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::: OK, so you want me to delete everything you've added that uses a source before 1925? You're the one who cited Max Müller. I assume since you're an expert in Indology, you know when Müller was working? ] (]) 21:28, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
::: OK, so you want me to delete everything you've added that uses a source before 1925? You're the one who cited Max Müller. I assume since you're an expert in Indology, you know when Müller was working? ] (]) 21:28, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
{{od}}
@Tarchon: The Jain claim of Rishabhanatha inventing writing is not equivalent to he inventing the Brahmi script or particular Lipi(s). I asked for the specifics for the Jain Agama(s) you mentioned above. I will try to locate and read that Agama and secondary scholarship on it, if you can identify it, and may be we can then summarize something in this article from it. If you don't have the time to do so, don't worry. I am fine with Muller and Hultzsch being mentioned in this article, along with all the other sources, but I am not fine with "chop it all out and wholly rely on Hultzsch" as you suggest above because Hultzsch is a 1925 source. We shouldn't ignore the rest of scholarship, nor disregard the scholarly reviews in the recent years, nor do OR in this article. ] (]) 21:49, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
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I mean, this is like Jainism 101. It's like asking me how I know Christians believe Jesus was a carpenter.
@Tarchon: There is interpolation concerns indeed for Unadisutras, but Muller is not saying Lipi part is interpolated, is he? If yes, where? I ask because I want us to avoid WP:OR of the WP:Synthesis variety. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 18:49, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
There's no way of telling for sure when something is interpolated, but obviously once you have multiple demonstrated interpolations, you have to take any chronology built off of it with a grain of salt, particularly when it's discussing a term that appears anachronistic on the face of it. If there was evidence of the use of "lipi" in early Vedic contexts, that would be one thing, but there's a reason why most commentators on the origins of writing in India cite Panini and the Pali canon as the earliest evidence of the term. I doubt if it's because they haven't read this note in the Corpus or don't have access to some dictionary of Sanskrit, it's because the date of the Unadi reference is subject to significant question. If you want to SYNTHESIZE Hultzsch with one cherry picked observation out of Müller about the date of the Unadisutras, I think I am completely justified in adding in the next five pages of the same source where he discusses the interpolations in it. My preference is to chop it all out and wholly rely on Hultzsch instead of having to explain why a reference in the Unadisutras isn't necessarily reliable for chronology, because if we do that, then we have to start explaining to the layman things like interpolations and chronology, but if you want to start arguing against Hultzsch's perfectly logical, thoroughly referenced, and widely accepted observation, the consensus view will get a fair chance to fight back.Tarchon (talk) 20:34, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
@Tarchon: Hultzsch is a 1925 source. Too old to be WP:HISTRS. Please do not ignore 90 years of scholarship that followed, nor assume that you are only one in the world who understands or knows epigraphy and history of Asian scripts. Our goal here to summarize the sources, not do OR. I am afraid you are lecturing and doing OR here, which is not what[REDACTED] is supposed to be. More specifically, since you can't identify where Max Muller states the "Lipi part is interpolated", but you imply that conclusion that neither Max Muller nor any other scholar makes, you may have inadvertently done OR here, which I will remove. Let us stick to[REDACTED] content guidelines. Quit lecturing. Just identify the page numbers from the reliable sources that are preferably recent, and then let us do our best to summarize those sources. If you have additional sources, I am willing to consider them and work with you to summarize them collaboratively. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 20:52, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
OK, so you want me to delete everything you've added that uses a source before 1925? You're the one who cited Max Müller. I assume since you're an expert in Indology, you know when Müller was working? Tarchon (talk) 21:28, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
@Tarchon: The Jain claim of Rishabhanatha inventing writing is not equivalent to he inventing the Brahmi script or particular Lipi(s). I asked for the specifics for the Jain Agama(s) you mentioned above. I will try to locate and read that Agama and secondary scholarship on it, if you can identify it, and may be we can then summarize something in this article from it. If you don't have the time to do so, don't worry. I am fine with Muller and Hultzsch being mentioned in this article, along with all the other sources, but I am not fine with "chop it all out and wholly rely on Hultzsch" as you suggest above because Hultzsch is a 1925 source. We shouldn't ignore the rest of scholarship, nor disregard the scholarly reviews in the recent years, nor do OR in this article. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 21:49, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
