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Unused bibliography

• Aronsen, Gavin (January 11, 2013). "Was Hitler Really a Fan of Gun Control?". Mother Jones.
• Bard, Mitchell (2001). The Complete history of the Holocaust. San Diego, CA: Greenhaven Press. ISBN 9780737703733.
• Bard, Mitchell (2008). 48 hours of Kristallnacht: night of destruction/dawn of the Holocaust: an oral history. Guilford, Conn: Lyons Press. ISBN 9781599214450.
• Brown, R. Blake (2012). Arming and disarming: a history of gun control in Canada. Toronto Ont.: University of Toronto Press. ISBN 9781442646391.
• Chapman, Simon (2013). Over our dead bodies: Port Arthur and Australia's fight for gun control. Sydney: Sydney University Press. ISBN 9781743320310.
• Frank, Monte (July 13, 2013). "The Holocaust taken in vain to promote gun rights". The Guardian. Guardian News and Media.
• Halbrook, Stephen (1985). That every man be armed: the evolution of a constitutional right. Albuquerque: University of New Mexico Press. ISBN 0826308686.
• Horwitz, Joshua; Anderson, Casey (2009). Guns, Democracy, and the Insurrectionist Idea. Ann Arbor: University of Michigan Press. ISBN 9780472021994.
• Polsby, Daniel D.; Kates, Don B. (1997). "Of Holocausts and Gun Control". Washington University Law Quarterly. 75 (3): 1237–1275.
• Rummel, R. J. (1994). Death by government. New Brunswick, N.J: Transactions Publishers. ISBN 9781412821292.
• Seitz-Wald, Alex (January 11, 2013). "The Hitler gun control lie". Salon. Salon Media Group.

Projecting on to the Past

Is there any record, dating from the time or very shortly afterwards, of German Jews having said anything along the lines of: If only it hadn't been for those fiendish gun control laws, we could have taken on the Nazis? If yes, is there any serious academic literature about it? Is there any record of how many firearms were actually handed in by German Jews? Moreover, when did most of the German Jews realize that they were facing not only persecution, but systematic murder? These points, too, need to be discussed - if there are reliable sources available. Norvo (talk) 02:30, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

There is a Misplaced Pages article on Jewish "pogroms" in pre-Soviet Russia, where there were no restrictions on carrying any guns whatsoever, even purchasing machine guns. Jews there formed armed self-defence units, which sometimes killed more attackers than there were Jews killed in these pogroms (again, according to the same Misplaced Pages article). Obviously German Jews would have protected themselves the same way Russian Jews had, had they had a chance? Why are you looking for some "academic literature", while there are examples in the actual history? Speaking of Germany, Afaik, citizens there were denied the right to wear firearms long before Hitler, ever since Weimar republic, i.e. since approx. time when German Empire ceased to exist. By the time Jewish persecution started in the 1930s, nobody in Germany had guns anyway for many years (except Nazi party members etc.).

It is a very common tendency, too - empires like British, Russian, German allowed their citizens to wear guns, whereas "republics" which replaced these "oppressive regimes" (or quasi-republics, like United Kingdom), do not. 108.161.123.243 (talk) 04:12, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

Nominate for deletion

This is a pretty pitiful encyclopedia article. This is not a theory. This is an argument about the merits of gun control with nazi germany used as a framework example. Anything here belongs in an article about the pros and cons of gun control legislation or one about the politics of gun control. Nominate for deletion — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.207.135.183 (talk) 16:39, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

The procedure for requesting article deletion is at WP:AfD.Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:31, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

That's great. you should get that started since you are working on this article and monitoring this page....there are lots of other guidelines in[REDACTED] that are violated here in this article as well that you should try to get to. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.207.135.183 (talk) 21:16, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

I am a reader of Misplaced Pages, and once in a while I make small contributions to articles, usually grammatical edits and such. I must say that an purly partisan article like this does not belong on Misplaced Pages, and maybe would feel more at home at the Southern Poverty Law Center. 100.11.61.51 (talk) 02:57, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Do you think the title and subject of the article are okay, or instead the whole thing is no good? When you say it belongs at SPLC, do you mean the article seems like something the SPLC would write, or instead is like the stuff that SPLC criticizes? Keep in mind that anything about Nazis is always bound to be somewhat controversial.-Anythingyouwant (talk) 03:04, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

There are articles about all notable conspiracy and fringe theories. Your comment about the SPLC is confusing. I imagine you dislike them, but their analysis is respected in mainstream sources. TFD (talk) 07:46, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

I imagine (using your own words) that by "mainstream sources" you mean the leftist media. Some of the world's "mainstream sources" were the Pravda newspaper of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (sold 10 million copies in 1975), as well as Völkischer Beobachter (1.7 million sold in 1944), the leading German newspaper in the 1930-40s. The NYT only sold 1.8 million copies (5 times less than Pravda) last year. 108.161.123.243 (talk) 04:22, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

Here: http://www.conservapedia.com/Gun_Control_in_Nazi_Germany . Fill your boots.204.40.194.137 (talk) 15:16, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

The whole concept of this article is simply implausible, not because of the rights or wrongs of gun legislation but because of a complete lack of context. Does nobody here understand anything about the laws which preceded the 1938 act? The first thing any student of Nazi history would look at is the Enabling Act, which handed Hitler and the Nazis unlimited power to legislate without taking it to the Reichstag. That happened in 1933, along with the Reichstag Fire Decree, which abolished civil liberties. Anything after that basically targeted Jews, specifically. So the point is that the Anti-Jewish legislation in prewar Nazi Germany was so draconian that banning 1% of the population from owning guns - after they had basically been banned from owning anything else - would have made no difference. Nobody could have stopped Hitler with a bunch of old shotguns, especially when private gun ownership was quite rare. Anyone who believes otherwise is living in cloud cuckoo land. On top of that, Hitler's personal popularity was always high - astronomically so - until the Battle of Stalingrad, at which point it started to wane. There was the 20 July Plot, which failed spectacularly and after that, his popularity went up again. In fact, few people wanted to be rid of Hitler until right at the end. There is only one country in the world where such an argument could ever gain any traction: the USA. It has no place on Misplaced Pages, which is supposed to be global. Flanker235 (talk) 13:56, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Your comments were doing fine as far as explaining your personal views of the merit of the theory; until your penultimate and last sentences displayed their real intent. This article is about the existence of a theory. It does not attempt to validate the theory (nor should it), it should simply describe something that exists, using reliable sources. Imagine my shock to learn that crazy theories exist only in the USA. Apparently France does not harbor or encourage bizarre theories, and apparently it turns out David Icke is an American, based upon the premise. The 'global' argument is fantastical. Because an idea is popular in a particular country, it should be banished from Misplaced Pages? Absurd. If you have some suggestions for improving the article, then by all means your contributions would be welcome. Arguing that because a theory is bad it should therefore not be described in Misplaced Pages is completely contrary to the purpose of Misplaced Pages. Anastrophe (talk) 15:36, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Spare me the sarcasm. Any inference that I would be opposed to it on the basis of freedom of speech would be ill-founded. The point I'm making is that there were already so many other oppressive laws in Germany that changing the gun laws, in a culture which did not have widespread gun ownership, would have made no difference. Therefore the article is irrelevant. None of the points it raises are discussed in context but in isolation. Even as an example of "alternative history" it holds no water because if anyone had wanted to rub Hitler out before the 1938 law was introduced, they already had five years in which to do it. And he was out there, meeting his adoring public and kissing babies. There were plenty of opportunities. The fact is that Hitler was so popular with Germans that it was never going to happen. Hundreds of thousands turned up to his rallies. Women went into hysterics in his presence. Modern celebrities and rock stars had nothing on him. That's why this article is an irrelevance. It ignores the historical truth. Misplaced Pages does not exist to give oxygen to what is, in this case, misinformation. Flanker235 (talk) 12:39, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Again, your personal opinions on these matters are noted. Misplaced Pages exists to describe all aspects of existence and knowledge. The article describes a topic that exists. It does not promote those ideas. I don't like the ideas the KKK propounds; that doesn't mean that the KKK and their ideas don't exist, and it doesn't mean that we scrub them from the encyclopedia. Similarly, I consider the ideas of flat-earthers irrelevant; that doesn't mean we scrub the article about them, because 'irrelevant' is not a criterion for whether something that exists should be described. Describing an idea that does exist does not explicitly or implicitly lend legitimacy to it. None of your arguments validate the idea of deleting the article. Anastrophe (talk) 17:32, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Except that without an historical context, it is misinformation. Is there an article on the conspiracy theory about AIDS you referred to earlier? What would be the basis for its inclusion? You said earlier that "Arguing that because a theory is bad it should therefore not be described in Misplaced Pages is completely contrary to the purpose of Misplaced Pages.", yet the aim of Misplaced Pages is to provide reference-grade material. Without a historical context, it is virtually impossible to provide that level of quality. This is not an argument to say that the point does not exist. I have never disputed that so there is no need to raise the point again. I have also not argued the pro or anti point of view in terms of its use in the current gun debate. I am saying that without a context, it is about as relevant for inclusion as the carpet in my lounge room. Flanker235 (talk) 04:57, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Again, your personal opinion on the matter is noted. You've yet to provide a rationale for deletion that falls within Misplaced Pages's criteria for same. What is irrelevant to you or your lounge room is immaterial. What is relevant is whether the subject matter is described accurately, using reliable sources to do so, and without giving undue weight to any particular opinion on the matter. Anastrophe (talk) 06:12, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

@Flanker235: The article doesn't say that the Nazi gun control theory is correct. It says that there is such a theory. Did you read the "Reaction and opposition" section of the article? It gives a lot of details about why most people don't agree with the theory. Furthermore in the lead section the second of the two paragraphs summarizes this mainstream non-acceptance. This is analogous to Misplaced Pages articles like Chemtrail conspiracy theory and Fairy. Most people agree that those things are not real, and that's explained in the articles, but they've been written about enough to meet the notability requirements for Misplaced Pages articles. — Mudwater 09:42, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

@Anastrophe: You are misinterpreting the comparison I made. You are also, yet again, addressing an irrelevant point. It is irrelevant because I have not objected to the article on the basis of the positions it represents. That argument will be had in other forums, where it can be thrashed out ad nauseam. Please do not refer to it again as I did not say anything about it. It is not the basis of my objection. If you wanted to include it in the article about US gun politics, I would have no objection because that is its sole context.

@Mudwater: Yes, I did read that, thanks. I also note that it is classed as "counterfactual history" but I'm still unconvinced that it makes the article worthy of inclusion. Do we also have other articles about the supposed use of gun control in the Soviet Union and how the presence of privately owned guns might have stopped Stalin, for example? My point is, yet again, that without proper historical context, it serves no purpose other than to misinform (even if not deliberately). Now, to be fair to you, I do understand that the article makes it clear that the claim is not accepted but again, that is not my complaint. The problem is that counterfactual history can include just about anything. There is no article about what might have happened if Nazi Germany had acquired an atomic bomb, for example, or if WWII had gone on into 1946. Yet there have been whole books written on both subjects. I would also say that the article should be titled Nazi gun control claim" instead of theory. Theory is established from testing hypothesis, so it doesn't actually qualify as a theory at all. Flanker235 (talk) 11:59, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

There is a practical reason why this article exists. Per WP:FRINGE, oddball ideas should not be given excessive space in articles about mainstream topics. This material was moved from Gun politics in the U.S. so that that article could focus on legitimate topics. There was a big Arbitration Committee hearing on just this matter. I believe it endorsed this approach. So having this material squestered here provides advocates a place to cover it without putting it back into the more mainstream articles. Felsic2 (talk) 21:50, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Okay but this is part of my complaint: that it belongs in the US gun politics thread because that is its only relevance. I don't agree that it's worthy of inclusion on its own. Now, I'm not silly enough to think that is enough to force a change but it highlights the contextual irrelevance of a second article. When you say an arbitration committee hearing, are you saying that it was discussed at Wikis admin level? Flanker235 (talk) 09:13, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gun control. Search for "nazi". There are also a number subsidiary pages and talk pages. Felsic2 (talk) 15:35, 28 July 2016 (UTC) And don't miss these: Felsic2 (talk) 15:36, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Okay, thank you very much. it looks as though most my concerns - though not all - have been addressed in the arbitration hearing. I can't say I agree with the judgement but Wiki will do what Wiki decides and I guess I just have to accept that. Flanker235 (talk) 13:54, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Russian Pogroms

I know this will never make it to the article itself, due to Misplaced Pages's oppression of all which doesn't line up with Misplaced Pages's "party line" (similar to how in the Soviet Union everything that did not line up with the Communist Party of the Soviet Union's official "party line" was erased), but this parallel might be interesting for somebody:

In the pre-Soviet Russia, citizens had the right to wear ANY KIND of gun (what is called "concealed weapons" now in the US). It's a well-known fact that many women in Russia had small handguns in their purses, particularly Brownings (due to its small size). There were practically no restriction to carry any weapon in Russia, whatsoever, before 1917. Handgun advertisements were in every household magazine and newspaper in Russia.

Now, read the Misplaced Pages article on the Jewish "pogroms" in pre-Soviet Russia. Jews there formed civil units of self-defense, armed with handguns, which were not prohibited in Russia. These units were obviously not endorsed in any way by the "anti-semitic" (as the Misplaced Pages claims) Russian government. On the opposite, the Misplaced Pages's point of view is that the Russian government facilitated atrocities against the Jews (it's a lie, but this is not the point now).

As a result, in several of the "pogroms" (according to Misplaced Pages, and according to the Jewish authors) there were more attackers killed by the Jewish self-defence units than there were victims of these pogroms. This was obviously thanks to the Jews having hand guns, while the attackers were mobsters, armed with sticks and stones at best. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.161.123.243 (talk) 03:38, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

Edit reverted

Drmies reverted my 03:15, 12 August 2016‎ edit in relation to a quote by Richard Lutz and wrote the following: "who is this? non-notable person, not cited with appropriate secondary source". I have addressed Drmies issue relating to identifying the author by noting that Lutz is the "director of the Human Rights Coalition (Australia)" rather than just asserting that he is a "human rights activist".

As to the issue of a secondary source, there is nothing on the 'Misplaced Pages:Citing sources' page that mandates the use of a secondary source, while much of the information in Misplaced Pages does not have a secondary source. If Drmies wishes to delete the comment again s/he must give a legitimate reason and obtain consensus before reverting. If not I will have an Administrator intervene and if necessary take it to Misplaced Pages’s Arbitration Committee. CodeBadger (talk) 04:48, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

While primary sources are allowed, you need to establish the weight of the opinions expressed in secondary sources. TFD (talk) 07:58, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Where does it state in a Misplaced Pages policy that one must "establish the weight of the opinions expressed in secondary sources"? I think it a little odd that you made no reference to a Misplaced Pages policy in relation to your assertion, so you can do me and other editors/readers the courtesy of providing it. CodeBadger (talk) 01:32, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

This is a common and accepted position on Misplaced Pages, and the art of editing is knowing what to leave out. Misplaced Pages is not a bureaucracy, so issues like this are established by discussion and consensus. There are several specific pages that help explain why this quote isn't appropriate, WP:DUE being the one that jumps to mind first. Another issue is that this essentially a self-published source (WP:SPS), since it's sourced to Lutz's foundation with no indication of outside editing or oversight. As I said below, I'm concerned this site doesn't meet Misplaced Pages's guidelines for reliable sources. Grayfell (talk) 01:50, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Grayfell is unable to reference any policy or guideline to justify his or her assertion that one must "establish the weight of the opinions expressed in secondary sources", so resorts to a self-serving assertion in relation to what he or she thinks is a "common and accepted position". What a joke. Now Grayfell likens the quote by Lutz to those made by deranged extremists like those who assert that the Jews were behind the 9/11 attacks by referencing WP:DUE, such is the contempt that this editor has for other editors/readers. To make matters worse, Grayfell attempts to play the reliable sources card by asserting that the organization that published the comment by Lutz is not a reliable source. What next? A note from Grayfell's mother asserting that comment's that Grayfell does not like should be deleted from Misplaced Pages? Or perhaps sockpuppets agreeing with his or her position? CodeBadger (talk) 02:32, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Agreed, and that quote seems too long as well. What is the Human Rights Coalition or Human Rights Coalition (Australia), also? Is that a known, established group? Otherwise naming it is no better than just saying "human rights activist". It's actually potentially worse, since it's used to imply authority. Grayfell (talk) 08:06, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

It Seems a little odd that Grayfell wants the identity of the author revealed, but then decides that this is worse because "it's used to imply authority". Editors/readers who want to find out more about the Human Rights Coalition (Australia) can visit their website (http://hrc-australia.org/), not try to find out more via the dead links that Grayfell provided. Grayfell might like to create a Misplaced Pages page about this group rather than provide dead links to non-existent Misplaced Pages pages about this group, though I suspect that he or she would oppose the creation of such a page as it would be used to "imply authority" to opinions expressed by members of this organization that Grayfell opposes.

Wow. You are going about this the wrong way if you want to change the article. There are real people on the other side of that screen, so why are you talking like that? Who, exactly, are you talking to? Are you willing to having a discussion with us? If so, you should talk to us, not past us. We're trying to explain where we're coming from to build consensus. I linked to a Misplaced Pages policy that I thought was relevant. That it mentions WP:FRINGE ideas was not the main point, and was not intended as a personal threat. If you continue with the personal insults and other aggressive behavior, you're unlikely to accomplish the changes you're suggesting. I didn't ask you to reveal the author's identity, that was one of the other two editors who are trying to explain the problems with your edits. Mind the signatures, and be WP:CIVIL. Being civil is a policy I am directly referencing, by the way. Grayfell (talk) 03:32, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply Grayfell. Much appreciated. You made some excellent points in your edit that gave me pause to reflect. I apologise for being too aggressive. I’ll have to take my medication before I respond to edits that get me excited. I’ve also been stressed lately after a loved one passed away and have been overreacting to all manner of things sad to say.

I was upset to find that the comments relating to me edit seemed unreasonable when TFD (with your subsequent support) wrote: “you need to establish the weight of the opinions expressed in secondary sources”, as there was no Misplaced Pages policy that I was aware of to this effect and there appear to be countless examples of quotes being included in Wiki pages without the weight of the opinion being established by secondary sources, and subsequently took other comments negatively.

On reflection I accept the desirability of secondary sources to give weight to a primary source in some instances, notably facts or opinions which run counter to the consensus and/or common sense; though in this instance the quote by Lutz was not counter to the common sense consensus articulated in the ‘Reaction and opposition’ section that the proposition by some pro-gun advocates that Jews could have stopped the Holocaust but for Nazi gun laws was manifestly false.

The quote by Lutz supports the common sense consensus articulated by history professor Alan E. Steinweis who wrote (in the ‘Reaction and opposition’ section) that the Jews could not have stopped the Holocaust even if they had firearms as they “constituted less than 1 percent of the country’s population”. Lutz wrote much the same by asserting that the Jews could not have stopped the Holocaust even if armed as they “only constituted a tiny disorganized minority in Europe.”

Another point that Lutz and Steinweis agree on is the common sense consensus that the general population would not have risked their lives protecting Jews even if armed as most Germans despised them or were entirely indifferent to their fate as they were perceived as aliens. That said, the Nazis (who only received a third of the vote in general elections) were clearly concerned about a revolt by anti-Nazi anarchists, democrats, liberals, leftists and nationalists and acted accordingly.

The quote by Lutz affirms the common sense consensus by all rational actors that the Nazis restricted gun ownership to “reliable” people (a verifiable fact) to prevent an uprising that could have been prompted by their destruction of democracy or the mass murder of minorities. Many Germans did not much care for Jews, but opponents of the Nazis could have exploited popular discontent with Nazi policy failures or atrocities to organize a revolt.

An armed civilian revolt might not have succeeded against the Nazi militias (SA and SS), but was far more likely to occur if anti-Nazi anarchists, democrats, liberals, leftists and nationalists had ready access to firearms; while the people staging a revolt may have calculated that the German Army would have refused to help the Nazis or even joined the revolt upon seeing civilians being slaughtered by the SA and SS on German streets.

Upon reflecting on the Lutz quote it strikes me that it strayed into soapbox territory by including his position that widespread gun ownership serves as a democratic safeguard so long as the general population is committed to defending democracy and minorities. This is outside the scope of the ‘Reaction and opposition’ section which is about refuting the proposition that Nazi gun laws facilitated the Holocaust, so should be deleted.

Likewise, his comments relating to the Nazis only gaining one third of the popular vote and forming a coalition government are not appropriate in the ‘Reaction and opposition’ section which relates specifically to Nazi gun laws, not the electoral success of the Nazi Party, thus is not appropriate in this section and rightly deleted. People who want to find out more about the history of this party can visit the Misplaced Pages page about it.

As to your concern about the Human Rights Coalition (Australia) being a reliable source, one only has to visit this group’s website to find it is a small Australian group that has been around since 1997, not a large transnational organization like Human Rights Watch or Amnesty International. A look at its projects webpage revealed that it is involved in a wide range of issues ranging from child marriage to wars of aggression.

You were rightly concerned about the length of the Lutz quote as it does seem ludicrously long relative to the other quotes. It is now much shorter after having removed the above noted information that was not relevant to the ‘Reaction and opposition’ section. It is now slightly shorter than the quote by history professor Alan E. Steinweis. I welcome any comments by you and other editors/readers. Thank you for taking the time to read this comment. 03:10, 14 August 2016 (UTC) CodeBadger (talk) 03:12, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

ABBREVIATED EDIT

In August 2016, Richard Lutz, who is the director of the Human Rights Coalition (Australia), wrote:

It is farcical for gun rights advocates to assert that Jewish civilians could have stopped the Holocaust if only they had ready access to firearms as they only constituted a tiny disorganized minority in Europe, though some able-bodied Jewish adults and youths would undoubtedly have been able to put up more resistance as in the case of the Bielski partisans. The primary goal of Nazi gun laws was to ensure that only “reliable” people like Nazi Party members had guns in order to help prevent an uprising by the general population after it murdered democracy or began murdering civilians they deemed “enemies” of the German people. An uprising that the German Army may have refused to put down or even have supported.(27)

27. Lutz, Richard (August 2016). "Nazi Gun Laws" (PDF). Human Rights Coalition (Australia). Retrieved 2016-08-12.

CodeBadger, the policy is "Due and undue weight": "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources." I paraphrased it as one must "establish the weight of the opinions expressed in secondary sources." You provided a link to it above. TFD (talk) 03:51, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply and the link to the ‘Due and undue weight’ policy. This policy rightly asserts that one should fairly represent all significant supported sources in proportion to their prominence and exclude unsupported views by a minority, just as one should exclude any views that were not relevant to the subject matter.

Upon reflecting further on the Lutz quote I believe it should be shortened further by deleting the second half of the paragraph which relates to Lutz’s contentious assertion that the primary goal of Nazi gun laws was to “prevent an uprising by the general population”, as this appears to be an unsupported minority view that is in any case outside the scope of the ‘Reaction and opposition’ section that is about refuting the claim that Nazi guns laws were a key factor in facilitating the Holocaust. The amended quote is below. I hope this is more to your liking and would appreciate any comments you are willing to make. CodeBadger (talk) 05:41, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

In August 2016, Richard Lutz, who is the director of the Human Rights Coalition (Australia), wrote:

It is farcical for gun rights advocates to assert that Jewish civilians could have stopped the Holocaust if only they had ready access to firearms as they only constituted a tiny disorganized minority in Europe, though some able-bodied Jewish adults and youths would undoubtedly have been able to put up more resistance as in the case of the Bielski partisans.(27)

27. Lutz, Richard (August 2016). "Nazi Gun Laws" (PDF). Human Rights Coalition (Australia). Retrieved 2016-08-12.

It still does not meet the weight requirement. You need to establish the degree of support his opinion has in the literature which is done by consulting secondary sources. If you do that it would make more sense to use secondary sources so that you can say something like, "The view that had Jews been armed they could have stopped the Holocaust has little support among scholars." Incidentally, the article is about the German law, while Lutz writes about European Jews. Over 95% of Holocaust victims were from outside Germany. TFD (talk) 08:13, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply TFD. Although the Lutz quote refers to European Jews under Nazi control rather than just Jews in Germany, in both cases the Jews were a tiny minority while Jews in Nazi occupied nations in Europe were also subject to Nazi gun control laws that banned Jews owning guns, thus the quote is relevant. I thought the following might be more to your liking and would follow the quote by history professor Alan E. Steinweis, thus the final comment in the ‘Reaction and opposition’ section. The Lutz quote is in keeping with the comments by Nuckols and Steinweis that Jews could not have stopped the Holocaust even if they had ready access to firearms. Cheers. CodeBadger (talk) 04:27, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

The view that had Jews been armed they could have stopped the Holocaust not only has little support among legal scholars like Mark Nuckols(3) and historians like Allan E. Steinweis,(5) it also has little support among human rights activists like Richard Lutz who wrote: “It is farcical for gun rights advocates to assert that Jewish civilians could have stopped the Holocaust if only they had ready access to firearms as they only constituted a tiny disorganized minority in Europe, though some able-bodied Jewish adults and youths would undoubtedly have been able to put up more resistance as in the case of the Bielski partisans.”(26)

3. Nuckols, Mark (January 31, 2013). "Why the 'Citizen Militia' Theory Is the Worst Pro-Gun Argument Ever". The Atlantic. The Atlantic Monthly Group. Retrieved 2016-08-19.

5. Steinweis, Alan (October 14, 2015). "Ben Carson Is Wrong on Guns and the Holocaust". The New York Times. Retrieved 2016-03-15.

26. Lutz, Richard (August 2016). "Nazi Gun Laws" (PDF). Human Rights Coalition (Australia). Retrieved 2016-08-21.

Repeated Censorship by users Grayfell, 99.242.108.55, et.al

The concept behind an encyclopedia, as we all know, is to provide a synopsis of all of the most important information about whatever person, thing, place or idea each article within the encyclopedia is about. Why then does this article seem to primarily consist of attempts to ridicule the theory that the article is about, or to insult the theorists? The answer, is censorship. Censors are apparently constantly monitoring this page, and whenever anyone makes any contribution that explains the reasoning behind Nazi Gun Control Theory, or communicates the views of the theory's proponents, their contributions are immediately removed and disregarded as non-neutral, even though the whole article is heavily biased against the theory that the article is supposed to be explaining. This issue has been reported to several administrators. As a reminder, Failing to maintain a neutral point of view, by failing to include the various perspectives on the theory that the article is about, especially the views of the creators of the theory that the article is about, is a violation of Misplaced Pages's policies and grounds for banishment.

The following are the proposed edits that were most recently censored. More material explaining the historical context in which Nazi Gin Control policies were established are being prepared, but I would like to resolve this issue of censorship first, before we move beyond the article's introduction.

Here is a link to the diff for these proposed edits (see the column on the right) : https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Nazi_gun_control_theory&diff=735577968&oldid=735565790

Here are the the proposed edits:

According to Nazi Gun Control theory, the gun regulations enforced by the Third Reich rendered all of the citizens of the occupied territories in Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Denmark, Norway, Russia, the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, and France, the opponents of the Nazi ideology within Germany, the Jewish peoples across occupied Europe, and the victims of the Holocaust weaker to such an extent that they could have more effectively resisted oppression if they had been armed or better armed. More broadly, the theory views Hitler's Gun Control policies across all of the territories occupied by Nazi forces as a strategic military tactic designed to suppress dissent/acts of civil disobedience and to either prevent or rapidly crush any and all uprisings that might be waged by the conquered peoples, even when those uprisings/acts of civil disobedience/dissent were clearly justified.

Proponents of Nazi Gun Control Theory consider Nazi Gun Control policies as having been instrumental to the expansion and maintenance of the Nazi Party's military, political and social domination within the Nazi Reich and the occupied territories (France, Poland, etc.) , as well as in the concentration camps, not just in a hypothetical way that cannot be tested or proven, but in a factual way that is readily apparent in the history of the rise and fall of the Nazi regime and of other similar regimes. Nazi Gun Control can and should be compared with the conduct, strategy, intent and outcome of gun and arms control policies during earlier military occupations and/or tyrannical governments throughout history, several of which are described in greater detail below, including but not limited to Roman, Egyptian, Spanish, Japanese and British military invasions and occupations, all of which prohibited the vast majority of the people whom they conquered and ruled over against their will and by force from bearing arms, in most cases for very similar reasons. The impacts of these arms control policies on both the tyrannical governments' regimes and on those who sought independence from tyrannical governments and the restoration of their rights to freedom and self-government are very well studied and well understood by both modern and ancient military and political scientists and leaders alike. Opponents see Nazi gun control theory as "counterfactual history", which is a form of history that attempts to answer "what if" questions known as counterfactuals.

Some commentators say this theory is prevalent and primarily used within U.S. gun politics. Others see Nazi Gun Control Theory as existing within a broader history of arms control policies enacted by tyrannical, imperialistic, occupying, and/or slave-holding governments, which is the view of those who originally developed the theory. Questions about its validity, and about the motives behind its inception, have been raised by scholars. Proponents in the United States have used it as part of a "security against tyranny" argument, while opponents have referred to it as a form of Reductio ad Hitlerum. On the other hand, an invocation of Hitler or Nazism is not a Reductio ad Hitlerum when it illuminates the argument instead of causing distraction from it, as it appears the vast majority of Americans would argue is the case with Nazi Gun Control Theory, since 65% of Americans believe that the right to bear arms is an effective guarantee of their liberty and an effective deterrent against the establishment of a tyrannical government (such as Hitler's Nazi Reich) within the United States. Various mainstream sources describe the theory as historically "dubious", "questionable", "preposterous," "tendentious", and "problematic". Various other mainstream sources consider the theory not only entirely plausible, but factual, and extremely important to the fate of human civilization, perhaps even essential to the survival of freedom and democracy.

Background and formation

The Architect of Nazi Gun Control Policy, Reich Fuhrer Adolph Hitler, had this to say about his motives, intentions and strategy as it pertained to Gun Control within the Nazi Reich and the occupied territories across Europe:

"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the supply of arms to the underdogs is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let's not have any native militia or native police. German troops alone will bear the sole responsibility for the maintenance of law and order throughout the occupied Russian territories, and a system of military strong-points must be evolved to cover the entire occupied country."

Few citizens owned, or were entitled to own firearms in Germany in the 1930s (although virtually all male military age German supporters of Nazism were drafted into the Nazi army, issued a gun and given orders to strip all non-supporters of Nazism of their liberty, including their right to bear arms and their right to self defense, which would not have been possible without overwhelming force of arms). The Weimar Republic had strict gun control laws. When the Third Reich gained power, some aspects of gun regulation were loosened, such as allowing ownership for Nazi party members and the military. The laws were tightened in other ways. Nazi laws disarmed "unreliable" persons, especially Jews, but relaxed restrictions for "ordinary" German citizens. The policies were later expanded to include the confiscation of arms in occupied countries.

1. ^ Cite error: The named reference Knox2009p286 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
2. Appian, Civil Wars, 1:116
3. Eugene D. Genovese, Roll, Jordan, Roll: The World the Slaves Made, New York: Vintage Books, 1976, p. 592
4. Aristotle, "The Constitution of Athens"
5. "Manifesto of Umkhonto we Sizwe" African National Congress. 16 December 1961. Archived from the original on 17 December 2006. Retrieved 30 December 2006.
6. Halbrook, Stephen; "How the Nazis Used Gun Control"
7. Richmond, Robert P (1971). Powder Alarm 1774. Princeton, NJ: Auerbach.
8. Herodotus, "The Histories"
9. Julius Caesar, Commentaries of the Gallic Wars, Book VI.88
10. Gandhi, Mohandas K. "Mahatma", An Autobiography: The Story of My Experiments with Truth, tr. Mahadev Desai, Part V., Ch. XXVII
11. ^ Cite error: The named reference Kohn2004p187 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
12. Knox, Neal (2009)."The Gun Rights War: Dispatches from the Front Lines 1966 - 2000" Phoenix, Arizona: MacFarlane. p. 286. ISBN 9780976863304.
13. Cite error: The named reference TPM130109 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
14. Gabriel H. Teninbaum, Reduction ad Hitlerum: Trumping the Judicial Nazi Card. Michigan State Law Review, Vol. 2009, p. 541-578, 2009
15. Rasmussen Reports Poll: "65% See Gun Rights As Protection Against Tyranny"
16. Cite error: The named reference Nuckols130131 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
17. ^ Cite error: The named reference Harcourt2004 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
18. Steinweis, Alan (October 14, 2015). "Ben Carson Is Wrong on Guns and the Holocaust". The New York Times. Retrieved 2016-03-15.
19. Cite error: The named reference Bryant-HolocaustImagery was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
20. Dr. Ablow, Keith,"Why Ben Carson is Right about Jews, the Holocaust and Guns FoxNews.com 2015
21. Adolf Hitler, dinner talk on April 11, 1942, quoted in Hitler's Table Talk 1941-44: His Private Conversations, Second Edition (1973), Pg. 425-426. Translated by Norman Cameron and R. H. Stevens.
22. "Statistics and Numbers". www.feldgrau.com. Retrieved 2015-05-16.
23. Alex Seitz-Wald (January 11, 2013). "The Hitler gun control lie". salon.com. Retrieved 2013-01-19.
24. Cite error: The named reference Halbrook2000 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

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