socks and editors reverting those socks. Very few people edit song articles from over a decade ago which have already been expanded to include most information on the subject. We have two options here, really; either accept the fact that newer editors won't be able to edit these articles or accept the fact that they will remain in a near-constant state of factual inaccuracy. Both options suck, but one provides an accurate encyclopedia to our readers. I'm a strong supporter of the "anyone can edit" philosophy, but this is a situation where that philosophy is stopping us from providing factual content on an entire topic area. I should also mention that if the community fails to grant 50/300 here on procedural grounds, I plan to file a full ArbCom case relating to the topic area of Green Day, broadly construed. We need some solution here, because failing to implement a protection level that can effectively stop this sockmaster is implicitly volunteering dozens of hours of editors, SPI clerks, and CheckUsers who have been trying (and failing, really) to keep these articles factually correct. ~ Rob 19:06, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

  For that list, I'd consider a short term (say 60 day) IAR PC2 level to see if it is effective over ec2 - for immediate relief you can just go full protection while this is worked out. — xaosflux 20:44, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

  There isn't even consensus for PC2 to exist as a protection level, though. Full protection was declined at RFPP with the rationale that it should be handled at SPI (which has never been used as a venue to protect articles, as far as I'm aware). ~ Rob 21:48, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

  No comment on the merits of this use of ECP for obvious reasons (but see also this thread on my talkpage about procedural matters). But I was surprised to see the suggestion for IAR PC2 over (sort-of) IAR ECP for this. @Xaosflux:, why would PC2 be better? Opabinia regalis (talk) 22:06, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

  @Opabinia regalis: - here is my IAR reasoning for this specific case: while not heavily edited, these articles are more likely to have casual readers hit them then many other random articles (as they concern popular music) - PC2 presents more of a "encyclopedia anyone can edit" interface than ECP does that could possibly convert a reader to an editor. If these articles were on more "controversial" topics, I'd be more in favor of ECP. FWIW, I'm still in favor of the community guidelines for ECP being completed so that people can either stop asking for this, or point to the standard conditions for use. — xaosflux 23:49, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

  @Xaosflux: Thanks. Looking at the example articles, it seems like Rob is right that there's little to no editing going on other than reverting socks. So ECP vs PC2 doesn't matter much, probably, except that PC2 requires a little more work from admins (not sure if that's a feature or a bug). I agree entirely on your last point :) Opabinia regalis (talk) 05:07, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose, unless I missed the link to the discussion where Arbcom authorized the use of 30/500 in this case, as is currently required for any new deployment of 30/500. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 21:56, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

  Arbcom provided some guidance for how to use it in the context of AE and DS. What to do outside of that context is up to the community. Opabinia regalis (talk) 22:06, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

  @Ivanvector: Pinging just so you see the above. Multiple ArbCom members have explicitly stated their guidance was not intended to be a list of exclusive uses of 30/500 and that they consider community application of this protection level to be valid. @Opabinia regalis: An interesting thought to ponder: If enough editors mistakenly think that the community is unable to handle 30/500 protection, does it de facto become true? ~ Rob 22:30, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

  I don't agree with that interpretation. Arbcom authorized 30/500 for use in areas which it authorizes, and it has not authorized it for use here: this is neither discretionary sanction nor arbitration enforcement. The question of whether or not the community supports its use outside of those deliberately restrictive criteria has not been asked, and as I'm sure you know questions on changes to protection policies traditionally attract very long and heated discussions. We're talking about applying a very high level of protection to a large range of frequently edited articles here. I sympathize with the situation, but this is not the way to develop a solution. A very good way is the draft RfC advertised below, and a very bad thing to do would be to start applying it in advance of that discussion. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 23:27, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

  If your view of this is what's maintained by the community, then fine, but this will probably become a full ArbCom case against an already indefinitely blocked editor, which is fairly absurd. ~ Rob 00:07, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

• Support. We have an unusual vandalism case that our usual tools are inadequate to deal with, but we have a new tool that may solve the problem, and there's nothing stopping us implementing that tool except beauracracy. Well, WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY. Yes, we do need a broader discussion to delineate exactly when using this new tool is appropriate, but that's no reason not to use it in a case as clear-cut as this. Plus, this first use of 30/500 as a countervandalism measure will provide useful data to inform that discussion. Adrian J. Hunter 06:01, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
• Support - Since this community clearly isn't ready for elimination of IP editing and a one-person/one-account and sign-in-to-edit policy that would make this sort of unbannable sneaky vandalism difficult to cause and easy to correct, this sort of restriction is the best available tool... Carrite (talk) 14:39, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Village pump (idea lab)#Extended confirmed protection policy

Before I went to GLAM-Wiki Boot Camp, I started a discussion to gather ideas, but we need more voices. Mz7 has a draft of an RFC here. If you haven't done so already, please comment or edit the draft, because we need to move forward with this. I'd like to take the RFC live in the next week or so and we need input. Katie 21:16, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Closure of move request for Sport Aerobics

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I'm asking if someone could close the move request of Sport aerobics to Aerobic gymnastics. If this can not be done or I have not done the proper steps may I please get the instructions on what else I need to do. I appreciate it. :) -Rainbowofpeace (talk) 08:10, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

See WP:FORUMSHOP. Doc talk 08:20, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Thank you Doc I was not aware of that rule but I admit I broke it and apologize. Would you like me to remove it from one board? -Rainbowofpeace (talk) 10:36, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

My statement on that board has been archived and I cannot edit it. I followed the instructions on that page and am now trying to get the page moved. Will you help me?-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 10:51, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

• I do not think that this is really a case of WP:FORUMSHOP. Rainbowofpeace asked at AN on 10 June for the page to be moved and was directed to WP:RM. They started a requested move discussion and now they are asking for it to be closed. Nothing wrong with that other than this is not the usual place to ask for a requested move discussion to be closed. These are simply the actions of an inexperienced editor. Rainbowofpeace: there are a number of people who work at WP:RM on closing discussions listed there and they will no doubt get round to reviewing your request today or tomorrow. If you want to raise this anywhere, Misplaced Pages talk:Requested moves would be a better place. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 13:07, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Thank you Malcolm I'm sorry for not following the procedures correctly I haven't edited wiki for a while and have gotten rusty on the different noticeboards. I appreciate you assuming good faith. I will wait a couple of days. What steps should I take after that? -Rainbowofpeace (talk) 09:12, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

I see that it has now been reviewed and relisted, that will be because there has been no participation in the discussion. I'm afraid that will mean waiting another week or so. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 13:24, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Ad hominem attack to shut down discussion about Omar Mateen's foreign travel

On the Talk Page for the Pulse night club shooting, a discussion about the foreign travel made by Omar Mateen was shut down after an editor used an ad hominem attack against other editors, who supported including the foreign travel information in the article. The editor said that others were engaging in "racial paranoia" for supporting factual inclusion of the foreign travel information, and the editor removed cited references to Mateen's foreign travel from the article. Despite requests that the travel be factually described, the edits were not reverted. This issue could not be resolved on the Talk Page for the Pulse night club shooting, where material or well-sourced information was provided by others. An effort to discuss this with the editor, who is gate-keeping the Pulse night club shooting article, on the editor's Talk Page proved unsuccessful. Is there a protocol to follow when ad hominem attacks are used to shut down discussion about edits ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maslowsneeds (talk • contribs) 23:15, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

• I see no personal attacks in that edit summary or on the talk page. I'll ping InedibleHulk since the plaintiff didn't notify them. Drmies (talk) 23:34, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

@Maslowsneeds: Are you talking about InedibleHulk? If so, you did not notify him of this discussion; I have done so for you. Where is this ad hominem attack? I read the talk page and I did not find any ad hominem attacks about anyone in the section to which you linked. Katie 23:37, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

And what discussion was shut down after said ad hominem? ―Mandruss ☎ 01:38, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

The editor accused people, who were requesting the inclusion of factual descriptions of travel, of racial paranoia ("it would seem less like racist paranoia"). As noted, references to the travel were removed by the editor, and appeals by people requesting the inclusion of material and cited facts about the travel went unheard, indicating that the requests were not going to be acted upon, despite their merit, revealing that obviously one editor is gate-keeping the article according to one editor's beliefs. I'm not interested in anymore ad hominem attacks from the editor merely by having made this request for protocol. My request here was for protocol for when ad hominem attacks occur as a way to block edits. Maslowsneeds (talk) 10:41, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

In case my ping somehow got lost, here is something I said to you 12 hours ago: . Perhaps it's worth saying that I have a lot of experience working with InedibleHulk and, while we sometimes strongly disagree, I have never known him to exhibit WP:OWN behavior. Past experience does inform our judgment on these things, and it should. Further, I've been at that same article almost since its inception and haven't noticed any WP:OWN from him there, either. It seems you're the sole beneficiary of his gate-keeping, for some reason. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:14, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

Maslowsneeds, you haven't pointed at any ad hominems. The "it" in the quote refers to the language in the article, not to ... well, "it" wouldn't really refer to an editor anyway. When attacks occur, one can warn the editor via the usual templates; see Misplaced Pages:Template messages/User talk namespace. But, again, there were no personal attacks here, no matter if you may feel that way. Drmies (talk) 13:25, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

An editor can be referred to as "it" for three reasons, with different degrees of acceptability. First, the editor is a bot. That is an acceptable use of pronoun gender in English. Second, the editor is suspected of being a bot. That is an aspersion. Third, the editor either is or is said to be LGBTQ. The use of the neuter pronoun for humans is insulting, even if we don't know their gender, and even if they don't want to specify their gender in the usual way. However, "it" did apply to the language. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:12, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

The language being invoked here is that advocating for the inclusion of travel information is tantamount to engaging in racist paranoia. How is that not an ad hominem attack on people suggesting the inclusion of factual information about the travel ? This isn't about feelings, and I don't get where you are coming from about that, except that by hiding behind the semantics of "it" is pretty weak. Nobody was requesting that travel information be included with any opinion or editorial connotation, malevolent or otherwise. The requests being made was for inclusion of factual description of the travel. The fact is that the spectre of racist paranoia was invoked by the editor. Nobody discussing edits chose to invoke inflammatory language, except the editor, who removed the cited travel information and who is apparently gate-keeping the article.Maslowsneeds (talk) 14:04, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

If that relatively innocuous comment were grounds for an ANI complaint, none of us would spend much time anywhere else. Also, I now gather that "the discussion was shut down" meant something other than the common interpretation, which is that the discussion was closed by an uninvolved editor due to the ad hominem you asserted. That was misleading, if unintentionally so. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:39, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

It's not relatively innocuous to accuse those suggesting for the inclusion of factual information about the foreign travel to be inciting racist paranoia. That would be equivalent to me saying that, because the subject matter relates to a hate crime against the LGBT community that, by blocking accurate information about the circumstances of the attack, it would be homophobic of editors to be engaging in the blocking. How would that not be considered an attack ? There is now a supposition on the talk page for the Pulse night club mass shooting attack that it is baiting to be suggesting edits that reflect the foreign travel. If somebody could cite what was inflammatory or objectionable about the original factual inclusion of the travel information that was removed by the editor, I would of course understand that there would be a sensitivity to wording that was objectionable, but nobody is asking for objectional content be included in the article. The suggestion I made was for inclusion of factual information. The gate-keeping editor, who invoked racist paranoia as a reason to remove and not include this information, perhaps that gate-keeping editor can suggest wording to factually describe the travel that is acceptable, so that the wording doesn't trigger any concerns ? Maslowsneeds (talk) 20:30, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

I don't have much to add in my own defense. What they said, pretty much. The racist paranoia is in the news, and we can use news sources, but we should just relay their facts, not the angles they take. All basic WP:NPOV stuff. InedibleHulk (talk) 18:34, June 19, 2016 (UTC)

Sanity check, please

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I asked مجتبیٰ (talk · contribs) why they had made a certain, now deleted, edit, and got the reply "Bishonen, hello. I think someone is using my account. I have to change my password as fast as i can. Thanks". So I blocked them, with a note encouraging them to create a new account and take good care of their new password. They're sad now. Was I too strict, or is that what we do? Bishonen | talk 08:32, 19 June 2016 (UTC). PS, they have now requested unblock. If it's considered acceptable to unblock them, I'd be happy to, of course. Bishonen | talk 08:40, 19 June 2016 (UTC).

No, you did the right thing, blocking a compromised account. They can say they've regained control of it now and changed the password, but there is no way to know it's really them or the person who took over the account. So unless someone can confirm their identity, I would keep them blocked.--Atlan (talk) 08:45, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Looking at his edits, I don't think that the account was compromised. More likely an edit conflict occurred and the user didn't understand that he was over-writing someone else. When confronted with this, he still didn't understand what had happened, and thought something along the lines of "well, i didn't do that, so someone else must have". IMHO, I think this is just a misunderstanding. Rami R 09:07, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I think it's the right call. Unless they had an SHA security key, or some other way of proving their identity, we really have no way of knowing who is talking to us now. I have declined an unblock request, though anyone else is free to unblock if they feel sufficiently assured by what the editor is saying. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:42, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

A thought... This user has a curious history of deleted edits, which only admins can now see. If they can identify something from that list from memory, that could be enough evidence of identity - all the deleted edits are from the past 10 days, so they should be able to remember at least one. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:50, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

They've made another unblock request, so I've asked if they can tell us anything about their deleted edits. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:41, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

They've convinced me they know enough about their deleted contributions, so I've unblocked - but it's now over to Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Mujtaba! Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:49, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

I declined this unblock request after seeing it on IRC. I have no objection if any admins finds a reason to decide differently. HighInBC 17:51, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

They offered more information about their deleted edits after that, which I'm pretty sure only the original owner of the account (or an admin) could have known. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 20:35, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Well, it's all moot. They have been blocked by a checkuser, see Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Gadri. Bishonen | talk 22:39, 19 June 2016 (UTC).

Knanaya

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This ANI is about the article Knanaya, multiple times this has been removed citing defunct accounts and linking them with anything asking a change from the article current libelous point of view. I thought of leaving it, but as a community member I find it hard.

From careful review Editor Cuchullain, has been long disrupting this article with a distorted version he have provided and continuously try to prove his point, WP:POVPUSH as the truth since 2012 to see evidnece: https://tools.wmflabs.org/sigma/usersearch.py?name=Cuchullain&page=Knanaya&server=enwiki&max=

In case of any alternative evidence or reference provided he re-butts it with wrong interpretation of policies or blocks. If the talk page history checked long list of community members disagreeing with his "swiderski" source as credible is an evidence if we can accept everyone included. A recent edit made to solve this issue by me was thwarted with 1 year block and revert, this seems unethical and inability to accept incremental changes. The editor continuously plays WP:NOTGETTINGIT, applies for block, then reverts to his edits and later acts all clean, this is part of his MO. This user also canvass' selected admins or tag-teams with selected editors for his means.

To see newer revision of the article with identifiable sources(all can be cross checked using google books): https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Knanaya&oldid=724642191

The users common target is editors who hold grudges and uses their user-rights as WP:GOLDENTICKET(editors who gets their way within the community project) like using edit filters to block any communication, reverting talk page conversation, looking for cornering and visibly rendering other editors voiceless in a manner that fits Misplaced Pages:Competence is required. I doubt their actions are always valid and acceptable, at-least it isn't with the Knanaya article. SpacemanSpiff is such an editor who have performed and further roped in Drimes: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Drmies&diff=prev&oldid=724726554 using some previous grudges with some editors. The article first was blocked by the editor, then when any communications made they were childishly removed without proper explanation and blocked reporting to ANI or talk page conversations using user-rights to discuss in between them to state their actions as correct. A crude method used is citing block evasion as a means for circumvention. SpacemanSpiffs actions were lowly to be considered as an admin, lacked basic etiquette, lacked judgement to review the edit of actions of editor Cuchullain to see she or he was promoting his private interest over the project rather than its expansion. SpacemanSpiff exercised his or hers user-rights to further Cuchullain's private interest. I strongly feel these actions of the admin should be answered.

I also suspect that these defunct or banned editors they talk about are made by themselves to use at situations like this, if so this should be checked by competitive users. Otherwise, there is nothing that explains with this warring reverts and wrongful blocks if it was anything concerning the article.

• If swiderski's material reviewed it can be identified that he himself is unsure of most of what he postulates here and there for taking a safe ground. There are newly published material that openly discredits swiderski's multiple origin story and this is equivalent to calling a child, a bastard, this seems to be a fact the editor secretly enjoys. The southerner reference is also widely misused. Accepting other sources of information and Removing swiderski's material entirely to not invite any future disputes is the only solution. But the active editor Cuchullain in the article continuously holds onto these Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories.

I strongly ope Cuchullain's massive WP:NOTGETTINGIT of Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories from 2012 will be popped by removing the article block and reverting the edit to : https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Knanaya&oldid=724642191 if asked he might even come up with dodging answers, his experience might help him to do this or to twist the policies. But this wouldn't fare well for the article or Misplaced Pages's thesis statement collaborative edit by the people who use it.

Note1: This ANI mentions editors with long-term experience and it is only natural to show herd mentality, but let them be all civil and well explained within wiki rules and regulations.

Note2:I may or may not be able to further provide responses, but I urge to check the issue and get answers and make changes to the article in question. Even stripping the article from swiderski to a basic article with minimum info is an option rather than filled with nonsense.117.248.60.163 (talk) 08:54, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Gibberish, wikilayering, and accusations of sockpuppetry. Suggest this be closed before the complainer digs himself an even deeper hole.142.105.159.60 (talk) 19:50, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

This is the latest IP sock of Psthomas (talk · contribs) who was trying to post this last week. IP blocked, expect more. Acroterion (talk) 23:07, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Long-term disruptive edits by dynamic ip

On the advice of User:Yaris678 I come here to have your advice about a months-lasting problem on articles dealing with 16-17th centuries Ottoman harem articles, i.e. sultans' children and concubines. These are repeatedly edited by an user using dynamic ip, who insists on the addition of unsourced content and often simply replaces sourced content with his own while keeping the source or adds a new unsourced content just before the footnote, thus making his unsourced statements appear sourced. Some pages have been protected some months ago, but the disruptive editing resumed as soon as the protection was lifted. The user doesn't answer when contacted, doesn't want or isn't able to go to talkpage. This article's history is symptomatic of the problem that goes on and on on several articles (, , etc etc) What do you suggest?--Phso2 (talk) 09:23, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

@Phso2:More than one IP range is being used so the only option seems to be requests for semi protection on articles being hit frequently. Doug Weller talk 05:57, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

User:Irene.emerita

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Irene.emerita has been clearly violating WP:NOTWEBHOST, as all of her contributions have been to her user page. She is clearly WP:NOTHERE. ThePlatypusofDoom (Talk) 12:58, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

This confirms it. She only wanted to use Wiki as a web host. Joseph2302 (talk) 15:08, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

User page has been been speedy deleted, and I don't see any other admin action needed here. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:06, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

EllenCT continues to disrupt Economic stagnation

EllenCT is once again performing disruptive edits to Economic stagnation. She is POV pushing by trying to insert something marginally related into a prominent position following the lede. All of this has been discussed on Talk Talk:Economic stagnation#Secular theory position in article Talk:Economic stagnation#Secular stagnation term used for recent economy "non neutrality" tag and Talk:Economic stagnation#Internationally. EllenCT never gained a consensus for her edits. She has a history of misrepresenting facts and arguing relentlessly on Talk and administrators noticeboards. She was reported here recently for edits to this article. She has a long history as a problem editor: ].Phmoreno (talk) 13:41, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Phmoreno is unwilling to discuss his specific objections on the article talk page, was unable to support his complaints here recently at and , and has proven time and again that he is unwilling or unable to support his accusations with specific diffs, reliable sources, and cogent prose. I deny the allegations and repeat my request that WP:BOOMERANG again be applied to restrict Phmoreno from editing on the topic of economics for at least six months and until he can agree to follow the reliable source criteria on WP:PSTS. EllenCT (talk) 14:39, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Do not believe this BS from her. This has been discussed extensively on talk and on this notice board. She makes misleading claims about sources and post marginally relevant information pushing her income inequality POV. She is unable to formulate a logical and truthful argument to justify her edits. This whole discussion took place here a couple of weeks ago but she waited until the discussion was archived. ] She is the one who needs to be permanently banned from economics topics for her misrepresenting sources and POV pushing or she'll just be on this notice board again in a few weeks.Phmoreno (talk) 15:34, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Here is VictorD7's comment from EllnCT's above diff:

EllenCT is by far the most disruptive, tendentious, aggressively soapboxing editor I've encountered on Misplaced Pages. She's also thoroughly incompetent, tossing out non sequiturs in a jargon word salad that sometimes convinces those who don't know better that she has some understanding of the topics she discusses (or even fully comprehends her own sources), a misconception it takes me and others countless hours of painstaking educating to debunk. This linked evidence section contains 70 diffs documenting instances of her misbehavior, with links to many more diffs by several other editors, all of which is the tip of the iceberg. The cited instances include her falsely accusing me of being a paid editor, leveling false accusations against other editors to try and discredit them, admitting her partisan editing agenda, blatantly lying, undeniably misrepresenting sources, and general POV pushing, disruptive behavior.

I am in total agreement with VictorD7. applying the Pareto principle: 80% of the problems are caused by 20% of the editors, but this is an understatement. I waste more time with EllenCT's disruptive and untruthful edits than problems with all other editors combined.Phmoreno (talk) 15:56, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

• Phmoreno says that EllenCT "has a long history as a problem editor" and gives a link (here) to a previous ANI report ... which was also started by him, and which ended up with a general agreement that he and VictorD7 were at least equally, if not more, problematic editors. Any admin reading this probably needs to look at this exchange between VictorD7 and Phmoreno in which the latter states " I will do whatever I need to to get rid of her distorted edits even if I cannot have her blocked". Looks like he's trying again, doesn't it? Laura Jamieson (talk) 16:33, 19 June 2016 (UTC)OK, I'm more convinced now. Laura Jamieson (talk) 15:25, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

those who doubt it can easily click through to see for themselves. How long do you think you can hold your unsupported position? EllenCT (talk) 18:05, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

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